BS:threat to English language from Americanisms

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 12:54 PM

autolycus, thank you for your last post. While I was speaking plainly, it was not meant perjoratively. But there was a bit of resentment on a general level due to certain attitudes that get expressed on this site from time to time. I take your posts not to be sniping at our language, but rather a concern on your part for your language and the infiltration of another culture into it. Given my ethnic background, I am sensitive to preservation of language and culture. Your post was helpful to my understanding of the issue. I thank you for it sincerely.

To any lurking pedants, please feel free to correct any and all errors in grammar, punctuation, or spelling. :>)

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 01:30 PM

Strictly speaking, CD's is correct because CD is not a word, as apple is, but an initialism. The rule of putting an apostrophe before the "s" in certain plural constructions was well established in the 20th century, but has fallen into disuse and overuse. It is not uncommon to see "'s" used (by those who should have re-done fifth grade) to pluralize normal nouns in handwritten shop signs, for example. So the language (and its typography) is evolving away from the rule because the lower 48% found it hard to keep straight.

I think there are good AND bad reasons for defending shifts in language. The good reasons are when the shift is slovenly or ignorant and causes a loss of clarity in current exchange. The bad reason is because "it ain't how I larned it", a curmudgeonly resistance to change. Change will not cease because of tantrums or resentment, which most 11-year-olds realize are a total waste of time.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 01:43 PM

It is my opinion that another reason for the incorrect use of the apostrophe, as well as incorrect use of homonyms (there, their) comes from the fact that we rarely write longhand anymore. I find myself making these mistakes because typing is almost a subconcious effort. Of late I have been forcing myself to always preview, and I often find that I used incorrect punctuation or homonym even though I am full aware of the appropriate methods and meanings.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 01:54 PM

Is OK necessary? It is to me, because I use it often.
If you wish to refudiate, I suppose a 'yes' or 'all right' are substitutes.

Amos, I won't try to refudiate your assertions, but I have been looking into old style manuals for pluralisms (oops, I almost wrote pleural) following initialisms and have found zilch. Did Fowler have anything? (OK, he tended toward British usage, but he was pretty good on grammar.)

Looking more into portmanteau words, some combine two nouns, others a noun and an adjective.
One new to me, on CNN last night- ridiculist (an itemization of silly actions or happenings).

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 02:00 PM

My views on this in verse - For Better or Worse

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: olddude
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 02:01 PM

I am fully aware of the proper way to write and speak. I just don't give a crap LOL

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 02:09 PM

olddude, I was aware when I had to be, writing for publication, but sinking into my 'senior years' of retirement (Gawd, how I hate those phewphemisms), I have forgotten it all and don't care (being too polite to use the 'c' word today).

Phewphemisms! I have coined a new word. Must submit to the Oxford Press.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: autolycus
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 03:40 PM

Many thanks for your response, BigMick.

It's why I like coming here. A civilised place for civilised discourse.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 03:50 PM

Following a disaster, there is the disafter.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 03:52 PM

That's sad autolycus..........It would be more fun if it was a place for uncivilized intercourse.....................***sigh***.....................


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 03:58 PM

"OK" was originally a humorous abbreviation for "oll korrect."   This etymology used to be in dispute, but the evidence (discovered and sifted fifty years ago by Allen W. Read of Columbia University), appears to be incontrovertible, regardless of what you may have heard.   

That makes "refudiate" sound positively edjimacated.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 04:04 PM

I like "newphemisms", or if they lack substance, "pneuphemisms".

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 04:25 PM

one-too-three." Surely not? How would one use that in a sentence?


I have seen "mens" and womens" in a store. Hard to fathom.

"there are four ss in mississippi" I would probably write it as 'There are four esses in Mississippi.'

Or I could say, There is an s in Mississippi; come to think of it, there are three more than that.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 04:43 PM

I would never use "one-too-three." I only invented that phrase to illustrate how a spell-checker works. Evidently the spell-checker assumes that any 2 or more words can be connected with a hyphen. It's a limitation, but it's an entirely predictable limitation, so as long as you don't rely on it to find that kind of error, you can make good use of a spell-checker.

So, would you say "There are four eyes in Mississippi"?

How about "There are two pees in Mississippi"?

Actually, there is probably a lot of pee in Mississippi.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 04:43 PM

"phewphemisms" I LIKE it! Disafter ain't bad either.

Amos... it's compact disks and not compact disk's. Hence, CDs. Not that I give two shit's from T'urdsday in any case.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: autolycus
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 04:55 PM

In UK, it's compact discs.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 05:00 PM

Further to my link above, whilst the spelling of some words have been changed in America to make them more phonetic, many others have not - so where to draw the line?...why not just stick with the one English spelling of words, and accept that the diverse pronunciations of them (accents) is a good thing?

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 05:02 PM

Gnu:

The argument is not about the noun, disk. It is about the initialism, CD.

"Use in forming certain plurals

An apostrophe is used by some writers to form a plural for abbreviations, acronyms, and symbols where adding just s rather than 's may leave things ambiguous or inelegant. Some specific cases:

    It is generally acceptable to use apostrophes to show plurals of single lower-case letters, such as be sure to dot your i's and cross your t's. Some style guides would prefer to use a change of font: dot your is and cross your ts.[citation needed] Some style guides rule that upper case letters need no apostrophe (I got three As in my exams[44]) except when there is a risk of misreading, such as at the start of a sentence: A's are the highest marks achievable in these exams.
    For groups of years, the apostrophe at the end may be regarded as unnecessary, since there is no possibility of misreading. For this reason, some style guides prefer 1960s to 1960's[44] (although the latter is noted by at least one source as acceptable in American usage),[45] and 90s or '90s to 90's or '90's.
    The apostrophe is sometimes used in forming the plural of numbers (for example, 1000's of years); however, as with groups of years, it is unnecessary because there is no possibility of misreading.[citation needed] Most sources are against this usage.[citation needed]
    The apostrophe is often used in plurals of symbols. Again, since there can be no misreading, this is often regarded as incorrect.[44] That page has too many &s and #s on it.[citation needed]
    Finally, a few sources accept its use in an alternative spelling of the plurals of a very few short words, such as do, ex, yes, no, which become do's, ex's, etc.[46] In each case, dos, exes, yeses (or yesses) and noes are preferred by many authorities.[citation needed] Nevertheless, many writers are still inclined to use such an apostrophe when the word is thought to look awkward or unusual without one."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Use_in_forming_certain_plurals

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 05:04 PM

"Why not just stick with the one English spelling of words(?)"

Who would get to decide? Some snooty language board like they have in France? No thanks.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 05:08 PM

We can't do that Walky. Y'all can't spell for shit! I mean what's with the favour/humour/colour bit? This here's America and we got no time for extra letters that don't even fit! According to your crowd flavor should be flavour and hence rhyme with flour. Do it? Didn't think so........I don't feature it Boy............


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 05:08 PM

Amos... "Nevertheless, many writers are still inclined to use such an apostrophe when the word is thought to look awkward or unusual without one."

I content they are awkward, unusual and illogical.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 05:22 PM

I accept that "flavor" is better phonetically, SPORE, but again stress that there are many other words the American-spelling-police have, thus far, left alone - just go back to our unadalterated English spelling, but by all means pronounce them your own sweet ways, without ditching and tea NOT t!

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 05:34 PM

"Any," sorry.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 06:08 PM

Yes, you certainly like to save letters ~~ as when you call

a lift, an elevator;
a car, an automobile;
a flat, an apartment;
a film, a movie;

Some savings!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 06:18 PM

The Spanish have dropped that useless 'ph' in words from the Greek; fotographia for photograph, foton for photon.
Also gone is 'pn', so pneumonia becomes neumonia.

"Unadulterated English" can be a pain if the OED is followed: flavour but flavorous.
Pope and Dryden had no truck with that 'u'.
Dryden- "Myrtle, Orange, and the blushing rose.. Each seems to smell the flavor which the other blows."

Many English spell recognize with an 's', which is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 06:37 PM

Lift a stone, ascend in the elevator.
A car is a car is a car- few say automobile. And a saloon is a place that serves liquor, not a large car.
A flat means the tire (note spelling) needs repair.
A film is a thin coating, or the plastic (formerly celuloid) on which a movie is recorded.

Disc- Amazon.com spells it with a 'c'. Disk is something thrown at the Olympics in field events. (A tisk is when the disk hits a judge.)

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: kendall
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 07:29 PM

My comment about the UK pedants was not meant to be "touchy", it was meant to get a response.
Everyone who knows me knows that I am an Anglophile.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 07:41 PM

I always use discs, except when I'm working with, IBM equipment when it's disks.

My objection to attempts at spelling reform is that the people who make them up always talk funny.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 08:17 PM

Yeah, talk funny! My laugh of the day.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 09:17 PM

Steve Shaw (or anyone else who enjoys a challenge): How would you punctuate (and/or capitalize, italicize, etc.) the following sentence?
there are four is in mississippi
—or, if that doesn't make sense to you—
there are four ss in mississippi

I would apply common sense by writing the sentences as follows: "The letter 'i' occurs four times in 'Mississippi'. The letter 's' occurs four times in that word too." At first sight my alternatives seem longer and more laboured, but just consider the time saved by the recipient in not having to do the mental processing required to work out what I mean. Good English is not just about common sense; good manners enter into the equation too.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 09:26 PM

Bravo, Steve. I think you solved the problem quite nicely. And I agree with your comment about manners.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Genie
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 11:01 PM

@ Lighter, I disagree that "refudiate" is no sillier than "OK." "OK" is just a shorter way of saying "all right" and as such, it serves a purpose, as do other shortened expressions. What the inclusion of "refudiate" would do is further confuse people who already have trouble with vocabulary and spelling. There's no reason to add it to the lexicon unless and until its usage becomes common among fairly literate people.
I don't know for sure if Merriam-Webster has 'embraced' it, but it's been reported that they've given it the status of their    "favorite new word of the summer," based on its being the most searched-for word on the internet.    I don't think that should be grounds for including something as a legitimate word.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Genie
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 11:15 PM

Jim Dixon, I'm glad MS Word's upgrades have corrected their SpellCheck so that it no longer "corrects" you if you type "sing-along," but they should also accept "singalong," as that is an acceptable spelling per most dictionaries, whereas "sing-a-long" is not.    I don't agree that all sequences of three words would be accepted as hyphenated words.   The point is, that while "sing," "a," and "long" are three valid words, putting them together as a hyphenated word does not fit with the meaning of the word "sing-along."   "Singalong" or "sing-along" means an activity in which people sing along with each other, not an activity where they sing a long (song or whatever).

Since there is no such dictionary word as "sing-a-long" (it's "sing-a•long," with the bullet indicating syllabication), any good Spell Checker should flag that as a non-word.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Genie
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 11:25 PM

The problem with using an apostrophe unnecessarily for plurals of dates ("the 1940's), acronyms ("SNAFU's), etc., is that it quickly spills over into ordinary words. E.g., the humongous, expensive 3-D sign in a Sears store that read "SHOE'S FOR THE FAMILY" or the grocery store advertising "Avocado's" or a menu offering "Hamburger's."   

And, as I said, if you start thinking an apostrophe means plural and for get its real purposes - to indicate an omitted character or characters or to indicate possession - it's very easy to write "during the 50's," which not only has an unncessary apostrophe but omits the one that should take the place of the "19."

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 01:31 AM

Q ~~ Do you honestly believe that 'recognise' is 'wrong'(rather than the standard, recognised English English spelling, or are you just playing wind-up merchant? If you do, then you are simply being simple - in the sense of 'stupid'...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 03:36 AM

If you want to use 'recognise' that's fine - but all the other -ise/-ize words in the book or document should use -ise. Both 'recognise' and 'recognize' are correct but you should be consistent.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 03:50 AM

Choosing a long word than a short one can give the impression that you are trying to make yourself sound important. Car salesmen [or saleswomen] will encourage you to 'purchase' a car, rather than to 'buy' one.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: autolycus
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 05:12 AM

A familiar quiz question is "How many esses are there in 'Mississippi'?" [for which one answer could be 'None, but a lot of boats and fish'].

That being the case, it's reasonable to want to know how to spell "esses" [my answer there.]


just to enlarge on one other point. The trouble with American English being the usual basis of computers is that, unless you know how to do otherwise, when you type English English, the computer [which is always right] tells you you are wrong, wrong noch, when you put in English spelling.

I experience that occasionally only in emails. There is some facility for changing the basis to English English but I'm enough of a technophobe not to have found it yet.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 05:21 AM

On Apple, you have an option to click on an Old Glory or a Union Jack in the header menu, thus notionally opting for American or British spellings & usages. But, even when I have put the U Jack up, it will still underline in red the word 'colour', e.g. {It's done it now, tho that won't survive on to the final online posting} ~~ so what is supposed to be the point? If I knew how to tell Apple about this design fault then I would: perhaps someone more techno might do so for me?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 08:22 AM

Some English youths are like so keen to copy Americans in their recent overuse of the words "so" and "like"!

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 08:40 AM

Cool!

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Stu
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 08:56 AM

"But I wish you would quit the implication that somehow the colonials are messing everything up. Your problem lies in your neck of the woods."

Oh puh-leese . . . don't start this bilge Mick. There ain't no problem, and no-one thinks of you yanks as colonials anymore, time to find something else to feel victimised about - some of those Iranians really hate you guys, you know that? We love you!

"Further to my link above, whilst the spelling of some words have been changed in America to make them more phonetic"

Yawn, little Englander pish . . . many of the spellings used in the US are the original spellings that have been preserved rather than changed by the citizens of the states, along with may other words and terms (and indeed, English music in the case of the people of the Ozarks and Appalachians). The changes made to the spellings in the UK are affectations to make them appear more cosmopolitan.

MthGM - what programme are you using? Changing the flags only changes the system dictionaries itself not other applications, and you might have to change the dictionary in each program's Preferences file.

There are plenty of 'UK pedants' because here in the UK we love our languages and take them very seriously; it's often a topic of conversation. So far from being pedantry it's simply people taking an interest in the language and taking pleasure in it. The French are the same and they argue endlessly about the genders of nouns and the like; in fact they get quite heated about the whole matter.

Of course, on our islands we've developed a right old hotch-potch of in English of words taken from almost every other language pre-Celtic (yes - England has a celtic heritage - shock horror), Welsh, Irish, Gaelic, Germanic, French and lord knows where else. We integrate words from the Indian sub-continent (cuddies) and everywhere else. Dialect is also massively important and there are some superb words still used but in danger of dying out (spugee, yaff) and believe me the dialects of Geordie and Cockney can't be a threat to the language because they are the language.

I love the way the language evolves, and being lucky enough to have a broad ancestry from these islands I use words from all across the place. Don't worry about us taking works from the Americans, they colour and enrich the language in the same way as everyone else.

Ever heard of the Profanisaurus? Now that's the evolution of the English language. Look it up.

Viva language pedantry! Twll dy din di!

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 09:08 AM

Thanks for the hint re the flags & the dictionaries, Jack. But, not being a v techno type, is it unreasonable of me to expect the computer to have been so pre-programmed as to deliver exactly what it says on the tin, without my having to make my own way-beyond-my-abilities-and-understanding adjustments to get what the specification promised me from the off?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 09:35 AM

->MtheGM & autolycus: the operating system (e.g., Windows 7) with which your computer was factory-loaded may well have UK-English loaded, but the same is not necessarily true of the programs you use on it. For example, I use Firefox for web browsing and Thunderbird for email. The protocol for changing the language preference in Firefox is Tools>Options>Content>Languages. In Thunderbird it is Tools>Options>Composition>Spelling; they are similar because both are from Mozilla. On the other hand, in Microsoft Word (2007), you have to click the ball in the upper left, then Word Options>Proofing>Custom Directories>Dictionary Language and choose the version of English you want. I think that works for the spell-checker, but I'm not sure how to adjust the auto-correct or even if that is possible.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 10:32 AM

I am sure I do, Artbrooks. Can't you see that is just what I am complaining of. WHY should I 'have to' click on this & that & the other to get what should have been properly programmed in there right from the word 'go'?

~M~

Please observe that this animus is not directed towards you, who, I appreciate, are trying to be helpful, but against bloody . I am no messenger-shooter, me!

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Stu
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 11:00 AM

"But, not being a v techno type, is it unreasonable of me to expect the computer to have been so pre-programmed as to deliver exactly what it says on the tin, without my having to make my own way-beyond-my-abilities-and-understanding adjustments to get what the specification promised me from the off?

Yes. It is doing what it says on the tin, this is operator error. The spec didn't say it could read your mind, and the spec on my bouzouki didn't say it'd play all the chords Donal Lunny does without some input from me. A computer's a tool and it needs to be learnt how to use it like anything else. Your issue isn't with Apple, it's with any computer.

What applications are you having a problem with? Feel free to PM me and I'll help if I can as this represents rampant thread drift of the most heinous type :-)

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 11:42 AM

My favourite definition of a computer is a "machine which will do exactly what you know how to tell it to do".

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 11:51 AM

My Word documents have a box at the bottom saying 'English (United Kingdom)'. If you click on it you get a box with options for lots of different languages and language variations. You also can click on 'Do not check spelling or grammar' if you want to trust your own abilities.
Along the top of the document you can choose 'Review' and then choose 'ABC Spelling and Grammar' to turn off autocorrection.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 11:52 AM

Jack ~ It tells me that selecting the Union Jack in preference to the Stars&Stripes in the menu bar will select English spellings. But when I spell something in English, it underlines it as an error. So I repeat, for all your saying -- IT IS NOT DOING WHAT IT SEZ ON THE TIN. It shouldn't have to 'read my mind', for heaven's sake ~~ it should know what is in my mind from the option I have chosen, according to its own instructions.

Subject: RE: BS:threat to English language from Americanisms
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 11:54 AM

Types of computer viruses

Adam and Eve virus: Takes a couple of bytes out of your Apple.

Airline virus: You're in Dallas, but your data is in Singapore.

Anita Hill virus: Lies dormant for ten years.

Arnold Schwarzenegger virus: Terminates and stays resident. It'll be back.

AT&T virus: Every three minutes it tells you what great service you are getting.

The MCI virus: Every three minutes it reminds you that you're paying too much for the AT&T virus.

Bill Clinton virus: This virus mutates from region to region and we're not exactly sure what it does.

Bill Clinton virus: Promises to give equal time to all processes: 50% to poor, slow processes; 50% to middle-class processes, and 50% to rich ones. This virus protests your computer's involvement in other computer's affairs, even though it has been having one of its own for 12 years.

Congressional Virus: Overdraws your computer.

Congressional Virus: The computer locks up, screen splits erratically with a message appearing on each half blaming the other side for the problem.

Dan Quayle virus: Prevents your system from spawning any child processes without joining into a binary network.

Dan Quayle virus: Simplye addse ane ee toe everye worde youe typee..

David Duke virus: Makes your screen go completely white.

Elvis virus: Your computer gets fat, slow, and lazy and then self destructs, only to resurface at shopping malls and service stations across rural America.