What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?

Subject: What makes a room suitable Folk?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 03:51 PM

I have just looked at a room that will handle approximately 200 people for a folk concert. My concern is that the ceiling is rather low, which makes having a stage not possible. Are big rooms with low ceilings good for projecting music? It would be with PA.

What does the team think?

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:31 PM

It depends,wooden ceilings and wooden floors[imo] are good without PA.
avoid rooms with strip lighting.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable Folk?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 05:23 PM

This is carpeting and false ceilings GSS

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 05:41 PM

well,a low ceiling is better than a high ceiling for atmosphere or ambience.my guess would be yes it will help the PA

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable Folk?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 05:53 PM

Also avoid flourescent lights...at least the old ones..is that strip lighting? They are so awful to sit under and ruin music for me. Easy enough to have people bring floor lamps in..turn on overheads for breaks, entry and exit times of course for safety. mg

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: skipy
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:08 PM

The artists, the PA set up & the audience in it! Good luck,
Skipy

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:09 PM

Thanks GSS. I have photo's but do not know anyway to load on here. It doesn't have flourescant lights mg.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:47 PM

Arthur, try using something like imgur which will let you upload it for free and give you a link to give us :-)

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 04:08 PM

Thanks DC

Here is the link

Planned Room for Folk Music

Nice program.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 04:12 PM

Whatever it takes. Good luck with it, Arthur.
Cleethorpes Charlie.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 04:13 PM

You can be a steward Charlie :-)

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 04:19 PM

I've been called worse, me old mate.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 04:41 PM

I didn't say a Bar Steward :-)

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 04:50 PM

For many years I was an officer in a group that put on folk concerts.

1. What choice do you have? Probably none, so do the best with what you have.

2. Make people comfortable.

   Don't make rows of seats too long so that people have to climb over each other a lot.

   Put up signs for where the restrooms are.

   Is the air fresh?

   You may not have to turn on all the lights. Many rooms are overlit.

3.   Make sure people can get out if there's a fire.   Explore the building beforehand; know your way around.

4. Try not to have the sound too loud. (Wasting my breath, I know.)

5. Many people will talk about the acoustics of a place, but most of them wouldn't recognize an acoustic if it came up and nibbled on their earlobe.

Have fun. It's all worth it when people say "Thank you for that beautiful music!"

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:05 PM

If the music's good....any old room will do!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:10 PM

Thanks leeneia - all good points.

This is where I normally run concerts. http://www.faldingworthlive.co.uk/ where INHO we have a very good set up.

The problem I have with the room in the pictures is the height of the ceiling and the awkwardness of the room. Just wanted to find out if it would work. Plus I doubt if I can have a stage, which then makes it difficult for the audience to see the artists properly.

"4. Try not to have the sound too loud." I am with you entirely. That is one thing I am a stickler for.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:11 PM

* INHO = IMHO

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: RTim
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:13 PM

Good Singers!!

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: JohnH
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:19 PM

Pete and RTim cover it all!

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 05:24 PM

It will be good :-)

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: GUEST,Blowzabella sans cookie
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 07:16 PM

You might be able to hire some staging blocks which are just about a foot high, which would make all the difference. Try a local marquee hire co - the blocks are designed to use different height legs, but without any legs at all would probably be just what you need for that room :)

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 07:45 PM

I thought we were going to get to decorate it with African masks and old spinning wheels and plows and Guatamalen woolens from baby alpacas. I was looking forward to it. mg

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 07:57 PM

I was going to suggest a very low stage, but Blowzabella beat me to it.

I recently put on a gig in a room seating about 150 with a stage about a foot high in a low-ceilinged room and just that small elevation made all the difference to artiste visibility.

The PA was fine.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 07:57 PM

Leeneia's point about not having the sound too loud - it looks to me as if you'll need to put some more speakers in around a third of the way down the room (preferably on a delay line), as most of the sound will be absorbed by the carpeting, audience and false ceiling.

Okay, on the face of it that seems a contradiction in terms - more speakers = louder... No! In the trade we call it 'low level distribution' - instead of blasting out the first few rows so that the people at the back can hear, you spread the sound out and keep the overall level down...

Why the delay line? Simply, people sitting further back would hear the speakers near to them, then the front speakers a few milliseconds later (think seeing a cricket bat hit the ball, then you hear it). So you delay the sound so that they hear them both simultaneously.

Well, you did ask!

Seriously, see if your sound man is up to the job, and take professional advice if necessary.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:42 AM

Is that folk by the 1954 definition?

If so, you need a roomful of intelligent people with that rare blend of qualities: discernment; respect for the wondrous abilities of the artistes; orgiastic response and enjoyment to the music (either that or the ability to fake it); regular listeners to Mike Harding's show - so that they are fully briefed as to the depth of orgasmic response permitted and required. (Set the vibrators for the heart of the sun!)......Warp factor ten! Oh no! Jim!.... an alien force is taking over the village hall......its morris dancers!

Best of luck, Les!

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:42 AM

What are you like Al and MG :-)

Excellent advice Blowzabella and Rob. If you look at the one end of the room you will see that tyer are a couple of small steps raisng that section slighly. I was thinking that it might be enouggh to put the artists there. Do you think that would be high enough as tghat would save me having to hire the blocks.

Hi Bernard that is excellent advice and just what I needed. The delay line is just the job me thinks. The sound man is well up to the job Bernard as he, apart from putting his own musical shows on in theatres, does the sound and lighting. Very experienced man. However I haven't spoken with him yet as I wanted to understand more before I talk with him and good old Mudcat comes up trumps again.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 09:58 AM

Thanks, Bernard. That's interesting about the speakers and the delay line.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Bernard
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 10:13 AM

In 'the old days' we used to set up a delay line by putting a metronome in front of a microphone - that way, once you could hear only one click per beat (rather than c-click!), you knew the delay was right. That was when a delay unit (such as Knowles or Klark Technic) had dials on the front...

These days, digital loudspeaker control processors make life a lot easier! DBX, BSS et al make really flexible devices which you can control remotely with a laptop. We have a wifi router in the rack to eliminate the cable - and the Yamaha LS9 and M7 desks we use are also networked... it's always amusing watching people's faces when the faders seem to be moving all by themselves!!

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 01:46 PM

Given the shape of the room, have you considered doing a little theater-in-the-round, and set up a stage in the center of the room. Otherwise, those in the back are going to feel a little out of touch with the singers.

For staging, you can always go buy a bunch of concrete blocks and 3/4" plywood from your local Big Box Building Supply Store (Here it would be Home Depot or Lowe's). Build a stage, (wood on blocks, no fasteners) hold the concert (Warning the singers to not jump around too much on stage... no fasteners) and then just load up the pieces and your receipt, and return for a full refund.

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 02:05 PM

The problem there BL is that some people will have to see the backs of the artists, unless of course i could get a revolving stage.I was thinking that I could do a straight seat line through the middle of the hall and the rest on the sides could be used for standing only.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Bernard
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 02:25 PM

Alternatively, set up the stage across one corner with a screened off area behibd it for instrument cases and the like - the opposite corner would be the main entrance and merchandising area.

The seating would be in a chevron (if the seats are fastened to each other for fire regs) or semi-circular layout with a central aisle and side aisles...

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:12 PM

Yep thats also a good possibility Bernard. I thought of that myself. Good thing is that the seats are loose.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 07:18 PM

Big square rooms with low ceilings might be okay. Long narrow rooms are much worse - the Football Club at Whitby is probably the worst hall I've ever been to a concert in. It gets suffocatingly hot and the PA (just at the front of the room) is all but inaudible halfway down the room.

If you expect the room to be near full, do the figures, work out what sort of air extraction you'll need and make sure it's totally silent.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 06:43 AM

As others have said, the success or failure will depend on a number of things - the main ones being the performers and the audience, with the sound engineer playing a significant role as well.

I'd consider getting some portable staging - even if only to give some "focus" to the event. Any sound/lighting/etc hire company will be able to source this, and it generally is available with a variety of leg heights from 6" upwards. Unless you are built like a bear, go for the lightweight varieties rather than steeldeck!

Regarding PA and delays - a delay might help, but you need a good sound engineer. It's not as simple as just dialing in the corresponding delay (1 millisecond for every foot between the main and delay speakers) - that will give you something that sounds perfect, but only for one location in the hall. For other locations, you may just be adding to the mush! In particular, if you have a reflective back wall, you may get problems. I have set up PAs in similar sized rooms, with delays, and ended up turning off the delay, because the room reflections made all the theoretical calculations useless.

Slightly contradicting what I have just said, you also have to be aware of some psychoacoustics - in particular the Haas effect. If you are using delay, and don't have the reflection problem, there's an advantage in "overdelaying" by about 10ms - so the audience hear the sound "quietly and directly" from the stage 10ms before they hear it (much louder) from the delayed speakers, which are probably at the side of the venue. The brain takes it's directional info from the first sound, so the sound is perceived as coming "from the stage" rather than the speakers at the side.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: bruceCMR
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 06:46 AM

(oops! that "GUEST" posting was me..)

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 03:51 PM

Thanks Bruce. Taking it all onboard.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 10:32 PM

Anyone - who requires a PA for 200 people......

Is less than a "performer."

May they forever live - with a 60 cycle hummmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Bernard
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 08:09 AM

Now then, GUEST (anonyomous)! You obviously didn't look at the link to photos of the room, which is obviously very dead, acoustically.

I have performed in 400 seater (plus) concert halls where a PA wasn't necessary, but I recently played in a very similar 200 seater hall (Allford Hall, Warrington to be precise), and was grateful a PA had been provided.

It isn't a matter of bravado, but simply if the room stops the sound in its tracks, people at the back won't be able to hear what they've paid to hear - and that is a very big problem for a club organiser.

As you mentioned a 60 cycle hum, you are from across the pond... ours is 50 cycles!!

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:04 AM

May I also add that many pro singers and bands are performing a lot and PA helps them rest their voice from strain.

The other point of the PA is to balance voice and instruments and is not aimed at pumping up the volume.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:20 AM

We have the perfect room, Theatre80 - 161 seats, full bar, historic accoustics, a few dark nights a week... are you in New York? If so, drop me an email at LorcanOtway at gmail dot com

Good luck
Lorcan

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:38 AM

Unless they've relocated Lincolnshire to NY, he's in England, UK. :-) :-)

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:10 AM

Ah well... not a bad commute these days... a bus, a plane a subway and bob's your uncle!

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: GUEST,Blowzabella sans cookie
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:03 PM

Re the slightly raised area of the room - it may be enough of a difference - difficult to say. Will performers be standing or seated? If seated - I'd say, probably not. If standing - you might well get away with it.

A note re seating - I thnk that chairs have to be set out so that a person is never more than 5 seats away from an aisle. Therefore, if you want to have a single central block - it would need to be no more than 10 chairs wide, with an aisle at either end.

If you do go for this option, make sure there is at least one gap / aisle lengthwise as well so that somone, say, in the front row, sitting nearest the aisle, doesn't necessarily need to walk right to the back of the room to walk round the chairs (assuming he has good manners enough to not just walk straight across in front of the stage!)

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:48 PM

With you all the way blowzabella. Thanks.

InOBU what are you like :-)

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:53 PM

Oh and agreed Blowza, The artist's would need to stand.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Willie-O
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:41 AM

Should be fine. I"m interested in Bernard's solution. I'm wondering about the "stick style" PA's made by Fishman and Bose nowadays--vertical arrays of many small speakers instead of large ones on stands, supposed to give a more consistent sound anywhere in the room, do you have those in the UK? Some of the technically cleverer touring performers I've seen recently get great results out of these easy-set-up wonders.

Re: care and feeding of sound techs--if you've got a good one, take his/her advice over anyone on the internet's--even if they sound smart like Bernard! That's what they're paid for--to do what's possible with what's available.

Hope you don't actually have a crowd of 200--that room will be much more comfortable if you have room to set up the chairs in a fan formation, with a generous aisle in the middle and leave both sides clear--the less seat-jumping the better!

W-O

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:58 AM

I will be talking to my technician. He is very smart, but it helps me a lot to get all this feedback, before I chat with him.

I don't have a good feel about that room as I take great care that a room is suitable for the job. However the ideas coming in give me room for thought. I just wished the ceiling was higher and the posts weren't there.I do have a lightweight poratble flexi stage, but it is a bit too high for that room. I have 12 x 1 meter x 1 meter boards. which can be arranged in whatever way I feel. I will probably take one of them to this room and see how it is with the ceiling.

Subject: RE: What makes a room suitable for a Folk concert?
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:44 AM

Speakers with delay reduce the overall power needed to deafen people. Or provide adequate volume.

If the artists are amenable put them on high stools with a box to rest their feet. Less blocks needed.

If you place the "stage" at the right place you can have side facing seats to the left and right and forward in the centre and two corridors. The pillars may dictate were more corridors go anyway to provide good viewshafts.