BS: reversing Dr. Beeching-rail lines near Glasgow

Subject: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 05:18 PM

listen again on radio4

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: gnu
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 05:45 PM

I'll have one of what he's having keep.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 09:52 PM

Sorry, I though this was about reversing breech doctors... and was wondering what in the world they were doing in there.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 11:52 PM

When you start a thread at Mudcat, try to remember that you have an international audience. At least the title and the first post should give enough information that all readers will understand what you're talking about.

This BBC News Item says:

"Reversing Dr Beeching" is about the moves taken in Strathclyde to re-open new [rail] lines and link up communities around Glasgow as its population dispersed.

You can hear the program here (click).

Dr. Richard Beeching (1913-1985), then the chairman of British Rail, closed a number of railway lines in Scotland in the 1960s.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: BrooklynJay
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 01:13 AM

And I thought the thread was about beaching.

I figured if whales and dolphins can do it, why not members of the medical profession?

Jay

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 01:13 AM

Thanks to him, Britain lost nearly half its rail system. However, we also gained one of our finest songwriters, Dave Goulder.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 04:02 AM

There's a row of houses in my village, built in 1967 on the site of the old railway station. Name of the street? - 'The Beechings'.

Can't imagine that being reversed in a hurry...

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 09:03 AM

Of course, Dr Beeching had a vested interest in moving transport off the rails and onto the roads.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 01:02 PM

The railways were originally built by a coercive form of compulsory purchase under private acts of parliament. If there was the will to build a working rail network it could be done. The problem is to build one that is affordable and copes with

(a) the cluster effect that makes commuting such a nightmare; and
(b) the needs of shoppers to return home with bulky and heavy booty.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 01:55 PM

Richard Beeching, Baron Beeching (21 April 1913 - 23 March 1985), commonly known as Doctor Beeching, was chairman of British Railways and a physicist and engineer. He became infamous in Britain in the early 1960s for his report "The Reshaping of British Railways", commonly referred to as the Beeching Report, which led to far-reaching changes in the railway network, popularly known as the Beeching Axe. As a result of the report, just over 4,000 route miles were cut on cost and efficiency grounds, leaving Britain with 13,721 miles (22,082 km) of railway lines in 1966. A further 2,000 miles (3,200 km) were to be lost by the end of the 1960s
it took 2 minutes to google that.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 02:03 PM

Thanks for taking the two minutes and the time to copy and paste it to your last post.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 02:13 PM

Yes, Dick, and why didn't you google and post that into your first message, instead of leaving us all to wonder? If you're too much in a hurry to take the time to tell us what you're talking about, why bother posting at all?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 02:20 PM

A beached doctor is a tragic sight indeed. You sometimes see them at Coney Island, I'm told.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 03:07 PM

The national railway system in Argentina, largely built by the British in the 19th and early 20th centuries - then covering much of a very large country indeed, now consists of a suburban system around BA and a once a week seaside train to Mar del Plata during the summer.

They do of course have El Tren de las Nubes, travelling up to 4200 mtrs"""

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 04:49 PM

so are europeans supposed to know who hedge and donna are, another example of Americans assuming that Europeans know everything about American has beens,
this one from wesley s
From: Wesley S - PM
Date: 18 May 04 - 01:41 PM

Does anyone remember Hedge and Donna ? They later changed their performing names to Capers and Carson. They were active in the late 60's to early 70's - released several fine LP's - recorded some of the early Jackson Browne songs. I was wondering what happened to them ? Are they still active in the music biz ? Selling used cars ? Retired on the hundreds of dollars they acquired during their career ? Just curious. Thanks.
who the hell are hedge and donna, to europeans.
JOE This is an international forum, but again you didnt interfere, and say, europeans would not know who hedge and donna are.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 02:49 AM

But -- GSS -- Wesley explained who Hedge & Donna were in his post... (BTW, I'm from the US, and I've never heard of them, either.)

You have to admit your original post was a tad cryptic...
Do all English folks know who Dr Beech is?

I don't think Joe is saying the programme is only of interest to English Catters, just that a bit more explanation/elaboration in your first post would have been a good thing.

Note: Please don't take offense. I ain't tryin' to pick a fight with ya... just tryin' to point out that I do perceive a difference between Wesley S's post and yours.

Cheers!

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 06:41 AM

The important thing is that the scots have realised the importance of having a good rail transport network, they also realise that working on infra structure is a good way to get out of a recession, and that ecologicaly trains make more sense than more roads. would that the Irish strted doing the same thing or worked upon their canal system, to be fair to the last irish government they did make the canal sytem navigable from the shsnnon to dublin.
IRELAND should employ people on increasing its existing canal network, and think of it as a way of taking SOME freight transport.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 08:57 AM

This week's 'Sounds of the 20th Century' (Thursday, 22:00, BBC Radio 2) included a news report on Beeching.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 08:57 AM

Beechingisation would be almost universally known by the English and I suspect other British.

I thought, it being an attack on government funding of socially desirable things, it would have resonance outside the UK too.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 12:35 PM

The new tram system from Edinburgh airport to the City has just been reprieved even though behind schedule and over budget.

Even more important, a volunteer group has just bought the trackbed of the old railway system at the Garret works, Leiston, Suffolk, with a view to having the preserved 'traction engine on rails', 'Sirapite' trundling about under its own steam.

Now let's find the money to rebuild the Euston Arch, and then we can think about reopening the old Great Central main line.......

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 12:41 PM

And, of course, the Sandbach-Northwich line.


Middlewich Station

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 12:13 PM

I thought beeching was like birching only with a stick from a different tree and I wondered why doctors were being flogged in the first place--something to do with Con-Dem austerity measures at the NHS, perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 07:00 AM

[PDF]
Steaming into the Future
www.sustainability.ie/canals.pdf
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
development of Ireland's waterways for freight, the canal network can support both leisure and industrial use. Most of the waterways are currently closed at ...
The future

Iarnród Éireann placed orders for 67 intercity carriages in 2003 and for 150 "regional railcars" (DMUs) in 2004. These will mostly go towards meeting demand on the railways, although some older carriages are due for retirement, and at peak times, capacity is below requirements. It is suspected that Iarnród Éireann wish to phase out all locomotive hauled services other than those using the 67 new intercity carriages. The existing 100 newest carriages (only from the 1980s) may be phased out with capacity being taken up by regional railcars. More orders of suburban railcars and DARTs are likely, but the Dublin suburban routes are almost at capacity. "Four-tracking" of the route west to Kildare has commenced.

Some call for the expansion of the rail network in the Republic. The route from Limerick to Waterford is due to have a realistic service for the first time in decades. Nevertheless, this is the only non-Dublin intercity route in existence, which has earned the railway network in Ireland the colloquial title of "Paleways" or "Palerail" (derived from The Pale). A railway right of way exists from Limerick, up through the west, to Sligo. This has been titled the Western Railway Corridor (WRC) and some see it as a possible counterbalance to investment in Dublin. Phase 1 is complete with the new line from Ennis to Athenry now open, Phase 2 due to begin late 2010 from Athenry to Tuam, with an extension from Tuam to Claremorris to link up with the Westport/Ballina line to Dublin. Future proposals will see the line extended to Sligo, where it will also link with Knock Airport.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 08:38 AM

gnihceeb rotcod

Quite easy to reverse. Difficult to pronounce though.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 08:10 PM

Just to set the record straight, a little more thorough research reveals the following facts.

""There were railway closures in 1938, which ceased with the advent of WW2. By the early 1950s, railway closures began again. The British Transport Commission (BTC) created the 'Branch Lines Committee' in 1949, with a remit to close the least used branch lines. Many of the most minor and little used lines were closed during this period. However some secondary cross country lines were closed as well such as the Midland and Great Northern Joint Railway in East Anglia, which was closed in 1959. In total 3,318 miles (5,340 km) of railway were closed between 1948 and 1962. Traffic on the railways remained fairly steady during the 1950s, however the economics of the railway network steadily deteriorated. This was largely due to costs such as labour rising faster than income. By the early 1960s the railways were in financial crisis. Operating losses increased to £68m in 1960, £87m in 1961, and £104m in 1962 (£1.65 billion as of 2011). The BTC could no longer pay interest on borrowed money, which worsened the financial problem. The government lost patience and looked for radical solutions.

And that folks was the situation in which Beeching was appointed.

And he was appointed in 1961, when the situation was already way out of control.

It may have happened under a Conservative government, but it was the British Transport Commission (a cross party independent body) and British Rail that were making the wrong decisions.

They were already on the skids and wasting huge sums of taxpayers' money when Beeching was still running ICI.""



Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 08:43 PM

Closures were happening even earlier than I thought.

Figures as follows:-

1923 to 1939 - 1264 miles
1949 to 1962 - 3318 miles
The Beeching report was published 27th March 1963
1963 to 1974 - 4065 miles

So 4582 against 4065!

Beeching was actually responsible for less than half of the closures.

Strange that nobody remembers who was responsible for the other half.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 09:11 PM

Yes, Beeching increased the rate of closure to over 300% of what it was in the 39 years prior to his report.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 11:08 PM

This is pure speculation but perhaps we are largely talking about different types of closure?

I believe for example that there were two stations in Cromer and the reason for there existence was that there were two different companies operating routes to the town. Any form of merger would rightly have seen this as a duplication of service.

So my question is were Beeching's cuts more about cutting services completely (as opposed to removing duplicates) than many of the previous closures?

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:23 AM

I don't think there was ever any duplication of lines, only profitable ones and non-profitable ones. Profitability, of course, varies with the times, and the difference between goods and passenger services should also be observed - as should the fact that I'm no expert on this by any means. I think it was a matter of trying to make a profit out of a public service, and the rights and wrongs of that are probably another discussion entirely..

Subject: RE: BS: reversing doctor beeching
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:29 AM

Disagree, DtG: I find gnihceeB rotcoD perfectly easy to pronounce; tho a question does arise as to whether the 'c' in the middle of 'gnihceeB' should be hard or soft as it is followed by an 'e' that way round; also as to whether the initial 'g' before the 'n' should be vocalised...

On second thoughts, maybe...?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: reversing Dr. Beeching-rail lines near Glasgow
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 02:49 PM

According to the research, all the so-called duplication closures took place very early on after WW1.

And the red herring about "rate of closures" is just that, a red herring designed to distract from the fact that

1. Beeching was only involved in one half of closures, when the incompetence of others had made it inevitable to avert bankruptcy.

2. Very few of the closures were carried out during the tenure of a Conservative government, or are all those who make that comment so lacking in historical knowledge as not to know that Labour, under the "leadership" of Harold Wilson, won the 1964 election?

In 1963 just 324 miles were closed, but in 1964 the figure rose to 1058 miles, apparently without objection from Mr Wilson, who must have agreed to it and to the 2700 miles (approx) which followed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing Dr. Beeching-rail lines near Glasgow
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:52 PM

Many miles of railway had been closed prior to the nationalisation of the railways to prevent complete collapse. What the Beeching era closures did was to close feeder lines on the assumption that the passengers on these routes would continue to use the main lines but use the replacement buses to duplicate their previous journeys. What actually happened was that many of the bus services were inadequate and soon withdrawn with the result that passengers along the old feeder routes now used private cars for their entire journey.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing Dr. Beeching-rail lines near Glasgow
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 04:55 PM

Don, I didn't dispute what you said, nor was I trying to distract from it. I based my observation on your figures by way of attempting to demonstrate why we are still talking about Beeching to this day. Your comment was "Strange that nobody remembers who was responsible for the other half." I tried to explain why - that's all. My apologies for any misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing Dr. Beeching-rail lines near Glasgow
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 06:11 PM

Smokey, I wasn't getting at you.

Nor indeed was I supporting Beeching's actions, which I did and still do regard as pure vandalism, and the source of much that is wrong with public transport today.

I was just pointing out to some who delight in attributing everything that is wrong with this country to the Conservative Party, quite unfairly in this case, for the reasons I have detailed.

The reference to nobody remembering who was responsible for the other half was about the fact that during the years between 1948 and 1962 the closures were the action of the British Transport Commission, through its own creation "The Branch Line Committee".

The BTC was "a cross party, independent body", which operated up until Beeching's appointment in 1961.

Beeching took two years to produce his report, and when his plans were initiated, the then Tory government and Transport Minister Ernest Marples were only directly involved in 1963 and the first few months of 1964, a year and a half out of twenty six years and a generous estimate of approximately 750 miles out of 8647 miles.

Hardly a reason for vilifying them, but enough according to some of our friends.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing Dr. Beeching-rail lines near Glasgow
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 11:48 PM

Absolutely no problem Don, glad to clear it up.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing Dr. Beeching-rail lines near Glasgow
From: Jim Martin
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 03:32 AM

The basic core of the system (freight) was torn assunder by the modernisation & streamlining by getting rid of most of it, thus rendering a lot of lines unviable. Beeching wanted everything in block train loads, the pick-up freight trains which shunted wagons in & out of numerous sidings he wanted rid of. Once that was achieved, there was very little freight left & gave the road operators a field day. This was done to save money, but if you take into account the present heavily subsidised road system due to over-use by big, heavy lorries & what this is costing in social terms, there can not have been any saving. All those numerous sidings gave the railway system great accessibilty, flexibility & competetiveness which has been lost. A modern system should be run with discipline to counteract the old chestnut that the old pick-up freight was inefficient, it was - but only because of poor discipline in running a reliable service to the customer. I know it would cost money, but it would be a far better system than what we have at present with congested roads loaded with intimidating juggernauts! No new factories/warehouses/industrial units should be given planning permission without rail access.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing Dr. Beeching-rail lines near Glasgow
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 07:02 AM

I agree Jim.

I have said all along that Beeching's plan was vandalism.

However, the idea of re-nationalisation now is a pipe dream. There is no way that the British taxpayer would accept the cost in extra taxation.

You get, I'm afraid, what you are prepared to pay for, and there is little likelihood that people with no practical train service to the places they wish to travel to, will view with equanimity the prospect of paying more to subsidise the fares of high earning commuters.

Just playing devil's advocate, you understand, since my income doesn't reach taxable levels, and renders train travel way out of my budget's reach.

Incidentally, (for information only, not discussion) I do believe that some infrastructure should be kept in public ownership.

Public Transport
Energy Companies
Water Companies
Telephone Companies
Ports and Harbours
and emphatically the NHS

I said I was a left wing Tory, and I never said that they hadn't ever f**ked up (this for RB, who believes they never did anything else but f**k up).

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing Dr. Beeching-rail lines near Glasgow
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 10:18 AM

"No new factories/warehouses/industrial units should be given planning permission without rail access."

And where is all the land that would required for this coming from? Let alone the finance to pay for it. What will the factories and industrial units be producing? The old goods sidings and marshalling yards were far from efficient or flexible in terms of CAPEX and OPEX. Onward distribution from these sites would be a nightmare.

Subject: RE: BS: reversing Dr. Beeching-rail lines near Glasgow
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 12:43 PM

I am glad to see that the Scots unlike some others have some sense