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BS: class warfare

dick greenhaus 19 Sep 11 - 12:41 PM
Richard Bridge 19 Sep 11 - 01:19 PM
Lighter 19 Sep 11 - 01:34 PM
kendall 19 Sep 11 - 02:51 PM
Bill D 19 Sep 11 - 02:58 PM
Greg F. 19 Sep 11 - 03:11 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Sep 11 - 04:01 PM
Teribus 19 Sep 11 - 04:05 PM
Lighter 19 Sep 11 - 04:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Sep 11 - 05:14 PM
Greg F. 19 Sep 11 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,number 6 19 Sep 11 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,number 6 19 Sep 11 - 05:41 PM
Richard Bridge 19 Sep 11 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,999 19 Sep 11 - 07:29 PM
Joe_F 19 Sep 11 - 08:02 PM
GUEST,kendall 19 Sep 11 - 08:04 PM
GUEST 19 Sep 11 - 08:14 PM
Bobert 19 Sep 11 - 08:40 PM
Rapparee 19 Sep 11 - 09:24 PM
GUEST,number 6 19 Sep 11 - 09:33 PM
Rapparee 19 Sep 11 - 09:38 PM
Bobert 19 Sep 11 - 09:46 PM
MarkS 19 Sep 11 - 11:20 PM
katlaughing 19 Sep 11 - 11:52 PM
GUEST 20 Sep 11 - 12:33 AM
Les in Chorlton 20 Sep 11 - 03:12 AM
Richard Bridge 20 Sep 11 - 03:16 AM
Les in Chorlton 20 Sep 11 - 03:39 AM
Lighter 20 Sep 11 - 08:10 AM
Les in Chorlton 20 Sep 11 - 08:18 AM
Richard Bridge 20 Sep 11 - 08:35 AM
Bobert 20 Sep 11 - 08:53 AM
Arkie 20 Sep 11 - 09:20 AM
Greg F. 20 Sep 11 - 10:05 AM
Lighter 20 Sep 11 - 10:20 AM
Rapparee 20 Sep 11 - 10:23 AM
Les in Chorlton 20 Sep 11 - 10:40 AM
Lighter 20 Sep 11 - 11:57 AM
Rapparee 20 Sep 11 - 03:03 PM
Lighter 20 Sep 11 - 03:17 PM
Lighter 20 Sep 11 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Sep 11 - 03:39 PM
GUEST 20 Sep 11 - 04:15 PM
John P 20 Sep 11 - 04:17 PM
dick greenhaus 20 Sep 11 - 04:32 PM
Bobert 20 Sep 11 - 05:19 PM
John P 20 Sep 11 - 08:05 PM
Rapparee 20 Sep 11 - 08:50 PM
ollaimh 20 Sep 11 - 11:03 PM

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Subject: BS: class warfare
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 12:41 PM

THis seems to be the republican response to proposals that we raise taxes on people whose taxable income (NOT WHOSE NET WORTH)exceeds one million dollars. This represents 0.08% of the population.

SEems to me that class warfare has been going on now for several decades now, an it' only being called war when the folks who have been under attack start to fight back.
"Small Businesses " who pay no tax (such as Bank of America and GE) have been demonstrating their 'job-creating" powers with massive lay-offs.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 01:19 PM

It is IMHO a very American idea to confuse wealth and class.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 01:34 PM

It's a "kinder, gentler" kind of class warfare.

What's odd is how they expect the average voter, who doesn't even own a business, to react to the charge. Does an office manager earning double digits care if it's "class warfare"? She's not affected.

Might the Republicans be getting desperate?


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: kendall
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 02:51 PM

It's a "Red herring"


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 02:58 PM

The Republicans DO know who put them in that nice job and who pays for most of their re-elections.

At least they are honest...
"An honest politician is one who stays bought."


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 03:11 PM

What's odd is how they expect the average voter...

ODD?

The "average voter" AGREES with the Republicans & their buzz words of class warfare, creeping socialism, socialized medicine & all the rest and would vote Republican tomorrow - despite the fact that its demonstrably against their own interests - as they have since Nixon/Reagan.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 04:01 PM

Democracy is leading to the downfall of "western" nations. The Chinese, not burdened with this silly notion, are forging ahead.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 04:05 PM

So Q go live and work in China and be unburdened by all "our" silly notions.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 04:42 PM

> The "average voter" AGREES with the Republicans & their buzz words

Polls show this may not be true. Independents dislike Obama, but they seem to dislike Republican obstructionism even more. Republicans boast that they won't support any bill that raises taxes by a penny, no matter what else it might cut. They're not even trying to find a way to spin villainous "tax hikes" into reassuring "new revenues," even though they were able to do so when Bush, Sr., was in office.

And at this point, I wonder how many outside the Tea Party even recognize "class warfare" as an allusion to socialism. Remember, two-fifths of adults reject the theory of evolution.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 05:14 PM

Rejection of evolution theory reminds me of my days in university when I assisted in various biology and geology classes. I had a lecture on evolution and mutation and received a lot of flack from the Newman Club/Center and another Catholic student organization.
This was years ago, but this organization still seems to be strong on many campuses.

I did not say that I would prefer to live under the Chinese system of government, but its unified development is currently more efficient in creating capital wealth and expanding the middle class- only the Germans in the west seem to be keeping pace. The U.S. seems to be losing ground to the Asian models.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 05:23 PM

I wonder how many outside the Tea Party even recognize "class warfare" as an allusion to socialism

Since the Tea Potty doesn't know what socialism IS, they don't recognize it either.

Then there's false class consciousness....


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 05:39 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c13q2wYZr_0&feature=related

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 05:41 PM

ooooops .... here it is

Where is Warren Beatty when we need him

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 06:38 PM

I suspect that the "average voter" is simply reacting like a Pavlovian dog and has no idea what s actually happening, thanks largely to the dumbing down of US media and the wall of fascistic shite that much of it produces.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 07:29 PM

Some folks think ballots. Many who have 'lost the faith' think bullets.

When the day ends, I guess the winners write the history.

Let me know who won the election.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Joe_F
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 08:02 PM

Polls have shown that most young people have vastly exaggerated notions of their own future income. They are against taxing the rich because they expect to be rich themselves. There is no end to the foolishness of this world.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 08:04 PM

They need Faux noise to find out what to think.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 08:14 PM

Here is a link to a study done a few years ago. The conclusion is that Americans believe that wealth is much more evenly distributed here than it actually is and, moreover, they would like it to be even more evenly distributed than they believe it to be.

(The link is a PDF file)

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 08:40 PM

Of course, this is class warfare... The war was declared in 1982 when Reagan installed voodoo, trickle-down economics... Over the last 30 years the Repubs have won all the battles... Now that it looks as if they have a real fight on their hands they are crying "class warfare"...

Purdy hypocritical...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 09:24 PM

If something isn't done there WILL be 'class warfare' -- the kind where blood flows in the streets. And the 'common folk' in the US have enough guns in their hands to do a job of it.

Even here in Bright Red Idaho folks are getting fed up...and if you know history you'll know that it was in Idaho that there WAS 'class warfare'.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 09:33 PM

That's the spirit Rap !!

now kids let all go out and sing loudly, sing it loud and clear!

Hell .... we don't need no Warren Beatty, we can do it ourselves

3rd stanza of the Internationale ...

"The State oppresses and the law cheats
Tax bleeds the unfortunate
No duty is imposed on the rich
The rights of the poor is an empty phrase
Enough languishing in custody
Equality wants other laws:
No rights without duties, she says,
Equally, no duties without rights
|: This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race"

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 09:38 PM

Remember, Come The Revolution I'm shooting at BOTH sides.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 09:46 PM

Settle down, Rap... Shooting at both sides ain't all that smart if one side are the friends and the other side your enemies...

Put the gun down, go to the kitchen, open the Frigidaire, get you a cold Iron City Beer, and chill...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: MarkS
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 11:20 PM

Iron City??!!??
Does anybody still drink that stuff?


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 11:52 PM

there are some interesting comments on npr.org's story on this today.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 12:33 AM

Poster is 999.
"Shooting at both sides ain't all that smart if one side are the friends and the other side your enemies..."

Bobert, you and I have been friends. I know you'd never supply me with bullets. But after you don't, how will I tell my kids that their dad was a chickenshit?


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 03:12 AM

Isn't The USA the richest country because it is full of natural resources?

Isn't your 'demoratic' system so distorted by the the power of the rich to own and control the means of communication that it is barely democratic at all.

Is it just for some people to get paid thousands of times more than others and to own and control millions of dollars in capital in a country where the poor cannot afford decent food, health care and quality education?

Is that what you want? Do you really want people like Sarah Palin and The Republican Party who are clearly both ignorant of all kinds of ordinary facts and stupid enough to neither know nor care?

L in C#


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 03:16 AM

At present, Les, President Obama's very correct assertion, that it cannot be right for the lower and middle classes to pay greater proportions of their incomes in tax than (say) Warren Buffet, is apparently being spun in the USA as rampant socialism.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 03:39 AM

True enough Richard, Obama can only do what can be done given the powerfull enemies that surround him - not least Fox News. Like Jimmy Carter he will eventually be seen for the best bet the US have had in a very long time.

L in C#


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 08:10 AM

> apparently being spun in the USA as rampant socialism

Yes and no. Oddly, I haven't heard the "S" word being tossed around for a year or two. Now the "B" word ("birth certificate"), that's another story.

What many people don't realize is that huge corporations donate plenty to both parties, so as to hedge their bets. The Republicans get more, it's true. But if it were just a case of "buying" politicians, you;d see the Democrats being just as conservative as the GOP, as well as falling all over themselves to "earn" more.

So my guess is that both parties mostly believe what they say.

History shows that raising taxes during a recession has sometimes helped the economy and sometimes hasn't. In most ways the recession is over, in one big way - unemployment - it isn't. I think the GOP, as clueless as everybody else in addition to its many other failings, is just falling back on its foundational belief that the Federal government should do as little as possible domestically aside from encouraging business. How to encourage business? Who knows? So, go to perennial Plan A: lower taxes on businesses. Then they'll use that extra money to make more jobs. (Of course, they've had lower taxes for ten years and that didn't make much difference.)

The GOP's credibility outside its "base" (i.e., right-wing fanatics) will be close to zero until it comes up with an innovative economic plan of its own, maybe in the guise of "comprehensive tax reform" that really eliminates loopholes. But innovation is abhorrent to conservatives. Unlike the way it once was, compromise is now pretty much abhorrent to them as well.

Voters may go Republican simply because the Dems won't be able to make things improve as fast as people would like. (Remember, things *are* trending upward, but at a snail's pace.) If the Reoublicans have any appeal to independents at all, it will be based solely on their intransigence. Intransigence is seen as much more of a virtue than it used to be.

So stay tuned.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 08:18 AM

Ms/ Mr Lighter, why are the poor so poor in your rich country?

L in C#


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 08:35 AM

Reagan's voodoo economics, and the Shrub's total stupidity.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 08:53 AM

Listen here, brucie...

Ol' Bobert got yer back... You wanta shoot back then I'll be there with straps of 50 cal. machine gun rounds hanging on me like Spanish moss... Just don't shoot me, ya' hear???

There are two very distinct camps here... One wants an Ayn Rand world where people get crushed to death by the most corrupt and the best cheaters and the other wants more equality and more univeral opportunity to succeed...

Count me in the second one and I know you (an Rap) are in the second one... Hey, it ain't about being no chickenshit... I been arrested once fighting for civil rights and twice fighting to end the Vietnam War.. Different ways of fighting but, like I said, if it ever comes down to these Tea Party folks coming at me with their guns then I got guns, too, and plenty of ammo...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Arkie
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 09:20 AM

As far as I can tell the GOP has two answers for the economy; cut taxes and eliminate regulation. I would think the economy would improve if the 50% of the population now considered poor had money to spend. Concentrating wealth does not improve the economy, and I still remember John McCain's ridiculing the concept of spreading the wealth around. According to the link below "deregulation" of the broadband in the USA eliminated competition and gave AT&T, Comcast, and Verizon just about complete control resulting in higher prices for consumers for less quality and speed.

broadband


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 10:05 AM

the GOP has two answers for the economy; cut taxes and eliminate regulation

Yup, they're still championing the same two things (with Union-Busting added) that Reagan used to put the country on a downwatrd spiral and resulted in the shithole the U.S. of A. is in now.

They're either too stupid to know, or too mendacious to admit, that their program has been an abject failure over the last 30 years.

And a large segment of the pupulation is even more stupid to support them.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 10:20 AM

> why are the poor so poor in your rich country?

Largely because of the laws of mathematics and economics. It is far easier for a middle-class person to become a millionaire than it is for a poor person to become middle class.

Why? Because those who have money to invest in a growing economy have will in general make far more money than those who don't or can't invest. And if they invest wisely, they'll eventually have enough to sustain losses that would wipe out most people, and still bounce back to make even more.

The poor are likely to stay poor because they have no opportunity to save, much less invest.

Second, wealth - even middle-class wealth - creates educational opportunities which can lead to very high-paying jobs. A recent study of multi-millionaires discovered that most of them had gotten rich, not through inheritance, but through earning $100,000/yr. and more year after year after year, spending prudently, and investing wisely (or luckily).

Third, the really poor live in drug-ridden, crime-infested neighborhoods that nobody wants to invest in. Furthermore, there's a "cycle of poverty." Because of the lack of economic opportunity, families stay poor for generations. More subtly, they become increasingly alienated from the education that might help them. Poverty encourages kids to leave school for minimum-wage jobs (or else high-paying drug-selling and prostitution jobs that make the neighborhoods worse).

If you doubt any of this, consider: without Social Security and Medicare, poverty would be even worse. But not even these giant Federal programs, which are socialistic by definition, have kept the poverty level from rising and rising. Wealth is rising and rising too, but that, in and of itself, isn't the problem.

Bottom line: Money begets money; no money begets no money.

Now wouldn't it be a lot simpler if billionaires were just "buying" Congressmen's collusion in sleazy, back-alley deals? Not that they aren't, but the real issue is economics, not bribery.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 10:23 AM

"The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over."
                                                 ― Joseph Goebbels

You associate with people of like beliefs, and eventually you believe that everyone thinks the same way. Conflict arises when you find out that they do not, and you then battle to prove the superiority of your belief system.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 10:40 AM

Thanks Ms/Mr Lighter that's very clear and well written - and what I have failed to say in a long time.

Now, for the way out?

L in C#


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 11:57 AM

If I knew that, I'd be King!

(Hmmmm.... bigger house... servants... maybe the voters are ready...)


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 03:03 PM

But doesn't there also have to be the will to want out? I know quite a few people who were born into poverty, some of them into poverty so deep that they ate the leftovers from others' houses, and yet were able to rise above it by education and determination to succeed.

WERE true class warfare to break out in the US or the UK, I'm not sure but that the poor would simply be led by new masters, a la "Animal Farm" or North Korea or the old Soviet Union.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 03:17 PM

> the poor would simply be led by new masters, a la "Animal Farm" or North Korea or the old Soviet Union.

The verdict of history seems pretty clear on that one.

As to rising above poverty: Of course, some highly motivated and unusually fortunate (or should I say, "unfortunately unusual") people can wind up with a decent (legal) income no matter what circumstances they were born into.

The point is that, statistically, most poor people don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 03:27 PM

And dig this for humor:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/rep-john-fleming-field-criticism-over-600k-income-153305241.html


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 03:39 PM

A huge problem is that here in America, people confuse the 'pursuit of happiness' with the pursuit of material gain.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 04:15 PM

Greg says:
They're either too stupid to know, or too mendacious to admit, that their program has been an abject failure over the last 30 years.

Actually, their program has been hugely successful, in that they got what they wanted: even more of the money concentrated in the hands of a few. They've also, apparently, been successful at convincing a large portion of Americans that cut and slash is good for normal citizens. What they are too mendacious to admit is that they don't really care about anyone who isn't a billionaire.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: John P
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 04:17 PM

Oops, that last was cookieless me.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 04:32 PM

Don't any of them there idiots know the difference between gross sales and taxable income?


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 05:19 PM

When George W. Bush came into office there were a lot of folks on the brink of becoming millionaires and hundreds of thousands of new millionaires (on paper)... When George Bush left office the trend was reversed and lots of new millionaires fell back to under $1M in net worth...

However, old money was sitting better than ever...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: John P
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 08:05 PM

I know quite a few people who were born into poverty, some of them into poverty so deep that they ate the leftovers from others' houses, and yet were able to rise above it by education and determination to succeed.

I think the problem is, in part, that poor people have to be exceptionally bright, dedicated, and lucky to rise above it. Rich people don't need any of those things.

As someone who has been considering going back to school, I have to say that education has become available primarily to the rich. Yes, I could get grants and scholarships, but that means I end up working twice as hard to get the same thing that a rich person just writes a check for. Since I'm a middle-aged homeowner who needs to work a full time job, working twice as hard for an education isn't in the picture, nor are student loans.

A recent study of multi-millionaires discovered that most of them had gotten rich, not through inheritance, but through earning $100,000/yr. and more year after year after year, spending prudently, and investing wisely (or luckily).

Yes, not many poor people -- even the really talented ones -- end up earning $100,000 a year. They (we) simply can't afford the education that would allow them to get a job like that. My own opinion is that anyone earning that much is already rich . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 08:50 PM

If the parents don't care their children will continue that vicious cycle. I myself (and my siblings) barely escaped it, and that because our mother wouldn't have it any other way (e.g., there was ALWAYS money for library fines). Many of my friends were the first in their families to graduate from college, some the first to graduate from high school.

Let's see though: of those who I want to grade school and high school with and who came from what would be called "upper-middle class" families, one was imprisoned from wrongful use of public funds and another for embezzling enough to destroy the century-old family business. At least two others died of drug misuse. A couple became lawyers and one (who I now remember ALSO did time in the big house for fraud) was into "strategic metals."

Now, those of blue-collar parents and "lower": most (perhaps as many as 85%) are either college graduates or started/own their own business. Most served their time in the military, back during the 'Nam time, just as their parents did in WW2 and their grandparents in WW1. Not all, of course. But they did okay for themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: class warfare
From: ollaimh
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 11:03 PM

i do find it quite sad and sick that somany american really think their wealth--or former wealth is due to their political and economic system. when your military superiority delivers you a free continent full of resources you have to be a real screw up not to get rich from it. and is seems they are presently screwing the gift of millenia .

the increasingly delusional ideology in american politics is leading to increased economic decline. people have frogotten that exploiting the free continent needs work, and practical economic development. saving and invsting locally, producing at ones competitive advantage and governemt that regulates and has income to meet expenses. fisal conservativism.

now in canada we are going down the same rout, unfortunately. we had a decade of fiscal conservatism with the liberwls but now the tories have run the two largest deficits in canadian history, all the fund the tories 40% increase in federal spending. two thirds of that increase before the recession.

we have great resourses and a small enough population in northamerica to be prosperous forever but we have lost the commitment to sensible governance--both civil and corporate. it's a shame.

now i just hope i die before some one kills me to eat me.


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