Whistles vs recorders

Subject: Whistles vs recorders
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 08:52 AM

I tried do a search to see if this had been discussed before, but kept on getting timeouts. When I did get in, I got too much info to take in in one go. When I tried to continue from where I left off, it was back to the timeouts. It was either give up or smash the computer into little bits. So, apologies if this has been already been covered.

The kids had recorders when they were at school and I had a go, now and then, but never did much with them. I can get a tune out of most things, but the recorder didn't seem to be something I wanted to play. Since then, I have bought whistles of varying sizes and, while not claiming to the best whistler in the world, I find them fun to play and more logical than I remember the recorder being. I go to instrumental sessions where experts rattle off jigs and reels at great pace and never fail to impress me.

Recently, there has been a recorder player at some of the acoustic and open-mic nights that I go to who has demonstrated what a versatile instrument it really is. She provides accompaniments to singers/guitarists, on a range of different recorders, which really enhance the performances.

What are the pros and cons of recorders versus whistles?


DC

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Mo the caller
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 09:16 AM

Some amazing people play both!
I have been told that you can play faster on a whistle. But recorders can be played in any key (though some are easier than others).

It probably depends more on the player than the instrument ... and the dreaded p word.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 04:10 PM

Most competent recorder players also play the whistle. It isn't an either/or thing.

The big difference is value for money. Recorders are made in much larger numbers than whistles and there is far more historical experience at making good ones in a variety of types and sizes in industrial quantities. The result is that at every price point, you can get a much better recorder for the same money. The difference is extreme at the low end - to get a whistle with the accuracy of intonation and dynamic and tonal range of a basic school recorder like the transparent green Yamaha I often get photographed with, you'd have to spend more than ten times as much.

Conversely, the wonky upper octave, squeaks, extraneous noises, and random variations in intonation from nonexistent quality control that you get with a Generation make an unmistakable statement that you're playing a folk instrument. There are times when you actually want that.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 04:57 PM

Jack - the only problem with Generation whistles is the complete lack of ANY quality control - The slightest variation in a mould , or the plastic mix all too often leaves you with a dodgy mouthpiece .
Find one that DOES work , and they are as good as any other whistle .

Doug - I have dabbled with recorders , but am too lazy to learn all the fancy fingering for the accidentals - Half covering a whistle comes much easier for me , and I can play with a degree of accuracy in several keys on one whistle

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 05:51 PM

... but am too lazy to learn all the fancy fingering for the accidentals - Half covering a whistle comes much easier for me ...

That's pretty much how I saw it.

I started out with Generation whistles but moved on to Susatos. I have a D and a low G. Hiow much would you expect to pay for a recorder to give an equivalent quality of sound to the Susato?

DC

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:11 PM

Personally , I prefer Tony Dixon to Susato - Similar price , but not as screechy at the top . I would like to try Alba , but they are definately not cheap !!

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:27 PM

You can get Susato recorders. I have some: G sopraninos and altos. They sound exactly the same as Susato whistles at the same pitch - the only difference is the fingerhole spacing, which gives you more chromatic flexibility and (useful for Scottish pipe tunes) a mid-range A that isn't overblown and is fingered closer to the way it is on the pipes.

But they sound just as bad as Susato whistles at the high end. Mostly I stay in the lower octave with them. Increasingly I'm using Italian-type G ocarinas instead, which also cover the pipe-tune range but with far greater power. (OK, you don't always want enough grunt to shout down three accordions).

You can't get cheap G alto recorders from any other maker, but for C and F pitches (equivalent to D and G whistles respectively) the not-quite-bottom-end Yamaha and Aulos models will knock the socks off any whistle you can buy for several times the cost of the Susatos.

Recorder fingering is MUCH easier than trying to halfhole accurately. It's a very clever system, pretty logical, and not hard to learn. Just sit down for an evening and play scales in different keys, slowly, thinking about what you're doing and listening carefully. The penny will drop.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: RTim
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:28 PM

My wife is a superb Recorder player, and a fabulous Whistle player
- but they are for different musics!!
Recorder for Baroque and Classical, Whistle for Irish!!!!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 07:08 PM

I use recorders for all sorts of stuff but mostly Scottish trad. And Irish tunes, but I only play those in Scottish or English sessions; there's not much fun in trying to bash through the sheer bigotry of Irish-tune-session players who have quasi-religious objections to using recorders in their music, and there always seems to be one bonehead like that in any session or forum (outside of Ireland, anyway - I have yet to meet an Irish player with that attitude).

Recorders have close to zero classical repertoire (Piers Adams plays what there is: look for his "Recorder Bravura" CD). I used to play a fair bit of mediaeval and renaissance stuff and some baroque music. The techniques I am now using most of the time would horrify most baroque exclusivists, though they're pretty well known to anybody up to speed on modern uses for the instrument.

Some interesting recorder players to listen to: Evelyn Nallen, David Bellugi, Racheal Cogan.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 07:32 PM

I usually agree with all you say, Jack, but (and I speak as a harmonica player of Irish tunes, so I know about all that prejudice) I can't go along with your accusation of bigotry on the part of Irish tune-players. The recorder has a powerful and very pure cut-through tone that simply refuses to blend with other session-type instruments. The recorder absolutely demands that everyone else is in tune with it to within very few cents indeed. That is hard to achieve to say the least, and I'd go so far as to say that it isn't even particularly desirable. Instruments that have such stentorian voices simply don't mix with the flawed humanity represented by fiddles, flutes and whistles. Not to speak of harmonicas.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 08:05 PM

Are you seriously suggesting that Susato whistles and Susato recorders have different tone qualities? Sheesh. How do you imagine that happening when the only difference between them is where some of the fingerholes are?

Recorders are more accurately in tune than most whistles (for very expensive whistles there is no difference). But the purity of their tone varies a lot. The more expensive a recorder, the more options you get, and I usually have a variety on hand at the same pitch but with different timbres. Complex tone with extraneous partials is usually described as "reediness", and (by sheer linguistic fluke) reediness can help when playing along with free-reeds. The transparent Yamahas are reedier than most basic descants, which is why I pick them as "blending" instruments.

One way to dirty up the tone of a flute is to hum into it, very quietly. These are more extreme versions of the technique, I usually do it far more discreetly and only on a few notes in the tune:

Evelyn Nallen on singing into the recorder
Andras Hodorog, whistle
Andras Hodorog, Moldvai kaval
Nina Perlove on the flute

I've been playing in a session with one or two moothie players for 4 hours a week for the last 20 years, so I've figured out how to blend in by now (or *not* blend in when I need to, for that matter). There are lots of tricks. Practically none of them are specific to the recorder or whistle (or even the ocarina, for that matter).

The instrument that I perceive as having a disconcertingly pure tone is the concertina. Takes a bit of thought to produce a tone that goes with it on a flute-family instrument. But you very rarely hear it without somebody in the room playing a fiddle at the same time, and that makes it easier. It can also be difficult to play a recorder (or a very good whistle) along with a really crap whistle - I will usually either use the humming technique to generate a sort of composite flutey-musette sound or else pick up an instrument in a different octave.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 08:21 PM

Some excellent recorders here. This site recommended by a local player of baroque music.
A good soprano for about U.S. $1400-2000, altos, tenors and bass also listed.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 08:23 PM

Well, Jack, you're far more savvy than I am when it comes to these blown things. I actually have a Susato tunable whistle. It's loud and proud and very pure in tone (I don't know how else to describe it). It isn't like any other whistle I've tried to play (I'm a crap whistle player so I haven't really investigated anything costing more than a very few quid). What I do know is that Susato whistles are either loved or hated, never actually affectionately indulged.

It's interesting what you say about blending. It's perfectly possible for decent harmonica players (especially when they are playing single reeded instruments, not tremolos) to subtly adjust their tone and pitch in order to blend with what they hear around them. It's fifty per cent about listening and fifty percent about your playing skill. A concertina in the wrong hands can sound like a harmonica without the humanity, but I've known some good players who seem to surmount the difficult-to-blend issue. A lot depends on whether you're at the same pitch as, say, fiddles. Oddly, though whistles generally have, er, fairly "approximate" intonation, they seem to suit the aesthetic of a good Irish session perfectly. Discuss!

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 08:25 PM

Oops- that's http://www.buyrecorders.com/baroque_recorders_A415.htm

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 08:42 PM

Um.

An A=415 recorder in C would actually be in B, and would work quite well for playing Indian music, which usually centres on C sharp.

Does that give me an excuse to buy one?

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 12:40 AM

The recorder (wooden) was my first instrument (age 6 - 10). I agree with Steve Shaw that its pure tone does not work well with Irish tunes, where the breathier sound of a whistle fits much better.

I have yet to play a plastic recorder that pleases my ear. The Susato plastic whistle (I had an A) sounds just like a plastic recorder to me, incurring the same objection.

As regards playability, the recorder may have advantages, but the sound just isn't right for trad, IMO.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 03:15 AM

I was at a Scottish session a few months ago where somebody was putting everything on a CD-quality miniature digital recording machine. I was mainly playing recorders of various kinds and there were a couple of other people with (expensive, good) whistles. We had all played together before a few times so we knew how each other played.

For a lot of the tracks I couldn't tell afterwards which sound was me.


The recorder (wooden) was my first instrument (age 6 - 10).

Unless you had very rich parents it will have been garbage. Cheap plastic recorders are far better than cheap wooden ones.

"Breathy" tone doesn't distinguish whistles from recorders, and if you're any good on either and have an okay instrument, you can play in such a way that nobody can tell which you've got.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Tootler
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 05:44 AM

...It's fifty per cent about listening and fifty percent about your playing skill.

Which also applies to any instrument. It's about being aware of what's going on round you and playing in such a way as to fit in. Both whistle and [descant] recorder can jar in a session because of their pitch, especially above 2nd octave G. Played loud they cut through the sound and both whistle and recorder will blow sharp if you blow even a little bit too hard which compounds the problems. Cheap whistles can be reasonably in tune in the first octave but have intonation problems above 2nd octave G which can be all but impossible to correct except by the very best players as these are inherent in the simple bore shape. OTOH the better plastic descant recorders have good intonation across the range but because they are "not whistles" tend to get blamed for the faults of the cheap whistles which most people come along with.

Instruments that have such stentorian voices simply don't mix with the flawed humanity represented by fiddles, flutes and whistles. Not to speak of harmonicas.

Far too often people don't bother to tune up properly in sessions so the problems of intonation are compounded.

Interestingly I have not met the anti-recorder prejudice among actual Irish people. When I have used my recorder in flute/whistle workshops the reaction has more often been one of interest and a discussion of the differences and how to make the most of the instrument in playing traditional music.

I must admit I nearly always play tenor recorder these days and I mostly play English music. Mind, English sessions often involve a very eclectic mix of tunes.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 06:59 AM

Whistle players never had it so good! Gone are the days of playing through an entire batch of Generations or Faedogs just to find decent one. I still cherish my old Clarkes Cs, and some of the new Ds; my shiney Shaw-lookalike Clarke D is nice muted. A good whistle player can make a Meg or Sweetone sound beautiful, just as a good Generation sounds like a dream if Paddy Moloney's playing it... My favourite whistle is still a bamboo F I got from Ray Man over 20 years ago; and I've got two Generation Bbs that I wouldn't part with for anything. My low-D was made by my old mate Iain Wood as one-off back around 1990 - never heard anything like it before or since.

Whistles vs recorders? Chalk and cheese. The recorder is a dynamic and highly evolved piece of kit (with a classical repertoire to match) with its roots in simple whistles, just the oboe has it roots in shawms and the piano has it roots in zithers.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 08:11 AM

Lara Carter from The Old Dance School is an excellent recorder player doing some very interesting things with that band.

Personally I don't like the legions of badly-tuned and badly-played fiddles that are swamping many sessions at the moment, but I don't extrapolate that to say that 'all violins are crap' - the sad fact is that some people just don't like the sound of recorders and won't accept them in the music, no matter how well played and in tune, and nothing in the world is going to change that.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 04:08 PM

Jack, my parents were not rich, but they spent a bit of money on quality instruments. My father played the alto recorder, and my mother the (baritone?) large one with the curved brass mouthpiece.

I don't believe there were plastic ones in those days.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 04:08 PM

Just out of interest, can anyone post a "Youtube" link to anyone playing an Irish reel, jig or hornpipe well on a recorder ?

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 05:20 PM

I've only ever known of one recorder virtuoso, Michaela Petri, and her handling of the classical flute repertoire, most of which was written for block- rather than transverse flute, put most exponents of the latter instrument firmly in the shade. I've known quite a few whistle virtuosi, all of whom have played within the various folk idioms. I suppose the only conclusion that I've been able to draw is no matter what the piece, there's always someone can play it better than Jimmy Galway.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: oggie
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 05:40 PM

"Just out of interest, can anyone post a "Youtube" link to anyone playing an Irish reel, jig or hornpipe well on a recorder ?"

Bt the same token can anyone point me to a link of someone playing Playford well on a whistle?

Steve

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 06:25 PM

The last bloody thing anyone needs is a virtuoso playing a whistle, or anything else, in traditional music. This music is simple music which anyone with a modicum of skill can play.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 06:36 PM

Even English music fas its virtuosi - Billy Pigg & Katherine Tickell for starters. Or do you have a different definition of virtuoso, Steve?

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 06:54 PM

Playford on the whistle:

Hatao

Not the way I'd do it, but worth a listen.

Not an Irish tune, but I doubt many Irish sessions would have a problem with it if they couldn't see what was making the sound:

Carlos Nunez

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 07:05 PM

Yeah, Dave, people whom you would put on a pedestal. Have you asked Ms Tickell whether she wants to be regarded as a virtuoso? Anyone purporting to be a virtuoso who turned up to our session would be told to bugger off, pronto. Traditional music does not have virtuosi at its pinnacle. Basically because it doesn't, or at least shouldn't, have a pinnacle.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 07:07 PM

[recorders available in a Mudcatter's childhood]
I don't believe there were plastic ones in those days.

Most children in the UK and New Zealand were learning on Dolmetsch "Dolonite" plastic recorders when I was a kid in the Fifties. Dolmetsch started production of these in 1947, taking the design from Schott, who had started limited mass production in the UK in 1941 (issuing them to German prisoners of war). The recorder didn't make much sense as a school instrument until you could mass produce them in standardized pitch in plastic.

How old are you?

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 07:29 PM

Yeah, Steve. If you go down to definition 3 in Collins, you get to 'dilettante', and there's been quite a few sessions ruined by them. However, most of us would stick with the prior definitions which refer to the level of musical competance to which we all aspire (unless we're members of Alexander Mcall Smith's Orchestra).

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 07:43 PM

Dave. Traditional music (and I'm thinking mostly of Irish, which is what I play) is not music for virtuosi. It is music for ordinary people to play on inexpensive instruments for their own simple pleasure or for people to dance to. It isn't difficult to reach a level of competence on your chosen instrument sufficient to be able to play this music. When I listen to Kevin Burke or Kathryn Tickell, I am listening to people who have got the music well and truly in their blood and who can play it with panache. But they are not virtuosi. It is simply the wrong word.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 08:05 PM

I grew up in Germany, born 1954. The only plastic instruments I remember seeing were Hohner melodicas.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 08:15 PM

Traditional music often has an elite strand within it - there were no amateur klezmer musicians until the revival, for one example. And in Irish music, the harp and the uillean pipes cost far more than the average person's annual income - they made no sense at all unless you were either very wealthy or making a living at music.

Nowadays there are two instruments that stand out as accessible to anybody's pocket at an acceptable level of quality and which can play most of the traditional repertoire of western Europe. One is the mouth organ and the other is the recorder. And recorders are cheaper because an entry-level moothie will wear out a lot quicker. A whistle of comparable quality - a Sindt, Alba or MK, say - is not sold at skint prole kid prices.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:56 AM

Thanks for all the comments.

…. The result is that at every price point, you can get a much better recorder for the same money.

…………

Recorder fingering is MUCH easier than trying to halfhole accurately. It's a very clever system, pretty logical, and not hard to learn. Just sit down for an evening and play scales in different keys, slowly, thinking about what you're doing and listening carefully. The penny will drop.

If recorders are cheaper than equivalent whistles, then there is no good reason why I shouldn't go out and by one. I just need to stop being lazy and make the effort to learn all the fancy fingering.


Referring to whistles, the comment was made:

- the only problem with Generation whistles is the complete lack of ANY quality control –


Are there any bottom end recorders that I should positively avoid?
Any recommendations for entry level and those that are one above entry level?
Can anyone give a guide to the minumum price for something acceptable in the UK?



DC

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 05:05 AM

I was told to get a Yamaha or Aulos, around a tenner, though I paid £5 for an Aulos at a festival (slightly shop-soiled though). Yes there are useless cheapies, not sure what brand names.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 05:59 AM

Are there any bottom end recorders that I should positively avoid?

The best makers for low-end stuff are Aulos and Yamaha; Zen-On for slightly more expensive things (their altos are great). Dolmetsch (aka Kent) are not very good. Hornby and Early Learning Centre stuff is total crap - made to sell to parents who don't know anything about what they're buying for their kids. Aulos and Yamaha recorders are so easy to find there's not much reason to look elsewhere for a starter instrument.

The price list at Saunders Recorders is annotated with opinionated mini-reviews which give you a good idea of what to think about. The guy who runs that shop is very clear about when an instrument is value for money and when it isn't.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 07:43 AM

Bottom End Whistles if the shop wont let you try till after you buy would be the basic Tony Dixon plastic whistle or the similalry iced Susato . BUT If you do buy a cheap whistle , try it immediately and if you dont get clear notes across the octaves and AT LEAST one note in the THIRD octave , demand a replacement , or your money back !

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Tootler
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 10:38 AM

I mostly agree with Jack. You won't go far wrong if you get a Yamaha or Aulos plastic recorder. I have heard that Dolmetsch have gone out of business, though their website is still there. Their plastic descant and treble weren't all that good and I got rid of mine. The tenor and bass were much better and I preferred them to the Yamaha equivalents. They had good intonation and were more comfortable in my hand, especially the tenor.

Hornby is an interesting case. I think they are trying to raise their game. I am chairman of our local branch of the recorder society and they sent me one of their new descants. It was much better than I expected - it spoke easily right across the range (poor quality instruments will usually not speak well above top G - top C for alto) and a quick check suggested it was well in tune. I keep it in the car.

The ultra cheap ones you get in the likes of the Early Learning centre are generally, as Jack so tersely puts it, crap.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 10:41 AM

So, Steve, what word would you use to describe someone "who has a masterly or dazzling skill or technique" within folk music?

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 06:01 PM

If he plays nicely, brilliant. If he plays on it, he's a tosser.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 07:20 PM

I used to occasionally visit a session in Richmond where everybody played nicely - not my favourite. People who play on it (sic) aren't virtuosi.

Subject: RE: Whistles vs recorders
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 06:29 PM

Since the day before yesterday, I am the proud owner of an Aulos recorder. I now have yet another way of annoying the wife while she's trying to watch TV.

Thanks for the helpful comments.

DC