Is English traditional music rubbish?

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 07:37 PM

Yep. Let's hope Jeremy sees this thread. It's outrageous that Dick Miles is allowed to get away with his illegal multiple identities, but he's made a career out of it for years. Nice one, Jack. I await the usual bleating denials from Dick with considerable glee. Shame we're not allowed to publish private messages!

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 07:26 PM

Who is Michael?

llig leahcim on TheSession.

Dick Miles changes his username regularly but his current identity can be found here: Dick Miles on TheSession

Currently inactive identity: Dick Miles (banned) on The Session

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:47 PM

Its all getting a bit complicated.

Who is Michael?

What can it all mean...?

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:33 PM

"York-based You Slosh with the legendary Troy Donockley." Legendary? Certainly not In York he isn't! Who?

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:05 PM

If you think it's an interesting subject I suggest you start a clean, new thread about it. This one is fatally tainted by the sheer dishonesty of the original poster.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: GUEST,Bruce Baillie
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 05:38 PM

...This thread is certainly shit!

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Gurney
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 05:14 PM

Aw, come on, guys! Can't we have opinions without the personal rancour? This is a pretty interesting subject.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 04:49 PM

What Dick also fails to report is that there's a bit of history between him and myself. This, as far as I can see, goes back to a fairly firm discussion that eventually resulted in him being booted off concertina.net, for both his public behaviour and the content of private messages I received.

When I started posting on Mudcat Dick on several occasions jumped me in a most unpleasant manner. Mind you, he initially got my goat and I responded in kind, which I regret.

Since there have been scuffles on thesession.org, where he posts under a number of ever changing aliases, while presently banned under his own name. At one point was put on notice by the webmaster that should he try contact me again via private message his account would be closed forthwith.

I entered a discussion on concertina.net some time ago with a poster called Martin Gibson, an alias, I have since learned, not unknown on Mudcat. I sussed who I was dealing with, which resulted in an immediate ban of that username from that forum.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 04:07 PM

"Beauty is in the ear of the bodhran holder".

"One man's garbage is another man's treasure. Unless you're a raccoon. Then it's basically all one category."

Wonderful comments! Thanks fellas!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 03:58 PM

I am commenting on a stupid statement that is in my opinion an insult to English Traditional music and Irish trad musicians.,and those people who wish to use this thread as an opportunity for having a go at me, [Vic and Peter] are illustrating the unpleasant side to their characters.
can we get back to the statement which insults both trad music and irish trad musicians

What you are very dishonestly failing to communicate to the readers of this thread is that you and Michael go back a very long way indeed in terms of having a bloody awful relationship, predicated mainly on the fact that he sussed you out as a charlatan a long time ago. You have picked on something you allege he said and ripped it out of a context which none of us can now go back to check (I read interesting-looking threads there every single day, but even I missed that one). You hoped to be able to insult him from afar, as he doesn't post here, because you know you can't get away with it there (what a coward you are), but you forget that many of us who do post here also post on TheSession. I'm utterly amazed than even you could have thought you'd get away with it. Shame on you.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 03:48 PM

Interesting to see Sandy Bells mentioned above. We had one of Ireland's all-time greatest traditional musicians staying here last week and he happens to live in Edinburgh. He said that he never goes to sessions at Bells any more because they only play jigs and reels at 100mph there these days and where, he said, is the enjoyment in that?

That isn't all that happens there - depends what time you go. Michael's session is Tuesday nights, I think. I've never met him or been to it, as far as I can remember, but I don't think he's a speed merchant.

Knowing the celebrity you mean, I can think of a few other reasons why he might not drop in there much these days. He's earned a rest, for starters.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 03:11 PM

Kenny - You have identified him and as you know him, you will realise that some of his statements have to be taken with a pinch of salt. It may still reflect correctly on his opinion, though. It would take more than a session not being fully to his taste to keep him away.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 02:58 PM

ANYone who would apply a term like rubbish to the whole of a musical genre has issues. Much the same as people who say, blues is the only music worth listening to. I have heard that said and I thought, what a twit. (That's not a typo.)

I could go for the rest of my life and never hear 'Boil Them Cabbage Down' and not be bothered. However, I have good friends who like the song, and just because it doesn't turn MY crank doesn't make it rubbish.

I have read some people on Mudcat who present themselves as "the last word" on various musics. Well, they ain't. They simply like what they like, and that's that. True, they may know lots about their chosen area of study, and that's cool, but when they diss the music that others like they become boors and bores.

I would expect the fellow who seems to be the subject of this thread was taken out of context. I hope so anyway.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 02:51 PM

Vic Smith - as far as I know, there is only one person living in Edinburgh who matches your description, and if you're referring to the flute/whistle player and singer who I think you are, he was playing in a session in Bells earlier that same afternoon.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 02:45 PM

I think Kenny has made the most relevant point here. It's just one man's opinion. The world teems with different opinions, and if we got steamed up every time someone said an "I think" that we disagreed with, we'd all go round in a permanent fury. (Hmmm... maybe some people do!)

Why not just say you disagree with him, and leave it at that? what do you hope to achieve with this? you're not going to change his mind through it. Clearly, English trad music is not rubbish per se - that is purely down to subjective opinion. What discussion is there to be had?

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 02:42 PM

Interesting to see Sandy Bells mentioned above. We had one of Ireland's all-time greatest traditional musicians staying here last week and he happens to live in Edinburgh. He said that he never goes to sessions at Bells any more because they only play jigs and reels at 100mph there these days and where, he said, is the enjoyment in that?

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 02:36 PM

Good to see Treewind contributing to this thread. Looking forward to seeing him and Mary again at Tenterden next weekend. I hope that we get a chance to play with him in a session again, especially if we can play some of that excellent rubbish that we both play.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 02:25 PM

well said Kenny.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Elmore
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 02:05 PM

OMG. I've spent 50 years listening to this stuff, and it turns out to be rubbish. Off to the opera then.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 02:01 PM

Depends how it's played, and in the opinion of the listener, - the same applies to any music.
I played a few tunes in "Sandy Bell's" with Michael Gill 4 weeks ago. He's a very good Irish fiddler, and certainly very forthright, and very often deliberately provocative, with his opinions on "thesession.org". If he thinks "all English music is rubbish" - an opinion which I, a Scotsman do not agree with - he is perfectly entitled to hold that opinion, and no one here or anywhere else can tell him he's wrong. It's HIS OPINION. Mind you, logically that statement can only be true if he has heard ALL English traditional music, which is of course impossible. "The English traditional music I've heard is rubbish" is entirely possible - depends what he's been listening to.
Perhaps you good people would like to suggest some English traditional music recordings which might change his opinion. I'll see that any suggestions are passed on to him.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: GUEST,Jollity Farm
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 02:01 PM

Our club had been considering booking Dick Miles for an event next year. We won't be doing so now.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 01:58 PM

Which side of your character are you displaying here. Dick?

The petty side?

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 01:45 PM

Peter, yes I am saying that
you are correct, I got suspended from the session for a year for changing my user name to llig leachim, it was a joke, incidentally there is absolutely nothing in the rules of www.session.org, to say that a user cannot have a similiar name to another user.
Jack Gilder was also suspended for a year at the same time when in fact HE SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN SUSPENDED AT ALL, someone else on that particular thread should have been suspended, and again it was someone who insulted irish trad musicians in ireland
incidentally llig has been suspended many times from www.session.org.
I have never made any comment on the musicianship of Llig, I am commenting on a stupid statement that is in my opinion an insult to English Traditional music and Irish trad musicians.,and those people who wish to use this thread as an opportunity for having a go at me, [Vic and Peter] are illustrating the unpleasant side to their characters.
can we get back to the statement which insults both trad music and irish trad musicians

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 01:02 PM

"Is English traditional music rubbish?"

While lookin' around the www I tripped over the following:

"One man's garbage is another man's treasure. Unless you're a raccoon. Then it's basically all one category."

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 12:59 PM

By jingo it's British rubbish - Fred Wedlock, The Folker. BTW.

Another quote from the same song

I only sing traditional with my finger in my ear
coz half the tripe I'm singing, I just can't stand to hear
It's a load of cob-li-aarrrrs

A much better attitude to trad folk than some. In my opinion of course.

:D tG

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 12:44 PM

Lesson one:-
"Don't feed the troll."

If it is not obvious who the troll is, just read through this thread and see who is making most insults and causing most offence.

www.session.org is not the only thread that he hasd been banned from because of the nature of his postings.

Ignore him!

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 11:44 AM

Unless I've very much mistaken (and I may well be), Michael's a fine musician and very knowledgable about all types of folk music, whatever he may or may not have said in another context on another forum.

He played in the seminal and very brilliant band York-based You Slosh with the legendary Troy Donockley.

Have a google.

Tom

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 11:41 AM

I have never met Llig Leachim

You got banned from thesession.org for choosing a username that closely mimicked his. and you're still telling us you don't have something personal invested in pursuing this discussion?

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 11:38 AM

In the totality of music, those of us who like traditional music of whatever kind are an embattled minority. Wouldn't it be nice if we supported each other and fought to preserve what we have rather than indulging in cheap sneers and ill-informed prejudice.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 11:13 AM

John MacKenzie your last post was the funniest thing I have read all month.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 11:01 AM

I have spent most of my life trying to promote English and Irsh Traditional music,
a statement that says that english traditional music is rubbish, is the uttering of someone who is unknowing/ ignorant.
English traditional music is very varied, one example is the difference in style between Oscar Woods and Billy Pigg.
the next statement that most irish traditional musicians are rubbish is insulting, unqualified and no truer than someone saying the world is flat.
Statements such as the above do a great disservice to the promotion of traditional music, this is my concern, and I felt it had to be answered. I have never met Llig Leachim,he may be a very pleasant person, I just wish he would stop making provocative unqualified statements.When people make silly unqualified statements dissing traditional musicians and traditional music, I will defend the music whoever the person is making the statement.
I found both of his statements upsetting , aggravating, and chose to use this forum to systematically prove why he is talking nonsense. which is what I have done,and I will continue to do so any time any person whoever they are comes out with unqualified drivel.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 10:54 AM

Fighting the Capslock?

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 10:47 AM

iHAVE SPENT MOST OF MY LIFE TRYING TO PROMOTE eNGLISH AND

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: tonyteach1
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 10:16 AM

Last night I watched Carthy and Swarbrick dazzle an audience at the Union Chapel with a mixture of British and other music. If its rubbish I enjoyed it and would go and see them again

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 10:06 AM

"Perhaps the best answer would have been to publicise the thread on Sessions, give a link to that site Then engage directly with the person who made the comment we are all discussing (allegedly)"
Dikc Miles being suspended from The Session discussion area would make this rather difficult.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 09:59 AM

Well I have a lot of time for Dick Miles. I've never met him, but he is a fine songwriter and musician. I don't understand what the point of the thread is. But if he was more specific about what it is, that has upset him, I'm sure we would all understand, and maybe even agree with him.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Peter C
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 09:52 AM

Actually we will never get to know whether English traditional music is rubbish or not, because we never get to hear any! (except in the privacy of our own homes/cars etc!)

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 09:28 AM

Dick Miles in this thread:

It is normally possible on this forum to discuss derogatory statements that people make about music without personal name calling, if you dont wish to discuss it, go away , but please stop insulting me and calling me names.

Dick Miles in self-same thread but further up, referring to Michael, who is not here to respond:

"an uninformed ignoramus"

"so this berk.. llig leahcim"

"troll? more like a racist Scottish fool"

Witness Dick Miles' notion of discussing without name-calling. You've diminished yourself quite enough now, Dick. Crawl away and hope that we'll forget this.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 08:27 AM

Is this the first time you seem to be taking issues you have with people, or whole forums, to another venue and dressing them up as innocently posted subjects?



Who are you fooling?

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 08:26 AM

Perhaps the best answer would have been to publicise the thread on Sessions, give a link to that site
Then engage directly with the person who made the comment we are all discussing (allegedly) That person is not represented here, and cannot defend himself from an attack by the OP. Said OP is very keen to avoid criticism of himself and his views, yet this thread seems to have been started with the intention of criticising someone else, behind his back!

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 08:19 AM

Quite clearly English traditional music isn't rubbish, [ or Irish for that matter ] you only have to listen to the likes of The Copper Family, Martin Carthy, Norma Waterson etc. the list is endless, the only point of this thread was to start an argument, no more no less.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 07:59 AM

i brought it over here because I thought it was an insult to the music I love and an insult to many irish tradtional musicians that I Respect,also this is a forum that is properly moderated unlike the other forum
Steve, please stop trying to attribute motives to me that are not true,and please stop attempting to diss me
It is normally possible on this forum to discuss derogatory statements that people make about music without personal name calling, if you dont wish to discuss it, go away , but please stop insulting me and calling me names.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 07:14 AM

Hee hee, that'll put the cat among the penguins.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:25 AM

Not when it's played on electric instruments. Even the worst trad song can be made to sound wonderful!!

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: treewind
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:23 AM

Oh yes, the old "free speech" argument.
"The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously."
(Hubert Humphrey)

Also "Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"
(attribution unknown)

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:18 AM

doesn't all music and poetry 'facilitate a certain pattern' - otherwise we would be expressing ourself in prose.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: treewind
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:16 AM

Thanks Steve for the only plausible explanation for how this all started.

I see the thread in question (which can be located by a Google search) seems to have had the relevant material quietly deleted. It wouldn't be a great loss if the same happened here.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 05:42 AM

You brought it over here in order to diss Michael, not to discuss music. Appalling behaviour.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 03:11 AM

music is subjective, and opinions about its worth to any given individual need no qualification. Looking at measures such as audience size, music sales etc. would suggest that english/irish traditional folk music is not as well received amongst the wider population as we supporters of traditional music might wish. That, however, is the way it is and I respect peoples right to hold their own opinion without them having to justify it.

Subject: RE: Is English traditional music rubbish?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 02:52 AM

I have no problem with different opinions providing that they are qualified, that then in my opinion makes them of value,
for example if I said I prefer Old timey music to Bluegrass because in my opinion Bluegrass can on occasions sound as if the tunes are being played to facilitate a certain pattern of picking, that statement would have more worth than saying all bluegrass is rubbish.
it is ignorant to lump all English traditional music together and dismiss it, because English tradtional music is varied in its styles,the same applies to IRISH TRADTIONAL MUSICIANS.
This is a music discussion forum, if someone makes a statement on an internet forum that insults a certain form of music, I have a right to discuss it without being accused of being a Troll, that is called free speeech., Steve if you dont like it dont participate, Jack   whether someone has posted something that is self promotion is plain irrelevant.