BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?

Subject: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 11:08 PM

I should start by saying that although I know relatively little about it (yet) some other media are showing a lot of interest about alleged NYPD brutality at Wall street demonstrations.

I see, however, nothing about it here. Perhaps those well informed would enlighten us.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 12:07 AM

There have been a number of people on facebook sharing links and speculating about why the American media is relatively quiet about this. The conclusion seems to be that the American finance and banking industry is leaning on the media empire they are tied in with.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 12:10 AM

Have you watched the video?

Video Appears to Show Wall Street Protesters Being Pepper-Sprayed (NY Times)

It doesn't look to me like the young women were being more than noisy. Did not seem to me to warrant pepper spray.

An Important Video to Watch: Pepper-Spray by a Cruel and Cowardly NYC Cop - James Fallows in Atlantic online says "...according to the NYT, the chief police spokesman, Paul Browne, said that the policeman used pepper spray "appropriately." Great. On the video we can't hear what either side is saying. But at face value, the casualness of the officer who saunters over, sprays right in the women's eyes, and then slinks away without a backward glance, as if he'd just put down a sick dog, does not match my sense of "appropriate" behavior by officers of the law in a free society.

"Police officers make countless hard decisions every day, often at the risk of their own safety or lives. It's a harder job than I have. But everything about this scene suggests an officer who has forgotten about some of these hard choices. He just zaps 'em and walks away as they scream."

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 12:13 AM

Lots to see about it on Youtube, Richard. The news was a bit quiet on its reporting of the Wall Street demonstrations, but people with VCs seem to have been paying attention.

I expect when the WSJ or NYT get embarrassed into some actual reporting, we'll find out more. But Wall Street wouldn't like anything to tarnish its somewhat soiled reputation.

We'll see. I think the kids doing this are great. They are addressing the problem, and as always, the cops are doing what they are paid to do by the city fathers. It has ever been thus.

I think pepper spraying the three women bystanders was a bit much, but sh#t happens.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 12:14 AM

I agree with SRS and DD. Sorry gals, didn't see your posts when I wrote mine.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 12:22 AM

I don't watch TV, but there has been a lot on most of the major e-media (cnn.com, msnbc.com, nytimes, com, etc).

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 12:29 AM

For example, go to Google News and put Wall Street in the search area. GASP and surprise: barely a mention. A hundred protesters have been arrested, but hey, all's quiet on the eastern front. And

Business goes on as usual
The monies and profits are high
And the TVs boom
In every living room
And tell us which deodorant to buy

Say goodnight, Gracie.

Goodnight, Gracie.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:11 AM

Videos Show Police Using Pepper Spray at Protest on the Financial System (NY Times) - a bit fuller reporting.

---
The Police Department's chief spokesman, Paul J. Browne, said the police had used the pepper spray "appropriately."

"Pepper spray was used once," he added, "after individuals confronted officers and tried to prevent them from deploying a mesh barrier — something that was edited out or otherwise not captured in the video."
---

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:51 AM

80 arrested at 'Occupy Wall Street' protest

"Police corral marchers near stock exchange; demonstration enters 2nd week"

Given the "several hundred" protestors who've been doing their best to block traffic for more than a week, 80 arrests seems pretty much like an "expected number." The article notes that "pepper spray was used once" but doesn't give specifics.

Even when legally picketing - as during a union strike - the universal rule is that "picketers must keep moving" in traffic lanes. Blocking traffic, as by sitting down in the middle of the street or traffic lane invariably results in an arrest, and failure to get up on one's feet when ordered to do so constitutes "resisting arrest," justifying the use of appropriate force.

One person who alleges being sprayed says she was only yelling at the officer, but if she was moving in his direction while yelling, the use of pepper spray to repel a possible attack is probably defensible as appropriate force - and in a crowd it's almost impossible to avoid some "overspray," which might account for the others who claimed they were hurt by the pepper spray.

Perhaps there is just little that's really worth reporting, except in the minds of those who don't know the rules of peaceful protest as well as those Baptists who never get in trouble with the cops.

(A Photoblog linked in the article shows only a few pics, but nothing indicating anyone being beat up. Of course that was Saturday, so something more may have happened on Sunday.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 09:58 AM

Link to Washington Post blog

and

Occupy Wall Street, which appears to be the website for the movement.

"#OCCUPYWALLSTREET is a people powered movement for democracy that began in America on September 17 with an encampment in the financial district of New York City. Inspired by the Egyptian Tahrir Square uprising and the Spanish acampadas, we vow to end the monied corruption of our democracy … join us!

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 10:34 AM

Law enforcement has a duty to commit to non-violent handling of demonstrators which can be done with proper training. Siding with sadistic police actions, beatings, macing, clubbing is analogous to what the people of Egypt, Bahrain, Tunisia, and especially now Syria have gone through and to justify the use of this type of force on non-violent protesters is siding with dictatorial policies and authoritarian anti-democratic regimes.

As to the smashing of windows, property destruction and the like, I need to remind the critics here that much of this is caused by agent provocateurs who are deployed by certain police departments and governmental groups to deliberately disrupt peaceful demonstrations. Most of the people, including the young, are instructed in techniques of non-violent behavior before demonstrating and the idea that these people are deserving of the heavy handed sadistic treatment at the hands of the police is denying the rights of citizens to air their grievances peacefully. This is true anywhere in the world.

Ultimately, the young people in the Wall Street demonstrations will win as they are doing in the Arab Spring and siding with brutality is ignorant, impotent and unproductive.

Remember the police dogs, the fire hoses, the clubbing and beating of civil rights demonstrators in the South USA during voting rights issues and you see a repeat of this approach in today's handling of Wall Street demonstrators, all this begs the question that they are absolutely right in what they are doing as Americans attempting to preserve a fading democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 10:35 AM

I too shall deftly avoid the doggy doo.

The kids are waking up lots of people and it's spreading.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 11:45 AM

It is of course understood by most folks that police have a difficult job to do. That being said their first obligation should be to protect the public from harm. Too often however, they view that public as the enemy and close ranks to protect their own brotherhood and idiots in uniform who openly break the law themselves. That in turn stains the reputation of them all!
The misuse of Tasers has killed innocent people such as the RCMP members who killed a poor devil at the Vancouver airport. The RCMP circled the wagons to protect these bastards and they are still in the employ of the force. That has degraded a once proud and honourable group to carry the shame of a few bad apples! STUPID!

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 12:54 PM

Live video stream here.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 12:58 PM

Uh-oh... banjo player and songs.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: gnu
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 01:43 PM

Cool site Jeri. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:23 PM

Deftly avoided the doggy doo again.

Interesting to note that some speakers have said they were not activists earlier in life. Seems that at least some of the protest has gone mainstream.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 03:53 PM

Should be "deftly dodging the doggy doo" I think. (I scooped it.)

Listen, if y'all want to talk about something that DOESN'T fall under the title of the thread, start another one. No opportunistic infections in this please.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 02:34 PM

I see in that video that at least one of the other police officers got some of that pepper spray in his eyes. I wouldn't think the bloke who did this will be particularly popular with his colleagues.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 02:40 PM

Unlikely, McG of H. And neither is it a good excuse to turn a blind eye.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 04:32 PM

Any police officer who didn't feel really pissed off at this type of action by a colleague, which in facts puts them all in greater danger, would need to be really stupid. Of course there are some really stupid cops, but most of those I have met in my life are reasonably intelligent. Of course they aren't in the NYPD.

Pretty evidently the officer who did this ought to be suspended and charged with criminal activity. But I assume that won't happen, since power politics come into play, and all big organisations have an instinct to cover up stuff. However I'd doubt if this bloke's career prospects will have been helped by doing this on camera.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 05:00 PM

The officer in question, whose name appears to be Anthony Bologna (Tony Baloney? Get real!), was cited in 2004 for roughing up anti-Bush protestors (remember "free speech zones," usually blocks away from any venue where the man was appearing?).

Just thought you'd like to know.

Bob

Tony Baloney? Really?

Tony Baloney? I ask you...

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 05:02 PM

NPR did a longer story about it this afternoon, with emphasis on how cooperative and neat the protesters have been. "Effective" would also be a nice observation, but I don't know if that could be included yet.

Elizabeth Warren should take a stroll through that park. These are probably her people. :)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 05:09 PM

Tony Baloney?   

That Tony Blair seems to get everywhere...

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 05:13 PM

How it looks to outsiders

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 05:20 PM

Michael Moore on Occupy Wall Street with footage

He also speaks of Troy Davis in there.



"We are the 99%!" as the young people are now shouting...

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 07:12 PM

MSNBC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgr3DiqWYCI&feature=share

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 06:49 PM

National Public Radio story from All Things Considered on Sept. 27.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 06:53 PM

Susan Sarandon speaks up at the Wall Street Occupation.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 05:42 PM

The problem is the psychological mindset of some law enforcement agents such as the police. Many are authoritarians, (not all) and any transgression is in their eyes, such as demonstrating is justification for violence. This is no means true for all cops, many who are committed to public safety and service.

There are lunatics such as Anthony Bologna who play god with the law. They need to be weeded out and internal investigations must be done with them.

I admire Susan Sarandon, a celebrity with conscience and I am glad to see more of this kind of support for the brave people protesting on Wall Street.

The sophistication of the demonstrators is shown by their understanding that not all cops are the same and many are supportive of the 99'ers, and they are victims of union busting and corporate greed.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 06:06 PM

The protesters are saying that that many/most police have been friendly and even supportive...but they can't object or interfere too strenuously when a 'superior' decides to horn in.

Looks like Tony Baloney has gone a little too far this time.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 06:33 PM

I saw the video and was disgusted - the scream of anguish is more than enough to cut you in the heart.

BUT: If they were being asked to move on or somesuch, then they were provoking it. I don't believe that they should have been sprayed, but these videos have a habit of showing the eventual snap, not the pre-baiting.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 07:43 PM

There ya go druggy. We weren't there so how can we judge? Fact is, I doubt that a lot of big hairy assed men could not have handled a few little girls with physical prowess BUT should they have done so rather than pepper spraying them when they would not comply with a legal request? Was there a legal request? Did they deny to comply? Did they understand the request if indeed it was issued?

I say the police win this one... no matter if they shouldn't.

Maybe protesters should get their shit together and do it right. That would help us ALL out in future. Of course, that would take some organization and some brains... difficult to organize that... takes a lot of time and effort and it's kinda hard to herd sheep without a good dog. I mean, what kinda dog would you use? Seriuously... what kinda dog would bark for you if you were in charge?

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:04 PM

From what I have read, Bologna's civil suit from the 2004 Republican convention is about to come to trial. I am surprised that he is not being more circumspect in his behavior. Among the reports is one that officers on the scene objected to his behavior. He is variously repoted as being a lieutenant or an inspector.

That said, I was at the 2004 protests and watched several officers jump and haul away a young, bearded demonstrator with no visible provocation. I was no more than 20' away, in the same pen. There were camera people from the lawyers' project filming the incident.

Subject: RE: BS: NYPD Police Brutality - or not?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:36 PM

The pepper spray at Liberty Plaza incident

was against police regulations, it was an assault. It is battery.

It is also common as hell and not as potentially fatal as stun guns that are also used against innocent people.