Noah's Ark Trap (Nic Jones album)

Subject: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 07:04 AM

We played this LP over breakfast - some observations:

Nic is superb of course

Recording balance is awful

No top end

Very low volume

What was that idiot Leader thinking of by releasing such a poorly recorded LP of such great performances?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 07:13 AM

Bill Leader is a master; take him out of the equation and the revival wouldn't be a tenth of what it is. Listen to Bright Phoebus - still the best sounding folkrock album ever - or Times and Traditions for Dulcimer, the production of which alone makes me weep. There are few truly Godlike figures in the Revival - MacColl, Lloyd, Bellamy, and, of course, Bill Leader. Respect, honour, and eternal deference to the Lee Perry / Phil Spector / Connie Plank / Martin Hannet / Manfred Eicher of Folk Music.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 07:40 AM

To call Bill Leader an "idiot" just shows how little you known about the man. Without him, the folk world would be a much poorer place.He is one of the outstanding people behind the Britsh folk revival of the 60's and he recorded some of the greatest singers and musicians of the time. Without him, the world would be a far poorer place today.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 08:47 AM

I know nothing about the man. I simply observe the appalling recording quality and perhaps the pressing.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 08:48 AM

Why have these early albums not been remastered and issued on CD?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: RolyH
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 09:18 AM

Here we go!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: gnomad
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 09:40 AM

You were lucky to be able to listen to the LP, Bonzo, there are not that many copies around.

Recording quality? Older technology of course, but I'll grant that there were higher-quality examples from that era. Not knowing the circumstances of the recording a fair judgement is hard to reach. You could (if you wish) record it to H/Drive then tweak it to your own satisfaction.

Why no remaster? See numerous earlier threads on Bulmer and/or Celtic music. When you have read them you will conclude that a decently-remastered reissue would be a lovely, but seriously unlikely, event.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Gareth Merengue
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 09:50 AM

if you knew nothing about the man, why did you call him an idiot?

Only an idiot would call another man an idiot whilst knowing little or nothing about him.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 10:27 AM

Getting offended on behalf of somebody else are we???

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 12:24 PM

Not knowing the circumstances of the recording a fair judgement is hard to reach.===

The circumstances were that Bill had not all that long since left Topic Records where he had been chief recording engineer, and set up a studio at his own flat in North Villas, Camden Town, where he produced the early recordings on his Leader & Trailer labels ~~ a pun involved here, of course: the Leader label was from his own name, but reserved for genuine traditional singers, who were, he thought, the *Leaders* of the folk revival; the Trailer label was for the revival singers who followed in their wake.

It is not surprising that the records he produced in such circumstances, even with his enormous expertise, were not always right up to the standard of his best work for Topic.

And, yes, Bonzo: of course we are getting offended on behalf of someone else, an old friend who has been subjected to what his traducer has admitted to being abuse from a position of complete ignorance both of the man and of his circumstances at the relevant time.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 12:36 PM

Red font eh - well I can't help all that, I only judge what I hear from the LP compared with any other from that time or before for that matter. We will play the other one we have tomorrow - "Nic Jones".

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 12:43 PM

In interests of accuracy, that one was what HTML calls 'brown': this one is red.

Hope you enjoy Nic Jones more. I used to love all those early records of Nic's on Bill's label, and didn't get too twitchy about the recording quality.

~M~

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 01:01 PM

Yes I can see that now - the red is a bit hard on the eyes for a Sunday!

One thing I may be forgetting is that perhaps accoustic guitars were not close miked at that time, and didn't necessarily have new strings for a recording session, as would have been more the case by the time Penguin Eggs was recorded.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 01:24 PM

Sorry ~~ they say green is a soothing colour, don't they? ~ It's why theatres had green rooms for the cast to relax in.

Drift - drift - you are drifting off to sleeeeeppp...

zzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 01:36 PM

My latest CD consists mostly of field recordings and the quality is not great. On top of that, I was beginning to lose my voice and that didn't help either.
Sometimes you just have to settle for you can get, and pretty good is better than nothing.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 03:51 PM

Bonzo..
your insults are astounding.
Do a bit of reseach at Rod Sradlins Musical Traditions site...And you will find 4 or 5 pages of LPs that Bill produced during his career.
Sadly, a lot of the LP's at the time were produced during a world wide shortge of vinyl...(remember the thin very flexible records of the time?) Probably made of old recycled car tyres!
I can only agree with others about Bills skills as an engineer/producer. You've just got a crap pressing...
If you are really that bothered...You take on Dave Bulmer...many have tried, none have succeeded.
I'd be interested to see how you get on.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Little Robyn
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 04:26 PM

Just remember it was recorded about 40 years ago - the technology was probably the best for the early 70s. Plus the record will have had many playings. Maybe it's your stylus that's at fault???
Robyn

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 04:56 PM

"Just remember it was recorded about 40 years ago - the technology was probably the best for the early 70s. Plus the record will have had many playings. Maybe it's your stylus that's at fault???
Robyn"

No, new stylus, played LP maybe twice since buying it new. Have you heard any Les Paul recordings from the 40s and 50s??

I've heard what a complete arsehole Bulmer is, but that is another matter.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Little Robyn
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 05:30 PM

Where did you get a new Bill Leader recording? Time travel?
Or is it a pirated version in which case quality might have suffered?
I'm just curious to know where to obtain new old recordings - mine are all 40 plus years old.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: gnomad
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 06:18 PM

Thank you, ~Michael~, for the background info on the circumstances of this recording. I had a feeling something like that had gone on, but lacked the specific details.

I only get to hear a digital copy (untweaked) of a well-worn original of this LP, it may lack something in the recording but it is still a damn good listen.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Martin Spector-Visconti
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 06:30 PM

It's a laugh innit ?

Ever since home record players started sprouting more and more knobs & switches and glowing LED's,
every know-all hi-fi enthusiast thinks he's the world's greatest undiscovered record producer..

So then Bonsai3rdleg, how about some audio links to your recorded masterpieces ???

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 11:35 PM

Well, my well played LP is a bit crackly nowadays, but stands up surprisingly well. And the arrangements and seques are outstanding. I think it was the first time on a Folk LP that anyone had tried that technique. It was Nics idea, I think, but Bill had the skills to do the edits. Same technique was used in places on Devil To A Stranger.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:21 AM

···Ever since home record players started sprouting more and more knobs & switches and glowing LED's,every know-all hi-fi enthusiast thinks he's the world's greatest undiscovered record producer..
So then Bonsai3rdleg, how about some audio links to your recorded masterpieces ???===
,,,,
Tho I have opposed much of what Bonzo said, I can't feel this is quite a knockdown argument, Martin SV. Goes back to the old "you can't be a critic if you can't do it yourself" argument on which we have had so many threads.

As the great Dr Johnson put it ""You may abuse a tragedy, though you cannot write one. You may scold a carpenter who has made you a bad table, though you cannot make a table. It is not your trade to make tables."
Boswell: Life

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 06:46 AM

'Noah's Ark Trap' was one of my favourite folk albums, but Bonzo is not entirely wrong in saying that the production values were different to what was around then, never mind now. It's some time since I listened to his earlier LPs 'Ballads & Songs' and 'Nic Jones', but from memory they had a much harder sound than 'Noah's Ark Trap'. 'Penguin Eggs' is certainly sharper than NAT to my ears.

However, it's the very warm fuzziness of the sound on NAT that - together with the track segues Ralphie was talking about - gives that album it's uniquely hypnotic quality. It's still the best of Nic albums for me, and if I were to hear a remastered version with more top end and clarity (very unlikely for reasons much discussed previously!), I'm sure I wouldn't enjoy it half as much.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Guest - CalpeMike
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 10:10 AM

Well done Bonzo. "Light the blue touch paper" springs to mind.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 01:57 PM

"Well done Bonzo. "Light the blue touch paper" springs to mind."

I'm not quite sure whose side you are on here?

Is that Calpe in Spain?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: pavane
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 04:49 PM

I don't think the residents of "Mons Calpe" aka Jebel Tarik, would agree they were in Spain. The Gibraltarians have been fighting against that for a LONG time.

Afraid my copies of Nic Jones and Ballads & Songs, bought when newly released, are well-worn. But still brilliant.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 05:01 AM

Played our copy of Nic Jones over breakfast, which sounds like it was recorded with one mic placed about 10 feet away. For a 40 year old LP it's in very good condition though and hardly played so I'll be attempting to create a digitally remastered copy more to my liking.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 05:59 AM

I don't know Bill Leader or any of the other record label operators from the late 60s/early 70s but there's a bit of a quandary here (if that's the right word). Yes, loads of great albums by great artists would never have existed without his efforts and the efforts of people like him. But at the same time, there's no getting away from the fact that the sound quality isn't always what we would expect nowadays.

That's not necessariy a criticism - I often find modern digital recordings quite hard to listen to for any length of time. There's an awful lot of information being sent to the ear at once and it just gets tiring having to absorb it all. Plus there's too much reverb all over the place (thanks a bunch, Clannad!).

Going back to some of the albums I remember from the early 70s by Dick Gaughan, the Boys of the Lough, the Dransfields and so on, they do tend to sound a bit muffled compared to (for instance) 'A Handful Of Earth'. Another example is the difference in sound between Christy Moore's 'Prosperous' and the first Planxty LP. The Planxty LP was produced and engineered by people with a background in pop music and a lot more money seems to have been spent on it. You can just hear everything a lot better. As has been said before, Bill Leader worked with much more limited resources and can't have expected to make much money from any of the albums he produced. The wonder is that most of these albums got made at all.

I remember buying the first Boys of the Lough album when it came out and being rather disappointed with the sound quality compared to the first Planxty album (which appeared a few months earlier). Didn't make the music any less good but it took a while for me to get used to the sound of it and appreciate the music properly. Now I wouldn't part with it for anything.

Of course, if you were 16 in 1973 anything that didn't sound like 'Dark Side Of The Moon' was a dodgy recording.

As for 'digitally remastering' your copy of the 'Noah's Ark Trap', I'm not sure I'd bother. The sound of these albums is as much a part of our memories of these artists and their music as the music itself. It is what it is and I don't see any reason to mess with it - unless you want it to sound like Paolo Nuitini.

Can't help wondering if all this stuff about 'top end clarity' says more about our ears as we all get older.

At the risk of tempting fate, it's nice that no-one's mentioned the 'B-' word yet....

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:10 AM

"One Microphone, 10 feet away"? How do you explain how all the other musos got recorded ....IN STEREO" Let me explain...It's a new-fangled concept called "Multitracking" In it's infancy in the 70's, Not sure whether Bill had 4 or 8 track. Even so...
Noahs Ark Trap is brilliant. You've just a crap Vinyl LP.
Why not contact Mr Bulmer. He might send you the original tapes...(If they've changed their role from propping up a wonky coffee table...)
Bonzo, You really did get out of bed the wrong side this morning, didn't you?
OK. You're going to do a "Digitally Re-Mastered version" are you?
Woop-Di-Woo. Don't think I'll want a copy. But, then...as all your recordings are bootlegs anyway.
Bonzo. You are talking to people on here who have far more knowledge than you...If you want keep on digging....who are we to stop you.
Noah and Devil are the best two revival recordings I've ever heard.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:15 AM

There goes the neighbourhood.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:21 AM

For the record, I think all my old Leader/Trailer albums are great and I wouldn't want to change the way they sound in the slightest. 'Lord Of All I Behold' is a fantastic LP - tends to be overshadowed by its predecessor. Unfairly, I think.

I wish someone would release the several sessions Nic Jones did for John Peel in the early 70s. Maybe someone knows something about that.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: nickp
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:29 AM

Ralphie's the fount of knowledge about the BBC recordings I think. I'm sure he'll drop by before long.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 07:00 AM

I do seem to have touched on a hallowed portal - and a touchy one at that!!!!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 07:06 AM

"But, then...as all your recordings are bootlegs anyway."

That is a rather sweeping assumption Ralphie. I don't remember you ever visiting our house in order to review our collection?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 08:32 AM

I have copies (what few there are) of what remains of Nics Peel sessions.
Can't do anything with them. It's pitiful that so many tapes were thrown away. That was how it was.
Bonzo...Why on earth would I want to visit your house?
The very thought....Oh Never mind.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:27 AM

Indeed, this is all becoming rather silly.

However, a touch of Aphex Aural Exiter can make old recordings a little "sharper" - I still have a board that I built back in the 1980s from the factory circuit.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:32 AM

Just playing NAT at the moment - considering the circumstances in which it was recorded by Bill, with the equipment and in the environment available to him, it's wonderful. "Annachie Gordon, in style and tone, reminds me of recordings of Bert Jansch.

So, Bonzo - a straight disagreement with you. You think it's crap - I don't.

Wouldn't mind hearing some of your recordings, as you're obviously an expert. You can check out mine on YouTube.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:35 AM

Aphex Aural Exiter can make old recordings a little "sharper"

Aaargh! I remember one of my old recordings getting severely damaged by one of those.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:42 AM

The Aphex Aural Exciter is something to be used sparingly, often to bring vocals forward in a mix. If you think you can improve NAT with one of those, I'd be interested to hear the result.

However, it's all in the individual's ears, isn't it...?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:50 AM

As are other things, Will. Last thing, or person, I would want to be reminded of when listening to Nic would be Bert Jansch, whose resolutely affected laid-backery I could never abide. Still, de gustibus 'n' all that...

~M~

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:54 AM

Yes - I wasn't comparing the music of Nic and Bert - just the recording quality. I've got most of the Leader/Trailer recordings, and there's certainly a family resemblance in the collected LPs.

I don't mind Bert - used to be quite a fan 40 years ago, not very much now - but I got seriously pissed off by the pretentious sleeve notes on the first album, written by one Keith de Groot (whoever he was).

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 10:09 AM

I consigned my Aural Esciter to the great Ancient Equipment skip in the sky...Years ago...
Bonzo...Try keeping up...at least into the last part of the 20th century. There's a good chap.
Bonzo. I really don't get it. On the one hand you admire Nics Singing/Playing/Arrangements, and then you have a pop at the technology available at the time...It's a bit like saying, I love Joseph Taylors way of singing, but why didn't he record it digitally, instead of on a wax cylinder? the answer. Because it was the early 20th century, and that is all there was.
And the very fact that you mention an Aural Exciter anyway speaks volumes for your audio skills.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 10:16 AM

Like others before me, I think there's a warmth in vinyl that's rarely achieved by digital recording. The first CDs, in particular, were extremely acid in tone, and many of the so-called remasterings from vinyl to CD were inferior to the originals.

Even old 78rpm records have a unique quality that can be ruined by poor remastering. One of the experts in this field - now, alas, gone from us - was jazz musician John R.T. Davies. Anything remastered by him is worth having.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 10:26 AM

"And the very fact that you mention an Aural Exciter anyway speaks volumes for your audio skills."

No it speaks volumes for my soldering skills!!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Martin Spector-Visconti
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 10:45 AM

.. precisely, Bonsai3rdleg..

Judging by their website and youtube audio demos,
quite a few respected boutique 'vintage guitar pedal' clone builders
are completely crap guitar players..

but they are very handy with an ex factory circuit schematic and a soldering iron.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: pavane
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 02:07 PM

I also have one of Nic's John Peel sessions - copyright still belongs to the BBC, I believe. But his real strength in my opinion was as a live performer. I have a tape I recorded live in 1973 - his performance of Clyde Water was far more exciting than his recorded version - as was his Warlike lads of Russia.
Yes, the recording quality from a 1970's Cassette records was poor - but the gig is still electrifying.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 03:31 PM

Absolutely!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: johnadams
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 08:34 PM

Will Fly wrote:

Just playing NAT at the moment - considering the circumstances in which it was recorded by Bill, with the equipment and in the environment available to him, it's wonderful. "Annachie Gordon, in style and tone, reminds me of recordings of Bert Jansch.

For reference:

Noah's Ark Trap was recorded in Bill's studio in the basement of his house in Greetland, West Yorkshire. I attended some of the sessions because my wife (Chris Coe) was one of the session musicians. I spent a lot of time in that studio along with my good friend the late John Gill who was a well respected recording engineer and Bill's sidekick for several years.

The album was recorded via a Raindirk desk on to a medium quality multi-track recorder (ie. not as good as an Ampex or a Scully but fine for the job - I can't recall the make at the moment) using Dolby A noise reduction.

The walls were undressed stone giving good dispersion and there was a medium amount of sound treatment. It wasn't a high end studio such as Livingstone or Strawberry but it did the job.

As I remember, the vocal mic was a brilliant old valve driven AKG C12 and the instruments were miked on AKG C414s but memory might not serve accurately.

I'm not sure what Bonzo3Legs is listening to or on but my copy seems to have adequate top end frequencies and the balance seems fine. I don't think the LP is loud compared with others because Bill didn't favour lots of compression which is what you need to get a loud vinyl cut. I would think that many discs of the time were the same - a wide dynamic range combined with a quieter cut.

It was fine middle range technology for its time and Bill's ability to use it is beyond question - he was a master recordist in his time. Describing him as an 'idiot' is just plain offensive. Others have said why in earlier posts.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 02:40 AM

John...Thanks for that breakdown of the sessions (oh to have been there, you lucky bugger!) C12/414's..Thats posh, and expensive!
I think that you have put an end to Bonzos diatribe. No doubt he'll be back complaining about something else.
Considering (as you say) the equipment that Bill ahd Johnny Gill had at their disposal, between them, they made some magnificant, nay seminal recordings in that period, Bonzo has just got a naff pressing, that's all.
My one regret is that I never met John Gill. From what I understand, one of the finest engineers of recording acoustic music of his era.
As an aside, I'm pretty sure that Beatles used C12's as vocal mics, judging by the pictures I've seen. If it's good enough for Abbey Road!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 02:42 AM

Im listening to an LP - what else?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 04:02 AM

An apology from the perpetrator of this thread is long overdue.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 04:45 AM

Nigel...Couldn't agree more...But, he is entitled to his opinion. I'm with John Adams. (who was there) Bill Leader and John Gill produced some of the finest recordings of the revival in that era, and without their work, we wouldn't be able to hear it today.....(Oh....we can't...Wonder why?)
The problem isn't with Bonzo and his poor quality LP. The problem is with Dave Bulmer who will not negotiate with the original artists, and release the tapes (If they are still playable).
Is he waiting until they all die? For what purpose? What does he hope to achieve?
Bonzo is unimportant really. But he has raised the Celtic Music problem again. Which is a good thing.
Regards and Respect to you Nigel.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Gareth Merengue
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:21 AM

I don't think Bonzo3legs will apologise, he's far too busy enjoying his moment in the sun. Fair enough; some people don't have much going on in their lives so small cheap thrills are valuable.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:24 AM

(If they are still playable).

Indeed. I'm told that, in the case of old reel-to-reel tapes, one play through is sometimes all it takes to strip the surface from the tape - and therefore - to be safe - the transcription has to be captured on the first play.

Lord knows what condition the the Bulmer stash is in after all these years.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 06:50 AM

Sadly Will. I think you are right. The Master tapes of all these seminal artists might be long gone. Maybe thats why Bulmer isn't negotiating with anyone. Maybe he hasn't got any negotiating chips left in his locker.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 09:50 AM

The factory pressed silver "Bright Phoebus" CD that some of us were duped unaware into buying off Amazon
from I believe a Bulmer associated seller a few years ago
sounded ok on first quick impression,
but revealed horrible vocal distortion on decent gear and studio headphones.

a shite amateurish vinyl transfer ???
degraded master tape ????

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 10:25 AM

"a shite amateurish vinyl transfer"

That may be my answer then.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkrolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 10:58 AM

For the sake of clarity I s'pose I should be more specific..

"in the absence of usable Bright Phoebus master tapes, perhaps a shite amateurish vinyl to CD transfer ????"

I'm aware many of the original pressing were flawed
[off centre hole ???].

But even if 'Bulmer' was using his best 'mint' LP to digitize for CD pressing
would that vocal distortion have been a flawed artifact of careless early 70's vinyl mastering.
Or even passed unnoticed at the time on the studio master tape ????

..or just some hopeless tool using a decent sounding distortion free LP
but overloading & clipping his digital recorder inputs
in too much careless haste to press up a batch of dodgy Cds
to cash in on the Radio 4 documentary.. !!!???

Lets just hope a pristine distortion free master tape is secretly archived at some mystery location
under professional storage conditions.....????????

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 11:16 AM

Has anyone tried the British Library? An album of mine from 1973 was remastered and rereleased a couple of years ago by a European label and they borrowed the master tapes from the British Library to do it - I saw a photo of them. I was very surprised they'd been kept at all, but apparently it was standard practice, even with small labels.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 11:36 AM

Smokey.
I very much doubt that Bulmer has supplied the British Library with any Master tapes. He keeps them very close to home (Quite how he keeps them is a different matter!)
The Bright Phoebus release was a travesty. Luckily, not many people bought it..

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 11:46 AM

It would have been the original company who deposited them there, not Bulmer. Does anyone actually know whether he has them at all? Owning the rights doesn't necessarily mean possession of the tapes.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 11:46 AM

The Legal Deposit requirement for copies of all books to be deposited in national libraries, which has existed for hundreds of years, is - as far as I recall - voluntary for recorded sound.

And a search of the BL's integrated catalogue reveals no entries for Nic Jones.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 04:13 PM

Smokey.
Bill Leader hasn't had the tapes for years. They are all in Dave Bulmers lair ...Very unlikely that he would have sent them to any national archive. (As I say, even if they still exist)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:20 PM

There's a BL entry for The Noah's Ark Trap - look for 1LP0130233. It says it's a disc, but it says that on my album's entry too, and that is actually two reels of tape, one for each side, with all the details written on the outside of the boxes. I'd do a clicky straight there, but it seems to run on a script of some sort which prevents that.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 08:05 PM

On closer inspection it looks as though it was John/Sue Zollman who deposited whatever the BL have. This is the full entry:

--------------------------------------------------------------
The Noah's ark trap

TRAILER LER 2091

LIST RECORDINGS:        1LP0130233

Principal performer:        Jones, Nic (male singer)

Country of origin:        England

Product title:        The Noah's ark trap

Record company name:        Trailer

Label:        TRAILER LER 2091

Label match:         TRAILERLER2091

(P) date:         1977

Product notes:         This is a reissue by Highway of the original Trailer recording

Format:         disc 2 sides 33 rpm 30 cm stereo

Holdings

PRODUCT                 Copies         Material         Location

1LP0130233            1                  DISC            Store

--------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 02:34 AM

You should be able to listen to it at the British Library.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: JHW
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 04:11 PM

Played the whole album last night. Agree on the lack of top. Switched in and turned my treble knob full boost or full cut and made no difference.
I don't though recall noticing this back in 1977 when as new it was played again and again, guess I was just happy to hear Nic.
Here he is more recently, still that voice.
(Link thanks to Fretboard Journal. Nic Jones article in recent edition.)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 01:56 AM

JHW. Was at the QEH gig....Astonishingly good, and what a great guitarist Joe is...

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 05:38 AM

Recording studios could get a good sound back then, just witness the prog rock offerings and the ability to quite accurately get an orchestra balanced. I was playing with 48 track in the late '70s and the equipment was far from new. AKG mic references take me back too!

That said, folk acts weren't in the megabuck category and the quality of recordings reflected the budgets somewhat. True, a good sound engineer and producer could compensate somewhat but missing highs and lows are a feature of the equipment being used and the treatment of the master cut.

I suppose it is part of the folk tradition that Nic Jones didn't have access to the same gear as Rick Waleman. Live with it.

If you can't live with it, the Cheapest audio cleaning software, even shareware could rack it up a notch or two.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 12:58 PM

I was given a copy of this LP on CD-R, so I don't know how/when it was transferred from vinyl. This thread prompted me to listen again critically both to the music and the sound. Regarding the sound, I played around using the graphic equaliser on iTunes and listening on a good pair of headphones. It does seem to benefit from a boost of 3-5 dB at 2kHz and above - I wonder whether someone mismatched some Dolby B processing at some point, perhaps my copy went from vinyl to CD via a cassette deck. For those of you with vinyl I'd love to know what it sounds like on a really good record deck.

But much more important is the music..this really is a great record! Just as good as From the Devil to a Stranger and Penguin Eggs. Miles Weatherhill is so powerful and Annachie Gordon is heart-breakingly beautiful. I remember someone (Jack Campin I think) describing this as one of the great Scottish melodies in another Mudcat thread and I have to agree. And then there's 10,000 miles and Isle of France, almost as gorgeous. Just wow...

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 02:24 PM

I boight this when it came out in 1977 and I wouldn't like to say how many times I've played it since. It's never once occurred to me to think about the quality of the recording. Perhaps I have cloth ears, but for me the outstanding thing about this album is the quality of the songs and performances.

It's an outstanding album, as are Nic's other albums. If you can let any perceived technical shortcomings affect your enjoyment, you're missing the point by a mile.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 03:48 PM

Further digging at the British Library Sound Archive reveals not only a different track order to the LP, but that track 'six' of the album is as follows:

1LP0130233 6 TRAILER        
Lord Saltoun And Auchanachie/Traditional
Jones, Nic
Nic JONES (Vocal and Guitar)
RECORDING

They didn't get that title from the LP or the sleeve, but it's quite possible that the master tape might bear that title, and have the tracks in a different order to the final release.

Similar track order and title discrepancies can be found for 1LP0130271 and 1LP0130204, though I can't find the "Nic Jones" album at all. Still, it would appear very likely that the stereo masters still exist for the others.

This information is available from HERE by searching for the reference numbers.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 05:35 PM

Correction - they have the 'Nic Jones' album, its reference number is 1LP0093491.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Chris_S
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 04:53 PM

From Howard "It's an outstanding album, as are Nic's other albums. If you can let any perceived technical shortcomings affect your enjoyment, you're missing the point by a mile."

I can only echo Howard's comments. It's a brilliant album and any hifi issues pale into insignificance when experiencing the wonder of 10,000 Miles and Annachie Gordon. These two are going to fight it out for a place on my desert island list and that is high praise indeed. I wonder if Bonzo actually hears the songs or just listens to the sound his sound system is making?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 05:01 PM

Hi Smokey...It's incredibly unlikely that the British Library have the Master Tapes...They might have the Vinyl...But, that will be it.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 05:20 PM

A lot of the UK pressings were done on recycled vinyl back then, which could be a bit unpredictable. Also, one set of disc stampers would only do so many copies before wearing out, and I'm guessing that the higher frequencies would suffer first. I'd sell my granny's wooden leg for a clean digital copy of 'Devil to a Stranger'..

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 05:28 PM

Ralphie - have a look and draw your own conclusions. Why else would there be any variations in the titles and running order? Also, I know for certain what they've got of mine, obscure though it was. PM me and I'll give you details of that for comparison, but I'm not posting it here as it wasn't folk and it wasn't all that good :-)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 05:39 PM

AFAIK "aural exciters" basically introduce distortion at above maybe 1k to 2k.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 05:42 PM

psychoacoustic enhancement can be used for good or evil..

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Surreysinger
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 05:49 PM

Smokey - the catalogue number and details you have supplied for Noahs Ark Trap quite clearly show that what they are holding is a disc with two sides playable at 33rpm - not a tape of any sort.
"disc 2 sides 33 rpm 30 cm stereo" is shown on the catalogue entry ... and incidentally the catalogue number also indicates that it is an LP. (Another item I was looking at recently, a Betamax tape, had the catalogue number commencing BM, for instance).

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 05:59 PM

"disc 2 sides 33 rpm 30 cm stereo"

As I said earlier, it says that about mine too, but I've seen the tapes.

And again, how come the tracks are in a different order, sometimes with different names?

I suppose an email to them would settle the matter.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Surreysinger
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 08:02 PM

"As I said earlier, it says that about mine too, but I've seen the tapes."
Hadn't seen that. Oh well ...

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bugsy
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 09:44 PM

My copy is on the "Shanachie" label.

Cat no: Shanachie 79003

Track sequence:
Side 1
1. THe Wanton Seed
2. Jackie Tar
3. Ten Thousand Miles
4. The Golden Glove
5. The Indian Lass

Side 2
1. Miles Weatherhill
2. Isle of France
3. Crockery Ware
4. Annachie Gordon

I don't have the facility to play the album at the moment, so cannot comment on the quality.

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Art Thieme
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 11:02 PM

I've enjoyed everything of Nic Jones' music I've ever heard. It was what it was, and it was grand! Everything mentioned here I have transferred to CD using a basic Roxio home program that someone sent to me as a gift. I might've tweaked something along the way, but they all sound very much like the LPs or the cassettes I picked up over the years of Nic's music. That's just what I wanted. And I'm happy to still be able to hear it.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 11:54 PM

British Library entries:

1LP0130233    The Noah's ark trap - PRODUCT
1LP0130233 1 TRAILER Isle Of France/Traditional - RECORDING
1LP0130233 2 TRAILER Wanton Seed/Traditional - RECORDING
1LP0130233 3 TRAILER The Golden Glove - RECORDING
1LP0130233 4 TRAILER Jackie Tar - RECORDING
1LP0130233 5 TRAILER Ten Thousand Miles/Traditional - RECORDING
1LP0130233 6 TRAILER Lord Saltoun And Auchanachie/Traditional - RECORDING
1LP0130233 7 TRAILER Indian Lass/English - RECORDING
1LP0130233 8 TRAILER Crockery Ware/Traditional - RECORDING
1LP0130233 9 TRAILER Miles Weatherhill - RECORDING

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 01:51 AM

Firstly, I'm sure the British Library stuff is an LP...Can't see Bulmer giving away the Master tapes (even if they're still playable, which is highly unlikely, as at least one was used to prop up a wonky table many years ago!)
Art. Glad you can still enjoy Nics work. If you can do Facebook (or know someone who does) Worth checking out the Nic Jones group. Videos of the Old man himself 3 weeks ago at a gig in Londons Queen Elizabeth Hall, singing accompanied by his son Joe playing wonderful guitar It's just a cam-corder video, but to see Nic singing again on stage after all this time.....talk about "Spine tingling" doesn't get close. Hope you get a chance to see it.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 10:53 AM

I like noahs ark trap, but my favourite recording is penguin eggs

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 11:19 AM

If British Library stuff is just an LP, their filing clerk must be psychic or barmy because that track list certainly wasn't copied from any edition of the LP. Likewise the entries for 'Devil to a Stranger' - I've not checked the other two closely yet. I doubt Bulmer ever had the master tapes to the Nic Jones stuff, and sorry, but I just don't believe anyone ever saw one, let alone 'at least one' Nic Jones master tape propping up a wonky table. How short was the leg in question? It's my belief that for whatever reason, either no-one has ever actually asked the British Library what they have, or someone doesn't want it known. Either way, I intend to find out if only just to satisfy my own curiosity.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 11:37 AM

..just adding that now my curiosity has been aroused
I located 2 different lower medium quality coded mp3 downloads of "Noah's Ark Trap"
and they are dramaticly different in tone quality.

One is bass heavy and boomy, the other light and airy with hardly any bottom end.

There are just so many technical & equipment factors to consider
accounting for these extreme tonal differences.

Though, I do remember being a teenage HiFi buff back in the 70's
and how much pot luck determined
the sound quality of any brand new vinyl LP pressing.

BTW, to what extent were the Leader recordings sold as cassettes or even consumer reel to reel tape versions ?

That might offer another option for reasonable quality transfers to CD.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,PatrickH
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 12:15 PM

It's up on YouTube. Lovely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc4T12JzNWI

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 12:41 PM

I know someone who worked with Bulmer in the 80's He's not sure whether it was Reel 1 or 2 of the Master of Nics first LP (1/4 inch) But, It was definitely propping up a table.
Quite where it is now, we'll probably never know.
PFR...I don't think that Leader stuff ever made it to cassette. It was very much a cottage industry, Don't think that the cash would have run to that....(Let alone Reel to Reel releases!)
Might be wrong, but, I've never seen a Leader cassette.

---

It appears the poster is Ralphie. I think it was an honest mistake on his part, intending to address a message to Smokey, not from. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: johnadams
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 01:10 PM

As a Leader/Trailer artist I don't remember ever having cassettes of any of our albums or seeing cassettes of anybody else. They were certainly never released on reel to reel as that format had been superceded by that time.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 05:37 PM

Er, I'd like to make it very clear that "Guest, Smokey" was NOT me.. I hope that can be confirmed by Joe or someone.

It would seem that somewhere, a cage has been rattled.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Surreysinger
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 05:47 PM

I have a sneaky suspicion that someone meant to head it up as a reply to you, and just put your name in the wrong box Smokey. Doesn't look like malice aforethought, or rattling of cages. :-)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 06:21 PM

Ralphie,I think you are overreacting.
I think there is an element of truth in bonzos remarks.
I think the recording of penguin eggs is better, the music on both lps are good.
Bill Leader, I recorded with him, one of the good things about Bill, was his sympathy with the music, he wasnt just a very competent recording engineer,he was someone with a great enthusiam, knowledge and love for the music, you could ask his opinion,he was someone whose opinion you respected, he was someone who made you feel at ease when one was working with him, this is really important.
my only criticism, I have of Bill Leader, and its a very minor criticism, was his habit of reusing old tapes and re recording over them, it is understandable when everything is being run on a low budget, but IMO it does not produce the best sound, furthermore if a company is paying for the recording time and tapes they surely have a right to insist on new tapes for recording.
Bill was a very good recording engineer with a great love for traditional music, which isIMO important.
I have worked with two other recording engineers, who were on a par with Bill, one was Dave Howard[BBC trained]and the other was Chris Pollington[ who played with Strawhead], but the people who are on a par with Bill are few and far between

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 06:33 PM

Surreysinger - yes, you are probably right, that makes sense.

These are the British Library entries for 'Devil to a Stranger', although the album title is nowhere to be found. Notice the running order of the tracks and the variation in titles. The first item is most likely the LP (described as 'product') and the rest is, I am convinced, a tape ('recording') possibly with the tracks in the order in which they were recorded, which would account for the last two items being together.


1LP0130271 [no title given] TRANSATLANTIC LTRA 507 - PRODUCT

1LP0130271 1 TRANSATLANTIC - Master Kilby/Somerset - RECORDING

1LP0130271 2 TRANSATLANTIC - Billy Don't You Weep For Me/Anonymous - RECORDING

1LP0130271 3 TRANSATLANTIC - Far From Home/Traditional - RECORDING

1LP0130271 4 TRANSATLANTIC - William Glenn/Traditional - RECORDING

1LP0130271 5 TRANSATLANTIC - Newport Street/English - RECORDING

1LP0130271 6 TRANSATLANTIC - Lochmaben Harper/Traditional - RECORDING

1LP0130271 7 TRANSATLANTIC - Green Mossy Banks Of The Lea/English - RECORDING

1LP0130271 8 TRANSATLANTIC - Lake of Coolfin - RECORDING

1LP0130271 9 TRANSATLANTIC - Little Heathy Hill/Irish - RECORDING

1LP0130271 10 TRANSATLANTIC - Some Say The Devil Is Dead/Irish - RECORDING

1LP0130271 11 TRANSATLANTIC - Singer's Request/Anonymous - RECORDING

1LP0130271 12 TRANSATLANTIC - Singer's Request/Anonymous - RECORDING

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 08:50 PM

These tapes can't be the actual ones which were used to cut the master discs - they would have to have the tracks in the right order because that job had to be done in one shot per side. They have to be the tapes from which the final master was recorded, in which case the recording quality should be better still, as it's a generation younger. In which case, Bulmer may have had some tapes, but not these. Maybe he never thought to ask the BL either..

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 05:57 AM

Joe apologies! That post was from me...Just typed in Smokeys name by mistake! Doh!
(and apologies to Smokey too for stealing your identity!....Nothing personal!)
As far as the tapes are concerned. There must have been a lot of careful editing to have happened to segue the tracks as per the original LP's.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 07:36 AM

The British Library listening service should be utilised to the full in whatever way deemed appropriate.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 09:01 AM

"The British Library listening service should be utilised to the full in whatever way deemed appropriate."

..even if it means wearing out and ruining invaluable fragile archived original reference recordings for selfish listening pleasure ???

or does the BL actually have the money and resources to ensure digital copies
are available for 'on demand' public listening to every audio document it stores for the nations heritage ???

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 09:19 AM

ps.. one of my jobs in a previous life was making 35mm copies & 10x8 prints of every
old photo and glass negative in a specialist museums dusty ramshackle archive.
So I do have some understanding of the sheer hard work and financial constictions that apply to such projects
to enable adequate public access and serious expert research.

Luckily [and because I worked my arse off] the work was just about completed
before state funding was arbitrarily withdrawn and I lost that
very interesting & rewarding job.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 09:25 AM

..even if it means wearing out and ruining invaluable fragile archived original reference recordings for selfish listening pleasure ???

Oh for heavens sake what are you talking about? they are there for the listening, it's a public service.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 09:37 AM

Hi PFR. I have no knowledge of photos at all, and respect to those who do. However, I do archive audio. And, I think it unreasonable to allow my work to be given away willy-nilly to people who just think they should be "allowed" to own it, (for no money). I also have total contempt for people recording gigs without the artists permission. On the rare occasions when I play in public, I keep a beady eye on the audience... Sessions ...No problem, People will say, "Can you play such and such a tune, I want to learn it" My answer is "Fine....Will probably get it wrong now!" And I normally did!
Ny point being, courtesy is everything. Ask nicely, and you shall be rewarded....Bootleg something, expect a slap in the mouth. I'm first in the line!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 09:37 AM

you know exactly what I'm talking about, or at least you should
considering you persist in portraying yourself
as some kind of experienced 'expert' on vintage mechanical analog recording media...???

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 09:42 AM

..just clarifying I was addresing Bonzo,

not Ralphie who I respect & defer to as a genuine audio expert and valuable asset to mudcat community......

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 09:56 AM

I address letters!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 10:11 AM

Bonzo, it really is difficult sometimes

to distinguish between when you are just jovially talking 'bollocks'

or way out on a limb spouting 'complete & utter bollocks' ?????

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 10:42 AM

PFR...Not the slightest bit offended by your comments. Never have been. Bonzo, on the other hand..... Words fail me.....

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 11:05 AM

I like "complete and utter", and it's so appropriate for you socialist ogs!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 02:29 PM

Ralphie - no apology needed, I can see it was just a mistake now.

As far as the tapes are concerned. There must have been a lot of careful editing to have happened to segue the tracks as per the original LP's.

It would take some careful editing to reproduce identical masters to the originals as they were obviously done 'on the fly'. I don't suppose we'll ever really know how carefully it was done at the time, but with today's digital tackle it'd be infinitely easier to reproduce than it would have been with analogue gear. Fiddley, but not impossible. I reckon I could do 'Devil', given digital versions of the raw material. The relative levels of the songs would be easy enough to get right, and the cross-fading on the joins could be automated and rehearsed/fettled ad infinitum until they were spot-on. I don't know 'Noah' so well, but the sound of 'Devil' is practically embedded in my DNA. The really tricky bit, I think, would be reproducing the 'warmth' of what we are used to hearing. An important factor, and extremely subjective… the crispy bits would have to be handled with extreme caution.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 03:18 PM

Bonzo - I don't think the B.L. would let members of the public get their hands on the tapes, they'd lend the 'product' - the LP. They do let tapes out under certain circumstances though, for re-mastering/releasing or whatever, but I don't know exactly what circumstances or what licences, permissions etc., are required.

In the case of my own album it was a Spanish record company who borrowed the tapes, but for all I know the copying could have been done in the UK, and I suspect that to be the case. Neither I nor the band were even consulted despite, unlike Nic, being fully credited with authorship. Robbery by contract was not an unusual phenomenon back then, and artists were easily swayed by the prospect of twelve inches of vinyl.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 03:39 PM

No, I am referring to the listening service provided by the British Library. Some items can be listened to on a walk in basis, but more usually a listening appointment needs to be booked. The last time I used this service, I listened to a recording of Lark Rise at the Cottesloe Theatre at the Southbank from 1978. At that time, headphones were provided and you sat at one of a number of booths in the listening room.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 03:46 PM

Sorry Bonzo, at cross-purposes there - yes, they might let someone do that I suppose, you'd have to ask.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 03:56 PM

Bonzo, go here and click on the 'contact us' link. It tells you how to make a listening appointment.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 08:40 PM

Just realised there isn't actually any cross-fading on 'Devil', just fade-outs and close joins between the tracks, and some of those are not so pretty close-up. I still love it though. Re-mastering it as it was done would be fairly easy. I notice the vocal sound is weaker on 'Noah's Ark' than 'Devil', not so much bass in it. There's no great difference in the guitar on these computer speakers though. The frequency content of both is what you'd expect from that time, budget, and the media used.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,redmax
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:21 AM

I work at the BL and can confirm that the Sound Archive references are for vinyl LPs only, not master tapes. I've seen the records myself, for what it's worth. The different song titles are most likely the result of a cataloguer's attempt to cross reference songs, to give them a 'uniform title' in library-speak. Regrettably there have never been adequate resources to do this properly, so the Sound Archive's catalogue isn't all it could be.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:48 AM

I think when I listened to Lark Rise it was on tape - I remember a voice come through the headphones telling me that the tape was being changed. Is the listening still done on headphones?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 09:49 AM

Slight thread drift here, but germaine, and may be of interest to Audio anoraks.
Before I left the Beeb, as a light hearted excersise a young friend and I had a competition using a recording of a piece of prose (about 10minutes long) recited by someone with a stutter. Our task was to make the best of it. He chose Sadie (digital editor) I had the tape machine. Who won? I did! by about 2 minutes. He did the physical/digital edits quicker, but, he had to Upload/Download the audio in real time, whereas, I just put the tape on a machine, started at the beginning, and when I got to the end I'd done. One drawback, lots of cuts to my hands with the razor blade!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 11:03 AM

I work at the BL and can confirm that the Sound Archive references are for vinyl LPs only, not master tapes. I've seen the records myself, for what it's worth. The different song titles are most likely the result of a cataloguer's attempt to cross reference songs, to give them a 'uniform title' in library-speak. Regrettably there have never been adequate resources to do this properly, so the Sound Archive's catalogue isn't all it could be.

And the tracks are in a different order because?

Please try to be a little more convincing, 'Redmax'; you're not doing very well so far.

It's perfectly obvious that the titles, track orders and the credits were NOT copied or derived from the LPs. It also seems obvious that the tapes they have are not the master tapes, but that they are what the master tapes were recorded from.

If anyone can paint an alternative scenario which accounts for all the factual evidence so far, I'd be delighted to hear it.
…………………………………

Good anecdote Ralphie, I can almost picture the blood-stained splicing block :-)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 11:09 AM

And the tracks are in a different order because?

Please try to be a little more convincing, 'Redmax'; you're not doing very well so far.

It's perfectly obvious that the titles, track orders and the credits were NOT copied or derived from the LPs. It also seems obvious that the tapes they have are not the master tapes, but that they are what the master tapes were recorded from.

If anyone can paint an alternative scenario which accounts for all the factual evidence so far, I'd be delighted to hear it.


Que.........Meeeester Fawlty??

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 11:24 AM

Eh?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 03:53 PM

Definitely not the Master tapes. If an LP transcription. Why go to the bother of putting the tracks in a different order? Makes no sense. Doesn't realy matter anyway. If anyone released them, Bulmer (or his tame Doberman) would be down on them like a ton of bricks... It's a bit of a red herring actually. One day, It'll all work out...The sad be it is that we will all be dead.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 05:35 PM

Surely it matters that the tapes exist? Outside Bulmer's possession?

Any tapes he might have will be well buggered by now after 30 - 40 years, that's fairly certain. How many bricks does he have these days? Dobermen eat like horses. Besides, if someone did release them he'd get paid as the owner of the rights. I may be wrong in this, but I'm guessing he'd have to take out an injunction against the release, and give a good reason for doing so.

If it was released he'd make money, and it would cost him to try and prevent a release. I believe the expression is 'a no-brainer'.

Regarding the dodgy 'Bright Phoebus' release mentioned above, a comparison of the frequency analyses of the CD and the LP might prove informative.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:10 PM

Couldn't resist looking this up - obviously he didn't have a fit tape for this one:

1CDR0000355        1998
1LP0130258
Bright Phoebus
LIST RECORDINGS:        1CDR0000355
Dubbing of:         1LP0130258
Dubbing of:         TRAILER LES 2076
Product title:        Bright Phoebus
Contents note:         Songs by Lal and Mike Waterson
Product notes:         C7H27QA1549
Dubbing contractor:        Nigel Bewley
(P)/Dub/Rec date:         1998.07.16(dubbing)
Format:         CD-R 1 stereo
Dubbing duration:         36'43"
Media type:         TDK CD-R74
Orig.characteristic:         double sided, microgroove, stereo LP disc, 33 and 1/3 rpm
Eq, NR, etc. applied:         transferred via CEDAR de-clicker and de-crackler to SoundStation for making of intermaster. Digital transfer to CD-R

Holdings
PRODUCT         Copies         Material         Location
1CDR0000355         1         TAPE         Store

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:16 PM

Dammit all, a pristine LP would, last-ditch wise, be a good basis for giving us all a recording to cherish. If anyone has such a beast, stick it in a bank vault for the time being!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 09:17 PM

IF a differently ordered track list and title variation to the LP is evidence that the B.L. has a 'pre-master' tape, (and for the life of me I can't think of another possible explanation) then they seem to have a considerable number of 'lost' gems there, certainly everything of Leader/Trailer that I have and many more besides, some of which I've never heard of. Search HERE for the record number (eg. TRAILER LER 2103) - that gets the page of the LP's entry. From there, click on 'LIST RECORDINGS: 1LP0130244' which leads to the list of tracks. Click on 'Label: TRAILER LER 2103' and you'll get a list of Trailer recordings. Good hunting, anyone who's interested. There must be quite a few people who'd be pleased to learn their recordings have been preserved, whatever the chances of a re-release on CD might be. At least it's possible with the source tapes, and at better sound quality than the original release.

Seems like good news to me.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:09 AM

We received the Facundo Cabral "20 Exitos" CD yesterday, that's 20 Hits of course. Now for all the Bill Leader protection army, the sound quality of these recordings from 1970 and 1971 is superb - but then it was recorded in Argentina of course!!!!!!!!!

I do recommend this CD.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:49 AM

I don't want to turn this into yet another Bulmer-bashing thread, but he reason he behaves as he does seems to be a mystery. He is sitting on a catalogue of potentially valuable (and artisticly priceless) classics which presumably he paid good money for, including not only most of Nic's albums but many other seminal recordings. The biggest part of the cost of producing an album is the studio time, the manufacturing is fairly cheap.

Smokey is right, it should be a 'no-brainer'. Bulmer could have made himself, if not a fortune, at least a sizeable profit. By sitting on these assets he has cost himself money, cost the artists money, destroyed his reputation, and kept this music away from later generations. I can only assume his motive is revenge on the folk scene for some slight, real or imagined.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 08:37 AM

for what it's worth, while I'm reading about subjects that long ago faded from thought & memory...

When I was about 21 and still had acute youthful full frequency hearing
my Dad lashed out some of his hard earned redundancy money
on a rega planar 3 turntable and a couple of cartridges
to cheer himself up after the local factory was closed down due to management & ownership incompetentcy.

At the time, the UK serious Hi Fi market was divided between the traditional warm stodgy dark British reference sound,
and the newly arriving bright harsh detailed revealing Japanese rival tones..

I needed to mass copy a large part of my LP collection to TDK SA90 tapes
to see me through 3 years away returning to education to do a degree.

I tried his British Rega cartridge and just did not think much of its dark woody boomy tones.
But instantly liked the other more expensive import cartridge
[can't remember brand name - Australian manufactured ??.. "Elite" perhaps ..???]
which was perfectly crystal clear and superbly detailed.

In that post 60's popular affordable Hi Fi boom era, when dark versus bright LP tonality was a major divisive issue
in sound production and reproduction aethsthetic 'philosophising',
it is iteresting to consider just how much this might have informed personal creative principles and deliberate EQ choices
for any Leader recordings 'house style'.
Even if his recording equipment was modern enough to capture bright high end detail ???

These days, I can't tolerate too much treble, it hurts & distorts my ageing fragile eardrums..

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 09:55 AM

Another sneaky aside, but relevant as regards hearing. A few months before leaving the Beeb, I was summoned for my Bi-Annual audio check with the nurse. I'd never met her, and she didn't know where I worked. But after sitting in a chair, headphones on, pressing a button when I heard a sound...She analysed the results, showed me the graph, and said "You work with Rock musicians" (She had no clue which department I came froom!)
I asked "How can you tell?" "Well you've got a dip at about 6 Khz in both ears...Above and below that all is fine. .....Close proximity to snare drums being hit very hard....All Group 2 Studio Managers have it...It's not a problem, you're not going deaf, It's just something we recognise on a regular basis!"
Back on topi (Lol!) of monitoring. When I was at Maida Vale, we had a pair of "Boxer" speakers, inset in the Studio walls...Huge buggers...Also a paif either "Aurotones" or "NS10s" much dinkier. And, before my time, apparently a converted mono transistor radio with a Jack plug input!
The idea being that you'd do the main recording on the big buggers, to catch all the nuances, but, would then mix on the little ones. and finally listen on the modified radio, (as that was what most listeners, teenagers would have)
The intriguing thing is that, The vocals, although sounding great and sitting in the mix on the Boxers, came up in level the smaller the speaker! By the time you got to the tranny, you couldn't hear the band!
(A lot of bands didn't get this process, until I played the little mono version, and the cries of "Where's my guitar solo gone") etc.
Sorry to go on, but the relevance is, I have no idea what Bill Leader was listening on. Probably not State of the Art. The whole Leader thing was done on a half-pence from what I understand.
I still submit that Bill and Johnny Gill came up with some of most exciting and life affirming recordings in the 70s and 80s.
We are all richer for the knowledge that they achieved them.
And we are all the poorer to know that have been denied access to something like 140 LP's. All for some petty point scoring excersise.

I hope the souls of Joseph Taylor, Billy Pigg, Cecila Costello, Tony Rose and not least Mike and Lal Waterson will hunt you down in the hereafter.

Sorry for the rant...

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 10:45 AM

Howard - Bulmer was interviewed on the "Bright Phoebus" documentary and asked this very question. His answer was that it wouldn't be worth his while, as there's no demand - the people who say that the 'lost' Leader/Trailer LPs would sell a million are people who have already got the LPs, and they're kidding themselves that anyone else would be interested. He backed this up by referring to his CD-R of "Bright Phoebus", which apparently doesn't sell very well (my heart bleeds for him). In his words, "anyone who wants to get a copy can get one", and the fact that he only sells two or three copies a month shows that there aren't that many people who do want one.

I think this is a lot of nonsense, and that a properly produced, properly promoted re-release of BP would make everyone involved a bob or two (sadly not including Mike or Lal). It seems almost undeniable that Bulmer is in part motivated by bitterness against people on the scene, although I think it would take several hours on the psychiatrist's couch (or down the pub) before he'd admit it. Having said that, I think he has got half a point - we aren't talking huge sales here. If a CD of the Noah's Ark Trap sold as well as Penguin Eggs did when it came out, would it make the album charts?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 10:48 AM

I can only say that the market for 1960s and 1970s "classic" recordings, however well produced, is vanishingly small.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 10:59 AM

Mass produced CDs may be on the way out...

But these days there is a realistic growing nostalgia niche market
for audiophile remastered premium vinyl pressings of approx 1000 units
and 96khz/24bit full dynamics 'unlimited' studio master quality flac downloads.

The business structures are positively viable.....

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 12:32 PM

I'd like to bet that that Dave Bulmer never knew the session tapes were with the library. It rather looks as though only Bill Leader and maybe those very close to him knew that.

There's money to be made out of some of those albums, but not, I suspect, most of them. Small runs of CDs have never been more economically viable though.

Boxed sets and track compilations from the whole catalogue would be the way to shift the stuff which wouldn't be worth doing on its own. I don't like that idea, but that would be the way to make the most money.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: johnadams
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 12:46 PM

Ralphie wrote:

Sorry to go on, but the relevance is, I have no idea what Bill Leader was listening on. Probably not State of the Art. The whole Leader thing was done on a half-pence from what I understand.

15" Tannoy Golds in Lockwood? cabinets.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 01:42 PM

Thanks John...Nice speakers...No problem with them then...(Didn't realise he was so rich!...I couldn't afford them in those days...Lucky devil!!!)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 02:22 PM

wot these !!!???? definitely can't afford then now either !!!!!!!!!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VINTAGE-TANNOY-15-GOLDS-LE1-ASMk3-LOCKWOOD-cabinets-/270745551664

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: johnadams
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 02:29 PM

Thinking about it they might have been 12". I was just smaller then. ;-)

Bill used the best he could afford and rarely bought anything budget. He even sometimes mastered on to a Nagra if I remember right, although he had a more conventional mastering machine, maybe a studio Phillips or Ampex.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 02:47 PM

The mainstream record labels did very well (before the internet came along) selling CDs to people who already had the LPs. There's now a new generation of folk enthusiasts who've never heard these classics, unless their parents have a copy. I'm sure there's a demand. They wouldn't sell millions, and probably the majority of the catalogue is pretty worthless, but they'd probably sell more than many CDs brought out today by young hopefuls.

You can get 1000 CDs manufactured, printed and wrapped for around £650. Of course there are other costs, in particular remastering and MCPS, but say £1500 total cost - that's £1.50 each. Sell them all for a tenner and that's £850 profit. If you went for a larger run (and I'd wager Nic's albums would sell more than that) the unit costs are lower and the profit higher. Not worthwhile? and that's without digital sales, which cost virtually nothing to distribute.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 02:57 PM

"Sell them all" is the key phrase there, I think! But I'm sure what you say is right, or at least that it's just as valid as the pessimistic take on it. Unfortunately it's not me you need to convince.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 04:13 PM

The company which re-issued my album did a limited edition of 500 copies from a recut master on virgin vinyl, and I assume it was worth their while doing so. £24.91 on Amazon at the moment. I honestly have no idea why.. There was no CD version.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 06:16 PM

If Mr Bulmer doesn't think it's worthwhile releasing Noah's Ark Trap as a proper CD because it will never make money, I'll give him a hundred quid for the masters. There. He's be a hundred quid better off than he is now. Better than a kick up the arse! I look forward to your PM, Dave.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 09:45 PM

Bulmer either doesn't have the masters, or he doesn't have tapes fit to use. When he bought up the rights, he probably assumed he was getting all the tapes in existence and what he did get were no use. He probably felt as though he'd been 'stitched up', and didn't want to appear stupid. I don't believe he's held back potentially profitable releases for any other reason than thinking there were no tapes fit to use at all. The 'Bright Phoebus' CDR was taken from an LP because he was completely unaware that the British Library had the source tapes all the time. That much seems obvious.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 10:06 PM

Howard - you missed a zero off your profit..

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 05:49 AM

Interesting that Buddy Holly's home recordings, known as the "Apartment Tapes" are infinitely better sound quality that my pressing of NAT - these were recorded I think in 1958, some 13 years prior.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 06:19 PM

'Noah's Ark', et al., was mastered from a third generation recording (at best), whereas Holly's was very likely taken from the original reels and enhanced as well as they could get it - not really a fair comparison. Whilst some of Leader's practices may not have been ideal, I reckon you might well have a duff copy, Bonzo. Just out of interest, is yours an original or the Trailer release?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 06:45 AM

Mine is the Trailer release dated 1977 LER 2091 with a yellow label.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: JHW
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 07:05 AM

My Noah's Ark Trap is 1977 LER 2091. I bought it back then as soon as it came out? What was the 'original'?
I have Ballads and Songs, LER 2014, NAT as above, From the Devil to a Stranger LTRA 507, Penguin Eggs 12TS411, did I miss some?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 09:40 AM

I'll be cutting my work to 4 days a week next month, so perhaps a trip to the British Library will be in order!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Reinhard
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 09:44 AM

JHW: Nic Jones, LER 2027, 1971

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Morris-ey
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 10:35 AM

I think BonzoTroll is more interested in hi-fi than music - sad.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 11:07 AM

just to put our minds at rest.....

On the reasonable assumption the British Library has insufficient funds & resources
to carefully make publicly accessible digital copies of all it's audio archives;

would the BL actually attempt to spool up and play
fragile easily worn out & destroyed unique archived master tapes
at the listening request of any & all members of the public ???

[same question applies to studio acetate discs and rarest surviving
so far unplayed vinyl discs in the BL archive ???]

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 01:26 PM

"would the BL actually attempt to spool up and play
fragile easily worn out & destroyed unique archived master tapes
at the listening request of any & all members of the public ???"

In my experience - yes!!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 01:38 PM

so the fact that irreplaceable and invaluable tapes of unique cultural significance,
may be damaged beyond repair
as long as you satisfy your personal whim to listen

[.. or surreptitiously record the headphone output for distribution
and extra ratio credits at "Dime" ????]

is of no consequence or concern to you ?????




.. I presume we already know the answer to that question ....

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 01:54 PM

Excellent idea!!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 02:41 PM

Mine is the Trailer release dated 1977 LER 2091 with a yellow label.

Mine's the Highway release - there may well be some difference in quality between the two as they were pressed on separate occasions, probably in a different place.

The mix, as Ralphie so rightly observed, will appear to vary according to what speakers are used. In short, the cheaper the speakers, the more the vocal range tends to be favoured. On my copy the vocal sound is tonally weak in comparison to 'Devil' but not particularly quieter in the mix.

My copy of 'Devil' seems to be a hybrid - the record itself has a standard Transatlantic label, the back of the sleeve says it's Logo Records but has a Trailer sticker on it, and the front says as part of the design 'The Leader Tradition'. Whatever, it was good enough to sell me a Fylde guitar (or two).

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 02:43 PM

says it's Logo Records but has a Trailer sticker on it

Sorry, I meant a 'Highway' sticker.. babble, babble, babble....

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 05:54 PM

Message to Dick Miles re-using tapes.
It was done on a daily basis, at the BBC on Peel sessions. First job of the day, before the band arrived was to wipe the mulitrack from yesterdays session. One 24 track 2 inch master tape could be used about 20 times before it became useless. It had to be done. We could never have stored so many tapes...(which weren't exactly cheap)
Yes, really important stuff is stored for eternity, but daily sessions, having been mixed and saved on various media, were routinely wiped, and re-used.
You don't have to use virgin tape for every recording. (This is all irrelevant now in the digital world. obviously)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 06:13 PM

is yours an original or the Trailer release?

Just realised I meant to ask "... an original or the Highway release". Sorry for the confusion. Good job I don't have a brain; I'd only break it.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 06:50 PM

On reusing tapes:

I could finger several small studios who didn't even bother erasing them first, and only degaussed and cleaned the heads each time Halley's comet appeared on a Wednesday.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 07:43 PM

.. the topic of this thread is as good an excuse as any to link to this "Sound on Sound" article again....

"Tape Salvage & Transfer"

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep05/articles/fxcopyroom.htm

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 08:04 PM

Thanks, Pfr, fascinating.

Sadly it's fairly certain that the Trailer/Leader multitracks didn't survive. Too much to hope for. I reckon the tapes the B. Library have are a stereo mix taken from those, which was then used to record what became the production master. That's not how I'd have done it, but I expect they had their reasons. At least someone had the good sense to put them where they'd be stored in appropriate conditions - pity they didn't tell anyone though.

It's the artists I feel sorry for - they deserve to be told.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 02:30 AM

Oh for a time machine!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 06:04 PM

Dunno what difference a Tardis would have made, Bonzo..

Ralphie - do you think the joins between the tracks on 'Devil' might have been spliced?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 02:14 AM

Almost certainly. The mixes on each track would have been very different. And the editing on NAT is very cleverly done. Not quite as clever as George Martin/Geff Emericks edit of Strawberry fields. 2 Different takes in different keys and different tempos! (See if you can find it!)
As for the BL stuff. I still think it's an LP transfer, although why they put the track order in that particular way, I know not...Weird!
And why master to tape in this day and age? We all know that tape has a relativley short shelf life (30-40 years) Why not put it straight onto a hard drive? (obviously with 2 back-up hard drives!)
I had to ask a mate at the Beeb to let me in a couple of weeks ago, to try and salvage a couple of rolls of tape...She said..."I think we've got one tape machine left somewhere!!"
She found it in a dubbing suite wrapped in plastic! It still worked, sadly the tapes didn't! Too much print through.
The Beeb now records everything direct to an enourmous server (well 3 actually) that can be then accessed by anyone (in the world probably!) with the right access codes obviously. I think they keep the tape machine (a Studer BTW) for old times sake!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 02:33 AM

Don't let Punkfolkrocker in then, he'll try to stop anybody playing anything "just in case............."

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 08:28 AM

"he'll try to stop anybody playing anything "just in case"


No, just inconsiderate selfish dimwits with no care or concern for the proper preservation of,
and responsible public access to,
irreplaceable priceless national treasures..


You do know exactly what people are trying so patiently to explain to you,
but choose to ignore and distort their meaning
for your own perverse antagonistic ends....

So apparently no point then anyone asking you to stop acting like such an immature twat.......?????

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 08:33 AM

Way To Go PFR. Nicely said.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 09:23 AM

Do you get expenses for working on the Public Service Police I wonder?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 09:25 AM

grow up old man...

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 10:13 AM

You're not getting angry are you? Very entertaining!!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 10:31 AM

Well, I won't be letting Bonzo getting his hands on the access codes to the Beebs archive.....He'd have heart attack at all the stuff he could nick!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolrocker
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 11:36 AM

silly old conceited bonz..

.. mistaking disdain for anger...


In this particular thread amongst the company of genuine experienced professional audio experts

[I would not dare presume or flatter myself to be one of them]

who care profoundly that precious recordings may be so easily damaged or lost forever..



yours is the lone voice of vain arrogant foolishness....

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 11:51 AM

I shall dine well in the knowledge of that.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 03:40 PM

Hope you dine weli Bonzo.
Us professional sound engineers will dine much better. (Omelette and chips probably)
After all, we provide the product. (and sometimes get a Pizza as a reward)
Seriously, we will protect what we record...Always have, Always will.
And unless agreements are made, You won't get your hands on them.
Unless you want to steal them....Which of course you wouldn't contemplate....Would you?
Being such a nice chap, who's never done a bootleg in his life......
Shouldn't you be going off to Argentina shortly? Lot's of musos over there...Bloody good they are too.
Why not bootleg them?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 03:51 PM

I'm not fighting a battle of wits with two unarmed men!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,arlphie
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 03:52 PM

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 04:00 PM

you've already used that one in another recent thread
regarding a 'battle' that you instigated;
and any glorious 'victory parade' seems to be taking place nowhere else
but inside your sadly limited imagination..

.. perhaps you need to download a new pdf handbook of prefabricated pithy put-downs
and witty caustic replies for all social occasions...???

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 04:00 PM

Bonzo...Just carry on bootlegging other musicians work for your own enjoyment. Don't worry about the pittance that they earn. (or that you are denying them) As long as you've got a fine selection of recordings, that's just dandy. Carry on then...
Shall I send you a copy of my CD? .......For nothing?....Don't hold your breath.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 05:10 PM

Actually Bonzo. You are the worst sort of unpleasant people. Somebody pointed out that you had bootlegged me a year or so ago. Hope you are enjoying it, because we we played crap that night.
You are really not a very pleasant person are you?
Most of the posters on this thread, have huge amounts of knowledge within the media/recording industry. Over many decades.
What have you done? Please expand....(Oh, and erase the gig you stole without consent)

Subject: RE: Aha, rank sport
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 05:12 PM

Gentlemen, please..

As for the BL stuff. I still think it's an LP transfer, although why they put the track order in that particular way, I know not…Weird!

Not as weird as changing some of the titles, and in some cases losing the LP title completely.. It's supposed to be a catalogued archive, after all. No, I'm convinced they have a mix straight from the multitracks, in the order in which the tracks were recorded and bearing the working-titles. I can find out easy enough.

Strawberry Fields? Aaah, now yer talkin'……

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 05:41 PM

"The Sound Archive's Listening and Viewing Service provides free public access to our collection of recorded sound and video. Users can hear any item from the Archive's extensive holdings of published and unpublished recordings of music, wildlife, drama, literature and oral history. The service provides access to BBC broadcasts."

Full details HERE.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 05:42 PM

Go for it Smokey...Hard to find, but when you do, you'll never forget it! That was serious analogue mixing....and a lot of blind luck! Wish I'd been there!
Only recorded in Abbey Road once. Mind you It was Kirsty McColl....proper Folk Music!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 06:10 PM

I expect you saw the George Martin documentary - much about Strawberry Fields on there if memory serves me correctly. I seem to remember something about unorthodox use of the mellotron's pitch adjustment knob..

Apparently the final mix of Dark Side of the Moon was quite a stunt too - I may have read about that in Nick Mason's biography - well worth a read.

I loved Kirsty McColl's version of 'Days' - yes, proper folk music ;-)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 09:06 PM

2 Different takes in different keys and different tempos! (See if you can find it!)

I don't think I could have found it unaided, but once you know, it's clear enough. Parts of Sheffield are like that.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 01:41 AM

Have only worked in Abbey Road once (Studio 1...The big one, All you need is love was broadcast from there) but, during a break, managed to sneak into Studio 2. And actually stroked the walls! How sad is that? Lol!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 04:37 AM

"Oh for a time machine!!"

That comes from a Pete Frame Family Tree - he was referring to the Windsor Blues Festival 1967, where some of us saw the debut of Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac. I have some grainy super 8 film of that somewhere.

"Somebody pointed out that you had bootlegged me a year or so ago"

Did I really - news to me?????

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 01:16 PM

managed to sneak into Studio 2. And actually stroked the walls! How sad is that? Lol!

Not at all, Ralphie, considering what came out of the place.. Bugger Lourdes :-)

Bonzo - you should read Charlie Watkins' account of the '67 Windsor festival, it's hilarious.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 02:34 AM

Thanks for that.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 06:40 PM

Wasn't that the same occasion on which Arthur Brown accidentally set on fire whilst dangling from a crane, Bonzo? Folk music aint what it used to be.. Charlie Watkins did the sound, if you hadn't already realised.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 02:51 AM

Oh yes, I knew that. I remember Peter Green using an Orange amp, and someone shouted "where's your Marshall?" during his second set in a marquee!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 11:54 AM

Ralphie - you have publicly accused me of "bootlegging" one of your CDs. Before I instruct my London lawyer tomorrow, I will give you an opportunity to elaborate - and you had better be quick.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 12:02 PM

Not the CD...Apparently it was a Live gig....Didn't notice at the time but was told later. You might as well copy the CD If you wish...I never saw a penny from it anyway!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 01:13 PM

"Apparently it was a Live gig....Didn't notice at the time but was told later. You might as well copy the CD If you wish...I never saw a penny from it anyway!"


Apparently? Apparently?? You accuse me on something which is just apparently - I don't believe this.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 01:26 PM

Yes, folks would tend to agree that 'Apparently?'
would not constitute the firmest grounds for reasonable suspicion.

But.. hmmm.. now let's think..

Who's been hinting & bragging in various thread posts
about his portable pocket size 'stealth' recording equipment
and enthusiasm for illicit bootleg recordings ???????

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 02:14 PM

No grounds at all, and I'm currently mulling over numbers and noughts to discuss with my London lawyer tomorrow.

I'm still waiting for news of this "gig".

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Noreen
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 06:31 PM

Are London lawyers different from other lawyers?

Just asking!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 02:33 AM

Yes, more heavyweight!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:32 AM

Bonzo. Just go away away. You've been bragging about recording gigs without the artists permission for years.
It's becoming tiresome. Haven't you got another holiday to South America planned? (First class natch)...Bye Bye then. Have a lovely time.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 12:04 PM

I will not go away away as you put it. You have lied publicly and made false accusations against me. You are pathetic.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 12:13 PM

I doubt you have any legs to stand on.

"Yes m'lud, false accusations were made against my client Mr Bonzo3legs."

Will you be recording the trial?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 12:32 PM

Right then..

Bonzo versus Ralphie ???

...one of these fellows is a widely esteemed well respected valuable asset to our Mudcat community
and a significant 'behind the scenes' figure
in late 20th Century Great British recorded music culture & history..

and the other....??????




Oooh.. one of life's joys is watching obnoxious bullies exposing themselves to public ridicule..

.. and even more delectable enjoyment when they start cracking up, squirming and snivelling...

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 02:33 PM

Bonzo (or whatever your real name is.....and why do you hide your identity? just a question. Evetyone knows I'm Ralph Jordan. Ralphie is just easier to type.)
You have made it clear that you take great delight in bootlegging live gigs. I was told that I had had this done to me. I can't be certain, but I trust the person who told me.
I recorded the Sidmouth "In Search Of Nic Jones" concert last year having been asked by the family to do so.
I specifically asked permission from all the artists, who all (thankfully) agreed.
In return, They all have a double CD of a truly wonderful and emotional afternoon, as do Nic and Julia.
If any of the artists had said no...I would have stopped the machine without hesitayion.
On many occasions playing in a pub session, someone will ask me to play a particular tune again, so that they can record it to take it away and learn. Absolutely no problem with that.
But, recording at a public concert without permission is not on.
I am reminded of the very last public appearance of Ivor Cutler which I was recording for Radio 3 and Ivor stopped mid-song, peered into the audience and said "Are you recording me?...............Don't"
I honestly don't really give a stuff whether you've recorded me or not. But a lot of artists would take a very dim view of such actions.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 05:46 PM

Frankly I have never heard of you Ralphie or Ralph and have no wish to be involved any further in a quarrel clearly set up by the usual suspects. Over and out.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 01:59 AM

Bonzo (or should that be Steve?)Fine by me.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 03:24 AM

Oh Bonzo.....Stealth Photographs too???? Have read the Blog. I'm sure you asked permission from the artists concerned didn't you? Interesting reading! Lapel Mics? (Probably sounds naff, but If it floats your boat....)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:14 AM

yeah it's interesting what a quick 20 mins of idle googling turns up
while waiting for dinner to cook..

don't need to be Sherlock, or even Scooby-Doo to follow the trail of incrimination
and public notice board accusations of racist disruptive 'Travel' forum trolling..



But I'd not be so hasty to call him "Steve" just yet....

cuz it'd be so sad & such a let down to find out he really is that "Steve" !!!???

even if he's "Steve" at all.. ????

Sincerely hoping that's just a false trail of coincidence....

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:22 AM

just carefully retraced some google links for the sake of objectivity
whilst waiting for the wife to get out the bathroom..

and the google trail evidence is seeming just too much of a coincidence...

It really would be so disappointing to confirm our beloved cheeky reactionary old sociopath Boko3legs
as that 'Clone FX' "Stephen"...

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:43 AM

As a Steve I wish to dissociate meself from this bonzo geezer.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 06:45 AM

The LP sounds really superb to me but then I'm used to material recorded by the Lomaxes and Moses Asch.