Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 07:05 PM

Who knew? I'll have to take a look.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 01:12 PM

There are youtube videos to identify types of hum,
and their cause..

I watched one recently about amplifyer hum associated with failed old capacitors...

[sorry cant remember title..]

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 11:52 AM

I found a JVC stereo shelf system that had a CD player that worked when I first tested it (brought home from the thrift store - I have 2 weeks to return it if it doesn't work) but now it hangs and I hear a hum. It may have a belt that worked at first, but then failed. It's a 1994 unit and I'm waiting to marry it to a the correct remote found on eBay. The whole thing will have cost me $17, and is easily sold on eBay, even as "parts or repair" for substantially more.

I found a pair of Polk Audio speakers a while back that live in the other room where I can test equipment, and those are what I used to test this. Testing the sound now with the radio, it is amazing. But it does needs work. This was sold in the day when the owner's manual included all of the schematics, the parts list, and even an exploded view of the insides of the device. I can manage simple repairs, so since this cost me $6.99 I think it's worth taking the time to fiddle with the CD player. I haven't yet tested the dual cassette players. It has an aux port in back so I can run the photograph through it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: JHW
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:26 AM

A problem I've had with venerable kit is it doesn't get used enough so goes wrong sat doing nothing. My Aiwa cassette deck door wouldn't open. My Sony TC377 tapedeck several times has needed repair. On last return I'd forgotten what I wanted to play. (reel to reel) As post above I copied much to cassette but now cars won't play them indeed loan car out there today won't even play CDs.
Thread headline says Turntables. Back in the 70s I reckoned if I gave up smoking for a year I could assemble a decent hifi set up. After a month I came home with a Connoiseur turntable, just the bit that goes round and motor. But I'd cracked the smoking and never smoked again. Still use that turntable. Transcriptors arm and now Nagoaka MC cartridge. Amp, Tuner have been replaced a few times. Burglars took some but left that turntable.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 02:53 PM

Bringing this back up to the top to accompany other tech threads.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 May 18 - 04:57 AM

Talking of good quality turntables, this appeared on Dime overnight:

Emmylou Harris & The Hot Band
Gilley’s, Pasadena, TX
Early 1984 (or maybe late 1983 - exact date unknown)

Live From Gilley's syndicated radio show #84-04
Aired weekend of 1/21-22/84

Lineage: Original pre-FM vinyl > Audacity > Wav > Flac (L8, align on SBs)

01. Live From Gilley's LG 84-04 Intro - Jim Duncan
02. Bad Moon Rising
03. (Lost His Love) On Our Last Date
04. Restless
05. Commercial - Rolaids (Roger Staubach and Tommy Lasorda)
06. Commercial - Dentyne Sugarless Gum
07. Commercial - Spam
08. Live From Gilley's LG 84-04 Break - Jim Duncan
09. Pancho And Lefty
10. Born To Run
11. Tonight The Bottle Let Me Down
12. Leaving Louisiana In The Broad Daylight
13. Commercial - Rolaids (Roger Staubach and Tommy Lasorda)
14. Commercial - Dentyne Sugarless Gum
15. Live From Gilley's LG 84-04 Break - Jim Duncan
16. Tennessee Rose
17. If I Needed You
18. Commercial - Trident Sugarless Gum
19. Commercial - Rolaids (Roger Staubach and Tommy Lasorda)
20. Live From Gilley's LG 84-04 Break - Jim Duncan
21. How High The Moon
22. Band Introductions
23. The Boxer
24. Commercial - Trident
25. Commercial - Spam
26. Live From Gilley's LG 84-04 Break - Jim Duncan
27. Amarillo
28. Luxury Liner
29. Live From Gilley's LG 84-04 Outro - Jim Duncan

Total time 54:11

Emmylou Harris - vocals, acoustic guitar
Wayne Goodwin - mandolin, fiddle
Don Johnson - piano, vocals
Barry Tashian - rhythm guitar, vocals
Frank Reckard - mandolin, acoustic & electric guitars, vocals
Steve Fishell - dobro, pedal steel
Michael Bowden - bass
Don Heffington - drums

http://www.emmylouharris.com/

Dave's notes:
This version has some surface noise issues on several tracks. Specifically, Tennessee Rose, If I Needed You, How High The Moon, and The Boxer have audible surface noise. It's not bad, but it's not perfect, and usually my digitizations are better than this one. In this case, the vinyl had more noise than I could remove without spending a year cleaning it up. Eventually I'll find a better copy...so until then, this is the best that we've got of this show. It's not bad...it's just not PERFECT.

Live From Gilley’s was a single LP syndicated radio show featuring country and country-rock acts that ran from 1981 until 1989 featuring live performances recorded at Gilley’s Club in Pasadena, Texas. In 1986, performances recorded at venues other than Gilley’s were occasionally included, and as it is ridiculous to say "Live From Gilley’s presents the Judds recorded live in Holland!," announcer Jim Duncan would call out the show as "Westwood One Presents" instead of "Live From Gilley’s."

At the same time, they continued to use the "Live At Gilley’s" record labels on these shows, but began identifying the non-Gilley’s recordings on the cue sheet as "Westwood One Presents." In 1989, the disc labels were switched to "Westwood One Presents" until the end of the "Westwood One Presents" show in 1990.

Emmylou Harris had broadcasts on "Live From Gilley's" in 1983 as show #83-14, on this show #84-04, and on "Best of Gilley's" compilation shows #83-44, 85-35, and 86-44.

300 dpi scans of the cue sheet and a disc label are included.

Many thanks to Dave for all his efforts and providing this file set through his Voodoo Wagon blog.

Support the artists! Buy their official releases, go to their concerts!
Trade freely! Do not buy or sell! Keep it lossless!

Uploaded to DIME by propylaen in May 2018.

Now these Pre-FM discs, if in good condition, can provide superb audio sound before sometimes overwhelming FM broadcast compression is applied - per BBC Radio 2, always worth a listen. I didn't have time to hear any of this Emmylou set this morning unfortunately, but it sits on my hard drive for this evening!

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 May 18 - 07:23 PM

I bought the four-piece AIWA system in 1997 to record LPs to cassettes before the LPs left my possession (estate stuff). The speakers are still fine, as is the turntable, but the workings of the main piece are a bit bonkers. It isn't letting me tune or save as presets right now, I don't know about the CD player or the dual cassette portion. I can keep all but the main piece and pick up a replacement or several parts to use there.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 May 18 - 05:40 PM

Still have our multi-functional Sony system which we bought in the late 1970s: radio, turntable, double cassette including record cassette-cassette all still working. 5 CD Changer isn't working (laser gone?)and the radio no longer does pre-sets, but can still be tuned! (Other devices in the house can play the CDs).
Various add-ons, thanks to my son: mini-desk deck, so can still play all the recordings I made back along, + better speakers.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 May 18 - 01:48 PM

Any advice on CD players?

I have a lot of very old CDs with minor scratches, and often play CDRs written by computer. I haven't found a player that can cope well with both. If it can play the CDRs it will skip on the scratches. And I've been through a lot of second-hand CD players.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 May 18 - 12:59 PM

Bringing this back up to the top. My 20-year-old system in my office seems to be failing, and I visit a lot of thrift stores. I need to look for some of the good old devices for replacements.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 07:49 AM

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TEAC-3340S-QUAD-Reel-To-Reel-Simul-Sync-/121382891214?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Multi_Track_Recorders&hash=item1c42fbeece

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 07:43 AM

JHW, you chose well. The B139 Kef bass driver is still excellent.

Bonzo, it seems that for once you did something right.    The Teac may be worth resurrecting

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 04:18 PM

Ah, I have a Teac 3340 reel to reel 4 channel recorder by my left foot which may also be worth selling for spares!

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 04:00 PM

Zerostat !!!???

Would a 35 year old zerostat gun still function properly after being forgotten away in a drawer somewhere since the 1980s ???

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: JHW
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 03:18 PM

Gurney said 'and it cost more than a weeks wages once'

In 1970 I'd no idea how I could afford the quality of sound I wanted but reckoned if I gave up smoking for a year that might just do it. After a month I came home proudly bearing my Connoisseur turntable, just the bit that goes round and the motor, no arm, no plinth, but I'd stopped smoking and never have since.

Still use my Transcriptors arm and Connoisseur Turntable also my filing cabinet size Kef speakers built 1970s
Sony TC377 r-r tape deck still good though has had repairs

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 03:11 PM

Nakamichi. I have a Nakamichi CD player. It sucks.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:15 PM

What were those realy expensive high end Japanese cassette decks ?

Naka something or other ???

I remember seeing an end of line [not just product, but the entire technology !!!] sale
where shed loads of top price Nakas were being unloaded at very silly low prices.

Wish I'd had the sense to snap a few up at that time.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:09 PM

I had an Onkyo tape deck once. It didn't suck, it ate. It ate tapes. Went into the bin long ago - as did my TEAC tape deck.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM

A Technics SL 1100A turntable on Ebay.

(I am resisting temptation)
Also 1200 MK6 pair on offer

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 12:21 PM

I have been using old equipment for some 30 years. A lot of good stuff out there, but many audiophiles after it.
I have-
Luxman amplifier, two tubes
JVC turntable
Marantz cd player
Onkyo (sp.?) receiver
Cassette player, Onkyo
Plugged into the amplifier are two dvd players, Sony and Toshiba, the latter all-zone, and a new Sony flat-screen TV.

Separate is a Sony that converts tape to DVD, but it is slow; not happy with it.

Very happy with the audio system. (The DVD players and the TV are late models, "almost new")

There was a shop here run by a technician specializing in used good quality to high end audio equipment. The Luxman came from him, the turntable from Value Village, the Marantz was bought new (gray market), the receiver and cassette player from Ebay.

I have many cassettes, but copied only a few to cd- the systems I looked at were all slow like he one I have.

Any suggestions??

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:38 AM

Sinclair! The inventor of the wft watt output... Dogshit

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:16 AM

Crikey, I have a 1960s B&O 2000 half track tape recorder. Perhaps I could sell it at say £1,000 for spares!!

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:52 AM

Does anyone remember the Sinclair range of modular Hi-fi?

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 03:39 AM

I did got the speed on my beogram 2000 working (I had to send it away) but is has since played up again and is going to have to go way again.

My Rotel deck went away for a speed-adjustment pot, but was running very slow when it returned. I am due to collect it from Mr Fixit soon.

I came by a Garrard zero-100 for nothing. That too has had speed control issues and I am also due to collect it this week. I also got fairly cheap (apart from the petrol to go to collect it) a JVC parallel-tracking deck but it needs the apparently electronically controlled lift-off at the end of 7 inch singles, and the laser autodetect for 7 inch singles sorting - it is waiting to go away after Mr Google found me a man who says he can.

No progress on the Goldrings yet.

B&O amp and tuner sorted. 3 sets of B&O speakers sorted.

B&O music centre seems OK but I ahve ont got down to the vinyl deck on it yet although I did find a man in germany who will refurb the cartridge for 90 Euros.

I gave up on the AT70 and will soon bin it, as well as some BSR decks that were cheap rubbish even when they worked.   

I will be happy to have some decent decks back as I am at present reliant on a Sony that sound simply dire even with a new cartridge.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 10:16 PM

Since I started this three years ago I've been working on a project at my library that will involve digitizing various analog media. We have been shopping around equipment and I wanted to look back to see what I'd posted before that might help our project. Progress report later, if they ever get around to getting some of the equipment needed (in this case, the new stuff - the computer and sound card and a good software program).

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 04:01 PM

The thing about buying old turntables now is that a lot of stuff ends up at garage sales where people haven't researched to find out if something that is old actually has value. So yes if you go to a marketplace that has good old equipment, you'll pay for it. But you can still get lucky and find the older pieces before the collectors find them.

I have two turntables, one that I bought 15 years ago to use in making cassette copies (LP to cassette on one multi-device system) and my Dad's old turntable.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 03:27 PM

Sage, you asked if anyone is still using turntables: Yes, I have a big linear-arm Pioneer that I have had for 27 years, and it is still in VGC. Diamond styli make a difference, and it cost more than a weeks wages once.   
For re-recording LPs to CDs, I'm using a new cheap Optimus which has a pre-amp so that it plugs straight into the computer sound-card. Nothing like the same quality as the Pioneer, but when the LP collection is 'done,' it will be surplus, and it sounds just as good anyway!

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: pdq
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 02:57 PM

Luxman tube stuff is great equipment.

I modified a pair of their 60 watt monos to use KT 99s when the original custom-made triode tubes became impossible to get at any cost.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 02:47 PM

I have passed on two good turntables to a daughter and a son, who also collect lps. At one time I had five, but am down to one setup for lps, and the other for old 78s, and a spare.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 02:43 PM

I have done all right with an Ebay cassette player, high end, that I got cheap. Had it reconditioned. I have many cassettes, and it is too time-consuming to transfer them to cd.

Some time ago I picked up three good quality turntables at Value Village here. I replaced the cartridge on one, but cartridges on the other two still had many hours of life left in them, without damaging good lps.

Of course top quality pre-owned equipment is in great demand and asking prices are high if it is in good condition.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 11:27 AM

I have a beady eye on a Levers-Rich tape machine that a chap I know said he would sell me cheap.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results w/ Old Equipment - Turntables
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 11:25 AM

I just had an email conversation with an old friend who is wanting a new turntable. I had suggested he might get more than his money's worth by purchasing an older player, and came looking for this thread. It took a while to find this tech thread (hint: search on the subject and your Mudcat moniker if you know you participated there). I've added "Turntable" to the title so it comes up more easily in a search.

This said, is anyone else still using or have you refurbished any older turntables? Do you buy them in garage sales or have you found any online sites for reliable machines (I would have to hold my nose to bid on something like this on eBay, but I suppose it could be done.)

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 03:03 PM

Thanks, Ian! Interesting information.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 11:14 AM

I sit down next to a 1970s Teac 3340 reel to reel every day - oh that it still worked!!

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Musket
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 11:11 AM

I hear what people are saying about MP3. However, I have very little MP3 on my iPod. I had the purchased content uprated to AAC at a high bit rate. In fact, I need to re rip a few of my old vinyl records that I did to common or garden MP3 many years ago.

Bach Cello Suite No.4 in E flat, (Maurice Gendron recording) is a good audio test and I have used it many times when testing out new installations. Matt Milton notes cellos can sound different. By playing the original vinyl on my trusty old Technics SL B2 with Stanton backwind cartridge (if anybody is interested,) into a Cambridge Audio A5 amp and Eltax (can't remember the type) floor standing speakers, I then compared to the same out of my iPhone into a cheap bluetooth DAC plugged into the Cambridge amp, £15.00 as I said, and if there was any difference, I couldn't tell. I also have a 192 MP3 rip of it on the iPhone and that was markedly worse quality.

My point is that as the end product of digital music improves in quality, (remembering that very little has been recorded other than digital for many years now) there is one hell of a new lfe for old equipment as the source from cheap modern gadgets plugged into decent gear makes a good combination.

I suggest Bridge listens to an iPod dock over £5.00 in value then. My Bose dock is stunning to say the least, at any HiFi comparison other than false snobbery. it did cost about the same as a meal out for two in our local restaurant, The Epworth Tap, thinking on. Mind you, there are cheaper restaurants, and there are cheaper docks.

I love the mix of old and new with my various rigs, and to my wife's consternation, each room seems to have some salvaged old gear linked to something new or other, and the common link being a Belkin bluetooth DAC plugged into each amp...

My home recording gear also has an old Revox B77 reel to reel, but only to remind me of the happy days playing with tape and razor blades back in the '70s. Can't remember the last time I plugged it in.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 10:28 AM

Speaking of "old equipment," old media is coming back. The LP is gaining popularity again, I don't think it quite expired after what looked like a last gasp 15 - 20 years ago.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 10:39 AM

You can rip CDs to save as mp3 files at several levels of compression, and the larger files probably have a better sound.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 09:59 AM

"Ian, no matter what you play MP3s on, they are still MP3s. The piccolos and the double basses sound a little wrong. (yeah, I sometimes listen to classical music) and the other instruments that are not in the average-human-voice range aren't quite right either."

While I am, generally speaking, on the side of those who prefer CDs/vinyl to MP3s, I always feel obliged to point out that it's a bit unfair on MP3s to expect them to sound exactly the same as their source. I mean, when we taped off an album from vinyl to cassette, we never used to bash cassettes half so much for not sounding the same as the original.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 09:00 AM

I have a CD player in my truck, but I use my mp3 player for lots of stuff stored on it and run it through one of those little short-range fm transmitters that you play on an unused portion of the fm radio band.

I had been thinking about replacing my receiver (circa 1985) because it loses the memory settings for the radio stations I program into it. But other than that it sounds wonderful, so I haven't replaced it. I guess I need to figure out if there's a battery (I opened it and didn't seen on, but maybe in 1985 they didn't look like either the standard Duracell type or the flat quarter-sized disk that are in lots of computers and such.)

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 05:46 AM

I have, or rather my wife has a 35 year old tuner - a Sansui T60 which in a corner at the top or our stairs provides excellent hiss free reception of BBC Radio 3. We actually live in a very bad reception area, and the DAB radio I bought a few years ago was a complete waste of money.

My FLAC player (Sansa Clip) is played through my car cassette player (!!) via one of those adapters which clicks all the time. One day I'll get a CD player with an aux input or even USB!

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Gurney
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 07:54 PM

Ian, no matter what you play MP3s on, they are still MP3s. The piccolos and the double basses sound a little wrong. (yeah, I sometimes listen to classical music) and the other instruments that are not in the average-human-voice range aren't quite right either. Acoustic instruments, extraordinary voices.
Nit-picking, I know.
I can plug my MP3 players into all of my amplification equipment, but I find that I only do so into the car radio. Although the CDs of MP3s sometimes get an airing. Rarely.

When I wrote the post above, I was listening on that Sony to Sarah Brightman's CD 'Diva.' Magical.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 03:27 PM

I have yet to hear an i-pod dock that sounds like anything but the earliest NEC (Nippon Electric Company) pocket transistor radios. If you MUST digitise (I am sure I can hear the difference despite a lifetime with the volume control at 11) at least play back through a hifi rig. I have not beaten the Boegram yet, but the intermittent hum on the SP25 (yes, SP25, honest) turned out to be dirty contacts on the slide-in cartridge carrier. The Mark I and IIs didn't do that, it was a new design fault on the Mark IVs. The dodgy channel seems to have been cartridge mounting in the Rotel deck - the cartridge however is a Sontra EX500 and I was gobsmacked at the improvement over a Shure M75-6 when I put it in a couple of years back.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: michaelr
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 03:16 PM

Bose kit for the price of a meal? You must be eating at 3-star restaurants!

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 03:15 PM

In Calgary, we are lucky to have excellent repair craftsmen at at least two shops.
My amplifier is a Luxman, its two tubes are still in excellent matched condition. I had it cleaned a few months ago. Must be 40-50 years old. With it, I have a tuner, cassette player, and a relatively new Marantz cd-player (30 years old). The speakers are new, Canadian, floor models that I got because my old JVC speakers were losing their snap. I had the cassette player reconditioned.
My VHS and DVD players and a new TV are all hooked into the Luxman amplifier.
I have two turntables, both used. Of course the cartridges have been replaced.

I was also able to get my daughter a good used set-up. She has one of those Bose cd-radio things, which is over-priced junk.

I am looking for a good blue Ray player. There is a noticeable difference in sound with the new Blue Ray discs in most cases.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Musket
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 02:35 PM

I used to spend all my money on HiFi equipment.

These days, I have plugged a £15.00 bluetooth receiver into the amps in the various rooms and play via the iPhone or iPad.

Either my hearing is getting bad, (I don't think so) or a modern Onkyo receiver can play with the sound to such an extent that my interest in the equipment mentioned in this thread, (used to own some of it!) is pure nostalgia these days, rather than search for pure quality. Is it good or bad that for the price of a good meal out you can buy a speaker dock for your phone that is stunning, really stunning? (Bose.)

I think it is good.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 01:40 PM

Because neither of you has functioning old equipment?

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: kendall
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 01:22 PM

Has anyone noticed that neither I nor Spaw has played with this title?

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 01:14 PM

I have a Victrola from my great aunt's home and several intervening generations of devices like here also. It's amazing how much sound those old players could put out!

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 04:27 AM

I have my grandparents' mahogany boxed wind-up gramophone - steel playing arm and the volume is controlled by the amount the two front doors are opened. I also have a great stack of 78rpm recordings to go with it. When we were young, if the neighbours next door were making a racket (which they did quite often) my father would make me place the machine in the empty chimney piece - and then play Tito Gobbi singing "Largo al Factotum" at full volume...

Now that's what I call a good result with old equipment...

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 01:15 AM

I have my father's ancient (relatively) receiver, turntable, speakers (big, but sound great), and a few other pieces of equipment that still work fine. He was the audio-visual librarian at a college and got to test a lot of gear over the years, so I imagine he bought the best ones available that he could afford at the time. I also have a large shelf full of the LPs from his house, along with my own. They still sound good, even if playing them is a total novelty for my children. :-)

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Gurney
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 11:03 PM

Midchuck, speak for yourself!
Oh, you were doing...;-)

I bought a black Sony stereo set for a friend who's equipment had collapsed, but it was "too big" and he couldn't read the writing on the controls. It is very good indeed, and I'm keeping it. Better sound to my ears than lots of modern and expensive stuff. Including modern Sony.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:23 PM

"Good Results with Old Equipment" sounds like a good title for a song--or an album.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:15 PM

The poster, of course, is gargoyle

---

I "LOVE" my trans-oceananic (Zenith H500) fortunately it runs on 120 AC current. We were up all night, the day my father brought it home. The dry-cells made it "portable". However at 10 kilograms - it is far from something you want hanging on your ear.

The bandwidth and range-sensitivity ASTOUNDING. EVERY conception of configuration.

No digital scanner "lock-in" but that is half the fun. A hand written log-book - a google map - amazing what the world flushes down the bandwidth....and without "reverse engineering" but "straight from the box" technology 1948 - it can't be illegal?

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Midchuck
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 09:46 PM

Another thread with a more interesting title (for those of us past 60) than the content.

Peter

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 08:37 PM

It is generally thought that older germanium transistors sound better than silicon transistors. FETs are more modern and usually are also considered better sounding than silicon.

Discrete transistors sound better than integrated circuits and both sound better than OP Amps.

Some modern receivers have a big IC chip with a heat sink bolted to the back panel and a bunch of controls hanging off the front panel. Mostly an empty box.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: michaelr
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 08:07 PM

B&O? Nice gear...

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 06:36 PM

As luck would have it, my friend Brent Butterworth just wrote an article where he compared the sound of a 2009 Yamaha RX-V1800 receiver with a 1980 Pioneer SX-1980

I'm not sure but is he comparing like for like here? Looking at Yamaha's web pages, the RX-V series are home theatre amps. They have a completely different section for hi-fi amps such as this one

Whatever, my ears are not going to hear the finer points of hi-fi.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 06:10 PM

Michael, I am refurbishing a Beogram 2000 I got off freecycle. I've got a second hand stylus off ebay - a new one would have been a shedload, and a new drive belt (there are several different) from Switzerland, and the next step is speed stability... So far a nearly working Beogram 2000 for a total spent of £40.

In the past I got a PL12D off freecycle - needed belt and cartridge - and once I have the Beogram sorted my next projects are a GL78 (needs at least antiskate and cartridge and de-rusting) and a Garrard AT70 - all got for nothing.

Decent old-fashioned sounding amps are harder...

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 06:04 PM

Yes - I have an analogue spread out on the drawing room floor right now (which is why I am so vexed the Pioneer (or the vinyl deck, the jury is out) has decided it wants expensive tickling).

An entire back of a Volvo estate of vinyl off "freecycle". Cost Nix. Quite a lot of the DGG quality classical stuff to explore, but reasonable rock, some interesting disco, even some folk-alike. I'm going to have to listen through the surface noise on some but I'm looking forward to it! Hardly any MoR and sweet-soul shit which often turns up on freecyle: Luther Van Dross and Lionel Ritchie are observable by their absence, hooray! There is, I have noted, one Hamilton Bohanon but I quite liked some of his stuff...

Ween I have sorted the playing gear, I can see the PA rig is going to need to be slaved up. Loud and Proud!

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: michaelr
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 06:01 PM

Are there any audiophiles among the younger generations? They seem to want mp3s pumped directly into their brains via earbuds, with no regard for soundwaves interacting with physical spaces.

I wish I had one of those 70s Pioneer or Marantz receivers, and a nice turntable. You can't get that kind of gear anymore (new) for reasonable prices, if at all.

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 05:39 PM

No, you have to know what you're looking for then get lucky and stumble upon it, but it really is amazing what people get rid of around here. I see electronic equipment all of the time, so I'll print this article out and keep it in the truck for those days when I decide to look at garage sales.

In the great garage sale find category, my best is this: at a sale a few years ago I came upon a 30-gallon bin filled to the brim with CDs. There was a rather dismissive hand-written note on top that said "All Classical Music." A woman approached me, said "we're never going to sell those. Make me an offer. $20 and they're yours." My heart skipped a beat, but I didn't have a $20 on me, so I calmly purchased my items in hand, drove to a nearby convenience store and got cash. I handed over my $20 just as someone else was advancing on the box.

It took two of us to carry it to my truck, and I unpacked it on my dining room table in a more or less alphabetical order across the entire surface. Someone's family had donated this from what must have been a scholar's estate - they were high-end high dollar issues of all sorts of wonderful works, often with several versions - I can now compare Bernstein and Toscanini and von Karajan on some of their Beethoven interpretations, for example. I did the math - over 300 disks, most of them the $15 to $25 range - I couldn't afford to go buy all of these new, but I treasure them now and hope that the deceased guy is no longer rolling in his grave for what someone did with his wonderful collection.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 04:55 PM

Mind you a quick glance at fleabay shows Pioneer SX1980s at about one and a half to two and a half thousand dollars, so not quite garage sale prices...

Subject: RE: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 04:53 PM

I wholly agree - but on amplifiers. I have a Pioneer SA1000 amp and I love the sound - not as good as the Radford STA100 I once had, but about the best tranny amp I ever heard.

Subject: Tech: Good Results With Old Equipment
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 02:42 PM

Yeah, I know what you're thinking, but this isn't that thread.

This thread is here because I read this interesting article about 30-year-old receivers.

How can 30-year-old receivers sound better than new ones?

It's a strange turn of events, but mainstream manufacturers long ago gave up on the idea of selling receivers on the basis of superior sound quality. I'm not claiming today's receivers sound "bad," but since almost no one ever listens to a receiver before they buy one, selling sound quality is next to impossible.

Back in the days when brick-and-mortar stores ruled the retail market, audio companies took pride in their engineering skills and designed entire receivers in-house. Right up through the 1980s most of what was "under the hood" was designed and built by the company selling the receiver. That's no longer true; the majority of today's gotta-have features--auto-setup, GUI menus, AirPlay, iPod/iPhone/iPad compatibility, home networking, HD Radio, Bluetooth, HDMI switching, digital-to-analog converters, Dolby and DTS surround processors--are sourced and manufactured by other companies. Industry insiders refer to the practice of cramming as many features as possible into the box as "checklist design." Sure, there are rare glimpses of original thinking going on--Pioneer's proprietary MCACC (Multi Channel Acoustic Calibration) auto-setup system is excellent--it's just that there's precious little unique technology in most receivers.

It doesn't matter if those features are useful to the majority of buyers, or if they're easy to use; no, the features are included to make the product more attractive to potential buyers. It's a numbers game, pure and simple. The receiver with the right combination of features is judged to be the best receiver.

OK, so what's wrong with that? The receiver engineers have to devote the lion's share of their design skills and budget to making the features work. Every year receiver manufacturers pay out more and more money (in the form of royalties and licensing fees) to Apple, Audyssey, Bluetooth, HD Radio, XM-Sirius, Dolby, DTS and other companies, and those dollars consume an ever bigger chunk of the design budget. The engineers have to make do with whatever is left to make the receiver sound good. Retail prices of receivers, the ones that sell in big numbers, never go up. The $300 to $500 models are where most of the sales action is, just like 10, 20 or 30 years ago, when their $300 to $500 models weren't packed to the gills with the features I just listed. Something's got to go, and sound quality usually takes the hit.

I don't blame Denon, Harman Kardon, Marantz, Onkyo, Pioneer, Sony, or Yamaha for making "good-enough-sounding" receivers, but it would be nice if they could occasionally offer one or two models with a minimal features set, and devote the maximum resources to making the thing sound as good as possible. Oh right, that's what high-end audio companies do!

As luck would have it, my friend Brent Butterworth just wrote an article where he compared the sound of a 2009 Yamaha RX-V1800 receiver with a 1980 Pioneer SX-1980 and a 1978 Sony STR-V6 receiver. In blind tests, where the listeners did not know which receiver was playing, most preferred the sound of the ancient Pioneer. Butterworth said, "Even with all the levels carefully matched, and even in conditions where none of the receivers were ever pushed past their limits, the Pioneer SX-1980 simply beat the hell out of the other receivers." Gee, what a shock; in three decades, the industry has gone backward!

Right up through most of the 1990s power ratings differentiated models within a given manufacturer's lineup, but that's barely true anymore. In those days the least expensive models had 20 or 30 watts a channel, but now most low- to midprice receivers have around 100 watts per channel. For example, Pioneer's least expensive receiver, the VSX-521 ($250) is rated at 80 watts a channel; its VSX-1021 ($550) only gets you to 90 watts: and by the time you reach the VSX-53 ($1,100) you're only up to 110 watts per channel! Doubling the budget to $2,200 gets you 140 watts per channel from their SC-37 receiver. Denon's brand-new $5,500 AVR-5308CI delivers 150 watts per channel! The 31-year-old Pioneer SX-1980 receiver Butterworth wrote about was rated at 270 watts per channel. He tested the Pioneer and confirmed the specifications: "It delivered 273.3 watts into 8 ohms and 338.0 watts into 4 ohms." It's a stereo receiver, but it totally blew away Denon's state-of-the-art flagship model in terms of power delivery!

So if you care more about sound quality than features, look around for a great old receiver! Go ahead and hook up your Blu-ray player's HDMI output directly to your display and get state-of-the-art image quality, and the player's stereo analog outputs to the receiver, and you may get better sound than today's receivers.

I'll write a how to buy vintage receivers blog post in a few weeks.

If you're like me and visit the occasional garage sale, you'll know that these old receivers are out there, still working, but cast off because they're not shiny and modern. It might be worth dropping $5 here and there to pick up one or two and see how good they sound.

SRS