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Do purists really exist?
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Dec 18 - 02:30 PM "Are you talking about performers or those preserving recordings and manuscripts?" EFDSS of course - Performers do what they do and that's the way is should be Iv'e already said how I heel about giving teh manuscripts priority "Gezz Lowe's, Brian Peters', Graham Miles, Vin Garbutt et al, songs any different in form or quality from Ewan's?" Quality is a matter of opinion; the form is so different I've also given my view on the necessity of making songs - but those you mentioned are nt those chosen to put on their site I wouldn't give any of them - Ewan's included, priority if it was a case of space A very fine former editor is also one of Britain;s leading collectors - how about putting some of his stuff up to show people what folk song is Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Dec 18 - 02:13 PM >>>>it's what we expect from those who hold responsible positions in preserving the music some of us have worked hard and long to preserve and make available<<< Are you talking about performers or those preserving recordings and manuscripts? Somewhat confusing. If you are talking about preserving, all of the institutions aforementioned are doing a marvellous job and need all the encouragement we can give. Just because they declined to take on your collection that doesn't mean they are not doing a good job. >>>>They are not entitled to pass something of as what it is most certainly not<<<< In many cases this is a matter of opinion. For instance are Gezz Lowe's, Brian Peters', Graham Miles, Vin Garbutt et al, songs any different in form or quality from Ewan's? OPINION. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Dec 18 - 01:48 PM "Jim Carroll - you really are an Unpleasant man." No I am not Tim - I have insulted no-one here other than the could of people who have insulted me - please go and check It's not a mater of having opinions, it's what we expect from those who hold responsible positions in preserving the music some of us have worked hard and long to preserve and make available People are entitled to like what they like (we all do that) They are not entitled to pass something of as what it is most certainly not - or maybe you are one of those who think it is? I have done my best to be polite here - happy to apologise for when I have not been Jim |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: RTim Date: 20 Dec 18 - 01:32 PM Jim Carroll - you really are an Unpleasant man......Despite all the good work you have done in the past - your present persona is not for me. I know I will be called names for this post - everyone who argues against you gets called names...but really Jim - let other people have opinions!! Tim Radford |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Dec 18 - 01:30 PM Try again EFDSS's top ten for Christmas? I'm intrigued! How do I find out what they are? |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Dec 18 - 01:29 PM EFDSS's top ten for Christmas |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Dec 18 - 01:22 PM "BTW regarding female singers, the breathies are very much in a minority." BTW - I was refering to EFDSS's top ten for Christmas Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Dec 18 - 01:21 PM Spent years working for EFDSS, salvaging vinyl BBC recordings from total be putting them onto tape, haping editing rapes which have now been deleted from the catalogue, helping to get The Carpenter Collection into The house.... and numerous other things Personally, I wouldn't put much credence on somebody irresponsible end unaware enough to think the stuff occupying space on the EFDSS website has anything to do with folksong No wonder the scene is in such a mess We're not talking about picking or rejecting what we like or don't like - were's talking about the stuff THE ENGLISH FOLK DANCE AND SONG SOCIETY IS PEDDLING AS FOLK SONG For a time I thought you were disagreeing with what I said about the scene, but you're doing a superb job of proving my point - an early Christmas Present, perhaps? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Dec 18 - 01:17 PM BTW regarding female singers, the breathies are very much in a minority. There really are many excellent young female singers out there, Eliza Carthy, Bryony Griffiths, Alice Jones, Laura Smyth, and lots of unsung local ones in my own immediate area of Yorkshire. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Dec 18 - 01:15 PM And the handy thing about folk clubs, Steve, is that they are often in a pub. Once you get to know who you like and who you don't, you can time your bar visits to perfection :-) |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Dec 18 - 01:07 PM I was a member of EFDSS from c65 to 70 and then dropped out as did many others as it had become a largely London-based dance club. Then in the late 70s along came a whole movement largely from the folk scene to make EFDSS more representative of song and music and the nation as a whole. I rejoined. I now am firm friends with the main backroom personnel at EFDSS who work extremely hard for no monetary gain, people like David Atkinson, Steve Roud, Laura Smyth, Bob Askew, Derek Schofield, Martina and Shan Graebe and lots of people from the folk scene, some on here, who regularly work with EFDSS on projects. Whilst everyone is entitled to an opinion I personally wouldn't put much store in the opinion of someone who rarely goes there and can't even be bothered to check out the marvellous work being done online. And quite frankly if someone is singing folksongs and attracting audiences I don't give a chuff how they are singing them. I can pick and choose the ones I like and ignore those I don't as everyone can. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Vic Smith Date: 20 Dec 18 - 12:50 PM I can in no way see how the EFDSS choice comes anywhere near that with the breathy 'little girl' voices and pseudo Mid-Atlantic accents that have taken over many of our folk clubs. I am not sure what the EFDSS can do about the way songs are sung in folk clubs not that I do not hear much in the way of "breathy 'little girl' voices and pseudo Mid-Atlantic accents" on my frequent visits to them. Whether you like them or not (immaterial) they no way meet what EFDSS should be about. As a fully paid up long-term member of EFDSS, I vote in their committee elections to chose those who I think are likely to further the health of traditional song, music and dance in England. On a number of occasions when I have disagreed with EFDSS policies, I have written to the EFDSS to complain. I have always had replies, normally from the CEO to address the issues. I am not sure that this has made any major changes but I am registering my views which is all an individual member can do. I take it that the person who is so unhappy with EFDSS is a member and is trying to effect change from the inside. I am not sure that complaints on Mudcat will reach the ears of EFDSS council members who are the ones who formulate the policies. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jeri Date: 20 Dec 18 - 12:35 PM On one hand, there are people who want to rule the world and define what "folk music" is for everyone. On the other hand, you have people who want to rule the world by letting those other guys set the agenda. So what drives them are the folks attempting to rule the world. Then there's that third parasitic twin's hand, where all threads default to McColl. I don't know where the other hand is. Why on earth does what other people think drive your happy car? Do whatever the fuck you want to do. Enjoy whatever the fuck you enjoy. When you start bending yourself into forms that will please other people, you're not really worth anyone's attention. Have fun! And I know full well that the actual "fun" people are having around here is fighting with a usual set of opponents about subjects that will never be resolved. Because people gotta sound their barbaric "YAWP", and it doesn't count unless there's an audience. Hello, internet. The purpose of the fight is to fight. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Dec 18 - 12:32 PM For those wishing to access recordings of source singers there are already numerous excellent recordings out there produced by many commercial companies such as Topic (Voice of the People for example) Fellside, Veteran, Musical traditions. To then place these on the internet for free would put these excellent companies out of business. Is that what you want? There are also freely available many recordings of traditional singers freely available on the BL Sound Archive website. I'm not too keen myself but is putting on a Mid-Atlantic accent any different to a Salford lad putting on a Scottish accent? |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Vic Smith Date: 20 Dec 18 - 12:15 PM Tobar an Dualchais does a lot better. You are not comparing like with like, Jack. Tobar an Dualchais is an incomparable site for sound recordings Full English concerns itself with manuscript sources - field notebooks, diaries, photographs etc. Neither has completed anything more than a small percentage of the task that they have set themselves. The London database is only few years old, the Edinburgh one is a much older and the material has been accumulating ever since the School of Scottish Studies was founded in the 1940s. An answer to my recent enquiry about the Goldstein/Cameron & Jane Turriff recordings told me that the SoSS have copies of Kenny Goldstein tapes which are not yet available on TaD and they are not likely to be. The originals are lodged with the University of Mississippi and are actually on-line, but only accessible to those who have the pass and that seems to be restricted to members of U of M Staff! I recently contacted U of M asking for permission to listen to the Turriff tapes to compare with recordings I made of them myself of them in 1971 and was given permission to listen to them only! They are just lovely - but where as Edinburgh would give free permission to listen to these but Mississippi - citing ownership and copyright issue would not - so you can see the dilemma. Another difference is funding, As an academic institution SoSS can maintain their tapes and recordings even though cuts have meant that the digitisation and transcriptions are now progressing much more slowly. The EFDSS finds planning much more difficult because although UK government and Lottery funding did make 2 or 3 quite generous fundings, the annual funding application makes things like employing staff a much more hazardous thing. Progress with 'Full English' therefore is much less predictable. This makes their claim which I quotes above that 'Full English' is "the world’s largest online collection of English folk manuscripts." all the more admirable. Tobar an Dualchais includes a small number of recordings by Peter Cook and by Ailie Munro of my singing.... just saying! |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Dec 18 - 11:35 AM "Surely this is an opinion rather than a factual statement? " Based on the present state of things, it seems common sense to me "It would appear that 'Full English' considers song-makers as part of its ambit." Couldn't argue with that if what they chose to represent folk music in any way resembled it Ewan chose to create using traditional forms - he wasn't a singer-songwriter (in the way that term is now used) - he was a singer of traditional songs who used the songs he sand to crate new ones I can in no way see how the EFDSS choice comes anywhere near that with the breathy 'little girl' voices and pseudo Mid-Atlantic accents that have taken over many of our folk clubs Whether you like them or not (immaterial) they no way meet what EFDSS should be about I know The Library has a reasonable collection of source singers and could lay their hands on may more with very little effort Malcolm and I worked our way through The Hamer Collection to produce a Library cassette (now unavailable) and only had room for a few of them As far as song-making is concerned, if they can't gain permission to use some of the good songmakers creating in traditional styles, they may as well leap onto their camels and ride off into the desert Peggy had no problems at all when she produced her 20 volumes of New City Songster Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: GUEST,Jack Campin Date: 20 Dec 18 - 11:23 AM It's one of those sites where your only real way in is via a search box - no thesaurus structure you can browse. I tried as a test to see if they had any media recording bhangra. The search got me to a report of a schools project in Croydon that EFDSS took part in, but there are no sound files or videos of the material they mention. I then tried to find what they had of Mary Neal (there must be film, surely?) but got a stack of library records with no content accessible outside the C#H building. Tobar an Dualchais does a lot better. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Vic Smith Date: 20 Dec 18 - 10:28 AM Manuscripts are for the already committed Vic Surely this is an opinion rather than a factual statement? I would reckon that manuscripts and sound recordings each have their own validity according to the nature of the enquiry. Just been searching the 'Full English' EFDSS site, all I could find was the Youth Choir, Mike Norris playing a jolly tune.... Would it be possible to give the 'Full English' reference number to these two categories as I cannot find them by completing a 'Full English' search. and a number of dire snigger snogwriters It would appear that 'Full English' considers song-makers as part of its ambit. For example, if you were to try to search for a snigger called Ewam MacColl, you would find there are 101 references to him as an important author and collector..... and as a snogwriter. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Dec 18 - 09:13 AM Manuscripts are for the already committed Vic - hardly what is needed in the present circumstances I know from long experience that the VWML has a small but good sound collection and is in a position to expand that considerably with a little interest and effort THe pathetic offerings are a waste of space and, as far as the songwriters - a damaging one That is not what English folk song is about (I hope) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Vic Smith Date: 20 Dec 18 - 09:01 AM From https://www.efdss.org/efdss-the-full-english
Full English has a very user friendly 'search' facility which will give positive finds to virtually every major name in English traditional dance and song. It continues to expand at an impressive rate and has an increasing number of volunteer transcribers working on a wide range of song and dance manuscripts. It is freely available to everyone. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Dec 18 - 08:24 AM Just been searching the 'Full English' EFDSS site, all I could find was the Youth Choir, Mike Norris playing a jolly tune and a number of dire snigger snogwriters Library still looks as crammed as it was, so I can assume they are still turning down collections I may not have got the hang of the site, but really !! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Dec 18 - 04:50 AM If you feel a great passion to communicate your love of this kind of folk music, and i think you do. Why not start a website explaining what it means to you. That's the beauty of the internet. You don't need some git deciding whether you can publish, or not. Its not all sweetness and light. i worked for ages on a website on my oevre of song writing and the life that had produced it. A chance remark from some big mouthed cunt on Mudcat led to me discontinuing it. And the providers are not really on your side - its a labour of love. But some people will click on a link - even if they won'tplay a cd nowadays. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Dec 18 - 04:48 AM Yes, Jim. Once again, I consider it a win for me, ie a good result, if I go to a show or club and enjoy over 90% the songs. Nothing whatsoever to do with winning any sort of fight. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Dec 18 - 04:39 AM "I see that as a win!" J |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Dec 18 - 04:26 AM The discussion is not a win/lose thing, Jim. Once again you are misrepresenting what was said. I consider it a win for me, ie a good result, if I go to a show or club and enjoy over 90% the songs. What we are discussing here is the number of clubs that are putting on folk music as opposed to non folk. I think that at over 90% of clubs in the UK you have a better than 90% chance of hearing a lot of good quality folk music. You believe it to be considerably less. We will never agree on the proportion but we can agree that there is good and bad everywhere. Let's leave it at that. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Dec 18 - 04:09 AM "People talk about and remember the bad while keeping quiet and forgetting about the good" Not sure what you are saying Dave - I'm certainly not disagreeing, uniess you are suggesting that I'm only imagining the situation because I only remember the bad ones - that would be very patronising of you How does it prove that All's well ? I'm talking about 1 concert here which I know I enjoyed That is not my experience with the clubs, especially as I have trawled the web to see whats on offer - a handful of passable to reasonable the rest, well.... Clubs I have vited with young ladies doing "Dylan reprises" in breathy voices, introspective singer songwriters serenading their guitars... very little else "But if over 90% of songs sung are good, I see that as a win! ON ONE ****** EVENING - sort of like having to fly to Yorkshire for a good night I am appalled this turned into a "win-lose" thing" - you really do disappoint me I'm off while we're still friends Jim |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Dec 18 - 03:49 AM I remember clearly what she finished the evening on, I cannot for the life of me remember what else was sung that night. Thanks for confirming my point, Jim. People talk about and remember the bad while keeping quiet and forgetting about the good. The last 2 songs out of, what, 30? soured your evening. It is a shame it happened to you but think about it. 2 songs out of 30 is less than 7%. So 93% of the songs could well have been what you expected. I call 93% a great majority. I can go to a concert or buy an album of someone I really like and there will be some songs I am not keen on. Maybe I am just lucky in being a glass half full instead of a glass half empty person.I I do sympathise with your view, honestly, and it is a shame that you feel let down. But if over 90% of songs sung are good, I see that as a win! |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Dec 18 - 03:39 AM I'm afraid there has been a blurring of the parameters of art. A lot of it has to do us becoming part of an international community. There are universities in some countries where Agatha Christie is considered a cultural heavyweight like Dickens. Its been coming on for fifty or sixty years. Byron, for example, whom we regard in our more generous moments as a second echelon romantic poet, in France - he is rated far above the rest of the boys in the band - Shelley, Wordsworth, Coleridge. We've got used to the idea. If John Williams, after a lifetime of selfless dedication, can not just countenance , but welcome the democratisarion of guitar playing. It tells us something about the nature of the world we live in. We don't appear to be folksingers. But we are. In three hundred years our communities will doubtless look as fucked up and brainless as when we watch The Tudors. We may not bang on goatskins and record our stories in thirty verse ballads - but we are of our time. Why wouldn't we use ipads for our folk music. Ipads are more integral to our communities than bloody goats. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Dec 18 - 02:53 AM "Really? You mean you've never looked at VWML online? I don't believe you!" I am well aware that at long last (how long has it been going?) EFDSS have made accessible its holdings I am referring to the club evenings we attended thare No apology forthcoming ""People can still go to folk clubs to hear 'folk songs reasonably well performed'. " And \I respnded and have done over and over again Tare are not enough of them to make a future for folk song viable and there never will be while people consider that to take folk song seriously is "purist" and believe serious argument to be insulting The development of both of these tendencies can be traced on this forum through terms like finger-in-ear and the particularly deplorable "folk fascist" It all boild down to what you consider is a "folk club" and "a good folk club" For me a folk club is a place where you are guaranteed to hear folk songs, a good one is where you can hear folk songs performed well enough to be enjoyed without worrying that the singer is in tune or has remembered the words or is involved in what hie or she is singing I stopped when all this ceased to be the case and what has gone on here has convinced me that little has changed. I don't want to have to send scouts ahead to find if a folk club does folk songs, but that's the case now and has been for a long time People on this forum in the past have argued here for poor standards, suggesting that to demand work and a degree of understanding and dedication is "elitist" We've had threads arguing for the use of crib-sheets and mobile phones, saying that to oppose them is to put of people is to exclude people - which, in my opinion, patronised the singer and insults the audience The 'anything goes" approach is highly supported, which assumes that anybody who wanted to listen to 'Lord Gregory' is going to be happy to sit through to 'Livin' Doll' or the 'Birdie Song' On this latter, some time ago I was taken to a convert of folk songs in Scotland by a friend -n the whole a highly enjoyable night until the star singer, whose singing I have always admired decided to finish the evening with two Cliff Richard songs I can never remember feeling so let down - while I remember clearly what she finished the evening on, I cannot for the life of me remember what else was sung that night. Despite the latest desk-jockey revisionism, our folk songs are unique - they stand apart form all other song forms as artistic creations and pieces of our social history and, because they do, they are as important as Shakespeare or Dickens or Haydn or Bechet... and that's what makes them both important and highly enjoyable if you take the time and trouble to listen If people haven't the time or inclination to thumb through the bools and manuscripts clearly labeled "folk" or "traditional", they can recognise the uniqueness of folk song by comparing it to other forms None of this is a criticism of the other forms - I happen to like song of them myself. If I choose to go out to hear any form of music - folk, jazz, blues, opera, swing.... I expect to be given what I am told I am going to get My own interests developed among people who fervently believed that folk forms could be used to create a new repertoire - that is still my position, but I respect those who want to listen to those who just choose to listen to folk songs on a night out and would be happy to join them occasionally - that may be 'purist' to some, but it's certainly not "boring", as has been suggested. For me, and apparently for many others, the club scene plummeted when clubs removed the right of people to choose what they want ed to listen to and decided that standards of performance weren't necessary. As a singer, I began to feel self-conscious that many of my songs didn't fit into evenings were I was able to sing - the number of venues where this wasn't the case got less and less so I and many like me stopped going Nothing I have seen here has persuaded me that that has improved in any way, or not enough to make a difference Finished here, I think - I have a load of work on folk song to get through while my memory and hearing holds out - I think I have got all I'm going to get Once again I find it very telling that nobody has shown the slightest interest in acquiring our recordings Jim |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 19 Dec 18 - 07:10 PM I purify, therefore I am. There you are, a little Cartesian logic sorts us all out. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Steve Gardham Date: 19 Dec 18 - 06:59 PM In case you missed it...AS WELL AS! |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Steve Gardham Date: 19 Dec 18 - 06:58 PM AS WELL AS......AS WELL AS.....AS WELL AS......AS WELL AS......AS WELL AS............ |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Dec 18 - 06:32 PM Blimey, reading this thread I'm glad I'm just a harmonica player. Wanna hear a nice set of polkas? |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Steve Gardham Date: 19 Dec 18 - 05:18 PM 'It can't sustain a solid base for its archives - the EFDSS one is non existent,' JC. Really? You mean you've never looked at VWML online? I don't believe you! Apology, please! |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Dec 18 - 03:48 PM Jim. your owwn statement about going to look for folk in village halls (Still not explained) It was explained in my previous post. In case you missed it, again, here it is. "People can still go to folk clubs to hear 'folk songs reasonably well performed'. They can also go to concert halls, village halls, community centres, festivals, pubs, house parties, and any number of venues where they can hear the same. Nowhere in there can it be interpreted that you cannot get good music at folk clubs. The exact reverse is the case. The concerts at other venue are not instead of, they are as well as. " I don't know how I can make it any plainer. Kenny. You are right of course. There is good and bad in everything. I accept that there is some bad but do not think there is a lot. I think Jim has to accept that there is some good but thinks there is not a lot of that. To put this in perspective we have had umpteen accounts of good folk clubs with plenty of evidence to back that up. We have had very few people saying things are bad and there has been no evidence to back that up at all. What are we to believe? The many who say things are fine, backed up by the media and hard evidence? Or those who say things are shite but will not back up that statement with any facts whatsoever? I know where my vote goes! |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: GUEST,kenny Date: 19 Dec 18 - 02:56 PM Do you really expect anyone to name "bad clubs", Dave ? Really ? I would expect that you and Jim are both right, there are clubs with a consistently high standard of performance, and the opposite. It's largely a question of how many there are of the former compared to the latter, and that figure will undoubtedly vary from person to person. It would also depend on the standard of performance a person is satisfied with. We're over 700 posts here now, and seem to have drifted from the original question. I think I'll stop now, better things to do. There's a really good set-dance, recorded by Angelina Carberry and Dan Brouder I must learn. Enjoy your music. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Dec 18 - 02:46 PM "That claim was the result of an investigation reported in the link I posted. Remember?" The wiki ling that couldn't distinguish between Dylan, soft rock singer songwriters and the real thing, you mean That's not a survey - it's a claim built on non-definition ignorance "and you have still not named any of the so called bad clubs so I can see for myself :" No I haven't nor will I - I have no intention of going to war with individual clubs "I have had a handful of bad experiences and said as much." I'm not basing my claims not only on the experionce of thousands of us who walked away and the arguments we have had here about "purists", "finger in ear" and your owwn statement about going to look for folk in village halls (Still not explained) "People can still go to folk clubs to hear 'folk songs reasonably well performed'." Didn't say they couldn't, but the ones being pointed out are in Yorkshire, Scotland and Sussex Rudeness and abuse gets threads closed - I have indulged in neither - tell those who have I have responded to every point made - the only club I mentioned as bad (and the only one I intend to) is the mess that calls itself a folk club in THE HEADQUARTERS OF THE ENGLISH FOLK DANCE AND SONG SOCIETY If they can't get it right - who can ? The don't even have a shop - now that's a sign that things aren't well, if anything is Jim |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Dec 18 - 01:14 PM ...and you have still not named any of the so called bad clubs so I can see for myself :-( This responding to points is not a one way street you know! |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Dec 18 - 01:06 PM Not sure why you brought up those terms in reference to me then, Jim, but if you were not suggesting I had used them then fairy nuff. I'm not claiming that the club scene plummeted and then revived. That claim was the result of an investigation reported in the link I posted. Remember? The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s, in the face of changing musical and social trends. In London Les Cousins in Greek Street, where John Renbourn often played, and The Scots Hoose in Cambridge Circus, were both casualties. The Singers Club (George IV, Lincoln's Inn) closed its doors in 1993. The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music and there are now over 160 folk clubs in the United Kingdom, including many that can trace their origins back to the 1950s I am not claiming that people who had bad experiences are telling lies. I have had a handful of bad experiences and said as much. It is just that they are not common. Remember the old adage? Get good service, you tell no one. Get bad service, you tell everyone. I am not discussing any other aspect but live folk music. It is all I know about. I don't know enough about the academic research to comment. The point you make about going elsewhere is where you misconstrued what I said. I was going to let it lie but seeing as you have brought it up, again, here is my exact phrease. People can still go to folk clubs to hear 'folk songs reasonably well performed'. They can also go to concert halls, village halls, community centres, festivals, pubs, house parties, and any number of venues where they can hear the same. Nowhere in there can it be interpretted that you cannot get good music at folk clubs. The exact reverse is the case. The concerts at other venue are not instead of, they are as well as. One thing we can agree on though. There is no point in continuing down this route. It is what gets threads closed. I am trying to say that there is a lot of good in the folk scene as it stands. You are resolutely saying it is rubbish. Those two viewpoints can seemingly never be reconciled. Maybe I am too easily pleased? At least that makes for a much more enjoyable life than looking for fault in everything. The offer of accomodation and chaufeur services still stands and I look forward to welcoming you one day and showing you the high spots of the Aire valley :-D Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Dec 18 - 11:38 AM "Terms that I have never used in earnest. Take that up with someone else." Sorry Dave, can't do that, it's far too common (go look at the title of the thread) You are the last person I want to fall out with I can't argue with your own experience any more than you can argue with mine Are you really claiming that the club scene plummeted and then revived Are you also claiming that those of u who had enough bad experiences to wak away didn't have those experiences I have given you what I expect from a folk club and believe no longer to be available in enough for the music to survive - I have also made a pointy about archives, access to archives, publications, albums... and all the other things that go to make a healthy scene, none of which you have responded to I said at the beginning that all I expected from a club was a night of folk songs reasonably sung - you told me I could no longer expect that from a club and would have to go elsewhere; now you appear to be saying that I can get if anywhere in Britain If that's not what you are saying you need to explain your "village hall" etc reference Unless you do we have nothing more to say to each other on the subject sadly Jim |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Dec 18 - 10:59 AM I should also add that you have not named any of the plethora of 'bad' clubs so I can visit and judge for myself. I have at least given at least half a dozen examples of folk clubs where you will get exactly what you are looking for in a folk club. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Dec 18 - 10:55 AM you've said that it happens around you, which doesn't even touch what's happening in the rest of Britain Between 1990 and 2010 I was in a job that took me all around the country and I was lucky enough to be able to book my own accommodation. One of the main criteria for booking a particular hotel was its proximity to a folk club and a lot of the time I was successful. I was not away every week and I did have repeat visits but I estimate that I visited folk clubs all over the country at least once a month for 20 years. That is approximately 240 visits. Many of the visits were to the same folk clubs (Bracknell, Leeds and Newcastle spring to mind as receiving multiple visits) but over the course of that 20 years I can count on one hand the number of times I was disappointed. Terms like "purist" and "finger-in-ear" Terms that I have never used in earnest. Take that up with someone else. You have not address my findings and the findings of others who said they waked away from a scene became as rare as Dodos and the standards abysmal Yes I have. See above. I fully accept that standards have slipped in some instances but can assure you that it is a rare occurrence rather than the norm. It is mentioned more because it is rare. Things going well do not make the news. Things going badly do. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Dec 18 - 10:40 AM "Yes, I can show that it is but only by inviting you to experience it." You haven't so far Dave - you've said that it happens around you, which doesn't even touch what's happening in the rest of Britain Terms like "purist" and "finger-in-ear" and the fact that we can't discuss the definition of folk song on this forum is a strong indicator that it ain't folk You have not address my findings and the findings of others who said they waked away from a scene became as rare as Dodos and the standards abysmal The decline in clubs, the arguments for not applying standards, the proliferation of crib-sheets as an indcation of people not bothering to learn words... and the many other examples appear to back up my case... the few you point to prove nothing really "you definitely misconstrued what I said " Not sure where - I definitely didn't misconstrue your saying that if I wished to be guaranteed to listen to folk songs I would have to go to festivals or concerts or village halls, which for me, sums up the whole problem For me this shows clearly that the club scene is in need of repair If I misconstrued anything else, it was accidental and I apologise Unless you address the points I made other than "come to Yorkshire" this will continue to be a circular argument I don't apologise for rubbing people up the wrong way and I doubt if they would apologise to me for doing likewise - at least, I hope not Jim |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Dec 18 - 09:38 AM If that is music is not folk music, it makes my point - if you can show it is, feel free I don't believe it is, and thereby hangs the problem Yes, I can show that it is but only by inviting you to experience it. Which I have done. Now, back at you, can you show that it isn't? As for insulting anyone. Well, I think you made some comments that rubbed people up the wrong way and you definitely misconstrued what I said but, what the heck, water under the bridge. I pointed out where it happened. It can still be seen and people can make up their own minds. No point in flogging it to death. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Dec 18 - 09:29 AM " more than acceptable to the vast majority of folk music fans" Very carefully worded Dave If that is music is not folk music, it makes my point - if you can show it is, feel free I don't believe it is, and thereby hangs the problem For the record, apart from Jack, I have insulted nobody here unless you regard criticism your clubs as "insulting (we never used to) I should not have responded to Jack the way I did, for which I apologise - I should have ignored him My offer will stand until I am convinced I am wasting my time Jim |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Dec 18 - 09:13 AM A healthy folk club scene has to feature a guarantee of hearing folk songs at clubs At the majority of folk clubs I can guarantee that the majority of songs that you hear will meet with your approval. I have put my money where my mouth is and I am sure a number of others will do the same. You have misinterpreted what a number of people have said, including me. I will try to make my argument quite clear. The vast majority of clubs and other venues (that showcase folk music) are promoting music that is more than acceptable to the vast majority of folk music fans. Feel free to disagree but, as yet, you have not come up with any proof of your 'anything goes' theory. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Dec 18 - 08:31 AM A healthy folk club scene has to feature a guarantee of hearing folk songs at clubs That is not the case and, from what I have seen and what I havee read here, that is long gone - (even you have confirmed that with your village hall, concerts and festivals suggestion) How can you possibly describe that as "healthy" ? Thish forum has been bombarded by descriptions of hostility towards traditional and unaccompanied "finger-in-ear songs in the past - things have not improved in any way and arguments like his only confirm that situation If you don't recognise there is a problem, that problem can only grow The heartbeat of our tradition lay in the clubs - now it appears to be on a life-support system Wahre are the albums of traditional songs now - where are the magazines we once had - where are the many thousands of clubs performing folk songs - where is the genuine and friendly interaction and discussion I and others experienced We can't nip down to the village hall to get any of this I am, at present, organising and annotating our collection in order to deposit it in an accessible form, to an Irish University World Music Center - If I thought there was any point, I would happily put aside a smaller archive of recordings of singers, song texts, articles on traditional song and music, recordings of workshops and seminars, radio programmes, examples of voice and relaxation exercises.... and donate it to any club, or group of clubs to be used as an encouragement to learn and understand our folk-song traditions Ive made similar offers in the past with no takers Think about it Jim |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Dec 18 - 08:06 AM That is where we must differ, Jim. You believe it is a handful of clubs that maintain a good standard. I know it is a lot more than a handful and evidence both here and elsewhere confirms that this is true. There are numerous good folk clubs out there and that is bolstered by the number of other venues that are now showcasing exceptionally good traditional music. There are of course clubs where the standard may not be as high as you would like but that is the nature of the beast. Not everything is everyone's cup of tea. But the vast majority of clubs and other venues are promoting music that is more than acceptable to the vast majority of folk music fans. We have presented the evidence that the 'folk scene' is thriving. Feel free to give us your evidence that it is otherwise. You have and are perfectly entitled to your opinion that the scene is either dead or dying, and the way it was deteriorating in the late 1970s and early 1980s is likely to have given that impression. But it has recovered and is now a force to be reckoned with once again. Your impression is wrong and my offer stands open for as long as you like. Feel free to pick any folk club within striking distance of Airedale and I will take you there as well so there is no question of me picking only clubs I know are good. |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Dec 18 - 07:17 AM My point remains Dave a handfull of clubs does not make for a healthy scene I've just given you my long-term view of what I believe needs to happen to keep folk song available for the future The state of the clubs has been displayed perfectly by the suggestion that anybody expecting to here folk songs performed reasonably well at a folk song is a purist - your really can't say clearer than that You and others have given excuses rather than reasons why the club scene has declined - we don't agree on that, but we do seem to agree that it has declined A basis to start an intelligent and friendly argument before Jack's insulting rudeness becomes an infection Jim |
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Subject: RE: Do purists really exist? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Dec 18 - 07:05 AM No problem, Jim. We all miss things sometimes. I hope it would prove that the 'folk scene' is as healthy and vibrant as I and a number of other people have suggested rather than the poor quality, struggling, dying animal that you seem to be suggesting. I am willing to be proved wrong but, to date, you have not offered any evidence that the folk music world in England is in such a poor shape. We can all find examples of good and bad but I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and say that there is far more good than bad. All the evidence on here points to that, as does my experience. |
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