BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions

Subject: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 09:11 AM

Dale Farm in Essex, UK., is a community established by travellers some years ago, on land which they legally own.

Basildon Council has served eviction notices to 90 families living on the farm w.e.f 31st August. As a response, supporters of the travellers have established what they call Camp Constant, with the aim of preventing the evictions from being carried out.

Basildon Council's actions are inhumane and pointless. Like all other evicted travellers, they have nowhere else to go, and they will be forcibly ejected from the site while council bulldozers smash up all that they have worked so hard for for so long.

You can read more here and there is also a brief BBC News report .

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 09:39 AM

Did they obtain planning permission for dwellings on the land they bought? On what grounds are they being evicted?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 09:48 AM

According to the local council, although the travellers own the land, only half the families have installed homes legally - the remainder have had planning permission refused because their part of the land is apparently classed as "green belt". (I don't know the ins-and-outs of this - it's only what I've read in today's papers and on the net).

The legal dispute with the local council has been going on for some months.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Musket
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 10:47 AM

I own some land surrounding my home that is classed as green belt. I applied for planning permission to sell it on and was refused.

if I had gone ahead anyway, I doubt I would be in the right and the people living in the houses would be evicted as the properties were pulled down.

Don't wish to sound thick here, but what is the difference? If there is a problem with the law, there are ways in a democracy to get the law changed.

Ironically, their saviour may well be the Prime Minister. Cameron has pledged to remove red tape and make it easier to get planning permission, removing many of the objections a council can make. Funny that by doing so, he may make new friends amongst people who don't pay taxes, think they are above the law, run their businesses without a care for others, lay waste to everything they come across... Oh, silly me... That's why he proposed the new planning laws..... Diddycoys and so called new age travellers fit the criteria for his mates.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: open mike
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 11:28 AM

Perhaps there is a statute that allows non-permanent homes (such as mobile homes, motor homes, caravans) on a different permit basis than "stick built" homes. Here that is the case...if a building is smaller than a certain size or if it is portable in some way it need not comply with all the planning and zoning laws. Having land and living on it are different things, unfortunately. Perhaps the person who sold them that land did them a dis-service, and may have known the
green belt status.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: open mike
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 12:06 PM

I was not familiar with the area, so looked to see where this is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basildon this is in Essex county, SE England.

here is another article http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/aug/26/dale-farm-travellers-prepare-eviction

here is a link to the local radio statio--perhaps some info will be found here http://www.gateway978.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 12:37 PM

Yes it's on green belt, but it's actually built on the site of a former scrap yard, and probably looks a lot more in keeping with the local environment than the scrapyard did.

Why didn't the travellers apply for planning permission? Because the vast majority of planning applications from travellers are turned down.

The point is that these people are being turned off their site for no reason other than a bureaucratic nicety. I've only seen Dale Farm on tv, but it looks extremely clean and well laid out and organised. It might have broken the letter of the green belt regulations, but it certainly hasn't breached their spirit.

But those who snigger and sneer at diddycoys might pause to wonder where they are supposed to go once they've been evicted. What tiny corner of this splendid isle of ours is left where they can set up home without offending the planning laws and local opinion? Before you try and answer that one, please remember that official traveller sites are already woefully under-resourced and cannot accommodate anything like the numbers of families who need them.

"The hard eyed men who guard the roads
They bid us choose our way.
And yet they will not let us go.
Nor will they let us stay." Ewan MacColl.

Someone said to me the other night, travellerphobia is about the last form of racism that is still socially acceptable. One day we'll kill that off too.

And before I forget, alterations to the planning regulations will not make it easier for travellers to gain planning permission. It will simply make it easier for councils to reject them, and for magistrates to evict them.

One final point. The landlord of the pub at the back of me put up some jumberellas a couple of years ago. "you can't do that", objected the local residents. "You should have sought planning permission first. Moreover they will exacerbate problems with the pub about which we are already complaining."

The brewery sought retrospective planning permission for the jumberellas and got it, despite local opposition.

Seems to me there's one law for the rich and powerful, and another for the dispossessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 12:53 PM

my sympathy is with the travellers

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 01:06 PM

Our UK planning permission system is based in the nature of use. Change from scrapyard to residential requires planning permission. It is a different use. Residential is residential even if it is in a caravan.

The Green belt was set up to prevent urban sprawl. Those in less crowded countries can have little perception on how that really matters in the UK. If you drove at the legal speed limit (it would have to be at about 3 am) round the south circular and north circular back to where you started it would take over 2 hours and you would be in an urban setting all the way - in some parts quite well into an urban setting.

It was to protect the environment, and the proposed conservative relaxations to let profiteers and land speculators turn a faster buck are quite villanous - but the present system is not honestly run and does discriminate against travellers.

Councils are supposed to provide traveller sites but they do not. Wtat there is is insufficient, those there are are often unsavoury. What is the traveller to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 01:39 PM

I am with the travellers. The display of open and revolting racism I see earlier in this thread is disgraceful.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 02:07 PM

Even though they haven't obtained planning permission, (and I agree, it is the Law) one can't just evict and chuck out people from their dwellings without putting some contingency arrangements in place. Has the local council any ideas about where these folk will find shelter? They will become virtually 'refugees', which isn't humane or civilised. A proper Travellers Site could at least have been prepared for them months ago, with proper facilities, where they could live legally and in peace. There must be elderly and babies etc among the travellers, it isn't right to shove them out. I'm reminded a bit of the Highland Clearances, where people were forced out of their crofts to make way for sheep!

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 03:24 PM

Save Dale Farm video on Youtube


This is worth watching to see a Traveler speaking of the pending eviction. Ten minutes, and worth every second.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 03:29 PM

Of very special interest, imo, are the comments that are down the Youtube page (below the video).

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 04:34 PM

Fred, have you any land beside you that could house them ? They steal, crap everywhere, dump litter and do what they want as the police can't be bothered chasing after them as they give false names and just bugger off to pester another area.

The days of singing tinkers who do odd jobs, play music and work hard are long gone. These bastards robbed my mother in law and father in law who were in their mid 80's, they posed as Water Board workers,once in they wrecked the house and stole a lot of priceless items. The police told us they knew them, never caught up with them might I add. Scum of the earth who I hope rot in hell only good point is, figures show their kids die young.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 04:38 PM

By the way Fred, did you not make a very emotional and dramatic speech of departure here a few months ago before you unleashed your plans to create some sort of forum in which you wanted to close down Mudcat ?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Smokey.
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 04:48 PM

Bluesman, I've been robbed by non-travellers, and where I live is completely surrounded by the buggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 05:01 PM

Smokey, robbing a couple in their 80's was low, you would not believe the mess they left, police said it was a father and two sons, they left a trail across the country of hurt and misery. Why were their photographs not put on Crimewatch ? Oh I know, because they have rights, yes rights which they use daily as a tool to screw us.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Smokey.
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 05:08 PM

Of course it was low, but it was done by thieves. My only point is that their being travellers is as irrelevant as if they were gay thieves, ginger haired thieves or any other sub-group. Everyone, in general, exploits whatever 'rights' they have.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 05:48 PM

I have just returned home from Whitby Folk Week, where the contribution of Travellers was acknowledged and celebrated on all sides. Thomas MacCarthy and Simon Doyle and his family, in particular, provided hugely enjoyable samples of the songs and tunes which have enriched our traditions. I was also privileged to listen to Sheila Stewart talk about her pride in her Traveller culture.

It is therefore very, very deeply depressing to come back home to encounter the racist prejudice expressed here by the pseudonymous Guest "Bluesman", and the alarming sentiment rejoicing that "their kids die young".

I am sorry for the losses of "Bluesman's" mother and father-in-law, but these cannot be blamed on the whole Traveller community. It is utterly unacceptable to condemn all Travellers for the actions of a few.

Fred McCormick and I both live in Merseyside where we are very aware of the dangers of racism which led in 2003 to the murder of a young man of Irish Traveller background, Johnny Delaney, in Ellesmere Port.

Thanks to Fred for continuing to remind us all of the oppression experienced by the Traveller community.

Matthew Edwards

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 02:59 AM

Good grief, how could ANYONE rejoice that 'figures show their kids die young'? Sounds like Adolph Hitler!
There are thieves and ne'er-do-wells of all races and persuasions, but the majority in any group is made up of good people who only ask for a peaceful existence. Racism and 'ethnic cleansing' attitudes are dangerous and hate-provoking. I don't want to see such things perpetrated here in UK (or anywhere!).

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 04:35 AM

The planning system is already a complete shambles and Cameron would, effectively, abolish it altogether so that the rich who he, like most of our elected politicians, represents - rather than we who elected him - can do whatever they like.

Where I live there is a land owner who appears to pay only 'lip service' to the planning system. Complaints to the local council, by local residents, about some of his more outrageous developments and plans, are routinely ignored. Perhaps it's just a coincidence, but the land owner is himself a property developer and appears to be well acquainted with the planning dept. It's not what you know etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 04:46 AM

Shimrod, a similar thing happened in my last village. A chap decided to build three dwellings in his back garden, in spite of the fact that the access was too narrow for emergency vehicles, and the plot was ridiculously small. There were several objections submitted by neighbours etc, but he was granted permission. He was a well-off businessman and...a Councillor on the PC!

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 05:20 AM

"Sounds like Adolph Hitler!"
Doesn't it just - and in the long run it adds up to the same thing - ethnic cleansing and genocide.
May as well start to set up our extermination camps now, there are far too many of them to wait until they die off naturally, and the fact that they tend to have large families means their number is increasing daily - perhaps enforced sterilisation would be a good start.
It really is time that armchair (sometimes, not so "armchair"; I've seen the result of arson attacks on Traveller sites) fascists are forced to confront the consequences of their racist bile on humanity.
If Bluesman and his ilk targetted his hatred at any other ethnic or social group in Britain they would soon be viewing the world through prison windows - let's look at that aspect of ignoring the law before talking about planning permission for people who are just looking for somewhere to live.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Musket
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 05:57 AM

I suppose there are many interpretations of "victimisation," "racism" and use of the word "ethnic."

Lets at least get one thing clear.. We have a society, and in order to claim a stake in that society, you need to contribute if you can or be cared for by it if you can't.

Putting the apocryphal Guinness label where your tax disk should be and always dealing in cash is not contributing to the business economy from where I am sitting. Having tax payers pay for your mess to be cleared up when you bugger off isn't fair either.

They are not an ethnic group, they are people who choose not to abide by society's rules. I see no reason why society has to pander to them. People are people and as such have a right to peaceful existence. But people also have the right to contribute to the community they enjoy living alongside.

When I see one fill in a tax form, I'll start advocating their rights. Don't get me wrong, I live near Doncaster, (the woods are full of 'em.) I've sold land to travellers who wish to build a house to retire and people are people, good and bad. You can't generalise, but you can talk about risk. And when camps were set up at the end of an industrial estate where we had premises, the risk of finding the place emptied and trashed as a goodbye present increased. To the point of being realised too. Did they criminals end up answering for their crimes? Well, no. The police said it isn't worth pursuing them.

You can't make people like those who choose not to abide by society's rules and order, you can scream about ethnic cleansing all you like, but if they joined in instead of ignoring, there wouldn't be an "ethnic group" or whatever to be "cleansed" or however you wish to describe people freely expressing an opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 06:11 AM

If the travelling community want to be accepted into mainstream society then let them start paying tax,send their kids to school as no one prevents them from education.

The negative image is brought on by the travellers themselves. If they insist on being classed as a differnt people then that is what they will get!! Crime is rampant and the settled community is despised and preyed on.

Poverty? let's face it these people are not short of cash!! They go on about their way of life being disrupted when they squat on private property disrupting some poor innocent persons life! Complain about no amenities like restrooms and washing,well if you want to live a vagrants life then thats how it is anyway they can well afford to install these necessities themselves. Civic life starts with Personal Responsibility in other words this section of the travelling community needs to clean up it's act.

What has happened to drama Queen Fred ? Remember his words "I will never return, goodbye, goodbye Mudcat"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1148767/Pensioner-faces-jail-refusing-pay-council-tax-travellers-door-commit-250-crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 07:53 AM

"let them start paying tax..."
Nope - let society first recognise them as human beings and treat them as such - why should any social group which is denied the basic needs of life - somewhere to stop, sanitation, drinking water, protection from racist bigotry like yours.... the basic needs of life, even consider paying taxes to a society that has totally rejected them.
School - do you know what happens to Traveller children who attend school, usually at the hands of bigots like yourself? How can they possibly consider sending their children to school, especially if they are not allowed to stop in one spot long enough for them to do so; the same goes for regular employment.
Your racist-based ignorance is typical of the bile I have been listening to for most of my life; I am tired of inadequates like yourself taking out their inadequacies on 'soft target' like Travellers, or immigrants, or anybody who happens to be different than they are.
I think it is you who is very much in need of an education
"They are not an ethnic group, they are people who choose not to abide by society's rules."
No Ian, they are people who have been born to a way of life which is no longer "convenient". There are nowhere near enough legal stopping places for the travelling community as it stands at present. If they stop illegally they risk being driven off and stand to having their homes confiscated. Alternativly, if they move into houses they are greeted with open and agressive hostility, running the risk of having themselves and their children harrassed and abused, physically and mentally, by people who sdhare your ignorance-based views - seen it happen dozen of times.
Nobody has to "earn the right" to be treated as a human being in this life - it comes with being born human - except if you happen to be born a Traveller, it would seem!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 08:45 AM

Before this thread gets closed down, because of abusive postings by pseudonymous "Guests", I would like to mention that "Bluesman's" real first name appears to be Keith. It wouldn't take a brain the size of Einstein's to work out which Keith.

It takes two to debate sensibly and Keith is obviously neither a sensible or rational person. Therefore, I won't be entering into any further discussion with him. Whoever he is, he is obviously a thoroughly nasty and bigoted piece of work, and I am only sorry that I have to share this planet with his like.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 08:55 AM

For anyone genuinely interested in the humane treatment of human beings, a demonstration has been called for Saturday September 10th at Dale Farm. For more details visit .

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 09:37 AM

One should mention that Dale Farm is adjacent to Billericay one of the more wealthy (posh) areas of Essex. And the contention of having a higher demographic of traveller children in the local school (Crays Hill) without receiving extra funding to cope with their particular educational needs, caused a walk out of the school governors and subsequent pulling of all non traveller children from the school. For some years the school has been open and teaching an ever shrinking population of traveller children only.

However, the school has also been teaching adult traveller women and engaging them in taking up governor duties in the school spokespeople for their community.   The space is there and if the council gave permission for them to really settle there, the fear of being shoved along might mitigate the abuse of the site some people complain about.

As an aside there is development planned for north Chelmsford that will introduce 4000 new homes, a secondary school and train station. Included in that plan is a measely traveller site of only 10 pitches.   It appears the plan is to break them up into smaller and smaller groups and to finally do away with traveller culture.

I know that some new travellers seem only to be tax dodgers, but I find this much less offensive than the likes of Sir Philip Green who also avoids paying taxes and trashes the entire globe and engages in human rights abuses with impunity.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 10:21 AM

Matthew. Sorry, I've only just seen your posting about the Johnny Delaney murder.

In 2003 I was taking care of my mother who was in the last dying throes of senile dementia, plus a whole lot of other things, and it got that way that I just did not know what was going on in the world outside. A situation I'm sure you'll recognise and appreciate.

So the sum total of my knowledge is restricted to the song you wrote about him. Any chance you could post it here?

Will you be at the next Lion session in 2 weeks time? If we can't do anything else at least we can sing a few songs for social justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 10:26 AM

Ah, of course, if you abide by the rules, you are a racist bigot eh?

Mr Carroll, you have every right to question people who don't understand that not paying taxes and leaving your filth for others to clean up. After all, they are some weird heritage that must be protected like Stonehenge.

Living in Ireland these days, you don't have to put up with diddycoys. Mainly because the buggers are all over here.

It is easy to sing Ewan McColl songs about freeborn men and thirty foot trailers, and getting all misty eyed over their plight. Tell you what, let's end their plight shall we?

If they stop being a criminal menace, decent people might stop pointing out their faults. If they start contribute and paying their way, decent people might stop asking the authorities to protect them from the criminal elements within new age travellers and diddycoys, because the culture of crime seems t be part of the tradition rather than impoverished circumstances.

In the meantime, there are always those who can use them as an excuse for their ill thought out outrage against the majority population, and there are always those like my mate who used to own a small construction plant repair business. He loved them so much he once accepted a cheque from one.... Funny that. Before he took it to the bank, he used to say the particular family were misunderstood. After he presented the cheque, well.. I blush at what he used to say. I doubt the sanctimonious Mr Carroll would have liked it anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 11:17 AM

The good news is, Basildon Borough Council leader Tony Ball said "It will be going ahead very soon".

The council, has its own budget of £9.2 million for the operation. The police is now expected to begin booking hotel accommodation for its officers near Dale Farm, in preparation for the eviction.

I would prefer to see a group of ex squaddies deal with it and the police to keep a safe distance and let them get on with the job in hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 11:38 AM

Like Matthew Edwards, I have just had the pleasure of attending a session with Thomas McCarthy, Sheila Stewart and others at Whitby: a profoundly moving experience. They, and others like them, are responsible for loving, preserving and nurturing many of the things I hold most dear. A very welcome counterblast to some of the stuff you can, alas, read on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 12:02 PM

Tommy Armstrong had something relevant to say on a very similar topic:
"And what would a dee if aw had the power mesel'
Aw would hang the twenty candymen and Johnny who carries the bell"

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 12:23 PM

Some of the sentiments expressed by Steamin' Willie and Bluesman are frighteningly intolerant, not least Willie's exhortation "Tell you what, let's end their plight shall we?"

Words like this can have tragic consequences, and such language doesn't belong here. The family of Johnny Delaney have suffered terribly though his death; no more families should be subjected to such brutality.

The killing of Johnny Delaney in Ellesmere Port on 28 May 2003 wasn't widely reported at the time, but it deserves to be far better known. He was living at the time with his family on a traveller's site in Liverpool, and went over to Ellesmere Port that day to visit some cousins. He was taunted by a group of five youths who called him racist names; he tried to run away but fell, whereupon the youths assaulted him, kicking his head so violently that he died from his injuries later that night in the Countess of Chester Hospital.

The police rightly treated this as a hate crime, but at the trial at Chester Crown Court the judge ruled that the attack was not racially motivated, and sentenced only two of the youths to four years imprisonment for manslaughter.

Johnny's family campaigned against the injustice, but the struggle was too much for Johnny's father who died not long afterwards.

You can read a report of the trial on the BBC and there is a very good article by Audrey Gillan in The Guardian.

I have made a song about Johnny, but I won't publish it here yet as I want to be sure his family are happy with it first.

Matthew

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 12:47 PM

I like to hope that the intolerance expressed by too many people on this thread is not the attitude of the general population. It is little different than that shown to Black people in 1950s-USA. I am seldom gobsmacked, but in this instance I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 12:56 PM

"you have every right to question people who don't understand that not paying taxes and leaving your filth for others to clean up...."
We all leave filth for others to clean up - and isn't not paying taxes what the rich do when they deposit their wealth in off-shore accounts.
The difference is that nobody has proposed that the above be exterminated, that they be forced to live without running water and sanitation and that the should have to live under th constant threat of being abused and assaulted by the fascist scum who have posted here.
Get a life and get some understanding for the lives of others.
And by the way, I spent thirty years in the company of these degenerate theives and felt more threatened walking down Wandsworth Hish Street late at night than I ever did on any one of the hundreds of Traveller sites I visited
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 01:09 PM

Why are you calling them "travellers" they are not travelling, this pack of Pikey scum on this site are illegals, run a couple of D8's over the site once darkness falls, should do the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 01:26 PM

Well Mad Mick who used to live near me and drank in my local pub was a delight to know. Likewise Sprout, who used to turn up in his trotting sulky every so often. But I gather that other families were a problem at the Red Lion before they were barred, quite a long time ago. Most sets of people contain some good and some bad. But to judge the entire set on the basis of the bad ones is bigotry however you slice it.

Recent rigorous statistical studies have revealed that the rich differ from the rest of us - and not in a good way.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 01:42 PM

Scum of the earth who I hope rot in hell only good point is, figures show their kids die young.

...this pack of Pikey scum on this site are illegals, run a couple of D8's over the site once darkness falls, should do the job.

Bluesman, from the tone of these remarks - and similar ones from you on other threads - you seem to be constantly consumed by blind hatred and to be completely devoid of the power of rational and reasoned argument.

Why is it necessary to say such things in Mudcat posts? Isn't it possible to debate the difficult questions that arise in society without resorting to such diatribes? If you disagree with a point of view - which you're perfectly entitled to do - why not express it with composure?

And why does this unreasoning rage always seem to appear largely in arguments between UK 'Catters and less so in discussions between our friends in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 02:10 PM

Because you don't get this vermin over there, they remain in areas they can steal,laugh at and shaft people like the drama queen from Liverpool who runs after them known as Fred. They crap all over the law and more or less do what they want. Hope that answers your question.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 02:14 PM

Yes Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 02:15 PM

Evolutionary IQ Liberal versus Conservative

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Grendel's Dad
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 02:23 PM

No travllers in the USA eh? Shows how much Bluesman knows. Take a look at this and you'll see differently http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/migrations/gyp/gypstart.html .

That's not counting the Oakies who were discriminated and hassled in the thirties in very muc the same way that travellers in Britain are today.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 02:27 PM

Sorry folks, I forgot my vow of silence where Bluesman aka Keith is concerned. Agus fagáimead siúd what a tosser. Him, I mean. Not me.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 03:12 PM

I am surprised that such racist and wicked statements have been allowed to remain on this thread. Can the moderator not delete them as offensive?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 03:25 PM

VT, that otherwise interesting study would appear to be undermind by the assertion that liberals control the media. Plainly both in the USA and the UK that is not so and the dominant media are very reactionary. Possibly the circle could be squared by allowing for the "countervailing values" of which teh writer speaks

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 03:33 PM

"I am surprised that such racist and wicked statements have been allowed to remain on this thread. Can the moderator not delete them as offensive?"

That means that when you post something a prejudiced person disagrees with--well, how would you respond if your posts were deleted because he/she asked?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 03:41 PM

Don't feed the trolls is always a good position in this sort of thread I think. There is a difference between arguments caused by actual differences of opinions, and those caused by malicious stirrers trying to fire people up. For that reason, a simple statement of one's position is probably best, rather than engaging in any kind of discussion with the usual pseudonymous suspects.
I will go and put on a CD of some traveller singers, or possibly a recording of the Oakley Evictions.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 03:42 PM

Sorry, Oakey Evictions(not Okies, something else altogether)

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 03:46 PM

I know what you mean, 999, and everyone has a right to express their disagreement or opinions, it's what makes a forum stimulating and interesting. I just feel there are limits of decency and common standards which should be drawn. Several people have posted here expressing either agreement or otherwise with the thread's topic in a civilised and articulate way, without becoming savagely racist or abusive.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 03:52 PM

I am with you, Eliza, believe me. When your heart's in the right place and another's isn't, I think the good heart wins.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 03:56 PM

For those who like this sort of thing(and hopefully even for those who don't) here is a recording of the fabulous Thomas McCarthy's singing

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 04:04 PM

Fred, you were looking the lyrics to "Hot and Cold"
I found them for you. I think it Katy Perry who sang it.


You change your mind
Like a girl changes clothes
Yeah you, can be a mess
Like a someone
I do know

And you always think
I will speak
Critically

I should know
That you're no good at it

Cause you're hot and you're cold
You're yes and you're no
You're in and you're out
You're up and you're down
You're wrong when it's right
It's black and it's white
you fight, you say bye
you moan and then cry

You don't really want to stay, no
But you don't really want to go-o
You're hot and you're cold
You're yes and you're no
You're in and you're out
You're up and you're down

Someone call a doctor
Gotta case of a guy with bi-polar
Stuck on a roller coaster
you can't get off this ride

You change your mind
Like a girl changes clothes

Cause you're hot and you're cold
You're yes and you're no
You're in and you're out
You're up and you're down
You're wrong when it's right
It's black and it's white
you fight, you say bye
you moan and then cry.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 04:07 PM

Try this link Greg, oh such great people
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gang-held-after-brutal-robbery-of-elderly-pair-1971256.html

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 04:10 PM

A soulmate for you pair to vote for at the next election - from the end of the Radio Ballad 'The Travelling People"
Jim Carroll

Five hundred years of timeless days.
We wandered through the land-
But now the guardians of the clocks
Have said our race is damned.
They say our race is damned.

Harry Watton; West Midlands Justice of the Peace.
"How far does it come in your mind before you say I have done everything I possibly can and I will help the broad mass of these people. But there are some I can do nothing with whatever, then doesn't the time arise in one's mind when one has to say, all right, one has to exterminate the impossibles. I know all that leads to in one's mind, Naziism, who is it next, the Gypsies, the tinkers, the Jews, the Coloured Man. I don't accept that really on these particular…."

Charles Parker
Well, I don't think... exterminates a terrible word... you can't really mean that?"

Watton
"Why not?"

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 05:06 PM

If a white man falls off a chair drunk, it's just a drunk. If a Negro does, it's the whole damn Negro race. ~Bill Cosby

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 05:48 PM

Does Bluesman actually listen to the Blues? Does he learn from them?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 06:00 PM

I have had a few traveller children come into my class briefly over the years. It was so hard for them as they spoke 'differently', dressed 'differently' and through no fault of their own were not very far advanced in the three R's. One small boy refused to take his huge thick coat off on a hot day, he felt more secure wearing it. Minorities suffer just because they are 'different'. The traveller children were invariably bullied in the playground, even though we teachers did all we could to prevent it. We should try to come to terms with 'difference' with compassion and kindness, and do all we can to stop vicious bullying, by children or by adults. These Dale Farm travellers should be listened to and helped. There must be a way to accommodate their needs sensibly without physically chucking them off the site. They must be dreading the coming confrontation, especially the old and the children.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 06:02 PM

"That man tae man, the hale world ower
Shall brithers be for a' that"

There are good and bad in all communities. I am proud to call Sheila Stewart and Thomas McCarthy friends.

Kathy Hobkirk

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 06:27 PM

Very true GUEST. The kid was probably hiding school books under his coat, shifty little buggers that they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 07:06 PM

Because you don't get this vermin over there, they remain in areas they can steal,laugh at and shaft people like the drama queen from Liverpool who runs after them known as Fred. They crap all over the law and more or less do what they want. Hope that answers your question.

Where - in Sussex? We get travellers in Sussex. There are some in our area at the moment.

"Vermin"... "drama queen"... No - it doesn't answer the question as to why you can't participate in a reasoned debate without resorting to puerile language and insult.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 03:46 AM

It amazes me that people refer to these Pikey's as "travellers" and yet you have to get a court order to get them to move on !


I think there is some confusion here about the term "travellers". Travellers are nomads. They choose a way of life which involves travelling from place to place.


Pikey's rip people off, and live by stealing. These people might call themselves travellers if it suits them, but they are not, in the traditional sense.

Before the term "Travellers" became popular (it sounds so sweet), we used the word "Gypsy" to describe people who lived in this way. Again, with the genuine Romany Gypsy, there some romantic image of good people, with a strong moral code, who would not rob or steal, but who choose to live outside society.


Political correctness seems way over the top and they play it to the limit. Here in Herefordshire, 'Thieving Gyppo bastards'is a popular term! They don't seem to do themselves any favours when it comes to relations with the local communities, do they?

The term 'travellers' comes from what happens to your possessions when these Pikey scum break in to your home. They are also guilty of animal cruelty. Dogs tied up on short chains, starved horses on every so called site, Can I keep a pony in my garden, can I hell!

They all work on the side, back pocket, do shoddy work, with stolen materials, at inflated cost, then dump left over tarmac, rubble and cuttings in your back alley. You are then told, that you are responsible for cleaning it up, as it's your property, even after giving them registration numbers of the guilty, expensive vehicles.

They pay no taxes, they never divulge how much they spend on their lavish slut weddings, christenings etc, because it's too much to dare let the tax man know what they can afford, it's always cash and they never fail to leave a path of destruction and devastation behind. They have one good point though, they have long running family feuds in which they fight, stab and rape each other, natural culling of numbers I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 07:00 AM

Mudcat allows freedom to express opinions. I feel it is important to expose the true facts about these people and extremely important to inform the uninitiated.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 07:09 AM

The REAL Gypsies

'Marks in the Grass' - John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 07:14 AM

What with the fighting stabbing and raping and choosing their expensive vehicles I am genuinely surprised they have time for stuffing all this tarmac and rubble down your back passage. Have these people got super powers?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 07:51 AM

Big Fat Gypsy Wedding - Youtube


A strange but revealing documentary. Many clips are on Youtube.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 07:54 AM

The official youtube site for this series..

Big Fat Gypsy Wedding - Channel 4 youtube site

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 09:04 AM

I was transfixed! :0) Some of those dresses weighed over 5 stone (!)..and they literally cut into the flesh on the hips of the girls, so heavy were they.

Ouch, I bet Paddy felt that the day after. Sure wish men would grow their hair long again. I don't like all these shaved heads..reminds me of the terrible days of skinheads.

Anyway, back to Dale Farm............

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 10:36 AM

Guest999, Regarding the nature reserve story, this may be the link you were searching for.

Best wishes

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024755/Travellers-invade-nature-reserve--complain-lack-toilet-facilities-contravenes-hu

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 10:47 AM

I wasn't looking for a nature reserve story. It's simply more of your crap. NO THANK YOU. I jus' don't open your links. Capiche?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 11:12 AM

There are many things that the Daily Mail reports inaccurately.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: meself
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 02:30 PM

Please, people - you're all just playing his game.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Musket
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 04:13 AM

Problem here is entrenched views yet again.

When Steamin' Willie talked about ending a plight, some pillock started making out he was into mass extermination or some other tosh. When Bluesman takes the piss or whatever he is doing, some like to feel outraged.

The simple truth is; people are people and statistically, the collection of people known as travellers, (to my knowledge, little as it is, a collective term for Romanies, Irish Diddycoys, burnt out hippies and those who have found a way to live without paying taxes,) have issues, some brought on by their way of life, some brought on by themselves.

When a local town, through the local paper and petitions complained that the local NHS, which I was involved with, was spending money chasing around the local camp with health visitors, district nurses etc, they spoke of waiting times etc taking second place to looking after scum. They didn't talk of the risk of TB for the local community as it was rampant in this particular camp, and the travellers use local shops, pubs etc.

I mentioned this when questioned by the local newspaper. They led with "Local NHS chief calls travellers vermin."

Sometimes, it is best to just go to the pub, have a laugh with your mates about football and religion, come home, make sure the alarm is set and the dog alert, and try to see the good in people like Jim Carroll, who defends travellers and their take take take attitude to society, whilst occasionally saying bankers and businessmen with similar attitudes are to be frowned upon.

The difference is Jim, one pays for the shit of the other to be cleared up. Other than that, both sections of the population are having a laugh. (At the expense of most people on this thread by the way.)

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 05:03 AM

IIan Mather
From Bluesman:
"Scum of the earth who I hope rot in hell only good point is, figures show their kids die young."
As you say - people are people and should be treated as such.
Your outrage appears to be for those who don't pay taxes - does that include those who have offshore accounts, and do you advocate that they should be dehumanised, firebombed and deprived of the basic means of life and health - if not, why not?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Musket
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 07:44 AM

Jim.. Jim... Jim...

I make a point where I, or at least my NHS body with my full knowledge and blessing, tried to raise the quality of life for travellers, and you reckon I advocate firebombing them???   I don't wish to feel martyred to their ruddy cause here, but you say "deprived of the basic means of life and health." My car got a couple of eggs thrown at it for trying NOT to deprive the buggers.

When the local camp emptied (an official council camp for them, so nobody was evicted) they thanked us by stripping the roof of the local health centre of its lead. We know it was them because the police did their job for once and stopped the convoy a few miles out and found it, c/w the stamped markings. Nobody was charged though because it is easier to appease them than subject them to the laws. Puts paid to your victim mentality, but like you, the authorities think they are an ethnic group, rather than some gypsies, some Irish, some hippy types and many who opted out of society for their own reasons.

I have an account in Jersey by the way. I know you get wet if you try to walk there, but does that make it offshore? (I also have one in Dublin with AIB, but that's another story.)

Stick to 1954 song fascism mate, it's the only subject you have credibility on, even if I don't agree with what you write.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 07:54 AM

The Travellers' Times - Including articles and video on Dale Farm

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 09:35 AM

Ian
Where on earth have I suggested you - or anybody firebomb them?
I have said it has happened in the past, which it has.
I have also said that attitudes here echo the same taken by the Nazis, which it does.
I have never experienced such vituprative hatred towards any community than that expressed by Boozeman and Screaming Willie on these Traveller threads.
Your own attitude reflects a somewhat typical Little Britain, ignorance-fueled prejudice against people you have obviously never spent any time with or talked to to any great extent.
You describe here the attitude of criminals, not any particular breed or culture, just criminals and you give the impression that all Travellers are like that - THEY ARE NOT.
You don't respond to my not paying tax point - again, you reserve your indignation for Travellers who don't pay taxes.
I repeat, Travellers have been rejected by society today - why should they pay into such a society?
If they started paying taxes (some of them do BTW), would that guarantee them somewhere safe and comfortable to stop, running water, sanitation, education for their children, protectection from harrasment by bigots like yourself, or from bent coppers demanding bribes. Would that mean that, if they chose to move into a house they wouldn't be running the risk of bricks, (or even firebombs) through their windows, or shit pushed through their letterboxes????
Of course it bloody wouldn't - bigotry like yours is older than the ballads and, despite laws which are supposed to protect, it is getting worse.
If a builder had purchased Dale Farm and built houses on it without planning permission, at worst, he would probably be given an affordable fine and then left to his own devices - he certainly wouldn't have his land confiscated, nor would his customers be faced with homelessness, as are the Travellers.
I watched the programme on Dale Farm a couple of weeks ago and I found the double standards breathtaking- one of the campaigning localas picking up a small piece of plasic pipe as an example of the mess being left there. I'm old enough to remember the heaps of rat-infested, stinking, rotting rubbish left lying around the London streets during the dustmans' strike back in the seventies - we al make mess.
For me, the question is, if they are evicted, where are they going to go?
Is driving them onto illegal stopping places at the side of the road with no access to clan water, no toilet facilities, children in danger from passing traffic.... and all the dangers and intolerances of unofficial sites really an alternative to leaving them on land they have purchased and on which they have made their home - do either Travellrs or the settled community benefit from such spiteful behaviour?
The fascism in targetting a specific cultural group for your hatred and intollerance is all yours mate.
Jim Carroll
PS I'm not really surprised that you are one of these people who equate the expressing of an opinion contrary to your own (on folk son in ths case) as "fascism" - wonderful how all those who died in the ovens of Auschwitz soon pass from memory by being trivialised by such small-minded nastiness!

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 09:40 AM

You did say it Jim, you said it in one of your earlier posts, Ian is correct.I was a little shocked myself when you said it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 09:53 AM

I just read every post Jim C made on this thread, and NOWHERE did he say that.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 10:27 AM

I believe that I am right in saying that some of the sites at Dale Farm do have the benefit of planning permission. And that the site so occupied would be a lot more sightly than the scrap yard it once was. It is plainly wrong that those homes with permission should be bulldozed. However, at the end of the day, if planning permission is refused, councils do have the power to bulldoze and they have used that against developers. I remember a farmer who hid a house inside a hayrick for over 4 years in the hope of getting an established use certificate. He didn't. Then there was the farmer who build "stables" with lavatories kitchens and glazed windows... Those powers must be used and indeed there should be power to require obligatory reinstatement for unpermitted demolition, a trick often used by "developers". Otherwise planning control becomes optional.

Of course the present coalition is planning to create exactly such a system so that their rich mates can get away with environmental murder, but that is another story.

The sting of the Dale Farm problem and its clones is that the travellers have nowhere else to go. No councils live up to their obligations to provide sufficient sites for those of itinerant lifestyle. Most stoppers (travellers who stop travelling) do so because there is nowhere to rest or overnight when they do travel.

If council's powers to move traveller sites were suspended for so long as councils did not meet there site obligations - but hygeine regulations were enforced (with power to impound but not destroy chattels at the property to secure the cost) one might see some improvement.

As it stands those suffering the most injustice are the travellers.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 10:28 AM

PS - there's a "there" in there that should be a "their".

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 10:43 AM

This society is full of people of all origins and backgrounds, who want all the benefits, and none of the responsibilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 11:02 AM

It seems strange that these 'travellers' have such an aversion to travelling. Could it be that the people living permanently on the Dale Farm site want to reap the benefits of calling themselves 'travellers' while avoiding the inconveniences of living a nomadic lifestyle?

Just move the fucks on, and if they won't go peacefully, arrest them. Make living on someone else's property, land, or having no planning permission a criminal offence, so the police should deal with them. Personally, I'd sent the Paras in under darkness.

There is one simple reason Irish travellers are here (besides cliaming in several different dole offices), it's because Irish law makes trespass a criminal offence, whereas here it's a civil offence. Any person who camps on land that doesn't belong to them or camps without planning permission, has their car, caravan, or motor home impounded until they pay the fine, repeat offences and it's jail. That's all Cameron has to do.




It is not just eviction that is required but PERMANENT DEPORTATION of these venomous scum back to the Irish Republic. For years successive Councils around the UK have just given in to them while Social Services queue up to pay them every benefit going. And that is how they live - by sponging off the state and CRIME whilst being ludicrously allowed to build permanent homes in spite of their claimed 'traveller' status.


Take your ringside seats ladies and gentlemen this is going to be entertainment at it's finest. The beauty about the whole situation is, it highlights the problem with Pikey scum, you could not buy this publicity of the problems they cause. I look forward to the Victory thread here when it comes. This bout will rock your socks.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 11:04 AM

999
Thank you again - perhaps our guest might point out where I did say it. I apologise in advance if I am wrong, but I can't find it either.
I do accuse some here of being guilty of blind, ignorance-fueled hatred which is far more damaging to any community than the odd firebomb lobbed through the window of a caravan - like, for instance, the effigy of a "Pikey's" caravan burned at the Lewes festival a few years ago.
"and they have used that against developers."
I was indicating what tends to happen Richard - over here the practice, except in the odd case is to fine and then ignore - bulldozing unpermitted property only makes the press because of its rarety.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 11:17 AM

May I point out the typical lack of joined-up thinking in Bluesman's posts. The topic under discussion in this thread is whether some of the families at Dale Farm should be moved or not.

(a) Bluesman's vociferous opinion is that they should be cleared out and moved on.

(b) Bluesman also believes that the people to be moved out and onwards are vermin who pollute the areas that they go to, create mess which they don't clear up and cause disturbances by fighting, stealing and raping each other.

Now, if logic were to prevail and "b" is correct, surely it would make better sense to allow the polluting, fighting, raping, stealing messing vermin to remain where they are in a stable community, rather than spread their polluting, fighting, raping, stealing and messing all over the surrounding country? If "b" is correct, then "a" is stupid and illogical.

But joined up thinking never prevails, does it? Just rampant hate, absence of reason, and stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 11:21 AM

You seem to be hanging heavily on Travellers not travelling.
Most Travellers will nowadays remain on a site for part of the year and only venture away in circumstances where they know they can return.
Thanks to the repeal of the 1969 camping and caravan act by the Tory Goverment which at one time required all boroughs to provide a set number of stopping spaces for caravans, Travellers are no longer free to travel as they once were.
Culturally they are a Travelling community, born to travelling life and officially recognised as such - even by your squalid little government.
Thank you for your latest vomit of bile - this time openly racist, aimed at Irish Travellers - it underlines my point perfectly.
The Travelling communities in Britain are made up of several races, English (Romany and non-Romany), Irish, Scots and Welsh, now with a smattering of Eastern Europeans thrown in.
Whether they are able to travel or not is immaterial to how they are officially recognised.
You really should keep taking your medication!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 12:02 PM

Amid the racist filth infesting this thread, there is an interesting assertion (by an "NHS chief") that TB is rampant among the traveller community. Is this true, and what is being done about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 01:03 PM

"Is this true,"
No it isn't - though like badgers, it is a good argument for their extermination, don't you think?
I WONder if Ian Mather is still around and if so, whether he would like to tell us if he would be happy to entrust the safety of his children to the tender mercies of somebody obviously as unstable as his friend Looman - or maybe he thinks he's only joking?
I didn't actually accuse anybody of advocating firebombing - but I think I've just spotted somebody who might be up for the job - waddya think Ian??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 01:23 PM

Mither - your post of 4:13 Mudcat time. Where and when were you so reported? Mr Google does not find it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Musket
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 02:19 PM

Jim wrote;
"Your outrage appears to be for those who don't pay taxes - does that include those who have offshore accounts, and do you advocate that they should be dehumanised, firebombed and deprived of the basic means of life and health"

Technically, you asked if I think those with offshore accounts should be firebombed. Quite. As I have such a bank account, perhaps I should not allow myself to play with matches.

I don't advocate for either, and your comments certainly infer I would be comfortable with the plight of our more mobile brethren.

Perhaps we should "collect" songs about the wandering bankers, the old fashioned skills of the hedge fund managers and the sense of community in the wine bars of EC1? Perhaps get a bloke with red braces to tap out a tune on his Blackberry? Then they too can be defended for their opting out of abiding by the law of the land.

I am consistent in saying there are people and there are people. But I also know that where there are camps nearby, check your locks and don't leave your windows open. Good advice that, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 02:57 PM

"your comments certainly infer [sic] I would be comfortable with the plight of our more mobile brethren."

The word you want there is imply. Infer and imply are not interchangeable. FYI.


"INFER vs. IMPLY

The best way to remember the difference between these two words is to think in terms of the model used by communications theorists. Communication consists of a message, a sender, and a receiver. The sender can imply, but the receiver can only infer. The error that usually occurs is that the word infer is mistakenly used for imply."

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 03:35 PM

Comments don't infer, people infer.

Infer a penny, infer a pound.

Carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 03:35 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Musket
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 03:39 PM

Bugger

101

Once you finish looking up infer and imply, try looking up colloquial.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 03:44 PM

Don't be so fuckin' rude. Just say thanks and stop messing up the English language.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 04:11 PM

"Good advice that, by the way. "
Still no indication of your personal experience with Travellers - a camp in the area might sum it up.
We have a travelilng family living a few doors away and we still leave the back door unlocked at night.
As I said, thirty odd years working with Travellers; never robbed, mugged, threatened..... not by them anyway. I was once beaten up by Chelsea supporters - what do you advise, stay away friom Stamford Bridge maybe?
You really are from Bluesie's stable aren't you, though he has had the bottle to step out of his racist closet.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 04:38 PM

I don't know what the situation is in the present case, but it might be worth noting that in most places where the Travellers are found, they, and others with "no nationality," are denied citizenship and hence cannot vote.

"If there is a problem with the law, there are ways in a democracy to get the law changed" does not apply to them in most cases.

Posted in another thread, so I won't repeat it here. This is not a local "problem," and not confined to Travellers.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 04:51 PM

"does not apply to them in most cases."
Doesn't apply with Travellers with no permanent address - they have to be on a voting register in advance of any elction.
Somewhat academic anyway - as one memorable piece of graffiti once put t; "if voting chaged anything they'd abolish it."
The chances of any olitician in todays Britain taking up on behalf of Travellers is virtually non-existant - I think Ken Liingstone was the only one to support the Travellers cause anyway, so Thatcher neutralised any influence he might have once had.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 05:27 PM

Again here are some more true facts to highlight the problems we are having here in the UK.

A family of travellers paid for their children to be privately educated by claiming more than £100,000 in illegal handouts.

Mother-of-three Wendy Newland, 40, drove a top-of-the-range BMW and took holidays to North America and Europe after fleecing taxpayers with fraudulent claims.

Several other members of her family orchestrated a string of scams to obtain benefits.

Most were committed on their 15-acre mobile home and caravan site near Chertsey, Surrey.

Neighbours said Newland bought cars including a new £40,000 BMW X5.

She sent her ten-year-old daughter Rhianna to the £10,000-a-year Coworth-Flexlands prep school near Sunningdale, Berkshire.

And her sons Matthew, 19, and Michael, 16, attended the £7,000-a-year St John's Beaumont Prep School in Old Windsor when they were younger.

Newland is awaiting sentence after last week admitting four counts of benefit fraud involving £51,428.07.

But yesterday she showed no remorse and giggled as she told the Daily Mail: 'No one got hurt and we had a good time.

'Everyone wants to do the best for themselves and their children. I'm sure a lot of others would have done it if they would have thought of it. That's all I can say.'

Surrey Police raided the family's Green Acre Farm in 2002 when they found evidence of a cannabis factory, and 3,000 mobile phones worth £500,000 which had been stolen in an armed hijack.

No members of the family were implicated in those discoveries. But after a long-running investigation by the Department of Work and Pensions around 60 police officers raided the farm in 2008.

At Guildford Crown Court, Newland admitted two counts of obtaining property by deception and two of obtaining money transfers by deception by not declaring she was living with roofer Matthew Newland or that she was receiving income.

Her former sister-in-law, Caroline Draper Smith, 40, admitted five counts of fraud worth almost £51,000. Newland's mother Lena Draper-Smith, 70, has admitted one count of fraud worth £154.31.
Prep school: £7,000-a-year St John's Beaumont in Old Windsor

Prep school: £7,000-a-year St John's Beaumont in Old Windsor

Nelson Draper-Smith, Newland's 46-year-old brother, who is wheelchair-bound, admitted false representation after lying to the council to receive housing benefits.

He was ordered to pay £65 after the court heard how he had not made any money from the attempted fraud.

The rest of the family who have pleaded guilty will be sentenced on May 7. Matthew Newland, who is now estranged from his wife, was also due in court but jumped bail. A warrant has been issued for his arrest.

Lee Draper Smith, Lena's husband, has been charged with £75,397.90 of benefit fraud. He is said to be unwell and not fit to plead.

So as you can see, these are the true facts regarding these scroungers and thieves, just ignore the romantic stories posted here by the lost and lonely typed up beside the wine bottle or funny smelling cigarette. My posts are always backed up by links. By the way, the clean up of Dale Farm will take place shortly, I will of course keep everyone updated.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1267071/Scam-sends-travellers-prep-school-BMW-driving-caravan-site-woman-admits-benefit-

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 05:43 PM

"Again here are some more true facts to highlight the problems we are having here in the UK."

That should read facts. Facts by their nature are true. That's why they are called facts.

It seems to me, Mark, that you guys have NO sense of humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 06:25 PM

Fact
There is not one of those scams that have not been carried out 100 times over by settled people.
Fact - politicians have been operating scams over the last ten years by dishonestly claiming expenses they were not entitled to.
Along with the bankers and corporate speculators, political incompetence and corruption has driven Britain to the brink of bancruopcy.
In order to avoid the consequences of their actions, the lower paid are having to pay with loss of pensions, the closure of hospitals, massive cut-backs in education, loss of jobs.. and an all=-round lowering of living standard.
Any scams a handful of Travellers may have carried out is small-time compared to the behaviour of 'the great and good' of Britain.
For any criminal Traveller you could name, I could name you a hundred Myra Hyndleys, or Fred Wests, or Neilsens - killers, rapists, paedophiles, drug dealers, muggers, thieves, torturers, tax-evaders....... Haven't we just been reading about a care-nurse who was systematically killing off her patients?
There are criminals in every community - what's your point - settled community good - travelling community bad? I don't think so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 06:54 PM

Just imagine this happening to your wife, words fail me, such a shocking story. My heart went out to this lady when I read this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6634087/Travellers-threaten-horse-lover-to-get-land.html

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 06:58 PM

Mmmm... still no reply to my point about lack of joined-up thinking, Bluesman.

Which is it to be: (a) allow the "vermin", as you call them, to stay where they are, where they can cause less widespread terror, or (b) drive them off Dale Farm so they can spread their terror far and wide?

Presumably you haven't answered the point because you can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 07:30 PM

What do you expect from a racist?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 07:43 PM

White man - assuming you can count - why don't you collect the statistics for all the crimes you don't like, and then find out how they are attributable to different ethnic groups, and work out the distribution of those groups in the UK, and then do a statistical analysis of the results, and then come back and tell us that you have found that race is a statistically significant predictor of the commission of certain offences?

Without that what you are saying is just bullshit really.

Can Blue men sing the whites?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 07:50 PM

Travellers' Times Online Article on Travellers Living in Fear

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 07:57 PM

A solicitor friend of mine pointed out tonight,( a real one, educated, accomplished, successful and hygienically presentable), "Point out the obvious to those fools, if these people refuse to leave Dale Farm then they are not travellers, they are squatters, and you don't need sensitivity training to evict squatters."

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 07:57 PM

'Travellers' Times' Facebook page with uptodate articles on Dale Farm

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 08:06 PM

One of the messages on the Facebook page I linked to, above:

"Me and my family have lived threw being thrown of your own land . Even low there no were to go . The council gust say go to another county . We lived for two years nine months on a layby all the time fighting for a place to live . They wud not treat a dog like that . To be a gypsy is to have no rights . And like one of my local councillor sed don't give them work and they will go away ."


Tell your solicitor friend that in the blink of an eye in this present world, he may well end up having to become a squatter himself...then he will be able to view life 'from the other side' and be treated with the same hatred that he is, apparently, happy to give out to others.

What Goes Around, Comes Around....as an old lady selling clothes pegs and heather was heard to mutter just the other day....

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 08:25 PM

As I said, I have posted credible links to my comments. It has to be seen as a complete admission of defeat of an argument when one has to resort to posting links to a social website as credible proof ! Lol Yes, comments from invisible people or Pikey children on stolen computers cannot be viewed as fact, who knows. Please don't tell me you are a member of Facebook, is it not for website aimed at school kids ?

As my solicitor friend pointed out "people who refuse to leave Dale Farm are not travellers, they are squatters" He is of course 100% correct. We must respect the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 08:36 PM

If it's their land, how can they be squatters?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 08:50 PM

The council have been to court and there is a legal ruling on returning the land to its former greenbelt status.

Pikeys set up homes there without planning permission. So the law states they are illegal. So without planning permission, the council are within their rights to go in and clear the site.

The law is the law, hard to believe a few lost souls here wish to see people break it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 08:58 PM

I understand that okay, but they still can't be squatters on their own land. Squatting is when you're on someone else's.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 09:50 PM

The trouble with people is not that they don't know but that they know so much that ain't so. ~Josh Billings

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 01:53 AM

"We must respect the law. "
If the law is to be respected you would be banged up for the incitement of race hatred.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 03:39 AM

It has to be seen as a complete admission of defeat of an argument when one has to resort to posting links to a social website as credible proof... As my solicitor friend pointed out "people who refuse to leave Dale Farm are not travellers, they are squatters"

It has to be seen as a complete admission of defeat of an argument when one has to resort to quoting from a solicitor friend without using one's own powers of reasoning.

Still haven't got to the point of my question, have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 03:39 AM

From the Telegraph

"A spokesman for Basildon Council, which has been accused by protesters of ethnic cleaning and "systematic racism", said that planning officials would inspect the site in the coming days to assess what, ifanything, the travellers had taken down, before any action to remove them was taken.

He said: "This is not a mass eviction, it is a planning issue. Once the site has been cleared of anything that has been built illegally, they can move back.

"They own the land and are entitled to be there.""




From the BBC

"The travellers own the site at Dale Farm, but half of its pitches - 51 - do not have planning permission and have been deemed illegal."




From the well known left-winger )not) Eric Pickles

"Councils would also be eligible to share a pot of cash to create more official sites.

Local authorities would still have a duty to assess the accommodation needs of gypsy travellers (comment from RB - which they simply do not observe) and help accommodate traveller sites - but ministers say they are in a far better position than central government to decide what is best."



This whole article from the Guardian is worth reading. Indeed it should be compulsory. So sensible that no doubt white man willbe unable to understand it: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/29/dale-farm-evictions-travellers

Quite simply there is nowhere for travellers to go as a community, and there can be little or no doubt that the majority could not buy into the housing market even in these depressed times.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 04:11 AM

"As I said, I have posted credible links to my comments. It has to be seen as a complete admission of defeat of an argument when one has to resort to posting links to a social website as credible proof ! Lol Yes, comments from invisible people or Pikey children on stolen computers cannot be viewed as fact, who knows. Please don't tell me you are a member of Facebook, is it not for website aimed at school kids ?"


Yes, I am a member of FB, as you well know. For it is you who has made so many false FB pages in the names of so many good people.

Now, let me see, what do you use those pages for? To humiliate, to belittle and to try to get others to believe that we are like you.

We are not.

This morning, as I sit here writing this, I am listening to John Trudell...I have just put John's 'Crazy Horse' on my page, for I use *my* page to try to spread as much information as I can about what is happening in this world, the brutality, the corruption, the greed, the insensitivity. I use it to inform others about great music too.
I link up with other like-minded folks and gobble up the information they have, the message they too are trying to spread around the world....

I'll tell you this, The Power of Love is fast overcoming The Power of Hate because of the internet, for good people are being brought together as never before, to fight for this beautiful place we call HOME, to fight for each other, to fight against injustice.

And perhaps it is fitting that today 'Crazy Horse' sits on my page, along with these words from John's song, because they bring us right back to what is happening at Dale Farm:

"Crazy Horse, we hear what you say 'One Earth, One Mother, One does not sell the Earth that people walk upon' We are the land. How do we sell our Mother? How do we sell the Stars? How do we sell the Air'....." - John Trudell

John Trudell - Crazy Horse

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 04:22 AM

I am appalled that recently there have been several cases where Pikeys have purchased some land, then moved onto it very quickly and without any planning permission. Setting up mobile homes and small villages, Yet councils are unable to act to remove them.

The loophole is they buy land without proving where they obtained the money to do so, no doubt from the property they steal, or from conning pensioners with poor workmanship, such as pouring oil on driveways pretending they put tarmac down, or claiming state benefits in several Social Security offices.

Once on the land, they breach planning regulations but that is not seen as a serious crime, despite the wanton deliberate and mass intention to do so. They then use Civil Liberties and Human Rights laws as an excuse to remain living there. They push unwashed stinking children in front of press photographers in the hope of winning the hearts of lonely old women with too much time on their hands who trawl the likes of Facebook looking petitions to sign or failed snobs without substance who share their allergy to soap and water.

Pikeys have been known to install drainage, build walls and shelters and even roads… all without legal permission. It may take years to chase them through the courts, plus appeals, wastes councils time and money and therefore costs us all money.
They must forfeit their rights on the grounds that they have deliberately, wantonly, en-mass and with planned deception and intention gone about becoming residential illegally on their land.
Due to the massively deliberate illegal nature of their actions they should  loose their rights and be immediately evicted from the sites, by force if necessary.

Human Rights legislation is being miss-used. Deliberate Law breaking cannot be allowed to go un challenged and uncorrected. Actions such as this are anti-social in the extreme, non-conforming, deeply unsettling for the local communities, damages the countryside and yet in this situation the people causing the problem appear to be above the law and continue to flout the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 04:25 AM

I remember the Scottish and Irish travellers of the early and mid twentieth century, they carried their homes on their backs, or in hand carts....They made pots and pans, sold matches, clothes pegs ect.
They were known and often fed by the house dwellers who would listen to their singing or the music of the pipes for a couple of shillings.
It was considered lucky to be hospitable to a "tinker"

The "travellers" of today bear no relation to these folks.
They are in the main, a group who use their special status to live outside society and profit from the social security system.

An encampment was provided for them about twenty miles from where I live, which was soon turned into a fortress from which drug dealing, money lending, and extortion was carried out.
These businesses were enforced by young thugs with knives, who preyed on the numerous heroin addicts in the small town nearby.

After years of terrorism, the local council closed the place down(under the pretext of refurbishment, they had trashed all the facilites)
The families were rehoused where the police could keep an eye on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 04:25 AM

For those who would like to contact Basildon Council, their phone number is:

01268 533 333

Or if you would prefer to email them, this is the address to use.

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 04:27 AM

"en mass" = "en masse"
"loose" = "lose"
"miss-used" = "mis-used"
"un challenged" = "unchallenged"

Just a reminder... and now we have:

They push unwashed stinking children in front of press photographers in the hope of winning the hearts of lonely old women with too much time on their hands who trawl the likes of Facebook looking petitions to sign or failed snobs without substance who share their allergy to soap and water.

I think your words speak volumes - about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 04:27 AM

*MODERATOR PLEASE NOTE*


Would a moderator please bring this comment by Lizzie Cornish to the attention of Max. She provides on proof to her comment.
Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 04:11 AM

"Yes, I am a member of FB, as you well know. For it is you who has made so many false FB pages in the names of so many good people. "

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 04:29 AM

I also recall Tinkers who made pots and pans, sold matches, clothes pegs ect. Akenaton, those days are long gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 04:31 AM

Please explain your comment Lizzie, is it not a bit early for you ?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 05:49 AM

"Farewell to the pony, the cob and the mare
The reins and the harness are idle
You don't need a strap when you're breaking up scrap
So farewell to the bit and the bridle

Goodbye to the tent and the old caravan
To the tinker, the gypsy, the traveling man
And goodbye to the thirty foot trailer

Farewell to the fields where we've sweated and toiled
At pullin' and crownin' and liftin'
They'll soon have machines and the traveling queens
And their menfolk had better be shiftin'"

MacColl had it right, it was society that was changing....and not for the better.
But we are where we are and some if not most of these people are using our sentiment for a time long past to conceal a rotten and destructive lifestyle....benefit ridden and alchohol fuelled.
Where is the independence of the old Gaelic travellers or the Romanies?
You made this society, you must shoulder the blame for bankers offshore accounts, and minority groups who hold society to ransom.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 05:59 AM

Where do you go, akenaton, when you have nowhere to go?

The 'rounding up' of gypsies/travellers and sticking them on tiny 'reservations' is no different to what has happened to the American Indian.

Is it any wonder that many within the Travellers have no respect for those in the outside community? Why should they? Tell me, why should they?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Mayet
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 06:07 AM

From
'Disability, Social Care, Health and Travelling People'
By the Traveller Law Research Unit at Cardiff Law School with grant support from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation

A report examining existing research and literature relating to the social and health care needs of Travelling People

DEFINITION OF 'TRAVELLER'

"the term Travelling People is generally used (unless another term was employed in quoted source material or a more specific term is appropriate).
This includes the minority ethnic groups known as Gypsies - whether English, Scottish or Welsh and Irish Travellers; whether mobile, of limited mobility,
or no longer living a mobile way of life but settled in housing or in caravans on public or private sites."

HEALTH

The report comments on various causal factors relating to ill health and infection rates but I could only find one study of the incidence of TB.

The Commission on Itinerancy Dublin 1963 was satisfied that the incidence of tuberculosis was not higher than average.

A Kings fund in 1984 reported that " Research into the health care of travellers which concluded that ….the main explanation for their poor health lay in adverse environmental conditions and poverty "
And "significant evidence of travellers being turned away, often in a rude and harsh way, from doctors' surgeries"
In 1990 a guardian article pointe4d out that 'the issue of low immunisation rates among travellers has taken on a new significance arising out of the new GP contracts …which linked attainment of immunisation targets with remuneration " suggesting that it constituted a further disincentive to register traveller families.

On EVICTIONS the report states -

"Many researchers have expressed grave concerns about the often appalling state of the
accommodation and environmental conditions in which Travelling People are forced to
live. This has been an issue, together with the threat of eviction, which has been very
much of concern to our respondents."

In 1988 an unpublished report of a survey of the Association of Metropolitan Authorities members reported that 16/43 said they would evict women close to birth from unofficial sites 15/43 said they would evict mothers with new born babies.

"Travelling People have specifically referred to the stresses and dangers which result from repeated evictions by statutory authorities

... Researchers have emphasised how evictions can lead to a disruption of the (already poor) access Travelling People may have to health services and to Travelling People being forced to relocate to even less environmentally safe areas (i.e. Patel 1988; Durward 1990; Bancroft 1996). As the 1967 Ministry of Housing and Local Government Report Gypsies and other Travellers states, 'all too often Travellers end up on sites close to rubbish tips and the like, because there they make no noticeable difference to the
existing squalor'.

In other words, they may be pushed onto land which no one else wants, or may 'choose' to live there because they are less likely to be troubled by landowners."

The consequences of such eviction are not just short term, in that they appear to seriously disrupt
immunisation programmes and in consequence may lead to the high prevalence of polio and other infectious diseases amongst Travelling People.

link

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 06:08 AM

This is the only reply I have been sent by Basildon Council..no doubt 'automated' to every email they receive:

Basildon Council's 'Dale Farm' page

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 06:09 AM

As far as I can see Lizzie, very few of then are "travellers".
The old stock is dying off and the extended family has gone ..perhaps forever.
The Council has an obligation to house the homeless....as happened in our small town.

If you dont like to see the world as it really is, then there is no hope of changing society for the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 06:16 AM

"Please explain your comment Lizzie, is it not a bit early for you ?"


So, it would seem my comment blaming you for the FB fiasco has hit a nerve?

Well, if it is not you, now you know how it feels to be blamed for something you have not done, nor may ever even think of doing.

Very much like many good Travellers feel when they are thrown into the same pit as the minority of bad folks within their community, blamed for everything and hated by the majority, some of whom go onto messageboards to try to stir up hatred against them.

If you want me to withdraw my comment, then you withdraw ALL of your comments where you have, by your own free will, chosen to insinuate that ALL travellers are bad people who would rape old women, steal and create havoc.


And to your pathetic whine above, I would also ask...where is YOUR evidence that ALL Travellers are bad people?   Where is YOUR evidence that all Non-Travellers are good people?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 06:25 AM

Dear Lizzie, I know nothing about Facebook, other than it is a site for kids to exchange messages, I am not in anyway annoyed about it, it just made you look foolish yet again, if your remark is about the Guest post regarding your comment, take it up with whoever wrote it.

Sometime you will get something right.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 06:26 AM

"As far as I can see Lizzie, very few of then are "travellers"."

Really? How do YOU know this, ake?


"The old stock is dying off and the extended family has gone ..perhaps forever."

Really? Strange that. Gypsies, Travellers, more often than not have BIG families and family is everything to them. That's why they prefer to live together, rather than being scattered throughout the country on sink council estates.....


"The Council has an obligation to house the homeless....as happened in our small town."

Yes, it does. But, these people are NOT homeless! They love to live as those before them have lived, where they can hear the rain on the roof, sit outside around their fires, be close to nature, able to move around whenever they so choose, rather than tied down to one dwelling, one town, their whole lives long.

Why should they not be allowed to do that? Why should ANYONE not be allowed to do that?

"If you dont like to see the world as it really is, then there is no hope of changing society for the better. "

But I DO see the world as it really is, ake. I merely see it through different lenses to you. My vision gives me a picture of a world which is becoming more and more controlled, forcing people to live as those in power demand they live, not allowing them to live as they choose to live, with complete freedom.

The Right to Roam was fought for upon Kinder Scout, giving millions of us the right to walk free in so many beautiful places...

Perhaps it is time for the Gypsies to gather upon Kinder Scout to extend the Right to Roam to their way of life too.

Given a choice, I would LOVE to take to the open road..and live my life as I so chose, away from houses and bills and worries...living so close to nature with others who felt the same way.

Yes, there are problems within the traveller community, but they are exactly the same as those in the outside community too.

ALL people need to respect each other, respect the land, respect Mother Nature, for with that comes a very different way of life.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 06:34 AM

Bluey, I'll leave you to play games with yourself.

Better that you are the only one left in this thread really.

We'll all get on with something else.

Have a good day thinking up yet more insults to hurl around and putting on yet more hate filled messages and links. It obviously brings you much enjoyment.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 06:42 AM

Well Lizzie, two sides to every story, I feel it is important to tell everyone the true side.

Have a good one there.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Silas
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 06:42 AM

Might be worth pointing out that some of our most respected and revered folk performers, the Watersons, are partly from Irish Gypsy stock...

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 06:44 AM

And thanks for the 18 'friend' requests of your fake FB pages, Mark, but I won't be accepting one of 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 08:06 AM

They're a laugh those fake pages, aren't they? Click through a few links and you begin to see real degeneracy staring out of so many of the photographs.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Musket
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 09:12 AM

Thats the problem with looking at a thread after forgetting it was still drifting on.

Jim Carroll reckons I'm racist, although for the life of me, I am pissing myself laughing at that, (or would do if I cared about his opinion. Sad really, because his knowledge of the folk song tradition is at least worth reading, even if you don't agree with some of it.)

I'm not racist Jim. Pointing out that travellers are all sorts of people and not some indigenous single community is not being racist, its pointing out a fact. Likewise, saying I have little sympathy with those who consume from society but never contribute is not pointing out my being racist, its an example of being sensible and rational. Tony Benn said he likes it when people tell him they never vote. He says that means he never has to listen to and take on their views. Likewise, if people pay their taxes, send their kids to school, clear up after themselves, keep out of trouble with the police, then they have my support when the system works against them. Until then, they don't exist by their own choice and residents expect their council to do what is needed to protect those who do. If everybody else has to abide by planning laws, then so do travellers. Just having the tacit support of dreamers, romanticists and armchair soft touches does not make your cause just.

In the meantime, Rumpole of the Volvo states that it should be compulsory to read The Guardian. I think I'll stick to The Beano and Viz if its alright with you.

Ok, that's it. Reel me in. Life can be so surreal at times. Luckily, all the buildings on my property have planning permission and I pay my way and contribute, so not expecting the council knocking on my door. That's OK then.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 11:41 AM

Well, Mither, you seem to contradict yourself.

First, if travellers are not a single community ("indigenous" is not I think an apt word) then you cannot with any justification categorise them (ie all of them) as "those who consume from society but never contribute".

Second, if you stick to Viz and the Beano then you will never acquire the knowledge or rationality properly to comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 12:24 PM

It is not often we get the chance to deliver some good news, well I am glad to report that Lawyers for the Pikeys have failed in a last-ditch attempt to prevent the eviction of Pikeys from the UK's largest unauthorised traveller site.

Now you will Sh 1 t yourself laughing at a stroke they tried to pull, They had applied for a temporary injunction to stop Basildon Borough Council evicting the families from Dale Farm in Essex because 72-year-old Mary Flynn suffers breathing problems and uses an nebuliser ! "Yes me lord, Mary can't get a breath, there are only nebuliers on Dale Farm."

The High Court in London instantly dismissed the application and now justice will be done. I kind of restores your faith in the British justice system.

Full story here, great comments too.



http://uk.news.yahoo.com/bid-stop-traveller-eviction-134600837.html

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Musket
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 12:24 PM

If I stick to listening to advice from you, I'll never acquire the knowledge or rationality either... Viz or Bridge? Your Honour, I have chosen my defence team!

Neither will Mither for that matter.

Yes I can categorise them. Indigenous is an apt term as well. Nobody answers for where his father was born, just for where he was born. Come to think about it, I did say travellers were NOT some single indigenous community. My fault for thinking you read further than the name of the person who posted before making your mind up about their contribution.

My comments are valid. My opinion is mine and if some of it doesn't fall into your mould, don't make the mental leap, as Jim Carroll has, that therefore I am on the opposite pole. That's the problem with extreme view merchants like yourself, you are incapable of debating with someone who sits somewhere in the middle on most subjects.   As I am describing the vast majority of people, you must be getting rather lonely. Never mind mate, you always have yourself to play with.

Anyway, enough for tonight. Got to tune up the old guitar and see if I can remember the words to Freeborn Man. Might sing it at the local club tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 01:00 PM

Just to put this racist sewage in context - yes, to too Ian - hate to ne the bearer of bad news.
This is the legally accepted definition of Travellers (sorry Bluesy Pikeys) from this mornings Times.
Isn't it noticable how nothing changes?
Jim Carroll

1,000 years of prejudice, hatred and distrust

There are few tales that begin in the Indian sub-continent and Irish marshlands during the first millennium after the birth of Christ and reach Basildon in Essex 1,000 years later.
In between there are travels through eastern Europe, Irish famines and Nazi killing camps. Then there are the prejudices, the disputes and the clashing of communities. The history of the 300,000-strong travelling communities, now encamped on 8,000-plus pitches in England, is complex.
First, there are the groupings: the Roma, who are believed to have emerged from Asia 1,000 years ago and to have split into the Romany of western Europe, the Domari of the Middle East and Eastern Europe and the Lomavren of Central Europe.
The Irish Travellers refer to themselves as Pavees and share a common language, Shelta. A study earlier this year provided DNA evidence that it is a distinct ethnic minority, which separated from the settled Irish community between 1,000 and 2,000 years ago. Previously, it was believed that they were landowners who took to the road during the Great Famine. In 2000, they were ruled to be a distinct ethnic group, while Gypsies gained this status in 1976.
Then there are the New Age travellers whose crusty roots lie in the hippy culture of the mid-20th century. One can also throw in a sprinkling of Scottish Travellers, with their own musical and linguistic traditions dating back to the 12th century, and the Travelling Showpeople who have entertained generations with their fairgrounds and circuses.
Gypsies were one of the ethnic groups targeted by the Nazis. At least 250,000 were killed in the Holocaust.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: BTNG
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 01:13 PM

To: GUEST,Bluesman

Yahoo is not exactly what one might call a reliable source of information, and the comments...well I was wondering whether that sort are a part of your family. The bad to non-existent grammatical traits between you and them are remarkably similar

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 01:15 PM

You know, for such 'scum', Bluesman, there was one very dignified lady who sought to help them...

Strange that, huh?

Vanessa Redgrave trying to help



And now, the Baliff Bullies will move in and create an entirely new generation of Travellers who'll hate authority their whole lives long, when those little children see what those men will do to the only homes they've ever known...

What a crying shame that so many people are now going to be hurt....

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 01:47 PM

Mither "Indigenous peoples, or Natives, are ethnic groups who are native to a land or region, especially before the arrival and intrusion of a foreign and possibly dominating culture". Travellers travel (or at least they did when there was still somewhere to which to travel. Therefore while they may be a congeries of ethnic groups, or core ethnic groups with "felloe travellers" (feeble pun intended) they cannot by definition be indigenous.

Since with one breath you admit that "they" are not all the same it is irrational to go on to say that they are.

Do you understand now?

And if you want to defend Viz or the Beano as your chosen sources of information (to the exclusion of the usually rational and informed, even if you disagree with it's slant, Guardian) perhaps you would indicate what can be learned from them - except in some cases, prejudice.

In general, you seem to be on the side of the bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 01:53 PM

"Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts as a last resource pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and happy to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority."

— Arthur Schopenhauer

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 01:58 PM

Fred,
"It wouldn't take a brain the size of Einstein's to work out which Keith."

Please clarify Fred.
If you mean me, you are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Musket
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 02:11 PM

I'm on the side of Sheffield Wednesday. Always have been, always will be.

Naw, can't be on the side of bigots. To use your weird logic; if you get agitated when bankers and Tory supporters flout the law, you are a bigot for having a pop at them.

People can be seen to be the same in terms of their actions, even if their heritage (now that's a better term?) is somewhat different. Travellers? Well, next week I am off in my caravan for a festival or two, so other than nicking lead off roofs, having my dog chained up barking all day and getting pissed and knifing someone, I too will fit the stereotype you seem to be rallying against.

Biffo the Bear teaches me equality and diversity. Dennis The Menace shows us that law breakers can be loved too, although when I last read it (circa 1973) law breakers saw their Dad's slipper.

Sid the Sexist is an excellent example of why not to listen to bar room barristers. Buster Gonads could have his unfeasibly large testicles reduced on The NHS, but he isn't aware, so that teaches us that health inequality is rife in England, or at least in Fulchester. Eight Ace is a Barnsley lad, showing Viz ticks the inclusiveness box. Biffa Bacon is Dennis The Menace but with attitude. The Fat Slags are more than a comic strip, they teach us how to go drinking in Doncaster. Roger Mellie is a fine example to today's would be celebrities. Go Roger! Real Ale Bores seem somewhat familiar and Student Grant reminds me to give my lad a ring. Modern Parents were lifted from the threads of Mudcat and Mr Logic reminds me a solicitor somewhere down south. Millie Tant has an account on Mudcat as well if memory serves me well?

Don't preach inclusiveness and defending people who are different. Anybody whose political opinions don't coincide with yours is subject to the most obnoxious bigotry, and all from you wonderful keyboard, which may or not be attached to your brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 02:34 PM

Sorry Keith,

The piece of human detritus who at moment is calling himself Bluesman has been know to sign his postings Keith. I realised who it was and that I'd jumped to the wrong conclusion shortly after I posted my reply.

We clearly take opposing stances where travellers are concerned, and probably a lot of other issues besides. But I wouldn't place you, or any other 'catter I know of in the same class as that scumbag.

Chers,

Fred.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 02:42 PM

Thanks Fred.
I have never posted on the subject of Travellers.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 03:42 PM

An expression that comes from the playground where one kid, (the one who owns the soccer ball), doesn't get his way in the game he gets mad and punishes those who are unwilling to accept his mandate.

He does this by taking his ball and going home thus ending the game and any fun the participants were having.

The expression "I'm going to take my ball and go home" when directed at an individual is used to illustrate the individual's immaturity when that person can't get his way and no longer wants to be a participant. Similar to someone who huffs and blows and walks off into the sunset because he was scolded.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 03:57 PM

It's somewhat unedifying to see a bunch of supposedly sensible residents of a democratic country which is governed by consensus and subject to "Rule of Law", suddenly faced with a conflict of interest, decide to completely ignore the legal position.

Travellers, Landowners, or Caravan Park Proprietors?........Totally irrelevant!!

Planning laws apply to all, irrespective of wealth, ethnicity, or intentions.

Half the site is legal, with proper permissions and therefore untouchable.

The other half is not!

It is really that simple.........They, either through ignorance, or through disrespect of law, bought the wrong piece of land.

I have a great deal of sympathy for them, but what would you say to the next group who decide to set up in a beauty spot, once having established a precedent for ignoring laws and regulations.

It doesn't matter who, or what, they are. The laws of this country apply to everybody equally (waits for the inevitable irrelevancies about bankers, Tories, MPs etc. ad nauseam) and that must, I'm afraid, be so for travellers too, or we can just chuck it in and have a free-for-all.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: BTNG
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 04:21 PM

I believe , GUEST,Bluesman, that you are both a liar and a racist, it's that simple, put into terms even you can understand

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 04:32 PM

The land was a scrap dump before they bought it. Now it's homes to many people with gardens etc....so why were the previous owners allowed to have a scrap dump on green belt land?

Tonight, the elderly woman who's lived in her home on Dale Farm for 10 years will spend possibly her last night there.

Bluesman speaks of how another elderly lady, who was raped by a traveller would ever recover, when he tried so hard to convince himself that only Travellers do these deeds and no-one else..

Well, tell me, how will this old lady ever recover, likewise?

Yes, her body has not been invaded, she has not been physically raped etc..but in a few days time, maybe even tomorrow, she is going to stand and watch as they pull her lovely little home to pieces. She had a few bags packed in the corner of her lounge when on TV earlier this evening. Her young grand-daughter who has never known her Granny to be in any other house sat there, looking desolate...

The old lady said it will probably kill her, shorten her life, for all her family are on that site...and now, all the love and hard work she's put in will be laid to waste, by men who probably 'hate' travellers and enjoy doing the work they do, otherwise they'd not do it.

She too will be scarred for life, by people who more than likely hate her 'ilk'.

If that makes Bluesman feel jubilant, then all I can say is that he is as bad as the man who raped the old lady, whom he spoke of earlier, for both enjoy seeing others in pain, it would seem, both feel 'they had it coming to them' and 'they got what they deserve'

ALL that had to be done here was for compromise to be reached and many of the buildings granted planning permission.

What a sad country I live in.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 04:33 PM

AFAIK, Don, it is the whole site that is under attack, not just the half without planning permission.

The legal system set up about travellers does not work because emanations of the state have not fulfilled their obligations. Thus the travellers are damned if they stay and damned if they go. I thought I had covered that above.

What we see on this thread from a very limited number of proponents is an assertion that all travellers should be outcasts and outlaws. That is uncivilised (and bigoted).

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 04:39 PM

I think it's only one half of the site, Richard. So they said on The One Show earlier this evening.

There was also a local resident interviewed who said how kind and polite the Travellers were and how sorry he felt for them...

They're not going to go down easily, that's for sure...They're going to have the road blocked etc...and will put up a fight...

Once the baliffs have moved in, razed all dwellings to the ground, dug up all the concrete roads etc, the land will still belong to the travellers who legally own it, but it will have been decimated and a total wreck left in the place where once homes stood and children played...


This will cost Basildon Council TEN MILLION POUNDS to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 04:40 PM

I wrote yesterday to the Council asking how many exceptions they have made over the years to the green belt zoning laws. I have yet to hear back. When I do I will let y'all know.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 06:05 PM

I'm not sure there are actually any 'green belt' laws, as such, just guidelines:

"The Government sets out its policies and principles towards the green belts defined by local authorities in England and Wales in Planning Policy Guidance Note 2: Green Belts. Local Councils are strongly urged to follow PPG2's detailed advice when considering whether to permit additional development in the green belt, or to assent to new uses being made of existing premises. In the green belt there is a general presumption against inappropriate development, unless very special circumstances can be demonstrated to show that the benefits of the development will outweigh the harm caused to the green belt. PPG2 also sets out a number of examples of what would constitute appropriate or inappropriate development in the green belt."

Councils appear to make it up as they go along, and 'green belt' is a term used most often by estate agents.

The Council in question is quite capable of letting the buildings remain, but in all likelihood are under pressure (real, implied or anticipated) from elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 06:08 PM

""What we see on this thread from a very limited number of proponents is an assertion that all travellers should be outcasts and outlaws. That is uncivilised (and bigoted).""

On this we are in complete agreement, but I can't quite see the Dale Farm situation in quite the way you describe.

There was no indication on TV news that the legal half was under threat, and I can't see any way (or any reason) for the Council to attack it, without laying itself open to damages suits which would in all probability provide sufficient funds to legally re-home the whole community on a better site at Council Tax payers' expense.

Nonetheless, precedents established by compromising the law are IMO intrinsically dangerous and better avoided. As a lawyer, I should have expected that this would be a viewpoint you would consider of merit.

Knowing that my repertoire includes my version of Ken(Romany Man)'s poem "Marks in the Grass", Ralph McTell's "Hard to be the Gypsy", and others in the same vein, you know that I share nothing of the bigotted opinions expressed by others, and am concerned only with legalities.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 03:25 AM

Perhaps, Don, I am wrong on this part but I thought that the council was planning to evacuate the whole site, then determine what was lawful development and what not, destroy what was not, and then permit the owners' return so that they could continue to use the lawful parts. I believe that was expected to be in about two years - and I have heard no sensible suggestions where the travellers go in the meantime.

On the planning front, as far as I know the site was a scrapyard before the travellers bought it, so there might well have been a case that the development was beneficial, but I cannot now remember whether that avenue was pursued (it could have gone to the secretary of state, and 10 years ago there could have been a policy argument about the need for such sites pending the observance (which never happened) by councils of their obligations to provide official sites). Retrospective applications are often tricky - and as is often said "Hard cases make bad law".

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 03:48 AM

"The laws of this country apply to everybody equally "
No, they most certainly do not - where would you find notices on shops, pubs, hotels saying "no blacks, Asians, Catholics, Protestants, Brits, Irish......" yet "no Travallers served here" is one of the most common signs to be found all over Britain. We even used a photograph of one saying "Travellers served by appointment only" from an East London pub, for the booklet of our Travellers CD.
Travellers have no protection whatever under the law as it is administered - when I found out from a workmate that there was a planned arson attack on a site on Streatham Common the police used it as an excuse to search the site for stolen goods (as with a previous example I gave, they found none) - the planners of the attack, whose names I had passed on, were not even questioned.
It seems we all need protecting from corrupt law enforcers (particularly our "institutionally racist police") as much as we do from burglars and muggers, and access to law and justice depends on your social status and financial circumstances more than your rights as a human being, but Travellers in particular are open to being terrorised by bigoted residents and corrupt policemen demanding bribes with no legal protection whatever (how would you like a 'midnight visit' from some of the posters on this thread).
The situation with the (less than) half of those residents of Dale Farm without planning permission is a prime example of even the existing laws not being sufficient to protect those it is meant to serve.
Seeing that those to be evicted will be driven to camp illegally anyway (unless they commit mass suicide - which would, no doubt please our resident racists here no end), it depends on which is the lesser evil - allowing them to stay on a site that was formerly a scrap yard or forcing them to break the law by camping on illegal sites - logic and simple humanity points to the former.
As it has been announced that no evictions will take place until some time next month this will take it well into the time when Travellers usually attempt to find a winter stopping place to prepare for the bad weather.
Up to the repeal of the Caravan and Camping Act by John Major's Government, councils would be obliged by law to provide stopping places; inadequate as it was, that safety-net has been removed and there are many thousands of men, women and children in Britain forced by their very existance to break the law by camping illegally - that is the "law" which applies "to everybody equally" - how spitefully inhuman does it get?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 04:09 AM

I have just read a shocking story in the local press regarding this illegal site, residents too scared to talk in public, people threatened, and village life ruined.

None of the residents would speak publicly to the reporters unless they got reassurances of anonymity as any have been threatened. Even the journalists spoke of their fear as they gathered at the site to report the removal of these rodents.


As one taxpaying resident of the area said, "ask yourself why are no Traveller men on Camera? what they hiding? most can be seen on your Rouge Traders programme & Crime watch they have no fear of the Police ask the Police Air Helicopter for their Air Time Log and how it spends hours and hours over the site chasing the "so called innocent travellers" every year."

Another lady said, "They are not interested in becoming part of village life they want to use the camp as a no go one stop crime village where they can deal in stolen cars vans & lorries and high value goods, import dodgy settees in to the country with no fire retardant stuffed with illegal cigarettes, run the drugs in Basildon and surrounding areas."

A gentleman who lived in the area all his life made a good point "The Irish Government threw the majority out of Ireland for those reasons, the Travellers use the no fixed address to take all the government handouts they can then spend a bit of time visiting relations in Ireland to collect the same of the Irish Government thus collecting two lots of benefits."


The lady who runs the village shop has major issues with the Pikey kids shop lifting. She was shaking with fear when the reporter spoke to her. She was also threatened by Pikey scum on Monday not to speak to the press, she said "They threatened to strip me, and said the shop wasn't fireproof"

The village petrol station does a roaring trade in non duty red diesel which they run all their vans and cars on it and not to pay duty, The Village pub struggles to survive as people in the village and also outside visitors won't visit it as they are scared of by the travellers, they come into the bar and pick fights with the aged locals, on one occasion, a traveller woman, pulled her dress up and went to the toilet on the bar counter, yes she left a stinking load which the council had to remove.

The village Park is now a no go area, the kids don't play in it because they are bullied by traveller kids who hangout there selling drugs.

The Village School which before the vermin arrived had an excellent reputation has been destroyed as kids are forced to leave by bulling and village parents intimidated by traveller parents, picking fights, stealing school computers and two DVD recorders.


A lady identified only as Pippa said, "We have no village life anymore the yearly village fete and events have all stopped as they was ruined by the travellers, they stole everything that wasn't nailed down, two young teenage travellers were offering sex for money at the last fete, that was the final straw, so we ended it right then and there".

We all have to pay tax and all have tax demands and receipts to prove it, What would happen if the inland revenue was to visit the site and ask them all for proof of earnings to pay for the Buildings Caravans 4x4 Cars and New Transit vans they pay nothing no water rates no poll tax they just take the pee out of society and we all stand for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Penny S.
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 05:36 AM

Source?

BTW, I've had to deal with having a car driven at me, my water supply interfered with, heavy banging in the night, access to my garage and communal garden made difficult, abusive letters, and having, eventually, to leave my home of 30 years, because of a couple of "respectable" gorgios with an unjustified sense of entitlement, who wanted to take money from other people without making contributions themselves.

And I've been ripped off by a rogue trader who is not, AFAIK, any sort of itinerant.

There are rubbish people in houses as well as in caravans.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 05:49 AM

So if they all changed their way of life tomorrow would it make discrimination any the less from non-gypsies, somehow I don't think so. There is a gypsy camp near where I live in North Bristol which fits in between the local shopping Mall and an airfield. The surrounding green is landscaped and doesn't look out of place at all infact the new Bovis housing development is more of an eyesore than the camp. The mobile homes are neat and well set out, no rubbish on view really quite tranquil in comparison to the city centre a few weeks ago. The gypsies are hardly ever seen except if there happens to be a wedding but very rare and certainly no fighting or raping as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 06:36 AM

There is not one verifyable incident described in your "shocking story", there are a few vague accusations - children nicking from shops - come on; you can do better than that, surely? That happens in virtually every shop adjacent to a school in Britain; how many signs have we all seen saying "only on schoolchild at a time"?
Your "shocking story" is little more than a collection of bigotted opinions - the miniscule actual claimed events you present could come from any housing estate, village, town or city, carried out by any local petty criminal in any country in the western world.
Perhaps you would like the to hear about one that appears my national paper this morning about care-home workers who have been robbing elderly residents, or the one that appeared some time ago about elderly people being physically beaten or forced into freezing cold baths by employees at the same type of institutions, or the story of the man who broke into a house and raped a 70-odd year old woman, or the octogenarian farmer who who was beaten to death in his home for the miniscule amount of money he had in the house.
Have just heard of a priest in Australia who confesed to fellow priests that he raped children on 1,500 occasion - and was told to go home and pray for forgiveness (paedophelia and rape are extremely rare among the Travelling community BTW).
You wear your racism as if it were a medal - which is fine by me; it's always helpful to know where the dog has shat before you put your foot down - it's a little like your having a Swastika tattooed on your forehead.
People like you are rather pathetic caricatures, (Charlie Chaplin once did a great peice of work on one of you in his 'The Great Dictator) You really wouldn't be worth putting finger to keyboard for if it weren't for the malignant effect you might have on the not-too-bright among us.
Ian Mather, on the other hand, and those like him, who only have the bottle to stand in the shadows egging the thugs on; they really do represent racism in Britain today.
In the meantime - keep up the good work - both of you; it's always pleasurable to watch somebody who enjoys his little hobby!.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Grendel's Dad
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 07:38 AM

Hang on Jim. How has Bluesman managed to get hold of a "shocking story in the local press"? He lives forty seven miles away in sunny Redhill, so he's going to be outside the circulation area of Basildon local newspapers.

Well ok, perhaps he hopped on his classic motorcycle, in between hunting off the land and praying to pagan gods, went over to the Dale Farm neighbourhood and bought a copy. Note though that he does not say which newspaper it came from. Note also, that in all his diatribes on this subject, he never once mentions any personal knowledge of the local situation.

What's more, I'd have thought that particular tissue of lies and innuendo would be a bit ripe even for the Daily Mail. But for a local paper which has this confrontation slap bang on its own doorstep - no chance.

Let's get real. If these "pikeys", as Bluesman calls them, are as bad as he makes out, the paper in question would be too terrified to print anything like that, for fear they'd find their office burned out.

My guess, and I'll happily withdraw it if he can provide a link to the on-line version of the article, is that Bluesman has made this whole shebangle up himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 07:48 AM

Well, that's on the assumption that White Man is the one who plays the squeezebox for Dick Tiffin. White Man claims to be blues player Perry Foster from WR2 4ND.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 07:50 AM

It amazes me how some people are unaware that you can read newspapers online these days. Link provided as always.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 07:54 AM

"Let's get real. If these "pikeys", as Bluesman calls them, are as bad as he makes out,"
Very true. And I wonder why, if they are as bad and as threatening as he suggests, the local filth (I take it, as he is happy to use racist terms like "pikey he can have no possible objection to my using one of the most popular and widespread nicknames for the police in Britain) haven't banged them up years ago - perhaps the locals aren't paying big eough bribes?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Grendel's Dad
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 07:59 AM

Bluesman. I'm well aware that you can read newspapers on-line. Here's the last sentence of my previous posting.

"My guess, and I'll happily withdraw it if he can provide a link to the on-line version of the article, is that Bluesman has made this whole shebangle up himself."

It amazes me how many people can't read Mudcat postings, or provide a link when requested. yeahh I know. Niether the article nor the link exist anywhere outside of Bluesman's head.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 09:02 AM

I would be interested to see what you sent me. If you can give me a date it might assist - I do have pretty well all my old pst files and can check. My email address never has been that hard to find and I can pick up from that email address if you re-send to refresh my memory. I can't offhand think what recording of Nye Bevan I might have been looking for and maybe you can remind me.

I don't remember meeting a racist blues-player. I am sure the inherent irony would have tickled me. I can place a chap who looked a bit like Perry Foster at a club in a hotel just outside Nottingham, and another at a club in Beeston also near Nottingham, but it is rare indeed for me to be anywhere near Stourbridge, and I don't habitually seek out blues players to watch, at least not since I was about 20 and not a lot.

So at the moment I am unconvinced. Your email style is so like that of the other person alluded to, as is your curious versioning of the words of Max, Joe, and other mudcat dignitaries. It might help clarifying if you produced a link to the alleged words of Max on the topic of identity. I know where he suggests that the anonymity of the internet may be a boon, but I do not remember him saying that it ought to be obligatory.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 09:20 AM

Incidentally, there appears to be only one posting on the mudcat about "Nye Bevan" and only one about "Anerin Bevan" according to Mr Google, and neither relates.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 09:38 AM

did you try Aneurin Bevan?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: BTNG
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 10:16 AM

GUEST,Bluesman demands respect from others and yet is unwilling to give respect to others. You want respect GUEST,Bluesman ? Earn it, don't demand it!!

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 11:26 AM

Bluesman, this will upset you, a LOT.

I make NO apologies for this.


To everyone else, here Vanessa speaks the truth about the residents of Dale Farm and what they were trying to sort out with the Council, in a peaceful and cost free way.

Sadly, the judges of whom Vanessa speaks so supportively, let her down and everyone else involved too.

Vanessa Reggrave talking most eloquently about the Dale Farm Residents

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 11:29 AM

And, when I rang Basildon Council yesterday to talk to them about this, try to get them to see sense too, they told me they would be doing all in their power to ensure everything was carried out as 'humanely' (their word) as possible.

I hope they remember that.


This morning on the news it was being said that many residents felt they'd rather burn their houses down, than see them razed to the ground by bulldozers.

And Bruce, thank you very much for taking the trouble and the care to write to Basildon Council. You are one of The Good Men & True, for whom I have a great deal of respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 11:32 AM

BBC News update on the situation, as of 2 hours ago

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 11:45 AM

OK, watch these, then weep for those in Dale Farm, especially the children who will, no doubt, witness similar scenes to these, I'd imagine.


Meadowlands Eviction - The Night Before 2004 - Part 1 Youtube)

Meadowlands Eviction Part 2 - The Day of Eviction - Youtube

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 12:24 PM

Re BBC News update on the situation, as of 2 hours ago.

Even in the worst of situations there is always some tiny crumb of hope. See those two protesters holding a banner that reads "No Pasaran"? For those who don't know, that was the watchword of the Spanish anti-fascists and the International Brigade when they fought against Franco. It means "They Shall Not Pass, and it has become the watchword for anti-fascists everywhere.

One day we will win the battle, not just for Dalefarm, but for all the downtrodden and underpriveliged peoples of this world.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 12:32 PM

BTNG, where did I ever "Demand respect" lol, I could not give a toss what you or anyone here thinks of me. As for the words of Vanessa, Christ, an aged crackpot who cannot accept her years, have you seen her lately ? looks more like a Walnut Whip, clearly a problem there with the drink. It is her chance to get a little limelight in the evening of her life, wait and see, she will do a televison interview some evening and it will be like watching Oliver Reed or George Best.

I repeat, I am here to tell everyone the true facts about what is happening regarding this case, two sides to every story, mine happens to be based on solid fact, not misguided emotions.

As to name calling, names of people I never heard of, this site that site, it all means little to me. People want to know the true facts about Dale Farm and I am only too willing to inform them.

What is the problem with that ?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 12:48 PM

It looks like a lot of Mudcatters are again feeding a troll. He gets a kick every time one of you addresses him and argues the conversation as he has framed it. We've seen this kind of behavior before; the best thing you can do is to move along to other threads and let him squat here in the mess he is spewing. IMHO.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 12:51 PM

Thank you Silly River Sage. If only wish they would see the reality of this situation and accept it and move on. Sound advice, again thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 01:25 PM

Good spot Manitas, but yes.

I await the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 01:28 PM

STILLY River Sage.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 01:49 PM

As I said - and a sociopath to boot. "Move along, there's nothing to see here."

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: BTNG
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 02:55 PM

nothing being the operative word

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 03:28 PM

"One day we will win the battle, not just for Dalefarm, but for all the downtrodden and underpriveliged peoples of this world."

Hmmm......I used to say that a lot......when I was about 16.

As the song says..... "growin' up is soooo hard to do".

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: BTNG
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 06:16 PM

speaking of nothing...hello there akey baby!! LOL LOL
now run along little boy

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 02:16 AM

"People want to know the true facts about Dale Farm and I am only too willing to inform them."
You have said nothing here of Dale Farm - instead you have used this thread throughout to launch blatent racist attacks on Travellers, and you have never denied the obvious - that you are a racist who is prepared to try and make the lives of others, men, women and children, irrespective of age, miserable and threatened with your open attacks on a whole community.
I was reprimanded not so long ago on his forum for described as racist, somebody who had accused an entire racial/social group in Britain of crimes against children, claiming that it was a flaw in their culture which made them what they were.
I'm reasonably comfortable with the idea that racists like yourself coming clean and show themselves up for what they are - as long as there is no danger of their being taken seriously enough to instil their own hatred into others.
I am a little curious about the policy of the Mudcat administrators on racism - are they really happy to allow this forum to be used as a racist platform?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Musket
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 03:25 AM

Perhaps Bridge can help out here, him being of the legal ilk..

In order to be racist, do you have to refer to a race?

I must admit, I am rather agitated by the polarised positions here. If you are misty eyed about people who don't give a damn about you, then anybody who points out that travellers can be a menace is a racist bigot. Not helpful, not true and serves to entrench positions.

It seems that anybody who feels the law of the land has to be applied equally is for some weird reason in league with this bluesman character. If you see me quoting from the Daily Mail, remember to bring me some mashed banana to eat, assuming I can feed myself... You do not have to rant like Bluesman, you don't have to advocate gas chambers and you don't have to be generally repugnant in order to just point out;

You don't have planning permission, so the lot comes down. If it didn't, I would feel justified in doing what the hell I wanted to my property, and if that meant building a brick wall so my neighbour can't get any light through their window? Well, according to many here, all I have to do is point out that I have a caravan and people will ring the council asking them to stop oppressing me.

Laws are applied equally, police are not the filth. Jim Carroll chooses not to live under UK law so perhaps he could stop preaching how planning laws should work. (Mind you, although this may fuel his anger, I note that many holiday camp sites do not allow transit vans and certainly don't allow Hobby caravans on their site. Instead of crying foul, perhaps it would be best to think why small businesses are turning down income?)

Dale Farm is a cross for misguided idiots to cling to, and the travellers are enjoying every minute of it. Vanessa Redgrave joining in just about proves my point. "It must be a just cause because someone with offshore accounts and a tax haven home address says so."

Council tax payers see their representatives eventually doing their duty and the inquest must be how this was allowed to get to such proportions in the first place rather than celebrating getting off their arses now.

This isn't about Romany, isn't about Irish tinkers, isn't about recent converts to the fringes of society and the other ingredients of the term "traveller." This is about planning rules. Nothing more, nothing less.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 04:54 AM

Jim Carroll referred to, "somebody who had accused an entire racial/social group in Britain of crimes against children, claiming that it was a flaw in their culture which made them what they were."

For the record, a demographic group WAS massively over-represented in a form of abuse.
The suggestion that it was because of repressive courting and marriage practices, including unhappy arranged cousin marriages, came from people with more knowledge of the issue than Jim or me, and included prominent anti-racists from within that culture well known for defending that culture against bigotry and discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 05:12 AM

"In order to be racist, do you have to refer to a race?"
The Times article from an earlier posting .
"A study earlier this year provided DNA evidence that it is a distinct ethnic minority, which separated from the settled Irish community between 1,000 and 2,000 years ago."
Are you disputing these findings; if not, the Irish Travellers Bluesman has consistently made the target for his vitriol are an identified racial group.
"isn't about Irish tinkers"
Bluesman has specifically targeted "thieving Irish scum Pikeys".
As I said, he has never denied being a racist - are you saying he isn't?
In fact, he has in no way defended or attempted to prove or qualify any of his statements, he has simply gone on attacking a specific racial group.
"It seems that anybody who feels the law of the land has to be applied equally"
Just as you have ignored the anomolies in the law which have been pointed out to you, you continue to ignore an action which will force Travellers to unavoidably continue breaking the law, putting themselves in danger and the settled community at a greater inconvenience.
Where do you think they should go - detainment camps until it can be decided what can be done with them - isn't that wat hapened in pre-war Germany?
And by the way, I am a British citizen, no matter where I choose to live; I am perfectly to comment on events anywhere in the world - Nazi Germany, former Yugoslavia, Serbia, Libya, Syria.... or even my birthlace, Britain - is that a right you would deny those of us who no longr live there. As limited as it may be, my knowledge and experience of Travellers in Britain and their treatmet at the hands of British racists appears to exceed yours by over three decades.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Silas
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 05:15 AM

Keith, I do hope you and Juim are not going to resurface that never-ending argument on this thread...

Please - give us a break.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 05:17 AM

I see the so called "travellers" have now employed a diplomatic team made up of Irish "travellers" to the site in the hope the situation can be resolved.

This is probably one of the most dignified interviews "travellers" have ever given to the media.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQzYnbljZ9Y

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 06:00 AM

The nearest legal definition would be from the Equality Act. It is readily available but although it was enacted to harmonise a quantity of earlier it is still not wholly internally consistent - for example "sexual orientation" is defined in terms applicable only to sexual preference for human gender/sex but does not apply to fetishism or bestiality.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 06:39 AM

Silas, I was as surprised and dismayed as you that Jim chose to rake that over again here, but his false assertion needed to be rebutted and I somehow knew it would not come from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 06:46 AM

Jim why is it so important to you that you be allowed to label people "racist" on this forum.
Why can you not just expose weaknesses and flaws in members' arguments?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Silas
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 06:58 AM

Keith, if you allow this thread to develop the way you seem to want it to we may as well all go home, I know that you and Jim have issues, but leave us all out of it eh? Use the PM's if you need to or even start another thread, but please don't destroy this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 07:05 AM

Stating fact does not make anyone a racist. It makes them a realist. And I would be remiss not to expose the truth about these scum some nutjobs on here like to defend as caring people who do not rape,steal and ruin people's lives. Why is it old hippies and the rejected in life love to defend the darker side of society.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 07:13 AM

You boil the ocean.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Silas
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 07:15 AM

Bluesman, you have already established yourself as a racist. I respect that, and I commend your courage in being so overt about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 07:18 AM

I have no intention of pursuing old agendas here Silas.
Why do you only address your concerns to me?
Did it not register with you that it was Jim, not me, who dredged it up?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 07:27 AM

His courage?

Exemplified how may I ask?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Musket
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 07:28 AM

Bridge, thanks for that snippet.

No, really.

Seriously.

Your take on the inconsistency of the Equality Act is one I will use. Working (interfering?) in regulation, it is something our legal people ensure we take into account and have me putting up with lots and lots of training. I reckon I can shut them up for at least ten minutes by throwing that one in the pot.

Can't wait.

(If you have any left field (where else?) snippets on The Mental Capacity Act I can confuse the buggers with those too....)

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 07:30 AM

Silas - yes - you have your break.
General point to all - no more circulat=r arguments with K***.
On this thread blatent racism has been substituted for argument - Bluesman has in no way attempted to put up an argumet to back up his racist attacks on "Irish Pikey scum" and has ignored all arguments put up in opposition to to his diatribes against what are officially recognised ethnic groups. He hasn't really taken part in the discussion about Dale Farm, but has used this thread as a platform for his racism.
I hope this answers any question as to whether this is a case of racism or not - Bluesman seems to have no problem with the description, indeed, he seems to draw a degree of pleasure and pride from it - probably the greatest amount of attention he's had for a long time!
Attacks against Travellers is a long-term form of racist abuse in these islands, from Irish police being allowed to force the closure of bars because "there are strange Travellers in town", to British publicans, hotel owners and shopkeepers being able to refuse them service because of their race.
Travellers are openly perecuted wherever they go and, far from being protected by law, they are very much in need of protection from corruptly dishonest law-enforcers.
That's why it's worth making the point about the racist attitude towards Travellers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Grendel's Dad
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 07:34 AM

Bluesman. Throughout this entire debate, and in all your tirades against so called "pikeys" you have yet to produce one single verifiable fact. Instead you have flooded this site with baseless accusations and innuendo.

You have attacked and maligned some of my fellow members of the human race in language which you would not have dared to use about any other social minority.

Regarding your fabricated "extract" from the local press, the one where you claim a traveller woman relieved herslf on a bar counter (just as if!), you have have two choices.

1. Name the paper concerned and tell us the link to this story you claim to quote from or,

2. Admit that you are lying and shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 07:57 AM

Pierre Burton--author of about fifty books to do with Canadian history--had the following to say:



Racism is a refuge for the ignorant. It seeks to divide and to destroy. It is the enemy of freedom, and deserves to be met head-on and stamped out.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Musket
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 08:14 AM

Just read Jim Carroll's breakdown and context stripping analysis of one of my earlier posts.

Hadn't done it before now as I had some important paint I needed to watch dry.

Sorry, but your comments don't help your cause here.

You say that DNA evidence etc etc. Most new age travellers have perhaps had a pint or two of Guinness and have watched The Commitments. Very few are the beloved tinkers of romantic song. Even less are the Eastern European swarthy dagger in mouth whilst dancing in James Bond films gypsies. Doesn't make Bluesman's awful words any better, but to say I have to see them as one ethnic group or agree with bluesman is a bit silly...

I say planning laws have to be administered and you rattle on about pre war Germany.

On this, you have lost your credibility to be able to engage in debate. If you are not able to see beyond a radio ballad made fifty years ago about a travelling way of life, then this is perhaps not the thread for you to contribute to. (But please continue, not up to me to tell you what to do.) This is about local residents having the right to ensure their council upholds their rights and enforce planning laws. It isn't in the interest of fat cats, makers of gas chambers or any other silly nonsense; it is in the interest of local people. No more, no less.

Yes, you are British. You have also opted not to reside here, so a bit less preaching about who has to put up with what in our communities, if its alright with you.

Tell you what, try having a game of Top Trumps. Lots of songs (and a radio ballad) about freeborn men of the travelling people, and there are also lots of songs (and a radio ballad) about mining. When there was a camp set up on Manton Miners Welfare field, many moons ago, the annual sports day looked like being cancelled. A few of my more proactive colleagues knocked on a few caravan doors one evening and asked if they would mind awfully buggering off the next day at 8.00am sharp.

They did.

So... which community celebrated in song would you reserve your sympathy for? Cheery ruddy faced diddys or equally community minded pit moggies?

Difficult I know. Romantic visions sometimes make top trumps difficult to play....

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Silas
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 08:24 AM

"Racism is a refuge for the ignorant. It seeks to divide and to destroy. It is the enemy of freedom, and deserves to be met head-on and stamped out. "

Quite right of course, however, you can't 'Stamp out' racism, it don't work like that, you have to try to educate people, and some people, well...

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 08:49 AM

"you can't 'Stamp out' racism"
No you can't, but you can neutralise its effects.
Britain has laws against the incitement to race hatred, which is exactly what is happeng here.
Those laws do not apparently apply to the Travelling communities.
"You say that DNA evidence etc etc."
No I don't, society does - it's a recognised definition.
The rest of your posting says nothing and in no way attempts to explain yours or Bluesman's racism - or tell us of your own "adventures among the Travelling People.
Do I have it correct - now that I am no longer a resident in the UK I have no right to comment on what happens there - or Libya, or Syria, or Israel.
They really should make a sit-com about Little Englanders - oh, there is one, isn't there?
I really do suggest you learn about Travellers before you decide to make them the victims of your bigotry (or let somebody do it on your behalf).
By the way Bluesman - did you know that as recently as a month or so ago the weapons being used against the Libyan rebels had been supplied by Britain - after the present hostilities had commenced.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 08:51 AM

No, I can't make much sense of the Mental Capacity Act either, and as for the presumption of validity in contracts with those without contractual capacity my mind boggles.

One of the other problems in the Equality Act is Section 9. Race does not extend to all communities sharing characteristics, still less to those sharing only some characteristics, and so far although the section is drafted to be able to be extended to cover caste, it has not been so extended.

So for this purpose, genetic Pavee are a race, genetic Roma are a race, but new age travellers are not and if a new age traveller weds one of the others what thier offspring are baffles me.

So far Rastafarianism has been denied the status of a religion, too.


White Man jumped a bit when I turned up Perry Foster's postcode though, didn't he? The other shoe has not yet dropped.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 08:56 AM

Richard, thanks for informing the Fred's about the Mental Capacity Act.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 09:44 AM

Jim, UK race hatred laws do apply to Irish Travellers
Independent 30th July 2000.
Irish travellers were granted legal protection under the Race Relations Act in a landmark court judgment yesterday.

The Commission for Racial Equality said the judgment on the travellers, who had been denied the protection given to other ethnic minorities, was a victory for a group that routinely suffered discrimination.

Eight travellers, originally from Ireland, are claiming discrimination against five pubs in the Harrow and Enfield areas of London, which they say refused to serve them. They brought the case after secretly recording what happened when they asked to be served in the pubs in April 1998.

Lawyers for Punch Retail, the owner of three of the pubs, argued that they were not covered by the Race Relations Act, at a preliminary hearing at Central London County Court last month.

But Judge Goldstein rejected their argument yesterday, saying Irish travellers should be covered by the Act in the same way as other ethnic groups. The judge said Irish travellers had a shared history going back to at least the mid-19th century.

"Modern Irish travellers are guided by the culture and traditions which have been handed down by generations. They do not go around reading history, they practise it," he said. His judgment means that the travellers, who are all in their 40s, can carry on with their claim of discrimination against Punch Retail. The company has the option of appealing within 42 days.


Jim, would you say they are treated with more respect in your chosen country of residence?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:27 AM

In answer to the question by Arthur Hyde. Most are not Gypsies in the true sense of the word. Gypsies are Romany - their origins springing from Rumania. Traditional Romanys have a high standard of life style.

Pikey's are of Irish descent and in Ireland are often known traditionally as Thieves. They are not generally liked and are carefully watched by the police. Thus many come to soft old England.

Pikey's live beyond the law. They have their own laws. As such it is not uncommon to find that their vehicles are not taxed and insured. Any summons's sent to them by police are generally not responded to because they simply move on to another site and use many names.

Their children are expert little con artists and can charm the birds out of the trees, and then the purse out of your pocket. They are often used for criminal activity. When caught they always say they are under 10yrs of age. Thus avoiding any criminal responsibility. Needles to say Mum and Dad have no birth certificates for them.

It is well known that any place Pikey's camp the site is surrounded by rubbish and discarded motor vehicle parts and old tyres. Also the crime rate rises, especially burglary.

The public house mentioned above had Pikey's coming in all the time trying to sell household goods which were blatantly stolen. Someone got murdered at that pub and it was one of the Pikeys that killed him.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Musket
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:46 AM

Mr Carroll. I don't have any adventures amongst the travelling people. Does one need to spin a yarn about them in order to uphold the law?

Glad to see you add bigot to racist, I would love to start a list. Oh, hang on, little England, that's another name calling phrase I take it.

Society has not got a DNA definition of travellers, so please stop being silly. Ot at least, not further than between me and a fruit fly. If you must hold a torch for an indigenous group, at least find one first. Travellers include the Irish and Romany people alluded to in other posts, as well as the lovely phrase "new age travellers." Their link is not so much DNA as having a wish to live on the edge or even over the edge of society. Good luck to them, but not at my expense thank you very much.

Mind you, your DNA argument does work at one level. We all share the DNA of those who have to respect and uphold laws that protect communities, or planning laws as they are called.

This is not about bigotry, racism, your ramblings, the ramblings of bluesman, whatever. It isn't about the Redgrave woman, it isn't about me for that matter. It's about the responsibility you take on when you buy property.

For God's sake, stop turning a planning dispute into genocide. It isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 03:41 PM

"For God's sake, stop turning a planning dispute into genocide. It isn't. "
My only reference to "genocide" has been in response to our rabid right friend's racial abuse of Travellers and the pleasure he has expressed at the fact that Traveller children can only look forward to short life-spans thanks to the efforts of people like him and cheerers-on-from -the-sidelines like you. That is totally reminiscent of the events that sent a quarter of a million Gypsies to the gas chambers.
What I have said (and what has been suggested in The Times this week in its remarkably balanced reportage of the matter) is that what is happening at Dale Farm is a part of a process of ethnic cleansing, which I believe to be the case.
Our seig-heiler friend is quite right, Travellers do have a shorter life span due to their not having access to running water, sanitation, proper medical care and a permanent place to stop in order to live a safe and secure life.
They are constantly under threat from racist thugs and have been marginalised virtually out of existance by the authorities, the majority of the settled community and a corrupt and thuggish predatory police force.
There was some progress towards co-operation made in the seventies and part of the eighties, but Thatcher's "there is no such thing as society" largely put the brakes on that one.
Once again you ignore what has been said about taxes; bastards who have off-shore accounts screw the countries out of far more tax in a year than any similar sized group of Travellers ever could in a lifetime, and take far more of the benefits out of our society. It is people like our bankers, financial speculators, and incompetent and corrupt politicians who have driven the western world to the point of major recession - not the Travellers.      
I ask again - if the Travellers paid tax, would that give them legal stopping places, clean water, education for their kids, access to warmth and light, or to health and social amenities.... bollocks it would!!
On your earlier point; Britain, along with all other "civilised" countries, is now answerable to the world on the question of human rights and abuses of same. Not only have I the right to discuss Britain's record on how it treates its Travelling population and other ethnic minorities, but the British government has a duty to treat its itinerant population in a manner that it does not break the rules that have been agreed on, on the question of the treatment of ethnic minorities.
"It's about the responsibility you take on when you buy property."
No it isn't - it's about how you behave to your fellow human beings -
Moving hundreds of Travellers off a former scrap yard because they haven't got the appropriate bit of paper is an excuse by a spiteful an bigoted local authority to persecute an inconvenient minority out of existance.
One more time - this will cause far more problems than it solves for both the settled and Travelling communities.
"UK race hatred laws do apply to Irish Travellers"
Yes they do, in theory, but not worth the paper its written on if you can still go around our towns and cities and see "no travellers served here" notices displayed on pubs and shops. Try puttin one up saying "No blacks, Irish, Pakistanis, Irish" up and see how long before you endup in court.
Just prior to those rights being (technically) recognised, the Cnservative government pulled away the only safety net Travelles had to having somewhere to stop, the 1968 Caravan and Camping act.
Now Travellers are illegal if they stop and illegal if they continue Ttravelling, and if they move into a house they are at risk from every brain-dead fascist who fancies a bit of 'Gippo-bashing'.
AND NO - things are no better in Ireland than they are in Britain though rural areas do have a long tradition, sadly now disappearing, of close co-operation and reliance between the two communities.
Unfortunately bigotry and racism seem to be an international price for "progress".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 04:22 PM

I love White Man's spelling and grammar. Not.

Mither - we do not here have a Supreme Court that can judge the lawfulness of an enactment. The most it can do is to declare an enactment or its effect contrary to EU law or to the relevant parts of the Human Rights Convention.

What do you do when the law says "You cannot stay, but the only available manners of leaving are also prohibited"? Joseph Hellerman comes to mind.

I have been over the detail of what is and what is not unlawful in Dale Farm, above, with the rational input of DonT.

The burning issue is how to resolve a conflict between statute and the traditions of a group that is (or ought to be - another vexed question as to extent) protected by the Equality Act.

You are not addressing one of the key questions that basic level students of Constitutional Law ask. If a dictator succeeds in getting (we can leave the precise means out) Parliament (or other the relevant democratic assembly) to enact "The word of the dictator is law and the dictator shall not be bound by precedent or rationality" - is the subsequent rule by diktat of the dictator in accordance with "the rule of law"?

You stand on the technicality of planning law - and as to the half of Dale Farm that has no planning permission you are right on that - but does statute as it is today and as it has evolved have legitimacy when a "traveller" - some of whom even the bigots here admit to be racial groups - cannot stay and cannot, without abandoning his racial inheritance, go?   

My view is "No". The travellers once could stop on any verge, camp and travel on. The risk to that began with the Inclosure (or Enclosure) acts. Commons are all but gone. Every move a traveller makes carries the risk of being stranded - like a lorry driver whose tachograph says "stop" but where there is no place to stop. The governments that removed places to stop must be obliged to replace them with other places to stop. That has not happened. That is not the legitimate rule of law, it is oppression.

Congratulations on your move up out of the pits, but you have become the enemy of the oppressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 04:27 PM

A lot of people here getting offended on behalf of the travies. What's the problem? I'm sure they'll be found council houses before too long.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 06:03 PM

I tried to start reading this thread but had to hold my nose to read some of the remarks. Some of you bring really bigotted attitudes to the world you live in.

I hope the Travellers have their own web sites and start threads about those stupid gits (I don't live in the UK, but I hope that implies how pointless and worthless your remarks are) like GUEST: Bluesman, who seems to have nothing to do all day but write racist tracts to do with Travellers. It's only fair.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 06:53 PM

Hello Dozo. Houses? Travellers? Wake up an smell the coffee.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Smokey.
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 07:23 PM

They're knocking houses down, aren't they? I'd have thought that the Council would be obliged to house people whom it rendered homeless, though I expect there are creative ways of avoiding the obligation.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: LadyJean
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 01:15 AM

I don't like it when somebody calls people verming. That's something the Nazis did.

In the little village I live in, here in the U.S.A. Two men came to my door at 10 p.m. of a Monday night, accused me of breaking a window at a local fast food restaurant and tried to get me to pay for it. They didn't get money, because I didn't break that window. But they did scare the hell out of me. And I spent a week terrified I'd be arrested. Before I saw one of the "cops" in a volunteer firefighter's uniform.

He's lived in my "village" all his life. His father lives here too. He's well enough connected that he can pull his cop scam again and again.

Respectable people can be crooks too.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 03:09 AM

Hello Dozo. Houses? Travellers? Wake up an smell the coffee.

And very good coffee it is too in Playa San Juan, Spain!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 11:44 AM

"I'd have thought that the Council would be obliged to house people whom it rendered homeless,"

In UK, especially SE, there is a massive housing crisis.
House prices start around 180 000 UK pounds and mortgage providers will only lend 80%

Agricultural land is vastly cheaper than building land.
But for the planning laws, everyone would do what these Travellers have done.
In a recent case, someone built a lovely mock castle on agricultural land, hidden behind walls of straw bales.
When it was discovered it had to come down.
The same law for everyone.

In recent years, Travellers have used a tactic of laying roads on a site on public holidays so they could finish the job before officialdom could mobilise to stop them.
I expect that is what happened here.

They own the land.
They can not be evicted or prevented from camping, but any buildings or permanent structures are illegal and have to come down.
No special cases under the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 11:51 AM

Farmer loses fight to save home he hid behind hay bales.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/feb/03/farmer-castle-home-haystack-demolition

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 03:29 PM

"No special cases under the law. "
One more time - if they stay were they are they are breaking the law - if they camp at the side of the road they will be breaking the law; which "law" is it best to overlook, the one that allows them to stay or the one that makes 400 plus people homeless just as winter approaches, bearing in mind you are talking about people of all ages and genders, several of them being quite elderly and in poor health. As you point out, "In UK, especially SE, there is a massive housing crisis", so what do you propose should happen to the 400 plus due for eviction - the one that allows them to stay on the site of a former scrap yard or the one that forces them to camp illegally at the side of the road throughout the coming winter?
The Travellers are on a hiding to nothing and this has been brought about by the Tory government's withdrawing the law committing councils to provide sufficient sites for Travellers in their area.
They can't follow the life they were born to without breaking the law and they cannot afford to buy houses, and even if they do, they are certain to be met by hostility and threats from the residents.
We are talking about 300,00 Travellers in Britain today, 50,000 more than the quarter of a million who were extrminated in Nazi concentration camps - do you have a 'final solution'.
Now what were you saying about "no special cases under the law"?
By the way, you rightly pointed out that "UK race hatred laws do apply to Irish Travellers"
As we are on the subject of law and since you raised the questiion of my accusing people of racism, would you care to comment on the legality of Bluesman's incitement to race htred on this thread and whether it should be allowed by th forum's adjudicators.
I see that the Committee Against Racism at the United Nations has urged the British Government to allow the Travellers on Dale Farm to remain where they are - if nothing else has come of all this, at least the spotlight appears now to be focussed on institutional racism in Britain.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 03:32 PM

Sorry 300,000 Travellers in Britain today
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 04:11 PM

Hi, Jim.

The figures I read indicate there are between 200,000 and 300,000. At the high end there is about one Traveller per 200 people in the UK.

The people who have said that some of the Travellers broke the law is so. Some did. However, to toss people out of their homes when they have NO PLACE to go is barbaric. The same happened in the US just a few years back. Instead of councils, it was banks and mortgage companies. The fact that the Travellers in violation of the law have been living in their illegal houses and have been allowed to for ten fu#king years makes me wonder, why now?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 04:29 PM

It's good to see the U.N. taking an interest - it's certainly too big an issue for a planning committee to be handling, and I suspect our government would rather the local authority be responsible for it.

I don't see it's got much to do with mock castles hidden in haystacks though, that was just attempted deception and is being treated as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 04:40 PM

Hi 999(hate these pseudonyms)
The crazy thing is that the organised sites with basic amenities, running water, sanitation, hard standing for the caravans, were working.
We went on dozens of such sites.
The Travellers on them cleaned up their own mess; they got on well with the locals, they could continue Travelling - and as far as the councils were concerned - they were inexpensive to run.
All this seems to me to be ust a piece of vindictive mindlessness by a part of Britain with a long history of perjudice
This will solve nothing - and as far as the law is concerned.....
Madness
I wait with some interest for any anwers to my question - which law??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 04:45 PM

why now? (9)

They've probably got some sort of future development in mind - all that 'green belt' stuff is bollocks as soon as they (or the 'right' developer) want to build on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 04:57 PM

And of course, they're about to 'relax' the green belt laws, so who knows, you might find that Dale Farm would have been allowed to stay after all......

Still, I'd imagine that Dave and Nick will now be able to extend their luxury homes, should they so desire, once they've passed the new rules..along with many of their other buddies....

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 04:58 PM

Why now?
That is how long the legal process took.
The cost to the public runs into millions.
There are hundreds of thousands of families desperate for housing.
It is not just a problem for Travellers.

These ones could still camp on their land, but it is not building land.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 05:15 PM

There are hundreds of thousands of families desperate for housing.

Where? I didn't realise our homelessness problem was that severe. They're not camping on wasteland, I suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 05:24 PM

There's an empty 5 star hotel up for grabs here in Playa San Juan just outside Alicante - the Sidi San Juan, great position overlooking the beach - send them over here!!

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 03:18 AM

Some UK figures.
The problem is at its worst in the South East where these Travellers have chosen to stop travelling.

In 2008/09, 654,000 households in England were overcrowded. [4]

In 2009 the number of repossessions rose to 48,000 from 25,900 in 2007, and it is predicted that repossessions will remain high in the coming years. [5]

7.4 million homes in England fail to meet the Government's Decent Homes Standard. [6]

In 2009/10, more than 62,000 households were found to be homeless by local authorities. [7]

At the end of September 2010, 49,000 households were living in temporary accommodation arranged by local authorities. Just over
38,000 of these households had dependent children.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 03:58 AM

The travies must have standards then!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 04:12 AM

Oh dear. M'Unlearned Friend has congratulated Ian Mather for rising out of the pits.

Indeed, I too used to have a job in a coal mine. Ian was an electrician so I doubt he worked, although we fitters worked twice as hard on their behalf.

My point is that for a solicitor to say a professional in another field "rose" when they had a career change.... You are an elitist after all! You are as bad as me.

Regarding this situation. I reckon the main problem was the council letting the buildings get established in the first place. Now, it affects so many people, it becomes less easy to apply the law, less easy to protect the interests of nearby residents and yes, less easy to protect the interests of those who are living on the site.

A bit of a rum do, but picking and choosing when to uphold the law is fraught with danger. There may be an argument to say it is not in the public interest to enforce the order as opposed to saying the order cannot be enforced, but I would be concerned about the precedent set if the council lose the right to apply planning laws.

Incidentally, the government are looking to change the laws and one article I read implied that under proposed changes, the travellers would have more freedom to build their little community to their design. Tories to the rescue eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 04:36 AM

You seem to be arguing against yourself here.
There is a housing crisis in Britain and Ireland - one created by crooked and incompetent politicians and avaricious investment bankers who have driven the western world to the brink of financial ruin. It's not beyond the bounds of reason that we will soon be seeing many thousands of families from the settled community evicted from their homes because they cannot pay their morgages - will you cry "illegal" if they start squatting in empty property in order to put a roof over their childrens' heads, as has happened in the past?
Still no answer as to what should happen to those evicted - didn't really expect one.
Try again - which law is it most important to uphold - the one that turns people out of their homes and throws them on the side of the road or the one that leves them to live on a piece o land that was once used as a scrap yard - or if neither, what is your suggestion of an alternative?
It is extremely misleading to say that Travellers have "chosen" to stop Travelling - they have been forced to do so by the government making it impossible to do so.
Why now - this has been happening for over a two decades; from a 1995 study from Leicester University (http://webjcli.ncl.ac.uk/articles3/onions3.html):

"Summary
Despite the recognition that Gypsies constitute a racial group for the purposes of the Race Relations Act 1976, they have persistently suffered discrimination and prejudice from the rest of society. The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 (hereinafter CJPOA) contains provisions which will reduce the number of authorised Gypsy sites available in an attempt to discourage the nomadic way of life which has been central to the lives of many Gypsies for over five-hundred years. The effect of this legislation will be to worsen the hostility shown towards the Gypsy community. It is also likely to have severe implications for the welfare of the Gypsy family unit. Ultimately however, a comparison with other European jurisdictions will illustrate that this legislation will not succeed in persuading Gypsies to abandon their traditions because it is founded on a myth, namely that Gypsies are simply a social bonding of nomads with no distinctive culture or group identity."   

And still no comment on the legality of Bluesman's goose-stepping racist diatribes - or doesn't your insistence that the law be upheld cover racism?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 04:56 AM

I think you'll find that using agricultural land for camping, for more than a certain number of days a year, requires planning permission too. Catch-22 is not so simply turned.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 05:19 AM

Jim,
"And still no comment on the legality of Bluesman's goose-stepping racist diatribes - or doesn't your insistence that the law be upheld cover racism?"

I love being a member of Mudcat.
The nice guy who provides it for us asks little of us in return.
We can express any view we like, but must not pass judgement on each other.
I intend to keep to Max's rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 05:23 AM

Jim, the housing crisis in England (my figs were just for England, not UK) predates the economic crisis.
We have had a housing shortage since WW2, and in recent decades the population has been far outstripping housebuilding.
In the SE there is little land for building anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 05:25 AM

Richard, I think you are wrong about the camping restriction.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 06:23 AM

"I intend to keep to Max's rule."
Max's rule seems to allow racists to use this forum as a racist platform - for somebody who is insisting on a Catch-22 law to be obeyed by Travellers, isn't this a little hypocritical on your part? Incitement to race hatred is illegal and is surely worthy of comment.
"the housing crisis in England (my figs were just for England, not UK) predates the economic crisis."
The present housing crisis is a repetition of that which happened in the 1980s, which was a direct result of Thatcher's campaign to rid Britain of rented council houses, the practical results of which (homelessness) is part and parcel of the same thing.
This is beside the point I was making - to repeat;
"It's not beyond the bounds of reason that we will soon be seeing many thousands of families from the settled community evicted from their homes because they cannot pay their morgages - will you cry "illegal" if they start squatting in empty property in order to put a roof over their childrens' heads, as has happened in the past?"
And your answer on the legal contradiction - it is you who insists that Travellers obey the law.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 07:02 AM

Richard, you are right about camping, at least for caravans.

Jim, if you do not like the rules you have a choice.

All laws apply eqally to all including the rich farmer who hoped his mansion would be missed.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 07:28 AM

Jim,
"The present housing crisis is a repetition of that which happened in the 1980s, which was a direct result of Thatcher's campaign to rid Britain of rented council houses,"

No Jim.
The cause of England's housing crisis is that there are not enough houses for all the people to live in.
Thatcher did not destroy any houses.
More houses were being built then than now.
The massive increase in population, a new Manchester every year, has turned the shortage into a crisis.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 07:43 AM

Dear oh dear oh dear. Fred's, Please get your facts straight before you attempt to discredit anyone. I have NEVER mentioned any of the above.

"BTW. You may have noticed that he's broadened his field of attack to include Eastern Europeans. Then there's Muslims, gays, trade unionists, Jews, Slavs, socialists and practitioners of political correctness to have a go at."

"BTW. Dick Tiffin. I learned today that Bluesman's mentor, the great white hope, has had his car impounded by the bailiffs for non-payment of debt."


Please state your proof before you make such ludicrous accusations.

Fred's, did you or did you not post that comment a few months ago that I brought to people's attention earlier this week ? If was a point of fact. Now please do the same regarding your hilarious remarks above.

Can we please keep this thread on track, the Illegal Pikey's are going to be removed from this greenbelt, accept it and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 08:17 AM

Utter nonsense
Thatcher destroyed affordable rented homes that council housing provided and it is the lower income families who will suffer from the present crisis.
Your silence on allowing racist ranting to go uncommented on speaks for itself.
"I intend to keep to Max's rule."
Two days ago you ignored all the points I have been making here about Travellers and wrote:
"Jim why is it so important to you that you be allowed to label people "racist" on this forum."
It appears that you comment on the nature of other people's contributions when they contradict your own and refuse to comment when they correspond with your own outlook - or to misquote Orwell shamelessly - 'racist rant good, anti racism bad.'
I said I wasn't going to enter one of your black holes again, so back to the subject.
The silence on the legal contradiction raised by leaving the Travellers on Dale Farm or evicting them illustrate perfectly why the law is not an issue here.
Legally, it is a simple case of leaving them where they are, on an ex-scrap yard, or mounting a massively expensive eviction which will put the well-being and even lives of those concerned at risk and force them to break the law elsewhere.
The matter can only be dealt with sensibly on logical and humane terms.
To move them would break up a single group into hundreds of smaller ones, all breaking the law and spread all over the South East of England.
The parrot-like repetition of "All laws apply eqally to all" is not unlike the old 'Journey Into Space' quote that seems to have stuck in my memory most of my life "Orders must be obeyed without question at all times".
Which law are you referring to, the one that says they shouldn't have built on a scrap-yard (and which, as Lizzie points out, is quite likely to be changed in the near future) or the one that says they shouldn't camp illegally?
The real alternative is that all councils should be made to provide adequate stopping places throughout Britain, but until that happens the logical, and humane short-term solution is to leave them where they are
This is not a legal issue, it is a simple matter of racial persecution, as the United Nations Committee's intervention on the matter indicates.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 08:19 AM

Right, now the covert attempts to take our minds of the illegal camp of Pikey's has failed. Read this.
It would appear the Pikey's have piled up rubber tyres and are ready to set them on fire. (Environmental damage guaranteed) They are also ready to attack police and council officials. Such threats of physical violence must be dealt with by the law.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2031921/Dale-Farm-eviction-Bailiffs-set-bulldoze-Europes-largest-illegal-campsite.html

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 08:26 AM

Thanks to those who have confirmed my impression about planning and camping.

Keith, the housing issue that Thatcher created was that although she obliged councils to sell houses (indeed at a discount) to gerrymander - a plan that house owners would be more likely to vote conservative - you are overlooking the other claw of her pincer. Councils were not allowed to use money from council house sales to build more council houses. This was again political in that it prevented concentrations of labour voters, but it did two other things. It reduced the number of houses being built, so increasing the housing crisis because the number of "households" was growing faster than the housing stock, and by stopping that building it contributed to the crisis in the building industry - and she was intentionally increasing unemployment in order to make workers more biddable for the bosses.

She still has my vote for the most evil woman of the 20th century.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 09:40 AM

""What do you do when the law says "You cannot stay, but the only available manners of leaving are also prohibited"? Joseph Hellerman comes to mind.""

Playing Devil's advocate, not to raise temperatures, but purely in the spirit of rational discussion..........

Where do you draw the line Richard?

While travellers are moving from place to place, they are indeed (with the exception of New Age Travelers) following the ancient heritage of their respective nomadic cultures, and are of course exempt from taxes and some laws relating to the settled community.

However, these particular travellers have left the travelling tradition to buy land and develop it for residence as part of the settled community.

Ergo, they are no longer travellers, yet half of them want to enjoy the settled existence without being bound by the same rules as all other house dwellers.

My question is this....are we not arguing about the wrong thing entirely?

Surely, when you join a club or organisation, you agree implicitly to obey the rules of that organisation.

It is my understanding that the occupants of the illegal section have been offered council accommodation.

I don't quite see how the authority can back down without setting a dangerous precedent under which I could buy a field, build a chalet home without planning permission and ignoring building regulations, and expect to be left alone to live there.

Anyone who has seen the shanty towns surrounding Cairo will tell you that is not a good idea.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 09:42 AM

All the houses she sold are still standing and fully occupied.
The issue is not who owns the houses, just that there are not enough houses for all the people.
The crisis has worsened dramatically because it is utterly impossible to come close to building another Manchester every year.
In the SE there is no building land to speak of at all anyway.

Ordinary homeless people just get put in hostels or B&Bs, and then only if they have children.
Why should any group have different treatment?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 09:48 AM

""The fact that the Travellers in violation of the law have been living in their illegal houses and have been allowed to for ten fu#king years makes me wonder, why now?""

Because UK law, like the mills of God, grinds small but exceeding slow.

Just think about how long Caryl Chessman dragged out the appeals process. 11 years wasn't it?

Our lot can be much slower than that, if your lawyer knows his job.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 09:48 AM

"She [Thatcher] still has my vote for the most evil woman of the 20th century." Bridge
,.,.,.,.

Hmmm. Let's see ···

Myra Hindley
Irma Grese
Eva Braun
Rosemary West
Elena Ceauşescu
Ilse Koch
................................

But none of these has Thatcher's power of invoking the hatred of the lefties for having had the all-time gall to defeat them on a popular vote in three [count them - 3!] General Elections.

Ooh diddums!!!!!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 09:51 AM

England 2009.
48 000 repossessions .
In the last quarter, 24,170 tenants faced eviction notices

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 10:06 AM

""Thatcher destroyed affordable rented homes that council housing provided and it is the lower income families who will suffer from the present crisis.""


Those rented houses were occupied by people who had security of tenure, and with every likelihood that the majority would have stayed in them all their lives.

The houses are still there, and still occupied, but the population has increased massively, so the shortfall has nothing to do with whether the occupants rent or have bought them.

Either way they are not on the market, affordable or otherwise!

""Your silence on allowing racist ranting to go uncommented on speaks for itself.""

Be careful what you wish for Jim, you might one day get it!

Your own comments also display a tendency to racism.

Phrases like "Little Englanders" and your obvious dislike of all things British, would quite likely cause your own disappearance from the site along with those you want removed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 10:15 AM

Well it has been an interesting week. The rule of law has been upheld and we are about to see it enforced. I feel I made my contribution by explaining to the uninitiated the true facts of this case.


Well all parties have been to court, and then the appeal court and the outcome is still the same. THEY ARE THERE ILLEGALLY AND MUST LEAVE THE SITE OR BE REMOVED BY FORCE IF NESSACARY.


One gentleman who spoke to Sky News summed it up, he said "There is genuine terror about what is to come, these so called travellers are threatening violence and walking around openly with swords, machetes and hammers. The misery and fear we have had for years could be nothing by comparison. The fact  that they have stated children could be held in one arm as they thrust forward with swords shows the depths that these people are prepared to stoop to. It's the  sort of thing a demented despot  would do.'


An Essex Police spokesman said that if any children took part in the protests, 'social services would be involved and remove them'.

John Baron, the MP for Basildon and Billericay, said: 'The law must be enforced equally and fairly, otherwise we  discriminate against the law-abiding majority. No one group or  individual can be above the law. Why should a man that has lived there for some 20 years have to build extra high fences to keep them from trespassing onto his land and suffer from them putting their rubbish into his garden and their sewage going alongside his garden ?


In my opinion, this guy has been paying tax and insurance for all these years so he should have his rights taken into account first . If they are "travellers" well they will have no problem travelling then, will they ? They should be kept isolated away from decent, law abiding people.   Preferably on a island only accessed by a ferry.


The truth is, they're a bunch of inarticulate people with a totally selfish agenda.  

I think this thread should now be wind up s people can no longer defend these Pikey's, otherwise they are going against the rule of law, I have made my point and the court decision would confirm this. Maybe someone could start a new one when the inevitable occurs, oh how I will relish that moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 10:33 AM

"Ergo, they are no longer travellers"
Yes they are - the permanent sites set up in Britain fully recognized the Travellers need to travel and made full allowance for the residents to continue the lifestyle they were born into and allow them to leave and return to their allocated sites at will.
Moving Travellers into houses is extremely expensive and satisfies neither the Travellers nor the settled community who do not wish Travellers to be settled in their area.
Most Travellers to not adapt well to living in houses and the mental and physical health issues arising from forcing them to do so are well established; the Leicester University survey above touches on them.
The 'solution' here in Ireland has been to build €multi-million walled ghettoes - hasn't worked for anybody.
The simple and by far most economical policy is to supply halting sites with hard standing and basic access to facilities; running water, sanitation and electricity - go and look at the ones outside Swindon or Bristol (Winterbourne), or any other properly established permanent site.
Most of these have been set up with full consultation of Travellers themselves, a practice that was implemented in the late sixties with the introduction of the 1968 Caravan and Camping Act.
Your Cairo shantytowns are the result of having no planning policy.
"She still has my vote for the most evil woman of the 20th century"
You going soft Richard - only the 20th century? She remains the Rosa Klebb of British politics, lacking only the poisoned boot.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 10:38 AM

Cross-posted Bluesman's latest stream of vomit - thanks for showing us what it's really about.
Never mind, you have Keith's blessing - what more could you want?
"But none of these has Thatcher's power of invoking the hatred of the lefties"
But she did have Gerneral P as a friend and mentor
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 10:39 AM

Well Carroll you can talk until morning, It isn't going to change things.

They are about to be booted off that site, so like it or lump it old boy!

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 10:54 AM

Can one be in favour of allowing people to build on Green Belt land, yet against destruction of the rain forest?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 10:59 AM

""Your Cairo shantytowns are the result of having no planning policy.""

Thank you for making my point so succinctly Jim.

So how does that stack up with your insistence that the way forward is to ignore planning rules and set a precedent that would render them unenforceable?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 11:20 AM

How do you know when someone loses an argument on Mudcat ?

They create a thread drift and go off on a tangent about salaries given to hard working individuals within financial institutions, Margaret Thatcher, Augusto José Ramón Pinochet or the Wehrmacht.

Failing that, decent people such as Max, Joe of a mud elf receive a barrage of insults or a mouthful of switchers before they offer to resign their membership.

I doubt few could disagree with this assumption.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 11:36 AM

The issue Don lies in the doctrine of Parliamentary supremacy. We do not have an effective mechanism to scrutinise unjust laws. The current state of the law does an injustice to travellers, most of whom would like to be able to travel, but they cannot. The wise solution would be as Jim says, sufficient satisfactory sites. Then, even if travellers did stop for a short time elsewhere, they could (and on apparent inclination) soon would move on.

By way of comparison, stopping for a chat on a pedestrian pavement is, technically, an illegal obstruction of the highway - but no-one needs to bother about it if it is a brief self-curing obstruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 12:16 PM

"Never mind, you have Keith's blessing "

Why do you say such things Jim?

The rule is that members can say what they like on any issue, but not pass judgement on each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 01:03 PM

"but not pass judgement on each other."
But you feel free to pass judgement on my contribution....
"Jim why is it so important to you that you be allowed to label people "racist" on this forum. Why can you not just expose weaknesses and flaws in members' arguments?"
.... why not on somebody's statements that are designed to promote race hatred? The fact that you refuse to comment speaks volumes and has nothing whatever to do with "Max's rules".
"Thank you for making my point so succinctly Jim."
Not making your point at all Don; just pointing out that without planned official sites further Dale Farms or unofficial pull-ons are the inevitable consequence. I described what has been successful in the past and could have been the answer for the future if it had not been abandoned by a Tory government.
I have never urged the ignoring of planning rules - I've seen enough of the green belt disappear to be concerned about preserving it.
We are talking about an ex-scrapyard being used to house people who otherwise would be homeless thanks to the inadequacy of the present laws.
The only alterntive being offered here is eviction, leaving those evicted to continue breaking the law.   
The present laws on this issue are totally unworkable and contradictory and leave no aternative but to ignore them until they are changed - or what?
Do you have a proposal on what should happen to those due to be evicted?
As for "Little Englander" being racist - no more racist than describing people as Xenophobic - a mindset that always emerges when the question of Travellers is raised.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 01:08 PM

Well Mr. Carroll, all of us can't all be wrong. Your support seems to be getting thin on the ground old boy.

Let's allow this thread to die.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 01:11 PM

Jim,
"Do you have a proposal on what should happen to those due to be evicted? "

In the last quarter there were 24 000 evictions here.

I do not think that these evicted people get enough support, but
I do not see why one group should get preferential treatment.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 01:54 PM

Hey White Man - I have another idea.

Now to return to the relatively sensible part of the discussion. Keith, the problem for travellers is that the law under discussion here bears unduly harshly on their traditions. Their traditions of travelling, camping, and moving on, leaving (as the song says) just "marks in the grass", oh, and maybe a few carelessly mislaid maidenheads, pace DH Lawrence, did very little harm. Removal of the opportunity to move on and camp again meant that camps became longer lasting, of necessity. Would you swim from an island not knowing where the next was to be found? Restrictions on what waste could be disposed of on council tips using what vehicles made it harder for those stopping to leave good conditions (although some groups do seem much better than others).

Society tried to corral the travellers into stopping. Somewhere. Preferably NIMBY said Essex and other places.

The conservatives tore up the plans to require adequate stopping spaces.

Now planning laws bite on self-reliant efforts to make adequate stopping spaces.

The reason the travellers should be better treated is that they have been worse treated by the very same laws. The majesty of English law that even handedly forbids both rich and poor to beg or to sleep on the streets is not the correct pathway.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 02:02 PM

This morning I posted a message correcting the impression that this thread has now acquired two trolls.

I would be glad if someone could tell me why this message has been removed, along with one I posted yesterday, and one I posted earlier last week. If Mudcat is trying its hand at censorship, then it would be better directed at the racist filth which our pseudonymous guest has been pouring all over this thread for the past two weeks.

I note that Bluesman's posting, challenging some of the things I said in my posting of this morning, is still up. I would like to have the opportunity of refuting him.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 02:13 PM

Silas disappeared, too. Probably just an accident.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 02:13 PM

Richard. That was just about the finest summing up of the "traveller" problem I've ever come across. The nomadic life of travellers comes slap bang against that of settled society and because they incovenience us, they are the ones who have to get out of the way.

A pity no-one ever stopped to consider how much the ways of settled society, including the enclosure of common land and the consequent lack of camping places, inconvenienced the travellers.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 02:15 PM

Guest 999. "Silas disappeared, too. Probably just an accident." If it was there's an awful lot of accidents happening around here lately.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 02:16 PM

Flattery will get you everywhere! Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 02:36 PM

We all must respect the law of the land. It applies to everyone.

As I said earlier, the courts ruled the Pikey's stink camp is illegal, hence they are going to be booted off it .

It is nice to see the increasing number of members here expressing their respect for the rule of law.

Fred's, you seem to be losing more posts recently than the Royal Mail. Ah well, goes to show the moderators are continuing to do a great job.

I think this thread should really be wind up, there is nothing new coming out of it.

The courts did their job, and may I add, a fine job at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 02:49 PM

Bluesman. The day you wind up an awful lot of people are going to be very happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 02:52 PM

Richard,
"Keith, the problem for travellers is that the law under discussion here bears unduly harshly on their traditions."

Your point is well made but I am not sure Richard.
These issues only arise in the most overcrowded parts of the country.
I believe that lack of space is the problem, and this links with the housing crisis in those same areas.

My case is that the misery of eviction and homelessness bears just as hard on the settled community but their anonymous, lonely, individual catastrophes pass unseen.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 02:53 PM

If that day ever came, I imagine I would keep to my word and not crawl back.

As I said, we must respect the law. The courts ruled that the Pikey's must go, so go they must. Pretty simple to understand really.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 03:16 PM

"Your support seems to be getting thin on the ground old boy."
I don't see many people stooping to your racist abusive language, nor do I see any movement in favour of the eviction.
If I changed my opinion because others did not agree I'd hang a bell round my neck and go in to be sheared regularly.
"I do not see why one group should get preferential treatment. "
We are talking here about the unneccessary eviction of a specific ethnic group who are being targeted because of their ethnic origins, not a family made homeless because of the shenanigins of predatory big business and corrupt and incompetent politicians.
There are between 200,000 - 300,000 Travellers in Britain; less than half of them are on official sites, so should this eviction go through, the door will be open to move against all families camping unofficially.
I am appalled at the idea that anybody should be made homeless, particulary because of greed, corruption and incompetence in high places, but to target people because of their ethnic origins when there is more than enough waste land to cater for them all comfortably is totally unacceptable - here we are talking about people who are judged of less worth than the rubbish which once filled the site in question.
The United Nations recognises this as an racist act, which s why their committee has made the appeal that it has made.
Incidentally, although it has met resistance from the Irish Government, there are moves afoot here to "forgive" morgages where homeowners are at risk of losing their homes through being unable to pay.
I ask again - where are these families to go and why is it not possible that they remain where they are? Who benefits from their eviction apart from braindead bigots
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 03:22 PM

Mark is a racist. Long and short of it. If we ignore him he will sink back into the mud from whence he came.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 03:51 PM

We must respect the rule of law, even those who strongly disagree with it. The sound advice of a friend who is an accomplished presentable solicitor.

People should really distance themselves from such people who advocate breaking the law. Everyone should show respect for it, otherwise we face anarchy.

This illegal occupation is a vivid instance of how relations between people of differing views break down. I am proud to say, that throughout this thread I supported the outcome of the courts. We also saw how a thread can deteriorate because of the extreme views of certain individuals who will not accept a court ruling.

It is all the more important, therefore, that there should be regular monitoring of such threads of differing views.

Good neighbourly relations between the police and the British taxpayer are important in such situations as Dale Farm as they reduce the chances of misunderstanding.

So what can we say about this sad event? The first thing to say quite clearly is that mindless violence, murder and barbarity created by Pikey's must be condemned by all right-thinking people of whatever political belief or background.

It is particularly horrifying that some have condemned council officials and court appointed bailiffs. Their developmental operations have also been attacked and its personnel could possibly be killed or injured in the threatened most blood-curdling remarks made by these Pikey's.

It is welcome news that the local pressure group has agreed not to pull-out from the area until the job is completed, on the other hand, a group of lunatic lefties have attempted to destroy the work of a council that is charged by the government to maintain order in such a dangerous area.

Secondly, the importance of freedom of speech must be upheld on this forum. People should be prepared to disagree, even disagree strongly, with each other and there must be room for vigorous debate and discussion. Not making up lies and creating stories about highly respected contributors.

People of different views need to learn how to take criticism of their views from others, to respond to this with words and not brick-bats and to be self-critical of themselves and their own tradition.

The media should report only on the damage this Pikey den has done to law abiding taxpayers in this area who respect the law.


Preventing incitement to hatred towards settled members of our community must be the governments first priory, otherwise it can lead to violence or discrimination against law abiding individuals.

Wisdom, restraint and understanding can take us a long way even, and perhaps especially, when we disagree strongly with one another.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 03:54 PM

Jim,
"We are talking here about the unneccessary eviction of a specific ethnic group who are being targeted because of their ethnic origins,"

No.
Targeted for breaking the planning laws.
Every family here includes people desperate for a decent home.
As Don says, it would be advantageous for just about every family in the SE to do what they did, and if it was allowed then all England would be shanty.
I would do it for my daughter.
Who do you have Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 04:47 PM

""I have never urged the ignoring of planning rules - I've seen enough of the green belt disappear to be concerned about preserving it.
We are talking about an ex-scrapyard being used to house people who otherwise would be homeless thanks to the inadequacy of the present laws.""

That is exactly what you are urging, and the ex scrapyard is a complete red herring.

The fact that a piece of green belt land has been illegally misused in the past is irrelevant.

For all that you know to the contrary, that scrapyard may very well have been run by the same travellers who now occupy it.

""As for "Little Englander" being racist - no more racist than describing people as Xenophobic - a mindset that always emerges when the question of Travellers is raised.""

I agree; no more racist and no less racist, so why wouldn't you merit dismissal also?

"""but not pass judgement on each other."
But you feel free to pass judgement on my contribution....""

Precisely Jim!!!

The contribution yes, the man NO!!

We are at liberty to say "That is a racist statement", but Max is clear that we are not permitted to say "You are a racist".

Most of us grasped what Max required of us, and are trying our best to comply.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 04:49 PM

Green belt land is cheaper, precisely because it cannot be built on.