Music etiquette: the answer

Subject: Music etiquette: the answer
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 07:38 AM

There have been a lot of music etiquette threads, mostly relating to rude people at sessions. There is really only one answer. The majority of people who are rude have one of two reasons:

1. They don't realize they are being rude. 2. They are being selfish, and don't care that it is rude.

In both cases, the cure is communication. Tell them.

There is a woman at my work who often comes around listening and butting in on everybody's conversations, and bossing us around when she wants her own way (she has no authority). Most of the time, people just let her, so that she'll go away. But I've started another approach: When she offends, I just say, "Don't be rude". At the very least she leaves me alone for a while, and sometimes she is thoroughly horrified.

The #1 type of rude person is usually embarassed to realize how they've been acting. The #2 type is usually embarassed to have been caught.

You can't change people's behaviour if they don't know it is offensive.

P.

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From: greenword
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 10:48 AM

what happens to be rude to you may not be to me..hmmmm ever concider that?

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 11:11 AM

greenword, I think in most sessions (and presumably sing arounds etc) even if there is nobody in charge, an understanding develops between the regulars and most people are respectful of their fellow players and singers and follow whatever "rules" exist quite naturally. Occasionaly you will get somebody that genuinely does not know that what they are doing is upsetting others but most reasonable people will take a gentle hint if they are doing something like that.

Some things like talking over a singer are plain rude in everybodys book (at least I hope so) and unfortunately, there is a small minority of very rude people who have no conideration for others around. Unfortunately the 1 or 2 that do behave badly can and do ruin things for everyboy else.

Jon

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From: greenword
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 11:20 AM

if at a sing-around someones talking...then the song isn't working so find material that will work or put the guitar away..

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From: Margo
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 11:21 AM

Paul, I think you're right on. There can be no solution without discourse.

Margarita

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From: Barbara
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 11:31 AM

At first, greenword, I was afraid you were right about the talker I mentioned in the other thread. But now I don't think so. It is true that general inattention is an indicator that you need to change something.
And, I agree with Paul. For a lot of us, complaining is much easier than confronting the person. I find it scary, and need to remember to be both firm and kind. In either case the person called on the innapropriate behavior will need to do something to save face.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 11:58 AM

Sorry greenword, I disagree. Everybody should have their chance and to talk over a singer is rude period. If a song is not going to well, a singer is likely to sense that and might not do that one again and let's be fair in most cases (unless you are looking at something like Tamlin) even if a person is doing a song you don't like, it is only going to last for a couple of minutes.

I suppose that there are occasions when somebody might need to be told that a song is not appropriate for one reason or other and that could be done politely.

The only time I have had a word with somebody over a song was a long while ago when I was one of the organisers of a local folk club. One regular singer frequently used to do his "breast feeding" song (It had a chours Suck you bugger suck... cause if you blow, I'll break your bleedin kneck - and the poor old wet nurse end up blowing up like a ballon and floating off into the sky).

It was one of those songs that had half the audience in fits of laughter and the other half (my mother included) in fits of rage so I eventually asked him to conider leaving this song out suggesting that as he had so many that were amusing to everybody, it seemed silly to do one that was enraging some. The singer did agree with my suggestion and left that particular one out from then on.

Jon

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From: kendall morse (don't use)
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 12:54 PM

In my not so humble opinion, if someone does not like what is being sung, they should have the good grace to leave, and not expect others to cater to their taste.

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From: sophocleese
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 01:09 PM

Somebody singing a song you are not thrilled with, due to lyrics or style, is a time when you can get up quietly and go to another room to get yourself a drink or visit the loo. There's no reason to disturb those who are enjoying it. I like to leave during loud songs so I can hear it from wherever I am. Then I wait in the doorway until the song is over before heading back to my seat. Talking loudly while somebody is singing or playing seems an egotistical belief that my taste over-rules that of others who may differ.

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From: Chet W.
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 01:14 PM

At most singing session/jam sessions that I've attended, if somebody sings a song that is "not working", the only ones who would get upset or rude (like talking over the singer) are the ones that were rude when they came in the door. One song "not working" is not the end of the world, and should not be a tragedy for any session that's worthwhile anyway. If a song itself (and its singer) is rude or inappropriate, like the nursing song mentioned above, hopefully that can be taken care of without a confrontation, but that's different from one that you just might not happen to admire the quality of. Unless you're in charge or paid to hear a specified list of songs, it's none of your (or my) business just because somebody's song is "not working".

I am continually dismayed at how many people of all ages never learned any manners (today called social skills) at all, to the point that the whole idea of being tolerant or kind or respectful to others seems other-worldly to them.

Chet

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 02:57 PM

I agree, Chet. We were raised to be respectful at concerts, sings, plays, you name it. And, we were not allowed to get up and leave, unless it was during intermission. Even between songs was considered rude. The whole world needs a good dose of common courtesy; even the daily language has changed to reflect the not inconsiderable intolerance and indifference that humans seem to have for one another and other beings, these days. (I blame the old fast food commercials, "Have it your way", for starting it; catering to that "me first" attitude!**BIG GRIN**)

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 05:44 PM

I prefer the above phrase "common courtesy" to "manners," as a lot of that stuffy stuff is rightfully gone - women waiting for the car door to be opened (silly), while holding a swinging door for anybody behind it is common courtesy.

We have all sat through song circles where somebody's skill level is way below others'. At the very least, it is CC to sit quietly through. If by eye contact and gesture the person indicates they want others to join in, do so without hijacking the tempo (that is really annoying). If somebody does a song they only half know, suggest nicely they be prepared next time to teach it to everyone (I've been guilty of this, until the excellent "song circle etiquette" posting). Skipping people unless they pass is rude. Not tuning your instrument is rude. treating participants with disrespect is rude.

If a group has such a low skill level thet it makes you crazy, quit going and start your own.

When I'm feeling itchy I think of the times someone has made me feel itchy, and another much better than me gently helps them out.

MA

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From: bill\sables
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 05:57 PM

I remember the opening night of the Shotley Bridge folk club in Co Durham in 1965 I was organiser and we had a guest singer playing when a few local yobo's, who had come into the club because it was their local, insisted on talking during the songs, I went over to them and asked them not to talk during songs at which point I was asked to "Go outside and sort it out there" There were about five of them so they left the room and I followed thinking what the hell am I going to do now, but at the door they looked over my head and calmed down that was when I looked behind to find that I had been followed out by about seven six foot tall bearded Morris men who had noticed what was happening. We then all reasoned with the locals explaining that others wanted to hear the songs and that they were disturbing them In the end the locals begged to be let back in and every week after that if anyone talked during songs it was them who hushed the talkers up and they became valuable club members. It seemed that they just didn't know that folk audiences listened to the words. Cheers Bill

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 08:42 PM

the durn thing is....'rude' and 'gauche' and such are not black & white, on or off issues...there are infinite shades of grey as to what is offensive or thoughtless..we are SUCH a complex species, and we are simply NOT offended and upset by exactly the same things. Why maybe we need a thread exploring 'exactly' what is proper in all cases..(NO, NO!!JUST KIDDING!!!!)

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 10:30 PM

I have looked for the reference on "song circle etiquette" since I would love to read it. Can't find it. Can anyone point me to the thread where it is at.

JAB

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From:
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 09:20 AM

Ah, my dear MAG, but the word "courtesy" refers back to how one was supposed to behave in court, as in a court of royalty. Do we really want to go that far? Might not be bad though, but I'm not wearing a powdered wig or tights!

Chet

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From: Buddy
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 11:33 AM

Anyone ever tells me not to be rude, I'd punch'em in the lip.

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From: Chet W.
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 04:39 PM

You know the truly odd thing (which, as a teacher, I see quite a bit of) is that not only does the prospect of displaying manners or courtesy or social skills seem like an idea from Pluto to a lot of people, a lot of them seem to feel that it's an obligation to be rude, violent, or otherwise disruptive at every opportunity. Look at that glorious Woodstock thing past. The "had" to trash the place because they were being gouged for beverages. Did no one have a clue that they were attending an ultra-commercialized non-event with only their money and none of their interests in mind? And every time there's some big disruptive event, natural or otherwise, as soon as the ground quits shaking there are people standing in line either for their looting opportunity or to price-gouge helpless victims. It happens everytime we have a hurricane in South Carolina; ice, $8/bag, water, $5/gallon, a $500 generator for $1500. I don't know, even after much study and intense thought, I can't figure what could have changed in a generation or two that makes antisocial behavior the friggin' NORM. Some places people gather round to cheer on violence, even very very brutal violence. A chance to cheat or steal?; Can't let that go by. Where's the map; I want a house without even a road going by.

After a trying day, Chet

Subject: RE: Music etiquette: the answer
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 06:57 PM

Etiquette is musical sensitivy. Needs to be acquirec. When it's not there, it's a lost cause. Solution? 1. Small groups of people that are comfortable and know one another musically. (Maybe have met together more than once). 2. Folkies who have been trained to play and jam together like jazz musicians. 3. Singarounds which in my view are not jam session but mini-concerts.

There is a crying need for classes or training in ensemble playing in all kinds of music.

Frank Hamilton