BS: Sloppy use of language

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Barb'ry
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 05:07 AM

'At this moment in time' annoys me - why not just say 'now' or even 'at this moment'?

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 02:33 PM

Yes, a right whale of a difference between flounder (move erratically) and founder (sink to the bottom). Flounder also a type of fish.

Other meanings of founder- the person(s) responsible for starting some enterprise; one that founds metal (a 'typesetter'); to disable an animal (usually by over-feeding.

Any more? I haven't looked in the OED.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Michael
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 01:58 PM

No but there Is a thyme and plaice.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 10:45 AM

You say "flounder" and I say "founder". Let's call the whole thing off. Is there a whale of a difference?

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 08:17 AM

BBC Radio 4 news a few minutes ago, reporting on the deaths from insulin poisoning at a hospital in Stockport, said that a spokesman had described the deaths as 'criminal acts with malicious intent'.
Presumably the deaths were the RESULT of criminal acts, it isn't yet a crime to die.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 11:53 AM

The term that I despise is: 'Centre of Excellence'. My old employer once took an ordinary office, painted the walls, installed a white board and then began to refer to it as 'The Centre of Excellence'. We held the same sort of meetings in the re-furbished office as we had in the shabby, old office!

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 01:14 AM

Just to cross-ref ~~ I started the 'careen' discussion on the "TransAtlantic differences" thread, but someone seems to have transferred it to this one: not sure why. So, for those interested, more on this topic over there.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: EBarnacle
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 11:19 PM

Careen is still contemporary usage for those of us who are unwilling to pay for a haul when a job can be done between tides. It requires good ground tackle and a willingness to work with the demands of Mother Nature. I've done it and recommend it to those boat owners who feel competent to take care of things in isolated areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 09:32 PM

G'day GUEST Topsie,

"Longman Dictionary of Contemporary* English (so well used that the cover, and date, are missing, but definitely late twentieth century, and very useful for providing American variations) under 'careen' has only one *meaning:

verb esp. AmE [=American English]: to go forward rapidly while making sudden movements from side to side."

My (work) desk dictionary: Oxford Concise Australian Dictionary, Third edition, (1997) also gives the established (i.e. - not merely contemporary) "Turn (a ship) on one side for cleaning, caulking, or repair ...", which goes all the way back to the Latina root carina, keel.

I will have to check, at home with the full Oxford English Dictionary on Historical Principles to see how far back the correct usage goes, before the American confusion with "career, noted elsewhere in the entry ... but the example Q quoted is correct usage ... even for an American!

Regard(les)s,

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST,scorpio
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 02:54 PM

We seem to have two different categories here - misuse of a term, and not thinking about what you are saying. Good examples of the latter include the famous British football commentator - "If that had gone in the back of the net, it would have been a goal!", and a magistrate in Birmingham who sentenced a youth with the the words " It is obvious that you haven't learned anything from your last term in prison, so I am sending you back there again!"

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 02:42 PM

Many ships are involved in Tai-pan. A flock of Clouds, competitors' ships, lorchas, etc. Sone merchant men were gunned, also depot ships, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: EBarnacle
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 11:32 AM

His credentials may be impeccable but his usages are not. Now, I have to look up the exact page(s) of my citation about the reference to the same vessel and its commander in several different ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST,Ripov
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 08:11 AM

"go and see", "wait and see" - in each case both actions are performed. "Try and see" implies trying (or testing) and seeing, and is justified in "These are nice chocolates, try [one] and see [what you think]. In this case both actions are again performed.
But compare -
"Go and try and see" - do three things;
"Go and try to see" - do one thing and attempt to do another;
and then try to see which has the desired meaning.

Personally I'm puzzled by the store which advertises its prices as "30% less". I want to know which of their competitors gives the full 100% reduction.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 03:45 AM

Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English (so well used that the cover, and date, are missing, but definitely late twentieth century, and very useful for providing American variations) under 'careen' has only one meaning:

verb esp. AmE [=American English]: to go forward rapidly while making sudden movements from side to side.

Nothing about boats at all.

Q has posted a relevant message on the "threat to the English language" thread, quoting similar uses.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:23 PM

There is also "go and ..." as in "go and see what is happening", and there is "wait and ...", as in "wait and see what happens", and "stop and ...", as in "stop and tie a shoelace". You can probably think of others. Do these upset the people who get all hot under the collar about "try and ..."?

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:07 PM

As regards "try and...." it has taken on enough colloquial momentum to steamroller any faint protests on the grounds of correctness; it is still mostly incorrect, however. I can conceive of structuring a sentence using "try and" --such as Better to try, and fail, than never to try.--but not using "and" as the auxiliary to an infinitive. Where this is done the colloquialism seems to assume that the "to" is understood in the second infinitive, but it still clangs.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:40 PM

Authors put their blood, sweat and tears into their work.

A good editor is the heart that circulates that blood correctly, mops up the sweat and dries the tears sufficiently to make authors readable.

This might not apply to one in a thousand authors but I think one in ten would totally fail without a good editor.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 02:01 PM

Ships are accorded the gender 'she' in all English-speaking regions. Gender for trucks is new to me, although some individuals apply human characteristics to their vehicles.

James Clavell was the son of Commander Richard Clavell of the British Royal Navy. He followed in a military career, a Captain in the Royal Artillery until an injury forced retirement from the service.
I believe his credentials with regard to writing about ships and the sea are impeccable.
He, and his widow, sponsored the archives of the Royal Artillery Library, which now bears his name.
A writer and producer in tha American film industry, he took American citizenship, but continued his interest in, and support of, the Royal Artillery.
Incidentally, he produced "To Sir, with Love," and translated "The Art of War" from the Chinese.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 01:42 PM

Yes, I had to think twice about it, but it means 'full of gratitude' not 'full of greatness'.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 01:37 PM

"Grateful." Such an odd word. Seems incorrectly spelled. Greatful would make more sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 01:19 PM

I was brought up to believe that all ships and boats are 'she', and I know someone who always refers to vehicles such as lorries/trucks as 'he' (I think it is a regional thing). If you were learning French or Spanish you would have to learn a gender for everything, not just ships, so be grateful.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 01:17 PM

"As they do," in the sentence quoted, serves to emphasize the significance of where they're coming from and, in this case, slows down the remaonder of the sentence to reinforce the emphasis and allow an extra moment for the reader or listener to apprehend the point.

It adds nothing semantically. But pacing and emphasis count as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 01:16 PM

OR PREFERABLY SHOOK ITSELF.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 01:10 PM

The sea fell on the ship and she heeled and he thought they'd floundered but she shook herself like a wet terrier and swung out of the trough.
but all this she and he stuff is very confusing, why not say which heeled, AND HE THOUGHT THEY HAD FLOUNDERED but the Ship shook herself.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 12:48 PM

Q, almost immediately after that, she foundered. The sentence you quote indicates their fear of foundering.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 09:22 AM

Example of what I complained of at 10 Jul 11 - 07:39 PM from this morning's Times, p 22 ~~

'... these comments are even more desperate coming as they do from elderly people languishing...'

In what the hell way do those three words 'as they do' enhance the sense or make the writing effective? Their effect in these particulars is entirely counter-productive: verbose, distracting, and entirely superfluous -- of course they bally-well 'do', or they wouldn't be mentioned, would they?

I do wish this particular annoyance would disappear.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: autolycus
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:18 AM

Parent "There are two words I can't stand. They're cool and awesome. I want you to stop using them all the time."

Teenager. "Ok. What are the words?"

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 09:12 PM

"Dick Struan came up on the quarterdeck of the flagship H.M.S. Vengeance.... the 74-gun ship of the line was anchored...."
Surrounding her were the rest of the fleet's warships, the troopships of the expeditionary force and the merchantmen and opium clippers of the China traders."
"The harbor's the best in these waters," Cooper [American standing on the foreshore] said. "Plenty of room to careen and refit all our ships...."
*American edition
I'll have to reread sometime, a good writer.

"Shogun" (p. 10)
The sea fell on the ship and she heeled and he thought they'd floundered but she shook herself like a wet terrier and swung out of the trough."
Not possible to interpret that as meaning the ship has foundered.
On p. 1 (Prologue) the ship lurches, but no mention of flounder or founder.

Barnacle may need a remedial English course.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 06:03 PM

Echtuelly, I believe the term Dancing on Air did originate with the uncontrolled movements that the victim made for a while after being hanged.

Bobert, I do use ain't on occasion but it is a conscious choice.

The point of my earlier post was that misuse of language, especially in an early part of a book shows the author's ignorance and calls all that he writes into question, especially his specific knowledge upon which the book is based.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 04:51 PM

I didn't think I was dishing anything out - I said I thought it witty. However, I'm quite content to have the correction noted.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 04:34 PM

DMcG: That should be "contrôlée"—or better still, "Appalachian d'origine contrôlée."

Ordinarily, I wouldn't bother to correct something like that, but in this thread, them as dished it out oughta be able to take it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 04:14 PM

Young people nowadays use the word "awesome" for anything agreeable, convenient, or helpful.

I used to work in the "post office" of a university. Sample dialogue:

STUDENT: Can you sell me a stamp?

ME: Yes.

STUDENT: Awesome!

If I were Superman, and they asked me, "Can you leap tall buildings at a single bound?" and I said "Yes"—that would be awesome. Selling a stamp is not awesome. But no irony was intended (I think). I had to laugh.

But that's no worse than saying "Cool!" or "Boss!" (another cool word of my youth).

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST,Anne Lister mysteriously sans cookie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 04:00 PM

One that has me shouting at the radio (where I come across it most) is the phrase "mitigate against". You can militate against something, and you can mitigate (soften) something. You can't, though, mitigate against anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 01:48 PM

Price index is a single number summarizing price levels

Price index on Monday- 4.0
Price index on Tuesday- 4.7
A 'significant' increase in price index.
----------------------

Today's bad grammar is taught tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:23 PM

On today's UK news:"the rate of increase of the price index has slowed this month"

Are we talking about the 2nd, 3rd or 4th differencial of price against time, here?

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: autolycus
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 06:40 AM

One I can't abide is 'definitive' with reference to classical music performances. I think the same would apply to theatrical or cinematic ones.

There hint no sich animal. Not even the composer can do that.


I also object to the phrase "the verdict of history".

Doesn't exist either. Historians are constantly revisiting to re-evaluate. And there are a variety of stripes of historian, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Michael
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 06:19 AM

"In real terms"- I'v never been sure about that one, 'real' as opposed to 'unreal' 'imaginary'?
House prices in real terms, rather than, say, Monopoly money or bananas?

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 03:03 AM

Another over-used expression is "in terms of". On BBC Radio 4 this morning I heard someone talking about house prices "in terms of real terms".

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 02:33 AM

"Almost as 'Wensday' but with a slight, almost glottally stopped, 'd' implied before the 'n'... "

Sounds like one has a cold. :)

And you are right- it belongs in the other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:55 AM

But wouldn't this Wednesday discussion fit better on the Sloppy Pronunciation thread. A bit confusing to have them going on at the same time, what? Would it be expedient to combine them, clones ~~ or would that only lead to worse confusion?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:51 AM

Almost as 'Wensday' but with a slight, almost glottally stopped, 'd' implied before the 'n'...

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:46 AM

Oh, wait! How do you pronounce Wednesday?

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:45 AM

Maybe so, Michael, but the way they use it, it sounds complete to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:38 AM

Ebbie ~~ I think it is just an ellipsis for "one of the people of whom ONLY a few remain". But a bit clumsy and confusing, I agree.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 10:39 PM

One phrase that I hear and see quite frequently is "one of the only...", as in one of the only people left or one of the only ways to say something- you get the idea.

What does One of the Only mean/em>? "One of the few..." yes. "one of the many..." yes.

But one of the only?? I can't make it come out so that it makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 10:06 PM

Q - those are just bad grammar. The prevalence of ignorance does not make it wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Gurney
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 05:58 PM

The 'could of..' sequence referred to above is possibly just accents. When written as 'could've' it makes sense, and sounds much the same in my Midlands accent.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 05:36 PM

-"Try and Catch the Wind," Donovan. Hear it on youtube.
-Consumer Reports.org- "Turbine Tests: Should you try and catch the wind?" 18 May 2011.
-Sweethearts of the Rodeo, "Catch the wind." ...Oh but I might as well try and catch the wind.....
-Michael Murphy, Try and Catch the Wind, novel.
-"Try and Change the World" Johnny Reid.
-"Don't you try and teach me no original sin" Ozzie Osborne.
-"When you are in a troubled relationship, it is normal to want to try and fix it." The magic of Making-up, a book.

There are eight examples. So don't try and fight city hall, windmills, whatever. The people, she have spoke.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 05:25 PM

Jack the Sailor: Yes, I think that's what the term "overachiever" was coined for (although I don't think 10% is enough to worry about).

I think that the concern was that people, especially students, who "overachieve" academically may do so at the expense of depriving themselves of other worthwhile experiences such as dating or physical exercise, and may wind up socially inept, sedentary, obese, etc.

I don't know whether that concern was justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 04:55 PM

Another surfaced on the news tonight.

"Try and".


NONONONONONONONO

"Try TO".

It's a fricking infinitive!

Bah.