Noah's Ark Trap (Nic Jones album)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 02:42 AM

Im listening to an LP - what else?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 04:02 AM

An apology from the perpetrator of this thread is long overdue.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 04:45 AM

Nigel...Couldn't agree more...But, he is entitled to his opinion. I'm with John Adams. (who was there) Bill Leader and John Gill produced some of the finest recordings of the revival in that era, and without their work, we wouldn't be able to hear it today.....(Oh....we can't...Wonder why?)
The problem isn't with Bonzo and his poor quality LP. The problem is with Dave Bulmer who will not negotiate with the original artists, and release the tapes (If they are still playable).
Is he waiting until they all die? For what purpose? What does he hope to achieve?
Bonzo is unimportant really. But he has raised the Celtic Music problem again. Which is a good thing.
Regards and Respect to you Nigel.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Gareth Merengue
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:21 AM

I don't think Bonzo3legs will apologise, he's far too busy enjoying his moment in the sun. Fair enough; some people don't have much going on in their lives so small cheap thrills are valuable.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:24 AM

(If they are still playable).

Indeed. I'm told that, in the case of old reel-to-reel tapes, one play through is sometimes all it takes to strip the surface from the tape - and therefore - to be safe - the transcription has to be captured on the first play.

Lord knows what condition the the Bulmer stash is in after all these years.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 06:50 AM

Sadly Will. I think you are right. The Master tapes of all these seminal artists might be long gone. Maybe thats why Bulmer isn't negotiating with anyone. Maybe he hasn't got any negotiating chips left in his locker.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 09:50 AM

The factory pressed silver "Bright Phoebus" CD that some of us were duped unaware into buying off Amazon
from I believe a Bulmer associated seller a few years ago
sounded ok on first quick impression,
but revealed horrible vocal distortion on decent gear and studio headphones.

a shite amateurish vinyl transfer ???
degraded master tape ????

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 10:25 AM

"a shite amateurish vinyl transfer"

That may be my answer then.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkrolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 10:58 AM

For the sake of clarity I s'pose I should be more specific..

"in the absence of usable Bright Phoebus master tapes, perhaps a shite amateurish vinyl to CD transfer ????"

I'm aware many of the original pressing were flawed
[off centre hole ???].

But even if 'Bulmer' was using his best 'mint' LP to digitize for CD pressing
would that vocal distortion have been a flawed artifact of careless early 70's vinyl mastering.
Or even passed unnoticed at the time on the studio master tape ????

..or just some hopeless tool using a decent sounding distortion free LP
but overloading & clipping his digital recorder inputs
in too much careless haste to press up a batch of dodgy Cds
to cash in on the Radio 4 documentary.. !!!???

Lets just hope a pristine distortion free master tape is secretly archived at some mystery location
under professional storage conditions.....????????

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 11:16 AM

Has anyone tried the British Library? An album of mine from 1973 was remastered and rereleased a couple of years ago by a European label and they borrowed the master tapes from the British Library to do it - I saw a photo of them. I was very surprised they'd been kept at all, but apparently it was standard practice, even with small labels.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 11:36 AM

Smokey.
I very much doubt that Bulmer has supplied the British Library with any Master tapes. He keeps them very close to home (Quite how he keeps them is a different matter!)
The Bright Phoebus release was a travesty. Luckily, not many people bought it..

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 11:46 AM

It would have been the original company who deposited them there, not Bulmer. Does anyone actually know whether he has them at all? Owning the rights doesn't necessarily mean possession of the tapes.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 11:46 AM

The Legal Deposit requirement for copies of all books to be deposited in national libraries, which has existed for hundreds of years, is - as far as I recall - voluntary for recorded sound.

And a search of the BL's integrated catalogue reveals no entries for Nic Jones.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 04:13 PM

Smokey.
Bill Leader hasn't had the tapes for years. They are all in Dave Bulmers lair ...Very unlikely that he would have sent them to any national archive. (As I say, even if they still exist)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:20 PM

There's a BL entry for The Noah's Ark Trap - look for 1LP0130233. It says it's a disc, but it says that on my album's entry too, and that is actually two reels of tape, one for each side, with all the details written on the outside of the boxes. I'd do a clicky straight there, but it seems to run on a script of some sort which prevents that.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 08:05 PM

On closer inspection it looks as though it was John/Sue Zollman who deposited whatever the BL have. This is the full entry:

--------------------------------------------------------------
The Noah's ark trap

TRAILER LER 2091

LIST RECORDINGS:        1LP0130233

Principal performer:        Jones, Nic (male singer)

Country of origin:        England

Product title:        The Noah's ark trap

Record company name:        Trailer

Label:        TRAILER LER 2091

Label match:         TRAILERLER2091

(P) date:         1977

Product notes:         This is a reissue by Highway of the original Trailer recording

Format:         disc 2 sides 33 rpm 30 cm stereo

Holdings

PRODUCT                 Copies         Material         Location

1LP0130233            1                  DISC            Store

--------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 02:34 AM

You should be able to listen to it at the British Library.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: JHW
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 04:11 PM

Played the whole album last night. Agree on the lack of top. Switched in and turned my treble knob full boost or full cut and made no difference.
I don't though recall noticing this back in 1977 when as new it was played again and again, guess I was just happy to hear Nic.
Here he is more recently, still that voice.
(Link thanks to Fretboard Journal. Nic Jones article in recent edition.)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 01:56 AM

JHW. Was at the QEH gig....Astonishingly good, and what a great guitarist Joe is...

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 05:38 AM

Recording studios could get a good sound back then, just witness the prog rock offerings and the ability to quite accurately get an orchestra balanced. I was playing with 48 track in the late '70s and the equipment was far from new. AKG mic references take me back too!

That said, folk acts weren't in the megabuck category and the quality of recordings reflected the budgets somewhat. True, a good sound engineer and producer could compensate somewhat but missing highs and lows are a feature of the equipment being used and the treatment of the master cut.

I suppose it is part of the folk tradition that Nic Jones didn't have access to the same gear as Rick Waleman. Live with it.

If you can't live with it, the Cheapest audio cleaning software, even shareware could rack it up a notch or two.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 12:58 PM

I was given a copy of this LP on CD-R, so I don't know how/when it was transferred from vinyl. This thread prompted me to listen again critically both to the music and the sound. Regarding the sound, I played around using the graphic equaliser on iTunes and listening on a good pair of headphones. It does seem to benefit from a boost of 3-5 dB at 2kHz and above - I wonder whether someone mismatched some Dolby B processing at some point, perhaps my copy went from vinyl to CD via a cassette deck. For those of you with vinyl I'd love to know what it sounds like on a really good record deck.

But much more important is the music..this really is a great record! Just as good as From the Devil to a Stranger and Penguin Eggs. Miles Weatherhill is so powerful and Annachie Gordon is heart-breakingly beautiful. I remember someone (Jack Campin I think) describing this as one of the great Scottish melodies in another Mudcat thread and I have to agree. And then there's 10,000 miles and Isle of France, almost as gorgeous. Just wow...

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 02:24 PM

I boight this when it came out in 1977 and I wouldn't like to say how many times I've played it since. It's never once occurred to me to think about the quality of the recording. Perhaps I have cloth ears, but for me the outstanding thing about this album is the quality of the songs and performances.

It's an outstanding album, as are Nic's other albums. If you can let any perceived technical shortcomings affect your enjoyment, you're missing the point by a mile.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 03:48 PM

Further digging at the British Library Sound Archive reveals not only a different track order to the LP, but that track 'six' of the album is as follows:

1LP0130233 6 TRAILER        
Lord Saltoun And Auchanachie/Traditional
Jones, Nic
Nic JONES (Vocal and Guitar)
RECORDING

They didn't get that title from the LP or the sleeve, but it's quite possible that the master tape might bear that title, and have the tracks in a different order to the final release.

Similar track order and title discrepancies can be found for 1LP0130271 and 1LP0130204, though I can't find the "Nic Jones" album at all. Still, it would appear very likely that the stereo masters still exist for the others.

This information is available from HERE by searching for the reference numbers.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 05:35 PM

Correction - they have the 'Nic Jones' album, its reference number is 1LP0093491.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Chris_S
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 04:53 PM

From Howard "It's an outstanding album, as are Nic's other albums. If you can let any perceived technical shortcomings affect your enjoyment, you're missing the point by a mile."

I can only echo Howard's comments. It's a brilliant album and any hifi issues pale into insignificance when experiencing the wonder of 10,000 Miles and Annachie Gordon. These two are going to fight it out for a place on my desert island list and that is high praise indeed. I wonder if Bonzo actually hears the songs or just listens to the sound his sound system is making?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 05:01 PM

Hi Smokey...It's incredibly unlikely that the British Library have the Master Tapes...They might have the Vinyl...But, that will be it.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 05:20 PM

A lot of the UK pressings were done on recycled vinyl back then, which could be a bit unpredictable. Also, one set of disc stampers would only do so many copies before wearing out, and I'm guessing that the higher frequencies would suffer first. I'd sell my granny's wooden leg for a clean digital copy of 'Devil to a Stranger'..

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 05:28 PM

Ralphie - have a look and draw your own conclusions. Why else would there be any variations in the titles and running order? Also, I know for certain what they've got of mine, obscure though it was. PM me and I'll give you details of that for comparison, but I'm not posting it here as it wasn't folk and it wasn't all that good :-)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 05:39 PM

AFAIK "aural exciters" basically introduce distortion at above maybe 1k to 2k.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 05:42 PM

psychoacoustic enhancement can be used for good or evil..

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Surreysinger
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 05:49 PM

Smokey - the catalogue number and details you have supplied for Noahs Ark Trap quite clearly show that what they are holding is a disc with two sides playable at 33rpm - not a tape of any sort.
"disc 2 sides 33 rpm 30 cm stereo" is shown on the catalogue entry ... and incidentally the catalogue number also indicates that it is an LP. (Another item I was looking at recently, a Betamax tape, had the catalogue number commencing BM, for instance).

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 05:59 PM

"disc 2 sides 33 rpm 30 cm stereo"

As I said earlier, it says that about mine too, but I've seen the tapes.

And again, how come the tracks are in a different order, sometimes with different names?

I suppose an email to them would settle the matter.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Surreysinger
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 08:02 PM

"As I said earlier, it says that about mine too, but I've seen the tapes."
Hadn't seen that. Oh well ...

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bugsy
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 09:44 PM

My copy is on the "Shanachie" label.

Cat no: Shanachie 79003

Track sequence:
Side 1
1. THe Wanton Seed
2. Jackie Tar
3. Ten Thousand Miles
4. The Golden Glove
5. The Indian Lass

Side 2
1. Miles Weatherhill
2. Isle of France
3. Crockery Ware
4. Annachie Gordon

I don't have the facility to play the album at the moment, so cannot comment on the quality.

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Art Thieme
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 11:02 PM

I've enjoyed everything of Nic Jones' music I've ever heard. It was what it was, and it was grand! Everything mentioned here I have transferred to CD using a basic Roxio home program that someone sent to me as a gift. I might've tweaked something along the way, but they all sound very much like the LPs or the cassettes I picked up over the years of Nic's music. That's just what I wanted. And I'm happy to still be able to hear it.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 11:54 PM

British Library entries:

1LP0130233    The Noah's ark trap - PRODUCT
1LP0130233 1 TRAILER Isle Of France/Traditional - RECORDING
1LP0130233 2 TRAILER Wanton Seed/Traditional - RECORDING
1LP0130233 3 TRAILER The Golden Glove - RECORDING
1LP0130233 4 TRAILER Jackie Tar - RECORDING
1LP0130233 5 TRAILER Ten Thousand Miles/Traditional - RECORDING
1LP0130233 6 TRAILER Lord Saltoun And Auchanachie/Traditional - RECORDING
1LP0130233 7 TRAILER Indian Lass/English - RECORDING
1LP0130233 8 TRAILER Crockery Ware/Traditional - RECORDING
1LP0130233 9 TRAILER Miles Weatherhill - RECORDING

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 01:51 AM

Firstly, I'm sure the British Library stuff is an LP...Can't see Bulmer giving away the Master tapes (even if they're still playable, which is highly unlikely, as at least one was used to prop up a wonky table many years ago!)
Art. Glad you can still enjoy Nics work. If you can do Facebook (or know someone who does) Worth checking out the Nic Jones group. Videos of the Old man himself 3 weeks ago at a gig in Londons Queen Elizabeth Hall, singing accompanied by his son Joe playing wonderful guitar It's just a cam-corder video, but to see Nic singing again on stage after all this time.....talk about "Spine tingling" doesn't get close. Hope you get a chance to see it.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 10:53 AM

I like noahs ark trap, but my favourite recording is penguin eggs

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 11:19 AM

If British Library stuff is just an LP, their filing clerk must be psychic or barmy because that track list certainly wasn't copied from any edition of the LP. Likewise the entries for 'Devil to a Stranger' - I've not checked the other two closely yet. I doubt Bulmer ever had the master tapes to the Nic Jones stuff, and sorry, but I just don't believe anyone ever saw one, let alone 'at least one' Nic Jones master tape propping up a wonky table. How short was the leg in question? It's my belief that for whatever reason, either no-one has ever actually asked the British Library what they have, or someone doesn't want it known. Either way, I intend to find out if only just to satisfy my own curiosity.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 11:37 AM

..just adding that now my curiosity has been aroused
I located 2 different lower medium quality coded mp3 downloads of "Noah's Ark Trap"
and they are dramaticly different in tone quality.

One is bass heavy and boomy, the other light and airy with hardly any bottom end.

There are just so many technical & equipment factors to consider
accounting for these extreme tonal differences.

Though, I do remember being a teenage HiFi buff back in the 70's
and how much pot luck determined
the sound quality of any brand new vinyl LP pressing.

BTW, to what extent were the Leader recordings sold as cassettes or even consumer reel to reel tape versions ?

That might offer another option for reasonable quality transfers to CD.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,PatrickH
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 12:15 PM

It's up on YouTube. Lovely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc4T12JzNWI

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 12:41 PM

I know someone who worked with Bulmer in the 80's He's not sure whether it was Reel 1 or 2 of the Master of Nics first LP (1/4 inch) But, It was definitely propping up a table.
Quite where it is now, we'll probably never know.
PFR...I don't think that Leader stuff ever made it to cassette. It was very much a cottage industry, Don't think that the cash would have run to that....(Let alone Reel to Reel releases!)
Might be wrong, but, I've never seen a Leader cassette.

---

It appears the poster is Ralphie. I think it was an honest mistake on his part, intending to address a message to Smokey, not from. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: johnadams
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 01:10 PM

As a Leader/Trailer artist I don't remember ever having cassettes of any of our albums or seeing cassettes of anybody else. They were certainly never released on reel to reel as that format had been superceded by that time.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 05:37 PM

Er, I'd like to make it very clear that "Guest, Smokey" was NOT me.. I hope that can be confirmed by Joe or someone.

It would seem that somewhere, a cage has been rattled.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Surreysinger
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 05:47 PM

I have a sneaky suspicion that someone meant to head it up as a reply to you, and just put your name in the wrong box Smokey. Doesn't look like malice aforethought, or rattling of cages. :-)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 06:21 PM

Ralphie,I think you are overreacting.
I think there is an element of truth in bonzos remarks.
I think the recording of penguin eggs is better, the music on both lps are good.
Bill Leader, I recorded with him, one of the good things about Bill, was his sympathy with the music, he wasnt just a very competent recording engineer,he was someone with a great enthusiam, knowledge and love for the music, you could ask his opinion,he was someone whose opinion you respected, he was someone who made you feel at ease when one was working with him, this is really important.
my only criticism, I have of Bill Leader, and its a very minor criticism, was his habit of reusing old tapes and re recording over them, it is understandable when everything is being run on a low budget, but IMO it does not produce the best sound, furthermore if a company is paying for the recording time and tapes they surely have a right to insist on new tapes for recording.
Bill was a very good recording engineer with a great love for traditional music, which isIMO important.
I have worked with two other recording engineers, who were on a par with Bill, one was Dave Howard[BBC trained]and the other was Chris Pollington[ who played with Strawhead], but the people who are on a par with Bill are few and far between

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 06:33 PM

Surreysinger - yes, you are probably right, that makes sense.

These are the British Library entries for 'Devil to a Stranger', although the album title is nowhere to be found. Notice the running order of the tracks and the variation in titles. The first item is most likely the LP (described as 'product') and the rest is, I am convinced, a tape ('recording') possibly with the tracks in the order in which they were recorded, which would account for the last two items being together.


1LP0130271 [no title given] TRANSATLANTIC LTRA 507 - PRODUCT

1LP0130271 1 TRANSATLANTIC - Master Kilby/Somerset - RECORDING

1LP0130271 2 TRANSATLANTIC - Billy Don't You Weep For Me/Anonymous - RECORDING

1LP0130271 3 TRANSATLANTIC - Far From Home/Traditional - RECORDING

1LP0130271 4 TRANSATLANTIC - William Glenn/Traditional - RECORDING

1LP0130271 5 TRANSATLANTIC - Newport Street/English - RECORDING

1LP0130271 6 TRANSATLANTIC - Lochmaben Harper/Traditional - RECORDING

1LP0130271 7 TRANSATLANTIC - Green Mossy Banks Of The Lea/English - RECORDING

1LP0130271 8 TRANSATLANTIC - Lake of Coolfin - RECORDING

1LP0130271 9 TRANSATLANTIC - Little Heathy Hill/Irish - RECORDING

1LP0130271 10 TRANSATLANTIC - Some Say The Devil Is Dead/Irish - RECORDING

1LP0130271 11 TRANSATLANTIC - Singer's Request/Anonymous - RECORDING

1LP0130271 12 TRANSATLANTIC - Singer's Request/Anonymous - RECORDING

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 08:50 PM

These tapes can't be the actual ones which were used to cut the master discs - they would have to have the tracks in the right order because that job had to be done in one shot per side. They have to be the tapes from which the final master was recorded, in which case the recording quality should be better still, as it's a generation younger. In which case, Bulmer may have had some tapes, but not these. Maybe he never thought to ask the BL either..

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 05:57 AM

Joe apologies! That post was from me...Just typed in Smokeys name by mistake! Doh!
(and apologies to Smokey too for stealing your identity!....Nothing personal!)
As far as the tapes are concerned. There must have been a lot of careful editing to have happened to segue the tracks as per the original LP's.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 07:36 AM

The British Library listening service should be utilised to the full in whatever way deemed appropriate.