BS: London Riots

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Max
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 01:50 AM

damn.

MiniFAQ (thinking out loud last night)

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Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: gnu
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:33 PM

Cruise missiles in Britain? No! Surely not!

That's for the rich despots in foreign lands. To help the peoples of those lands rise up in protest against their oppressors.

Hmmmm....

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Songwronger
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:11 PM

I'm surprised the U.S. hasn't helped out with a few cruise missiles. We popped some over Libya when their civil unrest broke out. A few daisy cutters over Picadilly might calm things down.

But at least the Brits have retained the right to bear baseball bats. Shouldn't be necessary, with a monarch in charge. Why doesn't Elizabeth stroll through the mobs giving that limp wristed wave? That would bring people back to their senses.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:43 PM

...in hell's name can you know when you have prevented it from ever happening?

When was there last in power a government that could be called liberal (small L!!!), let alone leftwing? Arguably back in the 1960s. Most of the people you are arguing with weren't even born then.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:31 PM

""above-the-law elite hit squads who murdered Duggan""

I have as yet seen no evidence that Duggan was murdered, and certainly there has been no trial.

Still, Jack says it was murder, so that must be right.......mustn't it?

Judge and bloody Jury in total ignorance of any facts. I despair!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:25 PM

""The debt is owed by the government, not by bankers. Its cause was overspending by Gordon Brown. Even at the peak of the cycle he was running a deficit (but then, that didn't matter, did it, as he'd got rid of boom and bust? Oops!)""

The last curbs on the bankers' activities were removed by Gordon the Prudent, and debt was encouraged. To pay for all the inadequate and ineffective "initiatives" with which New Labour tinkered around the edges of mounting problems, Gordon sold this country's gold reserves and squandered the money raised in short order.

Now, I'll admit that, in dire straits, I might sell off the family silver (if we had ever had any), but I sure as hell wouldn't sell it when silver was at its lowest price for thirty years, which was when he cashed in the nation's reserves.

And I certainly wouldn't spend it on contracting for aircraft carriers which will have no planes for eleven years, and similar halfwitted projects to which his successors have been contractually bound.

Let's face it, he cocked up ROYALLY and had he possessed the brain God gave a goose, and hung on to the gold, we would now be in a position to clear all our deficit by selling at the highest price for thirty years.

The collapse was outwith our control, the ability to float over it without effort was not. That WAS the responsibility of one man, GORDON (not so prudent) Brown.

So the above statement is essentially irrefutable.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:07 PM

""We'd have no objection if that was in fact what they did. But they don't.""

That's just plain bollocks.

Maggie Thatcher tried to move the country towards that, and David Cameron is inclined in that direction, but your kind stops it happening, and screams about private healthcare and private education whenever it is mentioned.

Who was it that yelled blue murder when David Cameron changed the child benefit system for people who cannot in their wildest dreams advance a case for needing it?

It was left wingers so short sighted that they insist that the very people they vilify must have every benefit whether they need it or not.

You say that you would not object if they paid their way, but they wouldn't do so.

How in hell's name can you know when you have prevented it from ever happening?........Educated guesswork is a damnfool substitute for rational thought and sensible trials.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:53 PM

Mark Duggan
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/mark-duggan-profile-tottenham-shooting

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:51 PM

It's a little bit more complicated than that. In fact it appears that the looting has been done by people of all colours and ethnic origins.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:48 PM

Not an innocent kid, but a notorious gang "elder."
The police have not said why they had to arrest him in a cab instead of at home in early morning.
It is suggested he was on his way to avenge the murder of his cousin, using a cab because his car was too well known.
A gun was found.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:48 PM

I'm enjoying the big pendulum swinging from one side of the political spectrum to the other.

Here's what I'm worried about: This is where people start (or indeed, are already) crying out for heavier police, and then complain in 5 years time about the instigation of a police state.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:29 PM

The playground name-calling, like the passed few days rioting, has gotten out of hand, unlike the rioting, there is an option here to close the thread....


you name callers really do need to Grow Up!!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:25 PM

Exactly so Mr McGrath, time the leaders of the financial institutions were introduced to Mdm Guillotine.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:01 PM

The trouble is, you need very good connections in order to rob your neighbours blind and get away with it legally - and with connections like that, even if you do get caught out, you'll get away with a slap on the hand.

It's a bit different for the small time villains who've been so much in the news these past days.

I see that it's estimated that the cost of the damage will add up to something like £100 million.   Terrible - but compared to what the bankers and their friends did to us all, that is pretty small beer.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:47 PM

"sleazy links to Murdoch. " Christ I have never read of much paranoia about one man in all my life, get help mate.

Murdoch gets blamed for every ill in the world today on this site. I bet he's the bastard shitting on my cabbages, and here was me blaming that ginger tom cat with the big stones who lives at number 11. Do you thing Murdoch likes lettuce ? They got a touch over the weekend too.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:38 PM

The media are now finally reporting what exactly is happening in the background of this terrible situation and took the plank out of their eye. They avoided it for a few days, but the elephant outgrew the room and they had to come out with it. The mindless violence of the past five days is nothing to what is about to happen, I don't wish to scaremonger, but it would appear the genie is well and truly out of the bottle.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:53 PM

Police on Sky news admitted UK laws tie them up in knots.

You mean Sky manipulated, edited and spun what they said until it looked like the fascist message they wanted.

In fact the police have been saying all along that the situation was intrinsically beyond what they were capable of handling with the resources they had. The law allowed them to take much more extreme measures - like water cannon - but they judged it wouldn't do any good.

It is VERY unfair to judge the ordinary coppers thrown into the front line of these disturbances as if they were the above-the-law elite hit squads who murdered Duggan and de Menezes, or the commanders above them with their sleazy links to Murdoch.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:52 PM

Forget Cameron's pompous grandstanding about getting tough and water cannon and rubber bullets, is it time to send Jeremy Kyle in?
http://ph.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110810055607AAyc9sx

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:43 PM

GUEST,Bluesman, it's funny you should mention you like history, so do I, so I did a little trace back, and it seems to me your problem around Richard Bridge isn't a new one, dates back to 23-May-09 @ 06:36 PM after that you disappear for almost two years...intersting..I seem to recall that Richard and mudcat had a problem with an impersonator awhile back as did some other mudcat regulars

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:23 PM

Yes, Richard ~~ but the Hollinger fraud was not committed here ~~ nor, indeed, in Canada, but in the US: sorry I got that wrong. The point is that the UK govmnt had nothing to prosecute Black for & the US one did. & for all his wealth & influence he was not above the law; and neither ~ which is the whole point of this bit of discourse, & as he himself would admit ~ is Murdoch. All this goes back to the silly woman I was replying to who thought it was OK for yobbos to wreck our lives & cities because Rupert Murdoch has a lot of money. I fear the logic of this escapes me; but not, apparently, you, Richard. Perhaps you would care to expound. Tho I do take cognizance of Bluesman's cogent post just above...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 01:42 PM

Police on Sky news admitted UK laws tie them up in knots.
Ringer, ignore Bridge, everyone does. He caused major problems on this forum about a month ago and got his knuckles rapped for it, seems he didn't learn.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 01:28 PM

The UK has jurisdiction over acts committed here.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 01:02 PM

What nonsense, Good Soldier Schweik. The debt is owed by the government, not by bankers. Its cause was overspending by Gordon Brown. Even at the peak of the cycle he was running a deficit (but then, that didn't matter, did it, as he'd got rid of boom and bust? Oops!)
prove that statement, with facts and figures.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 01:01 PM

what is your objection to the rich paying their way?

We'd have no objection if that was in fact what they did. But they don't. They steal instead, and the richer they are the more they steal.

http://www.monbiot.com/2011/02/07/a-corporate-coup-detat/

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 01:01 PM

===Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:09 AM
What difference is that supposed to make, Richard? Please elucidate; I genuinely cannot fathom what point you think you are making in trying to establish the precise whereabouts of Lord Black's incarceration.

From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:33 AM
The UK system let him remain at large. ===
,.,.,.

He happens to be a Canadian citizen, Richard, & it was, rightly, the Canadian govmnt that prosecuted & imprisoned him. We have at present no jurisdiction over Murdoch either, but that doesn't make him immune to the laws of where he is; nor does he in any way claim it does.

I still don't get what point you are endeavouring to make ~~ but I don't believe you know either.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 12:57 PM

We have unemployment benefit, sickness benefit, reasonable pensions and a fairly good standard of living. Anyone who can afford £100 trainers and £300 for a smartphone can simply not complain about poverty - yet these are the thugs trying to wreck our town.

Poverty is what exists in third world countries. Poverty is what exists in the shanty towns of some Latin American countries, where the gap between rich and poor is enormous. It isn't so here.

What we do have at the moment is a wonderful community spirit - where Croydon residents came together yesterday morning from 10 a.m. to help clean up the streets. Where neighbours are keeping an eye out for other neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 12:33 PM

Just seen this. So, now the riots win. Great.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 12:09 PM

"There is no such thing as "downtown London" "

I know what Little Hawk meant despite the geographic disparity, mind you I do speak both North American and British urbanese

Personally, bonzo3legs, I think you argue for the sake of arguing rather than from any useful stand point

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Ringer
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 12:05 PM

"Ringer, if you don't understand relative poverty you are not well equipped to comment here."

I think, Richard Bridge, that if I had a chip on my shoulder as large as yours I'd be a leeetle less patronising. I also think that if I'd been accused of laxity in my use of English then I'd take extra care to say what I meant. Where were you talking about relative poverty?

"The English government has been told by the IMF to reduce its debt, a debt that was caused by bankers and financiers"

What nonsense, Good Soldier Schweik. The debt is owed by the government, not by bankers. Its cause was overspending by Gordon Brown. Even at the peak of the cycle he was running a deficit (but then, that didn't matter, did it, as he'd got rid of boom and bust? Oops!)

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 12:02 PM

Brilliant pics Spleen! Too many to remember but I particularly liked "Twister", "Step away from the space hopper" and "the busker"

LL

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:59 AM

There is no such thing as "downtown London"

That burning building was in the Church Street area of Croydon, some 12-13 miles south of the centre of London.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:52 AM

"He also slapped the BBC for repeatedly showing a burning building from three days ago as if to dramatise events, saying there are no building burnings now."

Yes, well, don't forget..."the News" nowadays has essentially 2 purposes:

1. to entertain (thus increasing the number of viewers who tune in)

2. to propagandize (thus moulding and shaping public consciousness in a desired fashion and direction)

Showing a burning building in downtown London assists greatly in achieving both those endeavours, so that's why they do it.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:50 AM

"At the risk of offending people on this thread with a little levity, some photo-shopped snaps of looters made me chuckle:"

I can't be offended by postings of anonymous GUESTS

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:46 AM

Maypole

And a few more...

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:43 AM

BBC keep wittering on about Cameron authorising Water Cannon and Rubber Bullets to be used.
Sir Hugh Orde in an interview, clearly irritated by this, made it clear that Cameron wasn't in fact in a position to authorise *anything*. He said water cannon is in fact already available anyway, and if the police force think it appropriate they will use it. But due to the fast moving nature of the events water cannon would be useless in these particular circumstances.
BBC continuing to repeat the inaccuracies however.
He also slapped the BBC for repeatedly showing a burning building from three days ago as if to dramatise events, saying there are no building burnings now.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Musket
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:40 AM

Thanks for the levity. The loaves and fishes was rather ironic and I just sent it to a few mates.

Some of our regular contributors seem to think that this has something to do with how society is, and what a mess successive governments have made of it. Notwithstanding the 3,000 year old hieroglyphs translated many years ago that read something along the lines of "The youth of today, they will be the architects of the downfall of civilisation."

I could be wrong, I would love to be wrong but.. I am increasingly reading that those who normally whinge about their lot in life here on the BS threads seem to think these feral scum are somehow demonstrating so that middle and old aged musicians can share with them a better society for all at the end of it.

If so, I need a beer. If not, I'll have a beer anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:37 AM

Worth Worth reading

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:32 AM

Don's post explains how people of our generation worked hard, expected little and often received less.

My old man was a docker, mum was a seamstress in a factory, six children and never a policeman at our front door. We all did well in life, worked hard and never scrounged off the state. We had our morals and our pride. My wife and I still work, part-time these days as we still have bills to pay.

Sadly today the world revolves around youth, if you are over 40, you are a "wrinkly." I live in a semi detached house which is my own, I am surrounded by loafers of young people who don't work, live in rented houses owned by absentee landlords, all they seem to do all day is drink, fuck and throw their kids out on the street to get peace.

I have a couple of nieces who collect children to a selection of non-existent fathers, they told me openly that "the fucking government can keep us". One referred to the bastards wrecking London recently as, "fucking cool" and added "they are right to take what they want of these rich bastards" that is the attitude of the youth today.

So stop your slow violin playing and blaming everyone for their problems and where they live. Many of us got it tight growing up, but we didn't blame other people for it.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:32 AM

Brilliant!
I didn't think they could be made to look even bigger pricks than they already did, but that succeeded!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:24 AM

At the risk of offending people on this thread with a little levity, some photo-shopped snaps of looters made me chuckle:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JFUsPGs9j6g/TkJgbXPpgJI/AAAAAAAAACw/zsc6ZZieCAk/s1600/tumblr_lppk2w3HjM1r1qajlo1_400.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wOH1bWsV-HA/TkJgl1PFa8I/AAAAAAAAAC0/fBai2LkaGRM/s1600/tumblr_lppjvb7KgW1r1qajlo1_500.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5lAXI87g4nw/TkJhMfKrGVI/AAAAAAAAADA/9542a09n94Y/s1600/tumblr_lpphsgdR9t1r1qajlo1_500.png

LL

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Harry Brown
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:10 AM

As patronising as the term "Respectable Working Class" ever was
WE did, and to a shamefully diminishing extent, still do exist.

Loyal old labour supporting trade unionists
or even working class tories.
Shop stewards or factory Foremen.
Despite the political divisions and cultural and aspirational contradictions,
We still had so much in common.
A shared respect for Education self improvement, personal dignity, and integrity.
Pride in our Council homes, families and communities.

The Council Estate was a genuine positive post war concept
for social reform and stability.

Corrupted and blighted by inept inner city planning and inhumane tower block architecture;
and 3 decades of deliberate budgetary neglect and cynical asset stripping 'right to buy' propaganda,
with the inevitable mortgage foreclosures
and corporate acquisition of the choicest provincial estate properties,
as local industries closed down
making new ex-council tennant 'home owners' suddenly redundant and homeless.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:46 AM

Who's arguing over Don's life?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:44 AM

Hey guys? If you want to argue over Don's life could you take it elsewhere? There's a post new thread button you know

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:38 AM

The question can be answered. Racism. This will happen in the U.S. as well as U.K.
The cops overreact. Authoritarianism will never work for long (only in fascist countries for a while).

The gap is widening economically for not only rich and poor but whites and minorities.

Most white people do not understand racism. They can't relate in spite of their humble beginnings. The white folks may have had hard times but they didn't have the deck stacked against them because of their color. They will be continued to be reminded until they look past their smug self-righteousness and see that they are also culpable in violence.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:35 AM

Let's be fair to Don. He has not always been well placed - which makes his persistent attempts to undermine and help those who would undermine the welfare state all the more frustrating.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:33 AM

Hmm, the post eater has been at it again

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:17 AM

There is a lot more going on here than many care to admit. The elephant in the room here is PC.
A Turkish guy on the radio today admitted they are forming vigilante groups because they feel businesses in their community came under attack by a section of the community known to them, and they took photographs of those involved and are currently distributing them and will deal with the culprits in their own way. Asian shopkeepers have spoken on television and radio blaming Afro Caribbean mobs for singling them out. When the dust settles there is a possibility of repercussions within mixed race communities. These street disturbances may be nothing to what is about to happen.
I do hope I am proved to be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:12 AM

I was typing my postr as Don posted his - couldn't agree more. Never thought I'd see the day, but I'm agreeing with a Conservative - because he's fucking right!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:09 AM

"No doubt our right-wing friends will find a way of denigrating and belittling these people as well."

Well I'm anything but RW Leveller, as I'm sure Don will cheerfully attest, given the spats he and I have had in the past, but I have to say that, IMHO, he is absolutely right in his summation of what's gone on.

It is simply not good enough to take the line that, because people are having a hard time, they can be given carte-blanche to burn, loot and riot. My grand-parents and parents had absolutely fuck-all, they lived through the 30's Depression and a World War, lived their entire lives in council houses, no money, no car, no holidays, no electronic gadgetry, just a life of hard fucking work for peanuts-wages. But what they did have was dignity, morals, the work-ethic, respect for other people and other peoples' property, respect for the law, and a firm belief in education, and they made sure that, unlike many of the parents of the criminal animals we've been watching this past few days, they passed their standards on to their children.

There used to be a saying when I was a kid in the 50's - "You don't have to be rich to be clean". And you don't have to be rich to live like a decent human being either. Those feral scrotes need teaching that one.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:58 AM

""Just wondering when was the last (if any) time Don and Bluesman actually visited a 'sink' estate and talked to the people there to find out how hard their lives are, what their aspirations are and how litle hope they have of ever achieving them.""

You know nothing whatever about my life, and less about what I would, or would not do to help people worse off than myself, so to save you having to think, I will tell you.

I grew up in one of the worst sink estate areas in North London, which was also about fifty percent bomb craters. My father did three jobs to support his family, eight hours a day as a shopfitting joiner, and five hours every evening working at a local furniture repairer's, then two eight hour shifts each weekend working on bomb damaged Council properties.

With him as a role model I worked hard enough at school (in spite of spending three days a week at the Western Ophthalmic Hospital in Paddington) to win a scholarship to a decent Grammar.

I started my working life as an analytical chemist, only later realising that a chemist's pay was about one third of what the labourers in the brewery got.

After about ten years I'd had enough, so packed it in and took on an apprenticeship in my father's trade. From then till I retired I have done about every dirty, disgusting, job you can think of and more.

So, your opinion of me is wrong, and worthless (about par for the course).

It might interest you to know that one of the first men to leave court, having been convicted of riot and theft works as a teaching assistant.

So much for disadvantaged youth.

Today's kids are the third generation offspring of the sixties Dr Spock kids. They were allowed to choose what to do at school and were totally undisciplined, and that lack of discipline and respect has been passed down the line, growing more pronounced, and more unmanageable with each generation.

When I was a kid every bloody thing was rationed, and you think I don't know about deprivation.

When things got tough we shared what we had. We didn't go out and steal somebody else's share. We had respect for our parents, respect for our teachers and respect for the local Bobby (who would always help if we needed it).

Most of all, we had too much self respect (and pride), to steal or beg, from the government or anybody else.

What none of you lefties ever want to hear is that Maggie Thatcher did not intend that everybody should grab whatever he/she could.

You all shy away from the fact that she was suggesting that those who could afford to pay their own way would do so, leaving the government more to spend on those who really needed it.

That's what left wingers can't stand, because the concept of the rich paying their way destroys what they want to believe about the Tories.

Apart from my eye problems as a child, the first money I ever took from the government was my state pension. I was actually registered on the list of one doctor for twenty two years without even meeting him.

Now tell me again, what is your objection to the rich paying their way? Because it's always the left wingers that go berserk when the idea is mentioned.

Don T.