BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice

Subject: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: sophocleese
Date: 24 Sep 99 - 01:10 PM

Just exploring the boundaries here. We had a man show up to our song circle with a couple of tambourines. He was cheerful, obviously enjoyed the music, but banged his tambourines to the beat of a different drummer. Eventually somebody did ask him not to bring them and he kept coming without them. But did we do right? Or should we have let him continue to bring and bang them?

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Tony Burns
Date: 24 Sep 99 - 01:14 PM

You did right. Since he kept coming it seems to me that he wasn't offended. We all screw up and most of the time we are not aware of it. A friend will gently urge you to change your ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: paddymac
Date: 24 Sep 99 - 01:33 PM

Geez, Tony, now you've gone and stuck your thumb in the soup. You're absolutely right that we all screw up without knowing it. It's just that some of us welcome constructive admonishment while others have a tough time accepting it without seeing it as rejection. Then again, some folks are adept at constructively adminishing, while others are totally insensitive clods. Would that we were all perfect. :>)

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: annamill
Date: 24 Sep 99 - 02:03 PM

I have a girlfriend who is wonderful and comes to all Glenns jams, his gigs, and was at my first gathering. Her name is Susan and she is great, but..she insists on playing the tamborine. She can't keep a beat and it drives Glenn nuts, drummer that he is.

He asked her nicely once and she was very hurt because she just wanted to be part of it. So he gave it back and told her it was fine for her to play. I think she is uncomfortable now and sometimes she refuses. We don't know how to handle it either. Glenn hid the tamborine, but she asked him where it is so she can play.

We are generally nice people and do not want to hurt anyones feelings, especially a good friend like Susan. He lets her play and grins an bears it. She is not at all the jams though.

Oh well. Love, annap

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Allan C.
Date: 24 Sep 99 - 02:12 PM

Anna, it sounds like you are beating around the bush. Ya just gotta tell her. If she is truly a friend and sees you the same way, she will know that you wouldn't bring it up if it weren't a problem. BTW, at your first gathering, I am certain that every male eye in the place was on her and didn't give a hoot whether she played a tambourine or bass drum!

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Sep 99 - 02:23 PM

This one is sounding a bit like the good old bodhran conversations. I don't know the situation in this example but as a general principle, I am against the idea of telling somebody they can't join in. Assuming we are talking about reasonable people, as this case seems to be, maybe a please keep it down a bit or possibly some construcive advice is likely to provide a better solution.

In about 20 years of playing in folk clubs and sessions, I have yet to suggest that somebody should not be joining in (although some situations might be intolerable - I've not come across a really bad situation like say a badly played trombone in an Irish session) and the closest I came to asking somebody to stop occured fairly recently. This was in an event that I am paid in beer money to keep going (it's a sort of cross between a jam session and ub entertainment) and a local bodhran player turned up with something that I think was called an ocean drum (looks like a double sided bodhran with ballbearings in side it). I simply could not keep time which the delayed sound that the bearings produced and did tell him that if he wanted to play it, he would have to sit as far away from me as possible.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Alice
Date: 24 Sep 99 - 02:27 PM

Anna, maybe your friend with the tambourine would appreciate some pointers in how to practice keeping a steady beat, when to come in, when to be quiet and learn to play better. Some help in improving would be good for everyone concerned. I am sure you could find some things on the internet that you could print out and give to her for guidelines.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Sep 99 - 05:46 PM

We did a song in 5/4 time at noon Mass Sunday. Our deranged tambourine lady doesn't understand anything but an uneven 4/4. I was about ready to choke her, but that is not considered appropriate conduct in a Catholic church. Besides, she wasn't any more off tempo than the woman with the maracas and the guy with the flute. That left two of us to sing, and I couldn't hear the other voice. It was a disaster. Noon Mass usually is.
I felt like I was singing in a Salvation Army band - click here.
I also sing at ten AM, just so I can get some pleasure out of singing in church.
-Joe, frustrated church musician-

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Margo
Date: 24 Sep 99 - 06:32 PM

Here's another lesson I learned about how people think. Part of one disorder is that the person doesn't understand the importance of things: is this a 1 or a 10 on the importance scale?

Here I am, the kind of person that wears my heart on my sleeve, and I am one to be easily hurt. Yet I have, through much self examination, been able to help myself put things into perspective. Not everyone does this, so you will at time hurt feelings. But I think it very important to tell people if they're off the mark.

As a solution, you could perhaps offer a few lessons on keeping on beat, at a time when you can be one on one. If she doesn't improve, give her a sand filled egg or some other such "soft" sounding rhythm inst that won't be so brash.

It's give and take on both parts. It doesn't have to be all or nuthin'!

Margarita

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Magpie
Date: 24 Sep 99 - 06:55 PM

Warms my heart, Margarita!

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Some people can actually learn if they're given the right hints. Sarcasm doesn't (at least from my experience) really work.

Just trailing off again- a friend of mine is a fanatic music lover, but- she doesn't know how to hold a note. She sings out of key so badly, it hurts. Whenever anyone brought out a guitar and started singing, she'd be there squawking away like a rusty water pump. We shuddered with every note, but we didn't have the heart to ask her to shut her gob, she enjoyed it too much! Her face lit up, her eyes sparkeled, it would have felt like stealing sweets from a wee one!

In the end, we decided to have a go at teaching her how to use her voice in a not so window-pane-shattering way. It worked! She dropped her pitch a few noteds, and was after a while able to produce some quite nice sounds.

Magpie

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Allan C.
Date: 24 Sep 99 - 06:55 PM

Actually I kinda like the idea of giving Susan private lessons...

A tape recording might prove quite valuable. Maybe you and Glenn could have a short session with her and have her play the way she always does. Tape it. Play it back and try to help her hear the problem areas. If she just can't hear it, then the sand egg sounds like the place to go.

BTW, I didn't mean to sound as hard as I did in my previous post. There was a little girl at Anna's gathering who was having a great time playing a washboard I had brought. She wasn't anywhere near to being with the beat and was sometimes playing during tunes or songs which may not have been appropriate vehicles for such accompaniment. But she was really trying to play. And she wasn't especially obtrusive. I would never want to discourage that kind of enthusiasm. I would want to encourage Susan to find an avenue of musical expression. Maybe a rhythm instrument just isn't her thing. Maybe she could try an autoharp. (Not that you don't have to have a sense of rhythm to play virtually anything; but some are more flexible than others IMHO.)

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: alison
Date: 24 Sep 99 - 10:32 PM

yes... I agree with the take the tambourine and hide it.. and substitute a shakey egg, (some are much quieter than others).... then the person can still feel that they are participating.... without being quite so distracting to everyone else.

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 02:30 PM

Putting aside the issue of etiquette, for a moment, what is the opinion of the tambourine as an instrument?

Here in the UK it is and will always be The Salvation Army's instrument......

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Bert
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 03:00 PM

Great on those rare occasions when it's played well.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: GospelPicker (inactive)
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 03:24 PM

I have friends who are absolutely dreadful musicians... here's a story about how the issue got settled for me once and for all.

My father has been an elder (deacon to some of you) in his church for 32 years... He is truly a man in love with the Lord Jesus Christ. One thing, though... Dad can't carry a tune with a handle attached, and he'll tell you as much. But the sound of his singing in church or elsewhere used to drive me crazy... monotone and droning... then I realized something... God is not concerned with the flashiness or expensivity of the opfferings we give Him, just that the offerings are sincere and purposed to glorify and honor Him. So Dad's singing is to glorify God... he only ever sings hymns and I know he is doing it to please and honor God. What i hear now is not the tonal quality or the pitch, it's the love. Anyone who makes a joyful noise because they are blessed with a deep love of music and singing or playing it should be welcomed with arms wide open... Pavarotti or not.

The only difference is when you are getting paid to perform... then, of course, quality counts... I would suggest to an out-of-key or off-rhythm person asking to join you on a paid gig to sit in for a song and see how it goes... if they turn out to be terrible, well, ask the audience to give them a big hand for being such a trooper and then go on by yourself. No feelings hurt, and the person gets to hear their name over the PA with the added fun of applause.

GospelPicker

@:()>[+]

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 05:30 PM

I think the tambourine is cheerful in small doses but it quickly becomes irritating if overplayed.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Callie
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 06:09 PM

The thing about a tambourine is that IT'S LOUD!! Far too loud in an acoustic session. Even in a miked concert, the tambourine is often handed to the 'non-musical' one. When in fact it takes some skill to play in time and play it non-intrusively.

You did right to take the instrument away. Maybe there's another she can play in its place. The suggestion of the egg was good, although that sound tends to cut through as well.

I'm just waiting for someone to invent RUBBER-BACKED SPOONS. There is a lovely woman who comes to one of our sessions but insists on 'playing' spoons incessantly through the entire song and through all the songs. Oh - I forgot to mention that she pays out of time and the same rhythm, no matter what the song. No-one has told her to shut up only because she was married to a well known folkie who is now deceased.

C

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 07:14 PM

I'm starting to feel better about my self as one of those people with those damn bodhráns!

On the subject of tambourines, I've heard people do some amazing things with them, primarily in Middle Eastern music. The tambourine and for that matter, percussion in general is viewed as something that you can just pick up and start playing. In every beginning bodhrán class I've taught, there's been at least one person whose face fell when they realized they wouldn't have it licked in a month. Truth be told, I was that person when I was a student in the beginning class. Tambourines, shakers, triangles and bones can all be absolute murder in the hands of a novice. Especially because nobody starts out playing quietly. I would look who the session is geared towards. I periodically play a beginner's session that was started through Calliope School where I teach. I've played with people there that would probably be asked to leave some other sessions I've played at. It's a session designed for people who are just getting their feet wet. I've played at some sessions where you are expected to be at a fairly accomplished level before you sit down.


Now, this is gonna come of as defensive, but bad etiquette is not entirely the realm of the persecutionist, er I mean percussionist. I've heard accordion players who can play quietly but don't. I've heard various players of different instruments, who have their own reperetoire not in common with ANYONE else at the session and insist on playing lots of it, while the bulk of others sit and wonder why he or she doesn't learn any of the tunes that are going around. I've been to sessions where a singer will sit down at a predominantly tunes-oriented session and expect to sing 5 or 6 songs in a row. Makes me proud to be a bodhránai

Slán agat,
Rich

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 07:31 PM

Time to take of that hair shirt.....All very true Rich. All power to your beater.

It is the volume of the tambourine yes. I took a long time to tape up all the 'rattly' bits on the one we used for gigs. Only to find that a member of the audience, to be helpful, had carefully peeled it all off again.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 08:02 PM

Just like a little kid trying to help! LOL

Rich

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: flattop
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 10:33 PM

You can get a particularly satisfying sound from the tambourine if you bang it on the singer's head. Say the guitarist is winding down the tune, two beats on the Gm9, two on the C13b9, a bar long arpeggio on the Fmaj7. Just as he hits the end of the arpeggio, slam the tambourine up against the side of the singer's head and let it bounce off with a wobbly trill. I'm not certain about the etiquette but it sure is a crowd pleaser.

insincerely, fla

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Marion
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 10:55 PM

Maybe some compromise could be reached - maybe you could tell him that the tambourine works better in some songs than others. Then in each session pick a few songs that are in 4/4 and are OK a little raucous and say "this would be a good one for the tambo."

It's a dilemma alright, I'd hate to ask someone not to play, but I'd hate to listen to a tambourine all night.

Marion, who knows that part of being a fiddler is knowing when not to play

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 12:27 AM

This is the kind of thing that somteims gets a session moved to a new time or location without telling a certain someone.

Rich

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 09:21 AM

I have to go along with Rich here.

Another good method if you have your Bodhran and there is another player or tambourinist cutting up the tune, is to catch their eye, then very visibly, SMILE at them, put down your ciapin, set aside your drum, nod at them and sit back and make a show of listening to the tune. Only the very self-assured will resist

AWM

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 09:39 AM

Perhaps you could chip in and buy one of those tambourines without the cymbals. You could say it was a rare African whatever -- "we are trying out a new sound". It is the smash and the cymbals that get to you. A lower deeper drum might be just the thing: sort of like playing with an annoying clunk from the furnace pipes. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: flattop
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 09:59 AM

I'd like to hear you play Marion. All musicians should learn when to not play. Contrast is important. Rests are important.

Music teachers should work rests in gradually, teaching us the sixty-fourth rest right up to the whole rest. Sixty-fourth rests shouldn't be too traumatic for the guitar players in our song circle. After whole rests, we could learn larger rests, like wait-for-the-bridge or take-a-nap or listen-quietly or an isn't-that-a-cappella-tune-lovely-without-our-unnecessary-plunky-appoggiatura?

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Callie
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 09:36 PM

Peter T: genius!! What would the instrument be called? The hushtora?

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 09:12 PM

I think that, since this thread has been reactivated, I should give you guys an update on The-Man-With-The-Tambourine.

Let's see...what to say and how to say it...

He was an elderly man with decided views on things and a disinclination to bathe. He loved to sing hymns and classics like My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean, Home on the Range, and Red River Valley. We all sang along cheerfully with him. He had difficulty finding his starting note so those with guitars helped him find his key and then wrote it on his music for future reference.

There was one time when he got up to sing holding two sheets of paper with his lyrics. On one sheet he had verses to My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean, on the other sheet he had verse to Red River Valley. He thought that he had the lyrics to one song and that he needed to go back and forth, verse by verse, from one sheet to the other. He sang a complete song with a tune that continually morphed from My Bonnie to Red River and back again. I ended up in the kitchen because it is not considered polite to roll around on the floor crying with laughter in front of performers. Others were made of sterner stuff and mamaged to stay in their seats, but without entirely straight faces.

During summer months he sometimes brought produce to song circle and would then present cucumbers to women who sang songs that he liked.

However, as much as we would have accepted and tolerated him as an eccentric, he was also rude and selfish at times. He did not like to have to wait for his turn and often tried to sing two songs at once instead of one. One woman felt that his behaviour to her was inappropriately familiar. He once harangued all the women in the circle who weren't wearing dresses for not dressing as proper women should. He was tediously vocal in his belief that Judgement Day was at hand and all of us who had not accepted Jesus were going to die. People stopped showing up at song circle because they were tired of his rudeness. For this reason it was decided to cancel the song circle for a month. This man was not informed of the decision and has not shown up again. I feel that we were rude to him but that we had had little choice as he was not amenable to changing his ways and his presence was deterring others from coming. I hope we don't have to do this ever again.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 09:52 PM

So that's where you all went!

Now that I know, I'll be back.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 11:45 PM

You know it's good to be tolerant and to not repay bad etiquette with bad etiquette. However when the player in question doesn't take a hint or learn from example, I think a little turnabout is warranted. One person can ruin a session and chase off one or more key players in a session.

A session I play at has a bodhrán owner (calling him a player is way too much credit) who doesn't want to sit out, will want to play the next 10, has to pick up a shaker or a set of bones as soon as he puts down his drum and SUCKS. I'm taking a different approach. I've asked my old teacher who had quit playing this session about a year and a half ago, to come around again. This will give the player in question two examples of percussionists NOT being assholes (pardon the expression) and make it obvious who the problem is. I don't know if it will work but it can't hurt. If anything it will make at least some of my sitting out more enjoyable because I like my friend's playing.

Rich

Subject: RE: BS: Musical Etiquette 3:Tambourine vs. voice
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 05:53 AM

"present cucumbers to women who sang songs that he liked."

That's a polite way of putting it. I dread to think what he did to those he did not like?

Very often when you are forced to take some sort of action against someone who does behave anti-socially, you then run the the risk of being percieved as being the anti-social one youself.