Noah's Ark Trap (Nic Jones album)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Reinhard
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 09:44 AM

JHW: Nic Jones, LER 2027, 1971

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Morris-ey
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 10:35 AM

I think BonzoTroll is more interested in hi-fi than music - sad.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 11:07 AM

just to put our minds at rest.....

On the reasonable assumption the British Library has insufficient funds & resources
to carefully make publicly accessible digital copies of all it's audio archives;

would the BL actually attempt to spool up and play
fragile easily worn out & destroyed unique archived master tapes
at the listening request of any & all members of the public ???

[same question applies to studio acetate discs and rarest surviving
so far unplayed vinyl discs in the BL archive ???]

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 01:26 PM

"would the BL actually attempt to spool up and play
fragile easily worn out & destroyed unique archived master tapes
at the listening request of any & all members of the public ???"

In my experience - yes!!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 01:38 PM

so the fact that irreplaceable and invaluable tapes of unique cultural significance,
may be damaged beyond repair
as long as you satisfy your personal whim to listen

[.. or surreptitiously record the headphone output for distribution
and extra ratio credits at "Dime" ????]

is of no consequence or concern to you ?????




.. I presume we already know the answer to that question ....

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 01:54 PM

Excellent idea!!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 02:41 PM

Mine is the Trailer release dated 1977 LER 2091 with a yellow label.

Mine's the Highway release - there may well be some difference in quality between the two as they were pressed on separate occasions, probably in a different place.

The mix, as Ralphie so rightly observed, will appear to vary according to what speakers are used. In short, the cheaper the speakers, the more the vocal range tends to be favoured. On my copy the vocal sound is tonally weak in comparison to 'Devil' but not particularly quieter in the mix.

My copy of 'Devil' seems to be a hybrid - the record itself has a standard Transatlantic label, the back of the sleeve says it's Logo Records but has a Trailer sticker on it, and the front says as part of the design 'The Leader Tradition'. Whatever, it was good enough to sell me a Fylde guitar (or two).

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 02:43 PM

says it's Logo Records but has a Trailer sticker on it

Sorry, I meant a 'Highway' sticker.. babble, babble, babble....

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 05:54 PM

Message to Dick Miles re-using tapes.
It was done on a daily basis, at the BBC on Peel sessions. First job of the day, before the band arrived was to wipe the mulitrack from yesterdays session. One 24 track 2 inch master tape could be used about 20 times before it became useless. It had to be done. We could never have stored so many tapes...(which weren't exactly cheap)
Yes, really important stuff is stored for eternity, but daily sessions, having been mixed and saved on various media, were routinely wiped, and re-used.
You don't have to use virgin tape for every recording. (This is all irrelevant now in the digital world. obviously)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 06:13 PM

is yours an original or the Trailer release?

Just realised I meant to ask "... an original or the Highway release". Sorry for the confusion. Good job I don't have a brain; I'd only break it.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 06:50 PM

On reusing tapes:

I could finger several small studios who didn't even bother erasing them first, and only degaussed and cleaned the heads each time Halley's comet appeared on a Wednesday.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 07:43 PM

.. the topic of this thread is as good an excuse as any to link to this "Sound on Sound" article again....

"Tape Salvage & Transfer"

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep05/articles/fxcopyroom.htm

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 08:04 PM

Thanks, Pfr, fascinating.

Sadly it's fairly certain that the Trailer/Leader multitracks didn't survive. Too much to hope for. I reckon the tapes the B. Library have are a stereo mix taken from those, which was then used to record what became the production master. That's not how I'd have done it, but I expect they had their reasons. At least someone had the good sense to put them where they'd be stored in appropriate conditions - pity they didn't tell anyone though.

It's the artists I feel sorry for - they deserve to be told.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 02:30 AM

Oh for a time machine!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 06:04 PM

Dunno what difference a Tardis would have made, Bonzo..

Ralphie - do you think the joins between the tracks on 'Devil' might have been spliced?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 02:14 AM

Almost certainly. The mixes on each track would have been very different. And the editing on NAT is very cleverly done. Not quite as clever as George Martin/Geff Emericks edit of Strawberry fields. 2 Different takes in different keys and different tempos! (See if you can find it!)
As for the BL stuff. I still think it's an LP transfer, although why they put the track order in that particular way, I know not...Weird!
And why master to tape in this day and age? We all know that tape has a relativley short shelf life (30-40 years) Why not put it straight onto a hard drive? (obviously with 2 back-up hard drives!)
I had to ask a mate at the Beeb to let me in a couple of weeks ago, to try and salvage a couple of rolls of tape...She said..."I think we've got one tape machine left somewhere!!"
She found it in a dubbing suite wrapped in plastic! It still worked, sadly the tapes didn't! Too much print through.
The Beeb now records everything direct to an enourmous server (well 3 actually) that can be then accessed by anyone (in the world probably!) with the right access codes obviously. I think they keep the tape machine (a Studer BTW) for old times sake!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 02:33 AM

Don't let Punkfolkrocker in then, he'll try to stop anybody playing anything "just in case............."

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 08:28 AM

"he'll try to stop anybody playing anything "just in case"


No, just inconsiderate selfish dimwits with no care or concern for the proper preservation of,
and responsible public access to,
irreplaceable priceless national treasures..


You do know exactly what people are trying so patiently to explain to you,
but choose to ignore and distort their meaning
for your own perverse antagonistic ends....

So apparently no point then anyone asking you to stop acting like such an immature twat.......?????

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 08:33 AM

Way To Go PFR. Nicely said.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 09:23 AM

Do you get expenses for working on the Public Service Police I wonder?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 09:25 AM

grow up old man...

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 10:13 AM

You're not getting angry are you? Very entertaining!!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 10:31 AM

Well, I won't be letting Bonzo getting his hands on the access codes to the Beebs archive.....He'd have heart attack at all the stuff he could nick!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolrocker
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 11:36 AM

silly old conceited bonz..

.. mistaking disdain for anger...


In this particular thread amongst the company of genuine experienced professional audio experts

[I would not dare presume or flatter myself to be one of them]

who care profoundly that precious recordings may be so easily damaged or lost forever..



yours is the lone voice of vain arrogant foolishness....

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 11:51 AM

I shall dine well in the knowledge of that.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 03:40 PM

Hope you dine weli Bonzo.
Us professional sound engineers will dine much better. (Omelette and chips probably)
After all, we provide the product. (and sometimes get a Pizza as a reward)
Seriously, we will protect what we record...Always have, Always will.
And unless agreements are made, You won't get your hands on them.
Unless you want to steal them....Which of course you wouldn't contemplate....Would you?
Being such a nice chap, who's never done a bootleg in his life......
Shouldn't you be going off to Argentina shortly? Lot's of musos over there...Bloody good they are too.
Why not bootleg them?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 03:51 PM

I'm not fighting a battle of wits with two unarmed men!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,arlphie
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 03:52 PM

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 04:00 PM

you've already used that one in another recent thread
regarding a 'battle' that you instigated;
and any glorious 'victory parade' seems to be taking place nowhere else
but inside your sadly limited imagination..

.. perhaps you need to download a new pdf handbook of prefabricated pithy put-downs
and witty caustic replies for all social occasions...???

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 04:00 PM

Bonzo...Just carry on bootlegging other musicians work for your own enjoyment. Don't worry about the pittance that they earn. (or that you are denying them) As long as you've got a fine selection of recordings, that's just dandy. Carry on then...
Shall I send you a copy of my CD? .......For nothing?....Don't hold your breath.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 05:10 PM

Actually Bonzo. You are the worst sort of unpleasant people. Somebody pointed out that you had bootlegged me a year or so ago. Hope you are enjoying it, because we we played crap that night.
You are really not a very pleasant person are you?
Most of the posters on this thread, have huge amounts of knowledge within the media/recording industry. Over many decades.
What have you done? Please expand....(Oh, and erase the gig you stole without consent)

Subject: RE: Aha, rank sport
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 05:12 PM

Gentlemen, please..

As for the BL stuff. I still think it's an LP transfer, although why they put the track order in that particular way, I know not…Weird!

Not as weird as changing some of the titles, and in some cases losing the LP title completely.. It's supposed to be a catalogued archive, after all. No, I'm convinced they have a mix straight from the multitracks, in the order in which the tracks were recorded and bearing the working-titles. I can find out easy enough.

Strawberry Fields? Aaah, now yer talkin'……

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 05:41 PM

"The Sound Archive's Listening and Viewing Service provides free public access to our collection of recorded sound and video. Users can hear any item from the Archive's extensive holdings of published and unpublished recordings of music, wildlife, drama, literature and oral history. The service provides access to BBC broadcasts."

Full details HERE.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 05:42 PM

Go for it Smokey...Hard to find, but when you do, you'll never forget it! That was serious analogue mixing....and a lot of blind luck! Wish I'd been there!
Only recorded in Abbey Road once. Mind you It was Kirsty McColl....proper Folk Music!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 06:10 PM

I expect you saw the George Martin documentary - much about Strawberry Fields on there if memory serves me correctly. I seem to remember something about unorthodox use of the mellotron's pitch adjustment knob..

Apparently the final mix of Dark Side of the Moon was quite a stunt too - I may have read about that in Nick Mason's biography - well worth a read.

I loved Kirsty McColl's version of 'Days' - yes, proper folk music ;-)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 09:06 PM

2 Different takes in different keys and different tempos! (See if you can find it!)

I don't think I could have found it unaided, but once you know, it's clear enough. Parts of Sheffield are like that.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 01:41 AM

Have only worked in Abbey Road once (Studio 1...The big one, All you need is love was broadcast from there) but, during a break, managed to sneak into Studio 2. And actually stroked the walls! How sad is that? Lol!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 04:37 AM

"Oh for a time machine!!"

That comes from a Pete Frame Family Tree - he was referring to the Windsor Blues Festival 1967, where some of us saw the debut of Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac. I have some grainy super 8 film of that somewhere.

"Somebody pointed out that you had bootlegged me a year or so ago"

Did I really - news to me?????

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 01:16 PM

managed to sneak into Studio 2. And actually stroked the walls! How sad is that? Lol!

Not at all, Ralphie, considering what came out of the place.. Bugger Lourdes :-)

Bonzo - you should read Charlie Watkins' account of the '67 Windsor festival, it's hilarious.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 02:34 AM

Thanks for that.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 06:40 PM

Wasn't that the same occasion on which Arthur Brown accidentally set on fire whilst dangling from a crane, Bonzo? Folk music aint what it used to be.. Charlie Watkins did the sound, if you hadn't already realised.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 02:51 AM

Oh yes, I knew that. I remember Peter Green using an Orange amp, and someone shouted "where's your Marshall?" during his second set in a marquee!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 11:54 AM

Ralphie - you have publicly accused me of "bootlegging" one of your CDs. Before I instruct my London lawyer tomorrow, I will give you an opportunity to elaborate - and you had better be quick.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 12:02 PM

Not the CD...Apparently it was a Live gig....Didn't notice at the time but was told later. You might as well copy the CD If you wish...I never saw a penny from it anyway!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 01:13 PM

"Apparently it was a Live gig....Didn't notice at the time but was told later. You might as well copy the CD If you wish...I never saw a penny from it anyway!"


Apparently? Apparently?? You accuse me on something which is just apparently - I don't believe this.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 01:26 PM

Yes, folks would tend to agree that 'Apparently?'
would not constitute the firmest grounds for reasonable suspicion.

But.. hmmm.. now let's think..

Who's been hinting & bragging in various thread posts
about his portable pocket size 'stealth' recording equipment
and enthusiasm for illicit bootleg recordings ???????

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 02:14 PM

No grounds at all, and I'm currently mulling over numbers and noughts to discuss with my London lawyer tomorrow.

I'm still waiting for news of this "gig".

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Noreen
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 06:31 PM

Are London lawyers different from other lawyers?

Just asking!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 02:33 AM

Yes, more heavyweight!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:32 AM

Bonzo. Just go away away. You've been bragging about recording gigs without the artists permission for years.
It's becoming tiresome. Haven't you got another holiday to South America planned? (First class natch)...Bye Bye then. Have a lovely time.