Lyr Req: California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)

Subject: Lyr Add: CALIFORNIA DREAMIN' (J & M Phillips)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 02:13 PM

Andy: I liked your story about singing this song and inviting audience participation. I'd like to hear that.

Your correction "The preacher lights the coals" makes sense. Just to make sure, I listened to a couple of recordings on YouTube. The lead singer (John Phillips?) does garble that line a bit, so I'm not surprised a lot of people got it wrong, but the response is clearer. In short, I think you're right—except I'm not sure whether it's "coal" or "coals".

I searched with Google, too, and I see a lot of people have had trouble with that line. Besides "the preacher likes the cold" I also found "the preacher likes it cold," "the preacher loves the cold," "the preacher is like a god," and "the preacher locked the door"!

Here's another correction: It's "I've been for a walk", not "I went for a walk."

The above transcription is wrong on several details, such as when the responses are sung. I suspect it was transcribed from a different recording than the one that was a hit for the Mamas & Papas. I think you can trust the following version, which I diligently compared to the recording:


CALIFORNIA DREAMIN'
John Phillips, Michelle Phillips

All the leaves are brown (all the leaves are brown)
And the sky is gray (and the sky is gray)
I've been for a walk (I've been for a walk)
On a winter's day (on a winter's day)
I'd be safe and warm (I'd be safe and warm)
If I was in L.A. (if I was in L.A.)
California dreamin' (California dreamin')
On such a winter's day.

Stopped into a church
I passed along the way
Well, I got down on my knees (got down on my knees)
And I pretend to pray (I pretend to pray)
You know, the preacher lights the coals (preacher lights the coals)
He knows I'm gonna stay (knows I'm gonna stay)
California dreamin' (California dreamin')
On such a winter's day.

[Instrumental break with flute]

All the leaves are brown (all the leaves are brown)
And the sky is gray (and the sky is gray)
I've been for a walk (I've been for a walk)
On a winter's day (on a winter's day)
If I didn't tell her (if I didn't tell her)
I could leave today (I could leave today)
California dreamin' (California dreamin')
On such a winter's day (California dreamin')
On such a winter's day (California dreamin')
On such a winter's day.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: AndyHowell
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 08:57 PM

Wow, this is quite a thread with the perfect ending finally giving the lyrics. You can almost hear them singing. But there is a mistake in the lyrics that must be corrected. I sing folk songs and write some as well, and saw Arlo a couple of years ago finish a set with a story or him and Pete touring in Europe. Pete is the best at sing alongs and Arlo is second. So on this night he told this story that for an encore he decided he wanted the audience to sing along. So he told them that he was going to do a song from one of America's most famous folk singers --- Elvis Presley. He said he thought Pete was going to strangle him as he started in with "Wise men say, only fools rush in" he said he looked over at Pete and Pete was strumming his banjo. Pete knew it. With all the argument about folk songs, it was, Arlo said more important that folks sing -- together, for that brings us together. And so I thought California Dreaming would be perfect for that for as a single singer, I couldn't echo the lines back to myself but an audience could. So I looked up the lyrics on the internet and was given my first clue by the first sight I found that said they listened to the song and wrote the lyrics from that. The mistake is in the second verse. "You know the preacher likes the cold. He knows I'm gonna stay" it didn't make sense. I'd always sung it another way. And so I found an old vinyl album (remember vinyl?)of the Mamas and Papas and there were the words I remembered printed on the back, which I guess two generations from those of us who wandered this country with backpacks and our thumbs out, you wouldn't realize the mistake (and in reference to the lyrics above the first two line are not repeated.

Stopped into a church
I passed alone the way
Well I got down on my knees
And I pretend to pray
You know the preacher lights the coals
He knows I'm gonna stay
California Dreaming
On such a winters day

You see the difference. If we were all to sing together, get out on the road together again, we'd instinctively know the difference, I guess. That was a long time ago. Haven't played that song in years, but it did mean something once. It's cold here as I write this. A little dreaming never hurt.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 02:12 AM

All the leaves are brown
And the sky is grey
I went for a walk
On a winter's day
I'd be safe and warm
If I was in L.A.
California dreamin'
On such a winter's day

I stopped into a church (stopped into a church)
I passed along the way (passed along the way)
You know, I got down on my knees (got down on my knees)
And I pretend to pray (I pretend to pray)
Oh, the preacher likes the cold (preacher likes the cold)
He knows I'm gonna stay (knows I'm gonna stay)
Oh, California dreamin' (California dreamin')
On such a winter's day

All the leaves are brown (the leaves are brown)
And the sky is grey (and the sky is grey)
I went for a walk (I went for a walk)
On a winter's day (on a winter's day)
If I didn't tell her (if I didn't tell her)
I could leave today (I could leave today)

Oh, California dreamin' (California dreamin')
On such a winter's day (California dreamin')
On such a winter's day (California dreamin')
On such a winter's day (California dreamin')
On such a winter's day

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:12 AM

According to Barry "Eve of Destruction" McGuire, he recorded this song and a group of unknowns was brought in at a later recording session to do the background vocals. The producer liked them so much that he had McGuire's vocal track erased and the Mommas and the Poppas recorded over the original version. He claims that if you turn the song up loud, you can still hear traces of his singing.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:04 AM

Don,

Your thought also kind've again raises that thorny issue of 'what is a folk song?'

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: clueless don
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:49 AM

Referring to earlier discussions on this thread (back in '97), I have this thought. I understand that this is (as Bill D always used to remind us) a "folk and blues forum". And yet, I have found it to be a valuable resource for more general music. I have learned much by posting inquiries (enquiries?) here, many of them not about folk songs. It is a place where one's question may be read and, often, answered by actual human beings.

The counter argument, as I understand it, is that questions about non-folk music should be posted on a more appropriate forum. My question is: What is that forum?? I'm not trying to be cute here - I would genuinely like to know where there is a forum that works the way the mudcat forum works, but which is concerned with more general music.

Don

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: toadfrog
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 09:58 PM

Hey! It's the theme song from Shanghai Express

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Justa Picker
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 02:34 PM

Here you go Joe.

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Grab
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 02:21 PM

And no-one ever did post "My boomerang won't come back" for Joe...

Grab.

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 04:47 AM

Wonder what happened to all those posters of 1997 we no longer hear from? (I don't need to know, I'm just nosy!)
RtS

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 04:18 AM

I think it is a perfect moment in time to refresh this old thread.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 07 May 97 - 03:32 PM

Dear Frank, Not to move topics completely, but I think this raises a question of what the Web ought to be for. It should be to enhance human interaction, not the proliferation of search engines. To my mind a discussion forum is a kind of commons, to which people belong and contribute out of modified self-interest -- that is, they are willing to help others on the assumption that when they need something, there are others with a whole other range of expertise available. This mutual aid is much more efficient than a whole stack of Web browsers, and of course more interesting. The secret is (as Elsie would say) is manners, and not trying people's patience too much. I don't think there is anything wrong with out of limits requests or shots-in-the-dark from time to time: that is human efficiency at its best. A sort of creative shuffling and negotitation process. Why work through programmes, search engines and the rest -- which are incredibly frustrating and time consuming -- when you can ask other people using the Web? No Yahoo/Altavista in the world can beat Dick and Susan and Gene and Bert and Frank and whoever else is DT (or so I have learned). There will never be an IBM "Deep Folk"!! Yours, Peter

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Elsie
Date: 07 May 97 - 02:55 PM

Oh! I'm SO embarrassed! I didn't realize....all that research and study.....gone for naught-*sigh*.........

ummmmm....how shall we break the news to Dick G that he has to delete 6,494 songs and add 1?

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From:
Date: 07 May 97 - 01:45 PM

Peter

I am not sure where but somewhere in my misspent youth I heard what I'm sure was "The Mermaid" under the title of "The Salem Farewell"

Elsie

In the course of this thread I have come around completely to your point of view. This site can and should try to limit itself to folk music because we already have what can be viewed as a site called "Music". It's the Web itself. It just contains a little bit of extra stuff that doesn't pertain to music and you need to get past that extra stuff AND that's the problem.

Today I posted a request for a Jud Strunk song that was in fact a cover and available elsewhere. I did so because a) Given the artist it seemed possible that it was folk, and b) I had not found it elswhere because I failed to get past "the extra stuff". This was due to my wild and crazy assumption that a string of words delimited by blanks would be treated similarly on different browsers. Hence I needed to use only one browser. Silly me!! Computer programs doing the same job, working the same way!! What WAS I thinking of.

Of course it's my own fault. I have worked as a programmer /systems analyst since January 1969 and cannot count the number of times I have uttered the following maxim.

"Computer Software Design Standards are wonderful. There's one for every program."

I will, in future, try to exhaust ALL browsers using ALL possible input string options before I post.

Frank Phillips

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 07 May 97 - 11:53 AM

Ignore that remark. I looked it up in the database, the way you are supposed to. 4 versions. Yours, Peter

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Elsie
Date: 07 May 97 - 11:47 AM

Oh! I'm SO embarrassed! I didn't realize....all that research and study.....gone for naught-*sigh*.........

ummmmm....how shall we break the news to Dick G that he has to delete 6,494 songs and add 1?

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 07 May 97 - 11:45 AM

What is the mermaid? (gulp)

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From:
Date: 07 May 97 - 11:20 AM

The problem is solved!! I have the definitive definition.

I asked my kids (in their early 20's) what constituted a folk song. Their reply: "Folk songs are what you sang around the fire during our camping trips of the 70;s and 80's. You know, the one's you learned from the Calgary Board of Education night classes in Folk Guitar"

Thus I am pleased to announce that there only are 5 folk songs. They are:

There but for fortune. The mermaid. When the saint's go marching in. Charlie and the MTA.

AAAND

California Dreamin.

See how simple it is when you go to the right source for the information.

Glad to have helped.

Frank Phillips

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Susan
Date: 06 May 97 - 06:03 PM

I have a book that is a pretty good sourcebook-for amatuers (sp?) like me anyway...It's called _Gonna Sing My Head Off:American Folksongs for Children_. Collected and arranged by Kathleen Krull. I bought it back in the early 1990's, hopefully it is still available somewhere.

And Steamship,so that you might rest easier about the state of education, I'm surprised I can sing for my final also. But I do have to provide historical context and discuss the societal forces that were prevalent at the time the various songs I am singing were written. But I will do a better job with sentance structure-I'm a bit flustered right now, I get to take my oldest to get his driving learners permit-YIKES!

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Bert
Date: 06 May 97 - 04:30 PM

http://www.summer.com.br/~pfilho/oldies_list/ron_transc/purple_people_eater.txt

Couldn't resist it.

Bert.

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Steamship
Date: 06 May 97 - 03:09 PM

I sure wish I could have sung someone else's song instead of taking a final exam. And even have someone else provide me with the words! Only in California?

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From:
Date: 06 May 97 - 10:20 AM

"I don't see a serious threat here. "

"what harm have I done?"

*sigh*..because, Joe, it is not polite...it's not illegal, it's just not polite.In the final analysis, it comes down to whether you WANT to see the explanations given above by myself & Barry Finn & LaMarca.At this moment in time, is is not a 'serious' problem...just a nuisance for those who want the stated topic for this venue to be meaningful. I treat it like spraying for mosquitos-you can never get them all, but by complaining out loud and having an occasional thread like this, a few may think twice about the approptiateness of their requests and maybe it won't BECOME a serious problem!

No one can MAKE you agree-and I'll wager someone will even answer your request--and I'll survive. I take the long view, however, and I worry about 3 or 4 years from now, when the word gets out widely about this 'service' amoung the rock music groups and the singer-songwriter groups etc..(who have the 'folkies' seriously outnumbered!)I have seen this problem already in newsgroups on various topics;people simply refusing to keep the topic to the original concept and just posting whatever pleases them. If this thing was titled "The Eclectic Music Database and Bulletin-board",I would just shrug, but it DOES say 'Digitrad', and 'Purple People Eaters' is not 'trad'...it is out-dated silly pop music...cute, but not 'folk' or 'trad'. (I think I know most of it, but I will NOT post it here...just on principal)Someone else may..

So, Joe, it comes down to a matter of opinion about what "doesn't quite fit the definition of folk music" .......I choose to err on the conservative side

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 May 97 - 01:34 AM

I suppose it is all well and good to devote countless gigabytes here and in rec.music.folk about what is and what is not folk music and how crass it is to post non-folk material in a folk site. I mean, we have to keep our music pure, don't we?

I'm still not convinced. If I want the words to "Flying Purple People Eater" and post a lyrics request here, what harm have I done?

I don't see a serious threat here. There seems to be no indication at all that Digitrad and rec.music.folk are being subverted by punk rockers. So, why all the fuss? The people here are mostly people interested in folk music. If we have a question about a song that doesn't quite fit the definition of folk music, why should we have to go elsewhere? Most likely, there's somebody here with similar interests who can answer.

Er....if anybody does have the lyrics to "Purple People Eater," I'd sure like them. Also "My Boomerang Won't Come Back."

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Elsie- to Barry Finn & LaMarca etc..
Date: 05 May 97 - 09:58 PM

Wow! I really did not expect much agreement with my grumblings! Barry Finn says he will concentrate on 'folk material' and LaMarca says some of the things I wanted to say better than I could say it myself! If this has accomplished anything at all, it has at least gotten some very eloquent opinions in front of the group.I suspect this venue is just going to get better & better as a result of airing some of these issues....and I also want to thank Dick G. and Max and Susan of DT and everyone else that works on this for its very existence! Maybe I can mostly retire MY soapbox...........unless of course,..........

Peace to all--Elsie

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: LaMarca
Date: 05 May 97 - 06:02 PM

Oh, good; a soapbox debate! I'd like to compliment Barry Finn on his dense but lucid prose - you have presented a clear summation of the quandary in which I find myself a lot of the time.
I belong to a large social group of people on the East Coast who sing; sometimes for money, sometimes for friends, but mostly for the sheer love of singing. NONE of us are professional laborers; we're mostly suburban-dwelling, well educated, white collar professionals. However, the music that fascinates me and many of my friends are the traditional songs sung by people to accompany their work or for their own enjoyment when work was done. Many of us have had to learn these songs from books or records; we're not Cecil Sharp, John Lomax or Helen Creighton, who had the interest, ambition and opportunity to actually go out to the communities where the songs were sung and passed down in the oral tradition and collect them from the sources.
Having a database and discussion line where people can pass these hard-to-find songs around is one way to keep this treasure alive. I also like rock, opera, show tunes and other types of song, and sing them (well, some of them - I don't DO opera) in the shower or while commuting in my car (Public Transit doesn't permit you to sing aloud; it scares the other passengers). However, I can find SCADS of books, records, etc. containing these kinds of music in my local library, bookstore or record shop. I CAN"T find the lyrics to a Bahamian sea shanty quite so easily there; many of the source books or recordings are now out of print.
I would like to see this database and discussion line concentrate on the kinds of music that are hard to find elsewhere; I don't mean to be exclusionary, but I think referring people with pop music queries to already existing sites specializing in that type of music in a courteous fashion can help keep this site from being overwhelmed with too many threads to ignore or load in a reasonable time. I REALLY wish that Dick and Max could put together a little header for the thread page just saying this is a folk/trad oriented group, and perhaps giving a few technical tips on how to name threads, how to avoid multiple postings, etc., and one link to a separate page full of those links that people have discovered for other types of music, like roughstock/cowpie, Kenny Bellew's karaoke link page, etc.
The DT also needs to emphasize its disclaimer on its sources; A lot of the lyrics in DT are one person's interpretation of what he/she heard on a record, and may not be completely accurate. I think the source recording/book should be listed wherever possible, and whether the lyrics given are a transcription or taken from a written source, so that variations and errors don't get established as "gospel" by the users of DT. I've seen "Rise Up Singing" turning into the King James version of folk song, with people crippled by thinking the version in the book is the only "right" one; I'd hate to have the DT contribute to the same problem.
Similarly, when contributing lyrics to the thread list, folks should try to give their sources. If you think a song was written by a non-anonymous author, but you don't know the author's name, give your source so someone else can try to dig it up if they're so inclined. A lot of the folks who answer questions on here are really wonderful about giving the authors and sources of copyright material; it's a habit that should be STRONGLY encouraged!
We don't need to debate what folk music is or isn't, but try to make this site a place where the hard-to-find songs can fluorish, without being choked out by the music you can hear on the commercial radio station down the street. If you want the lyrics to the latest Nine Inch Nails song, you and 200,000 other people can find it in the nearest record store or on the umpteen fan web sites that crop up around any popular music group. If you want to find the lyrics to Charlie Poole's Frankie and Johnnie or the Gaelic version of The Mist Covered Mountains, this is one of your only hopes. Let's keep this site as uncluttered with redundancy as we can...

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Bob Landry
Date: 05 May 97 - 03:24 PM

I'm not a musical scholar. I'm not an artist. Hell I don't even call myself a musician. I'm a guy who derives enormous pleasure from playing my guitar and howling with my buddies (preferably over a few beers). Folk music, r&r, folk rock, electric, acoustic, oral, traditional, marginal, trivial - it's all great music. My main criteria is that it have melody and rhythm that I can manage. This thread reminds me of our Great Canadian landuage debate. (With apologies to Luba Goy) I don't care whether you're an anglophone, francophone, allophone or a telephone - music is life. Laissez le bon temps rouler.

Bob

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 May 97 - 08:35 PM

I have answered questions at this fourm that has had nothing to do with any type of folk music (50's & 60's rock & roll, childhood favorites ) and have felt quilty about it, and thought I'm just being helpful & I hope that I'm not infulencing in any way a change in the direction or intention that the DT'soriginal purpose was to take. I will not respond any more to requests unless they have some connection to folkmusic, Elsie, I apologize and agree with most of what youare saying, I'll also throw in my 2 cents. For over 30 yrs. I've been listening, singing, performing, writing, collecting and sharing this type of music in some form, in the early 60's I watched it boom and then continue it's cycles, as technology advanced, the music spread and took on new directions and forms while as a living tradition, by the 60's ironically it died, in all but a few isolated areas. The Manhaden fisheries ended in the 50's, prison reform came in the mid 60's, the last of the Tall Ships were rotting by now, work songs were no longer utilized, songs about work; farming, mining, factory, lumbering, unions and etc., did not need to be sung socially to help ease their burden, the labor force was changing, and I believe the common laborer was the majority of the folk society, be they baby sitters, cowboys, mothers looking after others they were the folk. So who sings folk songs today and who or what are they about, and if it gets around in other ways than orally then why is it Trad. or Cont. folk music and if a singer/songwriter, who never spent a moment at the task in which their singing about can get the listener to not only enjoy but to relate or feel or share or give insite into the subject of the song, then wouldn't this be as close as you get to the folk source without having to be a collector. My point to all this is that it's a fine line or thread, what is and isn't the real McCoy and in judging the merits of one song over another can do as much damage as the commerical side can when, for the sake of the dollar, it shoves garabge onto it's public. In the end it's a personal choice, with the outcome being the fate of this music. I'm not a doomsayer, but I've also seen venues where once great traditional and contempory music could be shared and heard (Boston & San Francisco among others), that now poeple only play and sing out of books (Rise Up Singing being one) and if it's different it's wrong and it's no fun to be around and it's another form of damage taking it's toll, knowingly on not alienating the good from the bad the old from the new the knowledgeable from the ignorant the trad from the contemp, can , in my opinion, erase folk music from the mind of what folk might be left. Again, it's time I broke my fingers for doing this."I'll Stick To Singing".

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From:
Date: 03 May 97 - 02:22 PM

Benjamin

I suppose I shouldn't say "empty", I came up with too much. There were quite a few Hits, and I waded through many of them. That's how I got here. I didn't find any site that had cords, etc. I tried that alt.music site, and haven't gotten any response. I don't let people do the work for me, I was just asking for help. It was 11:30 pm when I made my request, couldn't get to a music store at that point. I didn't think that asking for clarification of the lyrics was a problem. Jimminy crickets if I had known that a veritable uproar was going to start, I would have stayed off the internet that night. I agree with Les that enough is enough, just felt the need to defend myself, as I know how to do research, find primary sources, etc.

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Les Blank to Allan and others
Date: 02 May 97 - 11:08 PM

First to others:

Enough of this !! Let's just enjoy DT and be damned thankful that someone like Dick Greenhaus does what he does so well. Thanks Dick and Susan !!!

Second to Allan:

I never heard the story you related about "Darcy Farrow", but it is truly a "folk" tale !! Darcy Farrow was written by an old friend of mine(back in the early 60's), Steve Gillette and his long time cohort, Tom Campbell. Steve is still singing and writing and his latest is his best. He still does Darcy Farrow at all his shows, and he duets it with his beautiful wife, Cindy Mangsten.(See their home page for all their music. They were last here(Texas) in January and will be in Kerrvile during the Folk Festival in May. I do agree, however, that it could well have been a deserving dissertation. Darcy was the name of Steve's little sister !!

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Rodney Rawlings
Date: 02 May 97 - 10:33 PM

When I first came upon this site, it was not clear to me that it was a folk site. If it had been, I would have moved on, as I do not like that many folk records and do not sympathize with what may be called the "folk world-view." The word "Mudcat" meant nothing to me. I agree that despite borderline cases, there are distinctions that make it possible for a site to be "folk." However:

1. There are borderline cases like this one. 2. If there are thousands of sites that give the lyrics to this song, why not use Mudcat? It is one those thousands, isn't it? 3. Someone may not know what category a song falls into.

My suggestion, which I posted earlier, is to make it clearer at the top of the DISCUSSION page (not the top-level page) that the forum deals with folk music, but also to be not too strict about it. Above all, I think the "purist" viewpoint would be inappropriate here for the above reasons.

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Allan
Date: 02 May 97 - 09:54 PM

When I took a course in Folk Lore (back in '59) at UofPenna., we defined a "folk song" as one which had been passed along through the oral tradition. Thus, by definition NO ONE could write a folk song. (Good thing Peete Seeger And others never let that stop them!) In fact there is a story about "Darcy Farrow" which says that a student too lazy to go out and collect a folk song for his doctorate wrote the song and fooled his professor. SOOOOooooo obviously, the DEFINITION changes, dosen't it? And Les Blanks definition is just as good whoever's. AND there are no guns pointing at anyone's head forcing them to read a thread about a non folk song.

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Benjamin Holister
Date: 02 May 97 - 08:59 PM

I've been reading this discussion with interest as I am a trad Irish muso, and that allows some crossover to this genre. Till now I have kept out of participating but my other role is that of an information broker, so I'm a professional searcher. having read Susan's last entry I thought "Let's see" and ran a basic "california dreamin'" search through Infoseek just from their browser add on search tool, allowing only the most basic search. I hate to say Susan, but I hit about 800,000 and on the first page were sites with not only the lyrics but the chords as well. I suppose I see this a discussion forum primarily where we can also ask for song info. It's hard to believe that the song in question is not available as sheet music in a good music shop, either as a single item or in a collection. I suppose what I'm saying is, and especially to those who are in academic life and should have good research skills, that try other avenues first, don't just let others do the work. That's a little harsh but as it has been stated it is not hard to find the said material on the web and shouldn't be in other places IRL.

Anyway that's mo dha pingine (my two cents) worth, and I hope that your finals went well/go well and that you do the song justice. Folk or not, it's a song that has meant things to people and as such should be performed with heart so as to not destroy it's meaning for those people.

Slan go foill 's beannacht Dhe libh a chairde

Benjamin

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Susan
Date: 02 May 97 - 07:07 PM

Elsie-

I had run searches as "California Dreamin'" and come up empty. A search was how I got here. Guess I should have tried "Mamas and Papas" but since I was fairly sure they didn't write it under that name, I tried the title. And I tried variations, like spelling out "dreaming". Oh well :-)

And the only thing accompanying (sp) me for my final will be my sweetie's 12 string acoustic guitar and the (hopefully) soaring harmonies we have worked out.

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: belter
Date: 02 May 97 - 02:47 PM

I'd hate to think that in a couple senturies or malinium the songs of our time will no longer be songs, no matter how good they are, just because they are in an arcaic stile that no one does anymore. There are songs that are only remembered by scholars, some recreated from archialogical sources. Perhaps there was a time when those songs were the political satir that gave people a good laugh, or the song that our ancesters fell in love to, with out which we wouldn't exist. They may have been very important to some one a hundered or a thousand years ago so how can we say that they're not even songs.

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Bert Hansell
Date: 02 May 97 - 02:11 PM

If is only exists on paper I don't think it is even a song, let alone a folk song? ;-)

Bert.

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Tamara
Date: 02 May 97 - 11:58 AM

I've been out of the field for a while -- is there some terminology to distinguish between folk (even assuming Elsie's use of the word -- and I'd like to hear a little more detail on that, for instance, accoustic only? specific types of rhythms? You seem to have it worked out pretty firmly for yourself) songs that only exist on paper and folk songs that are actually still part of a tradition somewhere ?

Tamara

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 01 May 97 - 08:18 PM

Maybe Tamara is on to something with the shared campfire as a touchstone. What would people sing (have people sung) together around campfires, hearths, hootenannies, ships at sea, mudcat cafes, since 500,000 B.C? Suppose this site were a virtual campfire, and someone suggested singing Brahms Third Symphony! They wouldn't get very far -- but Brahms's Lullaby would make it. Shareable, singable, not necessarily by experts. This is why the tunefulness is so important. Maybe this helps explain why people are suspicious of electric stuff (unless you have a really long extension cord). It has to be shareable under basic circumstances, which a good electric original might be able to survive even with the superstructure eliminated. Dare I say like some of the Mamas and Papas? Raises a new topic: Who would you have around your ideal campfire (like Judy Chicago's Dinner Party of great women of history)?

Peter Timmerman

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Elsie
Date: 01 May 97 - 03:43 PM

To answer several of the questions in the last few posts - all of which sort of asked "why not just let all the songs people have fun with be folk songs and quit arguing"

When Digitrad was first put on line, there were already lyrics sites online.Why didn't we just contact them and append our list? Whe do various groups create newsgroups and Web site for their favorite kind of music? Because some kinds of music are DIFFERENT!!! They have different names, different kinds of sounds, different themes, etc.!I saw someone post an arguement in rec.music.folk on this same theme, to the effect "why don't we just have one big site labeled 'MUSIC'"?

This site, as far as I am able to determine, was CREATED in order to make FOLK music available.So, why, just because no one else seems to have come up with an 'interactive' format for their music, does this one have to answer all the questions? If ALL lyric questions are equally welcome here, what does the name mean? I waste a LOT of time opening queries and scrolling down lists of queries filled with stuff which are really pop, or rock, or C&W questions---and NO amount of "well, they are all done by 'folk'" platitudes will change this! Different catagories of music DO exist! I know the exact borders are hard to draw, and I am tolerant of 'borderline' stuff. But I shake my head in dismay when requests are made here which are CLEARLY rock, or pop oriented. I have seen a couple of our experts, who probably KNOW the answer, send the person to another site....I wish everyone would politely do that.Just a "sorry, we don't deal with that here-try this site" would be enough. Dick G. said awhile back that there are difficulties with having lists of links on this site, but several great starting points HAVE been posted from time to time. If you keep feeding these stray kitties, they will just come back here. If you try to be all things to all people, you will soon get more than you can handle. A word to the wise....

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Tamara
Date: 01 May 97 - 02:25 PM

Just to keep the pot stirred (as if it needs it :)

If Yellow Submarine and California Dreamin' and stuff like that are defined as "not folk", while, say, Child #57 is defined as "folk", then it seems to me that we are divorcing folk songs as a genre from the folk who are supposed to be defining the term. There's buckets of songs we've lost the music to, and old songs that nobody sings anymore (at least not without heavy editing) -- when was the last time you heard someone sing The Hunting of the Cheviot ? -- how can we call these "folk" if they're not part of a folk tradition? Is "folk" just an academic term now, with no real meaning ?

Folk songs -- well, "songs", since the definition is under debate -- are being spontaneously created today, in groups which have group singing as an aspect of their shared culture. For example, there are plenty of talented songwriters in the SCA, many of whom write in the old bardic tradition of spoofing political figures and recording the interesting events of the day.

A lot of these modern songs are dismissed as "filk" -- since they are often new words written to an older tune (no "real" folk songs have ever been written to an older tune ! :). Yet, plenty of these songs not only have a wide distribution (I ran across several I had supposed were East Coast local -- The Birthday Dirge and others -- in a group I joined in Edinburgh), but are also transmitted orally. I learned "Debauched and Depraved" and "Woad" around a campfire. As with anything orally transmitted, verses and words are lost, added or changed, and the original authors are lost (I didn't find out "Debauched and Depraved" -- or whatever it's really called -- came out of a fantasy novel until years later, and I still don't know who wrote "Woad").

What of songs learned at summer camp, or on scouting trips ? If "On Top of Old Smokey" counts, why not "California Dreamin'"? What about "folk" songs written in living memory, like "Barrett's Privateers" or "Bread and Roses" ?

Also, what of the contention that writing down a folk song essentially kills it, since that (supposedly) takes it out of the oral tradition ? Is every index in the DT a grave marker ?

Gah ! sorry, didn't realize I was rabbiting on like this... :)

Tamara

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: belter
Date: 01 May 97 - 02:06 PM

I don't want to say that we should throw the door wide open. But I'm just young enough that the mommas and the pappas seem like antient history to me, and besides they're fun to listen to. So I don't mind having them discused hear.

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 01 May 97 - 10:21 AM

Why is a song about a cat more of a folk song than a song from La Traviata? In the days when I had money and travelled and had girlfriends, I once had a gondolier in Venice who at the drop of money serenaded the girl I was with songs from Italian operas. As we rowed around, his colleagues happily joined in (for free). I don't remember "Sempre Libera" being part of the common repertoire, but "La Donna e Mobile" was. Was that not Italian folk singing (admittedly a bit touristy). I don't ask to be critical, I am interested. I was also jealous of the gondolier at the time, but that is another problem.

Peter Timmerman

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 May 97 - 01:13 AM

In their "More Together Again" concert CD, Arlo Guthrie and Pete Seeger did Elvis Presley's "I Can't Help Falling in Love With You." No, that isn't a folk song, either, but it sure is fun to sing; and it even works well with a group sing-along. Why do we need to be fussy here about whether a song is "folk" or not? If somebody likes it enough to want to sing it, that's good enough, I think.

Nonetheless, I think many of us would benefit from checking alt.music.lyrics every once in a while.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Elsie - (regretting her big mouth again)
Date: 01 May 97 - 12:24 AM

'And if folk music isn't the "music of the people", then what exactly is it?'

This IS true, but it is so broad that it means nothing! Just like "I ain't never heard a horse sing"

Folk music is music of certain kinds of people, in certain kinds of situations, with certain kinds of motives.....etc....and all those 'certains' are hard to define precisely. But that doesn't mean that if Pete Seeger decides to sing 'La Traviata', that it is now folk music. But if Leontyne Price writes a song about her mothers cat, it sure may BE folk music!

The problem is not that defining and limiting the scope of folk music is tricky--sure it is---the problem is that many people refuse to even try.

I do feel I should say to those like Susan who "didn't know where else to go" that I have some sympathy--but only 'some'! When I typed 'mamas and papas' into a search engine, I got 200 responses,and the very first one had the lyrics to 'California Dreamin' and 'Creeque alley' and two more songs:

(take a look!) http://anatomy-1.dote.hu/~szak/LYRICS/M/mamas.and.the.papas/mamas.html

at least now I know what 'creeque alley' is....it's cute--it's even a bit relevant--but it's still not folk!Will it ever be? Ask me in 50 years!

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Les Blank to Susan
Date: 30 Apr 97 - 11:05 PM

Don't fret !! You did NOT offend anyone. Elsie and I have had somewhat of a running dialog on what exactly constitutes:

1. Folk music 2. Freedom of expression 3. Eclecticism 4. Accepted forms of disagreement

I would think Woody Guthrie would be entirely acceptable as a "folk musician" as long as ther is NO electric guitar accompanying him!!

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Susan
Date: 30 Apr 97 - 10:49 PM

Sorry if I somehow offended with my original request, I didn't know where else to go. If it helps, I'm also going to do a Woody Guthrie song for my final. Or doesn't he fit the definition of folk music? And if folk music isn't the "music of the people", then what exactly is it?

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Les
Date: 30 Apr 97 - 06:29 PM

That's my girl !!!

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Provincial Elsie
Date: 30 Apr 97 - 04:51 PM

'You just need some nurturing and redefinition as to what "eclectic" means in the world of music'

No, Les-I am more eclectic than you might think! I might enjoy a James Taylor concert, and I might not, but if I did, I would not post my opinon to this venue. I have other musical tastes, but I go to other places to hear them, talk about them, post about them and ask questions about them. For example, I like some 30's & 40's big band music--and some opera! But I don't expect this forum to answer questions about those for me.

If I understand James Taylor, he is sort of 'pop-acoustic'? And 'The Mamas & the Papas' are sort of 60's pop/folk/rock, with 'pop & rock' being the real operative terms. That's why I open my mouth and object. (I really wish I could just shrug it all off like you do.)

and as for THIS "Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas) From: Brian Date: 04/30/97

Sidney Carter said that folk music was the music of the people. That just about covers anything at some time or another."

pooh!!

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From:
Date: 30 Apr 97 - 04:29 PM

It sounds as if the problem is defining who are the "folk" and not what is the music. (Not to get academic about it). The old German term "Volk" I guess meant traditional cultures, and since we don't have much of that anymore -- it gets turned into "people", everybody when they are responding as basic human beings. The passing of time as a test maybe could be seen as a substitute or an equivalent for that: lots of people have liked it over time in different situations, it gets worn down into a folk song. Maybe a really good song today just sounds like it will eventually get to be a folk song. I'm thinking of James Taylor and the rest of the usual suspects. (choose your own).

Peter Timmerman

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From:
Date: 30 Apr 97 - 03:18 PM

Some thoughts.

Trying to define folk music can be really frustrating. You can try to be inclusive with some unexpected results. Schooner Fare has a recording on which I believe one of the Brothers Romanoff says that Folk Songs are songs that people sing because they can't help themselves. This means I know a folk song with the lines "You deserve a break today so get up and get away......." That's pretty scary.

Jimmy Dale Gilmour performed at the Calgary Folk Club a while back. He noted that he had been called a writer of "Contemporary Folk" then he paused and said "Contemporary Folk ---- isn't that EVERYBODY"

You can also try to be detailed and list specifically what IS folk music. This can take a lot of effort. The Vancouver (BC) Folk Song Society has a whole page on their site taking a stab at it.

Maybe a definition of art I once heard could serve as a model

Folk Music : "I can't define it but I sure know it when I hear it."

Frank Phillips

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Brian
Date: 30 Apr 97 - 02:31 PM

Sidney Carter said that folk music was the music of the people. That just about covers anything at some time or another.

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 30 Apr 97 - 01:23 PM

As an outsider who stumbled over this great site, and at the risk of re-opening wounds or endlessly rehashing a debate you have been having amongst yourselves, I am intrigued by the discussion. I have heard bits of it before in various venues, but never fully articulated. Is there a point at which something can go over to being traditional folk music, even though it was pop music. When I have done folk events with children in recent years, most of them have no idea that "Yellow Submarine" was written by anyone -- it is just there. And people like Leadbelly seemed to sing anything and everything that was around. I have a familar book to many people -- Rise Up Singing -- which has all kinds of songs that seem to have become (or want to become part of the common culture). There is an introduction by Pete Seeger -- is that enough to get them into the canon? I assume that the notion that untouched peoples are going to spontaneously create folk songs is pretty dead -- so where are the new "old" ones to come from? Or does it all stop on the day Bob Dylan went electric? I would have thought that you could call "California Dreaming" a "folk song on probation". It looks as if eventually people will forget who wrote it (the ultimate accolade?), more or less in spite of the music machine. As I said, I don't mean to step into a swamp. Just interested. Yours, Peter

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Les Blank
Date: 30 Apr 97 - 01:03 PM

Ah Elsie !! Somehow I knew it would be you! Such fire of prose ! Such verve of Capitalization !! I've missed you !! You know, I'd be willing to bet that we could sit in adjacent seats at a James Taylor concert or at a Doc Watson get-together and appreciate both equally. You just need some nurturing and redefinition as to what "eclectic" means in the world of music. Honestly, this forum wouldn't be the same without you and I, for one, will defend your right to choice, to the death. Narrow minded ?? Never !! Just a bit provincial, I suspect. Remember, we are the World !!

Les

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Bert Hansell.
Date: 30 Apr 97 - 11:30 AM

Elsie,

'we wont be mad at you for expressing your opinion.'---right

That's right
To tell you the truth, in many ways, I agree with your opinion. In fact I belong to a local folk club and express that opinion when they have 'folk' concerts that really belong in the 'singer/songwriter' world. But then I -PAY- to belong to that club. I also get even with them, from time to time, by sneaking in one of my own songs.
So keep singing the songs that YOU like.

Bert.

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: yes, it's that silly,narrow-minded twit, Elsie
Date: 30 Apr 97 - 10:49 AM

'So cheer up guy (or gal)' ---no

'And let us know who you are'---no

'we wont be mad at you for expressing your opinion.'---right

'Lighten Up !!'---no

'Live and let live !!'---no

'And I'll post Creeque Alley if you fool with me !!'---who? (can't stop you! that won't make you 'right')

All I will do is try to bite my tongue MOST of the time! I dont want to have a constant argument going, I only want some awareness in the group that there is a real issue here!

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Les Blank
Date: 30 Apr 97 - 10:02 AM

I have a strong feeling that we have once again awakened (and offended) UNNAMED's sense of traditional "folk" purity -- it's happened once or twice before !! With a loving and tolerant heart, I offer the same advice I offered previously -- Lighten Up !! Live and let live !! And I'll post Creeque Alley if you fool with me !!

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Bert Hansell
Date: 30 Apr 97 - 09:05 AM

Well one of the things I like about this site is the wide variety of songs that we talk about. Although they don't all fit MY definition of folk music, I read them all. Many times I have been pleasantly surprised when a thread branches out and leads into a real folk song that I can add to my collection. So cheer up guy (or gal) it's all good fun.
And let us know who you are, we wont be mad at you for expressing your opinion.

Bert.

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From:
Date: 29 Apr 97 - 08:45 PM

this is NOT appropriate for this group...it is NOT -it is NOT- it is NOT!!! I don't care who starts what discussion all over again--!! THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO POST THAT REQUEST!!! Sorry, folks- I know it's not up to me, but NOBODY can justify calling 'The Mamas & Papas' folk music or anything close to folk music! I cant stop them from doing it, and they cant stop my complaining about it!

Do I feel better for my outburst? No,not really-it will do me no good! But I AM right!

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Susan
Date: 29 Apr 97 - 06:41 PM

Thanks, Brian!

Subject: Lyr Add: CALIFORNIA DREAMIN' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Brian
Date: 28 Apr 97 - 02:52 PM

All the leaves are brown and the sky is gray
I've been for a walk on a winter's day.

(First verse) I'd be safe and warm if I was in LA
California dreamin' on such a winter's day.
Stopped into a church I passed along the way
Oh I got down on my knees and I pretend to pray
You know the preacher likes the cold
He knows I'm gonna stay
California dreamin' on such a winters day.

(Second verse) If I didn't tell her
I could leave today
California dreamin' etc.

I got these from "101 Folk Songs for Buskers" but they are not always totally reliable.
I doubt if your professor will remember the words - I lived through that era and I can't remember anything about it - good times though.
Good luck.

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From: Susan
Date: 27 Apr 97 - 03:48 PM

Thanks, I'll try it!!

Subject: RE: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From:
Date: 26 Apr 97 - 05:51 PM

go to: http://www.dejanews.com and search for [alt.music.lyrics | dreamin']

set the AGE switch to OLD....

Subject: lyrics-California Dreamin' (Mamas & Papas)
From:
Date: 26 Apr 97 - 12:17 PM

If anyone can provide me with the lyrics to the Mamas & the Papas song California Dreamin' I would appreciate it. I can remmeber most of it, but I think I have the order messed up. Here's what I have:

All the leaves are brown And the sky is grey I'd be safe and warm If I was in L.A.

Chorus:

California Dreamin' I've got you winters day California Dreamin' I've got you winters day

Stopped into a church I passed along the way Well I got down on my knees And I began to pray If I didn't tell her I could leave today

Repeat chorus, then fade...

I am going to sing this song (and a couple others) instead of taking a final exam in my Calif History class and I have a feeling the Profesor lived through this era and would probably know if I blew it by getting the words in the wrong order. Any help would be appreciated!