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Personal Pages Demise

Dennis the Elder 13 Jul 11 - 03:46 PM
Geoff the Duck 13 Jul 11 - 03:50 PM
Arthur_itus 13 Jul 11 - 03:53 PM
Beer 13 Jul 11 - 03:54 PM
Geoff the Duck 13 Jul 11 - 03:55 PM
Dennis the Elder 13 Jul 11 - 03:55 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 13 Jul 11 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,wys on kindle 13 Jul 11 - 04:01 PM
Dennis the Elder 13 Jul 11 - 04:03 PM
Vic Smith 13 Jul 11 - 04:05 PM
Arthur_itus 13 Jul 11 - 04:12 PM
Max 13 Jul 11 - 04:25 PM
Dennis the Elder 13 Jul 11 - 04:29 PM
Arthur_itus 13 Jul 11 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 13 Jul 11 - 04:40 PM
Arthur_itus 13 Jul 11 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 13 Jul 11 - 04:49 PM
Arthur_itus 13 Jul 11 - 04:52 PM
Arthur_itus 13 Jul 11 - 04:56 PM
Max 13 Jul 11 - 05:10 PM
Arthur_itus 13 Jul 11 - 05:14 PM
Dennis the Elder 13 Jul 11 - 05:22 PM
katlaughing 13 Jul 11 - 05:35 PM
Big Mick 13 Jul 11 - 05:46 PM
Arthur_itus 13 Jul 11 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,livelylass 13 Jul 11 - 06:17 PM
DrugCrazed 13 Jul 11 - 06:29 PM
GUEST,livelylass 13 Jul 11 - 06:32 PM
Arthur_itus 13 Jul 11 - 06:40 PM
rhythmn 13 Jul 11 - 06:46 PM
Midchuck 13 Jul 11 - 06:46 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 13 Jul 11 - 06:48 PM
Lanfranc 13 Jul 11 - 06:52 PM
Beer 13 Jul 11 - 06:55 PM
Noreen 13 Jul 11 - 06:56 PM
Arthur_itus 13 Jul 11 - 06:57 PM
Spleen Cringe 13 Jul 11 - 06:58 PM
Arthur_itus 13 Jul 11 - 07:00 PM
Arthur_itus 13 Jul 11 - 07:02 PM
GUEST,Rafflesbear sans biscuit 13 Jul 11 - 07:07 PM
katlaughing 13 Jul 11 - 07:22 PM
Fergie 13 Jul 11 - 08:46 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 13 Jul 11 - 09:24 PM
Max 13 Jul 11 - 10:13 PM
Leadfingers 13 Jul 11 - 10:24 PM
Beer 13 Jul 11 - 10:27 PM
kendall 14 Jul 11 - 07:27 AM
DrugCrazed 14 Jul 11 - 09:06 AM
Big Mick 14 Jul 11 - 09:14 AM
Bill D 14 Jul 11 - 09:19 AM
Girl Friday 14 Jul 11 - 09:55 AM
GUEST,Jeri, on a non-private computer in Quebec 14 Jul 11 - 10:01 AM
VirginiaTam 14 Jul 11 - 12:39 PM
DrugCrazed 14 Jul 11 - 01:11 PM
Arthur_itus 14 Jul 11 - 01:11 PM
gnu 14 Jul 11 - 01:41 PM
Max 14 Jul 11 - 06:40 PM
SylviaN 14 Jul 11 - 06:50 PM
MartinRyan 14 Jul 11 - 06:50 PM
Arthur_itus 14 Jul 11 - 07:00 PM
Noreen 14 Jul 11 - 07:05 PM
Jeri 14 Jul 11 - 07:07 PM
Max 14 Jul 11 - 07:12 PM
Arthur_itus 14 Jul 11 - 07:15 PM
Rapparee 14 Jul 11 - 07:24 PM
catspaw49 14 Jul 11 - 07:24 PM
katlaughing 14 Jul 11 - 07:27 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Jul 11 - 07:41 PM
Bernard 14 Jul 11 - 07:52 PM
Richard Bridge 14 Jul 11 - 10:15 PM
Bat Goddess 14 Jul 11 - 10:44 PM
Max 14 Jul 11 - 10:53 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 14 Jul 11 - 11:55 PM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 11 - 01:21 AM
Janie 15 Jul 11 - 01:56 AM
GUEST,livelylass 15 Jul 11 - 02:23 AM
GUEST,Bugsy 15 Jul 11 - 03:16 AM
GUEST,Bugsy 15 Jul 11 - 03:19 AM
GUEST 15 Jul 11 - 03:41 AM
treewind 15 Jul 11 - 03:43 AM
Jim Dixon 15 Jul 11 - 07:00 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 15 Jul 11 - 07:32 AM
Roger the Skiffler 15 Jul 11 - 08:21 AM
Soldier boy 15 Jul 11 - 10:29 AM
Richard from Liverpool 15 Jul 11 - 10:56 AM
Big Ballad Singer 15 Jul 11 - 11:02 AM
Jim Dixon 15 Jul 11 - 11:28 AM
Jeri 15 Jul 11 - 11:54 AM
Bill D 15 Jul 11 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,punkfolrocker 15 Jul 11 - 12:24 PM
Big Mick 15 Jul 11 - 12:52 PM
Max 19 Jul 11 - 03:34 AM
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Subject: Personal Pages Demise
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 03:46 PM

Can anyone advise me why I get the following message instead of my Personal Page.

"Disabled until further notice. Please contact no one at all for additional information"

Have I done something wrong? or is there a logical explanation, I am already missing it.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 03:50 PM

Hacked?


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 03:53 PM

No you haven't done anything wrong. Mudcat has been hacked and until it is sorted, PM's and new members have been stopped.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Beer
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 03:54 PM

If you check a little further below and go to the thread "From Max" you will understand.
You have done nothing wrong.
ad.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 03:55 PM

Just spotted the explanation in a Message from MAX

It may make some things more difficult for us, but there is a good reason.
Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 03:55 PM

Thanks Geoff, hope Mrs Duck and the Ducklings are all well.
Is there anything I can do to get it back. Can I set up another or is someone trying to help me already?


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 03:59 PM

Go look at the "State of the Mudcat" thread from Max just below here...Serious Hacking has been going on, and he's trying to sort out the situation. Some activist has been making waves apparently. Hi-Jacking peoples ID's. Not just on Mudcat, but, elswhere on the Web. Lots of us in the UK have had our ID's compromised. Hence my appearance here as "Guest"


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: GUEST,wys on kindle
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:01 PM

go max n go vols

~s~


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:03 PM

Thanks all, Patience increases with age.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:05 PM

Please, Ralph. I know your intentions are of the best, but Mudcat is not the place for such comments at the moment.
I would ask you to respect Max's statement when he says "Temporarily, we have to delete any mention of the political party or this situation until further notice." and accept that there is a pressing need to do so.

Other users please note!


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:12 PM

Yes I think this thread, understandably, will be deleted for everybodys safety.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Max
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:25 PM

Clarification:

mudcat.org has NOT been hacked.

This is a troll that creates new memberships with names very similar to existing members names and sends out lots of PMs.

PS... we know who it is.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:29 PM

Thanks Max
Is it possible to get rid of PMs and retain the rest of the Personal Page rather than loosing the lot?


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:35 PM

"mudcat.org has NOT been hacked"

How can you say that Max.

This supposed troll, has falsified Facebook accounts and other social accounts about Mudcat members, which are disgusting and very offensiive.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:40 PM

In real life my home phone no is ex directory and I only give it to closest family & trusted friends;
and I also never switch on my mobile
- just keeping it charged for outgoing 'emergency calls only.

So, in a similar fashion, is there a facility for individual members to disable PMs entirely,
or only enable them for selected known 'friends' ???


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:41 PM

My home phone is also ex directory PFR.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:49 PM

yes Arthur_itus , peace and quiet at home undisturbed by telesales callers
or late night drunk/stoned peripheral music acquaintances is paramount !!!

plus I never have or intend joining any social network sites

[though some of my mates are getting off on illicit meet ups
with old school and college girlfriends
they avoided & lost contact with over 1/4 century ago....]


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:52 PM

I get tele sales people cold calling.

I ask them if they would like a job with sex or travel. :-)


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:56 PM

* sex or travel = Sex and travel


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Max
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 05:10 PM

Creating fake Facebook accounts is not hacking.

Reading the posts that people make on this free and public site is not hacking.

Copying words from a free and public forum and pasting them anywhere for any reason is not hacking.

If you were all looking for a private conversation or a closed network of only like-minded people, you are in the wrong place.

I never offered that. I have no interest in that.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 05:14 PM

Nevertheless Max, quite a few mudcatters have, through no choice of their own, been spoofed on Facebook and other social websites and the perpetrator is a member of mudcat who has spoofed false accounts about other members of Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 05:22 PM

Max
I am sure that the majority of the UK membership are not apportioning blame.
Yes some people have been compromised, and I sympathise with them greatly. I am lucky and I do not appear to have any problems apart from the loss of my Prized Personal Page.
Lets look forward with optimism.

Now what's done is done and what's won is won
And what's lost is lost and gone forever
I can only pray for a bright brand new day
For the site we loved so well


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 05:35 PM

IMO, you all need to have patience and give Max some room and time to sort this all out. He's got enough on his hands to do with REAL life, job, etc. without having to answer every request for new features etc., even if they are well meant. TRUST HIM and leave it go for a bit, please.

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 05:46 PM

You have all asked for solutions. We are in the process of that. I would suggest that in the discussion of this, less is more. Let us be as we do our work and continue with your music and forum discussion.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:14 PM

I agree Mick, as long as i don't get spoofed again. I was so upset last time and found it so offensive what happened. You will never know how much.
Les


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:17 PM

The Mudcat forum (compared to most other forums) is unusual in it's openness to sabotage from Trolls. As a Guest I'm perfectly aware of the irony of that!

I guess it's an issue the 'benign dictatorship' of the management will have to work out - how far or otherwise, us subjects are free to express ourselves! Who'd be king, eh? ;-)


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:29 PM

Spoofed accounts are the nature of a public forum. Getting rid of them mostly involves forcing sign ups to be confirmed. Which would be a pain.

Whitelist only friend system would be interesting, but I'd argue that it's not a widely requested feature (I guess? Don't quote me)


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:32 PM

"Getting rid of [spoofed accounts] mostly involves forcing sign ups to be confirmed.
Whitelist only friend system would be interesting,"

Yep.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:40 PM

I am just totally fed up with Mudcat and their inability to deal with scumbags who abuse it's members.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: rhythmn
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:46 PM


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:46 PM

I am just totally fed up with Mudcat and their inability to deal with scumbags who abuse it's members.

So, Arthur, why not ask to have your admission fee returned?

I never saw any other forum that was available to anyone, with no charge, unless they chose to freely contribute a pittance, but that had more people complaining about the quality of the service!

Peter


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:48 PM

my simple solution is I never bother logging in

[ ok, maybe once or twice a year to see if I can remember my password ??? ],

and only communicate via the forum public threads..


then again, I only ever check my emails 2 or 3 times a month
in case the band have got a gig coming up
and they can't reach me cuz my phone's off the hook...


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Lanfranc
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:52 PM

I have removed myself from Facebook, not because I'd been hacked, scumbagged or anything like that. When a female "friend" sought my opinion as to what shoes to purchase, I looked at the other communications on my account and decided that life was too short for such trivia.

So I decided to come back to Mudcat and find this situation. At least the forum is still working.

Good luck, Max and Co, hope you get it sorted out. The Internet as a whole is being dragged down by spam and hacking - I guess it always has been up to a point, but lately it seems worse.

O tempora, O mores!

Alan


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Beer
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:55 PM

You may have removed yourself from facebook but they haven't removed you.
ad.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Noreen
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:56 PM

What is your solution, Arthur_itus?


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:57 PM

Peter
when you get abused with serious accusations that are so offensive, come back and chat. Until then don't make such snide remarks.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:58 PM

From Max's message about this: "We will not discuss this, publicly or privately... Thank you for your patience and silence (my emphasis) during this endeavor."

Given that the man has given us this forum and is now sweating cobs trying to resolve a problem not of his making, I reckon we should respect that and stop discussing this.

Instead go and listen to my new favourite band, Sproatly Smith.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 07:00 PM

I have already fed that to Max Noreen. There is a massive security issue here, and Max is doing his best to sort it. However, it is like reacting after the stable door .....


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 07:02 PM

It's Ok for the people that haven't been abused. you can say all you like. But for those that have, it's a nightmare.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear sans biscuit
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 07:07 PM

I'll Tip My Hat To The New Constitution
Take A Bow For The New Revolution
Smile And Grin At The Change All Around
Pick Up My Guitar And Play
Just Like Yesterday
Then I'll Get On My Knees And Pray
We Don't Get Fooled Again



would have been better if I could play guitar.....


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 07:22 PM

It will be most fortunate, imo, if Max doesn't just pull the plug on it all! Several of you have not *listened* to his request or that of other mods, including Mick and myself, to leave it go.

Some of us have been here long enough to remember a certain April Fool's day when we all thought Mudcat was going to be gone for good. We have not forgotten how that felt. It would have been a HUGE loss.

Think about that, please, and let this alone for Max to work on. Just about everything that could be said, HAS been said, sometimes ad infinitum. For once, please just give it a rest..


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Fergie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 08:46 PM

Good auld Mudcat, good auld Max, well done the moderators, the Mudelves and everybody concerned with this great forum for traditional song and whatever you come here for (as long as it's not to act the bollix). I think that we should let Max and Co. (and Joe Offer etc.) deal with this crisis and trust them to provide as good as solution as they have provided up to now. And with that I will say no more except a big thanks to Max et al.
Fergus


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 09:24 PM

Kif_Klat



Perhaps your most insightful posting in the past decade.



Sincerely,

Garoyle



The "crisis" is much smaller than any punt in a Euro sea of China Gold.




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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Max
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 10:13 PM

Working on a longer post for the other thread, but for now...

We've been dealing with Trolls for 15 years. Some very serious cases. With the cooperation of the members that were effected and involved, we managed to work through each one without compromising our (maybe only my) ideals or creating international legal disputes.

We haven't been able to discuss much of what we've been up to in this case for many reasons, one of which were specific technical details of the Troll's techniques, but we've been on this for a very long time.

I am most sorry for the VOLS who had to endure the accusations of incompetence and complacence and the sheer workload of moderation it has caused.

There is a whole lot of technical, sociological, political and legal depth and complexity to this case and this concept. The debates, as in this thread, have such enormous misconceptions that I don't even know where to begin to discuss them.

This has come to a head recently for a couple reasons.

1) I know who it is.
2) He was one of you before he was one of us.
3) An angry mob has formed.
4) We all grow weary.

I'll expound on these points later:

*Mudcat is not for everyone. Some members will be encouraged to retire.
*mudcat.org has to deal with the troll independent of the ideologies
*UK members are 1/4 of the mudcat community. Our standards, philosophies, goals, freedoms, rules, allowances... are for the whole.
*Freedom remains a fundamental principal of mudcat.org


The vols are not at fault here, please direct all criticism, anger, comments, etc at ME.

I am sorry that I will still not be able to share much of what's happening or engage in debate, read all the comments, answer many questions, accept any emails or allow you to discuss it in the forum. This will not be a democratic process.


There is a lot flying around out there and I'm communicating some difficult things to people who don't want to hear it and aren't really listening. If you come to question my ideology, my intent, my sincerity, my loyalty, etc. I encourage you to reach out and ask someone who has met me as to what kind of man I am.

Words on page lack empathy and can take us no farther. I'll take calls as I am able.

814-205-FOLK



This thread will close when I sleep and open again when I wake. Any other threads discussing this matter will be deleted.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 10:24 PM

Chat is open for discussiom !!


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Beer
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 10:27 PM

"This will not be a democratic process."

I don't know who said the following , but I never forgot it.

"Autocratic clarity is a ton better than participative fuzziness
I think that statement applies now.

Wish I could help some how.
ad.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:27 AM

I have met Max and we are good friends. He is one of the best people I know and he is up against crap of which most know not. I know what the real problem is and believe me it is a bitch!
Joe and I have had our differences and there were times when he was more of a gentleman than I was. I wouldn't have his job for any amount of pay, and he does it gratis!

I don't know who told you that you need Max's permission to leave but that is bogus. He is not Hitler.

As someone said, if you want to leave, leave.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 09:06 AM

WHY DOES EVERY COMMUNITY I JOIN HAVE SOMEONE/SOMETHING TRYING TO BREAK IT?

I hate you internet sometimes. Then I find a cat video and I forgive you.

To lighten the mood, let's be cutesy with Sloths, Penguins and Kittens. You still mad? Then you are broken.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 09:14 AM

Folks, while I have been involved in the background, I have avoided the conversations, in Email and here, as no good comes of it. While the support is appreciated, it is not needed. This person we are dealing with revels in in it. I am going to offer this one piece of advice. If you are a supporter of the Mudcat and want to see it survive, just leave this conversation and continue with your other discussions of music and issues as normal. Further discussions only serve to feed that which we are attempting to end. Thanks for the support, but now is the time to be quiet as we go about our work. If you once loved the Mudcat, but now are angry at what we have to do, fair enough. Kindly leave, and know that we hope you return one day to a Mudcat that more closely resembles that which you once cared about.

The meds we have to administer to the 'Cat are strong, and have side effects. But the illness is at a critical stage. Max has invested his treasure and time, and loves his creation more than you know. But he is also as savvy a tech/Internet guy as exists. You don't have to like the frustration he expressed, but understand he knows how to deal with this.

Now be quiet and go enjoy this site while we go about the business at hand.

All the best, (really)

Mick


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 09:19 AM

"WHY DOES EVERY COMMUNITY I JOIN HAVE SOMEONE/SOMETHING TRYING TO BREAK IT?"

Because the (relative) anonymity of the internet/WWW allows 'some' folk to express their eccentricities all-too-easily. People do from behind a keyboard things that most of them would never do in person.

Give Max time to sort this out. Mudcat is 15 years old. Max is not going to let an occasional 'problem child' ruin it for everyone else.

WAIT... be patient... read some music threads. Go read "The News of the Word" ooops...The Times?

*I* have an outstanding PM I'd like an answer to... but it will wait.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Girl Friday
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 09:55 AM

I too have had the pleasure of meeting Max. He's an ok Guy!
I am pleased and priveledged to know you Max, and call you friend.
You have an unenviable task on your hands.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: GUEST,Jeri, on a non-private computer in Quebec
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 10:01 AM

Will verify by some other means later -- I will log in from Toronto and confirm its me if I can. I dont dare log in here because I may not be able to log out.

There are people who simply resent others enjoying ANYTHING or feeling like part of a community. Easy enough for me to ignore until they start pissing off friends.

Max, you know you have my support.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 12:39 PM

to Max and Mods

I support this and thank you

to all others

Peace


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 01:11 PM

Indeed, I support this endeavour entirely. I mean, where else can I take pleasure in being the youngest?

As I say, if you're worried about this, the three videos up there will fix it. There's a penguin being tickled for chrissake!

(I move that the rest of this thread become "Still mad? Then have this cute picture/video")

Because the internet needs more cats. Especially mud ones. Brb, going to get the neighbours cat dirty.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 01:11 PM

Here is a very nice song to chill out on from one of my favourite singer songwriters Clifford T Ward - Home Thoughts From Abroad. Goes great with a glass of wine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9G0ENZJLI8&feature=fvwrel


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: gnu
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 01:41 PM

Max... sic the Spiegel Beagle on his/her ass! Arrroooo... arrroooo...

Sorry, I had to say it.

Good luck with it and I feel sorry that you/se have had your valuable time taken up by this asshole. In a way, I hope someday the name of this unsavoury piece of trash is made public. Maybe I am wrong... well... probably.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Max
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 06:40 PM

I'll try to leave this open for an hour or two. I'll take as much as I can manage.

Bring it.

but read this first


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: SylviaN
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 06:50 PM

You have my support, Max, and Keith's.
xxx


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 06:50 PM

Keep the faith, Max!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:00 PM

Max, when somebody changes the coding so that the IP is not correct before they send a message they are hacking, knowing that they can't be easily traced. If they didn't change the coding, you would know who they are.

This is one of the meanings of hacking - To use one's skill in computer programming to gain illegal or unauthorized access to a file or network

This person has illegally changed coding sent to Mudcat, in order to spoof members and not be traced. The same applies with Facebook and all the other social network cases.

Most forums check the IP first and require a return email, before that person will be allowed to join it. Obviously, Mudcat does employ that technique.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Noreen
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:05 PM

Hugs, Max.

(Your last paragraph on the other thread made me sniffle)


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:07 PM

Yep, that was me up there.
I don't think a person can fake an IP address, although using a proxy is a possibility.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Max
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:12 PM

Gee, thanks Arthur_itus, I had no idea how these internets worked.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:15 PM

Ther is no need to be sarcastic Max.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:24 PM

Do what needs doing, Max. Let me know if I can help in any way.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:24 PM

Life is too short to not be sarcastic!


Spaw


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:27 PM

And the beat goes on...

luvyaMax,

kat


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:41 PM

""It's Ok for the people that haven't been abused. you can say all you like. But for those that have, it's a nightmare.""

Arthur, please listen and take on board what you are being told. I'm one of those who you mention above, and probably more so than you, but I trust Max and the VOLS to deal with it.

Now I'm going to take my own advice and STFU.

See you on the music threads, I hope.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:52 PM

I'm sure these issues will be resolved in the fullness of time... meanwhile, let's butt out and leave well alone...!

Jumping up and down and yelling solves nowt!

...and relax!


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 10:15 PM

I am concerned by what appear to be misunderstandings between those on the one hand being criticised by Max, and those on the other hand criticising Max and Joe, and indeed by apparent internal consistencies (no names, no pack drill) in what has been expressed.

But there is one thing that needs to be said, and said loudly. If it is right (and I think that it is indeed right) that a specific hate group has become an enemy of the mudcat (as distinct from there being simple trolling), it is because what has been said on the mudcat has for the most part been right on two levels. First the mudcat has mostly observed that most American of virtues (in my mouth this is a term of not wholly unalloyed praise) freedom of speech; and secondly because the preponderance of mudcatters expressing relevant views have expressed very proper views of opposition to that hate group.

We should be proud of that.

I'm not going into more detail here.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 10:44 PM

Max, what you do is incredibly good. I'm behind you 100% and I'm unbelievably glad you're willing to do what you need to do to keep this Mudcat community alive.

Thank you. Thank you for whatever you do. Thank you again just because you need to be thanked as much as possible.

My life is richer because of Mudcat and there would be no Mudcat without Max.

Thank you.

Linn


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Max
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 10:53 PM

more


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 11:55 PM

While as Mudcat members we may feel a sense of entitlement we are in reality guests on Max's site. As a source of exchanging information on musical subjects it has been a fantastic resource! Sometimes the stuff below the line has hit a bit below the belt, and I have been as guilty as any in participating in heated exchanges, but that has been a part of the charm of this site. I would urge all to respect and support Max in his endeavors because it is his plug to pull. Perhaps the time has come to restrict the site to "music only" but I hope that other solutions will be found!
Over the years I have benefited from the knowledge of others here and I hope, in some small way that I may have contributed some useful information as well. Thanks Max, Joe, and all clones for keeping this running! I believe that in this I speak for many more besides myself!


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 01:21 AM

I'm trying to find a quote I came across. I think it was a quote from Louis Kahn in the biographical film his son produced, titled My Architect. As I recall, the quote went something like this:
    Everyone speaks the truth. It may be their truth - but to them, it is the truth.
I think that too often, we live in a world where it appears that everyone is trying to deceive us. I've found that's not so - people generally speak what they believe, and they hold sacred what they believe.

Here on the Internet, we tend to speak on a deeper level than we would in "real life." We say what's sacred and true to us, and we have the expectation that people should see what we say as sacred and true. Unfortunately, things don't work that way, because other people speak what they hold as sacred and true - and their truth sometimes conflicts with our truth. In that case, we tend to think that they're lying or not showing us the respect we deserve, and thus conflict develops.

So, believe it or not, this is leading to something - an observation that has come clear to me in the current debate. It is important for me to speak my truth in discussions; but it's also important for me to know when to let go, to realize that the other person is also speaking what he holds true and sacred - and that my truth and his truth may not always coincide. At that point, we need to step back and accept that we have said what we can say, and further discussion will only belabor the point and cause animosity.

What happens here at Mudcat, is that people don't realize when they start going around in circles, and then the discussion becomes bitter. Max has suggested that perhaps we should experiment with tightening up on moderation. I think what I'm going to do is close threads when they start getting bitter, giving people the opportunity to either stop the discussion or begin anew in another thread. I'm hoping that will settle things down without being too harsh a measure.

Please remember that everyone who has posted in this thread, has spoken the truth - even though we may disagree quite vehemently.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Janie
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 01:56 AM

Well said, Joe.

Well said.

Max, I have little idea about what has happened and is happening. I can only imagine the number of e-mails you and joe and other mods. have been receiving and also imagine the volume has turned into a barrage.

In the fwiw department, I opine that it is in the best interest of both you and Mudcat, at this juncture, for you to say less rather than more on the public forum regarding your thoughts and emotional reactions to what is happening. Your long policy of stating what your values and policies are, clearly and succinctly, and only occasionally, has stood you and Mudcat well. Suggest you continue that at the present time.

From what you have posted, it sounds like it may be to the advantage of the continuation of this forum for you to have access to good legal counsel.

Good legal advise can be expensive.

If you think or feel you need permission to do so, you have my permission to contact me via my e-mail address to solicit donations for legal counsel.

If there are others reading this thread who are willing to have Max or others authorized by Max to contact you via your e-mail address on file for the purpose of soliciting donations for a legal fund should he deem that necessary, please post that permission here, unless or until Max posts different instructions.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 02:23 AM

"Perhaps the time has come to restrict the site to "music only" but I hope that other solutions will be found"

Not a bad idea I'd have thought. Or let BS be members-only and separate it somehow from the mother ship. While some members no doubt value the BS drop-in centre highly, the musical resources are supposedly what Mudcat's remit is about (in fact isn't Mudcat a folk-music charity of some kind?)
It would certainly tidy up the issues around 'freedom of speech' without either censoring specific non-musical topics, or banning specific individuals from participating in music discussions.

Whatever happens, I do hope the musical resource remains. If that means tightening aspects of moderation, so be it.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: GUEST,Bugsy
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 03:16 AM

I knew nothing of this problem until this morning when I tried to log in and couldn't retrieve my cookie.

Max, you and your helpers have done, and continue to do a fantastic job with Mudcat. I've been a member since 1999 and check out the site daily.l

I sincerely hope that you can clear up this mess soon, and will now shut my face and let you guys get on with it!

ONYA!!!


CHeers from Australia,

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: GUEST,Bugsy
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 03:19 AM

p.s.

Please don't take too long, it's cold out here in the "Guest room"

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 03:41 AM

Max, are you sure there hasn't been some hacking?
I got a strange email yesterday, with a link to a page on flickr.com with a collection of pictures - at least two of them were lists of Mudcat names and email addresses. At the time I didn't know about Mudcat's problems, so I just deleted the message, though maybe that was the best thing to do anyway as it wouldn't have told you anything you didn't know already.

I suppose the email addresses could have been collected from somewhere else, but it seemed odd.

Anyway, fight on, and don't feel apologetic about it.
The very best to you and the vols.
Anahata


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: treewind
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 03:43 AM

Oops - lost cookie!
The above was me...


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 07:00 AM

I have to admit I don't understand what all the commotion is about.

That's OK; don't bother explaining it to me; I don't really want to know.

Max, if you're reading this, I just want to make sure you understand that there are a lot of people (like me) who have been quite successfully and happily staying outside the trouble zone, who are neither abused nor abusers, and who have no complaints about the way Mudcat is being run.

I have heard it said, in business, that 10% of your customers cause 90% of your problems (or something like that) and if you can identify those 10% and get rid of them, your profits will go up. I'm sure there is some analogous rule for nonprofits. But what will go up will be your ability to provide a nurturing habitat for the 90% who remain and for those who might join in the future.

I, for one, trust that that will happen.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 07:32 AM

Max, I'm just chiming in as one who has been hanging around for most of the fun (since 1998).
You have done more to expand and enhance the quality of my life as regards my knowledge of the many-faceted world of folk music, and my friendships the world over, than anyone else I can think of. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

My usual practice when someone I care about is going through a struggle is to stand quietly by, offering love and support, and help if needed. So here I am.

(Meanwhile, to the rest of us, I offer a phrase I see often on another site that is about knitting, not music: "Don't poke the crazy!").


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 08:21 AM

Although I miss the ability to check my "traced" threads & archive, I know things must have got really bad if the VERY tolerant Max has had to take such a drastic step. As I only look at a couple of BS threads (jokes, Brett's Guam posts, the Tavern) I was unaware of the trolls and flaming going on. I know for years despite pleas to "just ignore them", 'Catters have engaged with trolls and flamers thus giving them a platform. If it has spread to PMs I can see Max had to act.
The rest of the 'Cat will survive, hopefully more focussed.

RtS


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Soldier boy
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 10:29 AM

Hi Max

It is a very sad day indeed when things have come to this.

I don't understand exactly what has gone on but I think we are all aware that there is a number of vitriolic people who continually spit their venom and flit from thread to thread and grow like a cancer in the body of Mudcat.
I am also sure that such poisonous dwarves exist on and infect all social networks and thrive on inflicting misery on honest and innocent people and grow fat on their bile!

There is only one thing you can do and I am sure that 99% of Mudcat members will be fully behind you. You must take the decisive action you are resolved to do and cut out this cancer for good so that the rest of the body may survive and thrive.

So you and Joe and the rest of your great crew must don your surgical gowns and sharpen your scalpels and cut deep to remove the whole tumour.

Me and all Mudcatters in the UK (apart from the Troll and the angry mob,whoever they are) are 100% behind you and know for certain that you have no negative opinions of the UK. Your trip to the UK last summer certainly proved that and we loved you for it, and boy, what a reception you got here!

Any social network, forum, membership, social club, pub, working mans club, casino, restaurant, hotel etc etc etc has the right to put up a public notice that states that they; the owners, the management, the committee, the licencee etc etc have the right to refuse, not accept, eject or disbar any person for misconduct or for whatever other reason at the complete discretion of the management,committee etc.

Surely the same applies to Mudcat and similar forums, memberships and social networks alike.

So whilst I know it will pain you very much to do it Max because it goes against all your principles and sense of fairness and fair play; if the situation has got so bad, which it obviously now has, then you have no alternative than to take decisive and swift action.

It sounds like the operation will not be straight forward and could require some very skillful, delicate and intricate use of the knife and could take some considerable time to cut out the rot completely.

We wish you and all the team every success and a return to good health and a full recovery.

God bless you all and damn the cancerous poisonous dwarves to hell!

Chris


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Richard from Liverpool
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 10:56 AM

Not a longstanding user here, so you can dismiss my feelings here as you feel appropriate. But I have to say, the thing that upsets me is that, as far as I can see, the people who are being attacked as an "angry mob" (and now getting called things like "cancerous poisonous dwarves" - come on!) are people who I have sung with and learned from, and whose crime seems primarily to be their wish to stand up against a particular fascist organisation through reclaiming the music they love. I can recognise the technical problems the forum faces, but I think that the fact that those who are the victims in this situation (i.e. people who have been targetted by the BNP) are being made to feel like the criminals is a step too far.

I don't claim to speak on behalf of the "quarter of our community" who are apparently deemed to be more trouble than they're worth. I'm just saying that we're losing musical knowledge and attacking people of real principles here because of what are, essentially, the technical limitations of this forum.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Big Ballad Singer
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 11:02 AM

I've got your back, too, Max. I haven't always been a contributor, and much of my contributing has been of the dreck variety, but I value this place and its members and what it stands for.

There are LOTS of us here, with lots of different social, religious, political and musical similarities and differences. Sometimes, the similarities turn into friendships... sometimes, the differences turn into disagreements. Never, though, should the Mudcat be allowed to turn into anyone's personal vehicle to advance one ideology or another.

Sure, we can all express, we can all share. There is, however, IMHO, no place for "carte blanche" to be given to anyone to just advertise and propagandize or do any other -izing, no matter how much I or anyone might agree with what they say.

To me, this is an issue on par (smaller scale, perhaps, but of much the same significance) with the issue in the US of whether same-sex couples should have completely equal rights under the law as hetero couples do. Our Constitution makes no provision for any sort of bias against anyone or the pursuit of their happiness and well-being.

That being said, while no one can be denied any benefit of the law, neither is it right for anyone to ask for any special treatment under the same law. It's equality that the law is meant to create, not favoritism.

Basically, Max's job is to make sure that we can all bring our opinions, ideas and world-views to the table, no matter how much bullshittery any opinion may represent.

All I'm saying, and all I think Max is saying, is that we have to bring our bullshittery to the table with a heart towards sharing, encouraging and caring for one another as a community. No one should be allowed a bully pulpit, and if these other people have attempted to make Mudcat their own personal one, then, as they say, "...and the horse they rode in on."

I'm a descendant of sailors and whalers; mutiny is a nasty, awful thing. I'm with the captain on this.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 11:28 AM

The angry mob always feels that their anger is justified.

Regardless of their intent, they are using a method that has been shown over and over not to work.

They have been told over and over again "Don't feed the trolls" but they disregard our advice.

They remind me of the guerrillas who set up their missile-launchers in residential neighborhoods, lob missiles at a distant enemy, and then claim they are not responsible for the collateral damage when the enemy lobs missiles back at them.

It's time for the residents to kick them out.

They can continue to fight the war they so loyally believe in, but let them do it from somewhere else.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 11:54 AM

I never had an objection to fighting the Bad Stuff. I have a problem with doing so ineffectively in a way that makes things tough for those not involved. People in other places on the internet have figured out that they get more of the sort of stuff they contribute to, in a much higher volume depending on emotional temperature. Not at Mudcat... but I think they're OK with it.

I decided a while back to not worry about what other people did much. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like this troll to be dealt with.


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 12:08 PM

"The Angry Mob" is mostly a group who have found a way to use Mudcat fight among themselves, and who also complain bitterly about 'freedom' and 'censorship' when Mudcat tries to control the more vitrolic aspects of their feuds.

**When personal differences are disputed in a public forum, it disturbs the equilibrium for others!**

I'm sure, as Joe Offer said, that the most egregious offenders feel they are 'speaking the truth', and they rise up in righteous indignation when called to task for their acrimonious postings.
   Then, when only ONE person takes it so far as to forge memberships in Mudcat and create Facebook pages and send forged PMs to further stir the pot, "The Angry Mob" seems to feel justified in engaging in a swirl of accusations and demands that Mudcat (Max...or Joe...etc,) **fix it** and prevent those they, the Mob, disapprove of.
Can you not see that those "righteous ones" become as big a nuisance as the TROLL??
Do not assume that "the squeaky wheel get the grease".... sometimes the squeaky wheel just gets taken off & replaced. There are (were) standard ways to complain and cope with the (supposed) bad behavior of others, but public complaints about 'management practices' is not the best approach.

This forum has these problems BECAUSE it has been one of the freest forums anywhere... so those who INTEND to promote personal causes occasionally get the idea that there SHOULD be no limits on their crusade(s).

Max is now trying to sort out who needs... um... reining in... and how to do it with the least effect on everyone else. Let him do it! And when it is done, don't become part of the NEXT problem!


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: GUEST,punkfolrocker
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 12:24 PM

Whilst not wishing to add fuel to the flaming
or condone the petty pathetic obsessive excesses of some clearly disturbed individuals,
I do feel it appropriate to contribute a personal observation....

Sadly I've witnessed this kind of dire situation in so many different social
places so many times before..


"Its too scary to antagonize let alone confront the powerful organized hostile intimidating disruptive right wing bullies.
So even though all decent people here agree they are in the wrong and should be curtailed,
for the sake of peace, safety and survival we'll dictate a new emergency facade of sternly imposed neutrality.

From now we will ban all political and religious discussion,
in fact any topic the least bit contentious that may attract the bullies negative attention;
while at the same time marginalising, and even where expedient discrediting and evicting,
those good principled but somewhat hot-headed militant people most vocally opposed to the unpleasant bullying..."

In fact this is exactly what happened at another fantastic friendly lively very popular international musicians forum.
The bullies openly paraded their smug self satisfaction at their victory in forever more stifling any intelligent 'progressive' debate.

WE all respected the head Admin and founder of the forum
but he was maybe too idealistic, naive, and trusting in people;
and it was no secret that some of the worse known bullies were mods and contributors to website running expenses..

The new 'music only' regime became so sterile and anodyne and dull, many many ordinary members including myself
began drifting away searching for more positive enlightened pastures.
That's when, nearly 10 years ago, I considered my self very lucky indeed to find mudcat community.

..shame history forever repeats itself.. !!!????

That other forum gradually sputtered out and all but ceased to exist
within not too many years of being neutered by the intenal 'right wing junta'...


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 12:52 PM

Soldier Boy Chris and Jim Dixon have nailed it. You are exactly the types we are trying to save this marvelous place for.

The real threat to this place is something Max addressed in his State of the Mudcat thread. This troll is very good, but we can and will deal with him. He represents a very serious situation, but we are not going to let this person destroy the essence of the cat in dealing with him. No, the real threat to "the place we always wanted to live" (Sandy Paton, circa 1999 mas o menos) is that Max loses interest in the running of the place. Over the years he and I have become very close friends. That is germane only in that I understand this wonderful friend very well. He is raising kids, pursuing a career, and being manipulated by Merle the beagle. There have been times over the last 15 years when I found myself wondering why he has continued to allow this thing to consume his time with his kids and dog, affect his career, and eat at his sparse resources. The answer has always come back to one thing. He loves the world wide community he has created. He knows that we have members whose lives have been given meaning and validation by their ability to have contact with a wider world. He knows that folks like me have seen avenues to perform open up that were not there before. Here I met and became friends with Rick Fielding, Caroline and Sandy Paton, Joe Hickerson, Jean Ritchie. I have met and sang with Oscar Brand, Charley, Lisa, Jennifer, Bob, Kath and all my beloved FSGW friends, Kendall Morse and Jacqui Morse, the Schatz boys and their beautiful mom, the Mudcatters that come to Getaway and many others around the country. I have been a contributing artist on a Grammy nominated CD. Max has made every single one of those things happen with this site. And I am but one of many of such stories.THAT is why he kept this going.

But we are in danger now. He is tiring. He is wondering if it is time to wrap it. Not because of the troll. Hell, he is interested and a bit charged up at decimating the troll. But what is tiring him is a group of Mudcatters, most in the UK but some in the US as well, that only piss and moan, and attack those who don't fit the mold. I have watched them hound one woman mercilessly over her simplistic views about what she enjoys in music. She can be annoying to me at times, but the pack glommed onto her in a vicious manner to the point that she has become problematic. What should have nothing more than one of the interesting characters in our village has become the object of some of the most hateful and hurtful attacks by the pack I have ever seen. No friends, the danger to Max pulling the plug isn't the troll. It is those among you who have attempted to impose your will as to who is valid and who is not on our place.

Two last points that need to be said. You cannot hold us responsible for the evil actions of people outside of Mudcat. You all chose to join, and even after knowing that this forum operates in a very open manner, you left your info out there and took stands your adversaries would attack. We cannot control what others do with that. And spare me all this "I am a fighter and must fight the fascists" diatribe. No one is stopping you. Go fight them. Just don't expect us to put ourselves in legal jeopardy as you do so. There are very few of you that know what you are talking about with regard to the various laws involved. And quite frankly you have no clue as to the sophistication of the committed trolls. And finally on this point, to those of you circulating, in private FB groups the list you say was hacked or released of email addies...as proof that we have been hacked, you are just wrong. All of that is freely available on the Internet.

Last word. Max is a great guy. He is trying to protect Joe, myself, and the rest of the volunteer mods by saying you should not blame us. I can only say that it shows he is a man of uncommon character and honor. He is also wrong on this one. You may and should hold me accountable for what we are doing right now. I support it, I am part of the decision process, and will happily take any heat necessaryas we try to save this place and return it to "the place I always wanted to live". To those feeling under attack, please resign your membership with our thanks for having done so. To the other 99+%, hang in there as we navigate this bumpy road. It leads back to the Mudcat you all fell in love with.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Personal Pages Demise
From: Max
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 03:34 AM

Personal Pages, Personal Messages and Logins are now permitted. New Membership has new terms. All subject to change at any moment with no notice.

We are enforcing a zero tolerances policy on that-of-which-we-do-not-speak. Suspensions for violations are guaranteed. If you do not know what that is, you probably don't have to worry about it, but avoiding polarizing ideologies and hot button subject matter is strongly advised.

If you have any questions about this email me.

Let us tread gently forward.

Have a nice day.


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