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John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics

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Dave the Gnome 07 Sep 11 - 02:46 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Sep 11 - 02:38 PM
Bonzo3legs 07 Sep 11 - 03:49 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Sep 11 - 06:24 PM
Bonzo3legs 06 Sep 11 - 04:27 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Sep 11 - 03:38 PM
GUEST,Jon 06 Sep 11 - 03:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Sep 11 - 03:26 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Sep 11 - 03:20 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Sep 11 - 03:11 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Sep 11 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,pete 06 Sep 11 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,GUEST, Ian 06 Sep 11 - 12:36 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Sep 11 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,Jon 06 Sep 11 - 08:02 AM
mikesamwild 06 Sep 11 - 07:27 AM
GUEST 06 Sep 11 - 06:45 AM
GUEST,matt milton 06 Sep 11 - 06:28 AM
theleveller 06 Sep 11 - 03:13 AM
Bonzo3legs 05 Sep 11 - 04:45 PM
GUEST,Dazbo at work 05 Sep 11 - 10:51 AM
theleveller 05 Sep 11 - 08:10 AM
Folkiedave 05 Sep 11 - 07:50 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 05 Sep 11 - 05:45 AM
Folkiedave 05 Sep 11 - 04:47 AM
Folkiedave 05 Sep 11 - 04:47 AM
Folkiedave 05 Sep 11 - 04:45 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 05 Sep 11 - 03:15 AM
Bonzo3legs 05 Sep 11 - 02:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Sep 11 - 01:04 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 04 Sep 11 - 04:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Sep 11 - 10:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Sep 11 - 10:11 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 31 Aug 11 - 04:00 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 31 Aug 11 - 02:17 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 30 Aug 11 - 07:24 PM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 30 Aug 11 - 06:11 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 30 Aug 11 - 01:43 PM
Howard Jones 30 Aug 11 - 01:21 PM
BTNG 30 Aug 11 - 11:44 AM
Les in Chorlton 30 Aug 11 - 11:40 AM
Howard Jones 30 Aug 11 - 06:30 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 30 Aug 11 - 05:17 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 30 Aug 11 - 05:07 AM
Bonzo3legs 30 Aug 11 - 04:41 AM
Howard Jones 30 Aug 11 - 04:09 AM
Bonzo3legs 29 Aug 11 - 06:49 AM
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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 02:46 PM

BTW - Not done a count up because I am not that anal but I reckon trad folk songs feature more than contemporary one. As long as no-one tries to redfine folk as anything not by a horse of course...

:D


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 02:38 PM

As if by magic or as if someone at Time Out reads the Mudcat...

100 songs that changed history

Nice to see some traditional songs in there and some up to the minute ones. Along with classics, old and new and, of course, David Hasselhoff. Biggest disappointment is that William Shatner has not been picked...

:D tG


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 03:49 AM

Oddly enough the Spanish equivalent of the NHS is very good indeed. No 12 to a ward for a start, and no fat slothful under qualified nurses.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 06:24 PM

Oh, I knew you'd come back with the 'medical insurance' bit, Bonzo, because you are so very much an 'I'm alright Jack' kind of person with no sympathy for anyone who has not achieved what you have in life.

Billy Bragg, for your information, is one of the few people who stood up to Rupert Murdoch and won. He and he alone took Myspace to Court and won the right for musicians to stay in control of their music on Myspace.

As for the NHS, Bonzo...I think it will be the downfall of this government if they dare to try and sell control of it abroad.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 04:27 PM

But Lizzy we have medical insurance, the NHS will need more than Billy Bragg to prop it up!!!!!


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 03:38 PM

Ooooh - Allowed to accompany I think. I wouldn't like them to be accused of being silent :-)


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 03:35 PM

OK Dave, I'll announce it when I go to the tune session on Sunday.

Should singing the words apply to everyone wishing to participate or should those who don't sing be allowed to accompany?


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 03:26 PM

In fact, I think I have been convinced. The more political songs the better. I guess we should give room to ALL political songs though.

How about a rousing chorus of Horst Wessel followed by Es zittern die morschen Knochen and finishing with Deutschland erwache? After all, they are just as political, if not more so, than any mentioned so far.

Hopefuly this is where Goodwins Law kicks in...

:D tG


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 03:20 PM

And hey, it seems my 'ranting' at least got you in here...

Think on that a while, eh....   ;0)

Oh and think on this too....

This evening on BBC Radio Devon it was announced that over the past few years there have been 3 Food Banks in Devon, feeding around 500 people or so. This has now increased to 8 Food Banks which are feeding.....6,000 people.

Yes...SIX THOUSAND PEOPLE!!   Shall I put *****'s around that too???

**SIX THOUSAND PEOPLE** in Devon ALONE, who are now needing to be fed by charities because they can no longer afford to feed themselves! They are getting by due to borrowing off their extended families where they can...and some cannot survive when they start a new job, because their measly benefit is stopped immediately, yet they do not get paid for FOUR weeks, so they cannot afford food...

This will get worse...then worse again and again and again.

This is no ordinary Recession, it never was. It is the collapse of the Western World as we know it, Jim...and there has NEVER been a time when a drum has been needed to be banged louder than ever before......

You have the drum....

Start The Rhythm going.......


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 03:11 PM

"Lizzie, your harangues are divisive – I can't believe that you further any of the causes you espouse with your woolly streams of consciousness. Grow yourself a pair of humilities - just do that clicky thing on the avaaz website and share it on fb like the rest of us do, and spare us your self righteousness."


Check out 'Support Chief Raoni' on Facebook......Were you there on August 22nd bellowing for Belo Monte?

I've have always written with Capital letters all over the place. It does not always mean I am shouting, simply the way I write, for I do not, and will not, write in the way others tell me to.

I'm merely stating that right now the planet is in one HELL of a mess (stick your earphones on for that bit) and quite frankly we're all in the together....

I've probably signed more petitions than you've hit things, Pete..phoned up more places, ranted, raged and raved to various embassies, kicked David Cameron's arse and now William Hague's too over on Facebook, to the point where soon 'the knock on the door' may shortly be approaching....

There is one man, one quote, that is embedded in my mind....and which makes more sense with each and every passing day...

>>>"History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people."
Martin Luther King, Jr." <<<<


Obviously you're very content to be part of The Silence.

I'm not.

This is YOUR world, that of your children and grandchildren too..and if you don't start making more noise than you have ever made in your life, don't start sharing out that noise with so many young people who come to watch you, then you will be letting future generations down, as will so many others......but, that is your choice entirely.


"What will I think of me the day that I die?" - Julian Lennon

Oh, and don't let it go to your head, this thread, that is, for I rant and rage ALL OVER THE PLACE..and I should think Sting is getting pretty fed up with me using his Facebook page as well, which reminds me, I must go in there again tonight and put Chief Raoni's page on his...and no, I did not make that page, but I sure as hell contribute to it one helluva lot..and one helluva lot of folks joined in the International Protest Day over the Belo Monte Dam all over the world a few days back...

But hey, you carry on beating your drum in your own way.

I march to the tune of a different drum....


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 02:55 PM

Is that Pete Flood by any chance? Only out of interest. Thanks for dropping in and giving us at least one member of the band's view anyway. I am in agreement with the subtle change idea. No-one ever achieved anything major by ranting and raving or, in my opionion, by singing!

There are people who shout, whinge and moan and people who get things done. More often than not the two are completely different animals. I, like many others, find that the more that people tell me what I should be doing, the less I will take notice of them. I am very open to reason and have, even here on Mudcat, had my mind changed by logical argument. Pity that not everyone can understand that subtlety is usualy more effective than a big hammer :-)

Cheers

DtG

PS - Favourite Bellowhead TV moment, out of interest, was the Christmas or New Year show or some such where the Rapper team danced to the instrumental bit in Copshawholme Fair. I suspect it did more to expose people to tradition and culture than any number of Manchester Ranblers.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,pete
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 02:14 PM

Wow – what a litany of woes, I'd no idea that we were responsible for all that! Although I did catch Benji out fracking behind the tour bus the other night. Sorry everyone for single-handedly causing the downfall of mankind…

The thing about somewhat-aggressive, rambling political rants such as Lizzie's above is that I always suspect that they say way more about the ranter than about the state of the world. The fact that the point, if you can call it one, is hammered out in THE most HECTORING terms POSSIBLE WITH arbitrary capitaliSATION all over the PLACE, is a clue. The world is full of people shouting, and it's very easy and convenient to hide plain old boring self-obsession and self-interest behind a political agenda. And the more of a litany of doom you make it, the more effective you will be at bullying anyone with a conscience into listening to your voice. Megalomania's a pretty dodgy foundation for positive change in the world, I'd say.

Lizzie, your harangues are divisive – I can't believe that you further any of the causes you espouse with your woolly streams of consciousness. Grow yourself a pair of humilities - just do that clicky thing on the avaaz website and share it on fb like the rest of us do, and spare us your self righteousness.

Music, on the other hand, is very good at bringing people together. And it's often at its best when that's all we ask of it, particularly when so much else in the world casts us asunder. Make it a matter of, like, your opinion maan, and we're back dividing people. Faced with differences of opinion, I'd rather find common ground than do battle – I think you stand more chance of change that way. Subtle change, yes, but vital and precious nonetheless.

And on one level at least this argument is utterly bizarre – that music, which many believe was born out of the necessity for a form of emotionally potent non-verbal communication, should be derided for not containing the right words – is it only me that finds this entire premise monumentally stupid?

As for bellowhead – we probably could be more political, within our (politically-inspired) remit. But we're a collective, so we'll have to vote on that and get back to you.

We probably could sing more political songs, beyond the ones we sing that Lizzie doesn't know about because she doesn't like our music.

And we probably could support more causes, and while I'm on the subject, get involved in the Water Aid Big National Ceilidh on Oct 15th – it'll be a great deal more fun than being shouted at by Lizzie Cornish ☺


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,GUEST, Ian
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 12:36 PM

Undoubtedly, John Tams is a very caring soul, and wears his politics on his sleeve. In recent times though, he's become more of a surreal comedian than a didactic preacher. More Eric Morecambe than Eric Blair.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 08:18 AM

Bonzo, Billy Bragg's over on his Facebook page getting a lot of folks to sign up to saving the NHS this morning....

And you are doing........??????????   


matt.....if you truly think that Show of Hands, John Tams, Home Service et al are not making a difference, then I truly despair.

Tell you what, go to a Show of Hands gig and watch the reaction of the audiences, look at the age range (it's extensive these days)

Take a look at the world right now, what is happening around us at increasing speed...Watch the new Hopi message out on Youtube...learn that there is much happening around us that we are almost too late to change, so deep is the damage now...but we can STILL affect how badly it affects us as a species, IF we act promptly.

I'm talking about the world being in dire straits right now, not in 10,50,100 years time, but right now, this moment, as we are all living and breathing...

Whilst my trees here in Torquay are being over double in gale force winds, out in Texas they have almost given up trying to control the out of control fires that are decimating so much of the State...In China droughts abound, caused, amongst other things, by damming so many rivers...as is now happening in The Amazon....Brazil is weakening the protection of the Amazon Rainforest, about to build 60 more dams,following Belo Monte. Ecuador is holding the world to ransom, about to let Shell decimate THEIR Rainforest, unless they receive billions of pounds....

We are about to stand idly by and watch the NHS be torn apart, whilst we have money oozing out of our pockets to decimate Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq....

China is awakening and encouraging more and more countries to build more and more mega-dams...keeping an eye on the world's water supplies..demanding more and more energy....

The BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India and China) countries are rising fast...and the West is sinking faster...

ALL it will take is mortgage interest to go up and thousands, tens of thousands will lose their homes, with nowhere to go, for there is NO spare council housing, nowhere to put people....

It will be hard.
It will be chaotic.
It will be something that we have never lived through before.....


But hey, best to keep singing about Larks and Hedgerows, no matter that The Hedgerows, along with The Rainforests, are being decimated as never before, threatening all the wildlife which depend on them so....

Meanwhile, back at the ranch of the Rich and Rotten to the Core, they mumble about Criminality and The Criminal Underclass, refusing to acknowlege that our prisons are filled with so many broken souls, who've had learning difficulties all life-long with no-one willing to help them.....

"Every 20 minutes a child is diagnosed with Autism' is all over the United States, on billboards....It is the same over here, but without those billboards....

So many children with autism who are left to struggle, to grow up in fear and anger, lost and utterly terrified, whilst only able to express their terror and confusion through anger and aggression, for which they are locked up....

And meanwhile The Rich and The Rotten sniff at 'this part of society' demeaning them, encouraging others to hate them....when often, REAL geniuses lie within our prison cells, broken and battered by a System that churns out Broken Souls with not an ounce of guilt.....

Yeah, to hell with protest songs.....You're right...let's all continue to be Bloody Apathetic and dance to our merry tunes..for hell, WE have a right to happiness, yes?????????

And it couldn't POSSIBLY be OUR Apathy that has led us to this situation in the first place, could it?   


I was raised on politiical songs, they were once all around us. Today's generation get mush on their radios....total mush......and so, we now have a Mushy World....

Well, fuck that for a Game of Caring Humanity!!


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 08:02 AM

What is the function of folk in today's situation?

I don't see why it should have to have one singular function.

For my part, mostly, I'd rather it being about a tiny part of keeping traditional music alive through participation and, yes, having fun at the same time.

As for it serving a political purpose, I'm afraid I find a folk club of people nodding their heads wisely to "meaningful" songs often appears to serve the function of admiring and applauding some "collective wisdom" rather better than it does in generating political change.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: mikesamwild
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 07:27 AM

I was going through an old folk folder fro some songs from the 70s and found a cutting from MorningStar Sat Dec 13 1975. by Bob Campbell and Leon Rosselson, 'Why folk has lost its roots among people'. He tackled social issues both head on and obliquely . He said he wasn't getting bookings from traditional clubs who wanted pastoral songs and jolly choruse who were escapists and isolated from the modern community. Since 1975 we have seen some 'protest' singers but it feels like we are back to the 'Imagined Village' of Georgina Boyes' book..

I'd be interested in what Leon might think about this subject today!
Mind , Peter Bellamy wasn't getting too many bookings either as I remember.

maybe the thread on Steamfolk is relevant.

What is the function of folk in today's situation?


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 06:45 AM

"If you don't like the ones I suggested, then pick a method of political activity that you think DOES work then - it's all the same to me."

Er....I already did...and I explained why too. Music."

Blimey, when I asked that question it never occurred to me that you might actually think that music is a genuiinely more effective tool than voting, money, lobbying, advertising campaigns, strikes, rallies, speeches, touring by politicians, ownership of newspapers etc etc

So, Lizzie, you must think politicians are all pretty stupid for not having hired a folk act.

If there was any truth at all in what you are saying, shouldn't John Tams, Show of Hands and perhaps even Bellowhead have taken over the world by now?


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 06:28 AM

"If you don't like the ones I suggested, then pick a method of political activity that you think DOES work then - it's all the same to me."

Er....I already did...and I explained why too. Music.   


"You've a real talent for focusing on the particulars in order to conveniently ignore an overall point, Lizzie."

"I attended to your point quite distinctly, matt."

Sorry Lizzie, but you did not and you still haven't. It's a simple point: If missionary work/converting/didacticism/educating is the end goal (which is what you are saying in suggesting Bellowhead aren't as good because they are not as "political", in that narrow unambiguous sloganeering way) then, by your own logic, all these musicians should be exploiting the MOST POPULIST art forms they can, not the LEAST.

You are saying that what makes one song better than another is its topicality and its power to inform. I'm saying that if that's what you want, then you're backing a loser with Show Of Hands, because they play folk music, which 99% of the world is uninterested in.

By your own logic, the best models for political song would be stuff like "Another Day in Paradise" by Phil Collins, or "We Are The World". It doesn't matter that they are rubbish; they fit your bill.

You don't seem to understand that the logic of prizing "political content" makes the whole thing results-oriented. If unambiguous topicality is makes a song better than another, it is because it is more likely to appeal to a broader listenership. But if appealing to a broader listenership is the name of the game, it is you who hasn't done the "market research".

"Not my fault if you .... don't like what I said above about the power which music has, above all else, to connect. :0)"

You put that in a rather sneaky way. You're implying I don't "like" the idea that music has the power to connect. That music has the power to connect is a self-evident fact that is so obvious it barely needs stating: it's way beyond being something that anyone could like or dislike.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 03:13 AM

Hey Bozo, Billy says 'Thanks'.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 04:45 PM

I have never and will never see Billy Bwagg.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 10:51 AM

God save us from political "singers" - If I want to be politicized I'll go to a party conference - if I want fun I'll go to a bellowhead concert. I've seen Billy Bragg, Home Service and Roy Bailey this year and to be honest would rather have been dancing my feet off in a ceilidh.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 08:10 AM

Those interested in political song may enjoy the superb annual Raise Your Banners event in November. John Tams and Barry Coope will be performing, along with other politically-enlightened performers including Roy Bailey, the excellent Ewan McLennan, and Justin Sullivan of New Model Army.

Raise Your Banners


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 07:50 AM

Mine was a strictly factual post about the history of the Ramblers Association. Since you suggested people might not know about it then I posted some of it and in relation to the Mass Trespass.

As for not learning "anything much" at a Bellowhead Concert - there are none so deaf as those who don't listen.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 05:45 AM

I also said this:

"...and by the end of the lesson they'd know where their Right to Roam came from. They'd have learnt all about Kinder Scout and the hundreds of people who came together in Mass Trespass, fighting for that very Right to Roam, bringing about social change for hundreds of thousands of people!

He'd probably even have them all signed up to The Ramblers Association in the blink of an eye and the kids would call their own walking group The Tamblers, meeting up with Mr. Tams at weekends to go rambling together, both verbally, musically and on foot..."


...as well as this, which you picked up on:

"I think many young people, and older ones too, would have no clue about how or why The Ramblers Association was started."


What I did NOT say was that The Ramblers Association was started because of Kinder Scout. Kinder Scout did however, bring in massive public attention to the cause and many folks took up the banner and helped to push forward the Right to Roam and our National Parks, which may well NOT have happened had the Kinder Scout Trespass not taken place.

I have never been informed of anything much at a Bellowhead concert...I have however, come away ALWAYS the wiser after listening to John Tams.

And I believe this is 102

:0)


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 04:47 AM

And i believe that was 100.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 04:47 AM

Songs which tell of the politics of the past are as important as those which speak of the politics of the present

Such as the ones that Bellowhead sing? Or don't songs about the social conditions of the past count?


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 04:45 AM

At the risk of some thread drift and to make sure there is no confusion:

I think many young people, and older ones too, would have no clue about how or why The Ramblers Association was started.

The Mass Trespass of 1932 took place before the Ramblers Association was formed in 1935. It was organised by the Lancashire Branch of British Workers Sports Federation a communist organisation founded in London in 1928. The organiser of the action was Benny Rothman who of course subsequently went to prison. Jimmy Miller as he was at that time. was the organisation's press officer. He was 17 years of age at the time.

The Ramblers Association was the result of an number of rambling federations coming together in 1931 under the name "National Council of Ramblers Federations", but they OPPOSED the tactics of the trespassers and REFUSED TO ENDORSE the action.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 03:15 AM

Then you miss out on much wisdom, Bonzo....

The Manchester Rambler, to this day, teaches and illustrates the past, particularly when it is in the hands of a natural teacher such as John Tams, who goes out of his way to inform his audience about his songs.

I think many young people, and older ones too, would have no clue about how or why The Ramblers Association was started. They simply accept that they are free to walk in so many places, giving no thought to the people who fought for the Right To Roam.

Songs which tell of the politics of the past are as important as those which speak of the politics of the present for they plant seeds in the minds of many, as do songs which get folks to consider whether they are part of the problem and to focus on the fact that we are all in this together and together we the power to change so many things.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 02:54 AM

I'm pleased that I can fast forward to the next music track when listening to the Home Service gig at the Half Moon on 21/07/11 - in fact better still, I'll delete all the banter from my Sansa Clip flac player!!!!!


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 01:04 PM

Good lad John. Nice to see people that some are well informed. I supposed I should have known he would give the correct story if I could have been bothered to follow internet links. I really would rather rely on personal experience though and seeing as I was aware of the history of the Manchester Rambler anyway I don't think listening to JT perform it on YouTube, rather than live like the last time I saw him, would change my opinion of either him of the song :-)

Did anyone state the song came first btw? Or say that anyone did? I am pretty sure I didn't do either. I thought we were discussing whether Bellowhead should make a political stance and whether, if they did, it would make any difference to the socio-political climate. I think that politics in folk song is interesting but, as far as social reform is concerned, a waste of time. It will not make a ha'purth of difference and the Manchester Rambler was a good way to illustrate the fact that the song was written about the event rather than influencing anyone or anything.


But then again, what do I know...

:D tG


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 04:33 AM

"I am pretty sure that the last time I was at the start of the trespass (Maybe about 2 months ago) the plaque says that the event occured in April 1932, before Mr McColls writing of the Manchester rambler - I could be wrong (and often am!) but I am pretty sure that the event led to the song and not the other way round. "


Yes, John Tams states that in the video before he starts to sing.

I did not state the song came first.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 10:25 AM

Me - Being kissed by the Wain Stones (for those with facebook access)

:D


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 10:11 AM

I am pretty sure that the last time I was at the start of the trespass (Maybe about 2 months ago) the plaque says that the event occured in April 1932, before Mr McColls writing of the Manchester rambler - I could be wrong (and often am!) but I am pretty sure that the event led to the song and not the other way round. Apologies in advance if I am wrong but having started my 40+ year fascination with rambling and the countryside in the very footsteps of mass trespass I do like to make sure these things are correct. I wonder somethimes whether people get the cause and effect mixed up - Do folk singers cause or simply report political events? I suspect the latter but if they make someone think for themselves I suppose they may be helping in some way. As long as they are making them think the right and just left wing thoughts:-)

Out of interest I was on the Pennine Way just under 2 weeks ago doing the short stretch from the Snake to Bleaklow head and and back and I realised I had never purposely visited the Wain Stones - So I did! Fantastic bit of natural sculpture. I said never purposely visited because I think I may have visited by accident when lost in about 3' of snow once but the only thing I remember about the trip from Glossop to the Snake Inn was taking about an hour to thaw out in front of the log fire. And having to have a an extra few pints while we waited for a taxi to come and take us back. Discretion is the better part of valour after all...

:D tG


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 04:00 AM

:0) x


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 02:17 AM

You're welcome, Lizzie. Excellent return of serve.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 07:24 PM

Oh no, absolutely wrong there.

They wouldn't have to bunk off, Chris, for Mr. Tams would throw open the classroom doors, get them all sitting outside in the warm, golden sunshine, shoes off, blazers off, ties undone, relaxed and happy, whilst he picked up his guitar to weave them tales of Magical Geography and Social Change with the song of The Manchester Rambler

...and by the end of the lesson they'd know where their Right to Roam came from. They'd have learnt all about Kinder Scout and the hundreds of people who came together in Mass Trespass, fighting for that very Right to Roam, bringing about social change for hundreds of thousands of people!

He'd probably even have them all signed up to The Ramblers Association in the blink of an eye and the kids would call their own walking group The Tamblers, meeting up with Mr. Tams at weekends to go rambling together, both verbally, musically and on foot...

I said over and over, years back, that John Tams is a natural teacher and I abide by that still to this day.

Perfick Post, Chris. Thank you! ;0)


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 06:11 PM

ý'So what's the next lesson, Darren?'
'Geography and Social Change'.
'Who's that with then?'
'Mr Tams.'
(Pause): 'Let's bunk off.'


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 01:43 PM

Thank you, Howard. Apology accepted, completely. x


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 01:21 PM

I wasn't aware I was being sarcastic.

Lizzie, in her usual exuberant style, has been enthusiastically urging Bellowhead, and indeed any musicians who can command an audience, to use that position to "spread the message". I used that to make a point about which particular message might be spread, but in doing so made an assumption about her point of view which was not justified. She quite rightly pulled me up and I immediately apologised. I know that's unusual behaviour on Mudcat but that doesn't make it sarcastic.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: BTNG
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 11:44 AM

It occurred to me, the other day, that we just might be giving Bellowhead more notice than they really deserve.


...oh and HJ, sarcasm is the lowest form of "wit" but I'm sure you know that already.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 11:40 AM

Subtle, HJ, subtle, a rare thing here

L in C#


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 06:30 AM

My apologies, Lizzie, you're quite right, I made assumptions there I shouldn't have done. I made the mistake of using your vociferous encouragement of musicians to express political opinions to make a general point. That was wrong of me.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 05:17 AM

And I tell you what, Vin Garbutt writes songs that get people thinking and talking! And THAT is a great thing!

Part of the reason the world is in such a mess right now is due to apathy and to the masses being deliberatlely, imo, dumbed down. Nearly all music that has a strong message in it, be it political or environmental, is no longer heard in the mainstream media.

Some of the most powerful political songwriters in the world are to be found within the Folk World, both ours and others right around the planet.

For way too long The Proles (for that is what so many people now have chosen to become) have been 'entertained' with woollwoossssss music ensuring they don't think, don't question, don't talk and don't get angry or politically active...

And whilst all that has been happening, not just in the music, but in so many other things too, those with very dodgy agendas have crept in and done what they wanted with the general population and the planet...

If you listen to the American Indian Chiefs, who KNOW what they are talking about, this planet is in dire trouble...politics aside we are in deep shite now...and unless, **unless** we start opening as many eyes as we can things will be getting FAR worse VERY fast...


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 05:07 AM

"People like Lizzie who are so keen to see folk musicians expressing political views are less happy when those views don't agree with their own."

Pardon?   I'm not sure who you're lumping me in with here with your 'people like Lizzie' statement. Perhaps you'd care to elaborate?

"Just look at the reaction to Vin Garbutt's anti-abortion songs.."

I've never given any reaction to Vin's song. I also think it's quite shocking how he was treated, because of his views on abortion.

Please, do not assume my views on anything or lead others to assume on my behalf.

I have never 'condemned' anyone for their political songs. I merely write about the ones which move me to write.

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 04:41 AM

"However I think Matt is mistaken in his assumptions that people who like his kind of music "generally do" share his political opinions."

Absolutely right, but I played Alright Jack very loud in my car this morning because it sounds great!!!!


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 04:09 AM

People like Lizzie who are so keen to see folk musicians expressing political views are less happy when those views don't agree with their own. Just look at the reaction to Vin Garbutt's anti-abortion songs or even Peter Bellamy's Kipling interpretations (these seem to be better accepted nowadays, but at the time Kipling was considered a racist imperialist and Bellamy was widely criticised).

I agree with Matt that many "political" songs aren't actually all that political. He mentioned "Alright Jack", but even for example Ed Pickford's "The Workers' Song", which is much sharper and to the point, is nevertheless a description of how the world works, under pretty much any political system or regime. That's not politics, it's observation - politics is what you then do about it.

However I think Matt is mistaken in his assumptions that people who like his kind of music "generally do" share his political opinions. It's certainly safe to express Left-ish views on the folk scene, and the hostile and sometimes vindictive reaction to other views probably discourages all but a few from using folk music to express those views. This leads to a cosy self-perpetuating world when only "acceptable" political views can be expressed. That doesn't mean that everyone on the folk scene shares the same views.


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 06:49 AM

Just listened to Home Service at the Half Moon Putney on 3 July 2011 - just burnt the music to CD which was superb.

They even recreate poor old Howard Evans's bum notes!!!

Politics.......what politics????????


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 07:20 AM

I am surprised that no-one has mentioned Bellowhead's interpretations of A begging I will go or Cholera Camp - May have been written a long time ago but still a powerful inditement against societies view of beggers and soldiering. Still, I suppose the truth shouldn't stand in the way of a good headline :-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 05:17 AM

The good thing about Adobe Audition is that you can cut out the political banter and just leave the Home Service!!!


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Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 05:15 AM

I'm sorry you found the Titanic video sick Lizzie - I was hoping it would make the point that it's not always nice to be reminded what a state we are in!

I agree though that music can be powerful. I'm not a massive fan of Arrogance Ignorance and Greed (the song I mean) - I much prefer Steve Tilston's Pretty Penny, or for something much older, Alex Glasgow's Turning the Clock Back

Anyway, apologies for any offence caused. BTW I think you are being given some good advice to channel your energies into songwriting...


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