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BS: Wall Street Protesters...

Related threads:
Occupy Wall Street Songs (33)
a song for Wall Street (6)
BS: The Meaning of OWS (Occupy Wall Street) (31)
PETE (Seeger at Occupy Wall Street) (21)
Songs For The 99% (11)


Little Hawk 18 Oct 11 - 07:16 PM
Lox 18 Oct 11 - 06:44 PM
akenaton 18 Oct 11 - 06:11 PM
Bobert 18 Oct 11 - 05:21 PM
dick greenhaus 18 Oct 11 - 04:49 PM
Little Hawk 18 Oct 11 - 03:55 PM
GUEST,999 18 Oct 11 - 03:55 PM
Don Firth 18 Oct 11 - 03:06 PM
akenaton 18 Oct 11 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,999 18 Oct 11 - 02:48 PM
Little Hawk 18 Oct 11 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,999 18 Oct 11 - 01:30 PM
dick greenhaus 18 Oct 11 - 12:57 PM
Lox 18 Oct 11 - 11:56 AM
Lox 18 Oct 11 - 11:50 AM
dick greenhaus 18 Oct 11 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,999 18 Oct 11 - 11:07 AM
Bobert 18 Oct 11 - 09:27 AM
Lox 18 Oct 11 - 04:52 AM
Don Firth 18 Oct 11 - 12:54 AM
Little Hawk 17 Oct 11 - 11:28 PM
GUEST,999 17 Oct 11 - 10:39 PM
Songwronger 17 Oct 11 - 10:24 PM
ollaimh 17 Oct 11 - 10:05 PM
Bobert 17 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM
dick greenhaus 17 Oct 11 - 08:47 PM
Don Firth 17 Oct 11 - 08:24 PM
Bobert 17 Oct 11 - 07:22 PM
dick greenhaus 17 Oct 11 - 07:04 PM
GUEST,999 17 Oct 11 - 06:07 PM
Bobert 17 Oct 11 - 01:51 PM
Lox 17 Oct 11 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 17 Oct 11 - 11:39 AM
Lox 17 Oct 11 - 11:32 AM
GUEST,999 17 Oct 11 - 01:26 AM
GUEST,999 17 Oct 11 - 01:04 AM
Songwronger 16 Oct 11 - 08:52 PM
bobad 16 Oct 11 - 11:08 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Oct 11 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,999 16 Oct 11 - 07:39 AM
Don Firth 16 Oct 11 - 06:14 AM
akenaton 16 Oct 11 - 04:01 AM
ollaimh 16 Oct 11 - 12:49 AM
freda underhill 16 Oct 11 - 12:33 AM
Bobert 15 Oct 11 - 08:34 PM
Don Firth 15 Oct 11 - 08:28 PM
Bobert 15 Oct 11 - 08:00 PM
Don Firth 15 Oct 11 - 07:28 PM
Bobert 15 Oct 11 - 06:58 PM
Don Firth 15 Oct 11 - 02:40 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 07:16 PM

I agree, it has nothing to do with traditional party politics. Party politics is what has people presently hypnotized and enslaved to the status quo...and pitted against one another! Forming a 3rd party in the USA would be an exercise in futility. We don't need more political parties, and we don't need the existing political parties either. They are part of the problem. We need independent, nonpartisan social action on a massive scale....unconnected to party politics of any kind whatsoever.

That's what overturned the Mubarak government in Egypt...independent social action by millions of people. That's the only way. Political parties will not shake down or significantly alter the present power structure, because they are an essential part of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 06:44 PM

Well the good news is that the bug is so infectious that it is even causing traditional mudcat enemies to agree with each other.

Dick, this has nothing to do with party politics, whether you mean traditional parties or some 'new' alternative.

This is all about "democracy" ie - government by the people.

And most people don't trust party politics.

Most people don't trust politicians.

And most people definitely don't trust the 1% of capitalists who own the politicians.

Whats different?

The people are making0 their own media and propaganda - we aren't as manipulable when social media is taking over from corporate media.

We are able to organize quickly and effectively.

Look at 38 degrees - look at Avaaz ... but most of all, look how fast the riots spread in England earlier this year .... and how easy it was to run rings around the police.

A serious sustained political movement, whether it be a strike or other peaceful non-cooperation would be 1000 times as effective.

The grapevine has gone digital.


We want democracy back, we want to be paid properly and we want basic human rights like proper health care and housing.

We've seen the courage of protesters in Egypt and Syria and we are becoming emboldened and more politicized.

We aren't so easy to pacify and hypnotize as our focus is not on TV, be it "news" or be it shit propaganda masquerading as rubbish ads and sit coms.

Gil scott heron was right - the revolution will not be televised ...

... it might be on facebook and twitter though!

(and a little corner might even be on mudcat)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 06:11 PM

One minute ago, I saw M moore on BBC tv, when asked what he wanted from OWS, he replied that he wanted a completely new system...."the end of Capitalism.....an evil system"

Even if that is what the movement wants.....and its what I want! We still have to convince millions of ordinary people who are not politically motivated, to give up the crumbs they have gleaned from under the rich mans table; and the madness of "liberal" ideology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 05:21 PM

The best way to deal with a bully is to stand up to him... That is what OWS is doing and every day that goes by there are more folks joining in to stand up to the bully... What all this does is counters some of the right winged propagandists and presents a different narrative... The right wing has controlled the conversation for 30 years... That's what OWS is all about...

Changing the conversation!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 04:49 PM

I was around (and active) back in 1947 where a massive protest wound up producing some good songs, the Progressive Party and not much else.
Yes Don, the muscles come from voters. But a third party has historically been a disaster, serving only the party that the protesters like least, whether it be headed by a Ralph Nader or a Ross Perot. What does work is having a voting bloc effectively co-opt one of the existing parties, as The Tea Partisans have done with the GOP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:55 PM

Possibly. How do you shake the politicians (meaning the candidates) loose from the pursestrings that control most of them? Until you have shaken a majority of them loose from that form of influence, your vote means little or nothing...given that the choices you've been given to vote FOR have usually all been bought out already. If you have no candidate available who WILL honestly represent you once elected...who do you vote for?

And how can your vote then effect real change?

The candidate in the last election whom I felt DID represent honesty and real change was Dennis Kucinich. He was not the candidate which the Democratic Party selected to run, needless to say. People like him do not GET selected by either of the major parties...nor do they get sufficient friendly coverage from the corporate media to have a hope in hell of BEING selected.

You know...the mass media can get someone elected nowadays. They do it by giving that person the right kind of media coverage. It can be orchestrated very effectively, and it is, in my opinion.

Since the mass media are owned by a few very rich people, don't you think those people will support a candidate who looks after their interests? In fact...they'll support only a candidate who looks after their interests...make that 2 candidates who will look after their interests....and they'll back whoever's outer style seems most marketable at the time. In 2008 that was Mr Obama. It was "time to dump the Republicans", and that was done very handily. But so what? In 2012 it may be somebody else, not Mr Obama, but it's just a big phony game as far as I'm concerned...because if Candidate A and Candidate B both end up serving the elite once elected, what the hell difference does it make which one the non-elite (we the 99 %) vote for?

Yeah, there may be a "lesser of two evils"... But I think we deserve a lot better than that. We need genuine transformation of this society, not more dissimulation and new "faces" pasted over the old system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:55 PM

Ake, I am on my way out the door. I'll be back in an hour and try my best to explain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:06 PM

If Oliver, who walked up to the master with his bowl in his hands and said, "Please, sir, I want some more," in a deep, resonant voice coming from a lad with the size and general musculature of Conan the Barbarian……..methinks they would have given him more!

OWS wants are straightforward and obvious. Make the wealthy, super-wealthy, and corporations pay their fair share of taxes, put a stop to these endless and pointless wars, and restore the regulations on Wall Street, the banks, and other financial institutions—plus, make the Wall Street Ponzi schemes illegal.

Clear. To the point. Non-negotiable.

And where are all those Conan the Barbarian-size muscles? That should be obvious as well:

The vast majority of the Wall Street Occupiers are voters. And that, obviously, includes the power to withhold one's vote from particular politicians as well.

Seems pretty simple to me. Maybe even simple enough for our elected officials to grasp.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:00 PM

Yes I must say Bruce, that modern communications technology designed to turn a profit for Capitalism, has proved to be something of a "Trojan Horse".....rapid communications and the transfer of information is now a valuable weapon against the system.

The problem is and always was, how do we convince those with something to lose .....and that is a huge majority in our respective countries.....to ditch it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 02:48 PM

I learned part of that from you, LH. Takes a while, but some stuff actually sunk in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 02:16 PM

999, I think you have grasped the vital point that has been eluding most people for a very long time. Well said all the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 01:30 PM

Thank you, Lox.

The following is a snip from a Reuters article on the web:

'Like many other protest movements this year, they [OWS, UK] appear almost completely leaderless, initially co-ordinated via social media platforms, inspired by events overseas and now making decisions through long, consensus-based meetings on issues from sanitation to their wider agenda.

With their generally peaceful approach and hope of finding an ill-defined "better way" to manage international capital and politics, the largely educated crowd appeared in stark contrast to the tough, angry urban youth who brought chaos and looting to London and other cities in August riots.'

Dick, many of the people there are educated. Some have high school, some college and others bachelor's, master's and even doctorate degrees from good learning institutions. They would get the 'joke' (read put down) about beachfront in Arizona. Thing is, that seems to be what Wall Street's been selling for decades, and they have at last been found out by John and Jane Doe.

The law suits filed against the Bank of America may cast more light on the whole sordid situation, but folks are wise enough to see that the court decisions, appeals and further decisions will take years, about the same number of years it took to bring the present 'crisis' to prominence--a fifteen trillion dollar crisis started when Reagan came to power and a crisis deepened by every chief executive since then.

The biggest enemy Wall Street has is common people and their new-found ability to speak WITH each other. Don't need the help of the power elite to interpret what folks are saying so they can let us all know what we think. As individuals we already know what we think. As a non-cohesive group (the rabble) we have a freedom of movement unlike never before.

The only way to "beat the house" (or House in this case) is not to play the game. The only way to win the war is not show up for any battles. We are the backdrop against which the media, Congress, Wall Street and multinationals will be shown to continue their games, and the longer that happens more people will see and understand and the more people will see and understand.

Some martial arts, for example, require that the opposition give the first strike, and in real life I have seen attackers fall over themselves trying to strike something that just wasn't there any longer. We are at our best being 'there' without being there. Hard to grasp, and THAT'S the point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 12:57 PM

Just what sort of change do you envision?
I am an enthusiastic supporter of people organizing and speaking out; it's just that I think it's useful to know to whom you're doing the speaking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:56 AM

Oliver twist didn't get any more, but thanks to the writing of Dickens, and the organization of the labour movement, there are no more workhouses.

That change wouldn't have happened if people hadn't spoken out.

In fact, that change ha[pened precisely because people organized and spoke out.

So Dick, you are simply wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:50 AM

Well Peace,

I think that may be your best written and best illustrated mudcat post to date.

And I agree with every word.

And it should of course be remembered that Dickens wasn't writing some mere piece of fantasy, but referring explicitly to the reality of life for those on the bottom in society when they are not protected from the ravages of the richest in society.

If there were no social welfare in the UK, that is how things would still be today.

Time for society to evolve further!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:49 AM

Anyone who believes that any financial institution will change its policies simply because there a large and loud protest is a prime candidate for buying waterfront property in Arizona. As I recall, Oliver Twist, within the system of the establishment he was living in, didn't get any more.
   OWS could be a mighty force by simply threatening to campaign against any candidate who refuse to vote for tax increases for the wealthy. Or who voted for cuts to Social Security....or, pick an issue.
Less dramatic than banjos and bongos, but much more effective.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:07 AM

Anyone who's ever heard "Chimes of Freedom" and understood it will know why the OWS people have no intention of 'choosing from the issues' they bring to the table. The manifesto makes that clear I think. They do not want to buy into typecasting, pigeonholes or a specific battlefield. And why should they?

I notice an advertisement that pops up on Mudcat about 'the nine best stocks to invest in'. The very pervasiveness of that stuff indicates a sophistication that far outranks anything the OWS movement has--but that said, fu#k 'em. There is NO advantage to be gained by saying take away the sales tax and we'll all go home like good little girls and boys. We know where the media is at and it's clear who they support: the media support their owners, NOT their customers. Those 'with' will never support those 'without' and its foolish to think they ever will.

The Bank of America is up to its a$$ in lawsuits and it's scared. I don't think Mr Moynihan is sleeping the sleep of the just.

###############################################

"The evening arrived; the boys took their places. The master, in his cook's uniform, stationed himself at the copper; his pauper assistants ranged themselves behind him; the gruel was served out; and a long grace was said over the short commons. The gruel disappeared; the boys whispered each other, and winked at Oliver; while his next neighbours nudged him. Child as he was, he was desperate with hunger, and reckless with misery. He rose from the table; and advancing to the master, basin and spoon in hand, said: somewhat alarmed at his own temerity:

"Please, sir, I want some more."

The master was a fat, healthy man; but he turned very pale. He gazed in stupefied astonishment on the small rebel for some seconds, and then clung for support to the copper. The assistants were paralysed with wonder; the boys with fear.

"What!" said the master at length, in a faint voice.

"Please, sir," replied Oliver, "I want some more."

The master aimed a blow at Oliver's head with the ladle; pinioned him in his arms; and shrieked aloud for the beadle.

The board were sitting in solemn conclave, when Mr. Bumble rushed into the room in great excitement, and addressing the gentleman in the high chair, said,

"Mr. Limbkins, I beg your pardon, sir! Oliver Twist has asked for more!"

There was a general start. Horror was depicted on every countenance.

"For (r)more!¯" said Mr. Limbkins. "Compose yourself, Bumble, and answer me distinctly. Do I understand that he asked for more, after he had eaten the supper allotted by the dietary?"

"He did, sir," replied Bumble.

"That boy will be hung," said the gentleman in the white waistcoat. "I know that boy will be hung."

Nobody controverted the prophetic gentleman's opinion. An animated discussion took place. Oliver was ordered into instant confinement; and a bill was next morning pasted on the outside of the gate, offering a reward of five pounds to anybody who would take Oliver Twist off the hands of the parish. In other words, five pounds and Oliver Twist were offered to any man or woman who wanted an apprentice to any trade, business, or calling.

"I never was more convinced of anything in my life," said the gentleman in the white waistcoat, as he knocked at the gate and read the bill next morning: "I never was more convinced of anything in my life, than I am that that boy will come to be hung."

As I purpose to show in the sequel whether the white-waistcoated gentleman was right or not, I should perhaps mar the interest of this narrative (supposing it to possess any at all), if I ventured to hint just yet, whether the life of Oliver Twist had this violent termination or no."

Dickens (with a Twist)

##############################################

Forty-six percent of Congress are millionaires. Sixty million people live below the poverty line, whatever THAT is. Washington itself seems to dare not mention issues of substance lest it arouse the rabble. Well, the rabble is aroused, it's angry and it's tougher than anyone thought.

Decision theory, general equilibrium theory and mechanism design theory all indicate that it is stupid to play the game. But it's smart to understand the game being played by Wall Street and the folks it represents.

The minute OWS says, THIS is what we want, THIS is our goal, that is the minute the movement can be quantified and dealt with. There there be dragons. It is NOT in OWS's best interests to answer the question because that then defines the movement and provides Wall Street--the term I'm using for Congress, stock markets and multinationals--with information about where best to stick the knife.

No point doing their thinking for them. They know already. It's Wall Street that has left unanswered questions, not OWS. It continues to go about its business, and we will continue to go about ours, thank you very much.

IMO


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 09:27 AM

What Don and Lox have said... Helen Keller can clearly see the goals of this movement from her grave...

What OWS is avoiding, and for very good reason, is becoming policy wonks and writing 200 pages policy "white papers" dealing with every last detail... That's not what this is about and would be counter-productive because then the right wing would employ an army of stat-men and bloggers to redefine the movement by starting hundreds of mini-wars over minute details... This is what they do when they know they are on the wrong side of issues... This is exactly what Teribus did here at Mudcat during the mad-dash-to-Iraq days...

We're not going to be suckered into that trap... Tax the rich works just fine... End the wars works fine... Re-regulate Wall Street works fine...

And, yes, this is BIG "corporate" MEDIA mischief... We've seen it before... There is no "liberal media"... That is just right wing mythology that is based on them wanting 100% control of the conversation... Just like now, they are peddling propaganda with this "OWS doesn't have goals" BS... That is propaganda... USDA Choice propaganda...

Hey, we've earned the right to have the conversation that we want to have and we're not going to be "fooled again"...

Our conversation!!! Our terms!!! Our time!!!

Anyone who doesn't like it is either part of the 1% or brainwashed by the 1%...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 04:52 AM

"The OWS protests have no focus. No goals. And because of that they are easily manipulated."

Not true.

This is a mainstream media lie.

If you look up the general assembly or the "occupy" websites, you will see that there is a very clear and concise set of demands that people are happy to rally behind.

Folks - these events have been happening all over the world - not just in lots of American cities, but all over the UK and europe, South America and even as far away as china.

As for the football analogy - dick has misapplied boberts analogy, as boberts analogy is based on the idea of the players of one team being succesful against the players of the other. Dick is talking about spectators.

The OWS demonstrators are not spectators. they, and we are all players.

Working people are saying - if you want us to participate, you must renegotiate the deal.

It is very clear and simple.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 12:54 AM

Interesting, Songwronger. I did a little Googling on the names you mentioned. Vlad Teichberg and Peter Gelderloos. Yes, they are avowed "anarchists," but the only really negative information I've been able to find about them comes from

Steady, now…..

Fox News Service!

Vlad Teichberg's main concern seem to be that the news media in general was simply ignoring the demonstrations, and he set about filming them and trying to publicizing them. Somehow, I see nothing wrong with that. Quite the contrary.

And some of the ideas of Peter Gelderloos, who is opposed to non-violent resistance (and has written a book on the subject), seems to have some pretty draconian ideas, but he won't find many in the OWS movement who will agree with him on that point. Not much influence there!

Leading the Occupy Wall Street protest? Financing them?

Again, these allegations come from Fox News!

Quelle surprise!!

The OWS protests have focus and their goals are quite specific, as a matter of fact. And these folks are not easily manipulated. Quite the contrary, in fact.

If Teichberg and Gelderloos are involved with OWS in any way, other than Teichberg's trying to call attention to it and Gelderloos's apparent contention that the demonstraters should indulge in violence, it appears that they are running like hell, trying to get in front of the movement, so they can look like they're leading it. As in:

"I have to see which way the people are going so I can get out in front and be their leader!"

You really need to get out more, Songwronger. Go to one of the protest gatherings and talk to some of the people involved. Find out for yourself rather that taking the word of Fox News or a bunch of Right Wing blogs.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 11:28 PM

We'll have to find someone who "knows everything" and get him to answer that one.

Any volunteers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 10:39 PM

Who are the Democrats running for president in the next election, anyone know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 10:24 PM

Yes, exactly, a uniting theme. In the U.S. it would be good to pursue two points. 1) Tax Wall Street's financial transactions. They're currently not taxed. Levy a 1% tax on financial transactions. 2) Bring back the Glass-Steagall Act, which separated commercial and investment banking. The derivatives problem exploded when this act was repealed in 1996.

The OWS protests have no focus. No goals. And because of that they are easily manipulated.

Look up the names Vlad Teichberg and Peter Gelderloos. They're "anarchists" who specialize in guiding demonstrations. They're currently up to their eyes in the OWS stuff. Anarchy. When something positive could be achieved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: ollaimh
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 10:05 PM

they have regulated capitalism in sweden and most of scandanavia. it works fine. they are affected by the ills in the rest of the world but they are not as affected as some countries. in canada we had a moderately regulated capitalism, under the liberals. surprise, we had no bank failures and ran budget surplusses for eleven years straight.

we had growth we just din't let the ponzi scheme capitalist steal all the money!

they were very creative about it but the fact reamins that between 1990 and 2008 they manufactured securities out of thin air that didn't exist before that time and those securities quardrupled the securities traded in new york. you have admire their ambition but the same way you admire the ambition of people like napoleon or hitler.

real growth depends on real production. the growth of the nineties to the crash was paper growth, taking advantage of americas premier position in the worlds capital markets but exporting millions of real jobs and allowing the collapse of infrastructure. now you have agutted economy that is either going to take years to recover --if at all--or will need massive infrastructure and educastional investment. the latter seems oposed by most american politicians, however it is likely the only road to real growth.

so go protestors go--and get a uniting theme,

like

BRING THE JOBS HOME


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM

No, dick... You have it wrong... "Anger and enthusiasm" is what brought about the Civil Rights Act...l

Not exactly a football game...

Lyndon Johnson wasn't going to get the Civil Rights Act passed without the hundreds of thousands of people who did what they could do to create an environment for that to happen...

That's the way it was...

If you don't get people thinking about stuff then when you try to make a change it will be rejected...

OWS is doing ***exactly*** what the civil rights people were doing in the early 60s....

Give them (us) a break... This ain't a friggin' pep rally...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 08:47 PM

Bobert- It may be a lousy analogy, but it's yours.

"My generation got the ball down the field fairly well with the civil rights movement (also not "useless") and this generation has picked up the ball and going to get it a little further down the field... "

The success of the Civil Rights Movement was a political accomplishment of Lyndon Johnson.

The anger and enthusiasm of the movement can produce some really meaningful changes if it's directed towards producing some political muscle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 08:24 PM

One solid "through-line" that some politicians get, and that they all need to get if they want to stay in politics is that, even though they—and Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and that collection of weasels—denigrate the OWS protesters and the hundreds of mirror groups all over the country, such as "Occupy Seattle," as misguided or hooligans or worse, is that they are all—

Voters.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 07:22 PM

Lousy analogy, dick...

My generation took to the streets to get the Civil Rights Act as law...

The Civil Rights Act ain't a stupid football game...

Your answer is disrespectful to everyone who fought for civil rights...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 07:04 PM

Back when I was in college, I attended a lot of football rallies. Much enthusiasm, but I never recall one affecting the game's outcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 06:07 PM

People who do complain about OWS--like the taxi guy who's neither all that funny nor all that informed--can complain all they want. It ain't about them, it's about the 99%. We've been fucked over for years, and it's now time to return the favour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 01:51 PM

As for OWS being "useless"???

What a crock of weasel shit...

Reality is that there 2 options for oppressed people: accept it or fight it... No middle ground... No third option...

OWS is fighting it... It's that simple...

And guess what??? As we demonstrate we are seeing hotel workers, restaurant workers, laborers, and people everywhere waving and cheering in support... OWS is laying out some very basic demands for justice and equality...

My generation got the ball down the field fairly well with the civil rights movement (also not "useless") and this generation has picked up the ball and going to get it a little further down the field... It is a struggle but it's time for the fight... The working class has not seen any increase in their wages (after inflation) for over 30 years and there has been a massive redistribution of wealth to the upper 5% (most to the upper 1%)... So it's time for some adjustments...

Time to change the conversation... Time to get our message out... It's time... It's time...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 01:33 PM

There is nothing in these protests that criticizes enterprise or market economics.

There is no such thing as a completely free market, or you would see legal drugs and child porn etc.

So we accept that a market can't be totally free.

But thats just a distraction anyway.

Labour is not an infinite resource and it would seem that in this market, the monetary value of labour has been set too low, with the result that the labour force is becomng coordinated.

This is about renegotiating the terms between those who own the means of production and the people upon whom they rely for the success of their industries.

The recent crisis and the way the governments of the world and the IMF have gone about dealing with it has highlighted the obscene inequalities that exist in the world and the corruption and nepotism that exist between capitalists and government.


It has also highlighted the effectiveness of social media as a political tool.


I believe Marxs predictions are beginning to come true. Not in any cliched sense, nor in the way that the worlds "communist" dictators have tried to contrive, but in the inevitable way that simply must occur when so few so greedily insist on possessing so much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 11:39 AM

I `ad one of them protesters in my cab last night. `e`ad `is guitar and Woody Guthrie song book and `e was going up to join a group in the City called "Folk Against Freemarkets"
I said, " `oo you got it in for, then?"
`e said, "All of `em, Jim. Barclays, M&$, BP, Tesco, Vodaphone, Nat.West. That lot for starters."
I said, You gotta credit card?"
`e said, "Yeah, but......"
I said, "That`s a nice pair of jeans you got on."
`e said, "Oh, I know that but......."
I said, "You drive a car?"
`e said, "Oh yeah but they all do that."
I said, "You gotta reward card and a mobile phone?."
`e said, "Oh, I know that but....."
I said, "Seems to me you need them more than they need you!!"

Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 11:32 AM

Marx said that Capitalism would inevitably fail and that the proletariat would eventually communicate, coordinate, organize and refuse to put up gross inequality and exploitation any more.

Here we have a situation where the proletariat are doing just that.

The target is capital and its relationship with the ruling classes.


The target is Neo-liberal politics


and Ake says they should go and read a book.


Apart from being laughably ignorant, this is about as reactionary as you can be without trying to shut them up.


This is the same Ake who moans about freedom of speech and purports t be a critic of neo-liberalism.


I'd gladly give yhim a job talking into a balloon to stop it sinking!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 01:26 AM

OOPS. I meant to write 60 million, not 60%. Old age, exuberance and beer. Please pardon me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 01:04 AM

Hi, Songwronger.

You're right. I also heard from another trusted friend that in Texas the Democrats are getting THEIR faces in it and helping the OWS folks along. Seems it's lots like incest: keep it in the family.

Thing is, they both need the 60 percent living below the poverty line--half of whom are voters, and until such time as they both put up or shut up, they need us more than we need them. That's the trump card, and if no one gives it away, they got NO choice BUT to deal. Thing is, promises don't cut it this time. SUTMOSTFU. (That's for Wall Street and the politicians, not you.)

An important thing to remember about hardball: if yer forced into the game, pitch!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 08:52 PM

This is interesting. The woman at THIS BLOG writes about the demonstrations in Spain this past summer. The protestors called themselves the Indignados. Young liberals for the most part. The people leading the movement convinced them that they could show "the establishment" disdain by not voting in the upcoming elections, and the young people complied. The right-wing party made huge gains. The young liberals were tricked by what turned out to be right-wing leadership.

And now some of the people who ran that operation are in New York City helping with the OWS protests.

One of the things the organizers in Spain did was to march people around in useless demonstrations, venting steam and energy with pointless activity. The same thing's being done in the OWS protests. And then there's all the talk about "consensus." It'll never be reached, and that's the point of forcing the consensus model on movements like this--to make sure the group never comes together as a whole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: bobad
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 11:08 AM

Some more notable signs from the Occupy Protests:

`The American dream is a pyramid scheme.`

`Èat the rich, they taste like chicken.`


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 09:36 AM

Bruce, may I put that on the 'Occupy Wall St' Facebook page? Mine also, and several other 'Occupy' pages? (Obviously, giving your name as Author)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 07:39 AM

The following is the introduction to a short story I wrote about five years ago. I post it to point out that this stuff ain't news to everyone--with no offense meant to anyone.

"We live on a planet that cries for our help, yet we continue to ignore those cries. We have despoiled our home and proven ourselves to be seriously remiss as respectable and responsible stewards. There is now a concerted effort by various governments, multi-nationals and special-interest groups to control the production and distribution of all resources. Eventually that will lead to a similar fate for people. We should be working hard to prevent this from happening, for ultimately Earth belongs not to a self-appointed elite, but rather to all God's creatures, great and small."

############################################

We have known since the earliest days of electronic banking that our system had troubles. Hell, we've known since 1929 that our system has troubles. The initial Wall Street Crash in '29 told us all we need to know. Absolutely nothing changed on the Wednesday after Black Tuesday--but people thought it had changed, and so it did.

As an eight-year old kid I knew 'something' was screwed up because jujubes went from four for a penny to three for a penny. I defy anyone to tell me that the value of the lowly jujube changed so drastically from one day to the next. I saw the same thing happen in a town I lived in where house prices doubled in a few months. I've seen the same thing between 1959 and the present with bread prices. When I was a young teenager, my grandmother sent me blocks out of my way (she thought the exercise was good for me) to buy what was then called 'day-old-bread'. Fresh, it was $.17 a loaf. Day-old was two loaves for that price. Today, the same loaf of bread sells for about $3.00 when it's on 'sale'. And jujubes go for about $.04 each.

A few years back the subject of conspiracy theories came up again on Mudcat. At the time a few of us were ridiculed because we suggested one might find the roots of the problem in what has come to be called 'the new world order'. Despite pointing out that the term has been in use since the late 1800s, we were told to put on our tinfoil hats because it was just blather, we should wait for the little green men, etc. Anyone want to borrow my hat?

In fact, Sir Isaac Newton who was the person who moved much of the world to what was called the gold standard in the early 1700s. It was in 1819 that Britain formally adopted it and it was in 1971 that the standard was finally formally dropped by the USA simply because there wasn't enough gold in "Fort Knox" to support the currency that was floating around.

A google of

D.L. Cuddy: Chronological History of the New World Order

contains a research of the term New World Order, and it is worth reading, imo. It is an unfortunate document in that some people are quoted just enough out of context or with insufficient information to easily check their credibility--but the basic information is there. For example,

'1954 -- Senator William Jenner said:

"Today the path to total dictatorship in the United States can be laid by strictly legal means, unseen and unheard by the Congress, the President, or the people... outwardly we have a Constitutional government. We have operating within our government and political system, another body representing another form of government, a bureaucratic elite which believes our Constitution is outmoded and is sure that it is the winning side.... All the strange developments in the foreign policy agreements may be traced to this group who are going to make us over to suit their pleasure.... This political action group has its own local political support organizations, its own pressure groups, its own vested interests, its foothold within our government, and its own propaganda apparatus."'

What isn't mentioned is that he was a follower of Senator Joe McCarthy and he was talking about communism. However, a rose by another name . . .

The following kinda sums it up.

'In 1913, prior to the passage of the Federal Reserve Act President Wilson's The New Freedom was published, in which he revealed:

"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the U. S., in the field of commerce and manufacturing, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."'

I hesitate to call the above a conspiracy theorist. That's the usual 'ridicule' thrown at people who are coming to realize that maybe there actually IS such a thing and that while we think in terms of shorter time spans (mortgage of twenty years, TV shows of 24 minutes called a half hour, etc) there is nothing odd historically of thinking in terms of a few hundred years. The Chinese have been doing it for centuries (as it were).

I have thrice on Mudcat (I think) drawn attention to the article by Cuddy mostly because it documents the use of terms closely related to NWO. In fact, four or five American presidents have publicly acknowledged the term although each within different contexts. That said, they have used the term in such a way that maybe it's time folks had a good look at it.

Forget if you wish the use of names like Illuminati, Bilderbergers, Trilateral Commission, etc. We don't need them to demonstrate that "Something is happening here and ya don't know what it is, do you, Mr Jones."

It's lots simpler for this old boy: fuckin' jujubes cost sixteen times what they did when I was a kid dammit, and that's a rip-off of gigantic proportions, because as happened with the lowly jujube so too happens with bread, houses and 401's.

Forty-six percent of the people elected to congress are millionaires. To quote from a song by the Dixie Chicks,

'There's Your Trouble, There's Your Trouble
You Keep Seeing Double With The Wrong One
You Can't See I Love You, You Can't See She Doesn't
But You Just Keep Holding On
There's Your Trouble'


Felt good to get that off my chest. Have a nice day, all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 06:14 AM

Read what I said again, Ake.

Regulated Capitalism.

That means NOT putting members of the particular business or industry on the agency that is supposed to be regulating it. Putting bankers and Wall Street brokers on the Securities and Exchange Commission and putting executives from pharmaceutical companies on the Food and Drug Administration, for example. THAT was Ronald Reagan's contribution to the dismantling of the regulatory agencies that FDR put in place in the 1930s that were a major factor in ending the Great Depression.

I know that as an avowed communist, anything having to do with capitalism is an anathema to you, but the fact is that capitalism works well IF it is properly regulated. I see no historical evidence that communism ever worked well, except on a very small scale.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 04:01 AM

Don...that is the problem, "regulated Capitalism" no longer provides the growth required to keep the economy solvent.

That is why we have witnessed the series of "booms" in the last couple of decades, these booms were not only the work of corrupt bankers and financiers, but actively encouraged by capitalist governments, as a survival mechanism.

What i am saying is that without systemic change, the whole protest movement is counter productive.
It reinforces the idea, that this system can be repaired by stopping the financial sector doing what they are supposed to do under Capitalism.

If economic growth falls, your standard of living and public servces fall with it, how many of your young protesters realise that?......now is the time to go for real change....and I mean the way people think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: ollaimh
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 12:49 AM

and furthermore, without getting into the theory of money, not monatary theory, i am no monatarists. money is over ninety per cent held in financial forms other than specie. that is other than coins bills gold silver.

banks and other financial institutions keep most money in records with no actual folding money form. the money supply therefore is greatly affected by loans debentures bonds and other financial instruments. the more issued the more inflation of the money supplu and a rise in prices. so what i am getting at is the five fold increase in bank created securities done on wall street in the post 1999 "creative" financila boom following deregulation resulted in a significant increase in the money supply. however the inflationary effect were slow in the non financial economy. the prices of securities rose percipitously due to the increase in the money supply then as the price raises flowed into the main economy the "bubble" stableized then burst.

the investmnent bankers who created all these new bundled securities, options, derivitives and debentures, and even credit default swaps sold off their own holding before the boom hit the regular economy. in other words they created the boom , sold near the high but enough before the bust to avoid being asked too many questions, then sold off these inflated securities to the unsuspecting.

essentially,this was the largest ponzie scheme in history. and the smart guys were long gone by the time people were getting nervous. and long before the bust. most of the really big profiteers were the very same people who created these new financial instruments in the first place.deregulation handed controll over the money supply to the profiteers who knew how to manipulate the m oney supply. moreover these new securities were created with no deposit hedge that used to be put into the investments by backs before deregulation. in other words the banks stopped putting any of their own money into these securities they were selling. an example is credit default swaps, which used to be a kind of insurance when offered by investment banks who financed them themselves, but the ones out there now have to issuer deposit. they depend entirely on market psychology for their value and are pure specualtion. rather than the insurance they used to be. they were used to spread ones risk over several sectors of the securities market by swapiing with other investement banks . now they are purely speculative instruments.

the biggest ponzie scheme in history , with the tax payer stuck with the bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 12:33 AM

Four Charts That Explain why the Protesters Are Angry..


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 08:34 PM

Our turn, Don!!!

Cowabunga!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 08:28 PM

After spemding a lot of years gnashing my teeth, I feel good about this.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 08:00 PM

I have not been staying for the "General Assembly" meetings, Don because they go into the night but I have been making my feelings known at OccupyCharlotte.com... The "General Aseembly" stuff is more for the younginz... They are the ones who stand to suffer much worse than we have... They don't need a bunch of their grandparents and parents telling them how to do stuff... They have their shit together and I love it... I'll do what I can do with noise and whatever they want me to do...

BTW, the sign I made for today's demonstration simply read "THINK 1776"... Lotta folks commented on it and my reply was "Meet the new Brit, same as the old Brit"... or "No taxation without representation"...

I'm loving this... Never in my wildest imagination would we see a global uprising against the rich and the cheaters...

This is just where we were headed when the right took out our leaders in the 60s...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 07:28 PM

Thanks for the "on-the-scene" reports, Bobert!

Being wheelchair-bound, it isn't easy for me to get on a bus and head down to Westlake Park here in Seattle, but from reports I get from people who were there, these folks really do know where they're coming from and what they are there for. And the reactions of those who work in the area or who are passing through are almost always positive and encouraging (except for the occasional sorehead, of course).

Unlike New York City, even Seattle's mayor is sympathetic with the "Occupiers!"

It's real easy for people sitting in front of their computers and who have never been near the scene to sneer and pontificate. They are the ones who don't know what it's all about. But that sure doesn't stop them from venturing their opinions. For what they're worth.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 06:58 PM

Well, the biggest difference between this weeks demonstration and last week's was that every where we marched we were treated as heroes... I mean, people waving and honking... Might have only been 300-400 of *US* but seems there were hundreds, perhaps thousands of folks showing support... I mean, workers of the Omni Hotel coming out to applaud us... Bus drivers honking... Taxi drivers honking...

We are definitely showing the Tea Party what a thru grassroots movement looks like...

On a music side, I took two paddle drums and there was a kid who was there last week with a little toy drum and I gave him one and the two of us added quite a bit to the rally... I'm going to make a couple plastic 5 gallon paint bucket drums for next week and me and the kid will really make some noise...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 02:40 PM

Spoken like a true, old timey communist, Ake. There are still a few around here, too, sitting in the back booth of the Blue Moon Tavern, where they've been since the mid-1950s. Whining and moaning about how rotten the system is, but still just sitting and drinking, sitting and drinking, sitting and drinking…….

"Well where I come from, the people dont seem to have a clue what is happening to them....and they are quite pissed because their toys are being taken away."

I presume you're talking about the folks involved in the "Occupy" demonstrations around the country—and on the radio this morning, I heard that it's catching on in cities all over the world. Wrong-o, Ake! They DO know what has happened to them and is still happening and they are, as the line from the movie goes, "mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!!"

They KNOW what it's all about.

That's why they are there!

This is a possitive sign. A VERY positive sign!

Don Firth

P. S.   I am for regulated capitalism, preferential (instant run-off) voting, and hard-and-fast laws absolutely forbidding lobbying (polite name for bribery) and rigid regulations on campaign financing. Lots of other stuff, too, but that will do for now. I stayed awake during my high school civics classes, I know a bit of history, and I don't get my political views from radio talk shows.


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