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BS: Wall Street Protesters...

Related threads:
Occupy Wall Street Songs (33)
a song for Wall Street (6)
BS: The Meaning of OWS (Occupy Wall Street) (31)
PETE (Seeger at Occupy Wall Street) (21)
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GUEST,999 26 Oct 11 - 11:19 AM
Greg F. 26 Oct 11 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,John from Kemsing 26 Oct 11 - 12:26 PM
Don Firth 26 Oct 11 - 01:48 PM
Stringsinger 26 Oct 11 - 03:24 PM
Lox 26 Oct 11 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,999 26 Oct 11 - 04:04 PM
Bobert 26 Oct 11 - 04:07 PM
dick greenhaus 26 Oct 11 - 04:20 PM
Don Firth 26 Oct 11 - 04:32 PM
Lox 26 Oct 11 - 05:33 PM
Lox 26 Oct 11 - 05:48 PM
Lox 26 Oct 11 - 06:04 PM
Bobert 26 Oct 11 - 06:17 PM
Don Firth 26 Oct 11 - 06:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Oct 11 - 06:34 PM
bobad 26 Oct 11 - 06:48 PM
Lox 26 Oct 11 - 07:43 PM
Lox 26 Oct 11 - 07:47 PM
Bobert 26 Oct 11 - 07:55 PM
Lox 26 Oct 11 - 08:27 PM
Don Firth 26 Oct 11 - 08:28 PM
Don Firth 26 Oct 11 - 08:31 PM
Bobert 26 Oct 11 - 08:33 PM
Bobert 26 Oct 11 - 08:40 PM
Songwronger 26 Oct 11 - 09:55 PM
Don Firth 27 Oct 11 - 01:40 AM
Suffet 27 Oct 11 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,999 27 Oct 11 - 09:05 AM
Bobert 27 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM
akenaton 27 Oct 11 - 11:40 AM
Lox 27 Oct 11 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,999 27 Oct 11 - 12:24 PM
Little Hawk 27 Oct 11 - 12:27 PM
Bobert 27 Oct 11 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,999 27 Oct 11 - 12:52 PM
Little Hawk 27 Oct 11 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,999 27 Oct 11 - 01:41 PM
Lox 27 Oct 11 - 02:03 PM
Bobert 27 Oct 11 - 02:46 PM
Don Firth 27 Oct 11 - 03:19 PM
Bobert 27 Oct 11 - 04:09 PM
akenaton 27 Oct 11 - 04:20 PM
GUEST,999 27 Oct 11 - 04:21 PM
Don Firth 27 Oct 11 - 04:33 PM
Bobert 27 Oct 11 - 05:06 PM
Lox 27 Oct 11 - 05:48 PM
GUEST,999 27 Oct 11 - 07:24 PM
Little Hawk 28 Oct 11 - 01:20 AM
GUEST,cujimmy 28 Oct 11 - 04:50 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 11:19 AM

"The mayor was quoted as saying that an AK-47 was spoted in the crowd earlier in the day."

Well, that should garner support from the Tea Party then. Wasn't it they who carried firearms at some of their 1% rallies a while back?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 11:59 AM

Well, that should garner support from the Tea Party then.

Nah, to get the Tea Potty endorsement, they'd actually have to SHOOT some miserable revolutionary socialist liberal godless commie like Gabrielle Giffords.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 12:26 PM

Who makes millionaires millionaires?. Perhaps we should ask them to stop it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 01:48 PM

No, Lox, I'm not missing the point at all.

"As nice or as mean as he might be, he cannot be on 'our side' - his existence as an example of the divide between the super rich and ordinary people is a matter of concern."

I don't accept that. That's prejudicial thinking.

I've lived long enough to see peoples' viewpoints and values change as their circumstances change and they grow older, and sometimes, wiser. As, indeed, mine have changed and grown in the light of new knowledge and new insights. There are numerous stories of wealthy people who were hard-charging and often quite unethical when they are young, but as they grew older, their ideas—and there moral principles—altered.

History is full of examples. Without writing a whole treatise on the subject, look at the life of Andrew Carnegie, founder of U. S. Steel. Early on, he was as much a "robber baron" as many during his era—but in later life he turned his attention to philanthropy. In fact, he wrote books on the subject and urged his wealthy compatriots to turn their vast wealth into "doing real and permanent good in the world." Among his many philanthropic acts, he started a nationwide public library system. He also said, "He who dies rich dies in disgrace." In short, "Now that you have it, do some good with it."

This didn't end with Carnegie. Take a look at THIS.

I'm not about to condemn someone just because they have a lot of money. What are they DOING with that money is the important question.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 03:24 PM

It is important that OWS does not try to become a single issue movement. There are many different issues that OWS embraces and they all are contingent on one another.

America is now under siege and is headed toward an American Spring standing in solidarity with the oppressed people of Egypt, Syria, Bahrain and other countries.

Atlanta police have displayed riot squad police on horseback and 53 arrests have been made.

This Occupy Atlanta is a peaceful protest with the occupiers feeding and caring for the poor in Atlanta who have been pushed to the dark corners and are now abandoned. Mayor Kasim Reed has been disingenuous in his negotiations with the Occupiers using a kind of deception and violating his promise to allow the protesters to remain in Troy Davis Park (aka Woodruff Park) until November 7th. He has attempted to use local clergy as a dodge when they were unable to agree on how to meet. It wouldn't have mattered anyhow because the Mayor's mind was made up. This is the typical show of force that is being employed everywhere from Oakland to New York. Their statement is "We are the authorities and you people are nothing."

Free speech has been compromised in America and only given to those corporations that can pay for it.

This movement is not going away, it's just getting started.

If you don't know what OWS is about, you haven't been paying attention.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 04:01 PM

"That's prejudicial thinking."

No it isn't - you are not responding to my point, your response is to a point that I have not made but that you have inferred.


"I'm not about to condemn someone just because they have a lot of money"

Neither am I - again - you have inferred a point that I have not made.

Soros saying he is on the side of the 99% is as absurd as a poor teaparty supporter saying he is on the same team as the koch brothers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 04:04 PM

Strings,

As you said, OWS is not going away. The pressure to 'tell us what you want' has increased since the movement started. That is disingenuous crap. The folks asking know the answer damned well. I would counter any such question with 'instead, why don't YOU tell us why YOU think we're here'. Make them say it.

As the movement grows, it will encompass more and more people from all strata in society, from all colours of the spectrum, from all religions, from all languages, from all backgrounds and from all countries in the world where peaceful protest is allowed--a statement that carries serious overtones in itself. The human telephone is working. It is 'freeing' in a sense not to need mainstream media to give us the news. I want to hear what's going on from the Boberts, Mays, TIAs, Stringsingers--NOT Fox, MSN, NYT, etc. These people I trust. I have zero trust for the media on TV or radio. Too much spin, ya know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 04:07 PM

Yeah, I never get why the cops feel like they have to go thru the usual militaristic thing of dressing up like gladiators to arrest non-violent people who aren't going to go to war with them??? This alone should be part of what OWS is demanding... We don't need cops looking like robo-man... They are people, too, and it degrades them as people...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 04:20 PM

"Soros saying he is on the side of the 99% is as absurd as a poor teaparty supporter saying he is on the same team as the koch brothers."

Functionally, he is. It's the tea party supporters that are pushing the Republican Party into positions that benefit the Kochs mightily, to the detriment of the other 99%.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 04:32 PM

"Soros saying he is on the side of the 99% is as absurd as a poor teaparty supporter saying he is on the same team as the koch brothers."

WHY is that absurd?

You're going to have to explain that. You're condemning Soros solely on the basis that he is wealthy, without taking anything else into consideration.

Some background on Soros:
Soros, 81, is No. 7 on the Forbes 400 list with a fortune of US$22-billion, which has ballooned in recent years as he deftly responded to financial market turmoil. He has pledged to give away all his wealth, half of it while he earns it and the rest when he dies.

Like the protesters, Soros is no fan of the 2008 bank bailouts and subsequent government purchase of the toxic sub-prime mortgage assets they amassed in the property bubble.

The protesters say the Wall Street bank bailouts in 2008 left banks enjoying huge profits while average Americans suffered under high unemployment and job insecurity with little help from Washington. They contend that the richest 1% of Americans have amassed vast fortunes while being taxed at a lower rate than most people.

Soros in 2009 wrote in an editorial that the purchase of toxic bank assets would, "provide artificial life support for the banks at considerable expense to the taxpayer."

He urged the Obama administration to take bolder action, either by recapitalizing or nationalizing the banks and forcing them to lend at attractive rates. His advice went unheeded.

The Hungarian-American was an early supporter of the 2008 election campaign of Barack Obama, who will seek a second term as president in the November, 2012, election. Soros has long backed liberal causes among which are the Open Society Institute, the foreign policy think tank Council on Foreign Relations, and Human Rights Watch.
Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 05:33 PM

"You're condemning Soros solely on the basis that he is wealthy"

You keep repeating this even though I keep repeating that i am not condemning him.

Thats fine - ok - but don't delude yourself that you have responded to my point. You are engaged in a parallel debate that has nothing to do with me.

You'll find my view in the posts I've made.

If you want to respond to it, try to understand it first and if you have criticisms, try to make them of my view rather than of your inferences.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 05:48 PM

Don

recapitalizing the banks is not and never was the solution.

M0, M1, M2 etc


.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 06:04 PM

.

Another useful article from Monbiot.

Money ...

.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 06:17 PM

George Soros is a side show that has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion...

He is the right wing's boogie man that they parade out every time they want to change the conversation yet again...

Ignore their tactics... We've seen them all before...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 06:30 PM

Okay, Lox, you've got me buffaloed. I've looked through both our recent posts on this thread. Songwronger comes on with totally libelous material about George Soros. You jump his case. I do likewise, and after a bit of research, blow SW's slanders out of the water. Then YOU get on MY case for defending George Soros.

And you say that I don't get it. You're right. I DON'T get it.

Please explain.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 06:34 PM

The Wall Street protesters are a sideshow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: bobad
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 06:48 PM

The governor of the Bank of Canada doesn't think they are a sideshow - he says that they are 'entirely constructive'

Globe & Mail article


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 07:43 PM

The violence shown against them by the government shows that they are no side show.

The very nature of the OWS message is right at the heart of current politics.

Thats not a sideshow.


Don - I don't have a problem with you either.

Soros point of view would be of no significance to you and me if he wasn't a billionaire.

He wouldn't be any more of a useful ally than you or anyone else on here if he were not a billionaire.

So he is only useful to this conversation insofar as he has power and influence way way above and beyond the power and influence of the average citizen.

The position of OWS is that no private individual should have greater or lesser political power than any other whether they are a billionaire or homeless.

Rallying behind the billionaire to unseat the corporatocracy is therefore a contradiction.

If he wants to come and rally down on the street, let him come and be welcome - but using his financial clout to affect a favourable political outcome is doing exactly the thing that OWS is against.

If he then listens to the demands, and cleans up the act of the many business interests he has, and ensures all his employees are paid a fair wage, and that they receive proper health care, and if he then agrees to pay himself a wage that is comparable to that of his employees, (rather than 'selflessly' only paying himself billions until his death - at which point he will gladly sacrifice his wealth) then he can claim to be with us.

But you know what, I don't see that happening any time soon - I don't think he'd want to let go of his privilege.

He is the beneficiary of a corrupt system and he continues to be complicit in it even though it is plain that for every billionaire made, a million people fall into slavery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 07:47 PM

"Don - I don't have a problem with you either."

To clarify - my posts do not attack Soros character - or you - they explain your misconception about what a struggle for democracy both seeks and entails.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 07:55 PM

Yo, Don and Lox...

Chill... Ya'll are each on the correct side of the truth... Leave it alone...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 08:27 PM

Sideshow?

Then why this?

violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 08:28 PM

Fair enough, Lox and Bobert. But let me be clear here. I have no misconceptions about what a struggle for democracy both seeks and entails.

Soros has stated that he understands, agrees with, and approves of OWS. As far as I know (and contrary to claims of hysterical Right-Wingers), Soros has not tried to lead or fund OWS, and other than verbal support, he's staying clear. Wisely, knowing that to do otherwise would only give ammunition to the Right and lower OWS to the level of the Tea Party.

He HAS, on the other hand, leaned on his fellow Fat Cats to follow his example of philanthropic giving--in the manner of Carnegie, and more recently, Gates, Turner, and a few others.

Sure, he's one of the 1%, but I have a hard time characterizing him as "The Enemy."

As long as he just stays out of the way.

Okay?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 08:31 PM

Amd tp reiterate, my mentioning Soros at all was only in response to Songwronger's vicious slander of him.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 08:33 PM

Reality is that Soros could have used his vast wealth to buy elections like the Koch brothers did... He didn't... Ain't his bag... Ain't what or who he is...

Yeah, he's part of the 1% but has put himself out as the rebel within the 1% for suggesting that the 1% be taxed at the levels of his secretary... Horrors!!!

Now back to OWS... Seems that some local governments want to bust some balls...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 08:40 PM

Thanks for the link, Lox... I am afraid that this is going to get repeated... I hate it... Bad image... With all the tear gas and all it leave the impression that OWS is in riot mode when they are absolutely not... What we are seeing is Boss Hog, like Mubarak's pigs riding thru non-violent people, beating them to create another scene for their right wing supporters...

Watch for more mid-night raids becasue the smoke makes it look like there is resistance...

I hope I am wrong...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 09:55 PM

Okay, I've been lagging on responding to things here.

Vicious slander of Soros? No, I think he's a saint. Saint George of the rose petaled flatulence. He stole 1.1 billion from British retirement plans and then donated 100 million to charities. What a guy. How generous of him to fork over, like, NINE PERCENT of the loot in order to show us what a good guy he is. I wonder how the Brits he killed by driving them into poverty would feel about his philanthropy? They should THANK him for donating 9% of what he stole from them. They were going to die anyway and someone would get the money, so HE took it. The excuse worked for him as a teenaged Nazi collaborator, so why change an excuse that works? Right now he's attempting to destroy the eurodollar. Well, SOMEONE'S going to do it, so why not him? Sniff the scent of roses in his passing and be THANKFUL.

Ted Turner and Bill Gates. Yes, we'll just strike them off the 1% list. Gates and his buddies are doing such charitable work in Africa. They love those little black babies so much.

Someone back there questioned my figures on the Bush/Obama bailout/stimulus scams. Here's an article from a couple of years ago:

We were told that the first bailout under Bush administration officials would cost roughly 800 billion. Then, Obama pushed another stimulus package as soon as he took office, costing another trillion or so.

Thus, according to the estimates of Obama and his 'economic advisers,' the total cost to taxpayers would be roughly 1.8 trillion for the 2 bailouts.

They lied. The actual cost so far is over 4 trillion, and that's just for starters.

Lo and behold, the government's own Inspector-General that oversees spending reported yesterday that the cost to the taxpayers for these bailouts will reach 24 trillion dollars and counting!


http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-columbia/obama-s-gov-t-bailouts-reach-24-trillion-and-counting

And the 75 trillion dollar bailout of Bank of America's derivatives debt. They're going to shift that debt to the FDIC (which insures losses). One deal and each American will assume an additional tax liability of, hold on, let me do the math... 330 million Americans, 75 trillion dollars divided by 330 million... Aw shit, I'll have to get another job.

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7netsahOlCkAxJlXNyoA?p=bank%20of%20america%20fdic%2075%20trillion&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-70


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 01:40 AM

SW's propensities have already been exposed, so I won't bother to take it any further.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 08:32 AM

Just keep in mind that Occupy Wall Street is not about Good Guys versus Bad Guys, it is not about George Soros versus the Koch brothers, it is not even about Left versus Right, and it is certainly not about Democrats versus Republicans. It is instead about how the increasingly unequal distribution of economic wealth and power have corrupted our political system, have undermined our democracy, and have threatened our republic.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 09:05 AM

Hear, hear, Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM

Yup, Steve, that's it in a nutshell..

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 11:40 AM

The unequal distribution of wealth and power are part and parcel of the Capitalist economic and social system......if you fix it, you kill it.

We in the West are sinking rapidly while living standards in,the East will rise, till they become unsustainable....Its already happening in China where the government are faced with turning their population into consumers as Western markets fail.
They will see that using the Capitalist system can be a double edged weapon.

WE are fucked pure and simple, even those with a little money in the bank or a retirement pension, are being robbed every day by the system as inflation rises.
We need to stop thinking in terms of who is better off than the next guy, construct a society where the important issues like health,and education are properly funded as public services and develope a sense of responsibility for how we conduct ourselves

Non of us are owed a living by anyone in this world and the sooner we start to realise that the better.
Capitalism is above all, about scamming as much as possible for ourselves and as someone above said, giving back a few crumbs to make us look decent.....we will never get a new mindset till we ditch it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 12:09 PM

Well well well ...

Who says these protests are ineffective?

Two nights ago the mayor of oakland was trying to force protesters off the streets with plastic bullets.

Today she has made a total U-Turn, and says she is on the protesters side ...

The largest unified political ,ovement in the history of the world continues to gather momentum!

Oakland U-Turn

Lets face it - she's trying to save her skin.


You gotta love social media folks!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 12:24 PM

The City of Oakland may be a bit worried they'll lose another lawsuit because their cops got a little outta hand. Same sort of crap cost them two million in 2003. Of course now the Mayor and the Chief of Police want to talk because they are both part of the 99%. Makes a guy feel warm and fuzzy all over.

Thanks for the link, Lox.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 12:27 PM

Bravo!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 12:42 PM

Sorry, Ake, but the kind of revolution you want is the kind that John Lennon was referring to when he wrote "Count me out"...

Capitalism worked fine for decades... Might of fact it worked well right up until Ronald Reagan was elected and Reagan was duped by his corrupt advisers to use the government to tilt the playing field toward "management"... Up until then government had seen it role as an arbitrator...

We need to do a couple things here... We need to "repair" the damage that the government/industrialist have done and we need to get back to a balance between labor and management... In the short term that is going to mean that the government is going to *look* as if it is favoring labor because of the repairs but with OWS the American people will accept that... The danger is going to far...

BTW, OWS needs to also start doing a better job across the board in talking with the police... I have been trying to make as much eye contact as possible with the cops and have gone out of my way to engage them in light conversation... I know that lots of other OWS folks have, as well, but I'd like to see more of it...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 12:52 PM

I have worked with police officers in a few capacities, and they are just people like the rest of us. For the most part, good people.

I think too many get put in positions for which they are not trained, get given ill-defined assignments, react as people and not cops, then everyone wonders wtf happened.

In '67 I was talking with a National Guardsman at People's Park. Nice guy. My age, and because we'd had a shared experience in terms of the army--both reserve--we were able to communicate. We were on opposite sides of a tornado fence and some razor wire. Before I parted I suggested he put his rifle on safe. He thanked me saying, I don't want to shoot anyone. I said I knew that, take care, and moved on.

These people ain't our enemies and we shouldn't perceive them as such. As Churchill said, jaw jaw is better than war war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 01:11 PM

When people get scared, things can fall apart in a moment. That happens to cops and national guardsmen too, just like it happens to the rest of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 01:41 PM

Bingo, LH, bingo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 02:03 PM

And sometimes the cops are assholes - like the one who, when a group of peacful protesters ran to help a man who was lying on the ground with a fractured skull where a tear gas canister was fired into his face at close range, lobbed a flash grenade into their midst deliberately.

Sometimes its poor training - sometimes its contempt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 02:46 PM

That's what I am talking about, Lox... If we make more of an effort to humanize the cops then maybe more of them will get it... Fighting cops is bad imagery for OWS... This is a lesson I learned in the 60s.. Everyone has a job to do here... Let's do it with a little humanity... I mean, the OWS has an opportunity here to lead by example... We know that Boss Hog is going to order his cops to be assholes but if we make those human connections (like brucie did back in '76) then it's going to make it real hard for the cops to think they have some right to bust heads...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 03:19 PM

Ayn Rand and Karl Marx (now, THERE'S a pair!!) will never forgive me for saying this, but historically,
REGULATED Capitalism
works just fine!

Ayn Rand wanted Capitalism with no regulation whatsoever. Karl Marx wanted no Capitalism at all, but plenty of regulation.

Like parentheses, between FDR and the New Deal = (, and Ronald Reagan = ), regulated Capitalism produced a fairly high level of general prosperity in this country. Take a good look at what FDR did and what Reagan UNdid, and things get pretty clear.

History.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 04:09 PM

Funny, Don...

Maybe someone needs to write a play about a conversation between Marx and Rand... I'd go see it...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 04:20 PM

How can you contrast Western society in the 50's, with the make up of society today?

If "regulated" Capitalism had any chance of providing for the populace in the 21st century.....we would have "regulated" Capitalism.

I suppose the string pullers recognised long ago that this system is unsustainable and decided to "go for broke"

Making their fortunes, and convincing the rest of us that the crumbs would never stop falling.

Isn't it about time that we realised that the Emperor has no clothes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 04:21 PM

In simple terms, Ake, what do you suggest?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 04:33 PM

Ake:    "How can you contrast Western society in the 50's, with the make up of society today?"

How can you NOT?

A play about a conversation between Karl Marx and Ayn Rand? Now, THAT would be a real rip-snorter!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 05:06 PM

Face it... Pure capitalism really doesn't exist any more than pure socialism or communism... What most societies have are hybrid systems with a mix of various pure economic models... I think that is probably the most efficient and fair as long as corruption doesn't get the best of the hybrid, as has happened in a lot of western democracies...

Reaganomics isn't just America's problem... It seems that it has taken it's toll on the UK (Thatchernomics) and other European countries, as well... Same beast...

That's why OWS is global...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 05:48 PM

Marx wasn't a politician.

He was an economist and and observer.

All he did was predict that one day the divide between the working classes and the ruling classes and capitalists, would get so big that the working classes would refuse to play ball any more until they got proper recompense for their efforts.

In a world with poor communication and plenty of places to go to find willing slaves, that wasn't happening.

Capitalists could just blackmail their workers into accepting poor conditions with the threat of just taking the work elsewhere.

However, in a world where the working classes have access to global social media, it might be that his predictions are beginning to come true in front of our eyes.

Regardless of your political world view, it would be foolish of anybody to underestimate the significance of social media in the political landscape.

It is not just a fad that will be gone in a few months, it is a permanent fixture in history and the changes it has made to global society are also permanent.

Its biggest best and most important legacy is the repoliticazation of society.

No longer do people feel voiceless and insignificant. We all feel like we have an audience of millions.

The internet and social media are a petri dish where ideas grow and multiply at incredible speeds and are replaced at similar speeds.

As a consequence, society is maturing very quickly, and communicating and learning in an unprecedented way.

The world is becoming democratized whether it likes it or not.

And we are only just seeing the first tiny glimmer of its potential.

How it will pan out is of course a mystery - in London we saw riots and looting - in egypt the overthrow of a puppet.

It could result in nationalist isolationism, or global fraternity. It could result in WWIII, or it could result in a new age of understanding.

But whatever happens won't be at the behest of the mainstream media or corporate propaganda - at leat not to the same extent as when they controlled 3 hours of our in home activity and information on TV every night.

Its great - its beautiful - Long live democracy!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 07:24 PM

Lox raises a salient point: TV is NOT your friend.

Yes, many will come back with "I only watch nature shows" or "I only watch science shows" etc. However, those three people in America notwithstanding, TV is a form of socialization that sets unrealistic expectations in a world with too many of them already. TV is the most important tool in the arsenal of those who wish to control other's thoughts.

"The medium is the message" was stated by Marshall McLuhan (another Canuck) back in the 1960s (I think). The following link renders a good article on McLuhan's foresight and prognostication regarding media in its varied forms.

http://individual.utoronto.ca/markfederman/article_mediumisthemessage.htm

Worth a read, imo. YMMV.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 01:20 AM

Right on, 999. That's why I basically gave up on TV about 20 years ago, and have turned instead to the Internet...a medium where I am not a passive receiving sponge sitting helplessly on the coach, but an active participant who is taking part in the dialogue. TV isn't a dialogue. It's a corporate monologue aimed at billions of hapless "consumers", and it has been used primarily to manufacture conformity and unconscious consent to marketing schemes and political propaganda. TV is virtually dead as far as I'm concerned. I neither want it nor need it when I have access to the Internet and printed material (books, magazines, and newspapers).


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,cujimmy
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 04:50 AM

So everyone is sharing in the Austerity - check this out

http://news.google.co.uk/news/story?pz=1&cf=all&ned=uk&hl=en&topic=h&ncl=dRgGo-uj-il-M2M4ecqcxdN_WwhNM


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