Time for another spirited debate (muting strings)

Subject: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: Michael K.
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 07:29 PM

This topic I am sure will draw lots of fire (mostly people flaming me back or vehemently disagreeing with what I'm about to write,) but what the hell. (grin)

I was over at my guitar teacher's place a couple of weeks ago. This is a person who is very well respected in the Toronto (where I'm from) acoustic community and one who has been playing guitar for 35+ years. As well as being a very fine guitar, banjo, mandolin and dobro player the man is also an ''encyclopedia'' of acoustic music and music trivia going back decades. (Any guesses as to who this might be? (grin))

We got into a discussion about muting strings to achieve a certain sound when playing thumb or finger style.

I told him that while I understood the relevance of muting the strings to achieve a certain desired sound, I just refused to do it when I played.....on principal. (Read on.)

Not because I can't do it(I can) but my argument to him was, ''Look, if I've spent X number of thousands upon thousands of dollars on my vintage guitar collection (mostly Martins) with Brazilian rosewood bodies and spruce tops, I damn well didn't spend the money for these guitars so I could MUTE them. I WANT to hear them ring. I WANT to hear every damn wood cell reverberate while I'm playing the guitar! If I was going to mute the strings, I could buy a 200 dollar guitar, mute it, and get the same sound.'' I know this is an ATTITUDE, but I feel justified. (grin)

He thought this would make a very intersting discussion as he could see my point, but I think we agreed to disagree.

Reactions? Thoughts? Comments? Flames? Let 'em rip.

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 07:47 PM

Eric Clapton, Stevie Ray Vaugh, Jimi Hendryx, Chet Atkins, Jerry Reed Glenn Campbell, Doc Watson, Dave Van Ronk, Tret Fure, Rory Block, Bonnie Raite, B.B. King, Alvin Lee, Albert Lee, Albert Collins, Andres Segovia, Chritopher Parkening, Julian Bream, Leo Kotke, Robbie Basho, John Fahey , and a few doezen others all can or could play very fast and didn't always.

They used every technique the could to improve their sound. I bet it took good instruments to do it.

Don

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: Bert
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 07:50 PM

Good for you Michael, let it ring, but WE want to hear it as well. SEND us a CD or Tape.

Bert

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 08:31 PM

Well, I can't resist! Even though I am not a picker, I did used to mute my vintage violin, which has a beautiful tone and has appraised for a not insubstantial amount, although it is not a Strad (sigh). Anyway, I like the subtlety of a muted sound, at times.

We might have the best collection of voices, in a choir, in the world, that doesn't mean we would want them all to sing fortissimo all of the time!

(Imagine this delivered in the reverent tones of Garrison Keillor when waxing on) Subtltey; shading; nuances; think of that one little cell of a grain which has a sweet, clear voice of its own that sometimes wants to stand out and be heard....solo. Ah, such sweetness, such dear, dear delight, to let the one petal of a rose stand for itself, just once, just once to be let to sing on its own; then, to blend back in with its compadres, blending in the beauty of multi-toned voices as a collective one; such bliss, such sorrow, such passion expressed in such disparate ways....in a little bit of rosewood called a Martin.

katlaughingsubbingforGarrison

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: paddymac
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 10:56 PM

Ah, sweet kat'- if you don't already write for the Woebegone Advertizer, you surely should.

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: Mudjack
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 11:09 PM

Michael,
Muting is important in voicing the guitar, a quality instrument when muted will still sound better than an inexpensive muted instrument. Don's list of pickers likely mute for technique. To me, muting is like hammering on or pulling off, it comes in time and offers a nice effect without plugging in.
Rick's opinion gets my vote (Rick ? right?)Without wiggling to many worms in the can of worms,Your style of play is a matter of taste and if it does'nt include muting, it works for you and thats what is important.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: sophocleese
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 11:26 PM

Why limit yourself? Go from the lowest note to the highest and go from the quietist, subtlest sounds to the loudest and most robust. The brightest jewellry looks brighter still when displayed against dark, light-absorbing, velvet.

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 12:13 AM

Paddymac, thank you very much. Can I use you as a reference?*BG* I don't write for them, if I did I might have a newer car and , oh, I don't know....a bigger Martin??? Like i even have one! I do thank you all the same for your kind words.

katwhoisstilllookingforthathighpayingwritingfromhomejob!

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 02:47 AM

Doc Watson (having learned it from the playing of Merle Travis) mutes his bass strings while fingerpicking Deep River Blues. He does this on the album "Doc Watson in Concert" with Merle (Watson, not Travis). He starts the cut explaining how he started with the [muted] bass and worked for years (probably hyperbole) before successfully adding the treble strings. --seed

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 04:13 AM

Thanks for pointing out the Doc Watson cut, BSeed. I had to search the house to find my Doc Watson albums, but finally I found the cut on a Doc album called "Doc Watson on Stage," which may be the CD name for the same album you have. Guess I didn't remember the cut because it comes just before Doc's great recording of "Life Gets Teejus Don't It."
I'm just a clunker when it comes to playing instruments. Can somebody explain how you mute strings? I halfway recall that you're supposed to hold your finger lightly on the string, so it goes "thud" instead of "ping." there must be more exact ways to do it. Please explain.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 08:36 AM

My dad used to have a Gretsch (sp?)Chet Atkins style guitar that had a mute built into it, that you could switch on and off. It was a length of felt mounted on a metal piece that you could raise up to contact the strings...It didn't seem to work too well though, not enough control over how much pressure to apply to the strings, and kind of gimmicky, I thought.

I agre with you, Michael K....why spend hard earned bucks just to muffle the strings? Especially with a guitar that's known for its sound. Mudjack's point has merit - whatever works for you, that's your "style." Personally, I like to hear exhuberant playing on accoustic guitar - strings plucked so hard they bang into adjacent frets, rattle, a la John Fahey, etc. Seems to add ummm..."feel" to the music.

And like Don said, just because you can play fast doesn't mean you should all the time. That's the beef I have with some rock guitarists who have lightning fast fingers but no discriminant judgement as to when the music calls for fast playing and when it doesn't. IMHO those guys aren't musicians, they're proficient technicians.

Kat, Martin should hire you to do some advertising copy for them. I think you could definitely help them sell some guitars.

Regards, Neil

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 08:50 AM

I can't believe you actually argued with Rick. Can such things happen, O disbeliever, O lower than the lowest of all, O heretic, O rebellious subject, O discourteous minion? Don't you know that your crops will die if you do that?
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: Tony Burns
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 08:55 AM

Michael K.

The guitars in you expensive collection have the potential to produce a vast array of sounds. If you choose to restrict them and only play the notes that ring that is your choice and your loss.

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From:
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 09:26 AM

Mute? NEVER!!!! I'd sooner eat something other than grits!!!

Chet

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From:
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 10:11 AM

Good subject!!

Muting is simply one of a guitar players tools - in fact there are a few styles of muting, as well. It is something I use regularly. I too have guitars with wonderful sounds, and I love to hear those tones ... and in fact muting helps me to experience all the rich sound qualities of my guitars.

You may not wish to do it because you don't like the style, or you prefer to play unmuted ... but it is commonly used especially by acoustic guitar players to create an effect. I'll bet you have heard it much more often then you realize, and don't even recognize the more subtle mutes as mutes, because they are done effectively - other times muting is obvious.

An obvious example of muting from my guitar playing is when I finger pick a folk blues tune, and wish to accentuate a bass note. I will commonly strike that note very hard with my thumb (maybe even strecthing the time a bit and hitting it almost late) and mute it with my palm to deaden the tone. The result is an audible 'thump' - the power with which I have hit it makes the sound slightly sharp - and the whole thing gives me precisely the sound I was looking for!

An example of the less obvious muting from my playing (and I am sure many many other guitar players) is when I am flat picking a blue grass tune. I love the sharp, percussive attack of a string that is struck with power, but want to acheive the clear tone and long ring of an unmuted string. What I do is strick the string very hard with my flat pick (sometimes even twisting the pick slightly to get that extra grinding sound)and closely afterwards barely touch the stirngs with palm at the bridge. The result being a loud sharp percussive guitar note of the primary string I am picking, with no buzz or sharpness to the pitch, plenty of sustain, and the fringe benefit is that the other strings I have hit (I ususally hit a few to catch some of the chord at the same time) produce a more muffled ring behind the note picked. Best of both worlds. It is not as difficult to accomplish as it sounds.

Anyway - this may be more than you bargained for regarding muted strings! I suggest you think of it as one of the tools in your tool kit. Try a few muting techniques, and then listen up to your favorite pickers. I guarantee they are using various mute techniques more than you (or perhaps even they) ever realized!

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: Liam_Devlin
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 10:17 AM

hmmm - I don't know why the forum didn't recognize me in my previous post ... but that long diatribe (beginning with "Good subject!!" on Michael K's comments is from me; Liam_Devlin.

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 11:01 AM

Thanks, Neil. I did used to write copy, so I guess I haven't forgotten how.**BG**

kat

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: arkie
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 11:38 AM

Whether to mute or not to mute is a matter of taste and style. Some folks don't like and so be it. However, as has already been discussed quite well, muting is one of many useful and powerful techniques to give texture and punch to one's playing. Thom Bresh, the son of Merle Travis, and Comer Mullins, a National Thumbpicking Champion, are true masters of the guitar, as are others named earlier in this thread, and can perform lengthy sets with no other instrument but guitar, and give each piece a unique treatment. They use technique to give each song or tune whatever it needs to become alive rather than fit the music to their playing. They play music rather than use music to show off their playing. When a person opens the mind they open the door to greater possibilities and new dimensions of musical presentation.

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 06:17 PM

For Pete's sake, I though this was going to be some heavy debate about gun control, Hollywood movies, Clinton's current commercial for Viagra (Bob Dole's empty) or at least whether to use picks or not. Well rest assured I don't disagree with Michael, or Segovia, or Paco de Lucia, or anyone else who's never muted a note. When Doc Watson plays "Omie Wise" he don't mute. When he plays "Deep River Blues" he does. When I play Paxton, I don't. When I play Merle Travis I do. When I play fast I use a .88mm pick, when I play slow I use a .73mm pick. When I want to use my right hand ring finger, I don't use any picks at all.
On a more serious note, muting is a technique to lessen sustain on the bass notes. I often found in the bad ol days when I played solo for people dancing in saloons that muting the bass in an uptempo number made it swing more and allowed them to hear the beat better. Hey Mike, I bet you use the foot pedals on you pianna occasionally.
P.S. Mike's a good picker folks!

Rick

Subject: RE: TIME FOR ANOTHER SPIRITED DEBATE!
From: Michael K.
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 11:10 PM

(The cheque's in the mail Rick!)

Actually the only time I use a damper pedal on a piano is when I'm wondering around the bowels of a hotel, and come upon an idle baby grand sitting there that I want to check out, and I want to play quietly and not draw other transients into ''my little space''. But the damper pedal on a piano, mutes it very little. There is still sustain.

Not so when you mute the strings on a geetar. Now don't get me wrong. I do recognise that this is just another trick in the old bag of chops (and I can do it). I just choose not to on an acoustic guitar. I would, to achieve certain effects and percussiveness, if playing electric, but I don't play electric. (And of course there will be those who will tell me that this same effect is useful on an acoustic.) I'm not arguing. I just haven't played ANY tune on an acoustic guitar that sounds better to MY ears, muted, than when allowed to sustain and ring out.

My 2 cents anyway......and I appreciate ALL of the responses in this thread!