BS: A traditional England batting collapse?

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: alanabit
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 10:52 AM

India were all out for 300 in their first innings and have just made a flying start to their second: Nine runs in their first over and Sehwag is still at the crease... Dravid has had no rest after his splendid 146 not out. Who will tire first - the England bowlers or Dravid? It could make the difference between a draw and an England win. I think England need to take wickets before the Indians have posted their first hundred. Let's see!

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 09:29 AM

Anyway, Endland 591-6, India first innings 253-7. Dravid (130) seems to be doing OK but he's running out of partners.

What's the betting, England win or a draw?

(I'll go for an England win)

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 11:40 AM

I hope that England can keep up the standard when proper test matches resume after the five year gap.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 12:14 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 11:37 AM

Thank you for the article, I think I'll stick (pun!) to polo!!

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: MikeL2
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 10:59 AM

hi Jon

Interesting article.

In addition to the different pitches the weather adds to the pitch effect.

Over here for instance humid cloudy weather tends to help the ball swing. ( another recent thread deals with this.).

I found it interesting yesterday to watch the Indian spin bowlers in action. They certainly turned the ball sharply and on another day eg when Cook wasn't at the crease they could have done well.

Today when Swann bowled he got very little turn and he went for 88 runs in 13 overs for two wickets.

Well done England - might have a few tonight to celebrate.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 10:56 AM

Thanks Jon

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 10:38 AM

Here's and article for you, boko

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 10:26 AM

eveing??????

evening of course!!!

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 10:25 AM

Please explain "conditions that suit English bowlers"

Dining on Dhoni Gosht and papadums this eveing???

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 10:25 AM

And that's it. 244 all out.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 08:21 AM

England certainly do have an excelent team, but I think it has to be tempered by the fact they are playing in conditions that suit English bowlers.

I would just love to see England playing India on their home turf. I think that would be a much better measure of how good England really are. In fact I think it would be very exciting.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 06:48 AM

It was Clive Lloyd captained WI when I started taking an interest in test cricket, (I'm 50 btw, Alan).

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: MikeL2
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 06:23 AM

hi

Alan & Jon, yes England have played well in the past two or three series. Their success is welcome but does have to be tempered by the quality of the opposition to some extent.

Australia has been the top nation for many years ( with the occasional times when England have managed to win the Ashes ). Recently however they have been in decline and India, always a difficult team to beat in their own country have taken over the top spot from Oz.

Now it appears barring a miracle England will be top. It is not England's fault that the opposition is not of the highest quality. They can only beat what is put out against them. On paper India still has a high quality team that for a number of reasons has not played well on this visit.

I believe in sport that you can only play as well as the opposition allows you to and in fairness England has come out on top through patient, intelligent and doggedness against a technically more talented side - especially in batting.

We have not really seen any fight from the India team. The appear to be unable to deal with the pressure when England start to get on top. No doubt there will be many enquiries in the media, but the answer is that in the past few series England have beaten the best sides available at the time. For this they deserve the accolade of being recognised as the No 1 Team in the World.

Like Alan I have lived through a truly chequer-board career of England performance , especially since the 1940's.

Let's wallow in their success - it might be only temporary.

Cheers

Mike

ps Spare a thought for poor Sewag who was brought in to bolster the India early batting line-up. He lasted just one ball in each innings !! Yes a "King Pair". Very rare and one has to sympathise with him.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 05:41 AM

I'm not sure Alan.

England certainly are playing as a team, getting the best from each player and as you have commented, not letting their heads drop when things are not going their way. These have to be positives.

On the other hand, I'm not so sure about our opposition (although with a line up of Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar and Laxman - I'd say India on paper have a pretty good top batting lineup) and to what extent we are really playing good sides.

Maybe I'm just giving good old English negativity here but I'd have difficulty considering us in the same league as the West Indies or Australia when they were so dominant.

But time will tell and I believe there is hope.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 02:29 AM

I suppose three wickets lost in half an hour was a mini batting collapse of sorts. Perhaps England just want to keep their hands in! Being serious, it is hard to quibble with a day's play like that. In the first two tests, England got into positions from which they could reasonably have been expected to lose. Indeed, for most of my lifetime they would have. This England side is evidently very different. They battled and ultimately hammered the opposition in those games. This time they seem to have marked out their territory from the start. They are inflicting an uncommon amount of indignity on the world's (supposedly) best side.                  
My ignorance of cricket is admitedly immense, but I grew up hearing about how England were casually walloped by Australia, the West Indies and virtually anyone else from a warmer climate. Having to get used to a winning England cricket team at the age of 56 takes a bit of adjustment! Is it really true? Can it last?

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 06:02 PM

I think they would need the weather to help them.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 05:58 PM

500 lead and plenty of time left.

I don't think the Indians can save this now. Not even if we lent them Cook.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 01:06 PM

Didn't think India would be out again with the light possibly a bit iffy but they are and it's

3 for 1 !

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 01:00 PM

710 for 7 Declared. Cook out for 294 - shame.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 12:35 PM

And they are back out now...

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 12:27 PM

Apparently bad light has stopped play. Wonder if that will end Cooks chance of 300.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: MikeL2
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 10:43 AM

Yipes as I typed the other message we lost 3 wickets in no time at all. But I guess quick runs are now the order of the day.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: MikeL2
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 10:40 AM

hi guys

It doesn't look like an England collapse is evident in this innings !!

Admittedly India are poor in this game but even so the wicket today is helping the bowlers. Unfortunately the Indian bowlers are not able to take any advantage.

Other than a miracle or two days rain ( and this is not forecast) it looks like England will become the World No 1 Test Cricket Team.

Again in this match England has looked superior in all departments with Brosnan and Broad with the ball and all the England batsmen performing well especially Cook who is heading for his 300.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: MikeL2
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 12:13 PM

hi Jon

I am not sure but as I understand it we have to win the series by two clear matches. So another win would clinch it if I am right, but I think two draws now would do it.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 11:03 AM

As a still picture it still doesn't prove that the ball touched the boundary marker.

Yes, you need a few frames either side. I've viewed it a few more times btw and I feel more convinced that you can see it take a deflection which must be the ball bouncing off the "rope".

Now we have to win the next one...

And the next one - is it all 4 to go #1?

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: MikeL2
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 10:32 AM

Hi Jon

<" The hard part is whether the ball touches the rope about here ">

As a still picture it still doesn't prove that the ball touched the boundary marker. Having re-watched the movie I am still convinced that it did. If the boundary marker had been a rope ( as always used to be the case) the ball would have rolled over it and the answer would have been obvious. Still; you can much advetising matter on a piece of rope !!!!!

Interesting though....

Now we have to win the next one...
Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:09 PM

but he may not have seen it, the deflection

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 03:54 PM

The hard part is whether the ball touches the rope about here
Personally, watching it in motion before and after this point, I do suspect there is a deflection from the rope but I'm still not 100% sure...

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 03:54 PM

Oh well, I take a look at a different shot and I see it differently.

There is hand contact
but the fielder directs the ball onto his knee

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: MikeL2
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 02:38 PM

hi Wandering Minstrel

Thanks for confirming what I am sure that I saw.

The whole thing was a huge error on the part of the third umpire who had all the TV shots from all angles and slo-mos etc.

Had he called it as it appears to us this incident would not have happened.

However as in all games the referees' decision is final and that is that.

Great game though.

regards

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 01:44 PM

I've just downloaded the best clip I could find on Youtube and tried stepping it through one frame at a time. From that, I think the fielder deflects the ball with his hand saving the four runs but I'd like a better resolution than I have to feel certain about it.

What should happen if it unclear whether a four is scored?

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 12:08 PM

Mike,

I'm relieved to hear that you thought the ball hit Kumars knee then the rope. That was exactly the opinion I had formed from the replays.

When Dhoni told TMS at the end of play that "It didn't feel right" I think he thought that too, possibly from cross-examining Kumars "stop".

Not that it really made the slightest difference in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: MikeL2
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 10:30 AM

hi Jon

I agree Andy Flower has much to do with the improvement of the Test Team.
He certainly seems to have brought more discipline and team spirit to the side and he appears to be a good man manager.

He played quite a bit up here in the North West in club cricket. I saw him play for Heywood some years ago.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 04:19 PM

Our current team is sure that - a team - Every man plays his part and it seems that they have the spirit and ability to up their game at crucial times and weather all kinds of storms.

Personally, I suspect Andy Flower deserves some thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: MikeL2
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 03:56 PM

hi alan

Yes you are right that our climate is not always conducive to producing great cricketers.

Despite this though having been interested both as a player and a spectator for many years, I can remember other eras of success for England. These were mainly gauged by our performances against Australia - always our greatest rivals.

But more recently the emergence of first West Indies and then the twin spearhead of India & Pakistan and even more recently Sri Lanka, has somewhat changed the face of International Cricket.

Followers of New Zealand & South Africa please don't think I have ignored you, as we have always had very interesting series with you.

The emergence of India as World Number 1 is IMHO due to the temporary ( I hope ) failure by Australia to find a winning team.

The strange thing to me is that England are now poised to wrest the No 1 spot from India ( providing they keep up the performance level for the rest of this series.) but in terms of World class individuals we don't really have many that would make it in a real World representative team !!

Our current team is sure that - a team - Every man plays his part and it seems that they have the spirit and ability to up their game at crucial times and weather all kinds of storms. In this match Cook has failed again but others have filled in more than adequately. Tremlett was injured and up comes Bresnan with a match-winning contribution.

Strauss as captain comes in for a lot of press criticism. Only today I heard Geoff Boycott criticise Strauss's field placing when England had India at 140 odd for 8 and the match nearly won. He said that he should have more attacking fields for his bowlers !!! But Boycott is not one really to criticise England's captains; he was probably England's worst ever captain and Yorkshire's too for that matter. A great batsman no doubt but a captain ....no!!

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: alanabit
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 02:46 PM

No problem Mike. "On with the dance! Let joy be unconfined!"

For most of my life England has been the one country whose status as a Test nation has come into question the most frequently. It really takes some getting used to having an England side, which wins matches! It is all the more remarkable for the fact that England is the country with the climate least suitable for test cricket. I know next to nothing about cricket, but it is obvious that our current crop of cricketers has played exceptionally well over the past few years.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: MikeL2
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 02:36 PM

hi arthur

Sorry you missed most of the end of the game. I agree with you that the incident had little impact on the outcome.

In a way I felt similar to you in that I had been at the game and had to come home from what I thought would be a hard-fought finish.

It turned out a one horse race - which I am of course delighted with but I would have been really miffed if it had turned out to be a classic finish and I could only watch on TV.

As I said above I don't think the incident affected the result but I think Dhoni's decision saved the series. If it hadn't been for that I am sure there would have been huge recriminations and bad feelings created.

One good thing though - can you imagine had it been the other way round and had happened in India with Tendulkar having been given out in those circumstances ????

Common sense prevailed and I look forward to the next game.

I think that there were two key turning points in this game which turned the game in England's direction.
1. Broad's hat-trick spell
2. The Bell/Pietersen partnership

Great stuff - best game I have enjoyed for a long time.

Mind you I was at the recent Warrington v Wigan Rugby League game and that took some beating for excitement and first class rugby league - ooops - apologies for changing the topic Alan ...

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 12:32 PM

The incident IMHO had no bearing on the result.

Agreed.

England were much the better side. Simple as that, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 12:29 PM

2 - 0 to England.

5 for Bresnan and I missed the lot today, except for the last wicket.

Well done England.

The incident IMHO had no bearing on the result.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 11:57 AM

Agreed, Mike.

---
I'm a bit surprised the way India have gone btw. I'd have thought Dravid, Laxman and Tendulkar should provide a very strong base.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: MikeL2
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 11:45 AM

hi jon

I was was not disputing the decision , I just described what I saw.

The important thing is that cricket was not damaged and that the game continues in a good spirit.

Another one to Bresnan as I type.....eight down two to go.....looks as though it will be all over tonight.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 11:29 AM

I suppose with Tendulkar still in one could say anything is possible...

And he's gone now. 107 for 7.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 10:32 AM

Thanks for the article.....politic.....!!!????

I suppose it could be Mike but even if that is the case, I don't see anything to be gained by disputing the official version.

55 for 6......looks like it's all over....BUT.....as I said earlier this game has swayed first one way and then another....is there a sting in the tail???

I suppose with Tendulkar still in one could say anything is possible but I think it's all over.

It's raining here in Cheshire !!!

Hot and sunny in North Norfolk.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: MikeL2
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 10:27 AM

hi jon

Thanks for the article.....politic.....!!!????

55 for 6......looks like it's all over....BUT.....as I said earlier this game has swayed first one way and then another....is there a sting in the tail???

It's raining here in Cheshire !!!

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 10:23 AM

55 for 5. Will they last today out?

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 10:10 AM

Well Here's the bbc article.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: MikeL2
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 10:07 AM

hi Jon

I realise that some representations were made but something other than just " the spirit of the game" made the change of heart.

Ironically India is the only Country in World Cricket who refuse to use the photographic evidence in their games. In this test series an agreement was made that photographic evidence would not be used for LBW decisions but for other decisions when required.

There is a long history of bad feelings with India and cricket nations , including England - ..

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 09:39 AM

Strauss and Flower approached the Indian captain and coach and India agreed to withdraw their appeal.

There does seem to be general agreement that India's appeal was valid and that Bell was OUT.

Apparently the reversal was for the spirit of the game of cricket and for the sake of the series.

---
39 for 4 as I type.

Subject: RE: BS: A traditional England batting collapse?
From: MikeL2
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 09:35 AM

hummm pps now 37 for 4....India will need a miracle or a lot of rain