BS: Wall Street Protesters...

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 03:48 PM

Bruce, the Paul Krugman article you posted at 11 Oct 11-09:51 a.m.?

Excellent! Clear and very much to the point. Thank you for posting that!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 02:57 PM

"The Chongo Chimps are the ones who don't get it." - Stringsinger

What the heck are you talkin' about, Mister? I am 100% in favour of the Occupy Wall Street movement! I say more power to the protestors. The bankers and mega-corporates have robbed and impoverished this society and co-opted government. They are destroyin' the middle class and playin' pyramid schemes with money they made outta thin air. They are crooks! They oughta be arrested and put on trial for grand larceny from the public purse.

It is asinine to pretend, as Sawzaw does, that this movement is anti-capitalist. What a laugh. Corporatism is NOT capitalism! As a matter of fact, corporatism as it is practiced today destroys traditional capitalism, destroys local jobs, puts American out of work, sends the jobs overseas, and shuts down small businesses everywhere. Corporatism and international banking congolomerates are wiping traditional capitalism and the American middle class who used to benefit from traditional capitalism off the face of North America.

This is the real truth that the Republicans cannot face up to. Their policies are killing capitalism and replacing it with centralized rule by huge banks and huge corporations...and it ends up lookin' more like a new form of Stalinism with a big dollar sign stuck on its face to me.

Get this, Stringsinger: I AM a member of the 99%!

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 01:29 PM

Actually, bruce, nothing that you have just said changes the facts on the ground about the OWS movement... Strings hit 'um pretty well with his 12:12 post...

As for "permitting" different opinions, that's not true... I don't believe that any of your posts have been deleted... Yeah, you do seem to camp out on the right side of the divide and it's true that most of the folks here are on the "other" side but, hey, this is a fold musicians web site... What would you expect??? Folk musicians tend to be more liberal than the general population... That's just simple reality... I mean, if I go to a Young Republican website with my ideas then I'm not going to find too many people who agree with me, if any... That's reality...

But I'd rather have a Mudcat with you as part of the community than one without you... It's not about permitting or not permitting but accepting someone who doesn't agree with the majority... No one here that I know of dislikes you for your views... You, for the most part, present them without malice...

BTW, how's that school coming???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 12:46 PM

Strings,

"BB most people bend the facts to fit their perception of the world"

Agreed, yet most here deny it when THEY are caught doing do.



"There are no objective facts that are not open to interpretation."

Agan, the majority HERE do NOT permit any interpretation that does not fit their agendas.




" Even gravity is defied by air travel."

Not a true statement. Air travel does not in any way defy gravity- The aerodynamic lift provides a counter to it, but planes will fall out of the sky when that does not counterbalance the force of gravity.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 12:24 PM

Sawzaw, Adbusters didn't invent our economic problems, they found a way to describe them. These problems were there before Adbusters came on the scene. The Chongo Chimps are the ones who don't get it.

BB most people bend the facts to fit their perception of the world. There are no objective facts that are not open to interpretation. Even gravity is defied by air travel.

The important aspect of the OWS movement is that it reflects the views of the participants who come from all walks of life and are not, as the media deprecatingly refers to them, pot smoking hippies.

Otherwise the police wouldn't have to be so brutal in their crackdown.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 12:12 PM

Hi Dick,



The actions that the protesters are looking for and hope to achieve is for the wealthy CEO's and corporations to pay their fair share of taxes, for cut backs on the Military Industrial Complex and bring soldiers home from the failed wars. Congress as run by Republicans and wishy-washy Democrats will not listen to what the people are saying. They have too much invested economically in the status quo and are controlled by corporate purse strings. There is also a demand for a systemic change in the way our government functions by ridding of lobbying, developing regulations that have teeth, such as Glass Steagal, eliminating the ruse that "corporations are people" and are entitled to buy "free speech", which is not really free. The important aspect of this movement is that the dots are finally being connected, the exploitation of the American working and middle class, the prolonged wars, the control of government by corporations, the exploitation of insurance providers, the malfeasance of energy company polluters, the
disenfranchisement of the electorate, the takeover of congress by Republican special interest groups such as ALEC (The American Legislative Exchange Council) which seeks to promote bills by buying legislators, and the abject failure of Libertarianism, "trickle down" economics, and the trashing of government by those who game the system.

What's not to understand?

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: ollaimh
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 12:11 PM

i read a book by neil fergeson published before the
crash" called the ascent of money. he pointed out that over eighty percent of the financial instruments being traded and sold on wall street didn't exist in 1990. they made a lot of money creating stocks and bonds out of thin air, by packaging exisiting ones, then sold derivatives and derivitives on derivitives, and options on derivitivies, etc. with the cash they suddessfully lobbied congress to remove the already limp wristed regulations, and went to town! the result was a classic bubble.

now in canada we had a government that may have been too business oriented but ran surplusses for eleven years, and refused the banks permission to engage in the risky financial instruments being created in wall street, they were pilloried by the business community, but eureka! we had no bamk failures! we had no insurance company failures! no mortgage company failures ! no trust company conpany failres!

and or big five bankc are among the biggest in the world because we have bank consolidation--few or no mlocal banks, and our bankc play on the world stage, especially in the carribean, parts of south america and europe.

wow , regulation. what a concept. don't let the crooks from military capitaqlism steal all the money! they did it oin the eighties with the chicago mercantile exchange scandal where the largest commidities exchange in the world was a bucket shop with over a third of the people involved on the take, then the nineties the savings and loan five finger discount for the big corporations then the tech bubble then the great crash. they will steal all the money if you leave them unregulated. and calling any attempt at regulation socialism is just stupidity. there are fer instance no socialist governments in europe any more! but they regulate. canada's regulation was not socialism, the prime minister and finance minister who was the artichect of the whole regulatory system was a major corporate owner! but he was a canadian liberal who believed in corporate responsibility.

if you don't regylate they will strsl all the money!! it's that simple.

when your military has gifted you a whole un exploited continent, the biggest lottery win in mankinds history, if you caqn't make that work your system is totally screwed up! any body but idiots can make north america the wealthiest palces in the world. anybody but the american right wingnuts

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:56 AM

Oops. Sorry- I missed the bit about Greenpeace. Zoned out by the time I hit that part.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:44 AM

Not likely. You guys still club seals, I think. Hey, I hear some greedy folks here have nice pelts. If we work things out right, we can send them way up north and you can get sloppy seconds on the furs.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM

Greenpeace started here? I wasn't aware of that. Makes one proud to be Canadian!

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:29 AM

Thanks for posting the Paul Krugman op-ed, bruceie... He fairly well sums up the situation...

And for "Exhibit A" all one has to do is go to washingtonpost.com and read the discussions... There are about 8 or 9 of the upper 1% who have literally camped out there 24/7 manning their front... It the same people who have tried 100s, maybe thousands, of times to change the conversation to "poo" or people wanting a "handout"...

They absolutely will not engage in any other conversation other than calling the folks who have something intelligent to say as socialists or morons!!! That, my friends, is the response of the super wealthy... Name calling and bogus stories about poo...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:27 AM

Just another reason why I love Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:02 AM

That isn't news, Sawzaw. I mentioned it--although not with your degree of erudition--days back on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999 -- IMPORTANT READ, IMO.
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:51 AM

I have posted the article here rather than link to it. Paul Krugman was a Nobel Prize recipient (Economics) in 2008. He might be worth reading. It casts light on some recent rants against OWS.

Panic of the Plutocrats
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: October 9, 2011

It remains to be seen whether the Occupy Wall Street protests will change America's direction. Yet the protests have already elicited a remarkably hysterical reaction from Wall Street, the super-rich in general, and politicians and pundits who reliably serve the interests of the wealthiest hundredth of a percent.

And this reaction tells you something important — namely, that the extremists threatening American values are what F.D.R. called "economic royalists," not the people camping in Zuccotti Park.

Consider first how Republican politicians have portrayed the modest-sized if growing demonstrations, which have involved some confrontations with the police — confrontations that seem to have involved a lot of police overreaction — but nothing one could call a riot. And there has in fact been nothing so far to match the behavior of Tea Party crowds in the summer of 2009.

Nonetheless, Eric Cantor, the House majority leader, has denounced "mobs" and "the pitting of Americans against Americans." The G.O.P. presidential candidates have weighed in, with Mitt Romney accusing the protesters of waging "class warfare," while Herman Cain calls them "anti-American." My favorite, however, is Senator Rand Paul, who for some reason worries that the protesters will start seizing iPads, because they believe rich people don't deserve to have them.

Michael Bloomberg, New York's mayor and a financial-industry titan in his own right, was a bit more moderate, but still accused the protesters of trying to "take the jobs away from people working in this city," a statement that bears no resemblance to the movement's actual goals.

And if you were listening to talking heads on CNBC, you learned that the protesters "let their freak flags fly," and are "aligned with Lenin."

The way to understand all of this is to realize that it's part of a broader syndrome, in which wealthy Americans who benefit hugely from a system rigged in their favor react with hysteria to anyone who points out just how rigged the system is.

Last year, you may recall, a number of financial-industry barons went wild over very mild criticism from President Obama. They denounced Mr. Obama as being almost a socialist for endorsing the so-called Volcker rule, which would simply prohibit banks backed by federal guarantees from engaging in risky speculation. And as for their reaction to proposals to close a loophole that lets some of them pay remarkably low taxes — well, Stephen Schwarzman, chairman of the Blackstone Group, compared it to Hitler's invasion of Poland.

And then there's the campaign of character assassination against Elizabeth Warren, the financial reformer now running for the Senate in Massachusetts. Not long ago a YouTube video of Ms. Warren making an eloquent, down-to-earth case for taxes on the rich went viral. Nothing about what she said was radical — it was no more than a modern riff on Oliver Wendell Holmes's famous dictum that "Taxes are what we pay for civilized society."

But listening to the reliable defenders of the wealthy, you'd think that Ms. Warren was the second coming of Leon Trotsky. George Will declared that she has a "collectivist agenda," that she believes that "individualism is a chimera." And Rush Limbaugh called her "a parasite who hates her host. Willing to destroy the host while she sucks the life out of it."

What's going on here? The answer, surely, is that Wall Street's Masters of the Universe realize, deep down, how morally indefensible their position is. They're not John Galt; they're not even Steve Jobs. They're people who got rich by peddling complex financial schemes that, far from delivering clear benefits to the American people, helped push us into a crisis whose aftereffects continue to blight the lives of tens of millions of their fellow citizens.

Yet they have paid no price. Their institutions were bailed out by taxpayers, with few strings attached. They continue to benefit from explicit and implicit federal guarantees — basically, they're still in a game of heads they win, tails taxpayers lose. And they benefit from tax loopholes that in many cases have people with multimillion-dollar incomes paying lower rates than middle-class families.

This special treatment can't bear close scrutiny — and therefore, as they see it, there must be no close scrutiny. Anyone who points out the obvious, no matter how calmly and moderately, must be demonized and driven from the stage. In fact, the more reasonable and moderate a critic sounds, the more urgently he or she must be demonized, hence the frantic sliming of Elizabeth Warren.

So who's really being un-American here? Not the protesters, who are simply trying to get their voices heard. No, the real extremists here are America's oligarchs, who want to suppress any criticism of the sources of their wealth.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:37 AM

Chongo D. Chimp must be the mastermind behind all of this OWS stuff.

Don't watch alphabet television networks, but Adbuster ads promoting Occupy Wall Street will keep you safe from risk of mental illness.

The Canadian "Mental Environmentalists" Face behind Occupy Wall Street
canadafreepress.com October 6, 2011

If you are a factory owner or in the business of making widgets in today's America, you are a capitalist pig and Occupy Wall Street protesters will use you as an excuse for anarchy with violent signs that read: "Eat the Rich".

If you are a Michael Moore or a Susan Sarandon, making millions in the film world, Wall Street protesters will eat you up, sing your praises and bow forever at just the mention of your name.

As George Orwell penned long ago, "Some animals are more equal than others".

The face of the Occupy Wall Street protest is a Canadian one.

It's the face that belongs to AdBusters owner Kalle Lasn, but can't be found on AdBusters website. Canada Free Press (CFP) went to the Way Back Machine to bring Lasn forward today.

But Lasn takes full credit for the protests that started with Wall Street and are spreading across North America to other cities in today's Globe and Mail.

"This was all cooked up right here at Adbusters. It's a Canadian adventure," he said."

"Egypt and Tahrir Square proved that a few smart people on the Internet can call for something and, if it captures the public's imagination, it can get tens of thousands of people out on the streets."
Lasn collaborated on the book Design Anarchy (2006) with fellow social activists Michael Simons and Paul Shoebridge.

This is the biography written by Kalle Lasn revived from Way Back Machine: "I was born in Tallinn, Estonia, during the middle of World War II. In 1944, as the Russian army approached Tallinn, my family escaped to Germany. We lived in a displaced persons' camp for five years. When I was seven we immigrated to Australia where I received my education, graduating with a B.Sc. in pure and applied mathematics. My first job was with the Australian Defense Department where I played computer-simulated war games in the Pacific Ocean. At age 23 I headed for Europe, but my boat stopped in Yokohama for two days. I fell in love with Japan and was unable to get back on the boat. During the '60s I ran a market research company in Tokyo and made enough money to travel around the world for three years. Then I returned to Japan, married Masako Tominaga and we immigrated to Canada. I started a documentary film making company. Over the next 15 years, my documentaries were broadcast on PBS, CBC and around the world, winning over 15 international awards.

"In 1989 I produced a 30-second TV spot about the disappearing old-growth forests of the Pacific Northwest, but to my dismay, none of the commercial TV stations would sell me any airtime. The Media Foundation, Adbusters Magazine and Powershift Advertising Agency were all born out of this incident and the realization that there is no democracy on the airwaves. I've spent the last thirteen years editing and publishing Adbusters, launching social marketing campaigns like Buy Nothing Day and TV Turnoff Week, and fighting legal battles for the right to access the public airwaves."

According to Wikipedia, "Adbusters Media Foundation is a not-for-profit, anti-consumerist, pro-environment organization founded in 1989 by Kalle Lasn and Bill Schmalz in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. The foundation describes itself as a "global network of artists, activists, writers, pranksters, students, educators and entrepreneurs who want to advance the new social activist movement of the information age.

"The Adbusters Media Foundation publishes the reader-supported, advertising-free Adbusters, an activist magazine with an international circulation of 120,000 devoted to challenging consumerism. Notable past and present contributors to the magazine include Christopher Hedges, Matt Taibbi, Bill McKibben, Jim Munroe, Douglas Rushkoff, Jonathan Barnbrook, David Graeber and others."

Before starting off the North American protest movement based on the so-called "Arab Spring", Adbuster's main claim to fame was "Mental Environmentalism".

While Environment giant Greenpeace, (which also originates from Canada) campaigns against pollution and takes to the seas to "Save the Whales", AdBusters' self-professed "greenthink' aims to "clean up the toxic areas of our mind".

The pollution of invading the privacy of the human "mind" is not mentioned.

The Adbuster greenthink is on the record describing how "Mental environmentalists argue that a whole range of phenomenon from the BP oil spill to the emergency of crony-democracy to the mass extinction of animals to the significant increase in mental illnesses are directly caused by the three thousand advertisements that assault our minds each day", though this is tagged with a Wikipedia notation "citation needed"

Don't watch alphabet television networks, but Adbuster ads promoting Occupy Wall Street will keep you safe from risk of mental illness.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:36 AM

I have spent six days at Occupy Wall Street here in New York City, and I assure you that it is not a pro-Obama event. If anything, people are just as critical of Obama as they are of all the other politicians, Democrats as well as Republicans. Occupy Wall Street is about how corporate wealth and power have co-opted, subverted, bought off, twisted, undermined, thwarted, and dismembered American democracy. If anything, the Case of Barack Obama is Exhibit 1.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:11 AM

Yeah, LH... Whereas most of the OWSers will either vote for Obama or not vote, this is kinda a sidebar movement... That's why I like it and will continue with the Charlotte group... This conversation is long overdue... The right wing has done everything in their power to change the conversation...

On the Washington Post discussions all the righties want to talk about is some guy who used a cop car as a bathroom... What the righties absolutely will not accept is that one thing that every group has in common is that the movement is non-violent... Everyone pledges in the "General Assembly" to abide to rules of non-violence toward other folks and ****property****... But the right gleefully says over and over and over (100s of times) the same mantra about OWSers pooping on cop cars... That is their entire response other than accusing the OWSers of wanting a handout...

No matter...

It's up to *US* to ignore the "ignor"ant and just keep pointing out that America needs to restore democracy and justice... If we do that, everything else is just details...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 12:03 AM

I don't think OWS is about supporting Obama. I don't think it's about supporting any political party. It's about exposing and resisting the domination of our societies by a criminal financial elite which has been controlling ALL the major political parties through corporate funding of their campaigns and through lobbying politicians in office and through playing totally irresponsible financial games with the public's money.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 07:54 PM

It could become something... from "nothing". Hey... if all of the people who got fucked over by big business protest and shut things down, maybe big business will have to listen to them. Of course, let's hope big business have already fired off all their cruise missiles bombing people 8000 miles away.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 07:46 PM

BINGO, TIA!!!

They are scared shitless...

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 07:40 PM

Yup. Everybody I am seeing and talking to is not getting any money from anyone to be there. Nobody is bought. And the 1% are scared shitless that we can't be bought. So they are trying to convince the Faux viewing sheep that we are a dangerous mob.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 07:27 PM

You notice, TIA, that my rebuttals to bb don't mention Obama once... Or anyone else for that matter...

I get OWS... It's about "democracy" in action... That's what scares the right... They hare democracy because it means that we elect people differently and people can't buy power... Purdy simple...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 07:20 PM

Look carefully. OWS is not an Obama rally. BB's post is intended to start an argument on another topic. OWS is not about supporting Obama. He can choose for himself which side he is on. And, I will expect him to do so.

I suggest taht everyone and everyone go to their local Occupy gathering - judge for yourselves whether these people are puppets or frustrated *individuals*. Until you do that, you are talking out your arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 06:37 PM

This morning, on my local NPR affiliate, I heard a discussion with Seattle's mayor Mike McGinn about "Occupy Seattle," the local mirror of "Occupy Wall Street." Steve Scher (an excellent interviewer) asked Mayor McGinn about some of the restrictions he had placed on the demonstrators who were gathering and camping at Westlake Park. The mayor responded that he was not allowing them to pitch tents and camp there overnight because that was a violation of long-standing city ordinances. He offered the demonstrators the alternative of camping on the large lawn next to City Hall, a few blocks South of Westlake Park.

As the interview progressed, Mayor McGinn indicated that he thoroughly understood what motivates the protesters and, fundamentally, is in agreement with them. He cited statistics about the inequitable distribution of wealth in this country and deplored the city services that he was forced to cut and the people he had to lay off due to budget constraints brought about by the country's sick economy. This, along with Seattle's stalled light rail system and the egregious traffic gridlock in and around the city because the city simply does not have the funds to fix it.

In the last half hour of the program (interrupted from time to time by the station's current ongoing "beg-a-thon"), as he usually does, Steve opened the phones and invited people who had questions or comments to call in. The first caller exploded all over the mayor, reading him out for his allowing anarchists and hooligans to use city facilities and accused him of being (oh, horrors!!) a Socialist!!

That, of course, is the ultimate curse. And like many of this caller's ilk, I'm quite sure that when he calls the city to bitch about the pot-hole in the street in front of his house, he's counting on certain "socialistic" practices to come out and fix it for him (rather than pay for it himself). There are a lot of really clueless people who, nevertheless, have the power of the vote.

The rest of the callers were generally saner and better informed.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 06:09 PM

Exactly, the money goes both ways... The corporations "cover themselves like bus station whores"...

OWSers are saying in general that all this is doing is preventing *US* from having a democracy... When 90% of candidates who spend the most $$$ win and there is no control over who contributes to whom, with no disclosure, then we will get nothing but corruption...

And, bb, what your blogger has done is narrowed the focus so much that if this were a submarine with a hole the size of Volkswagen and another the size of a pin hole your blogger is ignoring the VW hole and diverting attention away toward the pinhole... This is the tactic of the rigth... Never talk about the big picture... Always find some detail to make into the big picture...

The big picture is that we have BIG $$$ running out goevernment...

I don't give a rat's ass where this amount went or that amount... We saw billion$$$ of ads that were for this guy or that guy that we frankly have no idea who was buying them...

Do you agree that we don't want the Chinese to own our Congress???

Well, they can according to your Supreme Court...

We need to restore a workable democracy... If we can't do that then we are going to be a failed state...

Bob (OccupyCharlotte.com)

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 04:06 PM

As far as I can see, Obama's allegiance is to the same basic cartel of special interests that Bush's allegiance was to....disguised by the illusion of the 2-party system, a two-headed monster that fights public battles against itself to keep the public divided against themselves just like people cheering for two baseball teams at the World Series. The 2 teams are employed by the same league. The league cashes in when you buy your ticket to "see the game". You pick the team you like the best, hate the other team, and the game goes on. The team that wins the championship (the election) gets a big bonus and gets to hold the cup (office) for 2 to 4 years (depending on which level of the office). This ensure that those 2 bogus teams will play damn hard whenever they're out on the field, and they will use any dirty tactic to win and secure the spoils of victory, but they don't do it for you. They work for their rich owners and for the league of rich owners...and their own personal gain.

It's a charade. The people you elect don't work for you any more than the baseball players you go to see at the World Series. They work for their owners. And who are their owners? Bankers and corporate CEOs, that's who. You know...those people who make 1,000 times more money than you ever will, but don't work any harder than you do? That's who owns the Republican and Democratic Parties...a set of corporate vampires who suck the lifeblood from society and make money from waging war.

Your traditional loyalty to one party and your hatred of the other is not going to deliver you from the oppression you are under...only sink you deeper in the illusion. And it will end up making you hate one another. This thread (and all the other political threads) are stark proof of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 03:35 PM

...from a recent post:

"Obama's close relationship with JP Morgan Chase was highlighted earlier this year when he tapped Bill Daley, a former top executive with the bank, to replace Rahm Emanuel as his chief of staff."

That say a lot about Obama's allegiances.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 03:04 PM

"This is reality"- No one has it right except me.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 02:07 PM

"Who gave what to whom is no longer traceable... Anything that anyone writes about this amount or than amount has nothing to do with reality."

The numbers in the article posted are those that ARE TRACEABLE- showing that Obama is more "Bought and Paid For" than even GWB.

YET YOU still make claims about the Right, and deny them about the Left....

Seems like YOU have a real problem with looking at ANY facts that are brought up, unless they support what YOU want us to believe.




"where all views are heard and BIG money is taken out of politics, "

You mean like NOT calling anyone who opposes the policies of the present administration Racist, and NOT letting the present administration buy the election as they did in 2008, spending far more money than those who disagreed with them???

Or do you only apply balance to the OTHER side??







btw, congrats on the Blues Challenge win.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 01:54 PM

BTW, good to hear from you, bruce...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 01:53 PM

Here's the deal, bb...

Who gave what to whom is no longer traceable... Anything that anyone writes about this amount or than amount has nothing to do with reality... The Supreme Court has ruled that it is none of our business who, domestic of foreign, buys our elections and owns the folks in Congress...

This is reality...

So much for paid rightie bloggers who pour 40 hours a week into playing the "numbers games"... If the left had those resources and hired an equal number of bloggers, stat men, etc they would undoubtedly turn the story 180 degrees around...

The problem here is that until we find a way to balance the playing field, where all views are heard and BIG money is taken out of politics, we will not have democracy...

That's what OWS is about...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 01:39 PM

Say what all ya want: OWS is happening, and that's the long and short of it.

Thanks to both Steve and Etan for the info. We don't get all that much from the 'news'.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 12:29 PM

That is exactly what we NEED to do GfS.....but first we have to understand that humanity has a finite standard of living.
If a section goes over that standard.....another section suffers.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 12:15 PM

Bobert: "
"Well, the scientists say
It'll all wash away
But we don't believe
in them any more...

Flat earthers UNITE!!!!"


They did!!...and formed political parties!!!! (Yours included, BTW)!!

Bobert: "As for the usual pest, Saws... It wasn't until 700 people were arrested in New York that OWS got any attention from BIG MEDIA... But I'm not going to play any ballgames with you on this thread because you are not capable of looking at the big picture..."

FALSE!!! It was one the 'news' before ANYONE was arrested....unless you get your 'news' from re-runs of 'Felix the Cat'....(which wouldn't surprise me!)

................

Do not confuse 'capitalism' with 'corporatism'...and furthermore GLOBALIST CORPORATISM. The are TWO distinct things.
One is akin to 'communism', and the other is a way to get compensated for your work.

(Actually, I'm pretty tired with ALL 'isms'! You'd think by now people would get tired of segregating themselves into 'elite' groups, based on manipulated ideologies, and return to the FAMILY of man!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 12:10 PM

"Despite his rhetorical attacks on Wall Street, a study by the Sunlight Foundation's Influence Project shows that President Barack Obama has received more money from Wall Street than any other politician over the past 20 years, including former President George W. Bush.
In 2008, Wall Street's largesse accounted for 20 percent of Obama's total take, according to Reuters.
When asked by The Daily Caller to comment about President Obama's credibility when it comes to criticizing Wall Street, the White House declined to reply....

In fact, the Sunlight Foundation, a nonpartisan watchdog group that tracks lobbyist spending and influence in both parties, found that President Obama has received more money from Bank of America than any other candidate dating back to 1991.
An examination of the numbers shows that Obama took in $421,242 in campaign contributions in 2008 from Bank of America's executives, PACs and employees, which exceeded its prior record contribution of $329,761 to President George W. Bush in 2004.
According to the Center for Responsive Politics, Wall Street firms also contributed more to Obama's 2008 campaign than they gave to Republican nominee John McCain.
"The securities and investment industry is Obama's second largest source of bundlers, after lawyers, at least 56 individuals have raised at least $8.9 million for his campaign," Massie Ritsch wrote in a Sept. 18, 2008 entry on the Center for Responsive Politics's OpenSecrets blog.
By the end of Barack Obama's 2008 campaign, executives and others connected with Wall Street firms, such as Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, Citigroup, UBS AG, JPMorgan Chase, and Morgan Stanley, poured nearly $15.8 million into his coffers.
Goldman Sachs contributed slightly over $1 million to Obama's 2008 presidential campaign, compared with a little over $394,600 to the 2004 Bush campaign. Citigroup gave $736,771 to Obama in 2008, compared with $320,820 to Bush in 2004. Executives and others connected with the Swiss bank UBS AG donated $539,424 to Obama's 2008 campaign, compared with $416,950 to Bush in 2004. And JP Morgan Chase gave Obama's campaign $808,799 in 2008, but did not show up among Bush's top donors in 2004, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.
Obama's close relationship with JP Morgan Chase was highlighted earlier this year when he tapped Bill Daley, a former top executive with the bank, to replace Rahm Emanuel as his chief of staff.
Wall Street's generosity to Obama didn't end with his 2008 campaign either. Wall Street donors contributed $4.8 million to underwrite Obama's inauguration, according to a Jan. 15, 2009 Reuters report.
So far Wall Street has raised $7.2 million in the current electoral cycle for President Obama, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. Obama's 2012 Wall Street bundlers include people like Jon Corzine, former Goldman Sachs CEO and former New Jersey governor; Azita Raji, a former investment banker for JP Morgan; and Charles Myers, an executive with the investment bank Evercore Partners...."



http://news.yahoo.com/obama-attacks-banks-while-raking-wall-street-dough-044804642.html

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: ollaimh
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 12:01 PM

the "capitalism" offered by the right in the usa is an extension of the british "laissez faire" capitalism of the old empire. chri hedges has called it inverted totalitarianism. i prefer just totalitarianism capitalism, or militray capitalism. it's free enterprse for only those conected to the corporate elite and poverty and death to everybody else. totalitarianisn capitalism wil devour the planet and render higher life forms unsustainable at the rate it's going.

they are more interested in war and eternal oil dependancy that a rational economy for people. i supported the wall street bailout but in a different way. take back equity in the banks bailed out for the cash. not a giveaway. then you can do the forensic accounting to find the real criminals of our time. however we got this give away instead . showing that free enterprise and competition is only for the poor and unconnected not for the corporate elte.

of course the whole mess was the direct result of the foolishness of the bush years of an ruinously expensive war in iraq and un believable deficits. if that kind of money had been put into alternate energy resourses we would be well on the way to energy self sufficiency in north america now! and we could let the saudis et al drift back into the obscurity they deserve.

however that wouldn't feed the corporate military budgets and the oil boys like dick cheney and buch. remember cheney was head of haliburton.

americans are so easily rilled up by red herring issues i don't know how you get controll of te republic from the corporate elite, but untill it happens the disaster will get worse and worse. remember we haven't even hit the reall problems comming from global warming and resource exhaustion. and are we prepared. or even tinking of preparing?

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 09:04 AM

Good points, Etan...

Here in Occupy Charlotte, it's about the same... Maybe 5% fringe people and 95% middle/moderate progressive Dems and Greens...

There's one trap that I think we don't need to be getting into at this point and that would be specific policy positions... I mean, there's a world of difference between demanding campaign finance reform and getting into the nuts and bolts... Just demanding "justice" in the way we elect officials is, IMHO, as far as OWS needs to go and then be ready to see what the folks in Congress do about out demand...

This is why, again IMHO, we need to push hard for "justice" on all fronts, demand that our leaders will act to correct the corruption and be ready to call them if they play ballgames...

BTW, Occupy Charlotte's next demonstration/general assemble meeting is for this Saturday at 3:00 at Trade and Davidson for anyone within driving range...

As for the usual pest, Saws... It wasn't until 700 people were arrested in New York that OWS got any attention from BIG MEDIA... But I'm not going to play any ballgames with you on this thread because you are not capable of looking at the big picture...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 07:44 AM

Saw a sit-in of students last week in Seville Cathedral, protesting the cuts in education, witnessed 2 street demonstrations there and on our way home on Sunday we passed the Wall Street-type protest-alike outside the Central Bank in Dublin's Dame Street.
Good luck to all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 06:32 AM

The movement may be about justice guys ......but Capitalism shure isn't, in fact Capitalism is about injustice, as you have all just witnessed.

The bank bailouts, the printing of money, the attacks on public services, were all unjust, but very necessary to keep the system alive.
Do you want your cake and eat it? Do you really believe you can have Capitalism AND justice?

To the people who run Mr Obama and the system, we have become uncompetitive, useless and completely dispensible, any growth in our economy will now be engendered by the exploitation of people and resources in the East.....we will be viewed as simply consumers with very little money to purchase consumables.

Our lifestyle is about to take an nosedive, appropriate to our value to the system.

We cant fight them, we cant appeal to their sense of justice, we are of no commercial value to them, our only chance is to understand that the lifestyle we have grown accustomed to has gone for ever, no tweaking will ever repair what is an inevitable part of the Capitalist cycle.......Good news????.....Now we are free to explore alternatives, but dont let anyone tell you that these alternatives will be either "democratic", easy, or "liberal".....survival trumps any of those.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 02:20 AM

Etan, thank you for your on-the-spot report.

I'll try to think of some good songs.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 12:32 AM

I guess the bottom line is Bobert's BIG MEDIA blackballing is another Bobert "fact"

If you have the time Bobert, please define justice.

I hope you won't avoid it with your usual blowhard "do it yourself" avoidance routine like you do about the "shitload of Dixiecrats" that you know nothing about.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Etan
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 12:21 AM

I've taken a day off from Occupy Wall Street to return to normal life as a family guy, and to nurse my sore feet. I will tell you what I've seen, from my perspective, and I'll answer any non-argumentative questions.

I'm not sleeping in Liberty Plaza, which is already overcrowded, but spending a great deal of my non-working time there. What we do mostly is talk & listen and try to figure out what we agree on as reasonable goals and reasonable strategies to get them.

Political opinions in the plaza range from Ron Paul libertarian to the usual array of communist factions. However, most people are in the middle: you can call them frustrated progressive Democrats and you probably wouldn't be far off. I think most people in the plaza would describe themselves as patriotic. They want to see America set back on a course that provides some degree of economic security and democracy. I think most would agree with Roosevelt's second bill of rights and Eisenhower's appraisal of the military industrial complex.

The average person sleeping in the plaza is necessarily young and jobless though often college educated with a history of work. Conditions are very rough without tents, port-o-sans, or showers. There is almost no organization of sleeping areas. People are tossing their foam pads, sleeping bags, and tarps wherever they can, which is often quite close to foot traffic. There is constant city noise, even during quiet hours, and there is the constant threat of a police raid in the middle of the night. People are running on short sleep and with much tension, and they are often cold and wet. It makes your worst festival experience look like a luxury hotel.

Older people usually drop by during the day, as I do. Some are members of the unions that support the action, some are old leftists, and some are just frustrated with the state of the economy and corporate power. It's true that the 'kids' are running the show. They are inexperienced, but they're learning.

Saturday's two marches and rally in Washington Square Park pretty much went off without a negative incident. We have been described as an unruly mob, etc. We showed that to be a lie by our behavior during this event. Police instructions were observed during the march. The rally did not disrupt anything besides a few buskers pitches. Nothing was looted, vandalized, trashed, etc. People behaved themselves responsibly. Even the punk kids have begun to understand our role in convincing the average working person that we are on their side.

Mark Ross, Bruce Murdoch, and I have worked up a new version of "Which Side Are You On". I have an updated version of "Whitehouse Blues" which has been well received. I'm working on an updated "Keep Your Eyes on the Prize" or "Keep Your Hand on the Plow." I hope to organize small groups of street singers to go out into the streets of the financial district during work week rush and lunch hours. New York is generally tolerant of unamplified sidewalk busking. I will take suggestions for other easy to learn and sing political songs.

I realize that I've been rambling on here. To paraphrase Mark Twain, I'd have written a shorter post, but I didn't have enough time.

If you have questions about what's going on, please email me directly, and I'll try to answer. I'll post the new lyrics to White House Blues with a Lyric Add heading. Best wishes to everyone.

-- Etan

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 11:06 PM

Yeah, this entire movement is about justice...

Period...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 11:00 PM

In other words the current Tea Party has hijacked the views of the original founding fathers and misrepresented them.

Why are people occupying Wall St? Bankers took advantage of deregulation to cause massive inflation through reckless lending. Paying themselves big bucks - then were bailed out by taxpayers when everything collapsed.

The upper 1% of Americans are now taking in nearly a quarter of the nation's income every year. The top 1 percent control 40 percent of the wealth. Twenty-five years ago, the corresponding figures were 12 percent at the top held 33% of the wealth.

How can this be democratic? Look to Norway and other northern European countries for a better economic model. And with this goes better social justioe for their people as well.

I hope Washington listens to these protests - the people in the streets can't access politicians the way lobbyists can, this way they are getting heard. Follow the REAL traditions of the Founding Fathers and tax the big boys, like everyone else, and spread the wealth into schools, hospitals and jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 10:43 PM

The Tea Party is anti-tax, but the original Boston tea party was against the BRITISH taxing America and sending the money back to Britain. Alexander Hamilton the first U.S. Treasury secretary built America's financial policy based on the need to tax Americans. He knew that to run a prosperous and secure independent country requires taxing the population - equally.

Hamilton established new taxes on liquor, tea, and coffee. His plan was an economic success: the federal government quickly established a solid credit rating, consolidated its debts at low interest rates, and began paying them down rapidly. His plan also led to the new nation's first anti-tax rebellion. In western states, farmers refused to pay the new tax on whiskey (which was sometimes used as a medium of exchange), leading to armed rebellion in Pennsylvania. In 1794, President Washington raised a federal militia and dispatched it to western Pennsylvania. The Whiskey Rebellion collapsed, cementing the federal government's power to levy and collect taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 10:30 PM

Meanwhile, please click here for a YouTube video of me singing my song Union Warriors at the Occupy Wall Street encampment in New York City on Friday, October 7, 2011. Yes, I am playing my sensational Felix the Cat Martin guitar.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 10:03 PM

Ain't about war with China, gn-ze... Neither economy needs that... Both need to grow at 4%... Not one at 8% and the other at 2%...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 09:55 PM

So... where is it all going? I mean, what is going to happen in the end of it all? War with China?

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 08:19 PM

Well stated, Suffet... The anti- government people will ***believe*** and anti-government conspiracy theory that the wackos can think up with no regard to either knowledge of economics or facts...

Normal...

"Well, the scientists say
It'll all wash away
But we don't believe
in them any more...

Flat earthers UNITE!!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 11:12 AM

Greetings:

From the very beginnings of the United States of America, monetary policy was one of the nation's great divisive issues. It was what was behind Shays' rebellion, Hamilton's plan to for the federal government to assume the states' debts, the struggles over the First and Second Bank of the United States, the Panic of 1837, the issuance of Greenbacks (US Notes, i.e. unsecured paper currency), the repeal of bimetalism (ie. a dual gold and silver standard with the ratio fixed by law) in 1873, The Bland-Allison Silver Purchase Act of 1878, the Sherman Silver Purchase Act of 1890, William Jennings Bryan's "Cross of Gold" speech, and more. By the beginning of the 20th century there were hard money Democrats, hard money Republicans, soft money Democrats, and soft money Republicans, as well as many voices from minor parties, all tugging in different directions. So in 1913, the factions of the two major parties agreed on a truce that would take the question of monetary policy out of the political arena (i.e. Congress) and turn it over to a board of supposedly non-partisan experts. That truce was the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, and that board of supposedly non-partisan experts would be almost entirely composed of bankers. So it has been for the past 98 years.

Ron Paul and his supporters are delusional if they think the USA can return to the gold standard, or even to bimetalism. Tying our country's money supply to a commodity, especially one like gold which would leave us at the mercy of Russia, is pure lunacy. We need a system that can regulate the value of our currency in a rational way. Right now we have the Federal Reserve System. Can it be made more accountable and democratic without returning our country to the pitched battles of the 18th and 19th centuries? Probably, but that's not what the anti-Fed people are asking for. Are they?

--- Steve