an embarassment as a blues singer

Subject: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 12:33 PM

This was how Dick Miles was described in a review in Folk Roots, Here is an example of embarrassing blues singing, SugarBabe composed or associated with mance lipscombhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhvDn4n5v0w

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 12:39 PM

Screw the critics. Sounds good to me!

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 01:33 PM

I listened. I think he sounds better than most blues singers, actually. Nice guitar playing, too.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 01:47 PM

Definitely sounds better than Ian Anderson.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 03:01 PM

Sounds good to me, Ian Anderson and co won't like it cos it's in English.

Dave H

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Arkie
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 03:13 PM

One needs neither a brain nor an ear for music to write music reviews. Opinions do differ, but people should take this into account when evaluating someone else's work, especially something as personal as music.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 07:41 AM

Dick Miles is a talented performer , who does a variety of different styles - Traditional and Contemporary , with various accompaniments .
To MY mind there is nowt wrong with hime doing s bit of blues , and there are a LOT worse than Dick , though he does have the disadvantage in NOT being Blind , Black or American - Any more than the people who were involved in the British Blues revival of the late sixties were !

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 07:44 AM

thanks leadfingers, must keep working on those disadvantages.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 07:59 AM

But is Dick Miles there actually trying to be a "Blues singer" or simply being a singer singing a song which happens to be a Blues song?

My take from the above video is the latter rather than the former.

The former (imitating a Blues singer) might well have been "embarrassing", the latter however was simply a singer singing a song in the way that he sings songs. As such whether you like or don't like the performance, will be dependent on how much you like Dick Miles' singing.

Arguably this thread taps into another ongoing thread here about singing songs from other traditions, whether it should be attempted and if so, how best to do so.

Meanwhile: Not White, Not Irish

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: matt milton
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 09:14 AM

The preamble about fRoots was totally unnecessary, and that shouldn't need stating.

It's setting up a straw man and you're intelligent enough to know that Dick. Get a grip.

I enjoyed listening to that. If you were looking for vindication, Dick, then you've got it. Your playing isn't embarassing. However, what is embarassing is your endless banging on about fRoots.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 09:29 AM

Tangentially, hasn't Ian Anderson himself claimed to have made an embarrassing white-man-plays-the-blues album, back in the day?
Anyone got anything on that?

Not really contributing to the current thread I know..

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 09:33 AM

I will never again do a blues song until I have had my skin tinted.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Colin Randall
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 09:41 AM

Arkie says: "One needs neither a brain nor an ear for music to write music reviews."


Right up to a point, but the pejorative connotation weakens the point you are trying to make.

My own view, expressed here previously, is that one actually needs no more than an ability to write. And you won't even get consensus on that.

I've occupied the privileged position of reviewer, and occupy it still if you take into account the modest ramblings of Salut! Live, and all I have ever claimed is to be a fan who happens to have a platform.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 10:08 AM

an embarassment as a blues singer - "This was how Dick Miles was described in a review in Folk Roots."

This comment appeared in issue 79/80 dated Jan/Feb 1990, so I feel that it has taken rather a while for this objection to the review to surface. There have been five Dick Miles albums reviewed in this magazine according to my data base - four have been neutral or positive and then this one which was pretty negative.

I believe that the editorial policy of this magazine is not to send review copies of the same artist to the same reviewer each time so that a balanced view of an artist can be achieved. If Dick has had an 80% success rate with fRoots, then I reckon he should be pretty pleased with himself. Anyone who sends or allows others to send review copies to magazines is opening themselves to public scrutiny and must be prepared to accept the fact that from time to time they are going to come up against someone who does not like their product.

Those who have answered with criticisms of the editor are clearly missing important points:-

* Ian Anderson did not write this review or any of the reviews of Dick's albums that have appeared in fRoots.

* Ian Anderson has written in his guide to reviewers that as long as their statements are not libelous, that he will not interfere with the contents of the reviews; I have never heard of any review where Ian has sought to change a review in the 337 issues of the magazine. I was asked to review in fRoots an album that Ian both played on and was the producer of. I had a number of negative comments to make in what I considered a balanced review. The review appeared in full.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 10:21 AM

In case my previous comment may have been misconstrued as a stab at "the editor" Ian Anderson, it was entirely - as stated, a tangential comment, made in a spirit of curious good humour too.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 10:26 AM

"I will never again do a blues song until I have had my skin tinted."

(good one, 999!)

Gee, all my life I've lived in America, and I didn't know until I heard it here that only black people can sing the blues.

Actually, the heart of the blues is the unexpected minor third, and anybody who can sing the notes can sing the blues.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Colin Randall
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 10:53 AM

Vic Smith: spot on. What you said should hardly have needed saying to an intelligent audience, but was welcome all the same. There's still a great deal to be said for a sense of proportion.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Green Man
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 11:21 AM

Can a blue man sing the whites ?

(Keith Donnely 2011)

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Steve Hunt
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 11:28 AM

Dave Hanson wrote: "Ian Anderson and co won't like it cos it's in English."

Dave, that is just so completely removed from reality, I can only assume that you've never actually met Ian, or read a copy of fRoots. That is an utterly ridiculous thing to assert.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Steve Hunt
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 11:39 AM

Oh, and by the way - I have also received a review in fRoots which could, at best, be described as "tepid," but I don't bleat on about it because (a) I still believe that the magazine is essential reading for anyone on the scene and (b) because I'm a grown-up.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 11:45 AM

I don't read fRoots regularly, though I do drop into the forum pages now and then.

Have a pop at the mag if that's your taste, but there's no call to get petty about Ian. I knocked around occasionally with the blues gang from the South-West, of which Ian was one, in London in the late '60s, and I have to say that they were a nice bunch of people and good musicians. If what we all did musically over long careers (mine's over 45 years playing now) contains the occasional hiccup, well, so be it.

I remember Ian from those days (and we haven't met since) as an interesting and original guitarist - even booked him at the BBC Folk Club.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:11 PM

At no point have I stated that Ian Anderson was responsible for the review.
I can dedicate comments to who I like, just as reviewers can write what they like, its called freedom of speech, so Matt and Vic,I am exercising my right to say what I like, just as reviewers exercise their pens on other peoples musical careers
but now with you tube, the music can be presented to the public,and the public can make their own judgements on the music.
Matt, I am not banging on about froots, I am commenting on a review in Folk Roots, a different publication., which again was different from Southern Rag
Vic, please get your facts right, this has nothing to do with froots I think you will find that most of the reviews you are talking about were in southern rag or folk roots, which is not froots, THAT REVIEW APPEARED IN FOLK ROOTS.
The anonymous reviewer described the vocals as decidedly uninspired, that is his privilege , it is my privelige to put up my singing, and let people judge for themselves

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:15 PM

It is also my privilege to make whatever comments and dedicate songs to who I like, My comments stick to facts, listen carefully to what i said again.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:18 PM

"All my life I've Lived in America" ? Well I don't how long all your life lasted but but if you believed while you were alive that all it took to sing the blues was the ability to sing a minor third then you obviously missed out.
I thought the British introduced you folks to your own blues culture back in the 60's. Do they have to do it all over again?

On a serious note Dick if you don't wish to be embarrassed why post a crap quality video of yourself and then bleat about a slight that you apparently suffered twenty years ago.

I have to admit to doing a bit of picking and singing of blues myself but when it comes to the vocal bit only in the privacy of my own home among consenting adults. And by the way Dick,I don't think Navasota is in the Piedmont unless they moved it since I was there.

Keep on Truckin'

Hoot

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:20 PM

(a) I still believe that the magazine is essential reading for anyone on the scene . quote.
yes, but you see I dont share that opinion.,
if i want to find out whats going on i look at you tube i trust my own ears and i listen to programmes like reels to ragas and decide for myself, because I am an adult with a discerning brain and not a sheep.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: matt milton
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:56 PM

"Matt, I am not banging on about froots, I am commenting on a review in Folk Roots, a different publication., which again was different from Southern Rag"

Sorry, my mistake.

Stop banging on about a review in "Folk Roots" then.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 01:01 PM

Just one response, because as I have stated here and elsewhere, I will not not get into public rows with you, Dick, but let's just set a few facts straight.....

At no point have I stated that Ian Anderson was responsible for the review.
... and where did anyone suggest that you stated this?

I can dedicate comments to who I like, just as reviewers can write what they like, its called freedom of speech, so Matt and Vic,I am exercising my right to say what I like, just as reviewers exercise their pens on other peoples musical careers
... and where is anyone denying your right of freedom of speech?

but now with you tube, the music can be presented to the public,and the public can make their own judgements on the music.
Matt, I am not banging on about froots, I am commenting on a review in Folk Roots, a different publication., which again was different from Southern Rag
Vic, please get your facts right, this has nothing to do with froots I think you will find that most of the reviews you are talking about were in southern rag or folk roots, which is not froots, THAT REVIEW APPEARED IN FOLK ROOTS.
You are 100% correct, Dick, if a tad on the pedantic side. The magazines, Southern Rag, Folk Roots and fRoots have all been edited by the same person (amazingly) in a period that now covers more than a half of his life. The three magazines have had the same contiguous numbering system:-
Issues 1 - 24 were called Southern Rag.... then because Ian wanted to give the magazine a national basis, he changed the name.
Issues 25 - 207 were called Folk Roots.... then when we were entering the digital age the site names www.folkroots.com www.folkroots.co.uk etc.etc. were registered by a prominent folk singer and musician, now deceased, in the hope of selling the domain names to Ian at a vast profit. This was one of the reasons that the name was changed again.
Issues 208 - 337, the present, the magazine has been called fRoots.
In conversations on the folk scene, "Folk Roots" and "fRoots" are largely taken as synonomous as no one exactly remembers when the change took place, but in making this common error, I have clearly caused great offence, so I can do nothing but offer my most humble apologies. Any more discussion of this matter between us by PM only.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 01:15 PM

Any more discussion of this matter between us by PM only.quote.
Laying down the law again Vic, sorry sir, but I will not be told by you, how and when I will discuss anything.
   you remind me of Chairman Mao, he who was supposed to have swam as recorded below, and he who loved telling people what to do.
On July 16 he[mao] took a vigorous and well-reported swim in the Yangtze River by the Wuhan bridge. It was a signal that Mao was in robust health--and that he was launching a counterattack against his critics in the party leadership.

Although Mao was in his early 70s, party propagandists claimed that the Chairman had swum nearly 15 km in 65 min. that day--a world-record pace, if true. The contention elicited guffaws from foreign observers, who took the claim as a sign that China was descending into political madness. Yet for the old man of the revolution, the swim was a call to China's younger generation to dive into a political struggle against "counterrevolutionary" party bureaucrats. If the aging Chairman could conquer the mighty Yangtze, surely the nation's youth could brave the winds and waves of a political storm and overthrow Mao's opponents.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 01:30 PM

Green Man: Can a blue man sing the whites ?(Keith Donnely 2011)

Actually, I think you'll find it was Viv Stanshall and Neil Innes, 1968.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 01:34 PM

Can a Green Man sing the Blues?
Can a Blue Man sing the Greens?
Can a White Man sing the Greens?
Can a Blue Man sing the Whites?
Can a Green Man sing the Whites?
Can a White Man sing the Blues?

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 01:35 PM

Considering the various digressions above, I consider this an appropriate point to post this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTVCvws7AYA
Now coincidentally 22yrs old..

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 02:12 PM

"The site names www.folkroots.com www.folkroots.co.uk etc.etc. were registered by a prominent folk singer and musician, now deceased, in the hope of selling the domain names to Ian at a vast profit"...

G'wan, Vic. Name names!

And Lively Lass, I'll raise you a Rich and Famous for your Momus... female Marxist Leninist tram drivers are go!

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 02:29 PM

On this occasion not Peter Kennedy.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Ron Cheevers
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 02:33 PM

For what it's worth, I am white, English and sing and play blues. I think what I do is just as valid as some middle class people who want to sing sea shanties or songs about farming or fighting in a famous battle.
Blues isn't just a matter of skin colour; in my opinion, it is about a feeling and a love of the genre. A bit of trivia, I sing all my songs in a Scouse accent, which is my "normal" accent.
Now stop fighting.
Love & peace,

Ron.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 03:42 PM

Eh, I was going to post something by way of repost from Stereolab, but on consideration I can't beat the female Marxist Leninist tram driver. Possibly because it made me want to be called 'Machine Gun' when I grow up..

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 04:40 PM

This thread got me curious enough to listen (for the first time ever) to Ian Anderson's blues band "Hot Vultures" on Spotify.

I find the English accent a bit odd in this music. Guitar playing, pretty good.

I didn't bother listening to Dick Miles's stuff. He very effectively dissuaded me by launching into a 20-year-old grudge. (PMs will be deleted unread).

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 05:07 PM

Jack Campin, a man who prejudges.
Prejudices are what fools use for reason." Voltaire
"Prejudice is a great time saver. You can form opinions without having to get the facts."
E. B. White Quotes.
Jack Campin(PMs will be deleted unread).
Jack, I would not waste my time sending you a personal message, I think Simon Thoumire had it right when he described you on this very forum as very rude, apart from being rude, I think this next quote EPITOMISES why I would not waste my time on a personal message to you,
"Reasoning against a prejudice is like fighting against a shadow; it exhausts the reasoner, without visibly affecting the prejudice."
Charles Mildmay.
The three quotes sums up YOUR PREJUDGING succinctly, that says it all.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 05:24 PM

Jack Campin:-
"This thread got me curious enough to listen (for the first time ever) to Ian Anderson's blues band "Hot Vultures" on Spotify."

Jack,
If you would like to hear Ian Anderson playing in an altogether more exciting and vibrant combination than Hot Vultures (in my opinion) listen to the tracks of the 2008 album Stubble by Blue Blokes 3. There are five tracks available to listen to at http://www.myspace.com/blueblokes3 He is joined in this delightful trio by Lu Edmonds (Mekons, Billy Bragg's Blokes, 3 Mustaphas 3, Shriekback, PiL, The Damned, Kirsty MacColl's Band) and Ben Mandelson (Billy Bragg's Blokes, 3 Mustaphas 3, Tiger Moth, Orchestre Jazira, Magazine, Amazorblades and many more).

We were fortunate enough to book them in Lewes as the only small venue in their major venue tour. They were technically brilliant, very funny, totally entertaining and utterly professional. They draw a huge crowd for us and the audience loved them.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Arkie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 05:35 PM

There was no intention to apply my statement above to all who write music reviews. I have read many reviews from reviewers who have insight, and information and report with objectivity. Neither do I think that reviewers are bound to write only favorable reviews. Then there are those who use reviews as a platform to spout personal opinions. Then again, not all agree on what is enjoyable or acceptable with music.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 07:02 PM

For all of you Americans who have stumbled into this thread unsuspecting, let me take a moment to welcome you to (howl of wolf in distance) Hidden Agenda Theater!

Brought to you by British Folkwars the one and original trad battle site since 1965! And by Tempest in a Teacup, the fine china service that offers steaming ruby red regret, and a tray of vengeance brand ors d'oeuvres(best served cold!) It may seem petty and ridiculous, but later in the third act we will have the Blues explained to us by our English Friends during a pause in the eye-poking!

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Zen
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 07:53 PM

...described you on this very forum as very rude

Actually, I have found Jack very pleasant and helpful on those occasions I have met and played with him.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 08:07 PM

Lonesome EJ--

Hilarious! And yes, I am one of the unsuspecting curious American tourists who has wandered in (more than once!) and still trying to figure out what the hell is a-goin' on here.

I can't wait to hear The Blues Explained.

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 08:47 PM

It's basically the same as this only without the cheese and less people being carried off on stretchers. (Horse alert at 2:00).

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 10:28 PM

How does a tradition like cheese rolling get started? And why does it continue? And why would you run down a steep slope chasing a cheese while wearing only a g string?
I suppose it does sort of explain the British Folk Wars. Random activity with no apparent purpose that confounds the observer while holding the participants completely enthralled..

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 03:01 AM

It's no good trying to explain English traditions to Americans, they can't understand, we've got thousands of years, they've only got a few hundred.

Dave H

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 03:52 AM

What's the point of being english if you don't get embarassed and embarass everybody?

otherwise you might as well be one of these uninhibited Americans or or wild irish celtic types. Going wooooo! everytime someone sings a song.

Embarassing everyone is traditional. Would morris dancing have ever existed, if someone hadn't said - lets dress up in white, put bells on our legs, wear straw hats, jump and lurch around, choose some really weird tunes! your relatives will never speak to us again (with any luck!)....!

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 03:56 AM

This has got to be the strangest thread ever! Reading it is like watching a fight break out among stamp collectors at a ... cheese rolling contest (?)

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:19 AM

On reflection - there's nothing embarassing about Dick's performance. he plays all the right notes and he sings in tune.

On the other hand - he doesn't sound like a man (of any colour) who is about to send his beloved out on the street to go whoring. That's what the songs about. the five dollars probably being an impossible aspiration... a bit like a four bedroom bungalow overlooking the bay at Sandbanks (costing two or three million quid) for the average person here.

Dick, you sound a little embarassed by the song.

More sort of - allright we'll do it with the lights on Evadne, but you think about knitting and i'll pretend i'm the Flying scotsman going into a tunnel....

That's the great thing about being Eglish. Thje yanks couldn't add that to the song, as long as they'd get a hole in their arse. Its why the pain in the arse tradtionalists don't get it. We're not trying to be authentic. Artists like Dick (and myself) are trying for self expression.

Keep rocking mate!

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 05:54 AM

Everything will be explained by Chairman Vic at Sidmouth.[joke]
go along to the session at Sidmouth Folk festival, How to run a Folk Club.
Someone may even write a book on the subject, which will be the equivalent to the Koran or Maos little Red book.[joke]
Who knows Vic may even emulate Mao by swimming the river Sid. [joke]someone tell Sid[joke]

Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:12 AM

Lovely story by Duck Baker, transcribed from a local concert held a couple of years ago, while he was tuning my Martin (and before playing a lovely version of The Blackbird):
=====

"Now, the difference between this guitar and the one that I've been playing - the one that I've been playing up until now is a Spanish, flamenco-style guitar. And this is a steel-string, acoustic, flat-top guitar. And the difference between the nylon strings and the steel strings is very important to a lot of people - most of whom don't play the guitar. I remember, for instance, the first time I came to this country, I was being interviewed by one of the very famous folk critics in London.

So of course I felt very honored to be in the room with him and everything. And almost the first question he asked me, he said, 'Duck, do you mind telling me what you think you're doing, playing traditional American music with that Spanish, nylon-strung guitar?'

I said, 'Well, I don't know, I mean I come from Virginia. People there are pretty ignorant. I thought if it sounded good it was all right.'

He said, 'No. No. If you want to be authentic, you have to get an American, steel-string guitar.'

So when I got home, of course, I told everyone if they wanted to know anything about how to play American music, they should go to London. People would tell them. And now that I've got a nice American steel-string guitar, I'd like to play you an Irish tune!"