BS: Punishment for riots

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 10:06 AM

"The police, Jim, have a very thin tightrope to walk and being human may sometimes react excessively."
Sorry Richard, should have made it clear.
While I believe (know, from some degree of experience) that some of the police can act aggressively - (take a trip to the Notting Hill Carnival some day), in the main, the zero-tolerance policy coming from the top creates much of the tension.
The stop-and-search incidents I have actually witnessed, particularly in the Brixton area, are prime examples of this.
The people on the receiving end, appear to be, and quite often are, treated as "the enemy".
It came as no surprise to me that the first outbreak of trouble outside of Tottenham, on this occasion was reported to have started following a heavy-handed S&S in Brixton.
We got several first-hand tastes of these S&Ss in East London, when we were working with Travellers, where we were automatically assumed to be guilty of something "by association".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 10:37 AM

Indeed Jim, very nice people they are too.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-14503686

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 11:47 AM

Just read a story in this AM's news about who the rioters are. Frankly, I was astonished. One woman is a nurse with a 6 month old who left her baby unattended to steal a TV. Another gem - an 11 year old girl who joined her friends in the rampage (pretty, white and middle class) and refused to express any remorse to the judge. Yet another - the daughter of a multi-millionaire. She was arrested with a carload of stolen goods. Another girl, a dancer, was turned in by her mother who saw her picture on TV. There were more than a few criminal types with records an arm long. But the number of adults with good jobs and decent homes astonished me. A college student stole $5 worth of bottled water WTF?????

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 12:18 PM

Interesting, Bluesman, just whose lines from the past you seem to be copying. It tells us what you really are.

Jeri, in the best tradition of nicknaming, "Mither" (which is a Scottish term for whining or moaning) is Mather. Previous attempts at me are feeble, but "Rumpole of the Volvo" is quite good. I hereby adopt it and will get it put on at least one Volvo numberplate. "FFS" ("Fugitive from Sanity") is GFS. Maybe we should have a thread on it like the Mudcat spoof thread titles tradition.

You will hardly ever find a solicitor who will tell you that most litigation turns on the merits of the case. Most will tell you of "the risks of litigation", particularly since the Woolf reforms buggered up any idea of actually trying to apply the rules and get to the bottom of the facts or law.   Some will tell you that their brilliance may enable them to put one over by bending the rules and since the rules are not now properly enforced they may have a point. Another factor is that clients lie to their own lawyers which makes predicting the outcome very hard.   

Mither - your own words again "You seem to think that having a bob or two gives you a certain political view"

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Musket
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 01:15 PM

No, although when I do express a view, it confuses you.

You are the one who thinks my views must reflect my socio economic class, (not that I've got one to my mind, but there you go.)

You like Rumpole of the Volvo? I prefer M'Unlearned Friend, but my actual friend uses that, and when he returns to The UK he might want to use it. Now, who was it who shouted Beetlejuice! Beetlejuice! Beetlejuice! whenever you joined in a thread? That made me chuckle too.

Presumably, this thread may have reached its end then,

Tatty bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 01:46 PM

Do any of you connosieurs know somewhere I can get Oban whisky - cheaper - best price I've seen online is 34.40.

Bill Howard has made me a banjo and I want to reward him with his favourite tipple. Seen some mad prices for Oban!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 01:48 PM

"
Indeed Jim, very nice people they are too."
Nice bit of cultural stereoyping there Bluesman - do you really believe all Travellers are like that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 02:13 PM

YES

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 03:07 PM

I don't recall seeing any reports of gypos being involved in the riots.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 04:05 PM

""I guess Don I did not explain my thoughts very well. In fact i just wrote the original post in haste and anger. I came from an area where boys (Girls were not accepted as yet in the forces.) if lucky finished school. Those that didn't found it very hard to find a job. A good number turned to the forces.""

Believe me Beer, I understand your POV completely.

However, while the army will accept and train any youth who has the necessary physique, and is willing to learn, what they don't want is to be burdened with recalcitrant conscripts and disaffected dropouts.

The situation with regard to those who, as you put it "turn to the army", in other words volunteer, is the same as it ever was, but Political Correctness, and the reaction to a number of NCOs who went too far means that they are hardly permitted to raise their voices to recruits.

So the methods by which they knocked (literally) young tearaways into shape are no longer useable.

As to blaming parents, I agree that parents aren't up to scratch in many cases and just don't care in almost as many more, but the parents really to blame are those of the 1960s who espoused the lunacy of Dr Spock.

It is they who injected the rot and it has festered ever since.

As far back as 1969 I predicted that we would see feral bands of youths on the streets of the UK.

Behold! The prophecy fulfilled!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 04:06 PM

"YES "
Then it's no wonder ethnic and cultural minorities take to the streets when the opportunity arises.
After thirty years of constant contact with Travellers, we never at any time encountered violence or hostility from anybody we met.
We considered ourselves lucky enough to count a number of Travellers among our closest friends.
I suggest you examine your own attitude if you are serious about understaning why Tottenham, Brixton and Notting Hill happened.
Thanks for the example.
Jm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 04:15 PM

I fear you are right, Jim, but they don't want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 04:52 PM

Excellent punishments being handed out, and many more to come in the Crown Courts, measured in years I'd wager.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: andrew e
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 05:09 PM

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 05:30 PM

""but I do care that most of the time you are actively on the side of the oppressors (at least in argument here) and every so often you say something that looks as if you have a social conscience.""

I know that can be confusing Richard, which may be because the rest of us are not quite as rabidly adherent to an extremely narrow viewpoint, and do occasionally see the truths, however small, in an opponents comment.

Incidentally folks, it is wrong to assume, or assert, that Richard is either a failed or a comparatively unknown lawyer, much less a clerk.

He is, in spite of our irreconcilable political enmity, a personal friend of mine (and a damn good one), and I can confirm that he is a well known and well respected solicitor, specialising in copyright law.

And if any of you musicians ever have to litigate in that arena, you will be damn lucky if you walk into court with him at your side.

Even barristers don't like to face him and the fact that he is not a barrister is his personal choice.

Just to set the record straight.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 05:37 PM

"It's the syme the whole world over. H'its the poor wot gits the blyme.
And the rich 'as all the mon-ey, Now ain't that a blinkin' shyme."

Punishment is too easy a band aid for a wound. Try a little human understanding
and compassion for those who have been left out.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 05:49 PM

""Punishment is too easy a band aid for a wound. Try a little human understanding
and compassion for those who have been left out.""

Have you not seen the cross section of the population being tried for these offences? Ages range from 11 to one man of 47 and all ethnic origins are represented.

A person who is deprived, and in need will steal what he needs, and he deserves your compassion.

If he is stealing plasma TVs and computers, while wearing designer clothes worth about three times my annual clothing expenditure, I would say that your commpassion is both misguided and wasted.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 06:20 PM

Thank you for your earlier comments Don.

The public debate is now starting to turn to WHY these events happened, not whether the individual events were right or wrong.

Maybe we should think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 06:45 PM

That's why I like both you guys (Don and Richard). Well said, both.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 07:22 PM

What is a fact and what is an opinion differ greatly. Evidence can be a help in any situation. A fact is an irrefutable statement, such as, "check this link to local court services for history of a case he won" or "the link is to a paper of his a university used for law students" or "the website removed the photographs thanks to him as he proved to them beyond doubt the individual owned the copyright". A fact cannot be disputed, as it refers to that which has already been proven. An opinion, on the other hand, is any statement that has been made, based on "feelings", "likes or dislikes", or "one's preferences", so therefore, opinions can vary widely and can be disputed and are not irrefutable. That "he said he was accomplished so I believe him" - is not a fact, but an opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 07:54 PM

Bluesman, your comments are tantamount to an accusation of lying which I bitterly resent.

My comments were not opinion but FACT, for which I am under no obligation to supply evidence at your demand.

I think it rather admirable that even in the face of your slanderous debasing of someone of whom you know only what you mistakenly infer from posts on an internet forum, that person chose not to give you the response you deserved.

It was left to me to inform you, which I did.

It is of no import whether you choose to believe or not, as your refusal to believe the truth says more about you than about Richard or myself.

Enjoy your petty, malicious, sniping. It's all apparently that you have since nothing that you post adds anything of worth to a discussion.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 08:17 PM

""The public debate is now starting to turn to WHY these events happened, not whether the individual events were right or wrong.

Maybe we should think about it.""

I have been trying for the whole of this week to point out that these crimes were not the result of deprivation and poverty.

And today's revelation that 87% of those so far dealt with in court are adults, the majority in work, and only 17% under the age of eighteen does tend to destroy the image of frustrated youngsters rioting because they have no jobs and no future.

What they actually lack is discipline, ambition, conscience, self respect and energy.

With a tiny minority of exceptions, the actions we have seen this week have been an exhibition of greed, criminality and destructive violence.

In spite of the Media attempts to blame it on "Society and Government", every new piece of evidence tends to strengthen the likelihood that we are dealing with feral criminals, the direct result of the freedom from discipline of their grand parents which led to a lack of respect growing worse with each generation.

I really did predict this back in the sixties, which my wife will confirm if asked.

It is a no brainer that if you don't discipline children they will not grow into self disciplined adults, nor will they discipline their offspring or in fact allow anybody else to do so, and Hey Presto, 2011, the year of riots and looting, when those Dr Spock chickens come home to roost.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 08:21 PM

Even Dr Spock himself, just a few years ago admitted that he got it wrong, the understatement of the last four decades.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 08:32 PM

Thanks Don, that confirms what I said, not fact, but an opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Frug
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 09:16 PM

"As far back as 1969 I predicted that we would see feral bands of youths on the streets of the UK.

Behold! The prophecy fulfilled!"

Erm......was this premonition informed by the teddy boys, mods and rockers, skinheads, hells angels,

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 09:38 PM

I think the idea started with Star Trek. Or it might have been Lord of the Flies.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 10:24 PM

I think we're all of age. 20 years we'll be dead/ Who cares what happens - who knows they may have stumbled upon the right thing to do.

they can give the rioters the Duke of Edinburgh's award for enterprise. Boil them up for glue. I don't care. neither do you.

Get a grip! Can you play candyman like Rambling Jack? Attend to the important things.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 02:43 AM

"Can you play candyman like Rambling Jack?"

Wish I could.

"Attend to the important things."

I'm trying Al, however me brain says "Yes", but me old fingers say "Fuck off".

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 02:52 AM

Bluesman, Don(Wysiwyg)T and I have had a number of bitter disagreements in the past, some very bitter indeed as we are diametrically opposed politically, but I've found him to be an honest, deep-thinking man who is prepared to debate robustly, yet remain the friend of those who disagree with him.

In short, he's a speaker of the truth. If 'truth' is subject to opinion or interpretation, then he speaks the truth as he truly believes it. Nothing more can be asked of anyone than that.

If Don makes a statement about Richard, I'd be inclined to believe it if I were you. Unless you have actual, documented proof of what you claim, I'd be inclined to drop it.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 03:18 AM

It is simply a symptom of society in decay!

The real looters were those who contributed to the economic meltdown, and I include most stratas of society in that.

The bankers, the financiers, the successive governments who wanted growth at any cost, and the bottom feeders...the consumers.

As retribution, the middle and lower orders see public services and wages being cut, inflation rising etc,while those at the top of the "democratic" shit heap are unaffected.

Dont you realise that people are getting angry? When they are angry they do desperate, sometimes stupid things.

There is no easy or painless answer to changing a socio/ political system, but change we must, for there is nothing else here but the road to Fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 03:25 AM

"liberal" Fascism of course......so thats all right then!

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 04:18 AM

It is being rumoured that pressure is being put on newspapers not to report disturbances that are actually happening. That would strike me as an unhealthy precedent.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 04:28 AM

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/comment/talking-politics/cameron-handled-riots-well-112716293.html

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 04:28 AM

Richard, the same thing happened years ago when TV broadcasters were ' encouraged ' not to show footage of football hooliganism.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 04:29 AM

I find myself much in agreement with Ake here - not a little surprisingly.
One of the interesting interviews of the week was with a young Salford woman who hadn't taken part in the rioting, but explained quite articulately how, if she found somebody's lost mobile phone she would take the trouble to try to return it, but she didn't see any great problem in helping herself to goods being looted from a large department store - "If they can do it to us, why can't we do it to them?"
I was also interested to hear of Wandsworth (my home for 20 years) Council's efforts to evict the family of a looter from their home in revenge for the looting at Clapham Junction - echoes much of the middle-class mindlessness to be found in abundance on this thread.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 04:42 AM

"Punishment is too easy a band aid for a wound. Try a little human understanding
and compassion for those who have been left out."

It seems to me that some form of punishment is the ONLY response to such heinous crimes. It would appear that the rioters committed their crimes because they thought that the worse they could expect, if caught, was a 'slap on the wrist'. I saw one (very young) rioter interviewed on TV who said: "What are they going to do to me? Give me an ASBO (Anti-social Behaviour Order)?" If they are not adequately punished then there is an increased likelihood of future riots.

We should also remember that the rioters showed no understanding and compassion for the people adversely affected by their crimes. Even if a person is 'disadvantaged' (arguable in this case) it doesn't exempt them from showing empathy for other members of their community.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 04:46 AM

Guardian reporting friction between police chiefs and politicians. I thought Hugh Orde was pissed off in that BBC interview 'tother day! Beeb didn't repeat any of *that* interview later as evidently it didn't suit their brown-nosing agenda with Cameron, but continued to repeat the exact same inaccuracies they'd previously been reporting, which Orde had firmly (and irritatedly) corrected in interview. ie: that Cameron had organised an emergency meeting to sort it all out and had "authorised" stronger tactics like the use of water cannon and rubber bullets. All of which was clearly bullshit spin on the truth of the matter which was that once Cameron eventually got back from his holiday, Orde in fact "briefed" Cameron on strategies that Orde and other chief officers had already begun to implement..

Specifically, I think the police are not merely annoyed at being publicly criticised for "timid" policing by the Tories, but also at political attempts to usurp public glory for subsequent stronger tactics:

"Sir Hugh Orde, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, described the role of the politicians as "an irrelevance", pointing out that by Monday the police had decided to mobilise huge numbers of officers in London.
He said he briefed Cameron about the decision after the prime minister returned from holiday on Tuesday morning. Derek Barnett, president of the Police Chief Superintendents' Association, also said the return of the politicians did not make any difference.
"The decisions to deploy police officers in large numbers was made well in advance of politicians becoming involved," he said, adding that the point of politicians returning from holiday was only to give "a sense that there is now someone back in charge of the country and offering political leadership".
Asked about claims by Cameron that policing had been too timid, Godwin said: "I think, after any event like this, people will always make comments who weren't there."
He insisted that the changes in tactics and police numbers were due to commanders, not politicians. "I think the issue around the numbers, the issue around the tactics – they are all police decisions and they are all made by my police commanders and myself."
Political sources described Orde as incandescent with Tory attempts to take credit for toughening the police line, adding that it underlined his fear that government plans for elected commissioners will politicise the police."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/12/police-revolt-cameron-reform-agenda

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 04:57 AM

"Dont you realise that people are getting angry? " ===

No, I don't, Ake. Not in the case of these people who opportunistically took the opportunity to riot, because it's fun, & loot, because they could and the stuff was there, on the coat-tails of a silent demo in protest at what some [tho by no means all] perceived as a heavy-handed police action against a known criminal believed [rightly] to be armed. The eventual violence was, at best and if at all, most tenuously connected to this; or to any 'anger' at their lot on the part of the designer-clothed, BlackBerry-toting mob, whose astounding demographic has been much rehearsed above.

It's comments like yours here, I fear, which make me angry. I mean, look-ee, Ake: JIM SAYS HE AGREES WITH YOU ~~ think on!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 05:02 AM

If all you barrack room politicians think that you can do better than our elected MPs then put your names forward!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 05:21 AM

Apologies for inaccuracy.

I have just realised that those figures were in fact 83% adult, 17% under 18.

Not that the difference invalidates anything, but in the interests of truth......

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 05:31 AM

I've been a wild rover for many a year
But now I'm on mudcat with verbal diarrhoea

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 05:51 AM

"I was also interested to hear of Wandsworth (my home for 20 years) Council's efforts to evict the family of a looter from their home in revenge for the looting at Clapham Junction - echoes much of the middle-class mindlessness to be found in abundance on this thread. "

Maybe you could take then in ? I heard fields can be bought cheap at the moment in out and out Ireland. Any next to your home ? They could share one with the travelling light fingered scum, next to the field full of anti Sinn Fein republicans, think of the fun you would have !

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 05:58 AM

""If Don makes a statement about Richard, I'd be inclined to believe it if I were you. Unless you have actual, documented proof of what you claim, I'd be inclined to drop it.""

I'll second that, since that ""opinion"" is nothing of the sort. It is not for me to produce the evidence which would blow you out of the water (GUESTBluesman, or whichever other IDs you hide behind). It is Richard Bridge's prerogative to make that decision, and he is not noted for self aggrandisement, either professionally or musically, competent though he is in both areas.

I suspect you cannot say the same, so why don't you go and play, so the adults can get on with sensible discussion.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 06:12 AM

""Erm......was this premonition informed by the teddy boys, mods and rockers, skinheads, hells angels,""

Yes I was aware of the activities:-

Teds v West Indian immigrants
Mods v Rockers
Skinheads v Anybody Dark skinned (predominantly Asians)
Hells Angels v Anybody who looked at them funny

The point is it's a non sequitur, since (although there was some damage to property, largely accidental) they were all busily engaged in kicking seven barrels of pus out of each other.

In general terms, and of course with some exceptions, outside of the two warring groups in each era the general public was not targetted.

That is the major difference. This week's riots were carried out with the intention to steal with impunity, by terrorising the public and creating havoc.

But the operative word, in spite of all the woolly minded guff about deprivation, was "STEAL"!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 06:13 AM

Ahhhhh, that all sounds so sweet Don. I can never really understand your U turns here though. One day you are throwing your rattle out of the pram, next day you are blowing smoke up someones ass. Must be one of those post jam tart things.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 06:18 AM

"If all you barrack room politicians think that you can do better than our elected MPs then put your names forward!!!" - Bonzo3Legs

That I am afraid would be a very long list indeed.

Had you made that statement about thirty or forty years ago it would be pretty short.

Unfortunately today the western world's democracies are "plagued" by "professional" politicians who outside of their own political party have never held a real job in their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 06:33 AM

Do the world a favour GUEST Bluesman.

Go and raffle youself.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 06:48 AM

"light fingered scum"
Pity they're not black or Asian, then you could throw in towel head, nigger or wog and give you a full house.
Keep it coming Bluesman - makes the rioting and looting just that much more understandable.
"the rioters showed no understanding and compassion for the people adversely affected by their crimes."
Unlike the politicians and bankers who are the soul of compassion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 08:05 AM

The distinct impression coming over in the reports is that the festival of rioting and looting we have just been witness to had absolutley nothing to do with race, colour, creed, social conditions, unemployment, despair, poverty or government policy (implemented or not). It was criminal pure and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 08:19 AM

Funny it mostly took place in deprived districts then.