Subject: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Barry Finn Date: 28 Sep 99 - 10:51 PM I'm looking for backround on this (also know as Mars Forevermore) song, if it's trad, where & when did it come if not who wrote it & when did they write it? I haven't sung it in ages & have started to sing it again but I've never been able to find anything about it. Thanks for any help. Barry |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: lamarca Date: 28 Sep 99 - 11:42 PM Barry, Holdstock and MacLeod recorded it on their "Deepwater Shanties" tape, and say this about it: "Nelson commanded the Agamemnon in 1793. His flagship, the Victory, was joined by the 64 gun Agamemnon and the 74 gun Mars at the battle of Trafalger, October 21, 1805." I don't see it listed under either title in Hugill, Doerflinger, Colcord, Whall, Shay or my musty old "Naval Songs and Ballads" from the British Naval Society (1907?), so you'll prob'ly have to ask Dick Holdstock if he knows any more about it... |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Barry Finn Date: 28 Sep 99 - 11:54 PM Hi & Thanks Lamarca. I did know that Dick & Alan did this & I knew some of the backround of the setting, just haven't been able to nail anything on the song itself. I get to see them maybe once every 2 years, knowing me I'll forget to ask the next time I see them. Jeff Warner asked me if I hadn't gotten it from Johnny Collins (nope, from Dick & Alan), that he thought that Johnny had something to do with it or something that could add to it. Never had the pleasure of seeing him, if I do I'll ask him too, as long as I can stay focused & remember. Thanks, Barry |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Martin _Ryan Date: 29 Sep 99 - 02:47 AM I have a copy-tape of Johny Collins singing this - only time I've ever heard it. Regards |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Jon W. Date: 29 Sep 99 - 11:02 AM Is this related to Roll Alabama Roll? Perhaps a precedent? |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Pete peterson Date: 29 Sep 99 - 11:13 AM Thanks Jon for asking the same question I was mentally asking myself and didn't post. Does anybody know? (If we could see the lyrics for the Agamemnon we could draw our own conclusions, hint hint) Thanks in advance |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Andy Date: 29 Sep 99 - 11:21 AM Hi, I am in touch with Johnny Collins at present on another matter I'll ask him if he has any further info. Will be mailing him today or tomorrow O.K. |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Barry Finn Date: 29 Sep 99 - 08:26 PM It's not a close to "Roll Alabama Roll" but it is in the DT. Thanks to all of you who sent Dick's address. Last night RiGGy e-mailed me, he had already sent the qusetion to Dick. I don't know weither he'll have an answer, if he does I'll post it here in the meantime if any others have anything on the song please post, thanks. Barry |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: AndyG Date: 30 Sep 99 - 05:56 AM MARS FOR EVERMORE lyric, for reference (DT) Agammenons:
Mars:
thirty ships of the line:
The Year of Five: Monday, October 21st, 1805. AndyG |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: MMario Date: 04 May 01 - 10:42 AM Can anyone post the tune? |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Martina Ryan Date: 04 May 01 - 12:01 PM I've just noticed from the above thread that Martin Ryan has a tape of Johnny Collins singing this song. Isn't that funny, 'cos my name is Martina Ryan, and I have a copy of it too!! Martina |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Irish sergeant Date: 04 May 01 - 01:41 PM Had to say i wondered about the tune myself as the title sequence is so similar to "Roll Alabama, Roll" Kindest reguards to all, Neil |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Charley Noble Date: 04 May 01 - 02:32 PM Hey, Barry, did you ever follow through on this? |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: RoyH (Burl) Date: 04 May 01 - 03:22 PM On the notes to 'The Traveller's Rest', Traditional Sound Recordings. TSR 014. by Johnny Collins, he writes that he got the song from Scottish singer Andrew Lees........."a song inspired by the battle of Trafalgar, adapted and arranged from a traditional broadside by A.L.Lloyd" This was Johnny's first album circa 1973. Tradition Records went out of business, their catalogue has recently been bought by Fellside Records. |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Metchosin Date: 04 May 01 - 04:43 PM The information I have from Lime Bay Mutiny's tape says they were told by Dick Holdstock also, that it was a broadside adapted by Lloyd for a BBC programme commemorating the Battle of Trafalgar. |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: fox4zero Date: 04 May 01 - 05:59 PM Sorry to go off on a tangent, but there is a Afrikaans folk song which translates as"Here Comes The Alabama" which is about a visit of the confedrate raider. Larry |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Charley Noble Date: 04 May 01 - 06:01 PM Thanks, Burl and Metchosin. Looks like you nailed it! |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Charley Noble Date: 06 May 01 - 06:37 PM refesh! |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Little Hawk Date: 06 May 01 - 09:44 PM I love the way the British named ships in those days! - LH |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Metchosin Date: 06 May 01 - 10:27 PM so do I Little Hawk, my great grandfather served on the Endymion, as well as the paddle sloop Spiteful, among others and it always conjures up Horatio Hornblower images in my mind. Although his service was, I think, more pestilance ridden and less romantic. The Spiteful spent time on the Congo River where you were 10 times more likely to die of malaria than by the hand of a pirate or a slave trader. |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Metchosin Date: 07 May 01 - 02:28 AM You might get a kick out of some of the other names they managed to come up with, the HMS Pinafore had nothing on the HMS Pansy or the HMS Spanker |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Barry Finn Date: 07 May 01 - 07:37 PM Thanks for all the additional info, this goes back a ways. Like I had mentioned in my original post, I forgot I even did this. It's a great & gutsy song I definitly will have to bring this out of the dustbin. Barry |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Metchosin Date: 07 May 01 - 08:10 PM little kids love it too, especially the part about the purple gore. |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: GUEST,LynnT Date: 07 May 01 - 08:30 PM I'm a US Navy Commander when I'm not gardening or singing. This article was sent me by another Navy officer -- seems appropriate. Enjoy! Lynn T
What's in a Name?
He too was a good psychologist - nobody who had dared to challenge Britain could fail to be moved by the news that HMS SPITEFUL, HMS VIOLENT and HMS VINDICTIVE were turning up to sort them out. In later years, as he sat writing letters to the Eastbourne Gazette demanding the reintroduction of public flogging for litter louts, he must have regretted not calling a ship HMS VICIOUS. However, he probably consoled himself with the thought that Clerk No.1 didn't get much of a look in on the V's. He would have christened the ships VACUOUS, VILE, VERMINOUS and VENEREAL. As it was he only managed HMS VANITY, which was presumably a sister ship of HMS NARCISSUS. Though Clerk No.2 no doubt deplored the behaviour of his colleague, he, too, allowed the problems of day-to-day existence to intrude into his work, though only after rows with his wife, hence HMS TERMAGANT, HMS VIRAGO and HMS TIRADE. I don't know for how many years they worked in the same office, but it must have been a fraught relationship. Each probably spent most of his time trying to trump the names of the other. Clerk No.1 christened HMS PANSY, No.2 responded with HMS MANLY. Clerk No.1 - HMS FAIRY, Clerk No.2 - HMS VIRILE. And so it went on until they retired and the ships they had named were either sunk or scrapped. Now our ships have boringly correct names, which is a pity, for names could make a difference. A truly chauvinistic government would do well to study the names dreamed up by Clerk No.2. If we can no longer terrify opponents with the size of our navy, we could try to frighten them with aggressive nomenclature. A good start would be to retrieve the name HMS VIOLENT and call sister ships HMS PSYCHOPATHIC, HMS BLOOD CRAZED and HMS CRIMINALLY INSANE. The Vandal class could include HMS RAM RAIDER, HMS HEADCASE and HMS TERMINATOR. Of course, a more progressive government might go for names which reflected the concerns of the Left - HMS BLACK SECTIONS, HMS STOP CLAUSE 28, HMS UNILATERALIST and HMS BINDING DECISION OF THE PARTY CONFERENCE. Perhaps not, the Daily Mail would have a field day if HMS UNILATERALIST was ever sunk. In any event, the name of the ship doesn't appear to have affected its ability to fight, HMS TRUANT sank the KARLSRUHE, HMS WALLFLOWER and HMS INCONSTANT accounted for several U-boats and I've no doubt that other ships with ridiculous names had excellent war records. But it is hard not to imagine the crew of HMS NARCISSUS leaning over the side to admire their reflections in the water, or the crew of HMS SPANKER being accosted by leather-clad masochists in dockside bars. The crews of such ships must have been relieved when security considerations temporarily ended the practice of having the ship's name emblazoned on the cap-band. |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Barry Finn Date: 07 May 01 - 08:46 PM Which brings to mind a ship a former singing partner of mine served on durning Viet Nam, the "Bonny Dick" whose name has been in use all the way back to John Paul Jones. Barry |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Charley Noble Date: 07 May 01 - 08:47 PM This may be the final word on names...Thanks, I think.;-) |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Metchosin Date: 07 May 01 - 11:47 PM Thanks for posting my link LynnT, I guess the print was too small *BG* |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Charley Noble Date: 08 May 01 - 08:13 AM Then there's all those appropriate dingy names such as for the Golden Hind, the Hind End... |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Jun 01 - 11:00 AM Oh, for heaven's sake! HMS Spanker was no doubt named with regard to expressions like "a good spanking breeze", meaning "brisk" or "moving along fast". As for the Golden Hind, that was named after a sacred animal out of mythology, the very one that bore the Golden Fleece, as I recall, not after someone's hind end! Have some forbearance, you vile knaves! However, here are some more neat potential names for British warships: HMS INDOLENT, HMS REDUNDANT, HMS INCONTINENT, HMS REPULSIVE, HMS LOQUACIOUS, HMS CANTANKEROUS... Really, the possibities are endless... As for the Agamemnon, there is now a superb plank on frame wooden model of her available from a company in England. A very fine looking ship of the line indeed. - LH |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Metchosin Date: 27 Jun 01 - 12:02 PM Actually Little Hawk, a spanker is a fore and aft sail set with a gaff and a boom at the aftermost part of a ship. So it does have something originally to do with the backside. |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: GUEST,JohnB Date: 27 Jun 01 - 12:07 PM Johnny Collins is appearing at the Mill Race Festival in Cambridge, well Galt really in Ontario on August 4th. He is also at the Bay City Michigan Tall ships event, sometime around that date =/- week or so. I don't know where you live Barry but I hope you can make one of them. By the way great set of lungs you got there, heard you both Saturday and Sunday nights at Old Songs, I just didn't know who you were. JohnB |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Jun 01 - 12:09 PM Ah, yes, right you are, Metchosin! - LH |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Les from Hull Date: 27 Jun 01 - 12:59 PM We've had several HMS Repulses. When you have a lot of ships you've to find a lot of names. During WW2 the US Navy named their submarines after fish and sea creatures. I read somewhere that they had so many subs and were building so many more that they were giving them names that could be given to newly-discovered fish! Les |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Jun 01 - 01:17 PM That very problem may be what led to some countries (like Japan and Germany) numbering their submarines, rather than naming them. The Germans numbered many of their destroyers and other small warships too. - LH |
Subject: RE: ROLL, AGEMEMNON, ROLL backround inf From: Les from Hull Date: 27 Jun 01 - 01:24 PM LH - what a lack of imagination on the Germans' part. Quite a small navy (apart from the subs, I suppose) and they still couldn't think of names! Fortunately with Britain's long naval heritage we usually had enough names. When the RN took over one of the German destroyers after the war (it was called Z35 or some such), it was commissioned as HMS Nonsuch! Les |
Subject: RE: Origin: Roll Agamemnon Roll / Mars for Evermore From: GUEST,Alan Date: 16 May 22 - 06:02 PM Mars for Evermore Mars for Evermore (A.L. Lloyd) Come my lads we're off to the Main, Oh Agammenons all, To load our ships with the dollars of Spain, Mars for evermore. They told us thirty ships of the line, From France and Spain on the sea does shine. Them ships of France and Spain do shine, They'll not forget the year of five. The guns did rattle and the shot did hail, And every ship poured fire and flame. The streams of blood from our scuppers did flow, The blue sea rolled with purple gore. We'll burn their boats and flatten their mountains, We'll make their blood to flow like fountains. Well from our side broke the British thunder, And that's how we'll keep our enemies under. From singing of Johnny Collins AG apr97 |
Subject: RE: Origin: Roll Agamemnon Roll / Mars for Evermore From: Herga Kitty Date: 17 May 22 - 03:00 AM Johnny's recording of this was played at his funeral on 13 August 2009. Kitty |
Subject: RE: Origin: Roll Agamemnon Roll / Mars for Evermore From: GUEST,Wm Date: 22 May 22 - 05:08 PM John Paddy Browne includes the song in FOLK SONGS OF OLD HAMPSHIRE (Milestone Publications, 1987); this is the sole reference to the song in Robert Waltz's Ballad Index. Browne's book intersperses old and new songs he regards as native to the region; the "old" songs (varying in antiquity from Henry V's Conquest of France to Buttercup Joe) are given without any attribution, while the songs written by Browne's contemporaries are explicitly cited . . . except for this one. Browne does cite A.L. Lloyd several times elsewhere in the volume, including his own conversations with Lloyd about the nature/definition of folksong. If the song's attribution to Lloyd elsewhere in this thread are accurate, presumably he passed it off to Browne, and Browne (for whatever reason) seems to have regarded it as traditional. But I can't imagine that is. Even if Lloyd truly rearranged this from a broadside ballad, exactly what broadside was it? I can't identify a likely candidate after a quick perusal through the Bodleian's online archive, and a fair chunk of the text (e.g., "flatten their mountains / "flow like fountains") seems to belong to Lloyd's poetic voice. -- Mars for Evermore, as given by John Paddy Browne, 1987: Well now, brave boys, we’re off to the main, Roar Agamemnon, roar, To load our ships with the dollars of Spain, Mars for evermore! They tell us thirty ships of the line Roar Agamemnon, roar, From France and Spain on the sea do shine, Mars for evermore! Those ships of France and Spain my [sic] shine, Roar Agamemnon, roar, But they’ll not forget the year ‘05, Mars for evermore! The guns did rattle and the shot did hail, Roar Agamemnon, roar, And every ship fought fire and flame, Mars for evermore! The streams of blood from their scuppers did flow, Roar Agamemnon, roar, The blue sea ran with purple gore, Mars for evermore! We’ll burn their boats and flatten their mountains, Roar Agamemnon, roar, We’ll make their blood to flow like fountains, Mars for evermore! Well from our guns blew the British thunder, Roar Agamemnon, roar, And that’s how we keep our enemies under, Mars for evermore! |
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