BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist

Subject: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 01:08 PM

The word is out. The Tea Party is made up of Christian Fundamentalists who want to turn the US into a theocracy. They also want big government on their social issues, anti-choice,
immigration reform, (more deportations), less regulatory agencies, more "creationism" taught, anti-gay agendas and general reactionary right-wing hard line views.

They are religious fanatics who are represented by Bachmann and Perry. Be warned.

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/651861/atheists,_muslims_more_popular_than_tea_party_(also,_tea_party's_just_a_new_name_for_racist_christian_right)/


http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/152034/meet_the_christian_dominionist_%27prayer_warriors%27_who_have_chosen_rick_perry_as_their_vehicle_to_power/

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 01:09 PM

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/651861/atheists,_muslims_more_popular_than_tea_party_(also,_tea_party's_just_a_new_

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 01:11 PM

http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/152034/meet_the_christian_dominionist_%27prayer_warriors%27_who_have_chosen_rick_perry_as_their

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: bobad
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 01:54 PM

Tea Party America's Own Taliban

A thought provoking opinion piece from Al Jazeera written by Paul Rosenberg.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 02:02 PM

New Apostolic Reformation

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 02:30 PM

What is "Crosstian"? Or is it "Extian"?
Never heard of either.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: olddude
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 02:33 PM

Strings they are so far from Christian ya can't even see God from where they stand They know nothing about God ... as far off the track as Bin Ladin was with the Muslim religion.

It is power, it is control .. it is big money and politics

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 04:36 PM

It is Perry, Bachmann, Palin and Brownbeck......and others in the Tea Party, coming to an election near you.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 05:43 PM

Using "X" as a symbol or abbreviation for "Christ" has a long history.
The Greek counterpart of "X" is Chi, the first letter in Χριστός, the Greek word for "Christ."
However, the abbreviation for "Christian" is usually written "Xian" since the "t" is already part of "Christ."
It's certainly a convenient abbreviation to use in, say, a thread title, where space is limited.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 06:11 PM

Speaking of abbreviations, do you think its coincidence that both "Tea Party" and "Toilet Paper" can be represented by the abbreviation "TP"?

Personally, I think it's more a matter of the universe attempting to apply the same convenient two-letter label to asswipes of all sorts.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 06:15 PM

Oops! I spoke too soon in criticizing "Xtian." Apparently that is the favored abbreviation for "Christian" (although the "t" seems redundant to me).

"Xian" is apparently the transliteration of a word or name in Chinese, which is why you get so many hits on it with Google.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 12:17 AM

Personally, I think it's more a matter of the universe attempting to apply the same convenient two-letter label to asswipes of all sorts.

LMAO!!:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 02:11 AM

"It's certainly a convenient abbreviation to use in, say, a thread title, where space is limited."

I knew that of course, Jim, I was being sarcastic.

I guess I'm a little sensitive about the use of 'Xtian' as an abbreviation for Christian, as I seldom, if ever, see Christians using it, but I always seem to encounter it being used by rabid anti-Christians as if the full "Christian" is some kind of swear-word, a bit like the prissy practice of writing "f***ing" when what the writer means is.....well, you know what the writer means.

It seems to be a means of insulting the faith, or the followers of Christianity. Although why anyone feels so inadequate that they need to insult a faith-system is completely beyond me.

Maybe not intended that way in this case, as I noticed the OP used the full 'Christian' in the body of his/her post, and I apologise if I misunderstood.

I'll get my coat.............

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 02:48 AM

I fully agree Backwoodsman.

Desperate tactics from desperate people. What is so evil about Christianity? I am an atheist yet I accept that others can practice a religion which provides a degree of psychological comfort in hard times.

Also, many of the values promoted by Christians are good and valuable, its just the magic that I cant get my head around.

The real problem is that Christianity has been labelled "conservative" by the left, when the opposite is the case!

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 03:43 AM

I read many years ago that the X was used by Christians to identify each other (make an X in the dirt and then rub it out). If yer gonna be persecuted by say the Romans (pre-Constantine), how would ya find those of similar beliefs? Welcome to the secret handshake society.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 04:26 AM

I can NEVER work out how so many moderate Republicans finish off getting behind people who are so weird - Palin and Perry - the younger Bush. Governors of states even before they start looking at the Presidency. I heard it said if Arnie had been born in the USA - he would have been a strong candidate.

What's wrong with normal people? Cameron my have his faults but you can't imagine his family playing with stun guns, or him coming out with strange religious utterances.

different country, I guess you just see things differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 08:35 AM

The key, Big Al, can be found in the way in which the significance of a few minor issues has been magnified way beyond what it would be, given the actual impact they have on our daily lives. The three biggies are abortion, gun rights, and public expression of religious belief.

Anyone who's on the "right" side of those three issues will garner full support of Republicans, even those of a more moderate stripe. It makes no difference if he is a blithering idiot whose favorite pastime is feeding kittens and baby ducks through a wood chipper, as long as he's pro-life, pro-gun, and pro-religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 09:40 AM

Although why anyone feels so inadequate that they need to insult a faith-system is completely beyond me.

Unless its the Muslim faith, of course.

Desperate tactics from desperate people. What is so evil about Christianity?

One might ask "What is so evil about Islam?"

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 09:42 AM

The impression I have is that it works both ways, Bee-dubya-ell.

Going by Mudcat, the whole US political system and it's divisions over issues such as ones beliefs and gun control seems crazy to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 09:43 AM

What's so evil about them is the shit they do in the name of god, as though that gives them a right to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 10:17 AM

Well, there are Christians and then there are imposters...

And both groups know exactly which group they belong... Christ wasn't/isn't all that complicated... He said a lot of purdy common sense stuff about how we should treat one another...

I don't see Christ in most fundamentalists... I see a lot of the conflict and bullshit that is found in parts of the Old Testament...

Take George W Bush, for instance... No real follower of Christ can possibly believe that George is or has ever been a Christian... But with that said, that's George's problem until he makes it mine...

Bottom line??? I have no problems with a Christian being president... Just act like one, for "Christ (couldn't resist) sake"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 11:04 AM

The Tea Party claims to be Christian or Xtian, however you want to call it. Don't they have as much right to claim their Christianity as any other Christian?

This calls into question, what is Christianity? Everyone has their own definition but not one many can agree upon.

I don't have respect for "faith", I admit it. I do, however, have respect for the people who claim to practice it. I separate them as human beings from their "faith" and judge them on their behavior.

The problem is that when you think of the zealotry of the Tea Party, how do you separate that from the others who claim they are the true Christians? How do you sell that, logically?

Thomas Jefferson excised all from the bible except the Beautitudes and wrote his own version of the bible. Can you be a Christian if you don't believe the bible? How does that work?

Who are the true Christians? Lutherans? Catholics? Methodists? Quakers? et. al.
If they all believed the same thing, why separate into denominations? And why do they fight over that? (They do!)

The Tea Party has a Dominionist streak in that they want to turn America into a theocracy and instead of the Constitution replace that with the Ten Commandments.

They also believe in their version of Big Government (Theocracy) but think that what we have now is not acceptable and they need to replace it. When they say they are for small government, they are not telling the truth.

Abe Lincoln would turn over in his grave at the way Rick Perry and others are throwing around "State's Rights". (Are we going to have another Civil War?)

And what about the New Apostolic Reformation?   Are we going to have a president that forces the country to accept this abomination? (No gays, abortion, no imigrant labor, no Democrats (they are all demons via the NAR, no Oprah?) Read up on this stuff so you know what Bachmann, Perry, Palin and the Tea Party are all about.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 12:46 PM

Bobert, as much as you believe that what you practice is the true Christianity and that which fundamentalists, such as Tea Party members practice, is not, so also do they think that of your brand of Christianity. Such is the nature of belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 12:59 PM

The Freedom Works branch of the Tea Party is the multi million dollar lobbyist organization founded through Dick Army by the Koch Bros. and other big coal, gas and oil corporations. They want no government,

The other two branches are the christian right who felt abandoned by Bush and the economic collapse, then there all the other misinformed but scared people who wish a pox on both the Republic and Democrat parties.

Floating in the entire stew are the libertarians like Ron Paul amd latent and overt racists.



The broad brush title of this thread is wrong and wrong headed.

The biggest player in the next election are corporations and other countries with all thier unlimited funds they can throw behind US candidates for PResident and COngress. That Supreme Court decision some of you thought less than important will change everything this cuntry was founded on and all the values that support the dignity and independence of the people. IF you litteraly think Corporations are people too, then you drank the Koch Bros. Tea.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 01:26 PM

I do, however, have respect for the people who claim to practice it [faith].

I don't.

I reserve my respect those who ACTUALLY practice "it" - but only if "it" is benign and/or positive & benefits mankind - regardless of which "faith" the rest of mankind chooses to practice or NOT practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 02:26 PM

There is perhaps the answer to your question Greg....the practice of Christianity or Islam.....By and large, I see very few Christian suicide bombers.

Perhaps Christians in the West are developing a siege mentallity as they see their best principles come under attack...the pro lifers have a point, abortion should not be used as a birth control method, and that does not mean that it is necessary under certain circumstances.
They should not be forced to accept the homosexual definition of marriage.....when Christian marriage was defined by procreation and family life.

The sexuaslising of all facets of life for profit is also against all Christian principles.

All this "liberal" dogma is a concerted attempt to crush Christianity, which is defined by the left as a citadel of "conservatism"

In the real world the teachings of Christ were a form of primitive socialism.......the politicians are try ing a little more of the old divide and rule......and succeeding.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 02:36 PM

Sorry...that should read .....is NOT necessary under certain circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 02:42 PM

Ake, the labels aren't coming from the left. The TPers are the ones that wave their Christian fundamentalism like a flag. Perhaps you should find a way to let them know about the socialist elements. I think liberals have a tendency to dislike holier-than-thou know-it-alls on the right. I wish they disliked the same traits in themselves.

I understand it may be difficult to get a clear picture of the political climate in the US if you're not right in the middle of it--it's hard enough if you ARE.

I'm another atheist who doesn't have anything against Christ's teachings or Christianity as he intended it. He said "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" (I may be paraphrasing) and that pretty much blows up the whole anti-tax stance of the TP.

It may onlybe me, but I'm seeing the TP more like a cult than a political party. They've just replaced the Kool Aid and are inviting the whole country to commit suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 02:48 PM

I see very few Christian suicide bombers.

Suicide bombers, granted. Perhaps their devotion to The Christ, Jesus simply isn't strong enough, like the martyrs of old, who were prepared to die for their faith.

But how about plain bombers & other mass murderers? Plenty of those about - Tim McVeigh, Aryan Nations, Right to Lifers, that nut in Norway to name only a few. Plenty more "Christians"[sic] where they came from

I see you've adopted the deeply psychotic "Christians Under Siege" paranoid fairytle.

the pro lifers have a point, abortion should not be used as a birth control method

No one's asking them - or compelling them-to have an abortion.

They should not be forced to accept the homosexual definition of marriage No one is asking them or compelling them to do so.

The sexuaslising of all facets of life for profit is also against all Christian principles.

How about the promulgation & imposition of Christian[sic] principles for profit? Plenty of examples of that.
All this "liberal" dogma is a concerted attempt to crush Christianity

Way beyond bullshit, Pharoah, & into the realm of paranoid delusion. Get help.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 03:02 PM

"render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's"..... and that pretty much blows up the whole anti-tax stance of the TP.

You betcha! It commands people to respect state authority and to pay the taxes it demands of them.

Paul the Apostle (Romans 13) also reminds us that Christians are obliged to obey all earthly authorities & as they were introduced by God, disobedience to them equates to disobedience to God.

Apparently the Tea Potty's understanding of scripture is on the level of their understanding & knowledge of the U.S. Constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: ollaimh
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 03:22 PM

i'm with bobert. no one who takes the new testement seriously could see george w bush as a christian. the xtians use the old testement all the time to justify their non christian views.

modern christianity was corrupted by the ascention to power starting with st augistine's dity of god right up to the many european christian empoires thast routinely committed genocide in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, and some right up to the near present. the present if you include the on going massacres of guatemalean natives by americam militrist sponsered evangellicals.they are a little subtler now but back in the regean era the american fundalmentalist supported government of rios mont killed a quarter of a million natives. this was openly supported by pat robertsons groups and many other american fundamentalists.(robertson later admitted this happened but claims "mistakes were made"--pretty lame when you are supporting genocide)

as to akenatons idea where are the suicide bomber? the christian militarists don't need them. they are powerfull enough to kill their targets and get away safely. the suicide bomber is the weapon of the powewrless(at leasst powerless within the conventional power structure).

nice as it would be for these old testement kooks to go away we do have to find strategies to deal with them so they cause as little harm as possible--same as with fanatic muslims.(and of course most muslims do not support the tactics or aims of the fanatics).

sadly the canadian prime minister just signed a deal supporting the genocidal government of guatemala. when issues concern native the military capitalists have no restraint. if they ever admit wrong towards natives once they have to admit their whole world is based on militarism and genocide.

those who began the march of the "onward christian soldiers" in the uk, similarily can't admit wrong on any event in ireland (or scotland or wales)or they would have to admit their whole system was based on exploiting the lands and wealth of others.

as gorte vidal said:"the english practiced genocide in ireland, thenn took the show on the road, arriving on the coast of california all dressed up for empire and no one left to kill--soo they invaded the phillipines"

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 03:45 PM

I think perhaps "render unto Ceasar" may have been a metaphor, much of the New Testament is.

But there is no mistaking Jesus's actions in routing the money changers, or his teachings regarding fellow humans less fortunate than ourselves.

I'm sorry Ollaimh, I know nothing of the actions of the Guatemalan govt, but I'll try to find out.
Are you sure their alleged genocide is religiously motivated?
Most genocide is practiced for economic reasons, in underdeveloped nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 03:55 PM

I think you are right Jeri....but rather than a cult, I see them as a "popular movement".....never forget, we lefties are in the minority almost everywhere, if we want to succeed we must adapt and compromise with the majority, not try to fight then with tooth and claw.......remember the teachings of the philosopher Jesus.

They were correct then and they are correct now.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST,Geiri
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 04:33 PM

To Guest999-
"Christ" in Greek is Christos, where the Ch is written as a X (chi). So, it's his initial. Most of the New Testament was written in first or second-century Greek. The rest was in Aramaic.
I think that the secret symbol was a fish, because of the Greek initials of the words for Jesus (~Isus) Christ (Xristos) God (Theos) Son (Ios) Savior (Sotir).
I think the problem with the label "fundamentalist Christians" is that they ignore the fundamentals, which are to love God supremely, and your neighbor as yourself. Pretty much the same as in Judaism. Hating people who don't agree with your beliefs is not one of the fundamentals.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 04:34 PM

I believe that it was Gandhi who said "I like your Christ, but I do not much like your Christians".

BTW, my entirely unscientific survey of idiot drivers indicates that bad driving is directly related to the number of fish, doves and Republican bumper stickers on their cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 05:37 PM

GUEST,Geiri, just a post or two above, has it exactly right.

Get a good red-letter edition of the Bible and read what Jesus is supposed to have actually said, and you then have the real fundamentals of Christianity.

Much of the rest is goat-feathers.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 05:55 PM

Thank you, Geiri. It was likely the fish that was toed into the dirt then erased. You describing the Greek letters made the bell go off. Much appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 07:05 PM

The nature of Christian is in the teaching and following of Jesus Christ. It is not in any denomination whatever. The fighting between Catholics, Protestant etc is not the path of Christ. The New Testament is the new Testament ... amazing how so many can't grasp that concept. In no written work ever talking about Christ was hate and judgment of others a concept ... Again they are so far from Christian they cannot even see Christ from where they are at ... Follow some preacher or some priest if they like .. Me I will follow Christ and his main directives. Love God with all your heart, love your neighbor as yourself. That what you do to the least of my brothers, you do to me ...

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 07:31 PM

if you had a friend who told you that you were sinning if you looked a woman with lust in your heart - you'd think he was going bonkers.

Pay Jesus the compliment of honesty. Tell him next time you pray, his Dad steered him wrong on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 07:32 PM

Yo, Bobad...

If yer using your "faith" for marketing then you probably don't have any...

It ain't "my faith v. your faith"...

Either you get Jesus or you don't... You can't dig Christ and turn your back on the poor... Period... That ain't negotiable for folks that made it to the New Testament... The policies that the the Tea Party exposes turns its back on the poor...

Time to call these phonies for what they are and if they want to claim the banner of "Christian" they are going to have to walk the the walk... I resent them using Jesus to gain ***power***...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 07:47 PM

Ya missed the whole concept Big Al. Not to get into theology .. but what he was saying is if your mind is on lust it is not on God it is not being a better person .. It is then on the worldly matters. What did he do when a woman caught in adultery was to be stoned. How did he handle that .. it was the law back then .. Let you with no sin throw the first stone .. then when they all left he said is no one left to condemn you ... neither do I ...

Ya missed his point my friend. He got it right and taught us right .. it is just difficult to follow ... it is supposed to be .. one cannot know good if they don't have evil in the world .. ya can't know love without hate in the world .. Ya can't know God if you are only thinking in the terms of the world always ...

Hard path .. yup ... will anyone get it right .. nope but all we can do is try our best.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 08:10 PM

I love the woman caught in adultery story .. he is telling them who are you to judge .. you are sinners also ... Why don't the preachers get that message when they are slamming everyone about everything ... Why because it is power ... all about power .. all about money ... Not about God

While be tortured and murdered what did he say "forgive them, they don't know what they are doing"

That is the God I believe in

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Big Ballad Singer
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 09:03 PM

Cindy Jacobs is a screwball, and the whole "New Apostolic Reformation" is nothing but a power-grabbing exercise. Many, many people who subscribe to the NAR's garbage are emotionally starved and desperate for validation of their whacked-out beliefs. They flock to these charlatans because they "prophesy" that these sad, lonely, emotionally-stunted people will "one day", "very soon", be some kind of spiritual super-force... IF, of course, they give the right amounts of money and ingest the right mystical BS from their "apostles".

If you want to debate the LITERAL validity of the historical accounts of Jesus and His apostles, that's one thing. If you want to make up stories that validate your particular twisting of the Bible, that's yet another thing. In the end, however, to be able to make what the NAR is and stands for somehow compatible with EITHER the Bible or with Church history is absolutely impossible.

In short, the NAR is just the kind of thing that the so-called "Tea Party" needs in their corner... people who will attempt to once again galvanize the religious far-right into a motivated voting block. God will have absolutely nothing to do with making the TP's will come to pass... it will be the same old-boy, old-money network that got others elected.

The TP's association with the NAR and lots of the other people associated with so-called "evangelical Christianity" both sickens and scares me.

Full disclosure here: I was once a staff pastor at a church, I am an ordained minister and have studied Church history for many years. The aberration that is "Protestant" Christianity (esp the US variety) is the source and cause of all this political mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 09:18 PM

BBS well said ... very well said indeed and it scares me and saddened me also ... The worst kind of person is one that uses the Lord for their own power play and personal gain. The Catholic church in its day had the "give x number of dollars and bam you could do anything cause you were now going to heaven regardless" boy I wonder if they wanted their money back when they died. These people today have turned their twisted corrupt version of religion into their own money making machine and political force. An insult to God and all of us that do believe in Christ. Those that follow are confused and are being lead into a dark place I think

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 09:29 PM

Exactly what I have been talkin' about, BBSinger...

Bob Dylan said it well when he said:

"If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war"

Or was it Pete Seegar...

No matter, say's it all...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 10:58 PM

A brief passage from one of my favorite science fiction novels—but it's much more than a science fiction novel. The scene is toward the end of the book; a discussion among a group of Jesuit priests as to why God could have allowed this disaster on a planet in the Alpha Centauri system to have happened. And (spoiler alert!) it tends to explain the enigmatic title:   The Sparrow, by Mary Doria Russell.

"Matthew ten, verse twenty-nine," Vincenzo Guiliani said quietly. "'Not one sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it.'"

"But the sparrow still falls," Felipe said.
                                                   -pg 401

Don Firth

P. S. What are a couple of Jesuit priests (not the ones in the scene above) doing on the Earth's first interstellar mission? You'll have to read the book. It's very well written and most thought-provoking.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 11:04 PM

Mathew also quotes Jesus saying "Nothin' hidden that won't one day be found and no secrets kept that won't one day be common knowledge"...

Bad news for the phonies...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: LadyJean
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 11:44 PM

I saw a great bumper sticker: "Tea Parties Are For Little Girls With Imaginary Friends".

Chistians have made the world a better place.

People calling themselves Christians have done some incredibly horrible things.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Musket
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 05:23 AM

Perhaps the world's media needs to get more information out from correspondents brave and willing enough to go into Dumbfuckistan?

From this side of the pond, it seems worrying too. Not in terms of wanting to interfere in how you run your country, you understand. You are far better than us in recent years at telling others how it should be. We are just good at giving you the respectability to go ahead and do it.

No, the tea party is a concern here too. If you look at the recent rioting, the right wing element of the conservative party are coming from under their rocks and saying the fault is gay couples being allowed to adopt, political correctness including humouring Islamic fundamentalists, not enough emphasis on Jesus, (and reminding us, sadly, that we are one of the few countries with a state religion, even if less than 1% are practicing Christians...)

The tea party is starting to take effect here too. T'was ever thus, although it was always the blue rinse brigade indulging in casual racism with the vicar at the local garden party.

People with faith ask me why I don't use scripture as a moral code. (Ok, just one, and he smiles too much.) I answer that scriptures are so obtuse, they can form the moral code for Desmond Tutu. But they also formed the moral code for the crusaders, Spanish inquisition and buggering priests.

The 20th country belonged to USA, in the same way as 18th and 19th century belonged to us. (The sun never sets on the British Empire and all that.) But your fundamentalist tea party dudes should beware. USA is losing its international status, as China and India become the baseline economies, so other countries may feel less inclined to bow before the dollar, and if your politicians lose credibility, sadly so will the millions of real nice people, a few dozen or so I am proud to call personal friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 09:07 AM

I think I have seen it suggested that the fish in the sand thing was to draw the curve of half the fish, which the other person completed, if Christian.

The render unto Caesar statement is very nuanced. Firstly, the group was in the Temple, and there should have been no Roman coins there (that's why there were money changers). Secondly, a perfectly valid interpretation of the the first half of the statement, about rendering to God what is God's, is that everything is God's. Therefore Caesar has no claim on anything. That would have been recognised by Jewish listeners, but misunderstood by Roman eavesdroppers, who could not have accused Jesus of sedition. It has, of course, been misunderstood by many in power since.

Paul's writing on the subject of secular authorities while in prison, and his work presumably read before distribution is interesting. How would you interpret something written by Aung San Suu Kyi that urged unquestioning obedience to the Myanmar junta?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 09:59 AM

Aung San Suu Kyi--what a gal. I wrote letters on her behalf through AI. Canada made her an honourary citizen of this country. That woman has more awards for her humanitarianism than Carter had little liver pills.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 10:57 AM

Secondly, a perfectly valid interpretation of the the first half of the statement

The ENTIRE statement is more germaine than bits & pieces thereof.

and his work presumably read before distribution is interesting...

Presumably? Pure supposition. What is documented about the time he was under "house arrest"? And when was the work in question "distributed"?

He never recanted or modified the words in question.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: olddude
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 11:12 AM

The Christian path is an impossibly hard one to follow. It should be, it was made by God and only God can walk it perfect. Some people wander around the woods and never find it. Some walk on it and say this is too hard and jump off for good. Some walk and walk, get off for a bit, then try again. There are others like the far right that sit under a shade tree saying they already walked it and you should step here or step there.   However, what pleases God is how hard we try. We will never get it right, but it is the attempt that makes all the difference in this life, and we walk it alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 11:19 AM

Surely the importance of Dylan's song is that if God's on your side, then he'll START the next war. And quite a lot of the time it seems horribly plausible that many think that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 11:42 AM

Regarding the "Render unto Caesar" line, there WAS a coin physically present in that verse. There's quite a bit of discussion of it on Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 11:44 AM

But fundamentalists would, by definition, pretty much have to take that literally, wouldn't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 11:46 AM

And here is some more discussion on the nuances, at least some of which would have been known to his audience. I didn't make it up.

Rendition

Also, Romans is the only place Paul addresses this subject, and it sits in the flow without relating to anything preceding or following it. It has been argued that it is a later interpolation, not by Paul. I may have drawn upon others' suppositions as to Paul's status at the time (apparently earlier than the persecution), or as to the nature of Nero's rule at the time of writing, but from what is known of him, it is hard to see him as ordained by God. This was a guy who went through the streets of Rome with his mates behaving like the gangs in the UK last week, so the bit about not not fearing the powers if you did no evil would have seemed a bit naive.

I'm looking for more on this - some find it difficult, as I do, and some find it clear with no problems. Odd.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 12:19 PM

The Tea Party doesn't care if the US loses international status. They want to replace our democracy with their theocracy. People in Europe and other countries have to get that.
Fanaticism doesn't respond to world pressure.

Perry and Bachmann represent candidates that would try to change the perception of the US as a "Christian Nation" following biblical laws. Unfortunately, this infection is spreading to the UK and other countries.

This is home-grown Christian Taliban as insidious as Islamic extremism and will create
home-grown terrorism if given support and sanction by the likes of the Tea Party.
What happened in Norway could easily be exported to the US.

Remember that Perry and Bachmann are running on Tea Party doctrine.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Big Ballad Singer
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 01:27 PM

Stringsinger is absolutely right. What people in the US have to understand is that what you're reading and hearing from Bachmann, Perry, et al is NOT the sum-total nor deepest depth of their beliefs and policies.

These people are influenced by the writings of men who support the totally unquestioned right of just about anyone to bear arms SPECIFICALLY SO that they might train their "Christian" militia to police their streets and enforce "Biblical" law and "justice".

This is NOTHING short of the "chickens" of the strife between Isaac and Ishmael coming home to roost. (For those who don't know the Old Testament story, Ishmael was the illegitimate son of Abraham and his servant-girl, Hagar. Abraham went to her to have a son because he did not believe that God would provide him an heir through his aged wife, Sarah. Sarah later conceived and had Isaac, who would become Abraham's legitimate heir.)

The strife between the descendants of Isaac (historically representative of the Israelites) and those of Ishmael (historically, the other Arab nations) has been carried on for centuries; each has used force, military might and even outright attempts at total genocide to try to rule the other. Their interpretations of Biblical and/or Quranic law have differed, yet they have been in lock-step as far as their willingness to take their defense of "truth" to its bloodiest and most tragic extremes.

The so-called evangelical right in the US is the bastard stepchild of the Israeli/Arab conflicts, and the far-right nutcases here in the States have learned from their "parents" very well... they are learning that "might makes right" is supposed to solve everything.

One of the reasons that the quality of education in the US is so wildly disparate is because in some places, you have economically-advantaged people on the "left" who are actively trying to defend their students from the equally-priviledged right-wingers who are insisting on making experiential faith and religious dogma into mandatory curriculum. In other places, however, you have very DISadvantaged people who are being denied the same educational opportunities as others, and their families are often only receiving help from community organizations, many, many of which are church-based (church - read: evangelical Protestant). Those people are the "masses" that are being courted by the Bachmanns and Perrys of the political world... they are taking the very real needs and struggles of the lower-class citizens and wooing those people with the promise of a "better tomorrow", or "pie in the sky". They're promising them that in exchange for their votes, these "righteous warriors" will turn their country into one where "God's law" is the rule of law.

See? The power-hungry candidates (sheiks and imams) are rallying the poor under the banner of "let our power and money be used to dictate both legal AND moral standards in our country".

Soon, if these buffoons get their way, women will be served summonses in the street for not dressing right, people will be fined and/or arrested for not being in a church on a Sunday... it will be John Calvin's Geneva all over again.

Do the reading... Calvin is a HERO to many of these evangelical stormtroopers, and the ruthless rule of his proto-Taliban in Switzerland centuries ago would be heaven on earth for these wackos.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: olddude
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 01:48 PM

Man are you right. One of the guys I know that supports it fully is a Christian Right wing guy. (I loosely use the term Christian here because to me he is not) However, one comment he made to me is what we need is a Calvinist revival ...

I cringed ... I couldn't believe what I am hearing ... in his window he has a big home made sign that reads "I support Israel"

I guess the Arab people don't count for anything ...

Good Grief .. if he was alone I wouldn't worry but sadly many out there like him

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 04:21 PM

Sorry guys.....you're ALL fuckin' mad! or manipulated....waken up and read what you have been writing

I thought the OLD conspirisy theorists were nuts!

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 05:08 PM

Ake, I'm right here on the scene, and what is said in the last few posts is right on the money. No conspiracy "theory." I have been proselytized at by some of these folks! They're bloody serious.

I think they're prime nut-cases, but I would not make the mistake of underestimating how dangerous they could be.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 05:23 PM

America's Taliban. Right there for all to see.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Big Ballad Singer
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 06:09 PM

Akenaton, I don't know where in the world you found sand deep enough to bury your head in that far! It's obvious you haven't spent much time around the underbelly of the evangelical "Christian" movement.

I'm sure that people like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer, two smiley, photogenic self-help gurus, are the kinds you think of when you think about American "Christianity". They are ignorant of our religious and political climate at best.

Google a man named R.K. Rushdoony in your free time... he was a pro-Israel (read: rabidly anti-Arab) zealot, an advocate of armed Christian theocratic law enforcement ON THE LEVEL OF COMMON CITIZENS, NOT just a standard military configuration, and a person deeply committed to the laughable lie that men like Washington, Jefferson, etc, were Bible-believing, evangelical Christians who believed exactly as Rushdoony himself did.

I personally know families that are sending their children to what are supposed to be public-speaking and other character-building classes and "camps". The organizations hosting these events are actually actively working to indoctrinate these children in their Dominionist theology and philosophy.

While it is often parroted to the press by certain evangelical leaders
that they do not, in fact, hold to Dominionism or its cousin, Christian Reconstructionism, these denials only placate the uninformed. Certainly, there are political and theological differences between many evangelical sects, and often, those differences seem to be insurmountable.

Watch, however, a documentary like "Jesus Camp", and see exactly how the non-Calvinist, hyper-experiential mysticism of one subset of evangelicals is married permanently to the hard-line ethos of those who wish for America to be run by theocratic, Christian men.

With the exception of some very relatively minor theological differences, you could take the sound-bites of the wackos who see angels flying around the room (like the nutjobs of the NAR) and exchange them quite neatly for the narrow-minded, racist and homophobic diatribes of the Dominionists. These are people who believe that it is God's "will", and therefore their duty, to stop at nothing to ascend the political and economic ladders in this country in order that their interpretations of Biblical principles might be regarded as enforceable laws.

Conspiracy theory, my ass... I have met some of these men, and talked with and listened to them, and can tell you that even on the most grass-roots level, there are people who would gladly take your friends, neighbors, family members and even YOU straight to prison for not adhering to their brand of "faith-based politics", which is really to say "political religion".

When "God" insists that MY special group of "true believers" MUST be the only ones in charge, the shadows of the concentration camps and US detention centers for the Japanese loom very, very large indeed.

Oh, and just in case you don't think these people are all that strictly hard-line about their beliefs, take a minute to ask yourself a question: Why is it that the closer you get to the top of the US political food-chain (when referring to the religious right), the more and more homogenous the culture is? It's because the so-called Christian right in the US is more like Amway than it ever was like Jesus. You, too, self-professed Christian, will find yourself shunned if you don't follow these people unswervingly. Your "dance card" will only be as full as your wallet and your gun-rack are.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 02:39 AM

In The UK, we don't have a constitution as such, but in The USA you do.

If it doesn't protect you from dangerous fundamentalist bullshit, why do you cling to it?

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 03:04 AM

Do people not have the right to try to stop their religious beliefs being undermined and re-defined?

To oppose abortion on demand?

T protest against the promotion of sexual behaviour which carries with it massive rates of hiv infection?

Do you think that opposition to these issues is dictatorial, or an expression of free speech?

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Musket
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 03:38 AM

Expression of free speech in that it can be for free action.

Hence, you don't have to be gay, you don't have to have an abortion.

The line you cross is when you force the limitations on that freedom on others.

But you know that, Akenaton. You have form.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 11:23 AM

People have the right to protect their religious convictions but not to force them on others as evangelicals want to do.

They have no right to override the decision of a woman for free choice. This is dictatorial.

HIV is transmitted in a variety of ways, hypodermic needles through drug use, unwitting heterosexual encounters, prostitution and not just promiscuity. Education is the best source of protection here, not draconian dictatorial laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 11:41 AM

I've been thinking about trying to get into one of Bachmann's rallies and ask her if she actually ever made it as far as the New Testament... I'm sure that if were to ask that it would get picked up by the media and then put the Tea Party on the defense having to explain why they advocate polices that go against the teaching of Christ... That's what needs to be done here... Just call these people on what they perceive as their strength...

I've been kinda keeping an eye on where she is going to be that I can drive to and have half a chance of not only getting in but also an opportunity to be heard...

It's kinda like the Christian right thinks they own Christianity... They clearly don't... They don't even understand the teachings of Jesus or they wouldn't be so intent on stripping away safety net programs for the poor... That is about as anti-Jesus as it comes...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 12:08 PM

Bobert, with that post you have nailed it in one.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Big Ballad Singer
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 02:20 PM

Bobert FTW!

Really, though, as Stringsinger said, the problem is not who is "right" or "wrong" on any particular issue; the problem is one of not allowing one side to be able to DICTATE their choice as law.

For instance, I am not homosexual, I am a hetero man with a wife and children. I have worked at jobs where the employer provided, partially subsidized or at least made available for purchase some form of health, dental, vision and/or therapeutic benefits. I sometimes availed myself of the benefits for my individual use, already having secured other coverage for my wife and children.

What I never understood was why ANYONE should be denied the right to receive benefits as part of a "family unit". The principles governing the definitions of "family" and "marriage" and even "domestic partnership" were (and still are) biased towards a conservative-Republican, evangelical Christian agenda.

As long as there are ANY people who are forced to accept one personal choice as law or are denied their freedom to choose under law, said laws are unconstitutional and are hostile to the very foundations of a truly free society.

The so-called Christians in question are just coming to realize that their belief system has no supernatural power, so they must force their issues and demand legal obedience where spiritual conversion is impossible. It's the same issue that ultimately crushed the last vestiges of the movement started by Jesus under the weight of papal greed and episcopal corruption.

Today, we just have a new power-hungry bunch that are trying to use the force of human law rather than the law of love (James 2:8).

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 02:26 PM

Frank....

What about the "rights" of the unborn child? In my youth most people abstained from full sex before marriage, as most of us recognised that should we make a girl pregnant we would have to face up to our responsibilities to the girl and the child.
Today young people are encouraged to believe that there is no such thing as personal responsibility.....the State will take care of everything, so long as we keep buying the baby products and using the childcare services.
If you dont want the bother of a baby just get rid!

Latest hiv figures from unaids over 70% of new cases are among homosexuals.....and rising steadily. The rates in all other groups are falling.

Unaids and Avert are attempting to conceal these figures by puting all the groups together, thus they are able to claim that hiv rates are falling.    "liberalism" at its very worst.

You are fortunate to have CDC....the only honest and independent organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 02:34 PM

Well, yeah, BBSinger...

But it is about who is right or wrong...

The right wants to dictate and rule... We don't need dictators and rulers... That makes them wrong in my book... The policies are just the details that the dictators get around to once they have 100% control...

That is my point in wanting to confront Bachmann about her "faith", or lack thereof??? The right wants people to think that they are the only people of "faith" so they can use that to dictate and rule... In my confronting her on this issue I think I can take that card out of their hand...

BTW, as a long time leftie, am am quite tolerant of differences between people... Might of fact, as long as folks aren't endangering me, I embrace diversity... I think most of us on the left possess this tolerance... Those on the right??? Not so??? They didn't like MLK or RFK so they had them killed... They don't like abortion so they kill doctors... This is the M.O. of the right... 100% lock/goose-step rigidity... I can not begin to imagine what it would be like if the Tea Party had control of all 3 branches of government but fascism comes to mind...

"And then they came for me..."

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 03:41 PM

When I was attending the University of Washington in the early 1950s, before I changed my major to Music, I was majoring in English Literature and Creative Writing. One of the elective courses I took was entitled "The Bible as Literature." The point of the course was to read assigned portions of the Bible AS LITERATURE. Short stories, essays, poetry, et al, and the professor made it abundantly clear that what we read would be treated as literature. There would be no religious interpretations, nor would there be religious discussion in class. And any and all attempts to turn class discussion into a religious discussion (and there were a number of attempts by certain class members) were summarily and firmly stomped on by the professor.

This was the major stipulation that allowed the English Department of the U. of W. (a tax supported state university) to offer this course AT ALL.

It was a very interesting course, and I must say I learned a great deal from it. Among the most valuable and useful things I learned was that when some evangelist or Bible-thumper started quoting Bible verses at me in an attempt to prove a point, I was able to quote them right back, putting them into context, and point out that in context, it was obvious that the verses being quoted meant something quite different.

While working at the Boeing Airplane Company, I was often approached by a fellow named Ivan. Ivan should have been working on production illustrations as others in the department were, but he spent most of his day going from drawing table to drawing table hell-bent on saving souls. He and I got into a number of religious discussions as I fended off this hard-charging fundamentalist zealot. My ability to blow him out of the water most of the time when he started quoting scripture to me prompted him to acknowledge that I was a rather knowledgeable Bible scholar, and he wanted to know my religious background.

Spotty. My parents went to church occasionally, mostly on holidays like many Americans, and my mother in particular was a bit of a seeker. She tried many churches, but she found them all pretty unsatisfactory. My main introduction to Scriptures was in the U. of W. lit course, where, as I say, we read great chunks of the Bible, not just selected bits and pieces.

I told Ivan about taking the Bible as Literature course at the university. He had a wall-eyed fit about the university "teaching the Bible like secular literature." Finding me too hard a nut to crack, he began to leave me alone and concentrate on other people, trying to save their souls. He spent so much time away from his drawing board that his supervisor got on his case. Ivan argued that he was "doing God's work" which was more important that doing engineering drawings. And the company fired his ass.

But a few months later, I found out that the fundamentalist church that Ivan belonged to had filed a law suit against the University of Washington for "teaching religion." The university won the case, but it was a pain in the neck and, of course, it cost the university legal fees.

Another conversation I had with Ivan had to do with missionaries, and how proud he was that his church had missionaries all over the world, including in the United States. I happened to mention that this was a two-way street, and that there was a Vedanta center on north Capitol Hill in Seattle, complete with a genuine Swami from India. Every Sunday, Swami Prabhavananda (whom a friend of mine insisted on irreverently calling "Probably a banana") gave, not sermons, but lectures on Hindu beliefs and philosophy. Basically, said I, the Swami is a Hindu missionary to the United States.

If Ivan had a hissy-fit over the U. of W.'s lit course, he went positively apoplectic at the idea of a non-Christian religion having the "unmitigated gall!!" to send missionaries to a "Christian country" like the United States. Once again, a few months later, Ivan's church tried to file a law suit to have the Vedanta Center expelled from the country. Of course they immediately crashed head-on into the First Amendment.

Now, Ivan is not the only one of these Bozos I've crossed blades with. Ivan and those of his ilk—and I have heard the same kind of rhetoric from nationally known members of the "Christian" Right-Wing, some of whom aspire to the Presidency—would make dandy Grand Inquisitors, more than willing to send those who don't believe exactly as they do to be burned at the stake as heretics.

They are a royal pain in the ass when they accost you on the street, slam you against a wall, shove tracts into your pocket, and demand to know if you've been "saved." And even follow you into a restaurant or other place of business, spouting "God's message." Yes, it's happened to me.

Believe me, if these same people manage to acquire any kind of secular power, LOOK OUT!

Weve seen it many times before. Historical examples are many, but all one need mention to make the point are the Inquisition in Europe, witch burning in the early days of the colonies (by people who say they came to the colonies for religious freedom!!), and the Taliban.

Don't underestimate these folks!! They mean business!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 04:29 PM

I've met a few Ivans in my day, too, Don... I think of them as people who have so little "belief" in their "faith" that they over compensate in the other direction... Like reformed smokers...

Yes, they are dangerous... They use their phony "faith" as swords... They are control freaks... And they break laws and justify it by saying that God wants them to do that... I don't know of any religion where God orders people to hurt and kill other people... And, yes... History is replete with examples... And it shouldn't be lost on anyone that this kind of thinking was behind 9/11...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 04:42 PM

In my youth most people abstained from full sex before marriage

Well, ake, maybe the girls you hung out with...

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 08:57 AM

From the CDC (which Ake says is honest and independant)
"African Americans and Hispanics/Latinos are the racial/ethnic groups most affected by HIV. African Americans represent approximately 14% of the US population, but accounted for 44% (21,200) of all new HIV infections in 2009. Hispanic/Latinos represent approximately 16% of the total US population, but accounted for 20% (9,400) of all new HIV infections in 2009 {latest year for which complete stats are available}.

So, Ake, does that justify defending the "rights" of Christian fundamentalists to be racist? Just trying to follow your logic here.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 10:54 AM

From the CDC (which Ake says is honest and independant)
"African Americans and Hispanics/Latinos are the racial/ethnic groups most affected by HIV. African Americans represent approximately 14% of the US population, but accounted for 44% (21,200) of all new HIV infections in 2009. Hispanic/Latinos represent approximately 16% of the total US population, but accounted for 20% (9,400) of all new HIV infections in 2009 {latest year for which complete stats are available}.

So, Ake, does that justify defending the "rights" of Christian fundamentalists to be racist? Just trying to follow your logic here.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 11:21 AM

Today young people are encouraged to believe that there is no such thing as personal responsibility

By their Tea Potty parents, who AZLSO have no sense of personal reaponsibility.

What about the "rights" of the unborn child?

A mass of undifferentiated cells does not have "rights", Pharoah.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 05:04 PM

The so-called "unborn child" rights are subservient to that of his/her mother. Most of the so-called "unborn child" is an underdeveloped life form incapable of functioning as a full human being. The "unborn child" is a meme that could be applied to "the dead" after life has ended as well.

it's again so interesting how the anti-abortionists care more for their hypothetical "unborn child" then for the needs of living and breathing children who are being neglected through cuts in social programs and the deterioration of education by the Congressional Anti-Abortion Religious Wing-Nuts. It's completely hypocritical.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 05:27 PM

Frank....of course I care about child poverty and cuts in child services, but that is a real problem which requires a political solution.

When we carelessly create a living being only to kill it rather than live up to our responsibilities, then there is something very wrong with our society

Even the animals protect and nurture their young.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 05:28 PM

it's again so interesting how the anti-abortionists care more for [..]

Perhaps but what is more interesting to me is that going by Mucdat, there appear to me for example to be none with a generally socialist outlook who consider abortion wrong and none with a generally capitalist outlook who are pro abortion...

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 05:43 PM

Well Jon....I consider myself "socialist" yet am against abortion as simply another means of birth control.

I do not consider the "liberals" who comprise the majority here as truly socialist, they are Quislings for the capitalist system.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 05:47 PM

True ake, but you are not an American voter are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 05:55 PM

I see what's going on here and I understand. I just found this news article and thought it should be brought to people's attention.

"Report: Male Hair Loss 7 Times More Painful Than Childbirth
AUGUST 23, 2011 | ISSUE 47•34

LOS ANGELES—According to a study released Wednesday by the California Pain Medicine Center, subjects suffering from male- pattern baldness were found to experience a level of physical pain at least seven times more intense than that experienced by women during childbirth. "Clinical studies show that as hair gradually separates from the scalp, men experience intensifying waves of all-consuming pain equivalent to having their insides ripped out through the thousands of tiny follicles on their head," said Vincent Kwan, who led the all-male research team that carried out the study. "While strong uterine contractions and tearing of the vaginal walls undoubtedly cause a degree of discomfort among women in labor, balding men would give anything to experience those sensations instead of lying awake and suffering all night as their hair thins." Kwan stated that men's remarkable ability to endure years of excruciating agony without the aid of epidurals or other powerful analgesics was a testament to the sex's unrivaled tolerance for pain."

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 06:35 PM

Tia....surely you dont think that ethnicity has any bearing on hiv figures......are you a closet racist?

Hiv figures are affected by SEXUAL behaviour. I think you will find that a very large percentage of those Afro/Americans and Latinos who have aquired the virus are male homosexuals.
Over 70% of new infections are amongst homosexuals,who comprise 2/3% of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 07:05 PM

Even the animals protect and nurture their young.

In the real world, Pharoah, a large number of animals EAT their young.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 07:45 PM

Danged, brucie... Say it ain't so... Pass the oxicoden...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 09:42 PM

Hmm. Well, I dunno.

I started losing my hair in my early twenties, and right now, Captain Jean-Luc Picard and I go to the same barber.

Can't say's I remember anything other than a mild bit of psychologal distress when, as a young man, I watched my hairline creep back. But now, old and wise, I can see the advantages. I don't have to spend any money on Brylcreem and the ladies think it's sexy. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 09:31 AM

"Tia....surely you dont think that ethnicity has any bearing on hiv figures......are you a closet racist?"

Ha. Went right over your head dinnit?

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 09:56 AM

Read all of my post T.....obviously you do not "do" irony.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 09:59 AM

Perhaps but what is more interesting to me is that going by Mucdat, there appear to me for example to be none with a generally socialist outlook who consider abortion wrong and none with a generally capitalist outlook who are pro abortion...

Being pro-choice is not the same as being pro-abortion. In a perfect world there would be no abortions. Last time I checked we do not live in a perfect world.

I have a real issue with the fact that many who most vigorously oppose abortion also oppose efforts to educate about sexuality and make birth control readily available.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 10:17 AM

Being pro-choice is not the same as being pro-abortion. In a perfect world there would be no abortions. Last time I checked we do not live in a perfect world.

I'm not concerned about the rights or wrongs of abortion in this thread.

What is puzzling (and disturbing) me is (going by Mudcat) the way people appear to line themselves up in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 10:45 AM

What is puzzling (and disturbing) me is (going by Mudcat) the way people appear to line themselves up in the US.

It is an extremely hot button issue for many people in the US. There are many people who choose candidates largely (perhaps solely) based on their stance on this one issue. I am not one of those people. I do tend to cast my votes for the opponents of strongly anti-abortion candidates but this is based on a much wider set of differences than just this one issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 10:46 AM

Yes, I agree about that Jon....its like what i said about Christianity being viewed as "right wing"
Or pro and anti homosexuality being used as political labels.
Same with immigration......very strange!

Divide and rule?

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 11:03 AM

Slightly off topic: wtf is it with all these ads about

Do you want to publish your Christian book?

The things are worse than crabs--they're all over everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 11:14 AM

Divide and rule?

I'm not sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 06:28 PM

Ake, it isn't just that simple. Sometimes the life of a mother is more important than the life of a deformed embryo or even one that hasn't been formed that far. Also, rape victims should not have to carry an unwanted child. The "killing babies" propaganda is just a bumper sticker and doesn't recognize the rights of a woman which are being eroded by politically inspired males who want to take those rights away regardless of their crocodile tears for the "unborn".
The anti-abortion crowd is highly politicized and governed by a religious fundamentalism that is cruel when they encounter pregnant women at abortion centers and the apex is the killing of those they don't agree with such as Tiller. In short, these anti-abortionists are home made terrorists and fostered by the Tea Party.

If you want to read about the bible as literature and scholarly study, I recommend Bart Ehrmann's books, the professor from the U. of North Carolina.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: John P
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 07:06 PM

Ake: "its like what i said about Christianity being viewed as "right wing" Or pro and anti homosexuality being used as political labels."

Christianity isn't generally viewed as right wing, but the right wing "Christians" are the ones trying to force their religion on everyone else, so they get talked about more. They are giving Christianity a bad name, unfortunately.

There is no pro-homosexuality. There is anti-homosexuality and there is pro-civil rights. They are not political labels -- they are stances on an important topic. Likewise, there is no pro-abortion or pro-life; there is anti-abortion and pro-civil rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 08:57 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 03:37 AM

I know it isn't a simple issue Frank, but at the heart of it is the case that if one creates life, one has a responsibility towards safeguarding that life.


When that natural law is overturned for no good reason other than convenience, then we have lost our humanity.

The nub of course is how we define convenience. How important it has become in this world of greed and selfishness.

Even as an atheist, I believe there is something "sacred" in the creation of life.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 08:44 AM

Of course, that depends on how one- with or without scientific evidence- chooses to define "life".

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 09:58 AM

Ake, what defines the creation of life is the problem. A mass of undeveloped mass of unformed nerves and/or a secretion of a sperm doesn't define life which begs the question here as to whose life is more important, the life of a mother or an undeveloped form.

Atheism and "sacred" don't go together in my opinion. The latter has a decidedly religious connotation.

Natural law is subject to interpretation. Some earlier people felt that slavery was a natural law. I see no natural law here by definition that would support your claim.


Gene selection is a natural law and determines which species survive and which don't.
A malformed fetus or undeveloped one indicates that genes are not operative in its favor.

The so-called "killing" of the unborn can't be proven since the argument about when life begins is not solved by rhetoric or even yet by science.

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 12:01 PM

"Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist"

....and the Democratic Party has been full of atheist fundamentalists.
So what???
Sounds like a double standard, to me!!!!!......unless you are a 'atheist fundamentalist'.....then you just root on your particular brand of brain lock!....but then its OK??
Jeez!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: John P
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 07:24 PM

GfS, if you try really hard you might understand that 1) Our Constitution denies our elected officials the right to impose their religion on the rest of us. The Tea Party doesn't understand this, either. And 2) there are no "atheist fundamentalists", in that no one is trying to force anyone else to be or act like an atheist.

Double standard? I know it's useless to ask this of you, but can you explain what you mean by that, in light of our Constitution? Can you offer any specifics of what an "atheist fundamentalists" does that makes him or her so? Do you understand the difference between forcing yourself on others and asking to be left alone? Try really hard, now . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 07:42 PM

Oh, really, GfinS...

Most of the liberals I know are people of "faith"... I've made no bones about my "faith" going back since coming here 10 years ago or so... Might of fact, of all the "liberals" I know I can't say that I know of any who are atheists???

So much for that little right-winged garbage... They think that if they can paint all "liberals" as heathens then they can take the moderate folks on "faith" into *their* flock of voters (pawns)...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Tea Party is Xtian Fundamentalist
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 08:35 PM

My wife has been a life-long church goer (Lutheran), although her views on religion are quite liberal. I am not a particularly religious person in the conventional sense. I have a lot of questions. But I go with my wife.

I was especially impressed when one of the pastors (two pastors, one a young woman and the other a large black man who wears a gold earring, sort of like a pirate), the young woman, held up a copy of the Bible and said, "This is not the Boy Scout Manual. Don't expect to find easy answers here. This book is full of questions. And that's what we're here to examine!"

Anything that resembles dogma or some kind of absolute is subject to very close and critical scrutiny.

One of the former pastors has been in the slammer on two occasions that I know of. The first time for joining a bunch of other people in standing on the tracks blocking "the White Train" that was carrying 150 nuclear warheads to the Trident nuclear submarine base in Bangor, Washington. My wife and I were there also, but we didn't didn't gat arrested. There were just too many of us. The second time was when he joined in a demonstration blocking a demolition crew from tearing down an older building near downtown Seattle. Many low-income people lived there, and the landlord evicted them because he wanted to sell the lot to a real estate company that intended to build a high-rise luxury condominium building on the site, and he obviously didn't give a damn if his former tenants had to go sleep in Dumpsters.

Also, Central Lutheran Church houses the national offices of the Lutheran Peace Fellowship. It also has a free lunch program, joining with five other churches in the area to be sure that a free and nutritious meal is available to low-income people in the area every day of the week. Another program is seeking out low-cost housing for low-income people.

Central and couple of other churches in the area have performed marriage ceremonies for committed same-sex couples—whether the state recognizes them or not.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the vast majority of the people in the congregations of these churches vote Democrat.

So much for simple stereotypes.

Don Firth

P. S.   And from having hung out in the parish hall after the Sunday services, I know that the vast majority of these people are not Tea Party types. They consider the after-service cup of coffee to be one of the Sacrements.