BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:09 PM

When there is no news, gossip and speculation fills the space.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 03:28 PM

Just be careful what you wish for Jim.   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 03:29 PM

Jim, you said "the implications reach far beyond the events and those directly affected."

If he acted alone, why are the implications greater than for attacks by lone Jihadists?
If he did have support from some group, why are the implications greater than for attacks by Jihadists supported by Islamic terror groups?

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:41 PM

"If he acted alone,"
As your own examples have made clear, whether he acted alone or not is so far a matter of opinion, and couldn't be anything else given the short time since the incident took place. I have no idea whether he had help within Norway and have no opinion on the matter.
I have pointed out that he has claimed to have been in touch with groups outside Norway, including Paul Ray, ex-English Defence League and The Knights Templars, and that his statement has been confirmed by Ray, who has been questioned by the British police - presumably because they believe it to be possible.
Perhaps today's Daily Telegraph might help understand why the "implications are greater than for attacks by lone Jihadists?".
Jim Carroll

Norway attacks: Is the man who inspired Breivik a Briton?
After killer Anders Breivik claimed that he had a mentor in Britain, fears are growing that terrorism from far-Right extremists is becoming a real threat here.
By Gordon Rayner and Matthew Holehouse
7:30AM BST 30 Jul 2011
Could it happen here? From the moment it became clear that the gunman who carried out the world's worst mass shooting was a white supremacist, the question facing every political leader in the West was whether they had been blind to the threat of terrorism from the far Right.
Anders Behring Breivik may be "insane", as his lawyer put it, but he is certainly not alone in his paranoid hatred of multiculturalism, nor is he the first extremist to believe that murdering his countrymen would make him, in his own words, "a hero".
David Copeland, let's not forget, murdered three people and injured 129 when he detonated three nail bombs in London in 1999 during a 13-day campaign targeting the black, Bangladeshi and gay communities. Since then a stream of British fascists has been convicted of plotting similar bomb attacks they believed would trigger a race war aimed primarily at the spread of Islam.
So it should have come as no surprise, perhaps, that Breivik was in regular contact with supporters of the English Defence League (EDL), the latest far-Right group to crystallise around a hard core of anti-Islamification extremists. The EDL is mentioned 29 times in Breivik's manifesto. He claimed to have 600 EDL supporters among his Facebook friends. Almost inevitably, London was the city where he claimed to have embarked on his "crusade" after joining a secret society of anti-Islamic "martyrs".
His description of the inaugural meeting of the "Knights Templar", originally a medieval Christian order that is now a symbol for far-Right extremists, appears to have been written by someone who has swallowed a Dan Brown novel: there are rituals involving skulls, candles and signatures in blood; ancient noms de guerre (Breivik's was Sigurd the Crusader) and a Masonic hierarchy for members."

PS
Ake:
"Just be careful what you wish for Jim."
Sorry - don't follow you - threat - promise - what?
I do understand that your responses so far are remarkably similar to those of the EDL - surprise-surprise!!

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,English Martyr
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 05:26 PM

I never cease to be amazed by the sophistry and dissembling whih Keith applies - and this is NOT a personal attack.

One of the most ridiculous post I have read refers to the fact that he Keith "believes the weather forecast " .....and so "does not have an opinion of (his) own" as weather forecasters are experts and so we should believe what these experts say..... Oh dear, oh dear!

As to why there is a need to (seek to) divert this particular thread into a discussion of "islamist jihadists" as Keith appears to want to, well I can only guess.

The fact remains that the Oslo crimes need to be treated on their own, the relationship of the perpetrator to far-right European fellow travellers is a legitimate subject for consideration.

Seeking to suck in(to this topic) Islamic jihadist associations is suspect and points, once more, to a decidedly political agenda on the part of Mr Keith of A.

"I believe the weather forecasters. I have no opinion of my own".

Quite.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 05:41 PM

EM,
"The fact remains that the Oslo crimes need to be treated on their own, the relationship of the perpetrator to far-right European fellow travellers is a legitimate subject for consideration."
I agree.

"Seeking to suck in(to this topic) Islamic jihadist associations is suspect and points, once more, to a decidedly political agenda on the part of Mr Keith of A. "
I think it reasonable to make comparisons.
Many commentators on the day described this attack as having the "hall marks" of Islamic terror, and Breivik consciously aped their terminology.
As Jim says, there is a cause for concern that there may be more attacks by the Far Right.
This was not the first after all.

I do tend to assume that tomorrow's weather will be as forecast.
That does not make it my opinion.
I have neither the knowledge, data or training to provide weather forecasts.
Is that an unusual position?

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:31 PM

I'll let it go this time, English Martyr. You say it's not a personal attack, but you coulda fooled me. Please address issues, not persons. If you can't do that, I'll have to start deleting your messages.

Seems to me that if you want to hide behind anonymity and not register with a real name, then fairness dictates that you should have no right to address other posters by name. Anonymous near-insults just aren't welcome here.

-Joe Offer, moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 04:10 PM

Sorry Joe,
I can't see too much of a personal attack in English Martyr's posting.
"Personal attack" has now become a knee-jerk defence for arguments Keith is unble to answer, making it extremely difficult to elicit reasonable and honest responses from him.
Give us a break - I don't believe the weather forcast too often - do you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 08:34 PM

Jim...thats a laugh, your own posts are full of personal insults and attacks....In fact you are the worst offender on this forum, with perhaps the exception of Lox, who is completely beyond the pale.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:01 AM

Thanks Joe.
Jim, I did not bother to point out the personal attack, and I answered all the points.
You do not like the weather analogy?
OK.
A doctor tells me I have cancer.
I believe him, but it is his opinion not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:50 AM

Sorry to take up this thread with nonsense of this sort, but this will be my last comment on it here.
Whether or not I am "the worst offender...." may or may not be the case; on a subject as serious as racism I expect there to be strong - often over-the-top discussion, especially when racist statements are made in the course of that discussion - I am prepared to give and take as much as people feel the subject merits and am happy to accept as much stick as I give.
All of which is beside the point here.
I think, and said so, that Joe over-reacted to what I believe was a fairly subdued offering by a guest - I certainly have made my opinion of Keith's beliefs clear in far stronger terms.
I don't know if you have been told you have cancer Keith, or if you were using it as an analogy; if it is true, you have my deepest sympathy, but it in no way alters my opinion of your ideas.
Nothing more on this from me here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 05:16 AM

Just an analogy Jim, thanks all the same.
Have we discussed racism?
Certainly no member has expressed racist views.
Your opinion of my beliefs is flawed because you are totally wrong about my beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 01:28 PM

Just a casual observation but the contribution of anyone, considering the subject of this thread, who chose to join it under the name of "GUEST English Martyr" was always going to be highly suspect.

1: "As to why there is a need to (seek to) divert this particular thread into a discussion of "islamist jihadists" as Keith appears to want to, well I can only guess."

2: "Seeking to suck in(to this topic) Islamic jihadist associations is suspect and points, once more, to a decidedly political agenda on the part of Mr Keith of A."

Nothing whatsoever to do "as Keith appears to want to be". Please correct if I am wrong here but an Islamist group very early on in the passage of events did attempt, rather pathetically, to claim responsibility for the bomb in Oslo. On the other hand NO right wing extremist group has sought to claim responsibility at all.

That being the case, and IT IS THE CASE, if publicity is the sole objective in raising their concerns with regard to immigration, why have there been no claims from the racists who wish to bring this topic to the fore and see an end to immigration from muslim countries? One simple, rational, explanation could be that Breivik DID ACT ALONE.

Personally I will wait and see what such investigations as are ongoing turn up. My gut feeling is that they will conclude that he did act alone and that there is no link to any "movement", its very seldom on this forum that I whole-heartedly agree with MGOH, but Kevin is right in what he stated earlier - this guy is a fantasist.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:43 PM

"Please correct if I am wrong "
OK - you're wrong:
Paul Ray of The Knights Templars and ex member of the English Defence League has not only claimed that he was in touch with Breitvik, but also said he (Ray) provided the inspiration for the bombing - can't get any closer to a claim of responsibility than that.
On Brit who has been in contact with Breitvik via a psuedo-military chat site on the Net, in one memorable quote, says "he seemed like a nice bloke.
"why have there been no claims from the racists who wish to bring this topic to the fore and see an end to immigration from muslim countries?"
"Leader of the league, Tommy Robinson condemns the killings "but he does not want to decry the beliefs that led to Breivik's actions.... "the slaughter might wake Europeans up"
That's a show of solidarity if anything is - it's even been echoed on this thread.
The authorities are taking these contacts seriously enough to have shown disquiet as to whether Breitvik's call to action has been heeded - I'd rather see them err on the side of caution than allow are home-grown nutters have another go - wouldn't you?
"this guy is a fantasist"
Aren't most racists who belive their national origins, culture, complexion, religion, whatever makes them superior to other races "fanaticists" to one degree or another?
"....name of "GUEST English Martyr"
Might have agreed with you if I didn't find many of the Mudcat adopted names odd - to say the least.
Terribus has always struck me as being somewhat pretentiouly militaristic... but there you go; it takea all kinds...
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:11 PM

It would be truly surprising if he had not been "in touch" with like minded fanatics.
All fanatics of all their multitudinous, varied and strange beliefs find soul-mates via the internet.
Also folkies.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:30 PM

In the reports I have found, Ray only thinks that his blog may have inspired Breivik.
How much credence do you give to this twat in armour Jim?
He claims to have rejected Breiviks approaches and is not claiming to have knowingly inspired anything.

What difference does it make if he was or was not inspired by all the nuts on the net?

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:36 PM

"in touch" with like minded fanatics."
Like I said, the authorities aren't taking any chances; why encourage thm to do otherwise; especially as one racist fanatic has just accounted for rather a lot of young people in the name of anti-immigration - a cause not a million miles away from some people.
I was doing electrical work in the pub in Dean Street, Soho, a few weeks before the nail-bomber made his feelings known about homosexuals, so please don't say "it can't happen here" - it can and has.
I wonder why some people are so keen to quote "experts" on the one hand, and try to tell them how to do their job when it goes against the grain of your own particular philosophies - funny that!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:48 PM

Claiming responsibility for an atrocity - truly or falsely - makes tactical sense for an organisation in some circumstances, but not always. It is a way of asserting power - but it comes at a cost.

Circumstances alter cases. Especially where there is widespread abhorrence of what has been done, it can make better sense to avoid any claim of responsibility, but to encourage the idea that the culprit is a lone individual, driven to take extreme action by social and political faults in society - with the implication that similar things can be expected to happen again.

It appears to have been common practice in the Northern Ireland for responsibility for particular atrocities to be laid off to some non-existent grouplet, or just left floating without any claim.

The bottom line here is, we just don't know. The failure of organisations who share Breivik's views to claim responsibility tells us nothing whatsoever. As would be the case equally if there were such claims.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 05:10 PM

"I wonder why some people are so keen to quote "experts" on the one hand (sounds like me Jim), and try to tell them how to do their job when it goes against the grain of your own particular philosophies "

No one here is trying to tell anyone how to do their job Jim.
They do not read our forum anyway!
And what do you mean " against the grain of your own particular philosophies "
What philosophy have you made up for me now?

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 06:09 PM

Ah so Jim, the short version of that is that there have been no claims of responsibility from any right-wing group - None at all.

I mean really, as an "authority" Paul Ray of "The Knights Templars"!!! "Jesus-H-Come-Dancing-Christ" they cannot even get the name of their supposed historic roots right

And talking about getting things right - Who is "Terribus" when he or she is at home?

The "nail bomber" who made his feelings known against homosexuals targeted who?

Rhetorical question he struck in accordance with his own prejudices against that specific community in a very localised way.

Breivik made his feelings known against unrestricted immigration and targeted who?

Rhetorical question he struck at the political party he held responsible for allowing and/or encouraging(according to his perception) immigration to Norway, he did not strike against the immigrant communities themselves - He could have done but specifically did not.

The bottom line Kevin is that if Breivik had any help or assistance whatsoever, the Norwegian authorities will find that out, as I have said before my guess is that they will find nothing of any substance at all, had he truly been acting in concert with others - he would have succeeded in hitting his main target - he failed because he was delayed by traffic - he failed because he was acting alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 02:31 AM

Jim, we all want to know what led to this crime.
We can be sure that it will be investigated and exposed.
The evidence so far is that he had no accomplices.
It seems to be very important to you to believe that he did.
Why Jim?
You also are trying to suppress discussion of the absence of conspirators.
You say because it might stop the police doing their job, but you can not possibly really believe that.

Do you want there to be a conspiracy because that suits your philosophy?
Are you trying to exploit these killings for that?

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 04:19 AM

"It seems to be very important to you to believe that he did."
Where have I ever said that and what possible "exploitation" can there be in not taking chances? I might just as well suggest that you are you trying to draw the attention away from the fact that there are racist organisations in Britain and elsewhere that peddle race hatred in order than they can get on with their scheming unmolested.
Don't you dare accuse me of exploiting this situation - it wasn't me who made the link between Brietvik's actions and Muslims.
Nor was it me who suggested that he might have a reason to complain and that the relevant governments should start listening to those complaints - ".....driven over the edge by the policies of the Norwegian government" - a clear enough suggestion, to me at least, that the Norwegian authorities were partly to blame for this massacre.
I don't know one way or the other whether he had accomplices, neither do you, nor does anybody else, and it would be murderously irresponsible to rule out any possibility until we know the situation for certain.
These people are not 'politicos' who only organise themselves to win votes at the next election. They are inciters of hatred who work to draw attention to their particular twisted causes by whatever means possible, and attempt to incite people to act on those causes, whether it be by putting a cross next to their candidate's name at the next election, or by throwing bricks through the windows of your local Asian corner shop.
If the police think it worthwhile following up Ray's claims, and if, as the Daily Telegraph article suggests:
"...fears are growing that terrorism from far-Right extremists is becoming a real threat here", what on earth's your problem in supporting their doing so - are you trying to make political capital of the situation by suggesting that they are not doing their job properly?
I have nowhere suggested that taking a racist threat seriously might "stop the police doing their job", or if I have, where?
You, on the other hand, are suggesting that taking seriously Breitvik's "wake-up" call is a waste of time and resouces - why?
"Who is "Terribus""
He's the miss-spelling of some twerp who seems to want to identify himself with a feudalistic Scots war-cry.... any typo in a storm - what!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Non-opinionated Weatherman
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 05:53 AM

Right on!

Er, what way IS the wind blowing?

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 06:16 AM

A simple question for you Jim Lad, "Who is Brietvik and what were his actions?"

Pssst - "Teribus" is actually the title of a song.

"They are inciters of hatred who work to draw attention to their particular twisted causes by whatever means possible, and attempt to incite people to act on those causes, whether it be by putting a cross next to their candidate's name at the next election, or by planting bombs in shopping centres so as to inflict greatest number of deaths and casualties amongst the innocent"

Now who on earth does that bring to mind? What was the tally in the end 3,500 odd dead and over 36,000 maimed and injured. Oh yes there are plenty of organisations that warrant thorough investigation and the fullest prosecution by the authorities I couldn't agree more. The sooner they get on with it the better, but when it comes to prioritising in line with the degree of threat and capability that each pose, I know the ones that would come top of my list.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 07:49 AM

"Psst Teribus" is actually the title of a song."
Psst - it was also a war-cry at the battle of Flodden - thought everybody knew that.
Could also be a tour bus taking visitors to a chocolate factory, of course!
"Who is Brietvik and what were his actions?"
He is a mass murdered who slaughtered young people to bring attention to, and hoped to get support for his racist cause; certainly succeeded with the former, seems to have gathered a few supporters for the latter - here and elsewhere.
"What was the tally...."
When the typos fail to hide the fact that someone has run out of petrol wth his arguments, try a thread-drift; who knows, it might work.
here are plenty of actions worthy of examinaion - Catholics killing Protestants, Protestants killing Catholics, troops massacring unarmed demonstrators, nations using chemical weapons on civilians, internment without trial, torture (aka "special rendition")..... the list is endless.
So unless you want to start a thread coveing them all, I suggest you stick to the topic in hand, which is a massacre carried out as "a wakeup call" against immigration and multiculturalism, and how it should be investigated and dealth with - wake up boy - you'll never pass exams while you're half asleep!
"I know the ones that would come top of my list."
So do we - after all, why should you bother your arse about a murderous fascist?
Now tell me again - why should we forget that there might be bunches of brain-deads out there who might heed Brietvik's wake-up call, and call off the investigation??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 08:37 AM

"if Breivik had any help or assistance whatsoever, the Norwegian authorities will find that out..." Let us hope so. But given the wide range of possibilities that "any help or assistance" covers there is no guarantee that they will be able to achieve that.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 09:46 AM

War-cry at the Battle of Flodden was it? Thought the Salvation Army came along much later than that.

Whose war-cry at the Battle of Flodden Jim Lad? The Scots Army? Somehow strongly doubt that. I can find no mention of it not even in Niall Barr's new book on the battle, or in any of the eye-witness accounts of the battle.

1: "Who is Brietvik and what were his actions?"

He is a mass murdered who slaughtered young people to bring attention to, and hoped to get support for his racist cause; - The answer to the question as stated by Jim Carroll

2: "Now tell me again - why should we forget that there might be bunches of brain-deads out there who might heed Brietvik's wake-up call, and call off the investigation??" - Jim Carroll

As far as I am aware no-one named Brietvik has even be accused of murdering anyone - FACT. Neither you nor anyone else for that matter can have any idea at all regarding what "bunch of brain-deads", regardless of political persuasion, might be influenced by this fictional character (Brietvik) you have latched onto (I am sure that there may very well be a Mr. Brietvik somewhere, who would not be at all pleased in you dragging his name into this). All of which sort of indicates the faux-outrage and concern penned by Carroll. It tends to rob your argument of a great deal of credibility if you cannot even be bothered to get the name of the man in custody for the bombing and the shootings right. The man who oddly enough has not sought to deny his crimes, the only thing he denies is "criminal responsibility" for them.

As far as I can determine you and you alone are the only person on this thread attempting to give this man Breivik (Note spelling) and "his cause" any oxygen. As far as I can determine the Norwegians are handling all this a damn sight better than you appear to be doing - they are just letting the police get on with the job.

Perhaps you can show me where I have advocated that all investigations related to the terrible crimes perpetrated in Oslo and Utøya should be dropped - Or is that just you making up shit again - as you normally do.

"But given the wide range of possibilities that "any help or assistance" covers there is no guarantee that they will be able to achieve that.- MGOH

Oh Kevin I think that everything connected with Breivik's life is now under a very powerful microscope and that it will be gone over with a fine tooth comb and Police Forces all over the world will co-operate to the fullest as and when required.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 09:49 AM

"if Breivik had any help or assistance whatsoever, the Norwegian authorities will find that out..."
The concern seems to be for what might happen outside Norway; whether there are likely to be any copycat incidents.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 05:44 PM

"Terribus has always struck me as being somewhat pretentiouly militaristic... but there you go; it takea all kinds."

Nothing pretentious about him. He makes more sense than many, and imo, that includes the person who made the above quoted remark about him.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:23 AM

Prosecutor Christian Hatlo says that after 40 hours of questioning police are fairly certain Anders Behring Breivik acted alone and that he appears to be telling the truth.

Hatlo told the AP on Wednesday that police have been able to verify much of what Breivik told them about the attacks and that they have not discovered "any direct lie, yet."

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:52 AM

[Teribus]
Whose war-cry at the Battle of Flodden Jim Lad? The Scots Army? Somehow strongly doubt that. I can find no mention of it not even in Niall Barr's new book on the battle, or in any of the eye-witness accounts of the battle.

The tradition is that it was the warcry of the men of Hawick, used at that battle after centuries of use in more local fights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teribus_ye_teri_odin

Hawick Common Riding

I play the tune for those words (or rather the pipe march version of it) about once a week on average. It's one of the best known tunes in Scottish tradition and a fair proportion of people involved in Scottish trad know the backstory. (It would never occurred to me that anybody on a folk music forum using it as a handle would not have intended to allude to all of this).

Where does the Salvation Army come into it?

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:59 AM

I don't know if I am agreeing with 999, but I always found Teribus to be straight forwardly militaristic.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 12:20 PM

War Cry. Salvation Army newspaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 01:00 PM

"Teribus ye teri odin or teribus an teriodin ([ˈtirɪbəs ən ˈtiri ˈodɪn]) is popularly believed to have been the war cry of the men of Hawick at the Battle of Flodden Field,[1]"
You do have a thing about typos - don't you - try arguments, they usually have more effect - stupid boy!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 01:42 PM

Ahh - Popularly Believed To Be - so that makes it definite then??

"References to the "war cry" teribus an teriodin do not appear much before the early 19th century." - conveniently omitted from same wiki article quoted by Jim Lad - Flodden occured when in the early 19th Century Jim? I though Flodden took place on 9th September, 1513 - No wonder the Scots lost Jim they shouted their war-cry 300 years too late so nobody heard it.

The evidence looks pretty shaky as an actual war-cry, "Teribus" is however well known and recorded as being the title of a song. Now who said what was what again? How's that for an argument - Jim Lad?

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:07 PM

The song "Teribus" is the oldest of the Hawick songs - written by James Hogg (The Ettrick Shepherd) in 1819 - His original title for it was "The Colour" but it became universally known and accepted by the shorter title "Teribus" (First word of the chorus)

The tune dates back to the 16th Century and is known as "The Eternal Air".

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:55 PM

Take your word for it - never read it through; doesn't make it any less pretentiously militaristic - so I suggest before you take a pop at others, "look to thyself" - which was my only reason for referring to it in the first place.
All that aside - perhaps you'd like to explain why the pursuing of the combtants (I assume you refer to both republican and loyalist terrorism) of a long-dead conflict, and inflicting damage an on-going peace process, takes precedence over the following up of a recent massacre aimed at inciting race hatred and further killing.
In spite of your claims to the contrary, a likely link has been established between two English fascist organisations and the killer - shouldn't you get your priorities right Torpiodus lad?
Jim Carrol

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:00 PM

The point is that folklore has labelled that song as a war cry for a VERY long time; Hogg adapted something well known in his day. He didn't make the folk beliefs about its significance up. Everybody in southern Scotland then thought it had militaristic connotations, and almost everybody today who knows the song at all still thinks that.

It looks like you picked your handle without having much of a clue what it signified.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:13 PM

Jack n' Jim......you've been holed below the waterline, please try to sink gracefully! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:37 PM

"It looks like you picked your handle without having much of a clue what it signified." - Jack Campin

Just goes to show then Jack that what things "look like" and what things "actually are" can be as different as chalk from cheese, especially when, as the author of the sentence quoted above, you know the square root of sod all about me or what you are talking about.

By the bye - The "war-cry" if it ever was one at Flodden or anywhere else is "Teribus Ye Teri Odin"

My handle is "Teribus" which is the title of a song, and that I originally pointed out to Jim Lad, so "Teribus" apart from being the title of a border song that tells an old story - signifies nothing.

Jim is not strong on detail, history, or accuracy, it would appear that neither are you.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 02:41 AM

"please try to sink gracefully..."
Typos and other diversions seem to have provided a convenient enough smokescreen from the subject for the appeasers to slip out of the back door, it would appear.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 03:11 AM

Appeasers?
I thought I had been following this thread closely, but I missed those.
What did they say Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 07:03 AM

Maybe Jim is referring to something that "Mr. Brietvik" may or may not have whispered in his ear.

Mr.Brietvik being one of those "Typos and other diversions" introduced as "a convenient enough smokescreen" to mask Jim's total ignorance of "the subject" under discussion. You Keith should know better than anyone else how much Jim just likes to "make stuff up" and then harp on about it as though it were fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 07:57 AM

"What did they say Jim? "
One of them said the killer had a a valid reason to be disgruntled - it was all down t Government policy and immigration - you've had the quote The other said that as we all know that there is no connection with any other organisation, concentration should be switched elsewhere - Ireland maybe?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 09:00 AM

It is OK to be disgruntled Jim.
No-one is justified in expressing that in criminality, never mind mass murder of innocents!
And no-one has said that they are.

"The other said that as we all know that there is no connection with any other organisation,"

No one said that Jim.

" concentration should be switched elsewhere "

No-one said that either.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 09:05 AM

Ah more made up stuff Jim?

These "links" you mention are not new revelations but rather old news. Ah a meeting between eight people, nine years ago, of which there has been no repetition.

Friends on Facebook!!! - As many on this forum know - Not the most secure environment to conduct the workings of a secret society eh??

"Paul Ray of The Knights Templars (LOL!!!) and ex member of the English Defence League has not only claimed that he was in touch with Breitvik, but also said he (Ray) provided the inspiration for the bombing - can't get any closer to a claim of responsibility than that." - Jim Carroll

Not quite what the man (Paul Ray) says here in the Independent:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/video-british-blogger-denies-breivik-links-2327524.html

"One of them said the killer had a a valid reason to be disgruntled" - Jim Carroll

Who? Where? When?

"The other said that as we all know that there is no connection with any other organisation, concentration should be switched elsewhere - Ireland maybe?" - Jim Carroll

Who? Where? When?

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 09:29 AM

Both f these statements attempt to implicate the Norwegian Government's policy in these killings.
Tell me how they don't
Your statements continue to claim that he has notbeen in touch wit outside organisations - evidence strongly sugest that he has.
Show me that this is not he case.
"Who? Where? When?"
"Now who on earth does that bring to mind? What was the tally in the end 3,500 odd dead and over 36,000 maimed and injured. Oh yes there are plenty of organisations that warrant thorough investigation and the fullest prosecution by the authorities I couldn't agree more. The sooner they get on with it the better, but when it comes to prioritising in line with the degree of threat and capability that each pose, I know the ones that would come top of my list. "
As I said - appeasment
Jim Carroll

"Secondly he appears to be an extreme Nationalist who has been driven over the edge by the policies of the Norwegian govt.
(Please dont try to mis-represent that statement)"
"This guy is obviously mad, and his actions inexcusible, but it seems clear that his rage was directed towards governments which operate an "open door" policy to immigration.
Most Western governments are presently being forced to start closing the door as the idiocy of this policy becomes apparent."

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 10:16 AM

If that last post of yours was directed in reply to my questions could you possibly write it in English that is in some way comprehensible?

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 11:42 AM

"Your statements continue to claim that he has notbeen in touch wit outside organisations"
Don't be silly Jim.
Of course he has.
All fanatics spend hours on the net "in touch" with all the other fanatics.
It would be very surprising if this one were different.
(I have explained this to you twice before Jim.)

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 11:51 AM

300. The other one I wanted got closed at 299.