PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 03:47 PM

THANK YOU, RICK! Ethically Correct it is! And, Peter, I always knew you were "blue". Tell me how was the transition for exotic dancer to indigo a go go?

Joe, you wrote: we liberals have a nasty tendency toward obsessive rule-making, "thought control," and paternalism.
Fuuny...that's what I thought the conservatives were trying to do when they try to legislate what I can or cannot do with my body or what consenting adults can or cannot do in the privacy of their own bedrooms, or when they try to ban music & books!

You also wrote: I noticed in another thread that you called several verses of "Cotton-Eyed Joe" racist.
I only said that about the one and only version which is in the DigiTrad. I also have said, in various threads that I do NOT advocate changing those original verses, I just question why anyone would sing them, outside of reenacting to educate.

And, finally, you know I have to respond *bg* to this: As a student of theology, I have trouble with the current effort to refer to the Deity in feminine or neuter terms.
Certain disciplines of spirituality have always had a dual or female/male diety, throughout milennia. That the Christian era became one of extreme patriarchy leading to subjugation of women is no secret. I see the ongoing, since it started at least 25 years ago, I wouldn't call it just "current", effort to be inclusive of women as an issue of not just equality but also of the recognition of a diety which is in balance with her/his own Creation. I agree with you that god or whomever just is and also would like to get away from ascribing any kind of gender, but, after almost 2,000 years of women getting the short end of the stick, I think the change is helping us towards a more balanced view and world and I welcome it.

I have written many times, in editorials, that the Picean Age, which gave way to the Aquarian Age in the 1960's was a very patriarchal age, thus so was Christianity. The Aquarian Age is purported to be one of equality and balancing out, thus we have women coming into their own, hopefully, released or freed from subjugation because of their biological makeup. (We still have a long way to go in certain parts of the world, such as Afghanistan.) I've also said some who embrace the old patriarchal views will be dragged kicking and screaming into the new age of Aquarius; thus we have the likes of Pat Buchanan, etc. who really are trying not to maintain the staus quo, but to regress to the days before civil rights and women's rights.

I know you are not of that crew, Joe. I am just pointing out some of my beliefs and viewpoints. It's always been the Great Spirit or the Cosmic to me; but I do recognise the pervasiveness of the male image of god and the effect that has had on women, lo these many thousands of years.*g*

lamarca: I read Nat Hentoff, too and agree with some of what he says in that regard.

Davey: good on you!

Jack: I know some Native Americans, one who wrote a book, but I can't remember which one it is at the moment, anyway he and others use the term "Indian" because they scoff at the "white man's invention of the term Native American" and believe it a sorry attempt to assuage their guilt over the past.

Joe: I guess whatI am trying to say is it is a matter of inclusiveness. During the last 2,000 years women have not been included much as full members of society. Hell, we just got the right to vote in this century. If we didn't speak up when we are offended or hurt, things would never change; injustice would be served and none the wiser or better off.

Tiger: ain't it great?! Thanks to you all for responding so passionately and with such diverse eloquence.

Now...I think I'll go be a "do-gooder". **BG**

katlaughing

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: Alice
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 03:45 PM

kat-
I have the same problem of being fed up with the way people use the term 'mysticism', since popular culture has started using it in its corrupt meaning of the pseudo-mysticism of occultism and superstition.

I don't mean to start some serious thread creep here, but my point is, as Joe described, the ideal that you hope people strive for is not the same as the term "politically correct". So, being a writer, I am sure you can come up with a phrase that more clearly communicates your admirable ethics.

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: Splenky
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 02:54 PM

Seems to me that the attitude of politically correctedness is to simply stop using hurtful terms. Since we are all offended by different things, the PC movement was doomed before it started. But hey, it's the right idea; do we really need to offend anybody?

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: Tiger
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 02:17 PM

This thing of ours, this Mudcat, is truly a rarity in today's "me-first" culture, whether or not we're all PC. In fact, what we DON'T need here is definitions of PC or PC-extremism, or whatever.

This group obviously cares about people and how they feel, and wouldn't say s**t if they had a mouthful. We need to recognize how lucky we are to have such a place to visit, where feelings are sincere, people care, and we worry more about shape notes than the shape we're in. No matter how we learned it (I'd hope through happy family situations), this group demonstrates personal values that the PC and anti-PC folks should wish they had.

I don't care if you're black/white, liberal/conservative, God-fearing/heathen, or can't sing a lick. You have those values, and I'm glad you're my buddies.

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: Alice
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 02:16 PM

bravo, Joe. -alice flynn

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 02:05 PM

I cannot tell you, Rick Fielding, how hurtful it is to me, as a helpful piece of HTML design, working all the time to bridge the distances between people, to be called a "blue clicky thing". I am not a "blue clicky thing"!! I am a vehicle to improve choice! I am a portal on the body electronic! I am a door onto a world of diversity! I am not a thing, I am a cyberspatial process!! I am not clicky, it is what people do to me that is clicky! I am being described according to the noises of other people's machines. I prefer to think of it as humanity pressing itself into my glorious linkyness.

Oh, Rick, Rick, if you only knew what heartgrief you have caused me, and many like me, innocent cyberworkers for the human good.

If absolutely necessary to refer to me at all, please refer to me as "indigo a go go".

yours in agony, Azure Gently (ex. exotic dancer, currently HTML command)

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 02:02 PM

Hi, Kat - I suppose it's a matter of semantics, but I don't think you're going to be able change the term "politically correct" and get rid of the negative connotations.
Here's the definition from the Third Edition of Webster's New World College Dictionary (1997):

politically correct conforming or adhering to what is regarded as orthodox liberal opinion on matters of sexuality, race, etc.: usually used disparagingly to connote dogmatism, excessive sensitivity to minority causes, etc.

If it has that sort of connotation in the dictionary, I'd say you're better off not using that word to describe an ideal you'd like to strive for. I'd say it might be better to use a term like "avoiding offensive language" (or attitudes, or whatever).

From personal observation, I'd say that the connotation of the term is that "political correctness" is an attempt to cleanse our language and culture of words and ideas that might cause somebody to have a reason to become indignant. Although the goal of "political correctness" is to decrease prejudice, it has a tendency to create a certain intolerance and indigation that can increase the strife among various groups.
While we may have lofty ideals, we liberals have a nasty tendency toward obsessive rule-making, "thought control," and paternalism. We have to be aware that our high-mindedness can be every bit as intolerant as the bigotry we seek to destroy.
There are also many unforeseen and undesirable byproducts of this attempt to cleanse our culture. I noticed in another thread that you called several verses of "Cotton-Eyed Joe" racist. I see those same verses as a valuable reminder of the difficult life that people lived under slavery. If we remove those things from our culture, we may also shield ourselves from the lessons we need to learn from past mistakes (of course, I have to admit that I banged heads with Dick Greenhaus in another thread by being reluctant to post the lyrics of a "John Chinaman" song - we all have our limits).
As a student of theology, I have trouble with the current effort to refer to the Deity in feminine or neuter terms. For at least the last thirty years, I have contended that the Deity is not masculine, feminine, or neuter - but how do you refer to God without using one of those three genders? Traditions that go back thousands of years have used masculine terms to refer to God, and I'm not so sure we should be quick to deny those traditions, and the wisdom that has built up over all those years. Otherwise, we end up worshipping a god/goddess/cosmic spirit that we created just yesterday. I'd prefer to worship a loving God who has been with us since the beginning of time, even if the words I use to refer to that Deity are less than perfect.
I also think we need to examine the value of going to all this effort to change our language and culture. Is it really important to change words like "manhole cover" and "chairman" (and "woman," perhaps), or are we better off living with the reality of speaking a language that can be a quaint and interesting and colorful reminder of days gone by? Might it be better to just learn not to take offense at words that lack a perfectly "politically correct" pedigree?
While the goals of "political correctness" are admirable, I think there are lots of problems connected with this sort of thing. Rather than trying to legislate attitudes, I think we need to do all we can to gently encourage people to develop a genuine respect and concern and tolerance for one another.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: Melodeon
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 01:57 PM

I couldn't agree more, the term PC is a derogatory term and while we are on the subject, could I mention one of my pet hates. The term "do gooder" is a form of abuse here in the UK and I a still trying to work ouy why doing good should be a reason to be vilified, after all wouldn't William Wilberforce,, Martin Luther King, Florence Nightingale et al have been described as "do gooders". I'm sorry Kat if this is thread creeping, I do respect your views and agree that we should all live our lives having respect for all other ethnic groups and anyone who may be different from us. Melodeon

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: lamarca
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 01:56 PM

Kat, the term "PC" as derogatory is not only used by conservatives, but also liberals (like me) to protest acts of censorship done with a liberal bias. It's appallingly contradictory to call one's-self a defender of human rights and advocate removal of "Huckleberry Finn" or "inappropriate" folksongs so that weak minds will not be exposed to the supposedly offensive material in them. There's a columnist for the Washington Post, Nat Hentoff, who writes about free speech issues a lot. While I disagree with some of his views (he's strongly anti-abortion), I admire his efforts to point out that college and school administrators who stifle "uncivil" speech by students are just as wrong as a right-wing fascist who would try to stifle our liberal viewpoints. One of the drawbacks of Freedom of Speech is that it needs to be applied to all speech, not just that speech we agree with.

Our responsibility as caring people who appreciate diversity is not to censor offensive or hateful speech patterns, but to make sure that our views are also heard, and quietly try to make an impression on people who are offensive inadvertantly rather than deliberately. People not only won't change the mind of a bigot or sexist, but also won't win too many supporters who are basically decent folks if they insist that everyone embrace awkward gender-neutral or "euphemistically-challenged"-type speech patterns.

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: Davey
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 01:54 PM

I think the intent of being 'Politically Correct' in the terms you describe, KatL, and as described by sophocleese, are laudable, and I also ascribe to do my part in that respect. We can be heartened by the fact that, when something worthwhile is happening, and is beginning to be accepted and embraced by more and more people, the 'right' will attempt to co-opt it and undermine it by ridiculing it, making it into a joke. The mainstream press is the vehicle most frequently used. This is an indication that we are being effective and making a difference. An example is the number of articles in the press and various magazines suggesting that 'feminism' is dead, or that it has outlived it's usefulness, or other such terms. I'm glad that I'm a left-wing, socially aware 'PC' feminist. I like to think of myself as being in transition, from a sexist male to a less sexist male, and I still have a long way to go. And if anyone detects anything in my attitudes or behaviour that's not in keeping with that, they would be doing me a big favour by discussing it with me.

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: Jack (Who is called Jack)
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 01:48 PM

As an idea, political correctness is OK. And yet the problems with it in application are not insignificant. Perhaps the greatest problem is this, that it creates litmus tests for an artificial boundary between people. It creates a 'code of language' to determine ideological dividing lines instead of fostering ideological dialogs (You used the word 'Indians' instead of Native Americans, ergo YOU are on that side of the line with the other bigots). If you don't think that its being used that way, look at the guy in Washington who almost lost his job because he used the word niggardly.

When something that is designed as an aid to personal, internal moral guidance instead becomes a technique for analyzing and sorting out others into good or bad at an individual level, its always a disaster. It contains an inherent rejection of the individual. You cannot look at people through such a lens and still believe in them as complex, richly textured, intelligent, moral beings on a personal path through a difficult and challenging world. When that happens, sympathy is replaced with patronization, or worse, with contempt.

And yet the seductive power of that view is undeniable. That is why prophets for millenia have warned against it. Jesus' admonition about 'the speck in thy neighbors eye vs. the beam in thine own' is but an example. It is not an idle warning. Again and again history shows what lies at the end of that path.

There is a passage from an author I admire greatly that repeats that warning, in words far more eloquent than mine.

"It is said that science will turn people into numbers, but that is false, tragically false. This is the crematorium at Auschwiz. This is where people were turned into numbers, and that was not done by science, it was not done by gas, it was done by arrogance. When people think they have access to truth with no objective test in reality then this is how they behave. ... We have to cure ourselves of the itch for absolute power and absolute knowlege. We have to close the distance between the push button order and the human act. We have to touch people." - Jacob Bronowski.

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 01:44 PM

Bravo Jon W. Well put and historically accurate. I think Kat's mention of the language deficiencies make a lot of sense as well. New words (or phrases) are not that hard to throw out on to the playing field. I should know as "blue clicky thing" haunts me to this day. From now on I'm going to try and use the term "ethically correct" (EC) wherever I can. It accurately represents how I feel and appears not to be stigmatized as yet.

Rick

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: Jon W.
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 01:37 PM

"Politically Correct" was never a complimentary term in my opinion. Its origins are from totalitarian societies - Orwellian societies really - where having the "correct" political point of view is or was considered just as empirical as having the correct scientific point of view, as if a political point of view could be proven correct by application of political theory. Therefore the connotation of one person telling another thet the second person's viewpoint isn't "politcally correct" is that the first person is going to force some bit of politcal dogma on the second person until the second person begins to profess a different viewpoint - simply because the diffent viewpoint is that which is adhered to by the authorities. Politically correct is not the same as morally or ethically correct.

When I say, as I have in various postings in the past, that I hate political correctness, it does not mean that I like to use or do use pejorative terms for people of other ethnicity, sexuality, or ability. It means that I dislike the "absurd moral rigidity" that Peter T. so eloquently describes above, although I believe I would have said "absurd ammoral rigidity" as I see nothing moral whatsoever in people saying only what they have been carefully coached to say rather than thinking these things through for themselves and putting themselves in the other's position.

Up with true kindness and consideration of other's feelings and dignity, down with mindless political correctness.

Jon W.

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 01:14 PM

I love you guys! Mudcatters are the greatest! Peter, I am appalled at what happened to the museum and esp. that the woman lost her job. When we lived in Northampton, MA, that kind of exhibit would have been embraced for the exposure that it was, and Noho was a very pc town at the time.

I guess what I would like to see, then, since pc has been preempted by the right, etc., is for a new term, perhaps pc in extremis? Of course, we'd never get those of the Rush variety to use such a term. Oh, fock, it's just such an inexact language sometimes! I guess I could say I am "enlightened correct". I like sophocleese's statement. Actually, I like all of your statements.

Thanks, kat

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 01:05 PM

In Ontario "PC" means the Progressive Conservative Party which rules our little corner of the world. In "that" context it's a dirty little two letter word in our house, 'cause they may be conservative but they ain't progressive!

Rick

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: Easy Rider
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 12:48 PM

"Politically Correct" has become a derogatory term, meant to accuse someone of insincerity. It is used by bigots and bullies to insult their opponents and critics, and, as such, it is verbal abuse. It neither enhances the bully's argument nor discredits his/her opponent's, when understood for what it is.

EZR

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: sophocleese
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 12:36 PM

Politically correct was originally a decent enough term to describe people who were trying, sometimes a little too earnestly, to learn a different world view. As it entered the popular lexicon the term was quickly pre-empted by the right as a pejorative term in order to prevent intelligent, compassionate discussion about necessary issues. Thus it's use was poisoned fairly early on. When being politically correct means investigating the origins of the things I buy to be sure that they were produced in fair conditions and the workers are getting a decent wage. When politically correct means re-using and recycling everything possible in the house then I am politically correct. But like the word feminism it means different things to different people. All I can do is live the way I live and call it politically correct when I think it is and know that I am being lead from decent motives not derogatory ones.

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 12:22 PM

Kat- I think "politically correct" is one of those perjorative terms applied by the opponents of reform to it's proponents, much like the term pro-abortion. Outlandish examples of political correctness are used to damn what would otherwise be a fresh way of examining old problems. For example, calling a thief "ethics-deficient", calling a cowboy a cowperson, etc. I don't think I would want to lump myself in with the type of people who would use ridiculous or laughable terms like these. I also find that there is such a thing as a "fad" term. When I was a kid, African-Americans were called "colored" or "Negro" people by others who didn't use the less enlightened terms. When I entered college, I remember saying that a teacher was colored, and having a fellow student reply in a very patronizing manner " Oh, REALLY...and what color is he?" The preferred term was now "black", a term which had once been a negative one, but was now reckoned a reasonable alternative to "white." I eventually developed the habit of calling black people "black", to now find that that word is again becoming perjorative, and now it should be "African-American."

Let me assure you that I am with you as regards ignorance, prejudice, and hurtful names and terms, Kat. I just think that "politically correct" may actually be one of them; a term that fits more comfortably in the mouths of the Rush Limbaughs of this world than it does in the mouths of the Martin Luther Kings.

LEJ

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: MMario
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 12:15 PM

KatL - if only your definition of political correctness were the one in widespread use....
but for many, political correctness is being harrassed at work for sexist attitudes because one DARED use "chairman" in a memo rather then "chairperson"; or being suspended from work because one happened to call a co-worker "dear"; and many, many similair circumstances.

YES - Political correctness SHOULD be about caring about other people's feelings and respect for them and their feelings. Too often it goes far beyond that point. And THAT is why people use PC as if it were a dirty word.

Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 12:09 PM

I'm a MAC person myself, but I am prepared to reach across the great divide and embrace you Kat, anytime.

Seriously, I think that political correctness is a useful term when it is focussed on absurd moral rigidity. For instance, at the Royal Ontario Museum in Canada, there was an exhibition in good faith about the imperialist policies of the Museum and the "vision of empire" that led to the stealing of trinkets from all over the world. There were posters and quotations from various imperialists. It was the first time the Museum ever acknowledged that it had acquired things in a very different cultural situation, and was an honest attempt to start a discussion about what its future policies for acquisition.
The result of this brave attempt to look at its past?

The Museum was picketed during the exhibition for racism. The person who mounted the exhibition lost her job because of protests against imperialism by a coalition of the "official ethnic spokespeople" in the city. They simply protested against any representation of imperialism at all, as if any such representation was dangerous.
According to them these things should be expunged from the records of human history: no one should ever learn anything about them in order to fight them in future, because there is a chance that someone might be convinced the wrong way by the portrayal of these things. This is political correctness at work. It leads to the idea that people are fragile creatures who cannot be exposed to bad ideas, and can be permanently infected by these words, ideas, images, rather than be allowed think about them for themselves, weigh them, and make their own judgements.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 11:30 AM

I have had with hearing people use the acronym "PC" for political correctnes, as though it is a dirty word or somehow wrong. I know there are a lot of you who think it has gone overboard and that may be in some instances.

When I think of pc, when I speak or write, I believe it to be an issue of equality and respect for diversity. I consider it an improvement that my mixed race grandsons will not automatically be called a derogaroty term just because of the colour of their skin, nor will they have to drink from separate water fountains than their mother, my daughter.

I contend that it does not hurt anything or anyone to use a less than hurtful term in place of those of the past.

Becasue we've discussed this a little bit way back in, I think it was the Xenophobia thread, let me be clear before you jump in: I am not talking about changing words to folk songs, esp. those used by reenactors. And, we've also discussed including, or not, some possibly offensive songs in the Song Appropriateness Thread.

It is not wrong to care about others feelings and I feel that is what pc is about, or at least should be, as well as respect.

So, I am proud to say, I am PC!

kat