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BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'

Bill D 02 Aug 11 - 10:43 AM
saulgoldie 02 Aug 11 - 10:53 AM
Bill D 02 Aug 11 - 10:56 AM
saulgoldie 02 Aug 11 - 11:02 AM
olddude 02 Aug 11 - 11:05 AM
Mrrzy 02 Aug 11 - 11:16 AM
Mrrzy 02 Aug 11 - 11:18 AM
Mrrzy 02 Aug 11 - 11:21 AM
saulgoldie 02 Aug 11 - 11:21 AM
Midchuck 02 Aug 11 - 11:37 AM
Bill D 02 Aug 11 - 01:41 PM
pdq 02 Aug 11 - 02:07 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 Aug 11 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,Eliza 02 Aug 11 - 02:47 PM
olddude 02 Aug 11 - 02:56 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 Aug 11 - 04:28 PM
Donuel 02 Aug 11 - 05:20 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 Aug 11 - 05:22 PM
Bill D 02 Aug 11 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,songbob 02 Aug 11 - 05:31 PM
Donuel 02 Aug 11 - 05:37 PM
Bill D 02 Aug 11 - 05:48 PM
gnu 02 Aug 11 - 05:56 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 Aug 11 - 05:57 PM
katlaughing 02 Aug 11 - 06:30 PM
Bill D 02 Aug 11 - 06:32 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 Aug 11 - 06:40 PM
olddude 02 Aug 11 - 07:23 PM
Goose Gander 02 Aug 11 - 07:24 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 Aug 11 - 07:27 PM
Midchuck 02 Aug 11 - 07:32 PM
dick greenhaus 02 Aug 11 - 08:27 PM
Bobert 02 Aug 11 - 08:41 PM
saulgoldie 02 Aug 11 - 08:43 PM
olddude 02 Aug 11 - 08:49 PM
Bill D 02 Aug 11 - 09:01 PM
Joe_F 02 Aug 11 - 09:03 PM
Bill D 02 Aug 11 - 09:29 PM
Goose Gander 02 Aug 11 - 10:47 PM
katlaughing 02 Aug 11 - 11:35 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 11 - 08:34 AM
Bill D 03 Aug 11 - 11:49 AM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 11 - 11:56 AM
frogprince 03 Aug 11 - 12:09 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 11 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,Eliza 03 Aug 11 - 12:51 PM
Little Hawk 03 Aug 11 - 01:56 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 11 - 02:06 PM
frogprince 03 Aug 11 - 02:12 PM
Ebbie 03 Aug 11 - 02:21 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 11 - 02:26 PM
gnu 03 Aug 11 - 02:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 11 - 02:41 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 11 - 02:44 PM
saulgoldie 03 Aug 11 - 02:49 PM
Bill D 03 Aug 11 - 06:03 PM
saulgoldie 03 Aug 11 - 06:48 PM
Little Hawk 03 Aug 11 - 07:41 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 11 - 07:46 PM
saulgoldie 03 Aug 11 - 08:04 PM
Little Hawk 03 Aug 11 - 08:05 PM
Little Hawk 03 Aug 11 - 08:12 PM
Bill D 03 Aug 11 - 08:19 PM
Little Hawk 03 Aug 11 - 08:32 PM
Little Hawk 03 Aug 11 - 08:35 PM
Ebbie 04 Aug 11 - 12:41 AM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 11 - 01:07 AM
Ebbie 04 Aug 11 - 02:46 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 04 Aug 11 - 03:55 AM
GUEST,Eliza 04 Aug 11 - 07:06 AM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 11 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 04 Aug 11 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Eliza 04 Aug 11 - 10:56 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 04 Aug 11 - 11:12 AM
GUEST,Eliza 04 Aug 11 - 11:27 AM
Ebbie 04 Aug 11 - 11:33 AM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 11 - 12:07 PM
Bill D 04 Aug 11 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,999 04 Aug 11 - 12:54 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 11 - 01:02 PM
Bill D 04 Aug 11 - 01:11 PM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 11 - 01:16 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 11 - 01:18 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 11 - 01:27 PM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 11 - 01:27 PM
gnu 04 Aug 11 - 01:51 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 11 - 01:56 PM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 11 - 01:58 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 11 - 02:04 PM
Bill D 04 Aug 11 - 04:08 PM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 11 - 04:22 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 11 - 04:30 PM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 11 - 04:37 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 11 - 05:19 PM
Bill D 04 Aug 11 - 06:02 PM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 11 - 06:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 11 - 02:56 AM
Bill D 05 Aug 11 - 03:31 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Aug 11 - 04:12 PM
Little Hawk 05 Aug 11 - 04:26 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Aug 11 - 05:10 PM
Little Hawk 05 Aug 11 - 05:18 PM
Bobert 05 Aug 11 - 05:42 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Aug 11 - 05:47 PM
Little Hawk 05 Aug 11 - 06:51 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Aug 11 - 06:58 PM
Neil D 06 Aug 11 - 01:28 AM
Ebbie 06 Aug 11 - 03:12 AM
GUEST,999 06 Aug 11 - 03:30 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Aug 11 - 03:35 PM
Bill D 06 Aug 11 - 03:51 PM

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Subject: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 10:43 AM

7 billion and counting

"Earth will become home to 7 billion people later this year, and most of the planet's growth will affect the developing countries the most, straining those regions' limited resources, a Harvard University professor said Thursday."

When I was in 6th grade, it was 2½ billion. Since I am now over 70 and in good health, I am now wondering if I will see the really serious symptoms of over population...(even beyond over fishing, water rationing, frantic emigration, and ethnic violence...etc.)

Oh...also, when I was a kid, they showed movies explaining how technology and automation would give us lots of 'free time' and 30 hr. workweeks. They failed to note that meant only for those who still HAD jobs.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: saulgoldie
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 10:53 AM

Well, for one thing, Earth cannot supply everyone with as much animal substance as we like. Eating animal substance is way more environmentally costly than eating vegetable matter. For one thing.

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 10:56 AM

What? You never heard of Soylent Green?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: saulgoldie
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 11:02 AM

Yes. It's, um, it's...Grandma??

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: olddude
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 11:05 AM

I thought you were talking about the national debt


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 11:16 AM

There is still enough room for every individual to have about a quarter acre - but then, who'd grow dinner?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 11:18 AM

Oops, sorry - a little over a fifth of an acre.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 11:21 AM

And, speaking of fruit...


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: saulgoldie
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 11:21 AM

And with everyone having "space" we could all be neighbors to some mountaintop removal or fracking activity. Oh, joy!

Sorry to say it, but I think that there are numerous "tipping points" that are dimming images in the rearview mirror. Earth will survive. Humans may survive. But their existence in 50 or more years will be unrecognizable to us from 2011.

To all of which I can only say, "Live the moment."

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Midchuck
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 11:37 AM

Well, for one thing, Earth cannot supply everyone with as much animal substance as we like. Eating animal substance is way more environmentally costly than eating vegetable matter.

Vegetables aren't food. Vegetables are what food eats.

P.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 01:41 PM

Nice line, Chuck... are you gonna help raise vegetables to feed the 'food' for the next 2 billion of us?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: pdq
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 02:07 PM

If the Earth's land were divided equally among the 7 billion human inhabitants, there would be 18 acres for each person.

Trouble is, nobody want to live in the undeveloped boonies.

All the new immigrants want to live in California, especially Orange County.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 02:44 PM

I don't know about that. There is a shitload in Atlanta. There are even some here.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 02:47 PM

We're all in a sense immigrants, as the original inhabitants of eg USA or UK were not our ancestors, for the most part.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: olddude
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 02:56 PM

Multiplying ?   Some catters haven't got the long division down yet


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 04:28 PM

Are you saying that there is division on the Mudcat?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:20 PM

Population control will control itself via a drastic drop in the food supply.

It is one of the horsemen


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:22 PM

Population will control itself,

There will be wars and rumors of wars...


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:31 PM

"We're all in a sense immigrants...

But that is hardly the point about immigration.... and immigration is not the real point of the thread. It is a side issue, and an important one, but if we get 10-12 billion people, there will be no place worth immigrating TO!

The earth will only support so many warm bodies in anything resembling comfort... and we long ago passed the point ('about' 1950) where it was even mathematically possible to provide for everyone..(water, food, access to amenities). Immigration problems are ONE aspect of the overall concern.... kind of like an indicator.
The universe does not care whether we prosper, or whether cockroaches win out. If WE care enough, we need to wake up and figure it all out.
Imagine an isolated island of, say 100 sq. miles, with good soil, adequate rain and vegetation... and 100 settlers. How many will the island support, and under what conditions? Easter Island, with primitive culture, found out the hard way that certain behavior won't work. Pitcairn Island still manages to keep going. What are the differences? How can we apply those models to Island Earth?

   Think about it.... you will not like some of the answers.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: GUEST,songbob
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:31 PM

I have a cartoon on my wall, with two panels. One, entitled, "Be Fruitful and Multiply," shows a crowd of people of many ethnicities. The other, entitled, "Now Divide," shows a single grocery bag with a loaf of bread and a few other items, and a lot of space around the bag.

It's a thought-provoking cartoon, for sure.

Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:37 PM

Be Fruitful and multiply...
pictures of the last of thier species, White Tiger, Panama tree frog, Tasmanian Woman, frozen Wooly Mammoth calf.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:48 PM

""Now Divide,"

Loaves and fishes 'may' have worked once.... I'm not holding my breath.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: gnu
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:56 PM

Don't worry. The rich are working on a solution.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:57 PM

At least when the end comes there will be plenty of long pig.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 06:30 PM

Looking through this thread and a few others, it's no wonder Jeri said she finds a lot to cry about these days. Maybe it's why I feel a slight depression, today.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 06:32 PM

What *I* feel is a bit of guilt for leaving my son this world...*I* will likely miss the worst of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 06:40 PM

On the bright side.

People today, on this continent and in Europe at least, and Japan, Australia and a few other places are far better off then even the kings of the past.

Chinese, Koreans and Indians are catching up.

We could all cut back a bit on our most wasteful practices and still be very well off.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: olddude
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 07:23 PM

I don't know about the fruit but most of us are pretty nutty in the head


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 07:24 PM

In nearly all developed countries, the birthrate is below the replacement level (2.1 children per woman). Countries like Italy, Japan and Russia are losing numbers and will be for the foreseeable future. The United States is the exception, but that for the most part is due to higher birthrates among Hispanics, both immigrants and native-born (check the latest Census figures). Birthrates in Mexico, however, have plummeted in recent years. There is an interesting dynamic going there, one I do not fully understand.

'Overpopulation' is a problem that will take care of itself with economics development, education, rights for women, etc. No reason for a Leviathan state, global one-child policies, or any other such nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 07:27 PM

No reason for a Leviathan state, one-child policies.

Except in China?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Midchuck
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 07:32 PM

China's reproduction rate has fallen so low that they're going to be in DEEP trouble in a generation or so. Fewer people of working age to pay into the welfare system than the old people that will be drawing out of it.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 08:27 PM

Midchuck, They can always outsource to unemployed US workers


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 08:41 PM

Me thinkz we need more fruities and less multipliers...

never mind...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: saulgoldie
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 08:43 PM

"China's reproduction rate has fallen so low that they're going to be in DEEP trouble in a generation or so. Fewer people of working age to pay into the welfare system than the old people that will be drawing out of it."

Not only that, but the ratio of men to women is also skewed too heavily on the "man" side. Seems female children are not as valued; infanticide and selective abortions "take care of it". That means they have more "fodder" for wars or to work in the mines.

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: olddude
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 08:49 PM

I finished the take aways, but before I move on to multiplying I gotta get the gazintas down first. You know 2 gazinta 10 5 times or something like that


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 09:01 PM

It will **ALWAYS** be an awkward problem when a country's birth rate drops faster than the older generation dies. When there are so many senior citizens that it takes a big chunk of the economy and energy, there are sacrifices to be made....unless.... never mind.

This, however sad, is not as bad as unceasing growth. We cannot have 153 billion people on the Earth!

"'Overpopulation' is a problem that will take care of itself with economics development, education, rights for women, etc."

   Yes, overpopulation will 'adjust' itself eventually, but NOT in the reasonable, placid way you suggest. We humans as a group do NOT take the long view, and most can't see further than their next meal, convenience or perceived immediate threat. We build in flood plains, on mountain sides, in earthquake zones and pour crap into the rivers until the rivers are almost dead. We over fish, use chemicals, and blame shortages on 'them'.
Even IF we ALL now agreed to reduce populations to sane levels, it would take decades to approach a 'steady state'... and we ALL are not about to do it.

   I'm sorry to paint a bleak picture, but channeling Dr. Pangloss (look it up) will not solve anything. "Oh, technology will solve it... technology always has!" ignores the fact that technology has never faced this level of universal dangers. It must have been nice when "more room" just meant moving West and subduing the natives, and "more food" just meant cutting down the jungle/forest and tapping ancient aquifers ...(look up Ogallala_Aquifer.)


"When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember why you wanted to drain the swamp."


Trusting 'the experts' to take care of those alligators is dangerous...


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Joe_F
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 09:03 PM

Let's step back & ask: What can we say in the abstract about the ideal population of the earth?

The ratio of the size of the earth to the size of a human body is about 10^7. (The meter, a human-size unit, was originally defined as 10^{-7} times the quadrant of the earth thru Paris.) That is the order of magnitude of the number of people who, laid end to end, could circle the earth. It is also the order of magnitude of the number who, on rafts in the sea, could all be out of sight of each other (the private-horizon population). We are way past that now.

The square of that number is 10^14. That is the number of people required to cover the earth one layer deep, perhaps leaving a little room to roll over. On a logarithmic scale, at 10^10, we are not quite half way there.

The cube of 10^7 is 10^21. That is the order of magnitude of the population resulting from the conversion of the entire earth into human bodies. There are ethical as well as technical difficulties with such an outcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 09:29 PM

Interesting computations, Joe F. Kinda hard to visualize, but still makes you think.

The people whom I trust have computed ocean productivity, arable land, accessible fresh water, safe living areas...etc., and estimated that the 'optimum population' is somewhere around 2-2 1/2 billion. We passed that in the 1950s. We who post on this forum are in reasonably good shape....in Somalia, they are not.... and there is little 'reasonable' land left to build on in S. California.

(this page goes into some detail about calculations)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 10:47 PM

"Yes, overpopulation will 'adjust' itself eventually, but NOT in the reasonable, placid way you suggest."

Are you saying the so-called "developing countries" (where most population growth is occurring) are incapable of reaching the level of material and cultural development found in, say, Denmark or Japan?

"Even IF we ALL now agreed to reduce populations to sane levels, it would take decades to approach a 'steady state'... and we ALL are not about to do it."

Populations are either dropping or soon will be dropping in developed countries.   They're dropping in many developing countries, too. The birthrate in the middle east is half what it was a few decades ago. Mexico's birthrate is now roughly equivalent to the United States. If you were really concerned (and not merely wallowing in misanthropy) you would want to see more economic development and modernization, not less.

"The people whom I trust have computed ocean productivity, arable land, accessible fresh water, safe living areas...etc., and estimated that the 'optimum population' is somewhere around 2-2 1/2 billion."

Those numbers are meaningless. Thomas Malthus thought he had the game figured out, too.

"We cannot have 153 billion people on the Earth!"

We never will. Point?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 11:35 PM

Thanks for the smile, olddude...I'll have to watch those gazintas!

Saul, China won't have much fodder for wars if they don't quit killing the girl babies off. There is now a shortage of marriageable aged women, so men have no one with which to produce offspring.

Interesting article from 2008 about China and India's lack of women in Scientific American.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 08:34 AM

Yeah! China only has what? 300,000,000 fertile women? What ever will they do?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 11:49 AM

Are you saying the so-called "developing countries" .... are incapable of reaching the level of material and cultural development found in, say, Denmark or Japan? Yes...I am. The people themselves, given the right conditions, 'could'. I am saying that they are unlikely to ever get the right conditions.(VERY long list of reasons, dealing with geography, culture, competition...etc.) They can do 'better' if general population in the rest of the world stabilizes, and I see stabilization as moving far too slowly.



"Populations are either dropping or soon will be dropping in developed countries. " Source? Population rates of increase are dropping in places....population itself is still rising.

"We cannot have 153 billion people on the Earth!"

"We never will. Point?"
Then how many will we have? 44 billion? Do you think that if we reach 7-8 billion, we will suddenly quit reproducing?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 11:56 AM

By 2035 Moores Law will have advanced us to such a point where every bit of silicon and much of the carbon (thereby solving climate change) on the planet is converted to multigiga hertz/bit processor/memory and humans will abandon corporeal bodies and become part of "the cloud." Of course we will have to pay Bill Gates to license ourselves as software. But that is a small price to pay for immortality.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 12:09 PM

"China only has what? 300,000,000 fertile women? What ever will they do?"

It may be possible for those women to maintain the population. But unless China departs to a significant degree from the "normal" practice of one of each gender in marriage (nothing to do with same-sex marriage in this context) they are going to have a miserable social situation with a high percent of males with no mates available.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 12:21 PM

True enough. But they could still field the biggest Army the planet has ever seen. In fact, the surplus males would probably be easier to recruit.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 12:51 PM

I often wonder if a deadly and ferocious virus will arrive,a mutation of, say, the flu', and (as in the Black Death) reduce the population of the Earth by one third. Our greatest enemies, so I believe, are the viruses.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 01:56 PM

The problem isn't too many people. The problem is that a few have a great deal and a great many have very little.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:06 PM

slain by the putrefactive and disease bacteria against which their systems were unpre- pared; slain as the red weed was being slain; slain, after all man's devices had failed, by the humblest things that God, in his wisdom, has put upon this earth.

War of the Worlds - H G Wells


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:12 PM

L.H., I would hope you realize that most folks around "here" agree about the gross inequality, and those who nurture it. But people here are relating to the plain fact that we don't have anyone around who can divide up a finite number of loaves and fishes to provide basic sustenance for more than ....?....people.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:21 PM

"This, however sad, is not as bad as unceasing growth. We cannot have 153 billion people on the Earth!

"'Overpopulation' is a problem that will take care of itself with economics development, education, rights for women, etc." Bill D

"I often wonder if a deadly and ferocious virus will arrive,a mutation of, say, the flu', and (as in the Black Death) reduce the population of the Earth by one third. Our greatest enemies, so I believe, are the viruses." Guest/ Eliza

The inevitability of decimation or worse is my belief. Boom and Bust has always been the controlling factor in many species, evidenced every few years all around us.

I see no reason at all why that phenomenon would not apply to us.

And then, after the shock and the mourning, people all over the globe will likely draw huge breaths of relief.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:26 PM

And then, after the shock and the mourning, people all over the globe will likely draw huge breaths of relief.

I don't know about that. but the rich will profit from disaster.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: gnu
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:33 PM

Kinda related. Hans Rosling's 200 Countries, 200 Years, 4 Minutes - The Joy of Statistics


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:41 PM

There is a finite amount of arable land.
Population can keep doubling, but food production can not.
Already rain forest is being sacrificed to grow more food.
Habitats for other life, and biodiversity, are disappearing fast.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:44 PM

Excellent Gnu.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: saulgoldie
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:49 PM

Well, another 20 or 50 million years of evolution oughtta "fix" the damage humans have left behind.

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 06:03 PM

"The problem isn't too many people. The problem is that a few have a great deal and a great many have very little."

That bit of over-simplification is one of the reasons so little is being done. The problem with it is that the central point is true...trivially true. Yes, there is gross inequality... but if everyone suddenly agreed to share and divide assets fairly, there would STILL be too many people! Everyone would discover that there was not enough resources to provide the desired life-style. And that would ensure that any 'sharing agreement' would quickly dissolve.

   Part of the reason is that there will always be waste...if I have leftover rice, I can't mail it to some starving family in China. We can do 'better', but we can't get anywhere near 100%. Water is a worse problem. If all the floods in Iowa could be diverted to Somalia, we get somewhere...but....
   The fact is, even the *haves* are running short. Do YOU remember when canned Tuna was really good? I do. Now it is barely palatable. In 1975, I ate top quality, relatively cheap Salmon in Seattle & Juneau. Now they are frantic to preserve some semblance of Salmon breeding areas and migrations.....and there are hundreds of other examples. (The fight for a share of the water in the Colorado River never ends)... and did anyone look at that link to the Ogallah aquifer? They are mining water...much faster than it is replenished.

All this is 'partially' a result of "too many people". All that careful use will do, if no reduction in population is achieved, is prolong the inevitable. Look at Easter Island and apply logic.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: saulgoldie
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 06:48 PM

Humans are a very "dirty" species. Wasteful and destructive. Do you know what Thoreau *really* did to Walden? (There was an NPR story about it recently. Can't find it just now.)

Once we "conquered" our short life span, it was inevitable that we would eventually doom ourselves, and many other species along with us. Religion told us to keep multiplying. Scientific understanding suggested that we learn to coexist sustainably with the other brother and sister species of the planet. Guess which "voice" we listened to.

I think ahmonna have another drink. Time grows short.

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 07:41 PM

Bill, I am in no way opposed to serious efforts to reduce the birth rate around the world. Realize that, and cease tilting against imagined windmills, because that is not what I was offering you. I'd talk at greater length about it if we were alone...at a coffee table...but we're not.

We are facing many serious problems, and overpopulation is just one of them.

saulgoldie -

It is illusory and unproductive, in my opinion, for people to engage in negative "isn't humanity dreadful?" diatribes. It doesn't help anyone. What I would say to someone who has such a dark view of humanity is, "Well, if you feel that way, then why are YOU still here? If you really believe that human beings are intrinsically dirty, wasteful, and destructive...if your basic philosophical contention is that we are bad creatures...then do the world and yourself a favor, live up to your own negative dogma, and kill yourself. After all, as long as you're still here, you are part of the insoluble problem you seem to believe in. Take action in the one way you can! ;-) Wipe yourself off the planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 07:46 PM

>>It is illusory and unproductive, in my opinion, for people to engage in negative "isn't humanity dreadful?" diatribes. It doesn't help anyone. What I would say to someone who has such a dark view of humanity is, "Well, if you feel that way, then why are YOU still here? If you really believe that human beings are intrinsically dirty, wasteful, and destructive...if your basic philosophical contention is that we are bad creatures...then do the world and yourself a favor, live up to your own negative dogma, and kill yourself. After all, as long as you're still here, you are part of the insoluble problem you seem to believe in. Take action in the one way you can! ;-) Wipe yourself off the planet.<<

Putting the shoe on the other foot.
I feel just that way about you when you express you defeatist politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: saulgoldie
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 08:04 PM

On a personal level, Hawk. Do you have any notion how irresponsible it is to suggest to anyone that they off themself? It is beyond the pale. You have no idea who is reading it or what their tendencies might be. Suicide is no joke. Nor does it belong in any discourse, ANY! Shame on you, sir.

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 08:05 PM

It's not defeatist to me, Jack, because I envision our capacity to create a completely different kind of political system far better than what we have now...as opposed to continuing playing around in the existing game (which is division of the public by heavily financed political parties). It's the existing game as it is NOW that I absolutely don't believe in. I'd be defeatist if I didn't think there were any viable alternatives to the present party-based political games that are going on.

I'm like someone in the 1600s who says that the game of hereditary monarchy has outlived its time, should be dropped, and that we need to do something else entirely. Most people at that time would have been aghast at such an assertion, and they would have called me something even worse than "defeatist", they would have called me a "rebel", a "traitor", or a "republican"...but merely because they...just like most people NOW....were incapable of thinking outside the box of their own current conventions and their own time.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 08:12 PM

I think, saulgoldie, that it should be clear enough in context, and on the basis of many, many past posts I've made on this forum, that I was not seriously or literally encouraging you to do any harm to yourself at all, but I was making a satirical point about the uselessness of totally negative thinking about the human race. I assumed you were conscious enough of both me and yourself to read between the lines and get that.

I would definitely not literally suggest to anyone that they should kill themselves. As you have indicated, it's not right to do that.

I think ALL human beings are very valuable, and that applies to each one of us. It naturally applies to you to. I was making a strong suggestion to you not to devalue yourself and others in the way that you appeared to be doing in that post to which I first responded.

I can't stop you from interpreting my post in the worst way possible, but I can assure you that I did not intend it in that way. And that's my word. You have a choice now to assume I'm a liar...or to believe what I have just said. That's up to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 08:19 PM

Little Hawk... ok,re: " Realize that, and cease tilting against imagined windmills, because that is not what I was offering you"

But what you POSTED was that generalization.. I reply to both what IS said and what was NOT said....hundreds of people may read this at some point, and I want as much info reflecting my viewpoint reflected.

Not windmills... hazy ambiguity. I have a coffee table if you're ever down this way....and I even make good coffee...or tea.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 08:32 PM

Too bad we live so far apart, Bill, cos I'd love to get together at the local cafe and talk about all this stuff in depth.

One of the problems with (organized) religion is this: People in that religion get hung up on thing that were said a VERY long time ago...by someone who lived under radically different conditions with radically different challenges...and they just follow it literally without considering that it was applicable then...but it isn't now.

When those lines about being fruitful and multiplying were first written, they made a great deal of sense. They were written in a culture of scattered tribes, a limited population living in a world that still had vast possibilities for human expansion, vast untapped natural resources, no technology, little pollution, etc.

It made SENSE for those people to be encouraged to be fruitful and multiply! Just as it made sense for Indians in sparsely populated North America to do the same.

It doesn't make sense now, because the conditions of human society now are radically different, and we're running out of water, arable land, and other vital resources.

So....if the very same philosopher types who brought forth that exhortation in their time were living NOW...they'd probably have something quite different to say to the masses. Their priorities and their ideas would be different.

It is people's clinging to old ideas and their reluctance to look for new ones that is the problem...not just religion.

Understand what I'm saying?

I've been interested in spiritual philosophy since my early 20s, study it all the time, find some good in ALL the religions...and some misunderstanding in most of them too...but I focus on the good that's in them....just as I focus on the good that's in science, technology, and non-religious thought. I am not an enemy of any of them.

I think people are of tremendous value, and I mean each and every human being. I think we are capable of creating a magnificent society all over his planet, if we can see beyond the most immediate and selfish concerns. I am probably in favor of pretty much every progressive notion that you or saulgoldie are in favour of...and I think we CAN triumph over our weaknesses and our darker side. I think human beings are magnificent in their potential. I think they are intrinsically good, not bad.

I was disturbed by the extreme negativity of saul's comments about the human race on this planet, and that's why I responded as sharply to his comments as I did. I don't like to see people running the human race down in that way, even if they ARE doing it for what they see as idealistic reasons.

I don't think we're miserable, dirty, and destructive. I think we are each valuable beyond measure and capable of greatness.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 08:35 PM

meant to say: "all over this planet"...not "his planet".


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 12:41 AM

"In 1975, I ate top quality, relatively cheap Salmon in Seattle & Juneau. Now they are frantic to preserve some semblance of Salmon breeding areas and migrations" Bill D

Bill, I think you'd find that you would still find top quality, relatively cheap salmon in Juneau. We haven't done to our salmon what they have done 'down south'. Personally I place primary blame on the multitudinous dams down there. What were they thinking?

"We are facing many serious problems, and overpopulation is just one of them." Little Hawk

I think it may be closer to the truth, LH, if you said that overpopulation is THE basic problem. A great many issues simply cannot be resolved if the population keeps multiplying.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:07 AM

But I don't think it's THE basic problem, Ebbie. I think it's one of a number of major problems, but I don't think it's the biggest single problem among them, because this planet is quite capable of supporting the present population and giving a good life to everyone and NOT destroying the ecosphere...IF we were not disunited and devoted to war, exploitation, greed, and ruthless competition.

If we dealt with a number of other societal problems which result from our severe disunity and our addiction to greed for money, then we could very readily stabilize the world population, in my opinion, and provide for everyone too. It is human disunity, competition, and strife that makes it impossible right now to resolve a whole bunch of acute problems we are facing.

Now, consider this: people here can yell all they want about how there are too many people on the planet, but what are they actually prepared to do about it? They are AMONG those "too many people". But they're no better than anyone else is.

If they don't think they can do anything about it, then why are they yelling about it here? Just to vent? Or just to feel righteous? Or just to have someone to blame? Or just to have something to talk about? Or just to have the thrill of being "right" about something when they think so many others are "wrong" about it?

Those above reasons, I think, are the main reasons driving people to go on and on bitching about stuff on Mudcat. They're not here to do a damn thing about it, they're just here to yell about something, get a rush by doing so, and feel better than somebody else.

And then what? Then nothing, that's what. Just a bunch of hot air and ill will aimed at someone, anyone that they can blame for their general state of angst.

It's called "recreational outrage", and the Net is absolutely polluted with it. Yup, there sure are a lot of angry people out there, and they're looking for something to rave about.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 02:46 AM

Oh good grief, Little Hawk. Listen to yourself: you fit that profile to a scary T.

People/Mudcatters who point out the disastrous path that humankind is following do not exempt themselves from that. Stabilizing the global population is not possible without intervention of some sort whether it's disease or some other calamity. You/We can greatly reduce the rate of live births but 7 billion people, of whom at least two-thirds are producing offspring- well, you're going to end up with many more people on the planet than if there were a similar rate among a population of, say, 6 billion.

As for "...this planet is quite capable of supporting the present population and giving a good life to everyone and NOT destroying the ecosphere...IF we were not disunited and devoted to war, exploitation, greed, and ruthless competition."

Sadly, if we had no wars we'd have even more people of breeding age.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 03:55 AM

Here in the UK they seem to have no problem hearing that message. As it currently stands, any young tart who gets knocked up is rewarded with a free house, no council tax and a very generous weekly salary from the Social Security.

It has become a profession over there. Most graduate to having a fine selection of ill reared brats to various absent fathers and receive a reward for their whorish lifestyles.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 07:06 AM

Bluesman, I can understand your view, but have you come up with an alternative remedy for illegitimate births to unsupported women? ( I would never call them 'tarts', or describe their lifestyle as 'whorish', that is cruel.) We have to house them and their babies. One can hardly resurrect the dreadful 'Magdalene Homes' Irish system, and one can't take a child from its mother.

Regarding the interesting discussion on the capability or otherwise of the Earth to support all its inhabitants if war were to cease, I only know a little, about Africa. It has been said that if, for example, Congo were to organise itself and wipe out corruption, political struggles, wars etc etc, there are more than enough resources there in minerals, rich agricultural land, and labour to feed most of Central Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 10:26 AM

The phrase "a drop in the bucket" comes to mind. But it seems inadequate. What percentage of the worlds excess population growth stems from the children of unwed welfare mothers in Britain?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 10:45 AM

Eliza,We could start by making it less attractive for these young women to view mothering lots of children as a lucrative profession.

There isn't one member on here living in the UK that doesn't see or know the group I speak of.

They stand in line at the post office on a Monday in their track suit bottoms exchanging stories about the previous Saturday night and who pulled and who went home with who. They can afford a great social life and moan continuously about their unwanted brats . They don't want work, it is take take take of the tax payer.

We hear in the media of "deprived" families. These are families in which the two parents work full time and pay all their bills. Unlike the scum that leech off the state.

House them in hostels of blocks of flats, keep them out of decent housing developments. I see loads of them around here. Kids thrown out on street from all hours, their mothers out Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights with skirts up around their arse, bring home guys for a bit of How's your father.

Tramps, nothing more than cheap tarts.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 10:56 AM

Bluesman, I do feel you're right in that these women and their children should perhaps be housed in a more supervised situation, (eg hostel or communal block) where the welfare of the little ones is more closely monitored. (It is chiefly the children's predicament which troubles me) Maybe guidance and education could be offered, with a view to eventually working and supporting their families. I wonder however if you're combining two objections, in that you also seem to disapprove of the women's dress and sexual lifestyle. Having many sexual partners, wearing provocative clothing etc is entirely up to the individual isn't it? If these ladies were not getting pregnant, would you then be okay with their dress, morals etc? If not, you are judging something which you have no right to judge.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 11:12 AM

They are clones of each other and lack morals. Young girls should be out enjoying themselves and wearing whatever fashion they chose. What we are looking at here is girls as young as 17 deliberately going out to become pregnant so they can obtain their own party house and see the kids as a means to a lifestyle.

Believe me, I know what I am talking about. I have two nieces who openly admit they became pregnant just to obtain their own homes. Both said "we were not going on at school, so what do you want us to do, take some crapping job" great attitude, would you not agree ?

Also, they admit they dress to attract, saying, yeah, get them out on show if you have them, the completion is fierce out there.

Their families should be made to maintain them.

So are you saying we the tax payer should maintain them and their beer tokens ? Beer tokens are the names my niece calls her two ill reared brats. One didn't pay her gas bill and they would not cut her off due to three kids in the house, her cry of "I am a single mother" scares off official looking payment as far as I can see. I will not hide the fact that both my nieces have been around the track more times than a greyhound. Seven kids between them and no father on the scene for any of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 11:27 AM

I agree that's it's hard on us taxpayers to be funding the idle. Is there a way we could insist that these women work? But there aren't many unskilled jobs out there, and they would need qualifications (funding again) I believe in USA there have been moves afoot to get people off Welfare. If (as some suggest) one merely stopped their Benefits, they'd sell drugs or turn to prostitution in order to fund their lifestyle. Many do this anyway, in addition to their Benefits cheque. Believe me, I've met dozens of these young women visiting their menfolk in prisons around the UK, towing little ones along. I've talked at length to them while waiting to be called to the Visits Room. (I did Prison Visiting for years) They have a strange (to me) view of life, and have never been correctly 'socialised'. They are a different type of person altogether to us workers, almost alien. But this thread is about population, not the workshy. I'm sorry if I've 'drifted'!


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 11:33 AM

Wow. If the situation in the UK is as bad as described, it appears to me that the generation before this latest one is the one that is uneducated and without moral standards. And I don't mean *sexual* morals.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 12:07 PM

I don't see either Eliza or Bluesman saying it is a great portion of the population.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 12:48 PM

Well, I went to bed rather than look up more stuff.... and I wake to this:

"... this planet is quite capable of supporting the present population and giving a good life to everyone and NOT destroying the ecosphere.."

I hardly know where to begin..... but that is just simply incorrect. Refer to my yesterday's post of 6:03PM. Even if it WERE mathematically true, the distribution system could not handle moving the necessary resources.... and in 50 years, it will be worse.

You also, LH, began with "But I don't think it's THE basic problem, Ebbie. I think it's one of a number of major problems, but I don't think it's the biggest single problem among them,"

When you describe the "major problems"...like air pollution, water pollution and shortage, war, destruction of habitat, global climate change (no matter what the cause), new diseases....etc., etc., they all sound so horrible compared to the simple phrase 'population increase'. Wow... after all, it's just *people*, and we LIKE people...the more people, the better the odds of someone inventing new cures and technology? Right?

*sigh*... what most fail to see is that 'population' is a keystone... a common 'limiting factor'. *IF* we solve all those nasty environmental problems tomorrow, too many people would still overwhelm us in a short time....and it isn't even the case that we COULD solve most of them with overpopulation uncontrolled! "Loss of habitat" for animals is an inevitable side-effect of the need for habitat for 'people'. "Pollution" of various sorts can be reduced in various ways thru recycling, filters, new cleaner energy sources..etc. but SOME pollution is inevitable, and the more people, the less effect those techniques have! We will still need landfills, water, food sources, habitat (for us AND animals)...etc. (No, we cannot "just build higher" there are physical limits to height, as well as 'places'to put buildings.... and digging down is even more trouble.)

The other side of all those dire predictions? *IF* we had a 'steady state' population of, say, 2 billion, with the technology we have now- plus what that poor, limited 2 billion could create, we COULD have enough water, food, parks, living space, etc.... and 2 billion could eventually be served mostly by clean energy sources! In Nature, when we do not interfere, populations of animals and plants adjust themselves..(yes, occasionally leading to extinctions)...). What we don't seen to 'get' is that we ARE a part of Nature...just a weird part that only became a factor in the last 5000-10,000 years or so. Elephants in Africa have fewer open, natural feeding grounds, so they raid farmer's fields and trample what they don't eat. Hillsides all over the world..(not just in S. California) are destabilized as people build in precarious places, and a little extra rain and down they come! And fires happen where fire engines can't easily navigate...and pumping water UP to houses on those pretty mountain settlements is expensive!

   I could go on....but you probably just skimmed this anyway.

I repeat... population is the linchpin. If it is not controlled, all the other 'solutions'have a limited shelf-life. I am **72** years old. I remember when they told us that diseases would be wiped out and we'd have an eternal food source from the oceans!! They have now wiped out *2* diseases...and are fighting over what food sources are still working in the oceans.

Now... should I start on the theoretical solutions to overpopulation? :>(

(I know one, but the screams of protest would deafen you. (No..not "Soylent Green")

--------------------------------------------------

Gee, Ebbie...maybe I oughta find SOME way to get back to Juneau for one more serving of that good Salmon..


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 12:54 PM

I would not put it past many major governments of the world to address the over population problem more directly--on someone else's over population problem. The topic is not new, but ZPG didn't work in a global sense, so what's left?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:02 PM

Don't the fisherman in BC complain because Alaskans are catching the salmon breeding stock on its way to there and don't the people in Washington and Oregon say the same about those in BC?

In many cases, human population is not the problem. Human greed is.

No 7 billion people couldn't live as we do in the USA, But 7 billion could have enough food and water, a clean place to live and access to cell phones and the Internet.(Think smaller homes, balcony gardens and composting toilets to make soil for biofuels.) Our lifestyle is wasteful and most of our luxuries do not enhance our quality of life.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:11 PM

Yep, 999... we have seen previous attempts to "limit someone else's over population problem."

ZPG didn't work in a global sense because we are hard-wired to reproduce. It is Nature's way of assuring continuity... but in the 'lower' animals it is self-adjusting. WE seem to think we don't have to play by the same rules. We 'decide' things and invent metaphysical justifications for our own 'beingness'.

What's left? *shrug* .. universal, random contraception. 'X'% of 12 year old girls get an implant... which may or may not be a real contraceptive. (It is much easier to deal with a few eggs than billions of sperm)

Yes..I see ALL the problems with trying a program like that...and no, I don't believe it will happen... at least not in my lifetime. When we HAVE 14 billion people...*shrug*. who knows what people will be willing to accept.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:16 PM

JACK!!!!!!!! WE AGREE!!!!!! Your point is exactly my point!

Gad.

Break out the champagne.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:18 PM

Looking at the experience of industrial countries, the best way to cut population growth is through economic growth, increasing lifespan and by ensuring that people have something other than their children to see them through old age.

And before you go sterilizing 12 year olds, from a biological point of view, increased competition for the right to breed and killing off those who cannot breed would both be better for the species.

Thank God our values are not purely Darwinistic.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:27 PM

How much of the planet's resources are wasted on men with empty nests buying Harlies and boats and little red sports cars?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:27 PM

Right on again!!!

What's happening here? Has there been some sort of Cosmic Shift? ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: gnu
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:51 PM

Anyone been following the Japan Nuclear Disaster thread? That oughta stem the problem a tad. Not to mention the Gulf oil spill. And Global Swarming, well....


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:56 PM

the Japan Nuclear Disaster just made other parts of Japan marginally more crowded.

Gulf Oil spill drove up the price of non gulf seafood.

Global warming will likewise make certain places more crowded.

What is required is a war on old people. Not the greatest generation mind you. We owe them. But them baby boomers! Look out!


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:58 PM

The "problem" is resolvable. All people have to do is start operating sanely in regards to each other...and in regards to the rest of the planet. And that's a multi-layered approach. It isn't sane to seek money profit first and everything else after that. Nor is it sane to make war on other people because they are culturally different from you or they have something you'd like to take away from them.

Sane individuals don't do stuff like that...but governments and business entities do it all the time. And they get away with it, don't they? In fact, the ordinary public doesn't seem to know what to do about it...or they just can't keep up with the flow of marketing and political propaganda, so they get swept along in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 02:04 PM

Nope all them breeders are gonna need diapers and they are gonna need razors (male and female kind) to attract each other. No. The still need the corporations. It the old and sick that are not needed. Darwin Rocks!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:08 PM

"Sane individuals don't do stuff like that.."

But greedy insanity is often the way to power and influence! We (*ahem*) sane ones aren't willing to push & elbow to the top in order to promote sanity.

"...from a biological point of view, increased competition for the right to breed and killing off those who cannot breed would both be better for the species."

*grin*...oh...right. I'll write my congressman and suggest it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:22 PM

"But greedy insanity is often the way to power and influence!"

Yes, Bill! ;-D And that is a key problem with how our society is set up, isn't it? Furthermore, our society is set up to conceal what's really going on with most of the money most of the time. For instance, people don't know what a corporation really paid for the stuff they buy at the store, do they? If they did, there'd probably be one hell of a reaction! And they don't know how much the bosses are earning and how much of it goes offshore into tax havens, do they? Again...if they knew, there'd be hell to pay. And they don't know the real cost of the wars their government is fighting. And they don't know about the payoffs, graft, and favours that are given between government and business. And they don't understand the true nature of the Federal Reserve. Etc.

Things are set up in order to conceal most of what's going on with money, because "what the people don't know won't hurt them". Well, it does hurt them. And very badly.

That's a much more important problem than overpopulation OR organized religion (which is both good and bad...depending on which part of it you choose to focus on).


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:30 PM

Oh Great! Bill wants to Sterilize 12 year old and Little Hawk wants to wait until everyone is sane.

If this is any indication the Debt problem is way easier to solve than the population problem!

>>"...from a biological point of view, increased competition for the right to breed and killing off those who cannot breed would both be better for the species."

*grin*...oh...right. I'll write my congressman and suggest it.<<

It would put the Tea Party out of business. But I doubt that AARP would sign on.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:37 PM

I'm not waiting for anything, Jack. I'm living life now. And mostly enjoying it. I hope that everyone makes the best possible use of their time here and manages to evolve into a wiser and happier person...but I don't necessarily expect it! I accept the fact that things are not perfect now, and probably never will be, but I hope that they might improve as time goes by.

The debt problem could be solved by taking away the power of banks to invent more money out of thin air, cancelling the existing national debt with is frankly unpayable, and starting all over again with a completely new currency system, one that is 100% transparent (meaning no financial transaction can be hidden from the public or from anyone else). Everything would have to be done in the open. No creation of vast amounts of phony money by the banks...no enrichment of lending institutions by creating phony money (in the form of debt) and charging the society (meaning the public) interest for it.

That's not going to happen! ;-D But it would solve the debt problem if it were done, and it would have to be done elsewhere too...not just in the USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 05:19 PM

Change that to "Little Hawk" thinks the only solution is to hope that everyone becomes sane at the same time, But he is not even doing that.

His solution to the debt crisis is remarkably similar to my tongue in cheek suggestion about population. But there must be a more humane way to remove the burden of the infertile on society than facilitating a financial collapse which would by definition dissolve all savings and pensions.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:02 PM

"Bill wants to Sterilize 12 year old(s)"...wants? Nawwww...but it might be fair.


Slightly fairer than ".. increased competition for the right to breed and killing off those who cannot breed..", and would not materially change the demographics or favor any ethnic group...if done right. But of course, every group would suspect that it was NOT done fairly, and would fight it. And most religious groups would assert it "subverts God's plan"... as if God WANTED us to ruin the Earth while "having dominion over it."

I assume we'll just continue to beg & plead with folks to limit family size.... and have the same classes pay attention, which WILL materially change the demographics.

You see, this ability to 'think' and reflect on the problem is a mixed blessing. We are capable of designing a solution, but at the same time capable of using flawed logic that supports our own 'tribe' or self.

"Of course it was a just war...my son died in it!"

    Nietzsche, "Also Sprach Zarathustra"


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:03 PM

It would be done in such a way that all savings and pensions would be legally guaranteed by the government and would be issued in new currency in the existing financial institutions where the public presently has their pensions and savings. No one in the ordinary public would lose their money, but the bankers would lose their ability to lend out vastly more money than they really have and grow rich off the interest...and the national debt would be cleared.

Furthermore, no one would be left in destitution. Everyone under the new system I envision would be given a constitutional right to have basic accomodation, food and basic necessities at the level required for human dignity and survival. Many jobs would be created to achieve that. Everyone would also have free access to education, right through to university level, if they wanted it, and if they perservered and did well at it, then they would receive academic standing accordingly with the usual certificates of graduation and course completion. That's investing in the people! And it would pay off in the long run.

Furthermore, everyone would have equal access to free and modern health care when and if they need it. No questions asked. The sick would be healed, and they would not have to pay for it.

Everyone would also have a constitutional right to a decently paying job, full-time or part-time as required...if they wanted it...and if they did the work satisfactorily. Many new jobs could be provided by improving the domestic infrastructure and repairing environmental damage and other desirable work projects.

None of the above would be done for dollar profit, but it would ALL be done to make society a happier, safer, more prosperous place.

Overseas military bases on other nations' territories would be shut down. All national military forces would be returned to their own soil. A world justice system would be set up to establish equal wages and educational opportunities right across the globe, and to enforce the rights of nations and communities through a multi-national force (if necessary).

Now....none of the above can happen unless people get serious about getting along with each other and helping each other, rather than just pursuing money and power at someone else's expense.

It would require a revolution in human thought.

It can be done. All it takes is the vision and the will to do it. And the courage....


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 02:56 AM

Species are going extinct at a rate that means we are living in a major extinction event.
There have only been 5 others in the history of the planet.
We are the cause, and it is accelerating.
http://www.dr-evans.com/advancedbiology/sixthextinction.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 03:31 PM

We are a 'major' cause... sometimes a direct cause, sometimes only a catalyst. One of the inevitable effect of increasing numbers of 2-legged bipeds is that they seek out new places to live.....ask the Amazon rain forest, and they seek places for roads and places to build military installations... ask the Hindu Kush.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 04:12 PM

When I visited the UK in 2001 I had conversation with some Kashmiri Pakistanis whose political goal was to separate from Pakistan so that the Kashmiris could have a larger percentage of the wealth of "their" land. Knowing a bit of the history of the region (having seen Ghandi among other things) I asked if their ancestors had been part of the exodus from India that formed Pakistan. It turned out that it had. I asked don't the other Pakistanis who settled elsewhere deserve a share of that bounty. They said. "No."

It answered the question in my mind about whether the problem was population or human nature ie greed.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 04:26 PM

Yes, the problem is human nature...meaning greed...and greed is a result of fear (fear of not having "enough" of whatever it is that you think you need...and that could be land, food, water, security, love, possessions, respect, power, etc.).

Human nature has two sides: a loving side and a fearful side.

When the fearful side wins out over the loving side, that's when the trouble begins.

Love sees that there definitely is "enough" for everybody on this planet and shares it out on a pretty equal basis. Fear sees that there isn't enough for everybody and reacts by hoarding, concealing, stockpiling, denying, and NOT sharing on a pretty equal basis, but grabbing all one can get for oneself...or one's nation, group or family.

The latter tactic is leading us continually into societal decay and disaster.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:10 PM

The former tactic has almost never worked for more than 2 people not related by marriage or blood.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:18 PM

You think not? I think it has worked every single time a group, a society, or a nation has made a positive advance that benefited most or all of the people affected. And millions of such advances have been made, many of them in our lifetimes. We ARE capable of rising above fear and moving into love as the prime motivator of our society.

In fact, that is exactly the sort of vision that Mr Obama held forth in his 2008 campaign...and people responded to it with enormous enthusiasm and elected him. That shows that there's a hunger out there for a positive approach based on love, rather than a pandering to the darker fear-based tactics. Unfortunately, there are retrograde forces in society that think it threatens their profits, and they are intent on re-igniting fear in every way they can.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:42 PM

Yup... It's called the Republican Party these days...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:47 PM

"I think it has worked every single time a group, a society, or a nation has made a positive advance that benefited most or all of the people affected."

THe United Nations, The wide use of penicillin, modern manufactuing, the plastics industry and the economic growth of the last half of the 20th century all stemmed from WWII. I think that if you look at history, I think you will find that most advances stem from competition and conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 06:51 PM

If that is so, would you be in favor of having another global war to push progress even faster? Or do you think that a disaster like a war fills the survivors with a desire to do something positive instead...and rebuild? I think it's the latter. I know that my father was in the war, fought hard, and his reaction to the whole thing was to say "It was the stupidest way of lives and material that I ever saw in my life." He vowed to somehow survive it, and when he did...to NEVER participate in such a thing again, but do something positive with his life instead. He made friends with many Germans after the war, and they felt the same way only even moreso, because they'd been on the losing end. It was their hunger for peace and for positive achievement that turned Germany and Japan into such successful countries after those war years had passed...they gave up on militarism, turned their back on it, and did better things.

I wish the USA would do the same, but the USA has not yet had the chastening experience of being humbled by being the loser in a world war.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 06:58 PM

Japan and Germany did not do that out of love.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Neil D
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 01:28 AM

When I was young overpopulation was generally recognized as being either the root cause of, or an exacerbation of, every problem facing the human race. And that's when there were 4 billion people on the planet. Zero population growth was considered a reasonable aspiration, at the very least, an ideal. Now, with 7 billion people overloading the planet's systems, eco and otherwise, no one is really discussing population. Not our political, spiritual or academic leadership, nor in the communities either. Ask anyone you know under 30 what ZPG stands for and they won't know. There are even TV shows that glorify and enable people having 8, 12, even 19 children, ironically on something called "The Learning Channel". What happened to our priorities? How can we talk about war and poverty and the beleaguered environment without addressing the one issue that connects to all others, overpopulation?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:12 AM

Until 'could', 'would', 'should', "I wish" and "I hope", become 'will', 'do', 'can', 'are' and "I see", your rhetoric, Little Hawk, means little. The point I have tried to get across is that the way this world is going *currently* is what we have to contend with. Our goal cannot realistically count on some idyllic far-off Utopia which does not appear all that likely to materialize. Who was it who said that planning on winning the lottery is not a good retirement plan? We are not talking about an informed, intelligent, mature people, we are having to make do with the people we have and hoping that there is a high enough proportion of them that are informed, intelligent and mature to make it possible to figure out the paths that mankind needs to take in order to survive.

(By the way, I'm enjoying our personal messages dialogue)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:30 PM

Every $%&@@$% time I read this thread's title I see 'Be fruitflies, and multiply'.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:35 PM

Be fruitflies, and multiply

I was just about to post that I see

Be fruitflies, and multifly

weird huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:51 PM

Fruit flies live only a day or so...they MUST multiply fast. We aspire to live a hundred years, and we eat more...

Thanks, Ebbie, for saying a lot of what I wanted to about practical thinking.


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