BS: London Riots

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:43 PM

Schweik, and just what does your unhelpful remark have to do the rioting, in what has now gone far beyond London? Other than a politcal axe grinding, nothing as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:43 PM

At the risk of going off topic: Debate would be "I respect your opinion, but believe it is wrong". What I see is "Your opinion is wrong".

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:50 PM

"That is the whole point - these people will never be more than "just" or "mere"."

who was that speaking...oh it's just Bonzo3Legs, not important...next

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:56 PM

From Sunday's Observer, columnist Nick Cohen must be a bit embarrassed now:

"No riots here. Just quiet, ever-deeper misery..."

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Musket
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 01:19 PM

Why does Bridge think I am interesting in "aspiring to rule?"

Bad enough that these feral kids reckon nobody listens to them. Not much hope when old men with beards can't even listen to each other.

Income around those of their parents? Interesting.. I've never heard so much crap since the days when I held public office and had to sound interested when meeting with loonies in ethnic skirts and attitudes. (Isn't it fun not having responsibility any more? A serious point for this debate in that statement, but no matter...)

Perhaps you accidentally make a good point without realising it. Kids of parents who get on inspire their kids as role models. Kids of parents who sit on their arses inspire their kids as role models.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 01:32 PM

Kids of parents who hide their faces inspire their kids to hide their faces, and very silly they look too.

I look forward to reading of their harsh treatment in prison.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 01:49 PM

The BBC has twice broadcast the opinions of two girls found drinking stolen wine in Croydon. Paraphrase: "We did it to show the police we can do anything we want." And "We did it to get back at the rich, those people with shops are the rich."

They need to be shown how the shopkeepers live, like the man weeping in Hackney (I think), and then the riverside penthouses, to get a sense of proportion.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 01:50 PM

Some people, quite rightly, protesting about a government that seem to think that the way to put right the damage bankers have done is to take money off the lower paid. Some people protesting about consitions that they should not have to live in. Some people jumping on the bandwagon and using it as an excuse to rob and vandalise.

The press and government will, quite sensibly from their point of view, concentrate on the latter. The former will suffer because of it. No one will win. Well, maybe the bankers. Again...

Seemples.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 01:56 PM

"And "We did it to get back at the rich, those people with shops are the rich.""

It is logical (if flawed) reasoning mind you and gives a sense of the origin of the unrest.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:00 PM

You can't have that many people taking to the streets unless huge numbers are angry. The French aristocrats didn't understand that either.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:06 PM

Looked at one way, it's all about Free Enterprise,and the Big Society.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:09 PM

what does my remark mean, well if you are too thick to understand it that is your problem, but I will explain, it means that if a government can waste taxpayers money on something useless, which inevitably deprives more needy recipients of money, instead of spending on those people in society that are under privileged, you will eventually get trouble.
The English government has been told by the IMF to reduce its debt, a debt that was caused by bankers and financiers
it was not caused by those people who rioted last night.
if people see an example of massive theft[by financiers], they are not going to not steal a few shoes or trainers when they see the opportunity, for society to work good examples have to be set
unfortunately the rioters have chosen the wrong targets.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:22 PM

GSW:

53 BILLION WAS STOLEN FROM THE PEOPLE OF IRELAND WHEN THE LAST IRISH GOVERNMENT DECIDED TO BUY USELESS ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES,THAT HAD TO BE SCRAPPED

No, no - a thousand times no! ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:24 PM

Indeed, Dick - you make a good point.

What a lot of interesting words on this thread. And no solutions, I fear.

What governments never do - or appear never to do - is to continuously and implacably ask the question, "Why?" There is a reason for everything, but you have to be brave enough and responsible enough and committed enough to keep asking that question, probing and face the answers it brings.

There are obvious reasons for the violence and mayhem which has erupted in London and other cities, and it doesn't take rocket science to understand what they are. Responding with effective actions on the part of government is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:30 PM

I suppose it will be Guildford tonight or Dorking.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:39 PM

Good Soldier Schweik Gotcha, I see where you're coming from, it's not ok to attack and steal from the average business owner, but it would be perfectly ok to attack and pillage from the government...I think, sunshine, you need to be taken in for questioning.......

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: skipy
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:55 PM

Cut & paste from facebook:-

Message to all the rioters .......... . u wanna be big men and fight to the death , well get your sorry little arses on the next plane to Afghanistan and stand alongside real men , they're called soldiers and they are fighting a war unlike you pathetic wastes of space, your not fit to wipe my a......e !!!!!
copy and paste if you agree !

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:14 PM

A pumped up pimply youth in my local shop today, ranting at the Indian lady behind the counter. She smiling and going "Mmm, Mmm" all the while and not rising to it.

As he left with his four pack he pronounces: "It's All about the fucking PROFIT, all about the PROFIT!"

I was somewhat bemused at the time, but it actually took me a few hours before the relevance of his semi-aggressive manner to the shopkeeper and the words he punctuated it with, eventually perculated through in light of recent events.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:15 PM

Maybe they don't agree with the war being fought there?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:21 PM

As expected the brain-dead loon leftie brigade has arrived on the thread to show their support for these mindless thugs. Manchester getting it now, possibly Salford later tonight.

What we need is water cannons, plastic bullets and the PSNI, they don't take prisoners or listen to the civil rights of vandals, thieves and thugs!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:31 PM

All over the countries there are going to be villains preparing for a night of burglary and so forth, in towns denuded of police who'll be off in London tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:13 PM

"We did it to show the police we can do anything we want."

These above, are the only words on this thread that will chill the politicians to the bone.



"Its own are all things between earth and heaven;
But this it knows not; and if one arise
To tell this truth, it kills him unforgiven."

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:19 PM

As I believe I've already said, it's not JUST about London anymore!!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:22 PM

Not Just London

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bert
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:24 PM

These things never start in middle class areas, maybe raising the standard of living would help.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: josepp
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:28 PM

Chickens coming home to roost as far as I know or care.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:31 PM

Thanks for your input josepp I'm sure there must be a fair number of your sort hanging about. Thank goodness there are those who do care about their community and its fate

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:34 PM

Bluesman, I don't think anyone is supporting the rioters as such, just trying to work out why this sort of thing happens in order to ensure its not repeated. My sympathies are with the local residents and small businesses who have suffered as a result of the riots and will continue to suffer long after the riots have ended. Brain dead hang 'em, flog 'em, lock 'em up macho rhetoric is neither use nor ornament in this situation. Personally, I'd say a good start would be to have those found guilty of involvement do some serious community service as a punishment rebuilding the communities they've smashed up. They might even learn some socially useful skills in the process... the other thing would be for politicians to take seriously the fact we have a long term underclass and think about how that much bigger problem can be resolved... because unless it is things won't get much better. Cutting services in areas that are already on the edge was never going to be the Tories' brightest idea.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: andrew e
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 05:14 PM

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/51886-as-britain-riots-and-burns-what-david-icke-wrote-two-years-ago-

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 05:15 PM

Here come the girls. God help us.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 05:22 PM

I notice that Icke's lizards are not that alien.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 05:55 PM

Two things occur to me

1) The country was doing better when someone was running it through their Blackberry. Perhaps we could put the mobile phone in charge of the country.

2) have you seen that youtube of Nick Clegg. Just before the election - the Greeks were rioting, and he correctly predicted that it would kick off here if the tories carried out their economic policies, because they would impact immediately on the very poorest in society.

All of which begs the question - imagine being that clever, that prescient. Then tying up with Cameron. Obviously the wrong man is the senior partner. I confess I didn't see this coming - he did! Respect! where its due.

This always seems to happen when the tories are in power. Toxteth, the poll tax, now this.....They 're always too damn busy saving 'the economy' for some abstraction of a Daily Mail reader to see the bleeding obvious and its conaequences.

The daily Mail in typical fashion on the front page calls everyone who suspects there might be a connection between tory policies and this latest nonsense - cynical and something else.

I'm not cynical - but I get pissed off with people seeking power and taking no responsibility for their actions. Would any of this happen in a country where the police had the resources and were not frightened to have a heavy overwhelming presence when the occasion demanded.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: andrew e
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 06:42 PM

Will Fly said,

What a lot of interesting words on this thread. And no solutions, I fear.
What governments never do - or appear never to do - is to continuously and implacably ask the question, "Why?" There is a reason for everything, but you have to be brave enough and responsible enough and committed enough to keep asking that question, probing and face the answers it brings.
There are obvious reasons for the violence and mayhem which has erupted in London and other cities, and it doesn't take rocket science to understand what they are. Responding with effective actions on the part of government is another matter.


That's right Will, the politicians never ask "Why", and they never will.
I'm talking about why we do anything, as well as more specific actions.
If I can't ask myself that question, then I can never imagine myself in someone else's position.
The politicians are just as incapable of asking this question of themselves as the rioters are.

I would suggest that in fact most politicians are the same as the rioters, it just manifests it different actions. Though if you look at it more closely, it's maybe very similar.

No problem at all with violence. [wars in Iraq etc.]
Grab what you can for free. Little care for others.
Put your party before the country.
Criticise others.
Lack of love.

And two questions.

Who in their right mind would want to be a politician?
Who in their right mind would want to be a rioter?

No personal insults please!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 07:09 PM

""The present trouble in Tottenham was possibly sparked off and escalated by heavy-handed policing following the killing of a young man, quickly followed up by a possible heavy handed stop-and-search in Brixton.""

According to the locals, there were about 400 police out in Tottenham facing around a thousand rampaging vandals, and it took a great deal of time to move in a force sufficient to take action without being ovewhelmed by numbers.

Hands up all those who think that constitutes heavy handed policing.........NO? Neither do I!

And I'm sick to death of hearing all this crap about disadvantaged youth forced to protest in the only way open to them.

On BBC tonight, we were shown the texts on the Blackberry network which was used to plan these events.

Not verbatim (though you can probably find it on the BBC website)

"If you're down for getting some free stuff...........

No mention of political protest at all.

Just a bunch of feral rats going on the rampage to steal, pillage, and destroy

1. Because they can.
2. Because they want all the goodies that are available NOW, but they don't intend to work for them.
3. Because they have zero respect for their fellow man, for the rule of law, or for any moral or ethical concept, compounded with zero self respect.

Save your sympathy for the poor bastards who suffered the loss of everything they had, and in all probability (when the flames die down) those who lie dead in those burned out buildings.

They are the ones who need your sympathy, not the fuckwits who are gloating over a newly acquired plasma TV.

Oh, and in answer to the comment about police marksmen, that second bullet finished up in the radio after hitting the gangster's arm, so not an inept shot at all.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 07:34 PM

Apparently the Blackberry network was used because its messages are encrypted, and that is why there was no prior intelligence for the police to let them know what to expect.

Poor disadvantaged kids??.......What does a Blackberry cost?

And now they have Plasma TV, I-Pads, freeview set top boxes etc. etc.

I don't have half the kit these so called "poor" kids have, and I worked for fifty three years non stop.

But then, I do have this unfortunate disinclination to steal from others or burn down others' businesses.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 07:48 PM

Black author Darcus Howe describes the London riots as an insurrection.

Interview (the sound improves at 55 sec.)

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:10 PM

Well, I was impressed with Manchester. Then tonight happened. Dawson's was hit bad, which is upsetting - those pianos are luckily still beautiful.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:26 PM

well, in North London, four police officers have been given cups of tea by the local residents

Make Tea Not Trouble...nice

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:54 PM

Don't worry Don. Your government will do it in stead, albeit the burning will be metaphorical. Steal from the poor, give to the rich.


It's nice if your forbears succeeded and rose by honest diligence. Indeed it's admirable. But nowadays that is quite rare, indeed almost impossible, unless you have a spectacular ability or run of luck.

The dishonest and unprincipled like Lord Sugar or Rupert Murdoch or Russian oligarchs who applied the skills learned as illegal black marketeers (or mobsters) to steal state assets control our lives, and thanks to the media they and cronies run (not to mention the Sunday Spurt), bling is the thing. The media teach that Jordan is a success, as are premiership footballers, and that success or prestige is not about diligence.

But those like Norman Tebbit (of whom I am sorry to feel that I hear an echo) tell the less fortunate to "get on your bike". That will not create successes but at best wage slaves with ever fewer rights as successive governments and union busting imported American lawyers castrate labour laws.

The rioters (rightly) feel (I infer) that they are not in control of their lives, that the only times they will be are in these riots, and the only other times they will feel so is after artificial stimulus. They are each a "king for a day". These are problems not born of former socialist governments, but of the ethos of the Thatcher generation. Blaming the powerless for feeling powerless is not the answer.

The police certainly have the shitty end of the stick - but that does not mean that the answer to the riots is to laud our magnificent boys in blue and give them a bigger stick. Eventually that leads to the Peterloo massacre.

While it is not yet wholly clear that the illegal firearm found was Duggan's, if it was then that should make his death a righteous shoot, just as the attempt to arrest a long standing member of a violent weapons and drug-dealing gang was a righteous arrest. But that does not mean that there is no root cause for the riots. There is. It is the fact that the rioters can see (and they are probably right at present) no way for them to attain the things that society tells them are the only measures of success and respect.

Society is broken. The rioters may be criminals but repeating that and threatening state violence is not the answer. Their anger must be understood before it can be controlled or disarmed.

Rule is a compact between rulers and ruled. When enough of the ruled do not obey, there are not enough forces of the state to compel obedience. Surely we in England learned that in Ireland in 1922.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:13 PM

breaking news - Libya recognises London rebels as legitimate government of UK.

ok .... I know .... I'm outta here.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:15 PM

Well your analysis may be right Richard. There is a lot I would agree with. However in the short term. We've got to restore order ASAP - and bigger sticks seem to me the best option this week.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: josepp
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:06 PM

/////Thanks for your input josepp I'm sure there must be a fair number of your sort hanging about. Thank goodness there are those who do care about their community and its fate////

Do you think there might have been Indians, Chinese and Africans who cared about their communities and their fates? There were probably a few.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:35 AM

As predicted, this is developing along political polarities with the usual impotent, raucous ranting from the rabid righties who have actually no interest in finding the causes and, therefore, perhaps a solution. It's easy to dismiss the rioters and looters and just a bunch of opportunist criminals (which, of course, they are) but what we have to ask is, why now and why in the most disadvantaged communities? Let's hope the parliamentary debate on Thursday brings some chickens home to roost because anyone who actually takes the time think about this will know exactly where the blame lies. I won't hold my breath, though.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:37 AM

Well for once, I have to agree with DonT. Every word spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:40 AM

On the other hand the young see an uncaring rip off Britain, people like Murdoch who have no social conscience whatsoever about what he does for his money or how he gets it and so in turn have no qualms about rioting or looting.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:48 AM

"Would any of this happen in a country where the police had the resources and were not frightened to have a heavy overwhelming presence when the occasion demanded. "

Al, the police are sick of having to go in and clear up the shit left behind by incompetent politicians who are also attacking them - and, let's face it, this governemtn has shown levels of incompetence (and self-interest) that are unprecedented.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bob Wakeling
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:54 AM

All this talk about local kids and local families and how poor they are. As many are aware, I grew up in the East End, that swarm of thugs dealers and car thieves don't look very local to me. Maybe time someone addressed the real reason this type riot, steal and wreck public buildings. If only we had listened to that guy in the sixties, he made so much sense.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:11 AM

==="On the other hand the young see an uncaring rip off Britain, people like Murdoch who have no social conscience whatsoever about what he does for his money or how he gets it and so in turn have no qualms about rioting or looting."===
,.,.,.,.

Something of a leap of logic there, Patsy. That "so in turn" perhaps just a trifle dubious?

Murdoch doesn't do anything illegal. & he is not above the law for all his wealth: look at what happened to the not dissimilar Lord [Conrad] Black, who was convicted of fraudulence in acquiring his wealth and is in prison to this day. All Murdoch does is supply a lot of what people, in their millions, want and are willing to pay for. If they didn't and weren't, then he wouldn't have all that money, would he? You might not like all his products, but who are you so to despise the taste of others? And when his underlings bend the law, he doesn't tolerate it ~~ NOTW!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Musket
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:13 AM

Nice to see it is all Th*tcher's fault. Must admit, I never say a good word for her myself, but the mental leap above is rather breathtaking..

"Their anger must be understood." Yes, I do understand it. it' all about having a laugh and sticking two fingers up at society. Been done before and will be done again.

No matter, plenty of work for solicitors at the end of it all. I am sure they can find a solicitor somewhere who reckons he understands their plight and is capable of spouting philosophical bullshit in answer to the question; "Why did the defendant steal the assets of others?" Good thing this looting, just goes to show there is a bit of capitalist in every downtrodden oppressed hoodie...

What about the downtrodden oppressed old people who daren't leave their homes now? What about my son living in the middle of Liverpool, sat indoors at night because going out would be foolish? Poor bugger is only there as a post grad student, he doesn't deserve the loss of personal freedom either. And neither do hundreds of thousands of others...

Methinks the government would want to think about them before going any thought to feral scroats and their aim to have a laugh.

This isn't about a Tory government,this is about lawlessness. There is no Tory government and if there was, there is one way to fight them and one way only. The next general election.

If I were an armchair revolutionary, I would ask myself if this rioting and looting won't affect me because I agree with a cause they don't actually have. It's your windows next...

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:16 AM

"Maybe time someone addressed the real reason this type riot"

The warnings have been there for those who wished to see them. Here are a few pertinent passages from Tony Judt's 'Ill Fares the Land', written just before his death in 2010:


"More than anything else, the welfare states of the mid-20th century established the profound indecency of defining civic status as a function of economic good-fortune."

"...our present approach to welfare provision encourages the view that those who cannot secure regular work are in some measure responsible for their own misfortune. The more such people we have in our midst, the greater the risks to civic and political stability."

"It is one thing to dwell amongst inequality and its pathologies; it is quite another to revel in them."

"There is quite a lot of evidence that people trust other people more if they have a lot in common with them...The more equal a society, the greater the trust."

"In an age when young people are encouraged to maximise self-interest and self-advancement, the grounds for altruism or even good behaviour become obscured."

"We live in an age of fear....fear that it is not just we who can no longer shape aour lives but that those in authority have also lost control, to forces beyond their reach."

Prophetic words!