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100 sings that changed history?

Dave the Gnome 09 Sep 11 - 02:12 PM
Rapparee 09 Sep 11 - 02:19 PM
Deckman 09 Sep 11 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,Eliza 09 Sep 11 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 09 Sep 11 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,Lighter 09 Sep 11 - 03:16 PM
Paul Burke 09 Sep 11 - 03:20 PM
Gibb Sahib 09 Sep 11 - 03:31 PM
Amos 09 Sep 11 - 03:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Sep 11 - 06:10 PM
BobKnight 09 Sep 11 - 08:54 PM
GUEST,julia L 09 Sep 11 - 09:08 PM
GUEST,Lighter 09 Sep 11 - 09:48 PM
Gurney 10 Sep 11 - 04:08 AM
DMcG 10 Sep 11 - 04:14 AM
Marje 10 Sep 11 - 04:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Sep 11 - 04:22 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 10 Sep 11 - 04:56 AM
GUEST 10 Sep 11 - 08:13 AM
Roberto 10 Sep 11 - 08:22 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Sep 11 - 11:53 AM
Amos 10 Sep 11 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,obscureed 10 Sep 11 - 01:45 PM
MikeL2 10 Sep 11 - 02:37 PM
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Subject: 100 sings that changed history?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 02:12 PM

I posted this link on another thread but it is too good to leave there!

I don't want to comment on any of the choices myself but I will start the arguments if you like...

I don't believe that songs change history. Well, not any more. When song was the way to get to people then yes, maybe, but now other media is far more powerful. So while some of the songs could well have changed history in the past I don't think they do any more. They reflect and report but at best just change fashions. Which is something that someone described as that awful it need to be changed every few months anyway:-)

Enjoy

:D tG


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 02:19 PM

"We Shall Overcome."


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: Deckman
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 02:28 PM

Go Down You Murders


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 02:30 PM

We Don't Need No Education (Pink Floyd)


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 03:01 PM

100 ? not ONE.

Hoot


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 03:16 PM

No song has changed history.

For a song to have "changed history," human beings would have to react to brief intellectual stimuli like your knee to the doctor's rubber hammer. They hear something a few times and bam! they swing into action!

Dream on.

Of course, if all "changed history" really means is "drifted in and out of consciousness while countless other related, but far more powerful and influential, things are actively being done, mostly by other people," then I suppose no one could argue.


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 03:20 PM

The Mayonnaise
The Reb Flag
Ten Green Bottles
I'm Henery the Eighth I Am
The Halloumi Chorus


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 03:31 PM

Lighter,

I suppose if we wanted to be completely literal we could say that, since history is the presentation/study of/record of events, not the past events themselves...then many songs have changed that. People's sense of things that have happened is influenced by songs.


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 03:36 PM

THe Strangest Dream
The Marsellaise
Yankee Doodle
Which Side Are You On?
The Bonnie Blue Flag
Deutschland, Deautschland, Uber Alles
Kevin Barry
The Internationale

just to name a few off the top of my head. Not one??? Pffft.


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 06:10 PM

We shall overcome - Number 82.
The Internationale - Number 76

No others I am afraid.

Paul - You missed The Spar Strangled Banner and Yes sir, I can boogie..

:D


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: BobKnight
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 08:54 PM

Love Me Do - as the first release by the Beatles who undoubtedly changed the world.


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: GUEST,julia L
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 09:08 PM

Lovewell's fight (The Battle of Pequacket) was used as rallying cry for depriving the Native Americans of their lands for 100 years....

powerful stuff

Julia


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 09:48 PM

Explain exactly how any one of the songs mentioned "changed history" in the generally understood sense of "made dramatic events happen that wouldn't have happened otherwise."


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: Gurney
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 04:08 AM

My thought exactly, Lighter.


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 04:14 AM

While that's a valid interpretation of "change history" I would say it is far from the only one. I suspect it is quite common for a song to *help* bind a loose collection of individuals and small group groups into a single group with a cause which can then go on to do dramatic things, but it is near unheard of for a song to initiate such events.

Then there's the "Seeds of Love" effect. Whatever you think of C# and his influence on collecting folk song, promotion and all the rest, his effect is certainly important. If someone else had done it - for example if Kidson and co had been left to their approach - we'd have ended up somewhere else. So undoubtedly the song did change the world, but even the most enthuiastic would be hard pushed to describe it as a dramatic event.


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: Marje
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 04:20 AM

I don't think anyone could dispute that great ideas (both good and bad) can change history; songs can often reflect and develop such ideas, help to spread them and make them popular, often adding an emotional layer that helps them spread and be absorbed. You only have to look at footage of big political rallies and demonstrations, both pro- and anti-state, to see how songs have been used to stir the spirit and reinforce the message.

So although any one song on its own may not be responsible for changing history, I'm perfectly certain that songs (along with books, speeches, films, print media, and broadcasts) have played a part in many historical movements.

Marje


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 04:22 AM

Who are you asking the question of, Lighter? For my own POV you need to see the initial post but the opening words in the article say

Inspired (kind of) by Pete Seeger's quote that 'the right song at the right time can change history', Time Out assembled a panel of musicians, historians and enthusiasts to debate and collate the 100 songs which have had the most significant impact on real-world events ? culturally, socially and politically.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 04:56 AM

I think, in all honesty, no song has changed history as such - that is a myth perpetuated by conceited songwriters. However, there are songs which can be considered as groundbreaking in musical terms - songs which changed musical history; songs after which nothing would be the same again. I'm sure you can all think of a few of these, but I'm just suggesting one on which a whole era turned.

So, play it loud & rejoice that it happened at all, for even though it's effectively a cover-vesion of 2 other songs rolled into one (it is, after all, integral to the Living Process of Popular Traditional Musical) how different the world would be now without this song. The year (astonishingly) in 1963...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXLqMB6vBic


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 08:13 AM

"Seeds of Love" is on the list, at No 45:

Rob says: 'This song started off the idea of professionally collecting music. No one knows exactly when it dates from ? it may have been written in the late 1600s ? but it was sung on one morning in 1903 in the Somerset village of Hambridge by a gardener called John England. Cecil Sharpe happened to be wandering past, heard John England singing this song, and it sparked off some sort of reverence in Sharpe. It made him take out a notebook and write down the words this guy was singing. That day he wrote a piano accompaniment, and it was performed that night at the vicarage in the local village by a local woman. That was the first time Cecil Sharpe had been inspired to collect a song, which then became his career.'

He then started collecting folk songs ? mainly in the south of England, but later went to America to find the ones which had been preserved and taken across the Atlantic. Sharpe wasn't the first collector of folk songs but up until then it had largely been an amateur pursuit, more a kind of hobby like collecting antiques. He was the first one to see it as an opportunity to publish books of these songs. He pushed to have folk music taught in schools across the country, and a lot of folk singers like Shirley Collins and Martin Carthy do remember having to stand up and sing songs in the class room during the 1940s, so it did have an effect. And all because that song was sung at that particular time. It really was a defining moment.'



This rather overstates the case. Sharp wasn't the first collector, even in England (never mind elsewhere), although he did have the visions and energy to pick up the ball and run with it. But it was the meeting with John England which was the defining moment, rather than the song - it just happened to be "Seeds of Love" but could quite easily been a different song.

Like many of the songs in the list, the song was a bystander at a historic event, rather than the catalyst which actually changed something. There's no doubt that songs can be powerful agents, but I doubt any of them "changed history" by themselves.


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 08:22 AM

I've read, I can't remember where, that Lilliburlero had a very strong political impact on thepolitical situation at its time.


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 11:53 AM

"Lilliburlero had a very strong political impact"
Some of the information I gathered for a talk on Song and History" on the song which is said to have "sung a king out of three nations".
Jim Carroll

According to legend this tune first appears in 1641 in Ulster. Richard Talbot (1630-1691), a Catholic and royalist, had been made Earl of Tyrconnel after the Restoration and King James II later appointed him Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1686). He pursued strong pro-Catholic policies. Even after James was deposed in England Tyrconnel governed Ireland in James' name. Irish Catholic forces were eventually defeated by William. English and Irish Protestants took up the song as their melody during that time.
According to one source the words "lillibulero" and "bullen al-a" were used as a rallying cry for the Irish to recognize one another in the uprising in 1641. Later (1687) Thomas, Lord Wharton (1640-1715), wrote a set of satirical verses titled Lillibolero regarding the Irish problems and set them to a melody arranged by Henry Purcell in 1678. Purcell's arrangement was based on an older tune under the name Quickstep which appeared in Robert Carr's Delightful Companion (1686). It became popular immediately. After the Stuarts were deposed, Lord Wharton, a strong supporter of William III, boasted that he had "rhymed James out of three kingdoms" with his tune.*
However, Irish writer Brendan Behan claimed the words of the chorus were a corruption of the Gaelic: "An lili ba leir e, ba linn an la" - roughly "The lily won the day for us."** A forum post at Digital Tradition reveals that according to Sources of Irish Traditional Music (1998) it translates as: Lilli/ bu le'ir o/, bu linn an la/ - Lilli will be manifest, the day will be ours. William Lilly (1602-1681) was a famous astrologer who made predictions regarding British politics of the time. One prediction was the Prophecy of the White King (made in 1644 after Marston Moor), which predicted a King would be beheaded or killed. Lilly wrote a letter to Charles I warning him of the prophecy Anther theory, from Songs That Made History by H. E. Piggot, states the refrain came from a popular Irish song when James II (a Roman Catholic) came to the throne which had the Irish words, "Lere, lere, burlere." Lere meant religion or faith and burlere meant your faith. Piggot says a form of the tune was printed in 1661 in An Antidote against Melancholy which was set to words beginning There was an old man of Waltham Cross.
Wharton never publicly supported the Stuarts. As a member of the House of Commons Wharton supported the bill to bar James from the succession because of his Catholicism. When William won the war, Wharton was given prominent posts. There is speculation that Wharton referred to the Lilly prophecy, and used the Gaelic words to disguise them because when he wrote the words the Stuarts were still in power.
John Gay used the tune in The Beggar's Opera. It was the British Broadcasting Corporation's signature theme during World War II.
"Brother Teague" was then the nickname of the Irishmen (as "John Bull" would later be for Englishmen).


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 01:10 PM

This one is interesting--regarding the Byzantine Acclamation, a song performed by priests acknowledging the God-given right of a ruler:


    'The Byzantine Acclamation' ? Traditional (fifth century)
    Chosen by Bettany Hughes, research fellow at King's College London, fellow Of the Historical Association, New York Times bestselling author and TV/radio broadcaster

    Bettany says: 'Back in fifth century Byzantium ? known as Istanbul today ? you had the first combination of church and state. And in order for the crowning ceremony of the emperor and empress to be considered complete, there had to be this sung acclamation from all the Byzantine priests, which effectively said: "God has given you the right to have power over us." It changed history because it was the first attempt by a monarch to claim that they had a divine right to rule. And for the next fifteen hundred years, virtually every other ruler followed suit. If you think about world history, it's been the way it has because it was ruled by monarchs who said they had the right to rule because God gave it to them"


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: GUEST,obscureed
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 01:45 PM

Surely Billy Holiday had some influence on public attitudes to race in the USA? And surely that influence would have been lessened without the song "Strange Fruit"?

OK, so that's only part of one person's influence. There are many other songs that sustained a movement (the Marseillaise, early Negro Spirituals, "We Will Overcome", The Manchester Rambler, etc). For a really decisive influence, I'll quote from a scholarly article (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01411897908574506, of which I'll admit I've read only the free sample):

It is accepted as a fact of musical history that a performance in Brussels on the 25th of August, 1830, of Auber's opera, "La Muette de Portici", precipitated the revolution which led, eventually, to the establishment of Belgium as an independent nation.


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Subject: RE: 100 sings that changed history?
From: MikeL2
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 02:37 PM

hi

Rock Around the Clock.

Certainly contributed greatly to a change in teenage behaviour.

Cheers

Mike


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