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BS: security concerns about Norway shooting

Related threads:
BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway? (223)
BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp (317)


mg 24 Jul 11 - 01:09 PM
GUEST,livelylass 24 Jul 11 - 01:13 PM
Rapparee 24 Jul 11 - 01:29 PM
mg 24 Jul 11 - 01:46 PM
Megan L 24 Jul 11 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 24 Jul 11 - 02:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jul 11 - 02:47 PM
GUEST,mg 24 Jul 11 - 06:17 PM
GUEST,mg 24 Jul 11 - 06:18 PM
Greg F. 24 Jul 11 - 07:13 PM
GUEST,mg 24 Jul 11 - 07:25 PM
andrew e 24 Jul 11 - 07:34 PM
SINSULL 24 Jul 11 - 07:44 PM
skarpi 24 Jul 11 - 07:48 PM
GUEST,mg 24 Jul 11 - 08:08 PM
Ebbie 24 Jul 11 - 08:15 PM
GUEST,mg 24 Jul 11 - 08:28 PM
GUEST,.just me 24 Jul 11 - 08:50 PM
ranger1 24 Jul 11 - 08:53 PM
Ebbie 24 Jul 11 - 09:03 PM
GUEST,mg 24 Jul 11 - 11:35 PM
GUEST,mg 25 Jul 11 - 12:04 AM
GUEST,mg 25 Jul 11 - 01:37 AM
mg 25 Jul 11 - 01:58 AM
GUEST,livelylass 25 Jul 11 - 05:37 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Jul 11 - 06:53 AM
Jack the Sailor 25 Jul 11 - 08:17 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jul 11 - 08:35 AM
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Greg F. 25 Jul 11 - 09:49 AM
Little Hawk 25 Jul 11 - 09:55 AM
Rapparee 25 Jul 11 - 10:29 AM
Bill D 25 Jul 11 - 11:21 AM
skarpi 25 Jul 11 - 11:56 AM
Jack the Sailor 25 Jul 11 - 11:58 AM
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Jack Campin 25 Jul 11 - 01:41 PM
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mayomick 25 Jul 11 - 02:59 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Jul 11 - 03:13 PM
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GUEST,mg 25 Jul 11 - 11:27 PM
Ebbie 26 Jul 11 - 02:45 AM
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Teribus 26 Jul 11 - 07:21 PM
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Songwronger 26 Jul 11 - 11:30 PM
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GUEST,Peter Laban 27 Jul 11 - 04:21 AM
Penny S. 27 Jul 11 - 04:38 AM
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GUEST,mg 27 Jul 11 - 05:44 PM
Teribus 27 Jul 11 - 08:48 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 27 Jul 11 - 09:08 PM
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mg 27 Jul 11 - 11:03 PM
mg 27 Jul 11 - 11:27 PM
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Subject: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:09 PM

I am going to start digging into the logistics, distance, timings, resources etc...but for a gunman/woman near a nation's capital..that has just had its government building blown up..be able to take down that many people...raises some concerns in my head. They say it was after the Oslo explosion...and I will presume he was not physically there..but surely it would have immediately been on the radio. Surely police would have been on highest alert.If they did not carry weapons, but they must have them cached somewhere??I would think...they would be told to fetch their weapons in some sort of order. Everyone would be listening to the radio. The minute the first shot rang out and the first staffer or kid was able to run to the woods the police would have been called. If the news of the Oslo shooting was on the radio already, and you were in a camp nearby, would you not gather the campers, account for them, ..if for no other reason than some would have relatives...maybe it all happened almost simultaneously and I will be checking on that.

OK..so you have a shooting, you have multiple phone calls...you have to get police out there. Of course theywill be focused on Oslo..but you still have citizens..parents..military..were there calls on the radio to get some boats close to the island? They said their swat helicopter was not on standby. It could be in for repairs or it could be on its way to the capital..who knows. There are other helicopters in Oslo..there was one taking photos of the shooting..can you not ask it to drop some swat people off...

There must have been boats on the island? Or was there a bridge? Could some staff not have circled around and brought a boat to the other side? It was close enough that some swam across. What was camp security like? Were they aware of the explosion in Oslo? What was the police force on or near the island? There have got to be some sort of explanations for why a gunman shot for one and a half hours and was not taken down. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:13 PM

Unlike many of us in Europe, Norway's emergency services are expertly primed to deal with serious snow in winter. However their emergency services are possibly less expertly primed to deal with gun-toting extremists. One may but ponder "why?"


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:29 PM

It could be done. A timer to detonate the car or truck bomb (even a cell phone!), a run to the camp with enough ammunition for a small war, an "assault weapon" that will fire both full- and semi- automatic (and plenty of practice with it), and a lunatic desire would be all that was needed. The killer would be familiar with the local police set-up as well, and would rightly expect that the bomb would be occupying the police while he did the rest of his filthy work. The fact that a helicopter wasn't readily available is not surprising; our local police would have a hard time rounding one up in a hurry. Because this is a public forum and I don't want to give people more ideas than they already have I won't discuss what I see as the criminal's failures.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:46 PM

I am not even thinking about the criminal's failures. I am thinking about security failures, especially after a huge explosion...that children were apparently just wandering around and were told by gunman to come to him..he was dressed as a police officer but where were staff after not just a happy MidSummer day but after a huge explosion. Of course assmebling everyone together would have its security risks...but they should not have been just wandering around. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Megan L
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:48 PM

the Buzzards circle


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:38 PM

'..but they should not have been just wandering around.'

Not sure what you would have people do, round up everybody in the country, just in case?

There had been an explosion in Oslo, 50 km away. It was completely unclear what had happened, surely you have seen the confusion in the news reports during the first few hours. By all accounts people on the island had gathered in groups, discussing the news of the explosion. Who could have foreseen the man dressed as a policeman was going to gun them down. It was the most unlikeliest of scenarios. One cannot be prepared for something like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:47 PM

The police were on the spot disarming the man within 50 minutes of being alerted. Considering they were dealing with a massive crisis in Central Oslo, and the camp was way out in the country, that compares pretty well to how the British police responded to say, the Cumbria shooting spree.

Sometimes when people talk about how "it's easy with hindsight" what they really are trying to excuse is a lack of foresight. Not in this case, I feel. Nobody could have anticipated it.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 06:17 PM

I would not have expected teens to be left without staff members following such a major explosion so near to the area..and I would have expected policies that say anyone who comes here, including police, checks in with staff..that would be normal procedure if there were no immediate danger..

This was a camping area...there were some boats because some boats went to rescue the swimmers...boats run by volunteers, and I personally would have volunteered..with local police, armed hopefully with more than faith in the goodness of man/womankind, could have saved quite a few I would think.

And anyone running any sort of event should have some plans in place. There are crazy people everywhere, and drug lords, and gangs, and religious fanatics and people who hear voices and terrorists...and if this is what you mean by being a buzzard I am proud to be one. The other option is to just let people die. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 06:18 PM

and furthermore..50 minutes..he killed about one per minute.

Cut 10 minutes off response time and 10 people are saved. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 07:13 PM

major explosion so near to the area

As was previously explained, the explosion was not "near the area".

I would not have expected teens to be left without staff members

They were not 'left without staff members'.

and I personally would have volunteered

Its a crying shame- damn near a crime- that you weren't there to handle things and make everything OK.

Perhaps you should get on a plane now - there's probably something in Norway needs whipping into shape, and only you can do it!

There are crazy people everywhere, and drug lords, and gangs, and religious fanatics and people who hear voices and terrorists...

HOLY SHIT! It just ain't safe out there!!! RUN! RUN!!

Cut 10 minutes off response time and 10 people are saved

You bet, mg- and if wishes were horses, beggars would ride, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 07:25 PM

One thing..there is always an overconfidence in the prospect of rescue by helicopter. There are never enough helicopters, pilots. They can not fly in some weather. There are not helicopters just roving the skies waiting to rescue us. If you are surrounded by water, as the Japan situation was, as this situation was, as Katrina was..you are going to have to use boats. Surely the camp would have had recreational boats if it was an island only reachable by boat..and I don't know if it was or if there was a bridge or moat or whatever..and surely they would have had a plan in case campers got sick or injured..oh..probably a helicopter..I am telling you..you have to have plans that do not include helicopters. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: andrew e
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 07:34 PM

As in most "terrorist" attacks, we will probably never know what really happened, and who was behind them.
Certainly can't rely on the mainstream media to tell us.
Ever wondered where they get their info from?


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 07:44 PM

As I understand it:
The bomb was in a car and on a timer. By the time it went off, the bomber was well on his way to the camp ground where he presented himself as a police officer instructing all in security measures re: the Prime Minister's (IS that his title) visit.
Perfect sense even if they had heard of the bombing. All gathered round and he opened fire. Panic. Staff as well as children were slaughtered.
Well planned, mg.
Like it or not, no one was at fault.
Sometimes, shit happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: skarpi
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 07:48 PM

I wonder , is he number 1 of many more to come in Europe in the coming days and weeks ? are there others with him in other Countrys ? t

I just don´t think he was acting alone ...there is a bad smell of this .


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:08 PM

A prime minister who just barely escaped a massive explosion is probably not going to go to a children's camp shortly thereafter, scheduled or not. There are other reasons that a fake police officer could have used that would be believable...as in I am here to protect you after this terrible explosion. I have read there was 2 hours in between..should be confirmed. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:15 PM

I don't follow mg's reasoning. Let's say that downtown Seattle suffered a bomb attack.

Setting the scenario:

It is high summer. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of campers out there. Everyone from Girl Scout camps to family outings to Outward Bound exercises and many more. They can be 10 miles from Seattle or they can be 100 miles away. Heck, they could even be 3,000 miles away and still be in the same country. Where does one draw the line?

I agree that disaster plans should be in place; there are flash floods out there, lightning storms, bear attacks, broken legs and backs, flat tires, cases of homesickness... But only in this country do we feel that we need to include the hazards of a potential attack by a human being. And even we don't prepare for the same human being presenting himself as a figure of authority.

Norway, given its history of non-aggression, has about as much reason to expect such an event as a group of Amish on an outing having to worry about one of its people running amok.

The best - meaning safest - of all worlds is one in which we would have precious little freedom.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:28 PM

If you are in charge of security planning for a country, or a big insituttion like a hospital or whatever..surely you realize that no place is truly safe now. There are drug addicts..there are open borders..way more than when each country maintained border security..there are at least in US many people who formerly would have been hospitalized or put in secure situations for their protection and that of society..surely anyone in a security situation would realize that every country is vulnerable.

Especially if your government headquarters just got blown up perhaps you would put yourself in higher alert mode. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,.just me
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:50 PM

You will not find "this" in the "mainstream news."
Clones - remove if offensive - but please don't "Out Me."

The assasin's timing was precise. It was more than Norway he wanted to terrorize.

A major - world inclusive - youth event (non-political or religous) - was previously canceled - when Iran - well "had issues."

A major - perhaps the world's largest youth event ever (non-political or religous but with an affirm commitment to God and Country) was scheduled, for this week, in the neighboring country.

Every parent, of every participant (males and females, Budhist, Islam, Christian, Morman) participating from the UK to Kenya, from the USA to India ... must have doubts and fears about the week ahead.

Tears flow freely.

Sincerely,
JustMe


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: ranger1
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:53 PM

mg, I think you don't know enough about the country or the events to be second-guessing the police and their response time. Time to just let it go.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 09:03 PM

This incident, from my local radio station, bears (no pun intended_ out my thesis. It is not possible to be ever safe.

Teens mauled by bear in Alaska
RACHEL D'ORO,Associated Press Writer

ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — Students participating in a survival skills course in Alaska have been mauled by a bear, and two have suffered life-threatening injuries.

Alaska State Troopers say the students were in a group of seven students participating in a 30-day backcountry course by the National Outdoor Leadership School when the attack occurred Saturday night near Chulitna, about 120 miles north of Anchorage. They were rescued early Sunday.

NOLS spokesman Bruce Palmer says another group of seven students and three instructors is waiting about six miles away for a helicopter hired by the Lander, Wyo.-based organization.

Palmer says 17-year-old Joshua Berg of New City, N.Y., and 17-year-old Samuel Gottsegen of Denver were critically injured with bear bite wounds. They are being treated at an Anchorage hospital.

Palmer says two others also were injured.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:35 PM

No. I see it as our duty as world citizens to analyze these situations and see what was wrong and what was right in order to lessen future catasrophes.

I don't know what was on the radio but I can't figure out why they would not put out a radio plea for boats to be brought to a certain dock..a summer's day on a lake near campgrounds..there were boats around. And maybe there were fears that other terrorists or gunmen/women would shoot the boat bringers..which is a possibility..but many people would understand that and bring their boats, jetskis anyway. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 12:04 AM

http://www.rnw.nl/international-justice/bulletin/norway-suspect-faces-court-police-defend-arrest-delay-1

This says there were police on the island. Usually? Came because they were called? They put in a call to Oslo and then 8 minutes later, an unexplained delay, asked officially for help. Granted..the emergency forces were probably involved in the Oslo explosion..but those 8 minutes meant 8 lives lost..or perhaps 12 as they are now saying there was an hour delay rather than 1.5 hours.

Also somewhere it said that there was a flotilla of boats picking up the swimmers and the police had expected to maybe be able to use some of those boats.

I can't figure out why they could not commandeer the helicopter that was taking pictures or enough boats. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 01:37 AM

Here is one hero. There were more boats rescuing kids..it sounds like he went all the way to the island. Some pulled out kids that were swimming.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/07/24/exp.seg.holmes.norway.rescuer.cnn?&hpt=hp_c2

The kids at the camp called their 911 equivalent and were told not to call unless it was about the Oslo bombing...that does not make sense..if they were safe to speak couldn't they scream they are shooting as us here? And these kids all have thumbs worn out from texting..could they not text to the police? Their parents? I am sure they did but there are reports that the police responded to a call from the campground across from the camp..who heard shots for 30 minutes. Now, what sounds like gunfire on a camp where there are presumably no cars? Fireworks maybe..or guns...especially after their government building has exploded. 30 minutes..I won't do the math this time. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mg
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 01:58 AM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2018280/Why-did-police-long-reach-island-massacre.html

There are some interesting observations here. One spokesman says remember we had to notify the personnel, they had to put on their protective gear and they had to arm themselves. As someone points out in the comments section, their government had just blown up...wouldn't they have protective gear on? And be armed? If not..could they not grab and go and be putting on some stuff in the car or van or whatever?

They overloaded the boat they had. Norwegians surely know their boats..and this was not a huge storm on open seas..it was a few hundred yards across a lake I think. Kids swam to safety.

And they ride for 28 minutes, once dressed and armed and arrive on the dock. Then they start to commandeer the boats. Do they not have cell phones in Norway? Communication with local police who surely would have rounded up some boats for them?   I would understand if this were a very poor country, but this is one of the most prosperous countries in the world..their special forces don't have a few zodiacs? They said their helicopter, which was somehow out of service, was for observation and not for transporting crew. Even two or three people? That is all that might have been necessary.

Once again..there is no time for delay in these situations. Every minute that goes by you know what happens. Every minute. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:37 AM

"I agree that disaster plans should be in place; there are flash floods out there, lightning storms, bear attacks, broken legs and backs, flat tires, cases of homesickness... But only in this country do we feel that we need to include the hazards of a potential attack by a human being. And even we don't prepare for the same human being presenting himself as a figure of authority.
Norway, given its history of non-aggression, has about as much reason to expect such an event as a group of Amish on an outing having to worry about one of its people running amok."

Quite so. I also agree with SINSULL's evaluation above. It was a well planned attack.
I really hope this man's actions neither indicates nor inspires a wave of right-wing "christian" fanatic terrorism in Europe.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:53 AM

A massive bomb goes off right in the heart of the capital city and immediately the call goes out for assistance from all emergency services and you have all your police, all your paramedics and all doctors on call heading towards that situation at speed.

You have nobody left to respond to anything else until that situation is assessed and under control.

You don't have the slightest clue as to how many people you will need, so you pull them all in.

To turn around even a small section of that response and send them in another direction is not the work of minutes. They are not travelling in a body, but arriving piecemeal, which means a great deal of work finding out who is where, and redirecting those nearest.

The phone lines will be jammed solid with people trying to check on relatives in the bombed area.

In other words, TOTAL CHAOS!

There is one person responsible for all those deaths, and looking for somebody else to blame, while natural, is extremely unfair.

The police and authorities did their best, IMO, in dealing with a situation which was unforseeable, and therefore unforseen.

Exactly as in the July 7th London bombings, lessons will be learned and they will do better if it happens again.

Nothing succeeds like 20/20 hindsight, especially when it is used to apportion responsibility unfairly.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 08:17 AM

I am sure that Norway will institute armed security at politically sensitive "targets" I am sure that they will more closely monitor the sale of large quantities of "weapons grade" fertilizer.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 08:35 AM

It would appear that one of the first people who was killed by the fake policeman at the camp was the security guard who came to see him as he landed.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:46 AM

There are about a billion ways of compromising security in this world. All it takes is ONE person who decides to do something most people would never even imagine doing, and he plans it well and carries it out with determination.

Period.

There is no way of preventing or preparing for any and all such violent acts, and I see no reason to be taking Norwegians to task for the fact that one crazy man there did something virtually no one could have foreseen.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:49 AM

I can't understand why mg doesn't offer her services to the Norwegian government immediately. I'm sure they'd be happy to fly such an acknowledged expert as herself to Oslo at no charge.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:55 AM

Well, yes, but there's still the massive tsunami recovery effort in Japan to clear up, you see. After that, maybe.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:29 AM

Turns out one of those shot was an off-duty policeman working as a security guard.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:21 AM

If I heard about a bomb going off in the capital, I would feel relieved to know my kids were 'safe' on an island a long way from there.

NO ONE can anticipate such a monstrous attack.

There WILL be occasional psychopaths who get the idea that they can provoke political action with gratuitous violence.

There is NO WAY to guard against really strange, random events like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: skarpi
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:56 AM

I am listing to our radio , and the talk is that we could have a copy/paste terrorist elsewhere , like here in Reykjavík ..its very easy
in Iceland to get things to make a big bomb and the police does not have money to do anything , so we are weak ..

Brevik said there 322 left wings people here in Iceland and they all on his dead list .

question is , is he alone ? I don´t think so.There is a bad smell of this .


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:58 AM

Remember that before 9/11/2001 it was policy to appease high jackers and let them into cockpits. The really nasty tricks only work once.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 01:07 PM

From what I have read local police were very nearby, and the swat team does not sound like it was taken to the capital, as a police chief was talking about needing them to be dressed and armed and even notified.

And yes, every place in the world has to think of things like this. There is no utopia, and once one is created, there are teams of people, deranged or politically committed or both, looking for soft spots. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 01:41 PM

every place in the world has to think of things like this

No it does NOT, and any country that prepared itself adequately to stop an eventuality like this would be a paranoid totalitarian shithole.

That is, it would be the kind of country Breivik was fighting for, and the kind of country you and the authoritarian right want to turn the US into.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 02:40 PM

"any country that prepared itself adequately to stop an eventuality like this would be a paranoid totalitarian shithole."

Yeppers - thoughts echoed (albeit less strongly) by Ebbie above.

Even though Northern European countries like Norway may be going through some troubles, they yet remain the epitome of proper democracy, progressive liberal thought and socially conscientious policy in the Western world.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mayomick
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 02:59 PM

There has been speculation that the Oslo bomb was set off for the very purpose of diverting emergency services from the slaughter planned for the summer camp.
see for instance:
http://falkvinge.net/2011/07/23/who-kills-80-teenagers-one-by-one/


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 03:13 PM

Precisely Mick!

A no brainer, if you want sufficient time for that kind of body count.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:55 PM

We have not heard about the ferry captain. Was he/she involved in the rescue? If not, why not?

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/world/multiple-security-failures-in-norway-59533.html

Says the leader of the camp was on ferry with madman. Then she went to the main lodge or whatever, met with unarmed (God save us) security/policeman. They were suspicious. I have read elsewhere that unarmed policeman was suspicious and questionned madman but this is the first I have heard of camp director. Above story says madman followed them to the lodge and shot them. I have read other stories..we won't know for ages exactly what happened.

One real tragedy here is their equivalent of 911 system. They tried calling and were told not to call unless it was related to Oslo explosion...well, I would say it was. There was, as far as I can see, between 5:10 and 5:25 before police were notified..did they receive calls from the victims? How were calls routed? Of course the system would have been overwhelmed..but why would they be calling OSlo when there were local police nearby?

Oh the helicopter situation is sad. One story said the pilot was on vacation. Another said helicopter was available 5 out of 7 days. Several have said the helicopter was for observation only and not able to transport the team..then why are they talking about not being able to use the helicoptor because it was not available if they could not use it in the first place. Something just does not make sense.

If there is a ferry, and police need to get to the island..can they not secure the ferry? Unless the ferry is out in the middle of the lake picking up the possibly dying children.

Some things do not make sense. And yes, I would rather light a virtual candle somewhere and consider my job done but I think every citizen at least of every free country has to ask these questions and find out some answers and apply them to their own place. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:27 PM

It turns out that the security person/policeman who was shot is the stepbrother of the crown princess and I believe his son was there and he shoved him out of the way. There was more information about the ferry ride..the report I read and now can not pull up said that the woman who was shot was a museum worker and had deep suspicions after questioning him on the boat. She left the ferry and contacted the real policeman who somehow then shot them both. If only she had been able to talk to the ferry captain and have him/her on guard, or ready to call police or something. But she was a true heroine..as was the real policeman. As were the citizens who put their boats in the water. And of course the swat team. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 02:45 AM

"She left the ferry and contacted the real policeman who somehow then shot them both."

I"m having trouble following the story.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 03:54 AM

Yay, Ebbie; without discounting the seriousness of the matter, it is sounding on this thread more & more like one of those novels by such as Le Carré which always lose me & leave my poor little brain reeling about ¼-way thru! Could we keep all these speculations a bit less complex, please?

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:14 AM

'Then she went to the main lodge or whatever, met with unarmed (God save us) security/policeman.'

It may come as a surprise but it wouldn't occur to anyone in Europe that security people (if there are any to begin with) in youth camps would be anything else but unarmed.   

I, for one, would certainly never consider to send any child of mine to a camp that entertained the thought of having armed guards around children.

Again, the situation as it occurred on Utøya was so outside of the realm of what can be expected there is really no way to be prepared for it without turning a country into a police state.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 06:36 AM

To answer the points raised in Mary's opening post:

1: "I am going to start digging into the logistics, distance, timings, resources etc...but for a gunman/woman near a nation's capital..that has just had its government building blown up..be able to take down that many people...raises some concerns in my head."

You should have done that before breaking into print. At least looked at the location of the incidents on a map.

2: "They say it was after the Oslo explosion...and I will presume he was not physically there..but surely it would have immediately been on the radio."

It was.......He wasn't (at the site of the bomb).......Reports of the explosion were broadcast immediately. At this time (15:26hrs) they had no idea what had caused the explosion only that it had happened, it was massive and it was in the centre of the Government Office area of Oslo.

3: "Surely police would have been on highest alert."

WHY? At this time (15:26hrs) they had no idea what had caused the explosion only that it had happened, it was massive and it was in the centre of the Government Office area of Oslo. They responded to the explosion rapidly as did all emergency services. It was not until some time after that they knew it was a bomb, their first priority was to secure the area in order that those injured could be helped.

4: "If they did not carry weapons, but they must have them cached somewhere??I would think...they would be told to fetch their weapons in some sort of order."

ALL policemen in Norway are armed (9mm side arms & H&K MP-5)


5: "Everyone would be listening to the radio."

Yes no doubt they were. Nationally broadcast were two separate instructions:

Initially after the bomb went off in Oslo people were told to not use their mobile phones as it would overwhelm the network and hinder the work of the emergency services and hospitals who were frantically calling in people.

The second instruction came after people became aware of what was happening on the Island of Utøya that instruction was - Do Not Call people on the island they are trying to hide from the gunman and the ring tone will give away their positions (Obviously the youngsters from the island had called the police/home - remember on the face of it it was a policemen shooting at them - to call for help, This would have taken time)

6: "The minute the first shot rang out and the first staffer or kid was able to run to the woods the police would have been called."

As far as his victims were concerned it was a "policeman" doing the shooting, but I would have thought that in the circumstances (All attending the rally having been called together, then the shooting started) As soon as the first shot rang out, don't know about you Mary but I would be running like hell for cover - Not making bloody phone calls - That would come after I had outpaced my attacker and found a place to hide. But yes we can assume that calls were made, BUT not the instant the shooting started (first call to police received at 17:27hrs).

7: "If the news of the Oslo shooting was on the radio already, and you were in a camp nearby, would you not gather the campers, account for them, ..if for no other reason than some would have relatives...maybe it all happened almost simultaneously and I will be checking on that."


There was NO SHOOTING in Oslo - In Oslo a very large home made bomb had just gone off....You are in a camp on an island 60 kilometers away. As the Camp was a "political" event and Government Offices had just been destroyed by an explosion - no mention of a bomb yet - I dare say that people were gathered round attempting to find out what might have happened. A former Arbeiderpartiet Prime Minister of Norway Gro Harlem Bruntland has just left the Camp after having addressed the rally (She apparently was the gunman's real target on the Island) The next thing you know is that a "police officer" has arrived to brief everybody on the situation. He has presented himself to the officials on the shore and has been cleared to go over to the Island.


8: "OK..so you have a shooting, you have multiple phone calls...you have to get police out there. Of course theywill be focused on Oslo..but you still have citizens..parents..military..were there calls on the radio to get some boats close to the island? They said their swat helicopter was not on standby. It could be in for repairs or it could be on its way to the capital..who knows. There are other helicopters in Oslo..there was one taking photos of the shooting..can you not ask it to drop some swat people off..."


Of course they are focused on Oslo - 60 kilometers away, the nearest police presence would be in the small town of Hønefoss 30 kilometers away - it is Friday after work in the middle of the national holiday period I dare say that neither police, emergency services or hospitals were over-manned when all this kicked off. What boats? We know one tourist to the area recognised immediately the sound of automatic gunfire whilst listening to the radio and put two-and-two together and took his boat over to the island - he subsequently rescued about 30 of the youngsters - but this is not a heavily populated part of the country and it was in the middle of the holiday season and the weather was atrocious. SWAT Teams are not as common in Europe as they appear to be in the USA, neither is the automatic response to an incident to pour in masses of fire-power. As soon as it became evident what was happening on the Island both armed police (i.e. more heavily armed and protected than normal plus special forces were sent to the island) "Other helicopters taking photos of the shooting" Where did you get that from??? Certainly not on Norwegian Television - Ever heard of library footage?? Your helicopter is going to land most likely under fire on a heavily wooded island where Mary??


9: "There must have been boats on the island?"

Possibly, I dare say that there were - how do you get to them? There is only one landing jetty where those boats are secured and there is a man armed with an automatic rifle between you and the jetty, on which he has placed explosives to ambush any rescue party.

10: "Or was there a bridge?"

No bridge only a single landing stage. Controlled access to the island.

11: "Could some staff not have circled around and brought a boat to the other side?"

How would they have done that? Unlikely that "staff" would carry keys to boat engines around with them purely on spec that they might need them. The other side of the island is all cliff.

12: "It was close enough that some swam across."

Closest point from Island to shore is 500 metres in ice cold fresh water with strong currents - to many, hitting the water would not be an option.

13: "What was camp security like?"

Private/Volunteer and in Norway they would be unarmed, but there again why should they be, access to the Island was controlled on the shore and the gathering is an assembly of like-minded young people - trouble would the last thing you would expect to have to deal with. The current Crown Princess's step-brother, a policeman on vacation, was a member of the unarmed security detail on the Island and he was killed trying to tackle the gunman.

14: "Were they aware of the explosion in Oslo?"

Undoubtedly aware of an explosion, they might even by this stage have known it was a bomb

15: "What was the police force on or near the island?"

At least one off-duty policeman on the island in civilian clothes whose son was attending the rally, nearest police station would be in Hønefoss a small town about 30-40km away. The island is private property and is non residential.

16: "There have got to be some sort of explanations for why a gunman shot for one and a half hours and was not taken down."

The Island is small owned by the Worker's Youth League so no permanent residents. The gunman set his bomb in Oslo (mechanical timer most likely) walked to where he had parked his second vehicle (Silver coloured van) and drove to the landing stage on the shore of the lake - So park bomb, set timer, it's in the middle of the city so the time he parked to the time it went off could not be long, other wise the van containing the bomb may be towed. Bomb went off 15:26 say Breivik left Oslo at 15:00hrs it would take him about 20 minutes from Oslo to Sandvika, then about 45 minutes to the landing stage. He was delayed because he missed his main target on the Island. It is about 16:10hrs when he gets to the landing stage he has to change inside the van and arrive at the control point to get access to the Island so by the time he is on the Island it would be around 16:45hrs. He had to walk up to the camp site and get the youngsters assembled before he could start shooting:

"At 17:27 the local police district learned about the shooting, and two minutes later the police in Oslo were informed. By 17:38, the Norwegian central anti-terrorist unit Beredskapstroppen was dispatched to Utøya from their headquarters in Oslo. However special forces in Oslo did not have an operative helicopter available that could take them straight to the island. The only helicopter available to the Oslo-based unit was a military one parked 60 km south of the capital at Moss Airport in Rygge, and thus the special unit had to reach the location by cars. They reached the ferry crossing at 18:09, but had to wait a few minutes for a boat to take them across. They reached Utøya at 18:25. Within two minutes of police arriving the gunman surrendered."

Taking ALL factors into account the response time was fast.

Had this rally been held anywhere in rural Norway actually on the mainland or on a larger inhabited island I would have given the "gunman" about 15 maybe 20 minutes before someone would have shot him:

- Norway has a large number of registered hunters whose hunt Elg (Moose) and Red Deer, each year they have to pass a shooting test before they can hunt.

- Norway has conscription to its armed forces so there are lots of people who know how to handle guns and shoot.

- Norway has a national "Home Guard" who have to keep their weapons and ammunition at home.

No shortage of guns, no shortage of people who know how to use them - BUT not in the Utøya area.

This monster planned this attack very carefully. A "singleton" impossible to predict, hard if not impossible to detect as there will be no security leak from "his" side.

Possible recommended changes - Facebook entries - checked before they put out on the site - Oh wait a minute that would contravene US freedom of speech - can't have that now can we.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 06:43 AM

Security guards are never allowed arms in UK.
Only specialist police and military.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 06:54 AM

20/20 Hindsight's a wonderful thing. Really helpful to the victims.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 08:33 AM

With each post, mg gets a little more inarticulate, confused & bizzare. Perhaps she's off her meds?


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 09:38 AM

I got through most of the thread before realising that mg is not a person but an elaborate parody.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 01:24 PM

These are questions that have to be asked. Obviously stuff is still unfolding. People with all sorts of security credentials are asking the same questions, some of which seem foolish in retrospect.

Peter, I do not like personal abuse. Knock if off. No personal comments.

Everything I have read indicates that the police are unarmed..some say they have guns in their cars.

The fake policeman shot them...not the real one.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 02:10 PM

Norwegian Police Force & Arms:

I said before ALL Norwegian policemen are armed, they may or may not actually be carrying their weapons.

"Norwegian police do not carry firearms on a daily basis; they keep them locked down in the patrol cars, and if need arises they have to get permission by the police commissioner or someone authorized by him or her. If there is no time to contact a superior, a police officer may arm himself and anyone under his command. From 1994 to 2004 the Norwegian police fired approximately 79 shots; 48 of these were fired during the Nokas Robbery in 2004.

Type of firearms as previously stated:
H&K P30 9mm Semi-Automatic Pistol
H&K MP5 9mm Sub-machine Gun

Time the Police first heard about the incident 17:27 - Perpetrator under arrest 18:27. The shootings were taking place in a remote location in the immediate aftermath of the largest terrorist bomb ever exploded in Norway (The ONLY Terrorist Bomb exploded in Norway) with the Police and the Emergency Services at full stretch.

The specialist police squad were notified, mobilised and underway 11 minutes after first notification. They had to travel by car from Oslo - they did that journey in 31 minutes (it took Breivik over an hour, I know blue lights help, but the traffic chaos in Oslo when the Police made the trip would hinder them). Time to get onto the island and apprehend the gunman 16 minutes. Not bad.

The ONLY thing that would have prevented it, or at least reduced the slaughter would have been if someone on the island had had something to divert the gunman's attention and give him something to think about - i.e. a gun (Basically works in exactly the same way that GWB's tactic did in attacking Al-Qaeda - Take the initiative from your attacker).


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: ranger1
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 02:27 PM

Teribus, it wasn't the only terrorist bomb exploded in Norway. In 1982 another home-grown nutter set one off in the train station. I know, I was living there at the time. Fortunately no one was killed in that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 03:45 PM

I knew about the guns in the cars. To me that is a definition of unarmed, but perhaps people have other definitions. By armed I mean on the body, or perhaps in the car if the officer were in the car too.

What I do not get is that it seems shooting started at 5:10 and police only heard about it at 5:25...

Lots of kids had phones on them..they were trying to call and were not put through by phone operators who were only taking calls (now thisis what I read..I was not there and I can not analyze every bit of information myself..that is what a community is for..international of course)...about the Oslo bombing...something is wrong there..15 minutes, 15 people..someone needs to review that..and they were texting parents etc. The whole phone thing needs to be looked at..did the camp have numbers of local police? Etc...there is a 15 minut delay..OK..12 perhaps..some got away quickly I am sure..and some hid in caves...surely they called and texted..there is a breakdown in the phone response somewhere. I still want to know the boat situation..you have 500 campers it seems..?? someone confirm? Some unheard from probably on advice of lawyers staff..probably some are Olympic quality swimmers, canoists etc..a camp of 500 in an island has to have a bunch of boats.

Shore 200 300 800 meters/yards away...what was staff trained to do and what did they do?

THe only reason so many survived is because of the strong physical fitness they had..we would not be so lucky here..there are many lessons to be learned for educators in this event..mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 03:47 PM

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/breakingnews/126196763.html


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:55 PM

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903999904576470270835651248.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

One thing that surprised me..the Minister of Justice thought it was extraordinary that police interrupted their vacations. I would think it would be standard practice if your government headquarters or whatever it was blew up and teenagers were being massacred...I would expect everyone to be called back from vacation, especially the pilots if they were anywhere near.

I would also expect that they would ask for military helicopter backup, as they drove and tried to get boats. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 07:21 PM

mg maybe you should take a look at the island for yourself.

"One thing that surprised me..the Minister of Justice thought it was extraordinary that police interrupted their vacations. I would think it would be standard practice if your government headquarters or whatever it was blew up and teenagers were being massacred...I would expect everyone to be called back from vacation, especially the pilots if they were anywhere near." - mg

Do you read the articles you supply links for??

The article states this:

"Norwegian Justice Minister Knut Storberget praised the police after meeting with officials Tuesday, commending their bravery and efforts after Friday's attacks, the worst peacetime atrocity in Norway. "They have worked far more than we can demand from anyone. Police throughout Norway HAVE interrupted their vacations and reported to work, and they are still at work now," Mr. Storberget said."

"I would also expect that they would ask for military helicopter backup, as they drove and tried to get boats." - mg

Article states:

1: "Oslo Police Chief Johan Fredriksen, speaking at a press conference Tuesday, said the issue of the helicopter had been "blown completely out of proportion," explaining that the availability was dependent on weather conditions and personnel."

Weather up by the Island was atrocious check out the film coverage of it - HINT - July all those people running around in foul-weather gear.

2: "A police spokeswoman said the helicopter was used only for surveillance, documentation and search operations and couldn't have been used to land officers on the island even if the crew had been available. "We could've also asked the armed forces to use one of their helicopters, but that would take longer to arrange and to get it to Oslo," the spokeswoman said."

So the Police Helicopter was not suitable to land armed officers on the island - I will take their word for it.

I asked you before Mary - Where would you have landed your helicopter? Take a good long hard look at the satellite pictures of the island. Hard enough to do at the best of times without adding the prospect of landing under fire from someone with a automatic weapon.

"Lots of kids had phones on them..they were trying to call and were not put through by phone operators who were only taking calls (now thisis what I read..I was not there and I can not analyze every bit of information myself..that is what a community is for..international of course)...about the Oslo bombing...something is wrong there..15 minutes, 15 people..someone needs to review that..and they were texting parents etc." - mg

Your mobile phone goes through an operator does it?? Mine doesn't. Emergency numbers to call in Norway are as follows:

"In the event of an emergency, please call:

110 - Fire
112 - Police
911 - Police (only from cellular phones)
113 - Ambulance
120 - Emergency at open sea"

So unless the 5/600 youngsters who were on that island actually knew the land line number of either the Hønefoss Police Station (unlikely) or of any local Lensmann, or the Police station In Sandvika or Oslo what would they get phoning 112 or 911 last Friday at about 17:15??? Is it at all possible that those lines might have been busy??

The likely chain that may be revealed was that children ran for cover at first shots which you claim started at 17:10hrs. If someone is about to shoot you Mary how far and how long do you run for before you stop to call it in? I would give that about 5 minutes to run and find cover (17:15).

Child is smart enough to know not to talk as talking will attract attention so they text home, they text their parents, who in turn telephone their local police stations who in turn contact police in Hønefoss and in Oslo by internal lines or comms systems.

Now does 10 minutes seem an inordinately long time for that process to you?? The step in that chain that would take longest would be the first two the texting to the parents and the parents reaction time. If anybody called me to get in touch with the police I would automatically go to 911 or 112, I wouldn't get through either so I would then have to look up the number of my local police station and call them. Once I'd got through then things would happen quickly - AND THEY DID.

"did the camp have numbers of local police" - No it did not, the island is small and no-one lives there permanently so why should ther be local police there. As far as I am aware the only policemen on the island was an off-duty officer who was attending the camp with his son - He was shot and killed attempting to tackle the gunman.

"I still want to know the boat situation..you have 500 campers it seems..?? someone confirm? Some unheard from probably on advice of lawyers staff..probably some are Olympic quality swimmers, canoists etc..a camp of 500 in an island has to have a bunch of boats."

These teenagers have been invited to the Island to attend a political rally, so you would pack them off with a boat each?? What the hell do you think this was like a "summer camp" in the USA?? These kids were there for a week-end of political discussion, they had just been addressed by one very famous ex-Prime Minister of Norway and were expecting to hear the current Prime Minister the following day - How common is it for the POTUS to attend political rallies for teenagers and address them? Would you expect the kids to blow him off to go play in a boat??

I think I saw a maximum number of four boats on the water from the news footage.

Some children ran fully clothed into ice cold FRESH WATER, ever heard of "cold water shock" it will kill you in 5 to 10 minutes, air temperature does not matter. Fresh water is less buoyant than salt water your clothes will pull you under in fresh water.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 07:56 PM

Hope this is not a duplicate because I sent something but don't see it.

1. Yes, I read..quickly usually and not as thoroughly as I would like
2. I see that they have interrupted their vacations. I would expect no less from security people when their government has been attacked and their children are being massacred.
3. Availability of helicopters..well, a private one was flying. Pictures I have seen did not show foul weather gear on civilians waiting on the other side. Weather changes fast there I am sure. They kept saying a helicopter was not operational. Others say that was because pilots, plural, were on vacation. For a swat team? Or maybe it was not a swat helicopter. But they were saying at first they decided not to take helicopter because it was too far away. BUt then they were saying that it didn't carry teams anyway and was only for surveillance. This is Norway, not Somalia. They have money from North Sea gas etc. Lack of some stuff in a prosperous country is hard to understand.

4. If I call 911 or whatever they did..I get a person. They called and got a person, or so I have read. Persons told them they could not take their calls because of Oslo bombing. This was 2 hours after bombing..if they were short of personnel should have called in others. Perhaps equipment could not handle..but no, because they got through to persons who turned them away.

5. Helicopters do not have to land. People might have to jump, under fire, with full gear. Hopefully their weapons are as powerful as the madman's. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,Peter K sans cookie
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 09:03 PM

'that is what a community is for'...'someone confirm'... '200 300 800 yards/metres'...'or whatever'...
Rarely have i seen such determined indolence, and never at all when the subject was obviously of concern to the writer. And not even a word of thanks to Teribus for so painstakingly setting out what is there for all of us to read.
If there is a lesson to be learned, it is that all governments should have mg's phone number to hand, so that she can be called on to mastermind the response to any future disaster.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 10:04 PM

"200 300 800 yards/metres"

Does the writer have any idea of how far even 200 metres/yards is? Swimming is not like running in a mad dash for 600 feet. Four times (!) that length is a L O N G slog, calling for more than a tossed off number.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 10:11 PM

Like I said- she's off her meds. Ignore hger.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mg
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 10:53 PM

Please help me find out the distance officially..from a mutually agreed upon point to another maup. I have been searching. I have seen many numbers..probably not all referring to the same points. Originally they were sayin 300 meters..and as low as 200 and as high as 800. Who knows the exact answer? Please give it.

As for it not being a traditionally styled summer camp, it has been described that way in everything I have read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/world/europe/24island.html?_r=2

If it was not a traditional camp, it is odd that the first time I have heard it was not was a posting here. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mg
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 11:07 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pt6-XCAVc8

Here is a you tube video. Someone asked about places for helicopters to land..looks like lots of places to me, including pavement. Lots of clearing surrounded by lots of trees.

I do not share his assessment of the weather from looking at this. I see people in shorts and t-shirts, as well as light raingear..it looked like light rainful, not some terrible weather that would impeded anything..boats were skimming right through the water, which was calm. Air looked calm, perhaps a bit of rain or drizzle.

This has to be pieced together with people of good intentin. Obviously personal abuse will stop many conversations. There is at least one person here I will not read for that reason. THese questions are being asked, and as I have said, by high level people in various places. If you let fear of being called a fool stop you from what really needs to be done you have given up too easily. And future lives are at stake, but the more people who raise these questions, the better security is going to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Songwronger
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 11:30 PM

Is it true that the security people on the island weren't armed? Norway has a robust gun culture, so why would the security personnel not be armed?

Another slaughter in a gun-free zone?


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mg
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 12:05 AM

Apparently there was one part-time security person, ex police officer or perhaps moonlighting. He is said to be the stepbrother of the Princess and said to have a 10 year old son he protected.

A woman, variously described as one of the camp leaders, a museum person, and an accountant, had suspicions about shooter while talking to him on the ferry, where he was visibly armed and dragging some sort of suitcase. She ran to a house on the island to get the security person. He is said to have followed them and shot them both.

There is question as to whether he took the official ferry or some other boat related to the camp.

I have read he..security person.. was unarmed. Many people say that all officers are unarmed but have weapons in their cars and can get them..hopefully quickly. To me unarmed means nothing on the person or close at hand, but others have other definitions. You would think that everyone would be told to arm themselves after the Oslo explosion.

I have also just read that there were large numbers of ambulances and medical people on the shore, but also that police asked for volunteers among the youth at the camp to help with the wounded. You would think that as soon as the coast is clear, and you never know for sure that it is, but the main shooter gave up easily...they would ask for the flotilla of boats to bring over EMTs as quickly as possible and not wait for treatment after a chilling boat ride, and not further traumatize the youth. It was a very short ride over.

There are so many mysteries here and questions. Of course there is confusion and we won't know the exact distance from one shore to another for awhile, unless someone finds an official answer, which of course will be different between every two points.\

And begging your pardon, Ms. E...but I did not toss off the number. I have seen many numbers given by fairly reputable sources. It is an irregular island and unless people agree on where they are measuring from and to, an exact number is not possible to give. Please educate me if you know the correct number. Lots of places have just said several hundred meters. It was close enough for some swimmers to make it across I believe, despite freezing cold water..but many were picked up by boats from the shore. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 04:21 AM

You would think that everyone would be told to arm themselves after the Oslo explosion.

No you wouldn't. Not a single person in their right mind would think so. It's all hindsight, hindsight and paranoid 'let's arm and everything will be allright' thinking.



Article : Let's not patronise Norway


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Penny S.
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 04:38 AM

I would not have been able to swim that distance at that age, even the shortest estimate. The lake looks like a glacial lake, which would be very deep. Judging by the warnings given round where I live about swimming in chalk quarry lakes, which are similarly deep with steep drops from close to the edge, there could be strong wind driven down currents, as well as very cold water - and here the cold is stressed even in summer, even in relatively small bodies of water. In that large body, that far north and this early in the summer, currents and temperature would be more severe. People were clothed, and this would have made sinking more likely. They were already in shock, and that would affect their temperature control and their ability to swim effectively.
I spent my teens in Dover, where in the harbour was moored a raft reputed to be used for testing paint. It looked close enough to swim to. It wasn't, and people regularly got into trouble trying to. Some really strong swimmers could do it - the head of the local girls' grammar school could, and back - but even the most show-off teeangers knew not to try. The distance to the island looks to be of the same order.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 06:03 AM

God save us from amateur security 'experts', especially those from the other side of the world who have no understanding of the cultures, social structures and geographical factors of European countries, and whose 'expertise' seems to be a mixture of obsession and hysteria in equal measures.

'Leave it to the real experts' would be a better plan.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 06:22 AM

Norway and the United States are very different countries. That appears to be something that mg finds hard to appreciate.

No doubt it will turn out that there were things that could have been done better in this unprecedented tragedy. Working out what those might be is something that can only be done by people who have some specific and detailed knowledge, which none of us have, even if we are many thousands of miles distant, living in a totally different society.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 07:03 AM

That's a thoughtful article at the end of Peter Laban's link, presenting a point of view that would be beyond mg's comprehension, and perhaps beyond the comprehension of many other Americans. If just a little bit of such thinking had informed the response to 9/11, America might have retained the worldwide support it had in the immediate aftermath and the world would be a happier place.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 09:01 AM

mg, I don't agree with many of your points. I do admire how you have handled the condescension an insults. You are patient and kind.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 09:24 AM

I'd echo that last comment by Jack.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 10:45 AM

To Peter Laban thanks for the link to that article - wonders will never cease an article written by Simon Jenkins where I actually agree with him.

No mg does not understand the massive differences between the USA and the countries of Europe and Scandinavia. She would also help her cause and save herself a great deal of time were she to just "google" up a map of the Island in question, simple enough. Each map displays a scale from which the distance between the island of Utøya and the lake shore can be extrapolated. The island of Utøya is located at the entrance to the part of the lake known as Holsfjorden this is the deepest part of Tyrifjord and it is some 330 metres deep.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 01:43 PM

I'm told that this is a basic difference between Americans and Europeans...except that I tend to share the European perspective. When Americans encounter a situation like this, their response is to get more guns and tighter security. Europeans, on the other hand, call for tighter restrictions on guns.

But I know many Americans who, like me, think that civilians have no business owning or using guns for anything other than hunting. The idea of having a gun "for protection" is abhorrent to us.

The US is an armed country, despite the fact that many of us won't own guns. But there is a feeling here, that there are weapons present even when we can't see them. We adjust our lives accordingly and take necessary precautions. I think I prefer the European idea of living where one expects there won't be guns. There will, of course, be exceptional situations like this one in Norway; but most times I think it would be better not to be living in a gun culture.

And some of my neighbors would say my disdain for guns is un-American, and if I hate guns so much and like socialized medicine so much, I should move to Europe.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 01:59 PM

>>And some of my neighbors would say my disdain for guns is un-American, and if I hate guns so much and like socialized medicine so much, I should move to Europe.<<

This is an unintended consequence of Freedom of speech. It protects the right of the ignorant and unpatriotic to speech.

What do these idiots think that "Give me Liberty, or give me Death! means? Why do they think the country was founded in the first place? To save a few pennies in taxes? It is not about guns. It never was. It was about freedom. Freedom and democracy. An Amish has just as much right to be here as one of those flag waving, mega church, follow Christ in name only, prosperity gospel, cowardly, ignorant, unpatriotic douche suckers.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 02:00 PM

Of course there is condescension and insults. THat is how many people get their pleasure. In the meantime, these exact questions have been asked by enough people that their is going to be a special investigation, and I hope it includes the call center for their "911."

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/world/announces+Norway+massacre+probe/5164781/story.html

Read how a father received a message from his daughter, called the police and was told to have the youth call the police. Unfortunately, some did and they were turned away by the operators saying that they were only taking calls relating to Oslo bombings. Note..it was not an overloaded cell phone or rotary phone system. The calls got in.

I fail to see hysteria here. I see what should be done after every disaster..that is people outside the area jumping in and looking at it from every angle. There will be other situations in the world. Everything should be scrutinized. Some countries have almost no resources and it is hard to say what should have been done. Here lots of people are pointing out minute by minute, and each minute equals one teenager shot, where lives could have been saved, and could be in the future.

My computer is not doing well on maps and I do not have unlimited time...I am not obsessed about how far it was..I have read a number of distances..most professional journalists are saying several hundred meters. I have a very strong interest in not leaving people to die frankly, and I wonder what would be wrong with that..I don't see how that would change between cultures frankly..there are some universal truths, which to me would include speed of response in a situation and preplanning for many eventualities in a world of terror and never ever saying this could not happen here. And analyzing every step of the process where every minute saved a life could have been saved. Sorry of some of you don't agree with that. It seems being nasty takes priorty. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 02:15 PM

by everyong arming themselves, it obvisouly in context refers to the police officers who might have them in their cars but not on their persons.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 02:31 PM

I don't get this thing about not knowing other cultures etc. Everyone in every disaster should welcome contributions from other countries..eventually..although perceived criticism..and that is really not what this is although it might look that way..would not always be appreciated..contributions could include physical help as in earthquakes, financial help, intel help, suggestions as to how things were done in similar disasters with good results..

It is of course very hard to say what a country with no resources to speak of should do. If North Korea has a tsunami we will not have the same responses as when Japan did. We certainly were criticized rightfully over Katrina response and people left on roofs to bake in the sun for days when a flotilla of boats was ready to go and rescue them and was kept out..and yes..some were actual swiftboaters.

A country, especially a very closed country, can not criticize from within, especially as citizens wait for relief. There will also be codes of silence and exhortations that this is not the time and there will be a full investigation. But the time is as quickly as possible and from as many sources as possible and then the experts can sift through and separate the wheat from the chaff. Some of what looks like chaff could be of extreme importance though. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,PK still sans cookie
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 03:30 PM

...'that doesn't change between cultures...' It doesn't, mg. But if you read Peter Laban's link and you won't fail to see there IS a gulf between your culture and mine. And please give some consideration to Joe's excellent post.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 04:28 PM

Joe hits the nail on the head, but there's something at the root of the gun culture: American culture seems to be regulated by fear and the feeling there's a constant need to defend oneself.

Life as I know it, is not about constant fear, fear of 'the bad guys', fear of scammers, fear of germs, fear of life itself almost. Life here is lived without the feeling that every person is 'out to get you'. It's a different state of mind altogether.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 05:33 PM

Of course sometimes someone is out to get you. But the chances are anticipating that won't actually make you any safer, just unhappier.

When you let the cat in at night, there might indeed be a man-eating tiger in the garden waiting for you. But...


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 05:44 PM

I would throw the cat at the man-eating tiger and escape unharmed. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 08:48 PM

"What do these idiots think that "Give me Liberty, or give me Death! means? Why do they think the country was founded in the first place? To save a few pennies in taxes? It is not about guns. It never was. It was about freedom. Freedom and democracy."

Bullshit your "give me liberty of give me death" was a trumped up slogan based upon Sweet Fuck All covering a land grab. The land being grabbed being owned by the indigenous tribes and guaranteed by a Treaty made in 1754 with the British Government of the time in recognition of the assistance rendered by those Indian tribes in defeating the French.

To put into simple terms that you might understand Jack - You lot grabbed and stole land from the indigenous tribes exactly as you accuse the Israelis of stealing land from the Palestinians - Both North and South of the US and Canadian borders.

Care to tell me what the word hypocrite means Jack (Who may or may not be a legal jerkwad, or illegal jerkwad - something Jack has yet to clarify)


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 09:08 PM

"hypocrite means" - you are very jealous
Your daddy was not onena de founding fellas.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

The cream rises to the top
The rest is left to molder and rot.
Some call it curds
Others call it whey
Some never invest - waiting for the government way.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 09:37 PM

By God mg you do witter on..... and that is exactly what it is that you are doing - wittering on and not making the slightest effort to realise what the situation is.

Now go away and do some real bloody research.... HINT It takes a bit of work and effort but please try, before you criticise what the emergency services did achieve in very trying times and under exceptional circumstances.

In doing so please acknowledge that not everything in life is always perfect and it never ever will be. Do not compare what happened in Norway last Friday to anything whatsoever to do with Hurricane Katrina where most of the American population and MSM where more intent on kicking your President and his administration than nailing the Mayor of New Orleans who should have reacted a damn sight quicker than he did.

So you are concerned about minutes? Where one minute elapsed time is represented by one dead child? Fair enough arm each child so that the child can kill the person attacking them - Happy now?? Problem solved the good old American way??

Get this through your thick skull (I say that because you have undoubtedly proved that you are asking questions the answers to which are readily available yet you choose to ingnore information you receive) such an occurence has NEVER happened in Norway before - you sitting fat dumb and happy over there in the good ol' US of A chipping in with your ill-informed criticism. You are doing no bloody good at all. Recognise one thing and recognise it well this was an extremely well planned attack perpetrated by one single person who had thought about this and planned this over the course of NINE YEARS. He had no accomplices, there were no traces, his security was faultless - totally undetectable - In the US you had as much probability as stopping Timothy McVeigh - You didn't

Go away leave this alone. THE WHOLE OF NORWAY is mourning what has happened - EVERYONE IN NORWAY is mourning what has happened, native Norwegian and Immigrant alike - we do not need your concern or your bloody stupid questions and criticisms. The inquiry called by Jens Stoltenberg will provide all those answers. Basically it has nothing whatsoever to do with you, you have been given information and you have chosen to ignore it.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 10:17 PM

"You lot grabbed and stole land from the indigenous tribes"
Teribus

Whoa. In the first place Jack the Sailor was not born in the US but adopted it. Secondly, it was YOU lot who did the grabbing and treaty breaking. The US did not yet have its freedom from the English.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mg
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 11:03 PM

well, obviously I am making an effort to understand the situation, but somehow I shouldn't be. Everything in the world affects every last one of us. There are crazy people all over the world and they do awful things. We all have to do our parts to point out sometimes obvious and sometimes subtle security weaknesses or we will all suffer. It is too late for these kids, but might not too late for the next batch. Collective questions and answers in public forums are bringing things to people's attention. Without questions, very public questions, I doubt there would have been an inquiry. It would have been written off as something that has never happened here and who could have predicted it. We all have to realize those days are over and start predicting stuff and make sure that systems are in place for indiginous or external threats to be met...we know the consequences of not doing this..they were on the beach. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mg
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 11:27 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/07/27/norway.breivik.chronology/

good report with good click to heroic boat driver who got right up to the island and rescued 50 kids in 3 trips..first I had heard someone made it all the way to the island. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 03:05 AM

We all have to realize those days are over and start predicting stuff

This attitude is exactly the problem. We can 't predict stuff. Norway could spend a fortune guarding against a repeat of last week's episode, but that would merely guarantee that the next nutter who wants to make an impact will do it a different way.

The US may have done enough to ensure that there will never be another 9/11, but in terms of preventing another spectacular outrage, that's just a gesture. The next time will probably not involve aircraft at all. It could be a nuclear device in one of the two-three million containers that arrive, unsearched, on the US western seaboard every day. So spend half an hour searching each container. What next, mg?

Of course, rather than screwing up life for everyone by guarding against what will probably never happen, we could simply take a more realistic attitude to risk. Which is why I was always happy for my daughter to trust strangers, even though one in every few million was probably a paedophile. (She survived.)


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 03:51 AM

'well, obviously I am making an effort to understand the situation, but somehow I shouldn't be'

I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to understand the situation but what is not helpful and at times gravely irritating are the assumptions and judgements you make while doing so. Little inserts like 'God help us' when unarmed adults/guards in a youth camp are mentioned show that you come at this from a mind-set that fails, refuses maybe, to understand the circumstances of the society in which the situation developed and you are seemingly not trying to obtain any understanding of that different mindset. You just charge forward, tunnel vision, if there's a thing people on this thread feel you shouldn't, that's probably it.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 03:54 AM

"Whoa. In the first place Jack the Sailor was not born in the US but adopted it. Secondly, it was YOU lot who did the grabbing and treaty breaking." - Ebbie

I think that the historical evidence is pretty much on my side. The British Government of the day tended to honour it's treaty obligations to the native tribes who had allied themselves with the British against the French in 1754.

It was the settlers and colonists that wanted those treaties broken so that they could expand by taking "Indian" land.

Question for you Ebbie - in the War of 1812 whose side did the Indians of the five nations fight on? Answer they fought for the British. Now why would they do that if what you say was true? Because with the British their land was safe.

Always love the way that when chattering away about the War of Independence it was The Americans that won the war and defeated The British but when it comes to anything negative it was British Settlers and Colonists who robbed the Indians of their land.

Explore and take a look at how the expansion into the Ohio and Wabash Basin occured.

Your War of Independence and the War of 1812 had bugger all to do with "Taxation"; "Representation" or "Liberty and Death" all such pretexts were simply mendacious excuses to cover a monstrous act of theft driven by greed. The precedent set was continued with from 1776 onwards until you reached the Pacific Ocean - or was all that our fault too?


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 04:38 AM

I live in a rural area, in the Sierra Nevada foothills of California. I'm near a major highway, so I guess I could expect a sheriff's deputy or an ambulance to arrive in 45 minutes if I called. My friend Debby lives 20 to 30 minutes up the hill, but I still call her a neighbor. I'd bet she'd wait an hour and 15 minutes for a deputy or an ambulance.

That's the price you pay for living in the country - but then, crime doesn't happen here very often. Who'd dream that such a terrible crime would happen at a summer camp on an island? We certainly had no thought of that at the rural Wisconsin camps where I worked during college - and we never, ever saw police officers. If a kid had to go to the hospital, we took him - it took too long to wait for an ambulance. That's the reality of not living in the city.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 05:01 AM

Very true Joe. When we moved here a neighbour told us 'we get a heart attack only once here'.

In connection with the present subject I couldn't help thinking of the Aran islands, islands I can see if the day is clear enough. There are no guards on the two smaller islands, they are served by the guards on Inish Mór, two during summer, one during winter I believe. Essentially there is no police presence on the two smaller islands at all and that probably holds true for all islands off the Irish coast. Try huffing and puffing at the lack of armed security at the Irish language colleges there.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 07:21 AM

In fairness to Mary, it must be difficult, when you live in a country where the police will pick up anybody they find taking a stroll late in the evening and deliver them home for their own safety, to understand that in most of Europe it is usually safe to do this if one sticks to well lit streets.

Listening to the responses of Norwegian citizens since the attack, one thing is clear.

They are determined that this will not engender a culture of fear and paranoia in one of the World's most peaceful countries.

In other words, you will NOT see armed police on the street corners, and you will NOT see any increase in personal weapons.

Norwegians will get on with their lives as before, and in the background some changes will be made in the ease of acquiring bomb making materials and guns.

The reason why the USA needs police with guns is precisely because too many US citizens have guns, and please don't give me that old bullshit about the provision of an armed militia to protect against a rogue government. G W Bush is still alive, so that dog won't hunt.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 07:26 AM

Teribus

I am starting to think you believe this crap.

Here are a couple of simple facts.

I have never oppressed a native person. I am far too young to have made that choice.

My family came to Newfoundland after the genocide of the Beothic people was a done deal. So I could not accept responsibility for those actions even if I wanted to.

I like to think that I would have tried to prevent a lot of the violence on the native people. But I don't know. I'll never have that choice. What is done is done. But I do have a choice about Israel.

Israel is doing what it is doing now. With my tax money. That gives me a responsibility to object. If I don't object. I am complicit.

One of the things that concerns me the most about Zionists is that they cannot win. Demographics will beat them. Economics will beat them. As fear of the past slips into the past and people become more enlightened and less superstitious. The good, the humanity and the education level of the Jewish people will beat them.

All of that has zero to do with a nut job killing children in Norway. If you are civilized and sensible you will not conflate the two because if you make the connection between what he has done an what you see as excessive immigration, you excuse and justify what he has done. Civilized people cannot excuse what he has done. Sensible people would not excuse it.

Are you sensible and civilized? If so, please raise your concerns about Norway's immigration in another context.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 07:32 AM

"In fairness to Mary, it must be difficult, when you live in a country where the police will pick up anybody they find taking a stroll late in the evening and deliver them home for their own safety"

Will you all please give the sarcasm a rest.

We get it. You all think Mary is stupid and you all think yourselves very clever.

Mary is right about one thing.
Of course Norway will reexamine their security protocol. They will address their security concerns. They will make it all but impossible for the same thing to happen again. Hopefully the will do with without changing the way they live.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 07:47 AM

Get a grip Jack ....As far as I can see there is not one single person attempting to excuse the crime...anyone doing so would be as deranged as the perpetrator.

Teribus has written alot of good and informative stuff on this thread, he obviously knows what he is talking about, and smear tactics wont change that.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 07:50 AM

Get a grip yourself. Take your bigotry elsewhere. It is not appropriate here.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 08:02 AM

They will make it all but impossible for the same thing to happen again.

The chances of it happening again are close to nil no matter what they do. In particular, if they do nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 08:05 AM

Of course you are right Jack. On the other hand.

If they have continue to have such politically charged events with such a small amount of security, I would be surprised.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 08:38 AM

They are determined that this will not engender a culture of fear and paranoia...

Unlike the culture of fear and paranoia- stoked at every opportunity by the TeaBaggers & fundagelicals - that the U.S. is currently in the grip of.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 08:46 AM

"All of that has zero to do with a nut job killing children in Norway. If you are civilized and sensible you will not conflate the two because if you make the connection between what he has done an what you see as excessive immigration, you excuse and justify what he has done. Civilized people cannot excuse what he has done. Sensible people would not excuse it.

Are you sensible and civilized? If so, please raise your concerns about Norway's immigration in another context."


"if you make the connection between what he has done an what you see as excessive immigration, you excuse and justify what he has done."??

A number of points Jack that I will put as simply as I can.

1: Breivik himself stated that the Norwegian Government's immigration policies were part of the reason he carried his attack AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT - Note against the Government not against any immigrant.

2: I have no view at all that could be considered anti-immigrant with respect to Norway. It would be very hard for me to justify such a view seeing as quite a few years ago now I used to be what you could term as "an immigrant to Norway" (unlike you I have actually spent a great deal of time in the country)

3: At no time at all have I ever attempted to either justify of excuse what this monster did - In fact quite the reverse.

You post - "Get a grip yourself. Take your bigotry elsewhere. It is not appropriate here." - addressed to Akenaton??

Taking the noun bigot to mean - a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

It would appear that you are the only bigot posting to this thread.

"If they have continue to have such politically charged events with such a small amount of security, I would be surprised."

"such politically charged events" - A youth rally?? The Prime Minister of Norway Jens Stoltenberg more or less promised the country that this incident would not rob the country of the slightest vestige of it's democracy or deny any branch of his Party the use of, and freedom to enjoy, the facilities on Utøya. A memorial will be erected there within the next 12 months and in all probability it will be unveiled when the Youth Movement of the AUP reconvene to hold there Rally there next year.

Did the attacks of 7/7 stop people using buses or the Underground? No they bloody well did not. The people of Norway will not be cowed by the actions of a single maniac.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 08:57 AM

""Will you all please give the sarcasm a rest.

We get it. You all think Mary is stupid and you all think yourselves very clever.
""

Well done Jack! You pick the only person who wasn't being sarcastic to attack.

My point was the precise opposite of your misinterpretation, since I made a genuine attempt to say that Mary was looking at this from a different cultural perspective, and far from being stupid, was trying her best to understand that difference.

I don't think myself very clever at all, but I do read what people are actually saying before sticking my foot in my mouth.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 09:00 AM

"In fairness to Mary, it must be difficult, when you live in a country where the police will pick up anybody they find taking a stroll late in the evening and deliver them home for their own safety"

You were serious when you said this?


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Megan L
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 09:05 AM

I am not norwegian, I do not live in Norway, therefore i will leave Norwegians to deal with Norwegian issues. Deal with the weeds in your own garden before telling your neighbour how to do his garden.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 09:11 AM

I think the weeds in the garden is bigotry on the Mudcat such as introducing a gross exaggeration and distortion of Muslim immigration in Norway to a thread about and anti-Muslim killer of children.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 11:28 AM

Don T, I didn't take what you said as sarcasm but just a little broad. Police in the US do not pick up someone walking alone and deliver them anywhere. Not in my experience.

I have had a police car stop and ask me if I was OK. I have had the cop tell me that he'll keep an eye out for my return. I have never been threatened by them in any way but I have also never been told I couldn't/shouldn't walk there.

I have had a cop ask me if I was being harassed by another pedestrian and being assured that I could handle myself went on his way.

Ebbie, who now lives in an area where people/women walk alone any hour of the day or night but lived also in Oregon, Michigan and Virginia where she was more circumspect.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 12:35 PM

The bigotry being displayed on this thread is yours and yours alone Jack.

The information relating to the immigrant population in Oslo was introduced to explain why the Norwegian authorities immediately after the explosion were specifically emphasising that they did not know who was responsible.

I passed on what was heard in one interview in which what the interviewee said was not made perfectly clear.

This you leapt on and worried like a dog with a rag. You write much but say very little.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 03:28 PM

OK Teribus


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 03:47 PM

Police in the US do not pick up someone walking alone and deliver them anywhere.

Unless its a Black person walking in a White neighborhood, that is. And in that case, they ususlly deliver 'em to the police station.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 10:58 PM

Police in the US do not pick up someone walking alone and deliver them anywhere.

It happened often when I was growing up in rural Wisconsin. The cops thought it their job to know all the kids, and to keep them out of trouble by giving them friendly attention. It was a nice way to grow up. I have the impression that still exists in Scandinavia - and probably also in places in the U.S. with Scandinavian roots like Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, and the Dakotas.


Enah, hey?


-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 11:07 PM

"Unless its a Black person walking in a White neighborhood, that is. And in that case, they ususlly deliver 'em to the police station." Greg F


And you know thqt, Greg, how? We hear only about the ones it happens to.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 11:21 PM

Oh, Teribus -

I meant to say something about your comments about Americans and their mistreatment of Native Americans. You're right - to a point. But most people who are Americans now, are people of lower-class European roots who came much later that those who decimated the American Indians.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 02:37 AM

My point, Joe O, was that the roots of the Native American decimation began with non-native born people in the new world. They were primarily English. Perhaps they taught the next generations too well.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 07:51 AM

Again, though my ancestors were not involved, for reasons explained, we are not not responsible for what our forefathers did. We are responsible for what we do now.

Does anyone disagree with this?


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 08:04 AM

And you know that, Greg, how? We hear only about the ones it happens to.

I'm confused. You admit that it happens. Yet you question my knowledge that it happens? Perhaps I know from personal experience?

Guess you haven't been paying attention for the last 30 years of news reports?

I'm sure if Azizi had not been driven off this forum, she would be happy to educate you further.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 10:04 AM

My wife and I were the first non-African Americans in this neighborhood. I don't know of any "white neighborhoods" in this area. But there are gated communities. I wouldn't recommend that any kid go and just walk around there but everywhere else they are more or less left alone unless they are wearing gang or prison style clothes and not otherwise acting suspiciously.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 12:00 PM

Greg F, I am not challenging the data. I thought you might accept that there may be some Black persons who have not had that experience.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 01:21 PM

I thought you might accept that there may be some Black persons who have not had that experience.

Of course I accept that some have not. But way to many, and likely more, have.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 02:31 PM

I fully agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 02:39 PM

If you were saying that young people are being hauled off to jail just for being black. I would dispute that. If you are saying that socioeconomically Blacks are more likely to display the behaviors that would cause them to be dragged off to jail, I don't know.

Do you think that cop had the problem with the Boston cop because he was black or because he acted like he had a chip on his shoulder? Its sometimes difficult to tell.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 06:52 PM

Jack: You're not familiar with the offense of Walking While Black.

Guess you've never heard of the offense of "Drivilg while Black" either?

Do you think that cop had the problem with the Boston cop because he was black or because he acted like he had a chip on his shoulder

Both. And this sort of thing is hardly an uncommon occurrence.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:03 AM

Greg, Have you heard of 50 years, of protests and lawsuits?

In the part of Wilmington NC where I live, most of the Police I see are African American. Most of the people hauled away are young African Americans. You have your speculations about the causes. I have mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:09 AM

You have your speculations...

Hate to disagree, Jack, but I wish they WERE "speculations".

Unfortunately, they're provable, documented, current fact, even after
"50 years, of protests and lawsuits".

Your anecdotal evidence can't necessarily be applied universally to the entire country.

QUERY: What's the ratio of Black to White residents where you live?


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:14 AM

"anecdotal evidence" I do not have anecdotal evidence I have my own observations.

Interesting phrase "anecdotal evidence". Do you have something other than anecdotal evidence?


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 01:56 PM

As I just tweeted on #BBCSML, it's worth noting that many peaceful people have genuine concerns re economic/capitalist immigration.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: BTNG
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 02:45 PM

"As I just tweeted on #BBCSML, it's worth noting that many peaceful people have genuine concerns re economic/capitalist immigration"

aye people using a truly tragic event to further their rather questionable political, economic and social views.

'appens all the time, dun it?


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 02:47 PM

That is perhaps true. But those concerns do not have a place in a civilized conversation about this action. Any fruit of these murders is tainted. Any action or condemnation of the intended victims, whether Muslim immigrant or Norwegian government worker or liberal protesting child is corrupted.

I am not asking you to not discuss these things. I am saying that you should discuss them on a separate thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 12:32 PM

Guns do kill people, particularly religious guns, fanatical guns, and the Synecdoche does work here. The only way to address this issue is to determine that there are Christian terrorists in the world and they have to be watched as equally as Islamic terrorists or Jewish terrorists.

There is no security unless we understand this aberration.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 01:00 PM

anecdotal evidence, Noun
        1. information obtained from personal accounts, examples, and observations. Usually not considered scientifically valid but may indicate areas for further investigation and research.
        2. A limited selection of examples which may support or refute an argument, but which are not supported by scientific or statistical analysis.


The evidence I have, Jack, is not anecdotal, but comes from the statements of the Black folks involved, court cases, investigations into police misconduct, and substantiated reports in the media since about 1965 or so.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 01:50 PM

On weaponry - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#100


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: BTNG
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 05:15 PM

mediocre doggerel, Walkaboutsverse, but it hardly addresses the issues, not that I can see, anyway

'appens all the time, dun it?


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 05:23 PM

Christian terrorists??.....Surely not, Christians should define themselves as non aggresive.

Do you mean the Norwegian? I dont think he was motivated by Christian belief......politics or psychosis....they usually go together.

Or do you just mean terrorists who happen to be brought up as Christians?

Muslim terrorism is something completely different.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: BTNG
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 05:31 PM

Regardless of who commits it, terrorism is terrorism and extremists are extremists,
I don't care what damned religion they practice!

so enough with the casting of stones!!

'appens all the time, though, dunnit?


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 05:47 PM

Extremist....hmmm would you like to define that?


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: BTNG
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 06:06 PM

"Extremist....hmmm would you like to define that?"

Certainly!!

noun:

a person who favours or resorts to immoderate, uncompromising, or fanatical methods or behaviour, esp in being politically radical

adjective:

of, relating to, or characterized by immoderate or excessive actions, opinions, etc.


'appens all the time, dunnit?


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 03:03 AM

"So enough with the casing of stones"....unfortunate turn of phrase I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 09:58 AM

But then you have to define "excessive" and "immoderate" and so forth.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 10:00 AM

Y'all are starting to read like the Monty Python "argument sketch."


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 10:21 AM

You started it! :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 10:39 AM

I might be arguing in my spare time!


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 11:28 AM

:-)


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