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BS: Wall Street Protesters...

Related threads:
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Bobert 17 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM
ollaimh 17 Oct 11 - 10:05 PM
Songwronger 17 Oct 11 - 10:24 PM
GUEST,999 17 Oct 11 - 10:39 PM
Little Hawk 17 Oct 11 - 11:28 PM
Don Firth 18 Oct 11 - 12:54 AM
Lox 18 Oct 11 - 04:52 AM
Bobert 18 Oct 11 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,999 18 Oct 11 - 11:07 AM
dick greenhaus 18 Oct 11 - 11:49 AM
Lox 18 Oct 11 - 11:50 AM
Lox 18 Oct 11 - 11:56 AM
dick greenhaus 18 Oct 11 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,999 18 Oct 11 - 01:30 PM
Little Hawk 18 Oct 11 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,999 18 Oct 11 - 02:48 PM
akenaton 18 Oct 11 - 03:00 PM
Don Firth 18 Oct 11 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,999 18 Oct 11 - 03:55 PM
Little Hawk 18 Oct 11 - 03:55 PM
dick greenhaus 18 Oct 11 - 04:49 PM
Bobert 18 Oct 11 - 05:21 PM
akenaton 18 Oct 11 - 06:11 PM
Lox 18 Oct 11 - 06:44 PM
Little Hawk 18 Oct 11 - 07:16 PM
Lox 18 Oct 11 - 07:24 PM
Don Firth 18 Oct 11 - 10:04 PM
GUEST,999 18 Oct 11 - 10:50 PM
Songwronger 18 Oct 11 - 11:30 PM
Lox 19 Oct 11 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Oct 11 - 07:38 AM
bobad 19 Oct 11 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Oct 11 - 09:08 AM
Bobert 19 Oct 11 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Oct 11 - 09:25 AM
Greg F. 19 Oct 11 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Oct 11 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,999 19 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Oct 11 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,999 19 Oct 11 - 11:33 AM
akenaton 19 Oct 11 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Oct 11 - 11:56 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Oct 11 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Oct 11 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,999 19 Oct 11 - 02:01 PM
Little Hawk 19 Oct 11 - 04:15 PM
Little Hawk 19 Oct 11 - 04:23 PM
GUEST,999 19 Oct 11 - 04:38 PM
Little Hawk 19 Oct 11 - 04:43 PM
Bobert 19 Oct 11 - 05:11 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM

No, dick... You have it wrong... "Anger and enthusiasm" is what brought about the Civil Rights Act...l

Not exactly a football game...

Lyndon Johnson wasn't going to get the Civil Rights Act passed without the hundreds of thousands of people who did what they could do to create an environment for that to happen...

That's the way it was...

If you don't get people thinking about stuff then when you try to make a change it will be rejected...

OWS is doing ***exactly*** what the civil rights people were doing in the early 60s....

Give them (us) a break... This ain't a friggin' pep rally...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: ollaimh
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 10:05 PM

they have regulated capitalism in sweden and most of scandanavia. it works fine. they are affected by the ills in the rest of the world but they are not as affected as some countries. in canada we had a moderately regulated capitalism, under the liberals. surprise, we had no bank failures and ran budget surplusses for eleven years straight.

we had growth we just din't let the ponzi scheme capitalist steal all the money!

they were very creative about it but the fact reamins that between 1990 and 2008 they manufactured securities out of thin air that didn't exist before that time and those securities quardrupled the securities traded in new york. you have admire their ambition but the same way you admire the ambition of people like napoleon or hitler.

real growth depends on real production. the growth of the nineties to the crash was paper growth, taking advantage of americas premier position in the worlds capital markets but exporting millions of real jobs and allowing the collapse of infrastructure. now you have agutted economy that is either going to take years to recover --if at all--or will need massive infrastructure and educastional investment. the latter seems oposed by most american politicians, however it is likely the only road to real growth.

so go protestors go--and get a uniting theme,

like

BRING THE JOBS HOME


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 10:24 PM

Yes, exactly, a uniting theme. In the U.S. it would be good to pursue two points. 1) Tax Wall Street's financial transactions. They're currently not taxed. Levy a 1% tax on financial transactions. 2) Bring back the Glass-Steagall Act, which separated commercial and investment banking. The derivatives problem exploded when this act was repealed in 1996.

The OWS protests have no focus. No goals. And because of that they are easily manipulated.

Look up the names Vlad Teichberg and Peter Gelderloos. They're "anarchists" who specialize in guiding demonstrations. They're currently up to their eyes in the OWS stuff. Anarchy. When something positive could be achieved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 10:39 PM

Who are the Democrats running for president in the next election, anyone know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 11:28 PM

We'll have to find someone who "knows everything" and get him to answer that one.

Any volunteers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 12:54 AM

Interesting, Songwronger. I did a little Googling on the names you mentioned. Vlad Teichberg and Peter Gelderloos. Yes, they are avowed "anarchists," but the only really negative information I've been able to find about them comes from

Steady, now…..

Fox News Service!

Vlad Teichberg's main concern seem to be that the news media in general was simply ignoring the demonstrations, and he set about filming them and trying to publicizing them. Somehow, I see nothing wrong with that. Quite the contrary.

And some of the ideas of Peter Gelderloos, who is opposed to non-violent resistance (and has written a book on the subject), seems to have some pretty draconian ideas, but he won't find many in the OWS movement who will agree with him on that point. Not much influence there!

Leading the Occupy Wall Street protest? Financing them?

Again, these allegations come from Fox News!

Quelle surprise!!

The OWS protests have focus and their goals are quite specific, as a matter of fact. And these folks are not easily manipulated. Quite the contrary, in fact.

If Teichberg and Gelderloos are involved with OWS in any way, other than Teichberg's trying to call attention to it and Gelderloos's apparent contention that the demonstraters should indulge in violence, it appears that they are running like hell, trying to get in front of the movement, so they can look like they're leading it. As in:

"I have to see which way the people are going so I can get out in front and be their leader!"

You really need to get out more, Songwronger. Go to one of the protest gatherings and talk to some of the people involved. Find out for yourself rather that taking the word of Fox News or a bunch of Right Wing blogs.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 04:52 AM

"The OWS protests have no focus. No goals. And because of that they are easily manipulated."

Not true.

This is a mainstream media lie.

If you look up the general assembly or the "occupy" websites, you will see that there is a very clear and concise set of demands that people are happy to rally behind.

Folks - these events have been happening all over the world - not just in lots of American cities, but all over the UK and europe, South America and even as far away as china.

As for the football analogy - dick has misapplied boberts analogy, as boberts analogy is based on the idea of the players of one team being succesful against the players of the other. Dick is talking about spectators.

The OWS demonstrators are not spectators. they, and we are all players.

Working people are saying - if you want us to participate, you must renegotiate the deal.

It is very clear and simple.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 09:27 AM

What Don and Lox have said... Helen Keller can clearly see the goals of this movement from her grave...

What OWS is avoiding, and for very good reason, is becoming policy wonks and writing 200 pages policy "white papers" dealing with every last detail... That's not what this is about and would be counter-productive because then the right wing would employ an army of stat-men and bloggers to redefine the movement by starting hundreds of mini-wars over minute details... This is what they do when they know they are on the wrong side of issues... This is exactly what Teribus did here at Mudcat during the mad-dash-to-Iraq days...

We're not going to be suckered into that trap... Tax the rich works just fine... End the wars works fine... Re-regulate Wall Street works fine...

And, yes, this is BIG "corporate" MEDIA mischief... We've seen it before... There is no "liberal media"... That is just right wing mythology that is based on them wanting 100% control of the conversation... Just like now, they are peddling propaganda with this "OWS doesn't have goals" BS... That is propaganda... USDA Choice propaganda...

Hey, we've earned the right to have the conversation that we want to have and we're not going to be "fooled again"...

Our conversation!!! Our terms!!! Our time!!!

Anyone who doesn't like it is either part of the 1% or brainwashed by the 1%...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:07 AM

Anyone who's ever heard "Chimes of Freedom" and understood it will know why the OWS people have no intention of 'choosing from the issues' they bring to the table. The manifesto makes that clear I think. They do not want to buy into typecasting, pigeonholes or a specific battlefield. And why should they?

I notice an advertisement that pops up on Mudcat about 'the nine best stocks to invest in'. The very pervasiveness of that stuff indicates a sophistication that far outranks anything the OWS movement has--but that said, fu#k 'em. There is NO advantage to be gained by saying take away the sales tax and we'll all go home like good little girls and boys. We know where the media is at and it's clear who they support: the media support their owners, NOT their customers. Those 'with' will never support those 'without' and its foolish to think they ever will.

The Bank of America is up to its a$$ in lawsuits and it's scared. I don't think Mr Moynihan is sleeping the sleep of the just.

###############################################

"The evening arrived; the boys took their places. The master, in his cook's uniform, stationed himself at the copper; his pauper assistants ranged themselves behind him; the gruel was served out; and a long grace was said over the short commons. The gruel disappeared; the boys whispered each other, and winked at Oliver; while his next neighbours nudged him. Child as he was, he was desperate with hunger, and reckless with misery. He rose from the table; and advancing to the master, basin and spoon in hand, said: somewhat alarmed at his own temerity:

"Please, sir, I want some more."

The master was a fat, healthy man; but he turned very pale. He gazed in stupefied astonishment on the small rebel for some seconds, and then clung for support to the copper. The assistants were paralysed with wonder; the boys with fear.

"What!" said the master at length, in a faint voice.

"Please, sir," replied Oliver, "I want some more."

The master aimed a blow at Oliver's head with the ladle; pinioned him in his arms; and shrieked aloud for the beadle.

The board were sitting in solemn conclave, when Mr. Bumble rushed into the room in great excitement, and addressing the gentleman in the high chair, said,

"Mr. Limbkins, I beg your pardon, sir! Oliver Twist has asked for more!"

There was a general start. Horror was depicted on every countenance.

"For (r)more!¯" said Mr. Limbkins. "Compose yourself, Bumble, and answer me distinctly. Do I understand that he asked for more, after he had eaten the supper allotted by the dietary?"

"He did, sir," replied Bumble.

"That boy will be hung," said the gentleman in the white waistcoat. "I know that boy will be hung."

Nobody controverted the prophetic gentleman's opinion. An animated discussion took place. Oliver was ordered into instant confinement; and a bill was next morning pasted on the outside of the gate, offering a reward of five pounds to anybody who would take Oliver Twist off the hands of the parish. In other words, five pounds and Oliver Twist were offered to any man or woman who wanted an apprentice to any trade, business, or calling.

"I never was more convinced of anything in my life," said the gentleman in the white waistcoat, as he knocked at the gate and read the bill next morning: "I never was more convinced of anything in my life, than I am that that boy will come to be hung."

As I purpose to show in the sequel whether the white-waistcoated gentleman was right or not, I should perhaps mar the interest of this narrative (supposing it to possess any at all), if I ventured to hint just yet, whether the life of Oliver Twist had this violent termination or no."

Dickens (with a Twist)

##############################################

Forty-six percent of Congress are millionaires. Sixty million people live below the poverty line, whatever THAT is. Washington itself seems to dare not mention issues of substance lest it arouse the rabble. Well, the rabble is aroused, it's angry and it's tougher than anyone thought.

Decision theory, general equilibrium theory and mechanism design theory all indicate that it is stupid to play the game. But it's smart to understand the game being played by Wall Street and the folks it represents.

The minute OWS says, THIS is what we want, THIS is our goal, that is the minute the movement can be quantified and dealt with. There there be dragons. It is NOT in OWS's best interests to answer the question because that then defines the movement and provides Wall Street--the term I'm using for Congress, stock markets and multinationals--with information about where best to stick the knife.

No point doing their thinking for them. They know already. It's Wall Street that has left unanswered questions, not OWS. It continues to go about its business, and we will continue to go about ours, thank you very much.

IMO


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:49 AM

Anyone who believes that any financial institution will change its policies simply because there a large and loud protest is a prime candidate for buying waterfront property in Arizona. As I recall, Oliver Twist, within the system of the establishment he was living in, didn't get any more.
   OWS could be a mighty force by simply threatening to campaign against any candidate who refuse to vote for tax increases for the wealthy. Or who voted for cuts to Social Security....or, pick an issue.
Less dramatic than banjos and bongos, but much more effective.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:50 AM

Well Peace,

I think that may be your best written and best illustrated mudcat post to date.

And I agree with every word.

And it should of course be remembered that Dickens wasn't writing some mere piece of fantasy, but referring explicitly to the reality of life for those on the bottom in society when they are not protected from the ravages of the richest in society.

If there were no social welfare in the UK, that is how things would still be today.

Time for society to evolve further!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:56 AM

Oliver twist didn't get any more, but thanks to the writing of Dickens, and the organization of the labour movement, there are no more workhouses.

That change wouldn't have happened if people hadn't spoken out.

In fact, that change ha[pened precisely because people organized and spoke out.

So Dick, you are simply wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 12:57 PM

Just what sort of change do you envision?
I am an enthusiastic supporter of people organizing and speaking out; it's just that I think it's useful to know to whom you're doing the speaking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 01:30 PM

Thank you, Lox.

The following is a snip from a Reuters article on the web:

'Like many other protest movements this year, they [OWS, UK] appear almost completely leaderless, initially co-ordinated via social media platforms, inspired by events overseas and now making decisions through long, consensus-based meetings on issues from sanitation to their wider agenda.

With their generally peaceful approach and hope of finding an ill-defined "better way" to manage international capital and politics, the largely educated crowd appeared in stark contrast to the tough, angry urban youth who brought chaos and looting to London and other cities in August riots.'

Dick, many of the people there are educated. Some have high school, some college and others bachelor's, master's and even doctorate degrees from good learning institutions. They would get the 'joke' (read put down) about beachfront in Arizona. Thing is, that seems to be what Wall Street's been selling for decades, and they have at last been found out by John and Jane Doe.

The law suits filed against the Bank of America may cast more light on the whole sordid situation, but folks are wise enough to see that the court decisions, appeals and further decisions will take years, about the same number of years it took to bring the present 'crisis' to prominence--a fifteen trillion dollar crisis started when Reagan came to power and a crisis deepened by every chief executive since then.

The biggest enemy Wall Street has is common people and their new-found ability to speak WITH each other. Don't need the help of the power elite to interpret what folks are saying so they can let us all know what we think. As individuals we already know what we think. As a non-cohesive group (the rabble) we have a freedom of movement unlike never before.

The only way to "beat the house" (or House in this case) is not to play the game. The only way to win the war is not show up for any battles. We are the backdrop against which the media, Congress, Wall Street and multinationals will be shown to continue their games, and the longer that happens more people will see and understand and the more people will see and understand.

Some martial arts, for example, require that the opposition give the first strike, and in real life I have seen attackers fall over themselves trying to strike something that just wasn't there any longer. We are at our best being 'there' without being there. Hard to grasp, and THAT'S the point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 02:16 PM

999, I think you have grasped the vital point that has been eluding most people for a very long time. Well said all the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 02:48 PM

I learned part of that from you, LH. Takes a while, but some stuff actually sunk in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:00 PM

Yes I must say Bruce, that modern communications technology designed to turn a profit for Capitalism, has proved to be something of a "Trojan Horse".....rapid communications and the transfer of information is now a valuable weapon against the system.

The problem is and always was, how do we convince those with something to lose .....and that is a huge majority in our respective countries.....to ditch it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:06 PM

If Oliver, who walked up to the master with his bowl in his hands and said, "Please, sir, I want some more," in a deep, resonant voice coming from a lad with the size and general musculature of Conan the Barbarian……..methinks they would have given him more!

OWS wants are straightforward and obvious. Make the wealthy, super-wealthy, and corporations pay their fair share of taxes, put a stop to these endless and pointless wars, and restore the regulations on Wall Street, the banks, and other financial institutions—plus, make the Wall Street Ponzi schemes illegal.

Clear. To the point. Non-negotiable.

And where are all those Conan the Barbarian-size muscles? That should be obvious as well:

The vast majority of the Wall Street Occupiers are voters. And that, obviously, includes the power to withhold one's vote from particular politicians as well.

Seems pretty simple to me. Maybe even simple enough for our elected officials to grasp.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:55 PM

Ake, I am on my way out the door. I'll be back in an hour and try my best to explain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:55 PM

Possibly. How do you shake the politicians (meaning the candidates) loose from the pursestrings that control most of them? Until you have shaken a majority of them loose from that form of influence, your vote means little or nothing...given that the choices you've been given to vote FOR have usually all been bought out already. If you have no candidate available who WILL honestly represent you once elected...who do you vote for?

And how can your vote then effect real change?

The candidate in the last election whom I felt DID represent honesty and real change was Dennis Kucinich. He was not the candidate which the Democratic Party selected to run, needless to say. People like him do not GET selected by either of the major parties...nor do they get sufficient friendly coverage from the corporate media to have a hope in hell of BEING selected.

You know...the mass media can get someone elected nowadays. They do it by giving that person the right kind of media coverage. It can be orchestrated very effectively, and it is, in my opinion.

Since the mass media are owned by a few very rich people, don't you think those people will support a candidate who looks after their interests? In fact...they'll support only a candidate who looks after their interests...make that 2 candidates who will look after their interests....and they'll back whoever's outer style seems most marketable at the time. In 2008 that was Mr Obama. It was "time to dump the Republicans", and that was done very handily. But so what? In 2012 it may be somebody else, not Mr Obama, but it's just a big phony game as far as I'm concerned...because if Candidate A and Candidate B both end up serving the elite once elected, what the hell difference does it make which one the non-elite (we the 99 %) vote for?

Yeah, there may be a "lesser of two evils"... But I think we deserve a lot better than that. We need genuine transformation of this society, not more dissimulation and new "faces" pasted over the old system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 04:49 PM

I was around (and active) back in 1947 where a massive protest wound up producing some good songs, the Progressive Party and not much else.
Yes Don, the muscles come from voters. But a third party has historically been a disaster, serving only the party that the protesters like least, whether it be headed by a Ralph Nader or a Ross Perot. What does work is having a voting bloc effectively co-opt one of the existing parties, as The Tea Partisans have done with the GOP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 05:21 PM

The best way to deal with a bully is to stand up to him... That is what OWS is doing and every day that goes by there are more folks joining in to stand up to the bully... What all this does is counters some of the right winged propagandists and presents a different narrative... The right wing has controlled the conversation for 30 years... That's what OWS is all about...

Changing the conversation!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 06:11 PM

One minute ago, I saw M moore on BBC tv, when asked what he wanted from OWS, he replied that he wanted a completely new system...."the end of Capitalism.....an evil system"

Even if that is what the movement wants.....and its what I want! We still have to convince millions of ordinary people who are not politically motivated, to give up the crumbs they have gleaned from under the rich mans table; and the madness of "liberal" ideology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 06:44 PM

Well the good news is that the bug is so infectious that it is even causing traditional mudcat enemies to agree with each other.

Dick, this has nothing to do with party politics, whether you mean traditional parties or some 'new' alternative.

This is all about "democracy" ie - government by the people.

And most people don't trust party politics.

Most people don't trust politicians.

And most people definitely don't trust the 1% of capitalists who own the politicians.

Whats different?

The people are making0 their own media and propaganda - we aren't as manipulable when social media is taking over from corporate media.

We are able to organize quickly and effectively.

Look at 38 degrees - look at Avaaz ... but most of all, look how fast the riots spread in England earlier this year .... and how easy it was to run rings around the police.

A serious sustained political movement, whether it be a strike or other peaceful non-cooperation would be 1000 times as effective.

The grapevine has gone digital.


We want democracy back, we want to be paid properly and we want basic human rights like proper health care and housing.

We've seen the courage of protesters in Egypt and Syria and we are becoming emboldened and more politicized.

We aren't so easy to pacify and hypnotize as our focus is not on TV, be it "news" or be it shit propaganda masquerading as rubbish ads and sit coms.

Gil scott heron was right - the revolution will not be televised ...

... it might be on facebook and twitter though!

(and a little corner might even be on mudcat)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 07:16 PM

I agree, it has nothing to do with traditional party politics. Party politics is what has people presently hypnotized and enslaved to the status quo...and pitted against one another! Forming a 3rd party in the USA would be an exercise in futility. We don't need more political parties, and we don't need the existing political parties either. They are part of the problem. We need independent, nonpartisan social action on a massive scale....unconnected to party politics of any kind whatsoever.

That's what overturned the Mubarak government in Egypt...independent social action by millions of people. That's the only way. Political parties will not shake down or significantly alter the present power structure, because they are an essential part of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 07:24 PM

Although it should also be noted that in Egypt the protests had been going on unreported for a couple of years and that trade unions played a very large part in keeping things coordinated.

Here trade unions are run by the pigs who took over the farm house and their leaders have grown fat. This is because they need to keep the goverment and big business happy or risk being closed down and having their funding interrupted. And there are some good salaries in Unions here ...

... so sisters are having to do it for themselves as it were ...

... but thats liberation for you!



Also, it is unpleasant to report that even in the last few days, protesters in egypt were crushed by the army att night in Tahrir Square, where the lights were turned off, the tanks were driven in and people were shot ...

... we're all fighting the same enemy ... people in Bahrain, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, USA, UK, HK, ... and wall street is the symbol of their power.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 10:04 PM

Tess Vigeland is the host of "Marketplace Money" on American Public Media. I heard this on my local NPR affiliate this afternoon. Josh Brown states, briefly and to the point, just what the OWS protesters are all about.

If I were to merely post a link to the audio or printed versions of the interview, it would be gone within a few days, so I'm posting the printed version here for your enlightenment and edification.
Tess Vigeland: Inequity is arguably the main rallying cry of the Occupy movement. And on that score, the primary bogeymen are the nation's bankers, brokers and traders -- the so-called "one-percenters" who control about a third of the country's wealth.

Commentator Josh Brown is one of those one-percenters. He's an investment adviser at Fusion Analytics in Manhattan. If you think you know what his take on all this is going to be, here's his open letter to the banks that don't seem to get why people are mad.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Josh Brown: In 2008, the American people were told that if they didn't bail out the banks, there way of life would never be the same. In no uncertain terms, our leaders told us anything short of saving these insolvent banks would result in a depression to the American public. We had to do it!

At our darkest hour we gave these banks every single thing they asked for. We allowed investment banks to borrow money at zero percent interest rate, directly from the Fed. We gave them taxpayer cash right onto their balance sheets. We allowed them to suspend account rules and pretend that the toxic sludge they were carrying was worth 100 cents on the dollar. Anything to stave off insolvency. We left thousands of executives in place at these firms. Nobody went to jail, not a single perp walk. I can't even think of a single example of someone being fired. People resigned with full benefits and pensions, as though it were a job well done.

The American taxpayer kicked in over a trillion dollars to help make all of this happen. But the banks didn't hold up their end of the bargain. The banks didn't seize this opportunity, this second chance to re-enter society as a constructive agent of commerce. Instead, they went back to business as usual. With $20 billion in bonuses paid during 2009. Another $20 billion in bonuses paid in 2010. And they did this with the profits they earned from zero percent interest rates that actually acted as a tax on the rest of the economy.

Instead of coming back and working with this economy to get back on its feet, they hired lobbyists by the dozen to fight tooth and nail against any efforts whatsoever to bring common sense regulation to the financial industry. Instead of coming back and working with the people, they hired an army of robosigners to process millions of foreclosures. In many cases, without even having the proper paperwork to evict the homeowners. Instead, the banks announced layoffs in the tens of thousands, so that executives at the top of the pile could maintain their outrageous levels of compensation.

We bailed out Wall Street to avoid Depression, but three years later, millions of Americans are in a living hell. This is why they're enraged, this why they're assembling, this is why they hate you. Why for the first time in 50 years, the people are coming out in the streets and they're saying, "Enough."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vigeland: Josh Brown. He wrote a scathing blog post along these same lines earlier this week. You can also follow him on Twitter @reformedbroker.
If anyone was confused or in doubt about what it's all about, there it is!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 10:50 PM

Ake, hello.

Was thinking about how far you and I go back and the fact we've been on opposite sides of issues frequently and still never let that interfere with a good friendship. This is no different. Not one of us here need convince anyone else of anything.

The greatest fear rampant in the world today is that expressed by the money people: WHAT do they want?

They are afraid they may lose their positions of wealth, and they will if currency devalues. So, what choice do they have except to find ways to ensure that doesn't happen!

###############################################

Maggie's Farm written by Bob Dylan

I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more
No, I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more
Well, I wake in the morning
Fold my hands and pray for rain
I got a head full of ideas
That are drivin' me insane
It's a shame the way she makes me scrub the floor
I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more

I ain't gonna work for Maggie's brother no more
No, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's brother no more
Well, he hands you a nickel
He hands you a dime
He asks you with a grin
If you're havin' a good time
Then he fines you every time you slam the door
I ain't gonna work for Maggie's brother no more

I ain't gonna work for Maggie's pa no more
No, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's pa no more
Well, he puts his cigar
Out in your face just for kicks
His bedroom window
It is made out of bricks
The National Guard stands around his door
Ah, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's pa no more

I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more
No, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more
Well, she talks to all the servants
About man and God and law
Everybody says
She's the brains behind pa
She's sixty-eight, but she says she's twenty-four
I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more

I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more
No, I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more
Well, I try my best
To be just like I am
But everybody wants you
To be just like them
They sing while you slave and I just get bored
I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more

Copyright © 1965 by Warner Bros. Inc.; renewed 1993 by Special Rider Music

#########################################

Ake, they need us more than we need them. Truthfully, what's the difference between competing with each other for wages set by Wall Street and not competing with each other for the wages they set? We can all get good 'wages' by cooperating with each other and completely ignoring Wall Street. Let those a$$holes come to us with their caps in their damned hands--just for a change. This ain't for us, anyway. We'll be dead before any changes of substance are made to banking systems or ways of doing business. But our kids won't, nor their kids. Gradually, as we speak WITH each other, we shall find consensus. Wrong or right, it will be better than what we have now. Workers let go weeks before they have pensions; houses stolen by banks; cheap watches as parting gifts while the money people get five million dollar handshakes for fu#king up their businesses, and fu#king up our money earned by our labour.

I don't know exactly where this road leads, but I do know where the other one goes to, and it ain't good. Slavery, destitution, extreme poverty.

I have no answers that would convince anyone of anything. But then it's not my responsibility to have answers for questions designed to make people argue with each other. The fact we talk scares them. And for now, that's good enough. Let the money people be scared for a change. Let the arrogant scum walk a few miles in the shoes we've worn all our lives. Then, we may be able to treat as equals. Not before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:30 PM

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0oG7n6RPZ5OxyQASbdXNyoA?p=obama%20silicon%20dinner%20picture&fr2=piv
<


Pics of Obama celebrating with Silicon Valley bigwigs after Mubarak was ousted. Obama thought his CIA had a new method of installing thuggish military regimes without bloodshed, but then came Libya.

OWS was begun by a Marxist magazine and now it's being guided by right-wing anarchists who direct participants to expend their energy in non-productive ways.

And that NPR piece. They under reported the cost of the financial fiasco by TRILLIONS. They're part of the problem, same as the conservative outlets. Keep the public in the dark while pretending to shed light.

OWS makes me think of Howard Beale saying, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!" That's all well and good, but where's the plan? Watching people moan about "the 1%" doesn't accomplish anything.

The cold will soon cut back on the protests, but then the main attraction will come next year, when the economy REALLY tanks. People will go out for their comfortable little protests, and the anarchists will provocateur. I mean, hey, if you want anarchy, you're going to get it. For a while.

Either get a clear cut program FAST, or have one foisted on you by the demonic government you're threatening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 03:39 AM

Songwronger - if enough people refuse to participate, those at the top will have to redraw the social contract.

Call it blackmail if you like, but its no worse than saying "accept my cock up your ass or I'll go and give it to someone in Mexico"

Social global media is allowing more and more people too communiicate worldwide and government attempts to control the net are failing at every step.

You CAN watch BBC in the USA - you CAN get facebook in china ...

... its easy and everyone knows how to do it in places where there are restrictions.


the message will be simple ... "we're not playing till the rules are changed" ...

... big money is only powerful when it can buy people.

When people demand a higher price together, things will change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 07:38 AM

"22% approve of the Occupy movement."

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150164/Americans-Uncertain-Occupy-Wall-Street-Goals.aspx


"The poll sought to contrast support for Occupy Wall Street with another prominent American movement, the Tea Party. In the poll, 22% describe themselves as Tea Party movement supporters, 27% as opponents, and 47% as neither. Gallup has typically found that about equal percentages of Americans are Tea Party supporters or opponents, with the greatest percentage neutral. Thus, the current level of public support for Occupy Wall Street is similar to that for the Tea Party movement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: bobad
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 08:09 AM

Fox News Poll Backfires: 70 Percent Support Occupy Wall Street | Fox News is running a poll on their website asking readers if the 99 Percent movement represents their views on the economy. In a move that likely surprised the network — which has consistently belittled, smeared, distorted, and otherwise dismissed the protests — the vast majority of respondents, many of whom are likely Fox viewers, said they agree with the movement:

http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/10/12/342314/fox-news-poll-backfires-70-percent-support-occupy-wall-street/



The media demands one headline per protest: Whaddya mean there's no clear cut program


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 09:08 AM

Bobert,

Care to comment on these two reports, in light of YOUR comments about FOX Viewers???




"Fox News is running a poll on their website asking readers if the 99 Percent movement represents their views on the economy. In a move that likely surprised the network — which has consistently belittled, smeared, distorted, and otherwise dismissed the protests — the vast majority of respondents, many of whom are likely Fox viewers, said they agree with the movement:




"22% approve of the Occupy movement."

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150164/Americans-Uncertain-Occupy-Wall-Street-Goals.aspx




70% of FOX respondents ( IE, those who choose to reply to FOX polls) support , while Gallup says 22% of non-selected (IE, everyone) support the Occupy protests.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 09:14 AM

First of all any one who thinks that OWS is being directed by the right wing is deep in Coolaid-ville... But that entire line of offense/defence is nothing but a right winged talking point... The right hates OWS because it is exposing their weaknesses, which are many...

So the right wing will continue with pushing their PR propaganda...

And the polls I am hearing do not resemble the one that bb posted... Even the right winged BIG MEDIA NBC had the approval rating of 47%???

That's why polls are so unreliable... They are easily rigged.... Just as elections are rigged...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 09:25 AM

Bobert,

Let me see.

Gallup says 22% of the public in general.
NBC says 47% of the public in general.
FOX says 70% of ITS VIEWERS that responded to the survey support.

AND YOU SAY
" The right hates OWS because it is exposing their weaknesses, which are many..."

AND claim that FOX viewers are right wing.



and YOU criticise the Tea Party????????????????????

THEY are more in support of Occupy than the left-leaning NBC, or the neutral Gallup says that the general public is.

Please send up some of what you are smoking- I need an alternate reality like that!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 10:05 AM

Well, Beardie, with the track record that Faux News (owned, directed & scripted by that paragon of virtue & probity Rupert Murdoch)has established for outright lies, distortions and fantasy, how anyone with pretensions to intelligence would believe them is beyond me.

But you're free to believe what you wish...


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 10:18 AM

Well, gregie boy,

"anyone with pretensions to intelligence would believe them is beyond me."

You mean that the fact that 70% of the respondents SUPPORT the Occupy movements goals indicates how stupid they are??

What does that say about you???


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM

The polls do NOT matter. OWS started without benefit of polls, continued without benefit of polls and will continue without benefit of polls, thank you very much.

Polls are tools used to manipulate public opinion. If, as so many claim, no one KNOWS what OWS wants, how can the pollsters even begin to understand which questions to ask?

#######################################

Poll designed by an architecture student:

Do you like the building structures in the Wall Street area.

YES         72%
NO          23%
DON'T KNOW   5%


Story in the news:

A recent poll conducted by students at Justask University has concluded that 72% of the people who responded like Wall Street. This bodes poorly for Occupy Wall Street protesters.

#########################################

Meanwhile, back on the street . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 11:15 AM

Bruce,

Did you even bother to look at the poll before you commented. they tell you the question- so don't tell us

"If, as so many claim, no one KNOWS what OWS wants, how can the pollsters even begin to understand which questions to ask? "

IF that is so, I would claim that since NO ON knows what OWS wants, then NO ONE can be in support of it.

In fact, the question was asked
"Do you approve or disapprove of the goals of the Occupy Wall Street movement, or don't you know enough to say?"

IF you bothered to look you would have seen that- the result was that 22% OF THOSE ASKED THOUGHT THEY KNEW the goals, and approved of them.

As long as people here throw around that 99% number, I think it resaonable to use numbers- unless you are insisting that ONLY YOU are allowed to do so, and the rest of us have to follow a different set of rules. MY understanding is that that is one thing the OWS movement is AGAINST. Yet some here want it to be used to prevent discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 11:33 AM

The logic doesn't work, BB. It went out the window when banks were bailed out with tax payer money; when CEOs who'd screwed their corporations were given millions to retire with; when a succession of governments ripped off and created the poor; when 46% of your congress became millionaires; when 60 million people sank below the poverty line.

Sorry, buddy, but there ain't too many folks for you to convince. Tell me the above ain't true. Go ahead.

But it is true, and there's little left of the American Dream for the 99%. NO MORE.

I do not care what 2000 polled people think, chosen because they represent the average person. There are NO MORE average people. Fu#k the polls. They are tools to manipulate. NO MORE and no less.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 11:53 AM

Actually, on the subject of percentages, i think we are concentrating on the wrong demographics.

The really important percentage is the one which reflects the number of people who feel they still have a stake in the system.
I'm talking about property owners, pensioners, public employees, university graduates, those of us with a few measly grand in the bank, etc etc.....at a rough guess,80%.

Against that, those with nothing to lose at all and those with something to lose, but who dont give a flying fuck whether they lose it or not,......like me, a lifelong Communist, politically motivated against Capitalism.......20%???

Now my days as a gambler tell me that these percentages are piss poor, and we will be marginalised. If we continue we will be liquidated.

This is not the way to go, by all means get rid of the system but do it from inside, We must be united with the majority...who are conservative, so that means a change of direction from the left.

A tactical retreat......we fucked up big time in not recognising the value of Mrs Palin and the Tea Party....and its anti politics stance.

Never expect to change this system in a month or a year, think about a couple of generations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 11:56 AM

Bruce,

You are letting your anger interfere with even reading posts.

I put up a post that Gallup says of all polled, 22% support what they think are the OWS goals.
THAT poll says that 63% don't know enough to say.

Bobad posted that, contrary to expectations, the FOX poll shows 70% of respondants saying they support the goals of the OWS. I then invited comment by Bobert, since he claims that FOX viewers/listeners are all bigoted, racist, ignorant yahoos. ( who support OWS, it seems)

I am then attacked by greggie, and you seem to think that I have made some comment ABOUT THE GOALS of the OWS Movement- WHICH I HAVE NOT!!!!

Stop telling me I am wrong when for all you know I AGREE WITH YOU!!!

THAT is a certain way to make sure nothing gets done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 12:08 PM

btw, isn't



http://www.klfy.com/story/15717759/second-hand-dealer-law


the sort of thing that puts more control in the banks? I THINK that the 99% would think it a bad idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 01:15 PM

"You asked earlier about "Occupy Wall Street" and what I've said is that I understand the frustrations that are being expressed in those protests. In some ways, they're not that different from some of the protests that we saw coming from the Tea Party, both on the left and the right. I think people feel separated from their government, that the institutions aren't looking out for them "


http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/transcript-abc-news-jake-tappers-exclusive-interview-president/story?id=14764446&singlePage=true


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 02:01 PM

beardedbruce,

You I trust. Ake I trust. However, there is not one single source from any main-stream media publication I trust. NOT ONE!

The purpose of media is to manipulate. I do not care what they have to say. It is meaningless to me. I can read lies, obfuscations, bullsh#t, falsehoods, aspersions, untruths until the cows come home. And at the end of the day they will still be lies, obfuscations, bullsh#t, falsehoods, aspersions and/or untruths. Poor people don't own newspapers, television stations, radio stations. Rich people, governments, corporate conglomerates do. To me, it's that simple.

I'm not angry, I'm fed up. Period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 04:15 PM

Are you not a member now, Bruce? I tried to PM you and I couldn't find you on the list.

What I wanted to do was send you a link to this talk by David Icke about the financial meltdown, the banks, Bush and Obama, etc...it's very good, very well thought out, very clearly explained. The interviewer is on a Russian TV show (I think it's Russian...sounds like it), so his questions are in Russian, but David Icke replies in English. Since David Icke does most of the talking, this works fine for for us English-speaking viewers even if we don't comprehend the Russian language questions. So don't be put off by the brief Russian language intro at the beginning, just wait for David Icke to reply to the questions.

David Icke speaks about the world financial crisis


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 04:23 PM

When I said "Bruce", I meant 999.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 04:38 PM

I just messaged you, LH.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 04:43 PM

Got it. Thanks!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 05:11 PM

I'm about half way through the link that LH put up... Very interesting so far...

And...


...400...

B~


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