BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:19 PM

I think Teribus has it about right. To start with, the guy must have been seriously deranged to perpetrate such an atrocity.

Secondly he appears to be an extreme Nationalist who has been driven over the edge by the policies of the Norwegian govt.
(Please dont try to mis-represent that statement)

As western economies worsen and living standards, pension rights, public services come under further attack,expect to see a backlash against the policies pursued by goverments in Western Europe over the last couple of decades.

Perhaps we may yet see Mr Powells "rivers of blood".....I certainly hope not, but action needs to be taken now to reverse some of the policies which have created the "time bomb"

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:34 PM

"I certainly hope not, but action needs to be taken now to reverse some of the policies which have created the "time bomb"
Not a lot of room to "mis-represent this statement" - do what the killer wants or somebody else will carry out another massacre - aka submitting to the demands of a fascist madman.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:51 PM

...and I asked well, who bombs Americans?

Obviously, and primarily, other Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:04 PM

"I asked well, who bombs Americans?"

Strange how it appears that Timothy McVeigh seems to have drifted out of the consciousness of Mrrzy - and many others.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:06 PM

Some info on Norway's gun laws:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/24/norway-strict-gun-laws-circumvented

One of the early reports yesterdaystated that at least two of thenguns used in the massacre were legally registered to the killer.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:19 PM

As I have said, you can obtain any weapon you want IF you are willing to pay the price (and I'm not just talking about money). Britain has strict gun laws, and yet there is gun violence, with many of the arms apparently coming in from former Soviet Bloc countries. Russia and China, Canada, Australia, Germany, South Korea....

Please do not consider this to be anything but a simple statement of fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:34 PM

"You are attempting to use the murder of 90odd people by a fundamentalist Christian to implicate Muslims."

Implicate Muslims?
I did no such thing.
A groundless attack for personal reasons.
You may not value your Mudcat membership, but I do.

Suicide missions are not unique to Islamic terror.
They were used for instance by the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka.
The phrase "martyrdom operation" is part of the Islamists vocabulary that he, for his own twisted reasons, has consciously copied.

This act of terror was perpetrated by a lone psychopath.
I am just trying to get my head around what drives him.

I read that 21 years is the maximum tariff under Nowegian law.
Less than 3 months for each murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:49 PM

Strange how it appears that Timothy McVeigh seems to have drifted out of the consciousness of Mrrzy - and many others.

If it were only McVeigh, that would be one thing. But its not.

Were one to total up the number of times bombs have exploded on U.S soil 99% of the incidents would have been perpetrated by Americans.

One would also likely find that the number killed and maimed by home-grown bombers exceeds by a LARGE margin those Americans killed & maimed by McVeigh and al-Qaeda combined.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:12 PM

Maybe "not alot of room" Jim, but you seem to have managed it quite comfortably......congratulations.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:17 PM

I know that some of the better informed on Mudcat are aware of what has been happening in the Scandinavian countries over the last few years.......they obviously don't include Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:42 PM

These are the actions which often occur when a people lose their voice, or are unable to make their feelings known.

Example the use of words like racist, homophobe, bigot here on Mudcat to shut down debate.....and most here are reasonable, intelligent, sane.
How do the less literate come to terms with these problems?

There are great numbers of people in our society and in the US who disagree strongly with the policies of parties which are to all intents and purposes indistiguishable from one another.

For years they have been ramming through poisonous policies against which the ordinary folk have no redress.

Example..a couple of years ago anyone who suggested a cap on immigration here was branded a racist and a bigot.....now this has been accepted by every party as necessary.

We now need to tackle the failed notion of "multiculturalism" along with many other social idiocies.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:00 PM

This wasn't reactive violence by beaten down people who haven't a voice, or anything like that. This was cold-blooded terrorist violence by a rich and privileged young man with a Nazi mindset.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:04 PM

Indeed it was, McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:11 PM

Example the use of words like racist, homophobe, bigot here on Mudcat to shut down debate.....and most here are reasonable, intelligent, sane.
How do the less literate come to terms with these problems?

- akenaton

after reading this I was reminded of the amazingly funny line from the sorely missed Douglas Adams, those of you familiar with his work will know from whence it comes

"A big hello to all intelligent life everywhere in the universe, and for the rest of you, just keep banging those rocks together."

I can hear Douglas Adams laughing

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:25 PM

I agree Mr McGrath... but I was addressing what I think is yet to come.

Do you not think that there is a large section of society which has become disconnected from government?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:26 PM

"These are the actions which often occur when a people lose their voice, or are unable to make their feelings known."
So there we have it - a hard-done-by Nazi unable to give voice to his feelings and multiculturalism - that's what slaughtered 90 odd people.
We should give the Nazis their voice and send all the foreigners home - pretty well in line with what you've argued in the past.
These killings were done by a white, Christian, Fascist thug protesting against the multiculturalism you appear to be objecting to
Keith;
You linked this obscenity with the Muslim culture you have spent so much time attacking of late "in imitation of Islamic terror" - why on earth was I surprised that you would use the massacre of 90 odd (mainly young) people as part of your anti- Muslim agenda.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:29 PM

"Jim and Lox, lay off the argumentative personal attacks please."

Quote the personal attack or publicly withdraw your groundless assertion and apologize for telling lies about other mudcatters.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:59 PM

Lox,
"Only Keith could fins a form of Logic that found Islam responsible in some way for the actions of a Moslem hater."

An attack on me personally by name.Not anything I actually said.

Jim,
"You linked this obscenity with the Muslim culture (NO I DID NOT)you have spent so much time attacking of late (I HAVE NEVER DONE ANY SUCH THING"

That is nasty, personal and untrue.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:17 PM

Jim.. I have already stated that I think the guy was unhinged.

I am not supporting or excusing the crime

But to box this up as simple right-wing Muslim hating might be convenient for you , but does not make sense.
If that were the case he would surely have selected Muslim young people to massacre?

The malaise goes much deeper I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:20 PM

yep- keep bangin them rocks together Kieth & Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:30 PM

Spot on Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:32 PM

I'd agree with Keith on that.

The comment of his which led to this spat was He has referred to his "martyrdom operation" in imitation of Islamic terror. This was an accurate statement, referring to the fact that Breivik deliberately used that term, and clearly took it from a jihadist context.

I certainly didn't read it as suggesting that Breivik modelled his actions on any Islamist. His actual atrocity bore little resemblance to even the nastiest jihadist atrocity - and of course he made a point of ensuring that he did not die, either by killing himself or dying in a shoot out. Just laid down his guns as soon as an armed policeman came in sight.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:42 PM

Norwegian Gun Laws:

- You are entitled to own up to eight guns, unless you are a registered collector.

- You are not allowed to own Automatic weapons that are fully automatic

- Guns owned must be for your own personal use (Hunting, Target/Competition Shooting)

- Extremely difficult to own two guns of the same calibre unless you have an extremely good reason (Elg 375 - 308; Red Deer 308 - 243; Roe Deer 243)

- No-one actually knows how many guns are in circulation in Norway because of what happened at the end of the Second World War (Masses of German weapons were "liberated) Up until about twenty years ago shotguns did not have to be licenced they reckon that there are about 500,000 of those weapons lying about off the Police registers.

Rapparee was perfectly correct in what he stated with regard to getting your hands on any type of gun that you want illegally. The villans always manage to get their hands on them and their principle sources of supply are not weapons stolen from owners who hold them legally.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Voltaire
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 12:26 AM

If you keep the lid screwed down the kettle will sometimes explode.
Some percentage of Norway's population is unhappy with the demographic changes that have occurred in recent decades.
If political correctness prevents expression of opinion then even some moderates will be attracted towards the extreme right.

(ducks for cover)

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 12:39 AM

The percentage of the population you speak of Voltaire is quite high. Reported on BBC this morning Breivik is expected to plead "Not Guilty" - If that is so the man obviously wants his day in court. As will all terrorists he could have achieved objective that without taking a single life.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 01:27 AM

Stringsinger

I asked what terrorist groups apart from islamic fundamentalist ones use that description for their attacks - NOT who would or who might.

George Tiller? - did those carrying out the attack kill themselves?
McVeigh did not die in the attack he did his damndest to evade capture and live. So neither were "Martyrdom operations".

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 03:51 AM

"I am not supporting or excusing the crime"
No you're not - you are doing something worse. You are suggesting that he, and others, have cause for complaint multuculturalism and immigration, and you appear to be sympathysing with that racicist cause - no surprise there- as does Voltaire.
"If that were the case he would surely have selected Muslim young people to massacre"
He is, as you said yourself, unhinged - as far as I'm concerned all racists are irrational - I don't expect any reason in their behaviour - he seeks attention for his cause.
What this incident proves beyond doubt is that acts of terrorism are not confined to one race or religion
Keith - you and you alone have made these discussions 'personal' - those of us who have found your racist and homophobic arguments offensive have attacked what you have said, not you. You have slithered behind a "personal attack" defense each time - defend your repulsive ideas and don't try and hide from their consequences.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:09 AM

Jim,you are entitled to hold your opinions of me, wrong though they are.
You are NOT entitled to pollute this forum with your wrong opinions of me as a person.
It is specifically against the rules of Mudcat.
The Vols have enough to deal with just now or I would ask for it to be deleted again.

To be clear, I am no racist, have never expressed a racist opinion or made a racist statement here or anywhere.
You have been asked many times to produce such, but you can not because you are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:12 AM

OR homophobic!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Voltaire
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:14 AM

" you appear to be sympathysing with that racicist cause - no surprise there- as does Voltaire"

Oh, the irony!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:27 AM

Sorry - should have written Islamophobic - confusing it with another of Ake's little weaknesses, though I have no doubt he would fit that in if he could.
Once again, no opinion offered of you as a person - just your repulsively racist ideas, but I suppose your persisting in making it "personal" saves you the trouble of acknowleging those ideas.
Notice the Times makes a British fanatics connection to the killings this morning.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:31 AM

Nope - No personal attack.

A personal attack is one where a person is attacked on personal grounds.


If Keith can't show what personal grounds he has been attacked on then there is no personal attack.


So Keith, quote it or retract it.


Keith operates on the basis of insinuation. This is very clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Voltaire
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:31 AM

Anders Behring Breivik - A European Declaration of Independence

"The ideology that has taken over Western Europe goes most commonly by the name of "Political Correctness." Some people see it as a joke. It is not. It is deadly serious. It seeks to alter virtually all the rules, formal and informal, that govern relations among people and institutions. It wants to change behaviour, thought, even the words we use."

Voltaire - I disapprove of what you say, so shut up you racist homophobic bastard.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:03 AM

Good Article.

Charlie Brooker

.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:22 AM

Jim and Lox,
"no opinion offered of you as a person - just your repulsively racist ideas,"

I have never expressed a "repulsively racist idea," or you would be able to produce it.
Instead of challenging anything I actually say, you attack me personally.
You call me nasty names like racist.
That is nasty, personal and false.
It is also against the rules of our forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:07 AM

"Jim and Lox,
"no opinion offered of you as a person - just your repulsively racist ideas,""

You have attributed this post to 2 people.

And failed to provide evidence of a personal attack from me.


This is misleading.


Correct it or characterize yourself as wilfully dishonest.


Still personal attack quoted as requested.

Just a false assertion.


2 counts of dishonesty.


Will you be correcting this or compounding it with further dishonesty?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:08 AM

"Still personal attack quoted as requested."

should read:

Still no personal attack quoted as requested.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:34 AM

One thing this guy has done is take the heat off the Murdochs. They must be thinking all their birthdays have come at once.

You would almost wonder............

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:34 AM

Lox, you have wisely distanced yourself from Jim's post.
I provided evidence of your personal attack yesterday 24 Jul 11 - 03:59 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:36 AM

EDL Blame Norwegian immigration policy for the recent massacre.


link here


Interesting parallel with the views expressed by some mudcatters

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:41 AM

"I provided evidence of your personal attack yesterday 24 Jul 11 - 03:59 PM "

No you didn't.

A personal attack is an attack on somebody based on personal grounds.

You on the other hand have lied about me twice in the space of about 5 posts.


Do you retract you lies or do you wish to define yourself by them?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:48 AM

Lox,I think you are being unfair to Keith. I don't think he said what you originally accused him of. I think you made an honest mistake though. You both sre taking this too far.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:53 AM

Lox, I believe you do have personal grounds to attack me, but I refer to attacking me as opposed to one my posts.
"It is just like Keith to" is saying something about me personally.
Also, I did not say what you claimed it was just like me to say, and it would be totally unlike me to say such a thing.
Your post was a dishonest smear.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:55 AM

Thank you Jack, but they have done this before and more than once.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:57 AM

Jack,


Keith says I made a personal attack.

Can you find it?


He also attributed a quote to me that I did not write.


Will he be acknowledging his 'mistakes' or reasserting them?


Let him make his own bed.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:59 AM

""It is just like Keith to" is saying something about me personally."


Where have I written "its just like keith"?


Fabrication number 3

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 07:06 AM

This determination to play the poor smeared victim, combined with fabricated quotes and false accusations is clearly a cynical attempt to draw the attention of the mods.

Unfortunately for Keith it is clearly unsupported.

I will therefore withdraw and let him furnish the hole he has dug exactly how he pleases.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 07:18 AM

"Only Keith could fins a form of Logic that found Islam responsible in some way for the actions of a Moslem hater."

These were your actual words, Lox. Not the exact "just like Keith" words you deny, but "only Keith" surely near enough to cite from memory. Calling it 'a fabrication' is just typical of your usual twisted argumentations.

Just like Lox to evade the issue on the foolish technicality of a slight misrecollection of what he actually said: but then that's old Foxiloxy back, to the life as ever was.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 07:42 AM

Correction to previous post.

Lox, I believe you do have personal grounds to attack me, but I refer to attacking me as opposed to one my posts.
"Only Keith could" is saying something about me personally.
Also, I did not say what you claimed only I could say, and it would be totally unlike me to say such a thing.
Your post was a dishonest smear.

Off you go then Lox.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 07:59 AM

Lox, I said that he had not said what you said he said that that you both were taking this too far.

Think about it. Wasn't that correct?