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'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival

Vic Smith 28 Jun 11 - 04:48 PM
Richard Bridge 29 Jun 11 - 03:13 PM
Andy Jackson 29 Jun 11 - 05:21 PM
Vic Smith 30 Jun 11 - 05:12 AM
The Sandman 30 Jun 11 - 05:56 AM
ripov 30 Jun 11 - 06:02 AM
Vic Smith 30 Jun 11 - 06:48 AM
Vic Smith 30 Jun 11 - 06:54 AM
The Sandman 30 Jun 11 - 08:42 AM
GUEST,Frank Ingnobody 30 Jun 11 - 06:14 PM
Vic Smith 01 Jul 11 - 06:21 AM
Vic Smith 01 Jul 11 - 06:46 AM
Kevin Sheils 01 Jul 11 - 07:06 AM
Tattie Bogle 01 Jul 11 - 02:47 PM
Vic Smith 01 Jul 11 - 05:55 PM
The Sandman 01 Jul 11 - 05:58 PM
Tug the Cox 02 Jul 11 - 10:56 AM
Vic Smith 02 Jul 11 - 11:36 AM
Vic Smith 04 Jul 11 - 09:11 AM
Jon Boden 04 Jul 11 - 09:56 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 04 Jul 11 - 07:20 PM
Ruth Archer 04 Jul 11 - 07:21 PM
Ruth Archer 04 Jul 11 - 07:35 PM
SylviaN 05 Jul 11 - 03:17 AM
GUEST,FloraG 05 Jul 11 - 05:45 AM
Vic Smith 05 Jul 11 - 06:59 AM
GUEST,FloraG 05 Jul 11 - 10:04 AM
Herga Kitty 05 Jul 11 - 01:09 PM
The Sandman 05 Jul 11 - 06:09 PM
Steve Hunt 05 Jul 11 - 06:39 PM
The Sandman 06 Jul 11 - 12:06 AM
Steve Hunt 06 Jul 11 - 04:36 AM
Vic Smith 06 Jul 11 - 05:42 AM
Vic Smith 06 Jul 11 - 05:48 AM
The Sandman 06 Jul 11 - 06:29 AM
Steve Hunt 06 Jul 11 - 06:34 AM
The Sandman 06 Jul 11 - 07:19 AM
The Sandman 06 Jul 11 - 07:39 AM
Steve Hunt 06 Jul 11 - 07:45 AM
GUEST,FloraG 06 Jul 11 - 10:46 AM
Herga Kitty 06 Jul 11 - 07:35 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 06 Jul 11 - 07:43 PM
Herga Kitty 06 Jul 11 - 07:46 PM
Jim Martin 07 Jul 11 - 06:43 AM
Will Fly 07 Jul 11 - 09:09 AM
The Sandman 07 Jul 11 - 10:20 AM
Vic Smith 07 Jul 11 - 12:21 PM
The Sandman 07 Jul 11 - 01:41 PM
The Sandman 07 Jul 11 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,Clive Pownceby 08 Jul 11 - 09:13 AM
The Sandman 08 Jul 11 - 09:14 AM
The Sandman 08 Jul 11 - 09:20 AM
Vic Smith 08 Jul 11 - 09:34 AM
The Sandman 08 Jul 11 - 12:12 PM
Vic Smith 15 Jul 11 - 10:15 AM
Steve in Sidmouth 16 Jul 11 - 04:56 AM
Vic Smith 16 Jul 11 - 07:59 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 16 Jul 11 - 08:39 AM
Tug the Cox 16 Jul 11 - 08:28 PM
Tug the Cox 16 Jul 11 - 08:32 PM
Ruth Archer 17 Jul 11 - 03:52 AM
Tattie Bogle 17 Jul 11 - 04:17 PM
Andy Jackson 17 Jul 11 - 04:32 PM
GUEST 17 Jul 11 - 04:38 PM
GUEST 18 Jul 11 - 07:11 AM
Tattie Bogle 18 Jul 11 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 18 Jul 11 - 10:58 AM
Tug the Cox 21 Jul 11 - 07:16 PM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 11 - 07:48 PM
Dave Earl 22 Jul 11 - 03:23 PM
Tug the Cox 23 Jul 11 - 11:02 AM
Vic Smith 23 Jul 11 - 11:23 AM
Dave Earl 23 Jul 11 - 02:12 PM
Tattie Bogle 25 Jul 11 - 11:37 AM
evansakes 10 Aug 11 - 05:26 AM
Vic Smith 10 Aug 11 - 06:12 AM
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Subject: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 04:48 PM

Tina and I have been asked to host a "Folk Club Forum" at Sidmouth Festival this year. Provisional time just arrived by email a few minutes ago:-

Monday 01-Aug 4:30pm - 6:00pm Arts Centre

The programme blurb for this event will read:-
"A Future for Folk Clubs. In the 1960s and 70s, folk clubs were the focus of the English folk revival. They still have a vital role to play in the 21st century. Vic and Tina Smith, organisers of the very successful Royal Oak folk club in Lewes, Sussex, will lead a discussion on all aspects of club organisation. Come and have your say, or just listen!


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:13 PM

Sounds interesting.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 05:21 PM

We know who we are. Who are you?


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 05:12 AM

Miskin Man asks:-
We know who we are. Who are you?


Is this question directed at me as the person who started this thread? You do not make it clear.

Oh, and if you are coming to this forum/discussion please remember the dress code - Edhardy Tshirts,Gucci Bikini,chanel Sunglassess,Gucci shorts,chanel handbags. (Actually, I have always been amazed that Mudcat manages to keep itself so spam free compared with some other internet forums)


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 05:56 AM

Vic, it would be very useful, if it is possible for someone to record the discussion, so that those people who were unable to attend might benefit if an audio recording was put on you tube, just a thought, best of luck and hope it goes well.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: ripov
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:02 AM

I've always felt I'd do better (financially)as a musician if I looked better in a miniskirt, but I think many might draw the line at bikinis and handbags.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:48 AM

I will be recording the whole discussion and Derek Schofield has expressed an interest in an article that summarises the points discussed for English Dance & Song - though that will obviously depend on the quality of the discussion! Ninety minutes would certainly be too long for a YouTube or MySpace upload, but if I get time, I will attempt to draw a summary and synopsis from the points made and post it somewhere on the web - perhaps here. My intention is that the meeting should be positive and forward looking in tone and as chairman, I will not want time devoted to moaning or backward-looking negativity - we are at this point in 2011; how can we go forward?

I do intend to have a timed agenda for the 90 minute meeting with six relevent items being awarded 10 minutes each followed by 30 mins general discussion afterwards. I will post this here once it has been finalised.

... and for newcomers to the thread the references by ripov and myself above are to a spam posting that has now, thankfully, been removed.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:54 AM

Everyone who is involved in any way with folk clubs is welcome to this meeting; regular audience members, floor singers, guest artists, agents as well as club organisers.

Those who cannot make it are invited to contribute by sending a PM to me. These I will print and read out at the meeting if they seem to have a bearing on the discussion


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 08:42 AM

Vic,I have sent you a personal message


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: GUEST,Frank Ingnobody
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:14 PM

I shall endeavour to be there.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 06:21 AM

Frank Ingnobody wrote:-

I shall endeavour to be there.


Wow! The organiser of the legendary Borfolk at a forum/discussion that I am leading! Other participants will have to excuse me if I am totally obsequious towards this iconic figure.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 06:46 AM

We have now settled on an agenda for this meeting:-

1] Club policies (10 mins)
2] The environment of a club and conduct of a club evening (10 mins)
3] Standards and Floor Singers (10 mins)
4] Advertising and Promotion (10 mins)
5] Finances (10 mins)
6] Comperes (10 mins)
7] Open Discussion (30 mins)


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 07:06 AM

Although not at Sidmouth this year, Vic, a discussion as important as this makes a day trip worth considering. Although the cost of the a day trip is prohibitive.

Hope it stays focussed and positive.

I'm with you Vic on something you posted in another place...ah found it.

I do, however, carry a torch for folk clubs and always have done. At their best, there can create a sense of communal enjoyment that is rarely reached in other folk/roots music performance forms.

Exactly how I feel.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 02:47 PM

Sounds interesting but as one who lives in Scotland and is involved in a number of folk clubs and festival organisation there, is this discussion not relevant to ALL folk clubs wherever they may be, and not just to "The English Folk revival"?
I appreciate that Sidmouth is a long way south, but people do come from Scotland, Wales and Ireland and beyond to the festival, so perhaps this could be opened out a bit? (Sorry, i know I'm nit-picking, but I think it's a relevant point)


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 05:55 PM

Tattie Bogle wrote:-
"is this discussion not relevant to ALL folk clubs wherever they may be, and not just to "The English Folk revival"?"


The statement saying "English" rather than "British" (as I think it should be) was written by the person making up the working programme for the festival. I will contact him straight away asking for this change to be made - but I fear that it may be too late.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 05:58 PM

it should be changed whatever, it should at least include scotland and wales.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 10:56 AM

Is this a free event?


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 11:36 AM

I really don't know, Tug. I don't think so. I will not know about this event or the others that we will be involved in until the working programme is published. You could try emailing info@sidmouthfolkweek.co.uk


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 09:11 AM

People who have been interested in the points made in this thread may also want to have a look at a parallel thread on the fRoots Forum. It is called What is a Club? and you can go to it by clicking here.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Jon Boden
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 09:56 AM

Interestingly I've been asked to run something similar at Cambridge Folk Festival this year - working title "A Beginner's Guide to Running a Folk Club" - from the point of view of a beginner (me) although hopefully we'll have some more experienced organisers at hand to offer their perspective. Clearly it's a timely subject! Jon


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 07:20 PM

The event will now say "British" as opposed to "English".
and no, it's not free ... !!! It's in the morning and afternoon talks programme in the Arts Centre, which is part of "workshops". You have to pay ..... venues, artists, publicity, priting ... believe it or not, the festival has to pay for them! Shocking I know, but there it is.....
Derek


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 07:21 PM

It's not too late for the change to be made...we'll sort that out tomorrow.

The discussion will be part of the programme of talks and discussions which take place as part of Sidmouth FolkWeek, and as such is not a free event.


Joan Crump


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 07:35 PM

Oop - have cross-posted with Mr Schofield! Apologies...


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: SylviaN
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 03:17 AM

Keith is hoping to be there. Unfortunately, I can't.

Cheers

Sylvia


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 05:45 AM

It would sound like minutes could be posted here for those not able to attend.
floraG


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:59 AM

Flora G wrote:-

It would sound like minutes could be posted here for those not able to attend.
floraG


An earlier post of mine says that this is what I intend to do.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 10:04 AM

Sorry Vic. There is none so blind as those who read the first half then the second half and mis the middle half.

I think the future of clubs is a worry. I don't see the youngsters standing up and taking over. I see the market flooded with degree competent youngsters and others of equal merit but all wanting to do the festivals and not wanting to bother with the local clubs.

I hope you can come up with some good ideas. I shall look forward to reading them.
FloraG


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 01:09 PM

Will Sam Lee be there?

Kitty


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:09 PM

will Sam Lee be there/. quote
I do not understand the relevance of this question.
I would have thought it was Important to have as many professional performers as possible, but equally important to have elder statesman[people like johnny handle bob davenport , martin carthy etc]who have been involved for 40 plus years, as well as younger performers.
I am baffled .


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Steve Hunt
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:39 PM

GSS - Sam Lee is the organiser of a very successful (newer) folk club (The Magpies Nest). The others that you mention are not.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 12:06 AM

so, you think is it more important to have a young club organiser at the meeting than people who have been performing for 40 years or running folk clubs for 40 years[dartford, southport, swindon,bodmin.
I would have thought all the above they were equally important.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Steve Hunt
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 04:36 AM

I was the secretary of Bodmin for several years, and am still, at forty-nine years of age, almost always the youngest person in the room by some distance. I have performed at Swindon, and was the second-youngest (my then musical partner is younger than me). The people who have been running folk clubs for 40 years were, obviously, 40 years younger when they started them - about the age that Sam is now. Is the success of Sam's club indicative of a wider revival of interest in the folk club idea, or merely an anachronistic one-off? Those of us involved in both the long-established and new clubs (in my case, Bodmin and Barley Folk) would, I'm sure, value his contribution at a forum hosted by the estimable Vic Smith. Anyway... my answer to the question, "(do I) think is it more important to have a young club organiser at the meeting than people who have been performing for 40 years or running folk clubs for 40 years?" is, " yes. " Not because I don't understand or appreciate the phenomenal contributions of all those people who inspired me, but because wI believe that we need someone to inspire the next bunch. I want the folk club movement to have more to look forward to in the next ten years than an agenda of: "last one left alive, sing "Wild Mountain Thyme" and switch the lights out...


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:42 AM

I believe that Sam Lee is not booked at Sidmouth - and I think that probably means that he will not be there to make a contribution to the discussion and the absence of such a well motivated club organiser will be a considerable loss to the meeting. His contribution as a young organiser is huge and runs beyond his involvement in the organisation of the Magpie's Nest Club to his time working for both Folk South-West and the EFDSS. When he has stayed at our house, we have picked one another's brains about club organisation and the nearly 40 years difference in our ages are irrelevant to our desire to pursue the same ends.

I have also enjoyed discussions with the two admirable young women who run the Kit & Cutter club at Deptford though one of them looked a bit sheepish when I told her that the album that her father, Tony Weatherall, played on was the best album of English traditional tune playing that I had heard in many a year; she said that she would listen to it carefully.

Jon Boden, something of a workaholic, has somehow managed to fit in organising a folk club amongst the 101 other musical and family things that he is committed to.

Three things are fairly obvious to me:-
* The folk club organisers who have been working at it for decades don't have a monopoly of good ideas.
* The young folk club organisers who have emerged in the last few years don't have a monopoly of good ideas.
* There has been an incredible upsurge of interest and performance in the traditional music of these islands in the last ten years or more and folk clubs have been slow in getting in on the action.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:48 AM

FloraG wrote:-
"I see the market flooded with degree competent youngsters and others of equal merit but all wanting to do the festivals and not wanting to bother with the local clubs."


If this statement has some truth - and I rather doubt that it is entirely true from a personal perspective from the number of young performers who flood my email inbox with requests for bookings - then it is an indictment of folk clubs that needs to be addressed.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 06:29 AM

Three things are fairly obvious to me:-
* The folk club organisers who have been working at it for decades don't have a monopoly of good ideas.
* The young folk club organisers who have emerged in the last few years don't have a monopoly of good ideas.
my point entirely which is why i stated of Equal importance.
lastly there is nothing wrong with wild mountain thyme it is a beautiful song that serves the purpose of getting everyone to sing to together.
People like PeteSeeger[a consummate performer]understood the purpose of such songs as good night irene, and then would intersperse that song with something of political significance, like how dirty is my stream,
good night irene and wild mountain thyme[or well known chorus songs] are songs that good performers understand have their uses.
Folk club organisers need to know about how to organise, perfOrmers need to know about performing, That would seem like common sense , however common sense does not appear to be that common.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Steve Hunt
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 06:34 AM

"lastly there is nothing wrong with wild mountain thyme it is a beautiful song..."

I know, I sing it. I never suggested that there was. Good day to you!


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 07:19 AM

I want the folk club movement to have more to look forward to in the next ten years than an agenda of: "last one left alive, sing "Wild Mountain Thyme" and switch the lights out...
Steve, what was the meaning of your comment?


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 07:39 AM

"and if I am deprived of the right to choose what I want to listen to at clubs, I stop going, which is more or less what happened in the 1980s when we lost thousands of our clubs, specialist record labels, magazines, radio programmes, audiences...... and eventually our identity, and ended up with what we have now in Britain, a largely directionless mess."
quote from Jim Carroll on purists thread.
I do not see the British Folk scene as Directionless, I see it as place where singers can learn the art of performing unaccompanied and accompanied folk and roots songs of British and other nationalities in a listening environment, where music is not treated as wallpaper, hence the importance of seperate club rooms for folk clubs.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Steve Hunt
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 07:45 AM

The meaning of that comment was that (in my experience) some of those long-established folk club's memberships/audiences are all growing old together, with very few younger people coming in. If that situation continues, those folk clubs will inevitably die when the people who founded and supported them all the way through also pass away. "Wild Mountain Thyme," is the archetypal folk club "last song."


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 10:46 AM

Vic - I'm glad you get lots of youngsters wanting bookings. Do they turn up for floor spots? Sell the raffle tickets? get involved?
Do they audience well - listening to others? I know how much work it is to run a folk club and usually without any renumeration.

We have a young person who plays with us - and we are glad of it - but I fear its the exception rather than the rule.
FloraG.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 07:35 PM

I asked about Sam Lee, not because he is young but because he and his co-organisers of the Magpie's Nest, including Lauren McCormick, have been attracting a young audience, without whom there is no sustainable future for any folk clubs....

I fell enduringly in love with British folk music when I was a teenager, and just wonder how and whether today's teenagers could beome similarly privileged....

Kitty


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 07:43 PM

there'll be nothing left to talk about at the Sidmouth meeting at this rate .... :-)
Derek


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 07:46 PM

PS Yes, I know folk music shouldn't be described as a privilege, but it will be until more people know about it..

Kitty


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Jim Martin
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 06:43 AM

I get the feeling that a lot of teenagers seem to feel 'disenfranchised' from anything involving adults, is that their fault or ours (probably a bit of both)?


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 09:09 AM

Teenagers have always rebelled against their parents - it's part of growing up - no-one's fault, just life. How dull it would be if we all conformed to everything all the time and never altered from birth to death.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 10:20 AM

if you want teenagers to come to folk clubs, ban people over 25 from ruuning them, get rid of vic smith, get rid of clive pownceby, out with the old, In with the new,
doesnt matter if they dont have a clue how to organise anything, nothing must stop the pursuit of worshipping youth:p:D


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 12:21 PM

Dick Miles wrote:-
"if you want teenagers to come to folk clubs, ban people over 25 from ruuning them, get rid of vic smith, get rid of clive pownceby, out with the old, In with the new,
doesnt matter if they dont have a clue how to organise anything, nothing must stop the pursuit of worshipping youth."


I would rate this comment as "not helpful". We are where we are in folk clubs in 2011. When I started to run folk clubs, I was regularly booking people who were old enough to be my grandparents, Packie Byrne, Ron Copper, Willie Scott etc. Decades later, I am regularly booking people that are young enough to be my grandchildren - Jim Causley. Askew Sisters etc. If ageism is a problem in folk clubs then it needs to be addressed in a positive way. In fact, I'd like the whole forum/discussion at Sidmouth.... and this thread... to have a positive mood so that we can move forward.

Much earlier in this thread, I wrote something that I feel I now need to repeat:-
My intention is that the meeting should be positive and forward looking in tone and as chairman, I will not want time devoted to moaning or backward-looking negativity.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 01:41 PM

vic, i added motifs:p:D
THESE Emoticons according to wikipedia indicate large grin or laugh, and tongue out after a joke, in other words i was indicating i was joking.
Vic,in my opinion you are coming across as being humourless.
I indicated by using wikipedias emoticons that I was joking, is that clear, over and out, are you receiving me in deepest Sussex ?


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 01:54 PM

at least that is what i thought according to my wall chart, apparently
x_p, is more recent emoticon for joking, chill out Vic, no point raising your blood pressure over an attempted joke, I know you take yourself very seriously, but I WAS JOKING.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: GUEST,Clive Pownceby
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 09:13 AM

Well the way I see it, ..................... erm, OK I'll get me coat!


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 09:14 AM

I feel much can be learned from looking backwards, here are some examples.
Folk clubs circa 1970 often had upwards of 100 people attending, floor singers had to be able to remember words [without bits of paper]and had to be able to sing in tune and have their instruments in tune.   otherwise they would not be guaranteed a floor spot the next week, there were some excellent resident groups, Skinners Rats for example, a group who I listened to fairly recently, this group had the ability to interact with their audience and understood about performing as well as many professional singers., and did an excellent job as warm up for the main artist
I listened to a live S Rats cd from that time, it sounds like they had 200 people in the audience, and the audience banter was excellent, everyone was clearly having a ball.
around the same time the Singers club were enforcing a rule in their club, which had both positives and negatives, the positives were many revival singers went out and sought out english traditional material and sang it instead of mainly american material, the mistake here was that for a while a lot of good american material was not sung very much, the ideal[imo] would have been the encouragement of both, what the rule said as I remember was that you had to be American to sing American material etc.
folk clubs at that time were run by mainly young people, these young people met got married and many dropped out of going to clubs until their children were grown up, hence a decline in numbers in the late seventies and eighties, it is quite probable that this up and down cycle will occur again and again, what would be interesting to know is how the long running clubs survived the lean years, that would be looking backwards and learning possibly something useful which could be passed on for the future generations of folk music enthusiasts and club organisers.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 09:20 AM

Clive, I do know that you at least have a sense of humour, your coats gone, the baldyga was here and swapped it for his bike


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 09:34 AM

The Facebook group entitled The Vic & Tina Smith Folk Club Forum Sidmouth Festival has nothing to do with Tina and I but is just yet another boring example of BNP identity theft of our names. Please do not even look at it.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 12:12 PM

ok vic, something we agree upon.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 10:15 AM

The entire Sidmouth programme is now on-line at http://www.sidmouthfolkweek.co.uk/uploads/PDFs/SIDMOUTHMain.pdf.

The event that this thread refers to is confirmed as follows:-


Event 456 4.30-6.00pm Arts Centre

A Future for Folk Clubs. In the 1960s and 70s, folk clubs were the focus
of the British folk revival. They still have a vital role to play in the 21st
century. Vic and Tina Smith, organisers of the very successful Royal Oak
folk club in Lewes, Sussex, will lead a discussion on all aspects of club
organisation. Come and have your say, or just listen! W                             £8

I hope those of you who are at this wonderful festival can come along.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Steve in Sidmouth
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 04:56 AM

Does this include running new folk dance clubs or is it aimed solely at music and song events?

There has been some debate about folk dance clubs dying out - some events locally that have run for 40 years have closed and others are going to close.

There are a few new clubs (I help to run one of them near Sidmouth) but the average age of attendees across the country is hardly inspiring.

The only place I have danced with a large number of competent youngsters is IVFDF.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 07:59 AM

Steve In Sidmouth asked:-
"Does this include running new folk dance clubs or is it aimed solely at music and song events?"


This event is aimed at folk song clubs, Steve, as you can see from the agenda posted above.... but I would think that a similar forum on dance clubs could be arranged for a future festival. Contact Derek Schofield... or he may even answer here; he pops into Mudcat from time to time.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 08:39 AM

Yes, a potential topic for the future. there is a callers' forum this year, aimed at the social dance side of things, but also open to anyone interested in calling ceilidh or folk dance club.
Derek


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 08:28 PM

Erm...is it a free event or charged?


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 08:32 PM

And yes, Vic, did se your post of 2nd July..thanks, but have been able to discover nothing since. Surely theymust have the good grace to let you know. I have strong feelings that such an event should be open and free.....what else would we be paying for. Anything less inclusive ( seaon ticket holders only) would detract from its credibility.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 03:52 AM

Festivals have overheads, as Mr Schofield explained earlier. Even in an event where there are no artists as such to pay, you have to pay for venues, for accommodation for the facilitators, etc. This forum is part of the festival's regular programme of talks, discussions, screenings etc which take place at the Arts Centre. As such, it is taking up the place of a charged event.

Season ticket holders can attend the event as part of their festival ticket. Others will have to pay. If you have an objection to this, perhaps you might like to run a free forum somewhere near where you live. This isn't meant to be a definitive event, nor one representing any particular group or constituency, so I am sure there is plenty of scope for other similar discussions elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 04:17 PM

I have to agree to a fairly large extent with TtheC. if you want a realistic and representative discussion then I would suggest such an event should be free or at minimal cost (with the "overheads" being picked up by an averaging out procedure over the whole festival).
On that day at that time there are lots of other good events that season ticket holders will take themselves off to, and for £8 , I guess most paying punters will do the same.
The recent Scottish Traditional Music Forum conference in Dundee cost £30 for a whole day conference including lunch, but it was not in the middle of a big festival with lots of competing attractions: and some delegates were sponsored by their clubs or organisations to attend anyway.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 04:32 PM

I seem to remember someone had the good idea to hold a forum during Sidmouth folk week, probably the biggest meeting of Club organisers in the country.
Fitting it in to the programme makes it an official event with the publicity, insurance stewarding etc that goes with it. Therefore it should be priced as any other workshop. I see no problem with this. Perhaps one outcome of this first meeting will be a timetable of future forums which could be costed accordingly, perhaps even free.
It would be good if there was a meet scheduled in at every festival.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 04:38 PM

We have numerous discussions during the week. People with day or weekend tickets come, as do those who buy event tickets. If you want to come to this event, all of these options are open to you. Or you could volunteer as a steward and attend lots of events in exchange for your labour. If you don't want to do any of these, I would respectfully suggest, once again, that there is nothing stopping you holding your own similar discussion elsewhere, for free. Events at Sidmouth have overheads. There is no particular reason that people who buy tickets should basically subsidise free events for those who are reluctant to do so.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 07:11 AM

Sounds like the discussion could be interesting but I am not prepared to pay £8 to attend it. I am sure there will be more ongoing discussions on these topics at many fringe events throughout the festival season, as there have been for several years already.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 10:04 AM

What's with all the GUEST postings? I'm guessing that these are 2 different people as their views seem to be at variance.
I'm not convinced by the arguments put forward for the £8 fee: and it comes across as a bit hoity-toity to say go off and do your own thing. Yes it does sound interesting but there are 5 other £8 events on at the same time, 2 @£4 for Shooting Roots, and 6 which are collection only. Ok, I appreciate that it would be difficult to schedule this event at a time when other things did not compete or conflict, but could this not have been made anther collection event? (I know you can't change it now for this year, but I like Miskin Man's suggestion in his penultimate sentence above.)

I HAVE bought a week ticket, so I could attend for no extra charge: I don't volunteer for stewarding for family reasons, although I do help out where I can at some of the Fringe events. And I'm painfully aware of overheads from my own experience of helping to run clubs and festivals (we don't often get free venues either!), but if the level of fee keeps folk away who might have a valid contribution to make to the discussion, then that's a shame.

As for one thing subsidising another, surely this happens all the time, with well-attended concerts subsidising the less popular ones? (as happens in folk clubs also).
Anyway as the last GUEST has said, there will no doubt be other discussions and sharing of ideas going on throughout the week.

Please be assured that my remarks are intended to be constructive rather than (as they seem to have been interpreted) knocking the management. I wish you a constructive forum and may or may not come.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 10:58 AM

To clarify what else is on at the same time ...

5 events at £8.
2 events at £4 - Shooting Roots aimed at 13-18 year olds who get half price admission for events anyway.
6 events with collection: 1 is an Anchor ceilidh (all these are free and the pub is a Platinum sponsor of the festival), 3 are outdoor dance displays, a ballad session and a storyround which both involve the audience performing....

Derek


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 07:16 PM

To clarify my original post. I would like to be part of a discussion, which is why I am on this forum, if the forum genuinely wants a representative group, this is not the way to do it. i emember a free discussion on Morris in the drill hall a few years ago....Tattie is of course right, free events are quite possible if the festival as a whole is priced and managed properly.
   If the aim is to have an effect on the wider folk movement, this foeum is not the way to do it.....£8 ???? for giving and sharing.
And what a rude and insensitive comment to say go and do your own thing elsewhwere.... incredible.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 07:48 PM

Rude and insenstive? Why? As I explained earlier, the festival has overheads. The event is priced just as any workshop or participative event.

As far as "properly managed" festivals sharing costs across events, we already run a substantial number of free events for the good visitors to Sidmouth to enjoy. Try matching this year's free programme of concerts and ceilidhs in the Anchor gardens on an event-by-event basis and see if you'd get much change out of £10k. If we made free or reduced the cost of every event which some people felt entitled to attend without paying (or by paying a peppercorn amount), the festival would be bankrupt. End of.

The event is being run because there was a perceived desire for it, to which we responded. It is a programmed event, it has overheads, there is a charge. If this is not to your taste, I would reiterate the fact that this is one event at one festival. The whole point of the new folk club network is to create various opportunities for forums around the country. You may find one of those more to your liking. Or start your own, and hire a venue, get insurance, staffing, bring in guests...and don't charge anyone to attend. There is no one stopping you doing exactly that, and I don't really understand why anyone would be affronted by such a suggestion.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Dave Earl
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 03:23 PM

Come on guys

It's a workshop type thing and you pays for your workshops doancha.

Pay to attend or don't go it's your choice.

Dave


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:02 AM

Yawn....its not a workshop...people are being asked to come along and participate. Anyway its status has been made clear, so I have no further interest. Fortunately there are many other participatory events throughout the festival and i already find it difficult to get around to, and I certainly do my bit in filling tins, either by donating or playing/singing at collection events.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:23 AM

Well, the idea from Tina and I was to try to provide a session/workshop/forum that would inject some stimulating positive ideas into the folk club scene plus a sharing of good ideas from those attending. The idea seems to be a useful one because it was quickly adopted by other leading festivals - Cambridge (facilitated by Jon Boden) and Whitby (led by Pete Coe) but all I seem to have done so far is to set off another round of Mudcat argy-bargy. Ho Hum.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Dave Earl
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 02:12 PM

Vic

It's the way they are round here.

There'll always be someone to disagree with whatever it is.

I won't be at your forum but I've no other axe to grind so I hope iut works for you all.

Dave


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:37 AM

Vic, I applaud the idea and your work in setting it up: didn't I say I found it interesting when you first put it on here?
My interpretation of your post was that it was not "just another workshop", but something of special interest to many attending the festival. I ventured what I thought was a legitimate opinion on an open forum - which appears not to concord with some others: that's not argy-bargy, sorry.
I'll say no more.


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: evansakes
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:26 AM

How did this go? Any conclusions? Or is the ongoing discussion going on elsewhere?

Is there any future for "folk clubs"? Or are we all doomed?


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Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:12 AM

It went very well. 36 clubs represented - far more than I expected.
I recorded the whole thing and will start to transcribe it when things are less hectic. (I have my own festival in October to attend to amongst many other folkie things)
I have been promised a synopsis of the Cambridge & Whitby forums and then I will put it together with those outcomes to make an article - which I will announce on Mudcat.


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