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BS: Wall Street Protesters...

Related threads:
Occupy Wall Street Songs (33)
a song for Wall Street (6)
BS: The Meaning of OWS (Occupy Wall Street) (31)
PETE (Seeger at Occupy Wall Street) (21)
Songs For The 99% (11)


Bobert 02 Oct 11 - 07:31 PM
artbrooks 02 Oct 11 - 08:03 PM
Bobert 02 Oct 11 - 08:31 PM
artbrooks 02 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM
Bobert 02 Oct 11 - 09:10 PM
Stilly River Sage 02 Oct 11 - 11:15 PM
EBarnacle 03 Oct 11 - 08:51 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Oct 11 - 01:37 PM
Mrrzy 03 Oct 11 - 02:33 PM
Stilly River Sage 03 Oct 11 - 04:14 PM
Lox 03 Oct 11 - 04:28 PM
Bill D 03 Oct 11 - 05:33 PM
Bobert 03 Oct 11 - 05:38 PM
Lighter 03 Oct 11 - 05:41 PM
Bill D 03 Oct 11 - 05:42 PM
Songwronger 03 Oct 11 - 07:31 PM
Etan 03 Oct 11 - 08:39 PM
dick greenhaus 03 Oct 11 - 10:14 PM
Bobert 03 Oct 11 - 10:22 PM
GUEST,999 03 Oct 11 - 10:22 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Oct 11 - 02:23 AM
Bill D 04 Oct 11 - 09:49 AM
Bobert 04 Oct 11 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,999 04 Oct 11 - 10:35 AM
akenaton 04 Oct 11 - 11:16 AM
Stilly River Sage 04 Oct 11 - 11:38 AM
dick greenhaus 04 Oct 11 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Oct 11 - 01:50 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Oct 11 - 01:57 PM
Don Firth 04 Oct 11 - 02:03 PM
Bill D 04 Oct 11 - 02:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Oct 11 - 02:15 PM
gnu 04 Oct 11 - 02:57 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Oct 11 - 03:10 PM
Don Firth 04 Oct 11 - 03:25 PM
akenaton 04 Oct 11 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Oct 11 - 04:05 PM
akenaton 04 Oct 11 - 04:29 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 04 Oct 11 - 04:59 PM
Don Firth 04 Oct 11 - 05:11 PM
Little Hawk 04 Oct 11 - 05:16 PM
GUEST,number 6 04 Oct 11 - 05:36 PM
akenaton 04 Oct 11 - 05:42 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Oct 11 - 05:51 PM
gnu 04 Oct 11 - 06:20 PM
Little Hawk 04 Oct 11 - 06:25 PM
Don Firth 04 Oct 11 - 06:53 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Oct 11 - 06:54 PM
Little Hawk 04 Oct 11 - 06:58 PM
Don Firth 04 Oct 11 - 07:55 PM
Bobert 04 Oct 11 - 08:08 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Oct 11 - 08:12 PM
GUEST,999 04 Oct 11 - 10:59 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Oct 11 - 11:12 PM
Bobert 04 Oct 11 - 11:17 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Oct 11 - 11:24 PM
Little Hawk 05 Oct 11 - 12:51 AM
akenaton 05 Oct 11 - 03:05 AM
Richard Bridge 05 Oct 11 - 03:10 AM
akenaton 05 Oct 11 - 03:11 AM
GUEST,999 05 Oct 11 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Oct 11 - 01:14 PM
Richard Bridge 05 Oct 11 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Oct 11 - 01:32 PM
Little Hawk 05 Oct 11 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,petecockermouth 05 Oct 11 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Oct 11 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Oct 11 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,petecockermouth 05 Oct 11 - 04:10 PM
Richard Bridge 05 Oct 11 - 04:28 PM
Don Firth 05 Oct 11 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,999 05 Oct 11 - 06:02 PM
Bobert 05 Oct 11 - 06:16 PM
Little Hawk 05 Oct 11 - 06:17 PM
GUEST,999 05 Oct 11 - 06:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Oct 11 - 09:20 PM
Bobert 05 Oct 11 - 09:56 PM
GUEST,number 6 05 Oct 11 - 10:04 PM
Bobert 05 Oct 11 - 10:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Oct 11 - 10:28 PM
GUEST,number 6 05 Oct 11 - 10:28 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Oct 11 - 10:30 PM
Bobert 05 Oct 11 - 10:34 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Oct 11 - 11:41 PM
Stilly River Sage 06 Oct 11 - 12:31 AM
Don Firth 06 Oct 11 - 01:59 AM
akenaton 06 Oct 11 - 04:01 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Oct 11 - 08:17 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Oct 11 - 12:11 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Oct 11 - 12:13 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Oct 11 - 12:17 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Oct 11 - 12:28 PM
Don Firth 06 Oct 11 - 01:32 PM
akenaton 06 Oct 11 - 01:55 PM
dick greenhaus 06 Oct 11 - 02:01 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Oct 11 - 02:05 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Oct 11 - 02:08 PM
Little Hawk 06 Oct 11 - 02:17 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Oct 11 - 02:18 PM
dick greenhaus 06 Oct 11 - 03:32 PM
Little Hawk 06 Oct 11 - 03:48 PM
Amos 06 Oct 11 - 03:54 PM
gnu 06 Oct 11 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,999 06 Oct 11 - 05:21 PM
GUEST,999 06 Oct 11 - 05:37 PM
Jeri 06 Oct 11 - 05:40 PM
Bobert 06 Oct 11 - 05:53 PM
GUEST,TIA 06 Oct 11 - 05:56 PM
Donuel 06 Oct 11 - 05:57 PM
GUEST,999 06 Oct 11 - 06:56 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Oct 11 - 07:06 PM
GUEST,999 06 Oct 11 - 07:30 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Oct 11 - 07:38 PM
dick greenhaus 06 Oct 11 - 08:18 PM
GUEST,999 06 Oct 11 - 10:01 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Oct 11 - 10:34 PM
Songwronger 06 Oct 11 - 10:36 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Oct 11 - 10:47 PM
Songwronger 06 Oct 11 - 11:29 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 Oct 11 - 01:11 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 07 Oct 11 - 03:54 AM
Little Hawk 07 Oct 11 - 03:55 AM
GUEST,999 07 Oct 11 - 03:57 AM
GUEST,TIA 07 Oct 11 - 07:24 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 07 Oct 11 - 07:38 AM
Bobert 07 Oct 11 - 09:22 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 Oct 11 - 10:25 AM
Stilly River Sage 07 Oct 11 - 11:46 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 07 Oct 11 - 11:53 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 07 Oct 11 - 12:02 PM
Bobert 07 Oct 11 - 12:47 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 07 Oct 11 - 02:03 PM
Don Firth 07 Oct 11 - 03:07 PM
GUEST,TIA 07 Oct 11 - 03:58 PM
dick greenhaus 07 Oct 11 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,999 07 Oct 11 - 06:56 PM
dick greenhaus 07 Oct 11 - 08:01 PM
Bobert 07 Oct 11 - 08:11 PM
Suffet 07 Oct 11 - 08:56 PM
Bobert 07 Oct 11 - 09:14 PM
dick greenhaus 07 Oct 11 - 09:37 PM
Don Firth 07 Oct 11 - 09:43 PM
Bobert 07 Oct 11 - 09:45 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 08 Oct 11 - 12:22 AM
akenaton 08 Oct 11 - 03:23 AM
akenaton 08 Oct 11 - 03:40 AM
akenaton 08 Oct 11 - 03:50 AM
Bobert 08 Oct 11 - 09:25 AM
Greg F. 08 Oct 11 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,999 08 Oct 11 - 10:37 AM
dick greenhaus 08 Oct 11 - 11:01 AM
pdq 08 Oct 11 - 11:02 AM
kendall 08 Oct 11 - 11:37 AM
Bobert 08 Oct 11 - 11:39 AM
Suffet 08 Oct 11 - 02:30 PM
Janie 08 Oct 11 - 02:40 PM
Suffet 08 Oct 11 - 06:07 PM
Greg F. 08 Oct 11 - 06:32 PM
dick greenhaus 08 Oct 11 - 06:36 PM
Bobert 08 Oct 11 - 07:27 PM
Suffet 08 Oct 11 - 07:50 PM
GUEST,999 08 Oct 11 - 07:52 PM
Bobert 08 Oct 11 - 08:01 PM
Janie 09 Oct 11 - 12:17 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 09 Oct 11 - 12:46 AM
michaelr 09 Oct 11 - 12:47 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Oct 11 - 01:43 AM
akenaton 09 Oct 11 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,999 09 Oct 11 - 07:42 AM
dick greenhaus 09 Oct 11 - 09:13 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 09 Oct 11 - 09:38 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Oct 11 - 10:07 AM
Bobert 09 Oct 11 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Oct 11 - 10:36 AM
Little Hawk 09 Oct 11 - 11:10 AM
Suffet 09 Oct 11 - 11:12 AM
Bobert 09 Oct 11 - 08:19 PM
gnu 09 Oct 11 - 09:55 PM
Bobert 09 Oct 11 - 10:03 PM
Suffet 09 Oct 11 - 10:30 PM
freda underhill 09 Oct 11 - 10:43 PM
freda underhill 09 Oct 11 - 11:00 PM
Bobert 09 Oct 11 - 11:06 PM
Etan 10 Oct 11 - 12:21 AM
Sawzaw 10 Oct 11 - 12:32 AM
Don Firth 10 Oct 11 - 02:20 AM
akenaton 10 Oct 11 - 06:32 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Oct 11 - 07:44 AM
GUEST 10 Oct 11 - 09:04 AM
ollaimh 10 Oct 11 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 10 Oct 11 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Oct 11 - 12:15 PM
akenaton 10 Oct 11 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,999 10 Oct 11 - 01:39 PM
Bobert 10 Oct 11 - 01:53 PM
Bobert 10 Oct 11 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 10 Oct 11 - 02:07 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 10 Oct 11 - 03:04 PM
pdq 10 Oct 11 - 03:35 PM
Little Hawk 10 Oct 11 - 04:06 PM
Bobert 10 Oct 11 - 06:09 PM
Don Firth 10 Oct 11 - 06:37 PM
GUEST,TIA 10 Oct 11 - 07:20 PM
Bobert 10 Oct 11 - 07:27 PM
GUEST,TIA 10 Oct 11 - 07:40 PM
Bobert 10 Oct 11 - 07:46 PM
gnu 10 Oct 11 - 07:54 PM
Little Hawk 11 Oct 11 - 12:03 AM
Bobert 11 Oct 11 - 09:11 AM
Suffet 11 Oct 11 - 09:36 AM
Sawzaw 11 Oct 11 - 09:37 AM
GUEST,999 -- IMPORTANT READ, IMO. 11 Oct 11 - 09:51 AM
GUEST,999 11 Oct 11 - 10:02 AM
Jeri 11 Oct 11 - 10:27 AM
Bobert 11 Oct 11 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,999 11 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM
Jeri 11 Oct 11 - 10:44 AM
Jeri 11 Oct 11 - 10:56 AM
ollaimh 11 Oct 11 - 12:11 PM
Stringsinger 11 Oct 11 - 12:12 PM
Stringsinger 11 Oct 11 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 11 Oct 11 - 12:46 PM
Bobert 11 Oct 11 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 11 Oct 11 - 02:57 PM
Don Firth 11 Oct 11 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,999 11 Oct 11 - 04:02 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Oct 11 - 04:52 PM
akenaton 11 Oct 11 - 04:58 PM
Bobert 11 Oct 11 - 05:10 PM
Greg F. 11 Oct 11 - 05:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Oct 11 - 05:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Oct 11 - 05:40 PM
Bobert 11 Oct 11 - 05:54 PM
Greg F. 11 Oct 11 - 06:20 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Oct 11 - 06:23 PM
Bobert 11 Oct 11 - 06:28 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Oct 11 - 06:43 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Oct 11 - 07:00 PM
Bobert 11 Oct 11 - 07:20 PM
Greg F. 11 Oct 11 - 08:02 PM
Greg F. 11 Oct 11 - 08:05 PM
Bobert 11 Oct 11 - 08:06 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Oct 11 - 08:40 PM
Bobert 11 Oct 11 - 08:51 PM
dick greenhaus 11 Oct 11 - 09:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Oct 11 - 09:58 PM
Greg F. 11 Oct 11 - 10:06 PM
Bobert 11 Oct 11 - 10:12 PM
Don Firth 11 Oct 11 - 11:06 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Oct 11 - 11:55 PM
GUEST,999 12 Oct 11 - 12:15 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Oct 11 - 12:22 AM
Don Firth 12 Oct 11 - 12:29 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Oct 11 - 12:39 AM
Don Firth 12 Oct 11 - 12:57 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Oct 11 - 02:09 AM
Joe Offer 12 Oct 11 - 02:32 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Oct 11 - 02:36 AM
akenaton 12 Oct 11 - 03:16 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Oct 11 - 03:38 AM
GUEST,999 12 Oct 11 - 07:22 AM
Greg F. 12 Oct 11 - 08:47 AM
GUEST 12 Oct 11 - 10:14 AM
akenaton 12 Oct 11 - 12:29 PM
Little Hawk 12 Oct 11 - 12:35 PM
GUEST,Songbob 12 Oct 11 - 12:44 PM
Don Firth 12 Oct 11 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,999 12 Oct 11 - 01:57 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 12 Oct 11 - 02:34 PM
Little Hawk 12 Oct 11 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,999 12 Oct 11 - 03:04 PM
GUEST 12 Oct 11 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 12 Oct 11 - 03:29 PM
Greg F. 12 Oct 11 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,999 12 Oct 11 - 05:55 PM
Don Firth 12 Oct 11 - 06:42 PM
Don Firth 12 Oct 11 - 06:51 PM
Greg F. 12 Oct 11 - 06:55 PM
Don Firth 12 Oct 11 - 07:01 PM
Bobert 12 Oct 11 - 07:56 PM
freda underhill 12 Oct 11 - 08:13 PM
Greg F. 12 Oct 11 - 08:19 PM
Don Firth 12 Oct 11 - 08:29 PM
Little Hawk 12 Oct 11 - 08:51 PM
Don Firth 12 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM
Bobert 12 Oct 11 - 09:18 PM
GUEST 12 Oct 11 - 09:28 PM
GUEST,999 12 Oct 11 - 09:29 PM
Bobert 12 Oct 11 - 09:35 PM
GUEST,999 12 Oct 11 - 09:38 PM
Bobert 12 Oct 11 - 09:44 PM
Don Firth 12 Oct 11 - 09:46 PM
Bobert 12 Oct 11 - 09:57 PM
GUEST,99 12 Oct 11 - 10:16 PM
GUEST,TIA 12 Oct 11 - 11:59 PM
Suffet 13 Oct 11 - 06:21 AM
Bobert 13 Oct 11 - 09:17 AM
dick greenhaus 13 Oct 11 - 02:14 PM
gnu 13 Oct 11 - 02:20 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Oct 11 - 06:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Oct 11 - 07:20 PM
Greg F. 13 Oct 11 - 08:19 PM
Little Hawk 13 Oct 11 - 08:24 PM
Suffet 13 Oct 11 - 08:27 PM
Suffet 13 Oct 11 - 08:35 PM
GUEST,999 13 Oct 11 - 08:41 PM
Jeri 13 Oct 11 - 09:03 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Oct 11 - 09:14 PM
GUEST,999 13 Oct 11 - 09:22 PM
Don Firth 13 Oct 11 - 11:23 PM
GUEST,999 14 Oct 11 - 04:46 AM
GUEST,999 14 Oct 11 - 09:13 AM
Greg F. 14 Oct 11 - 09:31 AM
Donuel 14 Oct 11 - 11:57 AM
Greg F. 14 Oct 11 - 12:15 PM
Jack Campin 14 Oct 11 - 05:27 PM
ollaimh 14 Oct 11 - 10:15 PM
GUEST,999 14 Oct 11 - 11:54 PM
akenaton 15 Oct 11 - 03:36 AM
Don Firth 15 Oct 11 - 04:40 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Oct 11 - 06:08 AM
Bobert 15 Oct 11 - 09:38 AM
akenaton 15 Oct 11 - 10:27 AM
GUEST,999 15 Oct 11 - 11:47 AM
bobad 15 Oct 11 - 12:45 PM
Don Firth 15 Oct 11 - 02:40 PM
Bobert 15 Oct 11 - 06:58 PM
Don Firth 15 Oct 11 - 07:28 PM
Bobert 15 Oct 11 - 08:00 PM
Don Firth 15 Oct 11 - 08:28 PM
Bobert 15 Oct 11 - 08:34 PM
freda underhill 16 Oct 11 - 12:33 AM
ollaimh 16 Oct 11 - 12:49 AM
akenaton 16 Oct 11 - 04:01 AM
Don Firth 16 Oct 11 - 06:14 AM
GUEST,999 16 Oct 11 - 07:39 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Oct 11 - 09:36 AM
bobad 16 Oct 11 - 11:08 AM
Songwronger 16 Oct 11 - 08:52 PM
GUEST,999 17 Oct 11 - 01:04 AM
GUEST,999 17 Oct 11 - 01:26 AM
Lox 17 Oct 11 - 11:32 AM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 17 Oct 11 - 11:39 AM
Lox 17 Oct 11 - 01:33 PM
Bobert 17 Oct 11 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,999 17 Oct 11 - 06:07 PM
dick greenhaus 17 Oct 11 - 07:04 PM
Bobert 17 Oct 11 - 07:22 PM
Don Firth 17 Oct 11 - 08:24 PM
dick greenhaus 17 Oct 11 - 08:47 PM
Bobert 17 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM
ollaimh 17 Oct 11 - 10:05 PM
Songwronger 17 Oct 11 - 10:24 PM
GUEST,999 17 Oct 11 - 10:39 PM
Little Hawk 17 Oct 11 - 11:28 PM
Don Firth 18 Oct 11 - 12:54 AM
Lox 18 Oct 11 - 04:52 AM
Bobert 18 Oct 11 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,999 18 Oct 11 - 11:07 AM
dick greenhaus 18 Oct 11 - 11:49 AM
Lox 18 Oct 11 - 11:50 AM
Lox 18 Oct 11 - 11:56 AM
dick greenhaus 18 Oct 11 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,999 18 Oct 11 - 01:30 PM
Little Hawk 18 Oct 11 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,999 18 Oct 11 - 02:48 PM
akenaton 18 Oct 11 - 03:00 PM
Don Firth 18 Oct 11 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,999 18 Oct 11 - 03:55 PM
Little Hawk 18 Oct 11 - 03:55 PM
dick greenhaus 18 Oct 11 - 04:49 PM
Bobert 18 Oct 11 - 05:21 PM
akenaton 18 Oct 11 - 06:11 PM
Lox 18 Oct 11 - 06:44 PM
Little Hawk 18 Oct 11 - 07:16 PM
Lox 18 Oct 11 - 07:24 PM
Don Firth 18 Oct 11 - 10:04 PM
GUEST,999 18 Oct 11 - 10:50 PM
Songwronger 18 Oct 11 - 11:30 PM
Lox 19 Oct 11 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Oct 11 - 07:38 AM
bobad 19 Oct 11 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Oct 11 - 09:08 AM
Bobert 19 Oct 11 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Oct 11 - 09:25 AM
Greg F. 19 Oct 11 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Oct 11 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,999 19 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Oct 11 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,999 19 Oct 11 - 11:33 AM
akenaton 19 Oct 11 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Oct 11 - 11:56 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Oct 11 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Oct 11 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,999 19 Oct 11 - 02:01 PM
Little Hawk 19 Oct 11 - 04:15 PM
Little Hawk 19 Oct 11 - 04:23 PM
GUEST,999 19 Oct 11 - 04:38 PM
Little Hawk 19 Oct 11 - 04:43 PM
Bobert 19 Oct 11 - 05:11 PM
pdq 19 Oct 11 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,999 19 Oct 11 - 05:55 PM
Bobert 19 Oct 11 - 05:57 PM
Lox 19 Oct 11 - 06:07 PM
Little Hawk 19 Oct 11 - 07:46 PM
Bobert 19 Oct 11 - 08:12 PM
Don Firth 19 Oct 11 - 08:14 PM
Bobert 19 Oct 11 - 08:23 PM
Little Hawk 19 Oct 11 - 08:30 PM
Bobert 19 Oct 11 - 08:42 PM
Don Firth 19 Oct 11 - 09:01 PM
Bobert 19 Oct 11 - 09:06 PM
Little Hawk 19 Oct 11 - 11:14 PM
Songwronger 19 Oct 11 - 11:47 PM
Don Firth 20 Oct 11 - 12:16 AM
Don Firth 20 Oct 11 - 12:34 AM
Songwronger 20 Oct 11 - 12:51 AM
Little Hawk 20 Oct 11 - 02:00 AM
akenaton 20 Oct 11 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,999 20 Oct 11 - 04:18 AM
Greg F. 20 Oct 11 - 08:46 AM
Greg F. 20 Oct 11 - 08:52 AM
Bobert 20 Oct 11 - 08:55 AM
Bobert 20 Oct 11 - 09:15 AM
Lox 20 Oct 11 - 09:25 AM
Bobert 20 Oct 11 - 09:28 AM
Lox 20 Oct 11 - 09:29 AM
pdq 20 Oct 11 - 10:40 AM
GUEST,999 20 Oct 11 - 10:45 AM
pdq 20 Oct 11 - 10:50 AM
Sawzaw 20 Oct 11 - 11:07 AM
GUEST,999 20 Oct 11 - 11:24 AM
Greg F. 20 Oct 11 - 01:06 PM
Sawzaw 20 Oct 11 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,999 20 Oct 11 - 01:59 PM
Little Hawk 20 Oct 11 - 03:07 PM
gnu 20 Oct 11 - 03:15 PM
Little Hawk 20 Oct 11 - 03:21 PM
Don Firth 20 Oct 11 - 03:23 PM
Greg F. 20 Oct 11 - 03:26 PM
Little Hawk 20 Oct 11 - 03:29 PM
akenaton 20 Oct 11 - 03:39 PM
Lox 20 Oct 11 - 04:25 PM
Lox 20 Oct 11 - 04:29 PM
GUEST,999 20 Oct 11 - 04:50 PM
Greg F. 20 Oct 11 - 06:11 PM
Little Hawk 20 Oct 11 - 06:58 PM
Bobert 20 Oct 11 - 07:14 PM
Bobert 20 Oct 11 - 08:53 PM
Little Hawk 20 Oct 11 - 09:44 PM
Songwronger 20 Oct 11 - 10:02 PM
Bobert 20 Oct 11 - 10:23 PM
GUEST,999 20 Oct 11 - 11:27 PM
Songwronger 20 Oct 11 - 11:52 PM
Don Firth 21 Oct 11 - 01:19 AM
Bobert 21 Oct 11 - 08:51 AM
GUEST,999 21 Oct 11 - 10:04 AM
pdq 21 Oct 11 - 10:10 AM
pdq 21 Oct 11 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,John from Kemsing 21 Oct 11 - 10:40 AM
GUEST,999 21 Oct 11 - 11:14 AM
Bobert 21 Oct 11 - 11:58 AM
GUEST,999 21 Oct 11 - 12:41 PM
Lox 21 Oct 11 - 01:08 PM
Lox 21 Oct 11 - 01:10 PM
Sawzaw 21 Oct 11 - 01:12 PM
pdq 21 Oct 11 - 01:46 PM
pdq 21 Oct 11 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,TIA 21 Oct 11 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,999 21 Oct 11 - 03:14 PM
Don Firth 21 Oct 11 - 03:44 PM
Bobert 21 Oct 11 - 05:14 PM
Stringsinger 21 Oct 11 - 08:45 PM
Bobert 21 Oct 11 - 08:48 PM
GUEST,999 21 Oct 11 - 08:54 PM
Stringsinger 22 Oct 11 - 10:16 AM
Bobert 22 Oct 11 - 10:25 PM
gnu 22 Oct 11 - 11:06 PM
Bobert 22 Oct 11 - 11:36 PM
dick greenhaus 23 Oct 11 - 12:55 AM
GUEST,999 23 Oct 11 - 03:14 AM
GUEST 23 Oct 11 - 08:12 AM
dick greenhaus 23 Oct 11 - 11:39 AM
pdq 23 Oct 11 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,999 23 Oct 11 - 02:05 PM
pdq 23 Oct 11 - 02:45 PM
Don Firth 23 Oct 11 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,999 23 Oct 11 - 03:01 PM
Bobert 23 Oct 11 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 24 Oct 11 - 03:48 AM
Lox 24 Oct 11 - 06:03 AM
Stringsinger 24 Oct 11 - 11:25 AM
dick greenhaus 24 Oct 11 - 01:24 PM
GUEST,999 24 Oct 11 - 01:43 PM
Amos 24 Oct 11 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,TIA 24 Oct 11 - 02:13 PM
Don Firth 24 Oct 11 - 05:14 PM
Greg F. 24 Oct 11 - 05:46 PM
Bobert 24 Oct 11 - 05:48 PM
Songwronger 24 Oct 11 - 06:23 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Oct 11 - 06:28 PM
Songwronger 24 Oct 11 - 06:36 PM
Bobert 24 Oct 11 - 07:32 PM
Songwronger 24 Oct 11 - 08:24 PM
Lox 24 Oct 11 - 08:39 PM
Bobert 24 Oct 11 - 08:41 PM
Songwronger 24 Oct 11 - 08:54 PM
Bobert 24 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM
Lox 24 Oct 11 - 09:15 PM
Lox 24 Oct 11 - 09:19 PM
Bobert 24 Oct 11 - 09:21 PM
Greg F. 24 Oct 11 - 09:22 PM
Songwronger 24 Oct 11 - 09:27 PM
Bobert 24 Oct 11 - 09:30 PM
GUEST,999 24 Oct 11 - 09:48 PM
Bobert 24 Oct 11 - 10:12 PM
Greg F. 25 Oct 11 - 09:04 AM
Lox 25 Oct 11 - 01:06 PM
Bobert 25 Oct 11 - 01:17 PM
Stringsinger 25 Oct 11 - 01:36 PM
Bobert 25 Oct 11 - 01:45 PM
Stringsinger 25 Oct 11 - 01:53 PM
Bobert 25 Oct 11 - 02:07 PM
Don Firth 25 Oct 11 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,999 25 Oct 11 - 02:50 PM
Don Firth 25 Oct 11 - 04:25 PM
Bobert 25 Oct 11 - 04:41 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Oct 11 - 06:15 PM
Bobert 25 Oct 11 - 07:17 PM
Lox 25 Oct 11 - 08:32 PM
Bobert 25 Oct 11 - 08:36 PM
Don Firth 25 Oct 11 - 09:11 PM
Songwronger 25 Oct 11 - 09:15 PM
Don Firth 25 Oct 11 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,999 25 Oct 11 - 09:22 PM
GUEST,999 25 Oct 11 - 09:24 PM
Bobert 25 Oct 11 - 09:36 PM
Don Firth 25 Oct 11 - 09:49 PM
Lox 25 Oct 11 - 10:05 PM
Suffet 25 Oct 11 - 10:26 PM
GUEST,999 25 Oct 11 - 10:44 PM
GUEST,TIA 25 Oct 11 - 11:19 PM
GUEST,TIA 25 Oct 11 - 11:22 PM
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Subject: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 07:31 PM

Well, well, well...

Looks as if the "General Assembly" is breaking thru the BIG MEDIA blackballing...

Good...

Anyone have current info, please add it until we start getting even more thru the news embargo...

Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 08:03 PM

Personally, I've been following this on cnn.com and hadn't noticed any embargo. There was a very peaceful support march here in Albuquerque yesterday; no streets blocked so nobody arrested.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 08:31 PM

Until just 2 days ago night not one of the BIG THREE (CBS, ABC or NBC) covered it... That's a full force embargo...

Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM

Only if you watch TV, I guess. The web versions of the print media have had it covered pretty well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 09:10 PM

Nothing real in the "liberal" Washington Post until Thursday... 2 weeks after it bagan... Maybe Page A-17. I donno... I read it on line...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 11:15 PM

NPR has had several articles. There is another thread that has been discussing this for a week or more. Here is the NYPD Police Brutality - or not? thread.

It sounds like it has taken a little while but people have caught the peaceful tone and it is growing.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: EBarnacle
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 08:51 AM

Could this be the analog of the 60's anti war movement?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 01:37 PM

Copycat in Toronto Bay Street. Receiving more coverage than it is worth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 02:33 PM

They are in Boston too. About time!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 04:14 PM

You might want to read Al Jazeera's spin on thigs - they see this tied into the Arab Spring. I can't find the NPR story I heard this morning, but here's a link to their coverage.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 04:28 PM

I saw copies of the wall street journal online - the first stated that police had forced protesters on to the bridge where they then arrested them ... for being on the bridge ... this tallied with eye witness testimony ...

a later version, 20 minutes to be precise, omitted the police involvement in the move onto the bridge.

Corporate Media being economical with the truth ....

Blocking traffic? - only because thats where the police led them.

Police brutality has been an issue and i've been seeing a lot of reports about it over the last week or so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 05:33 PM

from Wash. Post...Sept.25


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 05:38 PM

It is the American Spring... And a logical reaction to the corporate brown shirt Tea Party... It's about time... Have to check out what's happening locally...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 05:41 PM

CNN has also covered this from this beginning. And today it was one of their top stories.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 05:42 PM

Why was it not on all front pages from the beginning? Perhaps there were other things in the world that needed the space. I don't assume that my idea of the "crucial news of the day" is shared by everyone. I use many sources for news...and pick what I want to read.

   Youu can get a pretty good idea of the range at http://news.google.com/


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 07:31 PM

I was disappointed to see the usual liberal attention seekers coming out to support this movement. Michael Moore, Sarandon, others. The media will now twist this into a "liberal" answer to the Tea Party.

The Tea Party started out as a true grassroots movement but was soon co-opted by the Republicans. The Democrats will now do the same to the Occupy Wall Street movement. This is how the people in power remain in power, by seizing grassroots movements and polarizing.

A more promising movement is the "Occupy the Fed" thing. Where the Occupy Wall Street movement is diffuse and non-specific, the Fed approach has true purpose.

Hopefully, after the media finishes dividing people into the the Democratic/Wall Street and the Republican/Tea Party factions, both will be able to focus on the Fed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Etan
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 08:39 PM

I was with Occupy Wall Street on Saturday and Sunday, and I took part in the march across the bridge. It was a setup. I thought we were being allowed (and directed) to cross the bridge on the roadway. Luckily, I got away before they finished putting up the nets. NY Times reporters on the ground agreed with my view of events.

If you have questions that I can answer, I will.

BTW: I've brought my banjo down during good weather. My new version of "White House Blues" was well received. I've been talking to a few people here about creating an updated "Which Side Are You On". Banjos are great for playing louder than traffic noise, but shouting lyrics over it all is a bit tough on the throat.

If you are in the metro New York area, let's get together for some radical picking and singing this coming weekend. PM me with your email address if you would like to arrange things.

-- Etan


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 10:14 PM

I'm baffled. I know what the 60s an 70s protesters were hoping to achieve, but this one is beyond me. What action (or actions)are they hoping for from Wall Street? Picketing Congess would seem to be more to the point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 10:22 PM

This is what grassroots look like, Dick... There are a number of issues that all seem to agree on... Wall Street's risk being socialized while every one else twisting in the wind, for starters...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 10:22 PM

Songwronger, the only place we differ on our view regarding the whole thing is this: the Tea Party never WAS a grassroots movement. It always had big bucks behind it.

I expect the Dems will do their best to co-opt this response. However, I think people are really Fed up, Tea'd off and the more it spreads the better off we all will be. I don't want a damned thing to do with either main party. I feel that way about this country's main parties, also. Too much bullsh#t for far too long from all of them.

##########################################

Etan: please post the lyrics to your version of WHB here, would ya? Love to read them. (S'what I forgot to say earlier.)

B


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:23 AM

I looked at all the visual 'news' media footage I could check out, and this is what I came up with....

..a bunch of young punks, who don't know jack shit about what they are doing, but have been whipped up by some manipulating shills, pretending to care. Anything to get Americans to immolate, the uprisings we see on the news, in the Mideast, and turn against each other, and that will allow the government to crack down, on us all, implementing all the police state crap, that they've just been waiting for an excuse, to do, for a long fucking time! THIS IS CONTRIVED...and bullshit!
If they wanted to march, and/or if they knew what they were really marching about, they'd be in Washington!
Most of these little punks look like they haven't even been out of the bathroom, counting their new pubic hairs with tweezers, and experienced anything in life, to even know what they are doing!..
....and any clowns in here, who are supportive of them, aren't spending enough time working on their music...and just want to relive their stupid youth...doing equally stupid bullshit!

Think I was clear, enough?....

Oh, and fuck the 'extension of the Arab Spring' shit! that is more nonsense, to make it appear to be some gigantic wonderful thing..that it isn't!
Peace,
GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 09:49 AM

Hidden deeply in your message, GfS, I seem to detect an indication that you somehow disapprove of the protesters' motives, techniques and basic philosophy, and that you won't be going down to join them. It's SO useful to read a deep, sensitive analysis of the movement with such clearly expressed non-partisan views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:06 AM

You got it, Bill... She's a right winger at heart...

But never mind her...

We have our own chapter up in Charlotte, NC, that is going to meet Saturday at 3:00... I'm scheduled to compete in a regional blues challenge Saturday not too far from the meeting place but don't have my time slot yet... Hopefully I'll be able to do both...

No matter... I will get involved with the Charlotte chapter...

BTW, progressives have been waiting 40 years for something to fire them up that is more comprehensive that the anti-war protests of 2002... This one has a lot of meat 'n 'tators to it and will end up exposing the real problems that unregulated and corrupted capitalism has created... 30 years of working class decline, education decline, infrastructure decline, public health decline, moral decline and increased levels of poverty, infant mortality, unemployment, underemployment and income disparity tells *US* that Reaganomics works only for the corrupt and wealthy...

I have predicted here at Mudcat just what we are seeing... The revolution is "on" and people will see the alternative to the corporate puppet Tea Partiers and see that what is really being said is that what the US is lacking is justice...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:35 AM

GfS: That comment--if it may be interpreted as one--about the Wall Street protesters is quite supercilious.

The people you denigrate are trying. You ain't. End of story.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 11:16 AM

Be sensible guys....America is a deeply conservative nation, and that is what makes its people strong.

A collection of new agers and students will never rock the systen no matter how bad a state it is in.....cannon fodder!

You want to change the system, you have to carry the MAJORITY with you ....Sarah was your best chance, but you blew it....maybe you dont really want it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 11:38 AM

America isn't one thing, Ake, you're seeing the corporate outwardly propelled face conveyed by mainstream media. If you lived here you'd know that.

GfS, if you recall, the first hits on Sept 11 were on the financial district in New York City. Though they also targeted the Pentagon and the White House, they saw these as equal. I think the NY movement today makes perfect sense.

Songwronger, the Koch brothers are behind the tea party, just like Richard Mellon Scaife was the one behind the Whitewater "scandal" of the Clinton years. He manufactured it.

Etan, keep reporting, please.

One wonders when MoveOn.org will push out more pages helping this OccupyWallStreet group. It's a natural for them, they're covering it, but I don't see much chatter in their social media. They're probably trying to not make this a left-wing movement because it could be off-putting to some supporters, despite the predictions above.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 01:48 PM

I'm certainly not a Tea Partier nor a supporter of Wall Street's activities, but it seems to me that a protest should have specific objectives, and the protesting should be addressed to those who can help achieve those objectives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 01:50 PM

If any of you have seen the 'protester's' demands, then you'd know, that these are lunatics, stirred up by bigger lunatics....but because it is 'fashionable', to be a lunatic, I guess you think it is quite alright....because being a 'FAR left' lunatic is the only way stupid and ugly people can get ANY attention!...otherwise, you'd just ignore them, and call them a name, and withdraw into your own little lunatic world.
The goal is to create unrest, so the corrupt sons of bitches can crack down on people that normally would be pissed off, at 'crackdowns'. This is contrived to cause a problem, so that a 'solution' can be proposed, and forced upon us.(sorta like the 'Fast and Furious' concoction).
How can people be so blind and stupid, too. At least Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, and Jose Feliciano, we able to develop extraordinary skills, and sensitivities with their blindness....but this other crap, is for the utmost in stupidity!
Lap it up, it's this administration's most effective work!..The answer of course, will be mineral and oil being the standard, for the globalist elite, to trade, and microchips for the populace!....complete with 'termination' micro-processors...and death, if you refuse to take it. Economy should collapse this spring, if all goes as PLANNED!...Hey! Maybe Obama will suspend the elections, and then he can have another chance to extend his 'generosity' for another indeterminate term! ....but wasn't that the point? Then he and his globalist banking buddies will own you all, lock, stock and barrel!.....Oh, wait a minute, you had to sell your barrel to buy water???

GfS
Sounds like fun to me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 01:57 PM

Late in the year for cuckoos, surely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:03 PM

Fascinating!

Everybody's "blind and stupid" except Guest from Sanity.

FROM sanity, indeed!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:04 PM

Some cuckoos are extremely hardy and stay around when they find a place that feeds & tolerates them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:15 PM

Loud sing cuckoo!

Grassroots? Time for fall cleanup.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:57 PM

Q... did ya see the coverage of their chant on Wall Street? "What do we want? We're not really sure! When do we want it? Now!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 03:10 PM

Don 'The Argumentative Know Nothing': "Everybody's "blind and stupid" except Guest from Sanity.
FROM sanity, indeed!!
Don Firth"

Don, there are a lot of people, other than me, who know what you don't see...or what you are not willing to look at.

Enough said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 03:25 PM

Hmm! I thought "Babble-onians" had faded into the mists of history.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 03:27 PM

SRS.....I have a very good friend with dual nationality and an interest in politics.......I know rather more about USA and the national perception than you think.

I think the American (left) would like to see a European/UK social and political model in place.......bad mistake, you have retained individual independence.....you do not see providing for yourself and your family as a penance....you do not believe the world owes you a living.

The American people are truly amazing, they can still show the world the way forward, but not through a trough of socialist/capitalist porage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:05 PM

So Ake, you being an 'outsider looking in', with no personal agenda at stake, would you say the 'left' is being voluntarily ignorant, and therefore vulnerable to manipulative lies?....or am I off base, here?

I'm open.....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:29 PM

No GfS I think you understand the situation well.

The "liberals" are a huge problem, their ideology of evolutionary socialism within the capitalist system is deep rooted, and they are prepared to grasp any straws in the wind to support them.

The election of Mr Obama was a typical example...a nod towards racial equality, but they failed to take on board that their token black man was steeped in Chicago capitalist politics an turned out to be a very divisive figure.....exactly what was planned by the "string pullers"
Change needs unity and in the USA folks will only unite under the banner of independence and good old fashioned common sense, agrass roots movement like the Tea Party could have been the mixing bowl for unity, but the short sighted dogma bound left branded them terrorists and are now reduced to fighting their battles through idealistic kids and wrinkled hippies.

A revolution in America will require a tactical retreat from what is laughingly referred to as "the left".

(Said as one who has marched and sometimes fought on the real left)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:59 PM

It's not surprisin' that they don't know what they want, considerin' they been led astray and fed a diet of useless propaganda and misleadin' commercial BS for their entire lives. You take the average human being now, put him in a forest with no cellphone, and he's totally lost. That speaks for itself, don't it? They been completely disempowered by the crazy social conditions they was born in.

- Chongo

p.s. What they really want is peace of mind and a secure sense of bein' in control of and able to manage their own lives adequately. They also want an honest system in place and a fair break for everyone. How they are gonna get all that remains a mystery...they sure as hell ain't gonna get it from Wall Street or from the stiffs in suits that they elected to govern them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:11 PM

GfS.

Ake.

And a monkey!

(Why are readers of this thread smiling?)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:16 PM

Because they LIKE monkeys! ;-D That's why.

(reminder, though: chimps are not monkeys)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:36 PM

"Occupy Wall Street" Unaired Fox Footage

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:42 PM

Well in the last few post we have had a wide selection of wildlife.
A hawk, a gnu, a chimp and a weasel.
and of course Myself and Sanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:51 PM

Akenaton, As you know, I'm very articulate regarding my position. That being said, I think that your post, in reply to my question to you, ..well..I don't know if I could have said it better myself!
Thank you! Bravo!..and WELL SAID!

Warmest Regards!

Guest from Sanity


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 06:20 PM

"weasel"? Who?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 06:25 PM

It was a stealth weasel. You don't see them coming. You don't see them going.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 06:53 PM

"As you know, I'm very articulate regarding my position."

Not that I've seen. On ANY of the threads you've posted on, GfS. Other than that you hate Obama's guts. You also hate anything vaguely resembling what you consider to be "liberal" (often displaying that you don't really know what the liberal position IS), yet you claim not to be conservative. You just hate everything.

Yet, several times I (and others) have asked you just where you're coming from and you respond with snotty remarks and insults.

"Ain't nothin' in the middle-of-the-road 'cept a yaller stripe and a dead skunk!!"   --Old folk saying.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 06:54 PM

There's a helluva lot of sniping and personal attack muddying the topic of this thread.

The "liberals" are a huge problem, their ideology of evolutionary socialism within the capitalist system is deep rooted, and they are prepared to grasp any straws in the wind to support them.

Ake, the problem in America is that people want all of the services and amenities of an advanced nation (health care, good food, safe drugs, safe roads and bridges, reliable planes, trains, and automobiles, good schools, good teachers, and much more) but they're not willing to pay for it. All of these various state tax revolts and federal GOP attempts to kill agencies and programs are revolting to liberals who understand that everyone has to pay their share, and the government has to lead the way in civil projects using tax dollars. And while mainstream middle class America does pay its taxes, they probably aren't paying as much as they should, and the rich and industry aren't paying any where near their share because of tax loopholes and exceptions, yet they use and impact all of those services and amenities also. The rich ARENT'T making jobs, they're just busy being idle as far as most of the rest of us can tell.

It should be illegal for local politicians to bargain away all tax supports in their communities, offering financial incentives to lure industries to their area. They push the tax burden (for what is now increased demand) onto everyone else to prop up that company, to cover the road and school and hospital taxes industry isn't paying, etc. But many communities do it, hoping that jobs alone and those new taxpayers will be enough to make things alright. It's an absurd way to do business.

The Occupy Wallstreet group may appear disorganized, but the voices we hear are clear, smart, and civil - something lacking in our politics for a long time. They are beginning to be heard as that spontaneous group identifies leaders. Those of you who are dismissing it, and in particular those of you who don't even live in the U.S., yet have such an apparently clear vision of how things should be here, should just sit on it for a while.

More power to them.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 06:58 PM

Oh, come on, Don. He doesn't hate everything. To say so is just foolish hyperbole. GfS has made it plain in a great many posts that he loves music, and has posted numerous links to music videos of the music he loves.

Or she loves. As the case may be.

It is also clear that she (or he) loves his (or her) country...much as the rest of you do. You just can't agree on what to do about it, that's all. You do agree on some of the problems, but you can't seem to get together on solutions.

Mind you, solutions to a mess this big are almost impossible to even find, so I'm not surprised you can't agree on them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 07:55 PM

Little Hawk, I was talking about GfS's POLITICAL position (or lack thereof).

Yes, he/she says he/she loves music, okay. Jolly good! He/she probably also likes filet mignon, going to movies, ice cream, etc., etc.

Loves the country? Odd way of showing it. PERSUASION is undoubtedly the best political tool, but instead of trying to state a position CLEARLY (which he/she has been asked about repeatedly, but repeatedly dodges the issue), he/she responds to any questions or disagreements with attacks on the questioner, loaded with insults about the questioner's intelligence, knowledge, honesty, and toilet habits.

This is not the way to persuade people of the validity of one's position.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 08:08 PM

What Don said...

GfinS says that the Fed should be shut down??? That is a very irresponsible and radical position... When I have questioned her about the ramifications of shutting down the Fed or basic economic theory she seems to have no answers... What she does have when asked to back up her positions with facts is one of two defenses... Attack the questioner or post a music video...

I mean, both can be entertaining but neither show much depth of understanding about some rather basic stuff...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 08:12 PM

There is a great deal of intellectual sympathy with the Wall Street Occupation elsewhere in the country. Will it trickle through to the less acute in the population, those who are victims of Wall Street bankers but who have been convinced or frightened by the GOP into voting for candidates who don't support their best interests, who shill for rich industries and bankers?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:59 PM

Read GfS's remark on Bobert's cat thread, LH, then come back and sing his praises.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 11:12 PM

How can a guy be so 'sensitive' to a cat, and so insensitive to the thousands who are losing their jobs, homes and hope?...and support the one who is expanding wars, fraudulent bailouts, and policies of hardships on this country??
Beats me.
I thought the humor might bring a smile to him...not a nervous breakdown.....but then maybe his cat was a Democrat, too.
GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 11:17 PM

Chinese tacos, GfinS, is an insane and insensitive remark...

Go f yourself...

Bye, again... You really need serious counseling...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 11:24 PM

From Ringo Starr:

.."It don't come easy,
You know it don't come easy.

It don't come easy,
You know it don't come easy.

Got to pay your dues if you wanna sing the blues,
And you know it don't come easy.
You don't have to shout or leap about,
You can even play them easy.

Forget about the past and all your sorrows,
The future won't last,
It will soon be over tomorrow...."

Channel it into your next gig!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 12:51 AM

The cat comment was mean, 999, no doubt about it. Other than that, I have no particular bone to pick with GfS....but if I was determined to go on a personal vendetta against this person (with whom I've had some interesting telephone conversations, and therefore probably know a bit better than the rest of you do)...well, THEN I'm sure that the cat comment alone would be sufficient excuse for me to damn GfS for all eternity. (I'm being satirical when I say that...I don't wish to damn anyone for all eternity)

Anyway I'm not on such a vendetta. I know GfS reasonably well outside of this forum, and I know that although Gfs is not a perfect human being...and did make an insensitive remark about Bobert's cat...that is not the whole story and entirety of who GfS is.

GfS is an interesting character, an original thinker, and cannot be easily defined as the stereotypical rightwing monster that people here mistakenly imagine GfS to be. Not by a long shot.

I trust you know that I am firmly on the political Left, correct? I have been all my life. This does not blind me to gross stupidity and hypocrisy and lazy thinking and blind prejudice and deep dishonesty when it occurs on the Left which it often does..just as it does on the Right, but wearing a different mask of righteous fury. People on the Left are guilty of lazy thinking too...just like people are on the Right. GfS has criticized George Bush and the Bush administration stringently in the past, as well as criticizing Obama and his administration, and the banks, and the major corporations. No one here even notices when GfS criticizes Bush or various other people on the Right...but y'all go nuts when GfS criticizes Obama or the Democrats. Funny thing about that. People only seem to notice when their own ox is being gored.

GfS is not a perfect human devoid of all "sin", but is also not the awful stereotype Right Wing loonie you imagine. Not in the least. I know this from direct experience, accordingly I don't put the absolute worst possible interpretation on whatever GfS happens to say in some post here....but several of you do. And that is why nothing GfS says will ever satisfy you. You don't want to be satisfied, you just want to prove that GfS is the evil person you've decided you want GfS to be...to justify your state of anger.

That's a closed loop, like a snake eating its own tail, nothing good coms of it, and nothing I can say will change it, and I know that...so (shrug) I just wasted a whole bunch of keystrokes, didn't I?

C'est la vie. At least I got to express myself, and that's about as much as anyone here is ever going to get from indulging in their daily bit of hoo-hah on this forum. So my advice is: don't take it all so damn seriously. It'll only cause you a lot of pointless stress if you do. I'd rather be happy than be (supposedly) "right" at the expense of someone else on the other end on an internet connection.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 03:05 AM

I would like to agree with you SRS, but I'm afraid that in the real world, the system (Capitalism) rules....everyone and everything is subserviant.

What we are seeing in the West, is a consequence of unregulated Capitalism......BUT, to serve the purposes of the nation, economic growth must be engendered, and expanded.....for ever.

The number one rule in Capitalism, is that we must keep producing and consuming wealth.
The truth is, that the system has become unsustainable, and will remain so until our standard of living has dropped to a level where we are once again globally competitive.

This of course will be unacceptable to us, our children and possibly grandchildren.
There is no way round this state of affairs, other than to completely reform society....and that is the difficult bit.
All our generation can do is make a start on the road by pointing out the terminal faults and contraditions which have become apparent in our present economic system.

The left needs to make a serious attempt to reach out to the coservative majority, both in the US and the UK and forget about the political dogma which has divided us for so long.

And that means stop pushing social policies which make division inevitable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 03:10 AM

I have never seen a rational post from Fugitive from Sanity, and its posts generally display either absurd disconnects from reality or a total disregard for those who would be harmed by the evils it seems to support.

SRS's recent posts here are however models of good sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 03:11 AM

"Stealth Weasel".......:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 09:41 AM

Stilly has class, insight and brains. She does her homework regarding issues. On more than a few occasions I've messaged her over the years to get her take on stuff, and she's been forthright and honest. I don't always see things her way, but I have always respected her view.

'sides, I ain't gonna argue with no one lives through a Texas heatwave. I can think of easier though not faster ways to meet my maker.

#######################################

My hope is that the Democrats don't get their hands on this protest, because it's never had a thing to do with them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 01:14 PM

Little Hawk: "The cat comment was mean, 999, no doubt about it. Other than that, I have no particular bone to pick with GfS....but if I was determined to go on a personal vendetta against this person (with whom I've had some interesting telephone conversations, and therefore probably know a bit better than the rest of you do)...well, THEN I'm sure that the cat comment alone would be sufficient excuse for me to damn GfS for all eternity. (I'm being satirical when I say that...I don't wish to damn anyone for all eternity)"

Why, It was so 'bad' that Bobert had it taken off the thread, about the cat, and re-posted it!!!.....after it was gone!
It was not intended to be 'mean', but rather to bring a wry grin on his face. Apparently, it wasn't taken that way.....but then, neither was:
"General Electric is planning to move its 115-year-old X-ray division from Waukesha , Wis. , to Beijing . In addition to moving the headquarters, the company will invest $2 billion in China and train more than 65 engineers and create six research centers. This is the same GE that made $5.1 billion in the United States last year. but paid no taxes-the same company that employs more people overseas than it does in the united States .

So let me get this straight. President Obama appointed GE Chairman Jeff Immelt to head his commission on job creation (job czar). Immelt is supposed to help create jobs. I guess the President forgot to tell him in which country he was supposed to be creating those jobs.


If this doesn't show you the total lack of leadership of this President, I don't know what does. Think about it before you buy a GE product.


It really shows the complete take over of our Democratic government by corporates and bankers. Until we reverse the criminal Supreme Court, Citizens United decision, that holds that corporations are people and money is speech, and fund election campaigns with public money, to stop the corporate and banker crooks from corrupting our elected officials, we will continue to be subjected to policies that serve the best interests of the biggest crooks, rather than the people, of this country.

Just so you know, Justices Kennedy, Roberts, Alito, Scalia and Thomas, were the 5 that held for the decision. Justices Stevens, Ginsburg, Breyer and Sotomayor, held against. This decision allows corporations, even foreign owned multinational corporations, from pouring unlimited, unaccounted, and unattributed monies into our political system to influence voters not just in elections, but also in referendums. They can purchase 100's of millions of dollars worth of commercial advertising to promote a candidate or a bill or destroy a candidate or bill.

If any further rigging were required, the above criminal activity can be combined with the fact that we are increasingly adopting electronic voting machines that have been repeatedly and publicly hacked in demonstrations, in as little as 15 minutes. But since the machines themselves are controlled by corporations, the hacking factor is pretty much redundant. No other democratic country uses them, for this reason. Might be worth considering the factors in play, by which we insist on using them.

In short, big money owns us lock, stock and barrel. And if big money determines slaves overseas should do our jobs, then that's the way it's going to be. But don't worry when Americans get desperate enough to work for SFA(Sweet F**k All); then the corporate assholes might just bring some jobs back here.

(As long as this IS the 'Wall Street Protesters...' thread....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 01:26 PM

Good heavens, I thought it was going to be the first - but then it all went pear-shaped.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 01:32 PM

Oh, and there is this:

A few changes I personally would like to see should "We the People" actually get a voice in a land where "corporations are people, my friend" and "money is speech".

1. Public funding of elections.

Take the private and corporate money right out of the equation. Our elected representatives will then be required to work for ALL the American people, and not just for those who have backed and funded their campaigns.

2. Citizens United decision should be revoked.

Corporations are NOT people and money should NOT be entitled to speech, and the 5 Supreme Court judges who supported this corrosive decision should be investigated to see how they or their family members directly benefited from this action.

3. All legislative safeguards that have been dismantled over the last 30 years should be re-examined and exposed to the light of day.

Anti-monopoly legislation and especially Glass-Spiegel (which restricted banks to actual banking practices and prevented them from behaving like drunken sailors at a Las Vegas casino, which we now know was the direct cause of the US and global economic meltdown of 2007) should be updated and reinstated.
We have a total lack of real competition in major areas of our economy, this must be addressed and "too big to fail" eliminated. All legislation that rewards moving American jobs overseas must be revoked and legislation that does the opposite passed. All Free Trade agreements must also be reexamined in the light of saving and recreating American jobs.

4. All monies drained from Social Security and Medicare for other purposes should be refunded and locked in place

Successive governments have siphoned money from these programs to fund other, non productive activities, Engaging in unfunded wars drained much of Social Security, legislation that benefited corporate criminals only, such as Medicare Advantage and Medicare Part D, which were giveaways of taxpayer money to insurance and pharmaceutical corporations, put Medicare in troubled waters (intentionally, to justify eventual privatization). These programs could be put right by a tiny transaction tax on Wall Street trading. Once misappropriated taxpayer funds have been restored to these programs, the accounts should be locked to all purposes except those originally intended.

5. Revoke the Federal Reserve charter.

Our democratically elected government should be responsible for issuing our own legal tender, backed by the "full faith and credit" just as it is now, but without the debt to the bankster gangsters. I would prefer our government, open to oversight and answerable to the people, over a bunch of secretive banksters, with no oversight at all, any day. Could they possibly do worse than a private cabal, that we recently learned, thanks to Sen. Bernie Sanders, had secretly passed out 12 trillion dollars to their international bankster friends, including the Bank of Libya. 12 trillion dollars of unsecured loans, a debt that you and I, the American taxpayer, are on the hook for. Could YOU ever imagine going to your local bank and obtaining an unsecured loan, not likely.

6. Prosecute those responsible.

I believe we still have prosecutors in this country, you have to wonder "why aren't the bankster gangsters who crashed the global economy, and profited obscenely from it, being prosecuted for the demonstrable fraud that they committed?".

Many other good things would naturally follow, for our country and our people, the single, but incredibly difficult act, of prying the corrupting hands of corporate crooks and bankster gangsters, out of our government. A government that was meant to be "Of, By, and For the People", ALL the people, not just the 1% at the top.

We are now at a point where this is doable,not for nothing do polls show that fully 82% of Americans disapprove, 62% of that 82% "strongly disapprove", of the performance of our corrupted congress. (The 14% that approved may suggest just how large a number of Washington lobbyist's are employed by the corporates)"

Hmmm, does that sound 'right wing' or 'left wing'?
Who cares??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 01:33 PM

That happens to some women after 30....


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 01:35 PM

all the best to the folk raising spirits and hope in the states. here in england we can only watch with horror what happens in your country while sickened by the fact that the entire world economy is run for the benefit of a few billionaires, mostly in your country. any voices raised in protest about this deserve all our thanks and support.(by the way, liberal(it means easy-going) in the uk is the default political description of most people. i live in the north (and the same is true of wales and particularly scotland) and can honestly say i have not had more than half a dozen conversations with any right wing or conservative people (far less republican/t party - i am afraid on this size of the pond sees them as weird, greedy and dangerous) in the last 30 years. most of us can see where our interests lie and instinctively understand that the rich and well-connected are engaged in a class war-stealing from ordinary folk the world over. usually, we just moan but let them get on with it -a fightback is long overdue so we aren't all dragged down by the death throes of the capitalist experiment. to the barricades, citizens!
(p.s. for americans -cockermouth is the name of my town - a town as delightful as it sounds)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 01:36 PM

Richard, the connecting reference was linked to the Chinese...as in 'Chinese tacos' and other activities in China, from the corporate Democrats.
Have an apricot.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 01:52 PM

Petecockermouth: "...(by the way, liberal(it means easy-going) in the uk is the default political description of most people."

In this country, 'liberal' no longer means that. Instead, they have been swayed and corrupted, to be supportive of the very billionaires that you have spoken of. So, if one 'attacks' the billionaires, but those billionaires SAY they support the programs of this administration, which in turn are promoting the very thing you pointed out, the 'not-so-bright' 'liberal' common folk, think you are attacking THEM!....no matter how obvious it is that they are duped beyond belief!
Here, the Democrats and Republicans support virtually the same thing, depending on who wraps it in whatever given rhetoric, that they can muster public support for.....long enough for them to en-act bullshit on us all!.....only to find out, that it doesn't work...then they blame it on each other!!!!!
We have become a divided nation, over the corrupt practices of their foul agenda!!!...which is total control over every aspect of our lives, and the stripping away of our freedoms!

Does this make sense to you, from your vantage point?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 04:10 PM

here too there is nothing much to choose between the 2/3 main political parties. both entirely in the pocket of big business, both as likely to support the illegal wars waged in the interests of capitalism. while labour start from the ideal of being on the side of ordinary people their record is shameful, in recent times being 'relaxed' about the wealthy stealing vast amounts from the rest of us while inequality just soars and common decency and solidarity is degraded. the conservatives do not even try to pretend they are working for everyone -they just supervise the acclumation of vast amounts of capital to big business and individuals. evil scum. anyway, i'm off down the pub

peace and love and revolution

pete


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 04:28 PM

"Liberal" has different and pretty specific meanings in different contexts.

As to FFS's second attempt at a rational post
1. Agreed. Electoral reform should have been on the agenda last erection but only Kucinich went near it.
2. Yes, Citizens' United is probably wrong. Disclosure is the key, and you haven't got it.
3. Largely agreed. Maybe not all reinstated, but certainly considered for re-application. Funding of those voting for the repeals should be investigated - I suspect fraud and bribery. After the first sentence you wander off into dangerous realms, however.
4. You need a welfare state. What you propose is not enough, but it might be a start. I don't know how to lock it save by amendment of the constitution.
5. Unclear to me
6. Yes.

However, you overlook something even more vital - control of the media. The FCC balance requirement should be reinstated and applied to print and internet media too (excluding nutters like creationists) and there should be controls on concentration of media power - the present media are the reasons so many Americans are morons and vote for moronic things: they have been assiduously trained to be so. It is not the people, it is not the genetics, it is the reservation of decent education for the rich and accurate information for those already privileged.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 05:23 PM

The Wall Street protests are only the rumble of thunder off in the distance. The storm is definitely on its way, and, unlike the Tea Party, it is independent of the current corrupt political parties.   CLICKY #1.

This is also worth a look. A sort of "Manifesto" of those involved in the protests.   CLICKY #2. Click on the arrow to the right of each heading for further details.

This has to have something going for it because it is already being viciously attacked on Right Wing web sites as "Socialism!!" and "This would ruin the country!"

But—measures like this are fundamentally how FDR dug the country out of the Great Depression back in the Thirties. And this, of course, makes the Right Wing barf on their shoes because they've worked all this time to rescind the various measures and regulations that FDR put in place to end the Depression and prevent a recurrence. But the Right Wing wants to do the very same things that brought about the Depression in the first place. And the measure of their success is that they've managed to bring us to our present predicament.

"Those who will not learn from history. . . ."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 06:02 PM

Good post, Don.

I heard today that various unions are adding their voices to it, but unfortunately some Democrats are also. I hope they are there as people, not Democrats.

I saw the same thing after McCarthy won the first primary in New Hampshire. All of a sudden Kennedy's people saw a safe ride. They hadn't had the cajones to do it first, but they were happy to wait and see what happened with Eugene. That, imo, was simply opportunism. I hope that even if the Dems try to co-opt this, that the protests continue anyway.

ymmv


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 06:16 PM

Buddy Roemer, former Louisiana governor and current Republican presidential candidate who is being blackballed by the media and the Republican Party has endorsed Occupy Wall Street...

BTW, I will be attending the Charlotte, NC "Occupy Wall Street" assembly this Saturday...

As for the other Repubs dissing the movement??? That's a good thing... It would worry me if they weren't...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 06:17 PM

La palabra (the word) is "cojones", hombre. You say "cajones" een Mexico and they will laugh! CO-HO-NES!!!

As in...."Breeng me hees cojones!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 06:20 PM

Great, Bobert. But remember, songs don't stop projectiles or nightsticks.

Course, bangin' one of them sticks against your head would be like taking coal to Newcastle.

You be careful. Y'ain't 20 anymore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 09:20 PM

Don: "The Wall Street protests are only the rumble of thunder off in the distance. The storm is definitely on its way, and, unlike the Tea Party, it is independent of the current corrupt political parties.   CLICKY #1"

THAT is an absolutely FALSE statement. 'Move On', 'SEIU' and the Teamsters, are funding this. Who is 'Move On' and 'SEIU'?....George Soros!!!..He is the Koch Bros. equivalent, to the 'left'....even though he, himself, is a rabid capitalist!

More hypocrisy, and smoke and mirrors.

petecockermouth: "here too there is nothing much to choose between the 2/3 main political parties. both entirely in the pocket of big business, both as likely to support the illegal wars waged in the interests of capitalism."

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!! Same thing, on THIS side of the pond!...but at least YOU GET IT!!!!! The 'groupies' of the 'left' absolutely DO NOT see it!....and that's why there is such uninformed, semi-literate blathering going on here!!!

(They just hate it when I point that out to them!)

GfS

Regards!
GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 09:56 PM

Thanks, brucie, but I've been waiting almost 4 decades for this... If they wanta bust on my head then that's the way it goes... Bust on it... It been busted on before... I don't gibe a shit... If my 92 year old mom could walk better than she'd offer her head for bustin', too...

I mean, we progressives are always gonna offer our heads for bustin' if at the end of the day we get justice and we have moved humanity forward...

Personally, I don't gibe a flyin' fig what they want to do to me... Been here an' done this...

I can't wait until Saturday... Just don't break my hands 'cause I gotta a blues challenge on Sunday...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 10:04 PM

What's a 'blues challenge' ??

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 10:20 PM

Blues challenge: every regional blues society does an annual "challenge" to see who gets to represent them in Memphis for the International Blues Challenge (IBC) in February...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 10:28 PM

Well Bobert, as I suggested to you before, channel the death of your kitty, into the blues performance....it should come off well, cuz you be singin' da blues...with feelin'!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 10:28 PM

well .... then the best of luck to ya Bobert.

biLL ... :~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 10:30 PM

THAT is an absolutely FALSE statement. 'Move On', 'SEIU' and the Teamsters, are funding this. Who is 'Move On' and 'SEIU'?....George Soros!!!..He is the Koch Bros. equivalent, to the 'left'....even though he, himself, is a rabid capitalist!

GfS, you can't see that Soros looks out for the little guy, while the Koch brothers look out for big industry and millionaires?

(They just hate it when I point that out to them!)

No, I think what they don't like is your choice of words and your tone of voice.

You notice how polite the Occupy Wall Street folks are? Let it be an example to you.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 10:34 PM

Thank you, Magz.... What the Tea Party mentality folks don't understand is that OWS are folks who understand non-violence... The Tea Party??? Rednecks who don't get it...

We'll win...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 11:41 PM

SRS, My tone of voice??????????????????????
Maybe its the tone you think I have, but that's all in your head..or how others have projected what that 'tone' is. I'm just letters on a screen...and Soros is NOT out for the 'little guy'. He is out for POWER, and using the 'little guy' to get it! Ask any Brit about how the pound was devalued...and who did it.

GfS

P.S. I misspoke earlier, it wasn't the Teamsters, it was the UAW, and the Teacher's Union,(AFT)...and this protesting, though the reasons may seem justified, the list of demands is completely nonsensical. if you'd like to go through them, I can easily show you why they don't make sense...(Though you may be able to do that by yourself). Check them out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 12:31 AM

GfS - your word choices make the tone very clear. Very clear.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 01:59 AM

The unions are NOT the Democratic Party. Nor is George Soros, or for that matter, Warren Buffet. Not ALL billionaires are indifferent to the problems of those on the lower end of the financial spectrum. Bill Gates, no matter what you may think of Microsoft, has given away many billions since he got married and Melinda humanized him. Warren Buffet complaining that he's not being taxed enough. Ted Turner some years back gave away a third of his billions, saying "NOBODY needs THAT much money!"

The Wall Street protests WERE sparked through the internet and encouraged by organizations such as Move On and People for the American Way. Progression groups. This sort of political communication is the wave of the future.

That's the problem with those poor sods who are unable to think in anything but pigeon holes. That's the unmistakable mark of a--well, that's the "B-word," and Joe doesn't like it when people use it. So I won't.

Even if that's exactly the case.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 04:01 AM

I've been through this many times in my long membership of the Communist Party.

You know what......It just makes you feel better, a minority(and you will always be a minority) standing up to injustice, but in reality it just makes matters worse, entrenching opinions on both sides....and that always means "worse" for the poor and underpriviliged.
The only way in which society can be changed in a meaningful way is through unity and in our case that means we shall almost certainly never see it....but our grandchildren might!
It means finding common ground with the people who are not politically motivated, who want a quiet life, a reasonable standard of living, a little freedom and a sensible lifestyle.

This may come as news to you guys, but the grass roots folks of America and Britian have no taste for Martyrdom..


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 08:17 AM

This may come as news to you, ake...and Gfs...but what you are witnessing here is a Change, not finanical, or even political, but a whole Change of Life.

I've been trying to tell folks for YEARS that the world was heading for this, but everyone thought I was nuts..

This is NOT a Recession. This is a Global Meltdown. It is not going to get better, go back to 'normal' for normality is no longer out there, at present..

The financial systems have been screwed, not just by the Corrupt Corporate Bastards and Bankers, but also by The Quants, the Physicists who have taken over Wall Street...They have now created financial systems SO complicated that only they understand them, and at times, even they struggle to do so..The system has been imploding for years and has now reached Mega-Crisis Point.

So, where does that leave us?

Well, in Deep Shite, in many ways...and it's going to be rough, VERY rough, I fear, but....the Silver Lining is The Young People who are out there now Occupying Wall St and a whole lotta other places....

They now have an anger SO deep, a determination SO strong to turn this planet around that they WILL succeed. It may take a while, for these guys have trillions to protect themselves with, but soon they'll find their money counts for nothing.

People are sick and tired of it all. Their Corporate Bubble has burst bigtime...and the moment they raise interest rates, which of course, they WILL, putting millions at risk of losing their homes, their businesses, their jobs, even higher risk than we have at present, the entire modern way of life will start to implode bigtime.

It is why the politicians are so scared...
It is why the media is doing all it can to NOT report on what is happening....

They are shitting themselves, because they KNOW what is about to go down in the very near future...

And you know what? When it does, those police officers will change sides, for their jobs are gonna go too, despite the Corporate Bastards pouring money into the NYPD at present, to try to protect themselves...

The Young People are NOT going to give up on this one. They have nothing more to lose and everything to gain...

Life will change drastically and radically, exactly as the Hopi Indians have been predicting for decades..It is already happening right now...

So, you'd best get Spiritual, folks..learn to love your neighbour, for we are all going to have to depend on one another as never before, shortly...and that's a GOOD thing. This turmoil will bring Love back. It will get people talking to each other again, caring about one another..doing jobs for each other, where money is not needed...

We will start to look at our Planet, perhaps for the first time in decades, in a very different way, going back to Nature, dependant on Her once again...


When I went over to the 'Occupy Wall St' facebook page around 2 weeks back to show them support, tell them how proud I was of them all, I also asked for their help in stopping Brazil going ahead with the dreaded Belo Monte Dam...asking them to fight for Chief Raoni and his People..and asking them to join me over on the 'Support Chief Raoni' facebook page...

They came....

They came in their THOUSANDS, in hours, in days!   

And they came fuming that they knew NOTHING about Belo Monte, NOTHING about the Decimation of the Rainforest which is about to happen..NOTHING about the SIXTY other dams Brazil plans to build after Belo Monte, the world's third largest dam...

They knew nothing of the severe droughts and environmental damage caused by China's Three Gorges Dam (the biggest in the world)..nothing about how many good people are being murdered in The Amazon Rainforest at present....

They do now...

And they have spread that page around the world!!!

The internet is a mightly powerful tool, if used in the correct way..and there are now HUNDREDS of 'Occupy' pages on Facebook, with almost every major city in the USA having demonstrations...

The protestors are taking over the London Stock Exchange on 15th October...and you watch it start to spread like wildfire over here too...

We are living in extraordinary and tumultous times...for our Young People are feeling as Storm Tosssed and Battered as our Weather System is making our Planet feel...

Everything is doing what it is supposed to be doing, for a whole new way of life lies ahead...and a FAR better one....

So, hold on tight.....

And Bobz..you take good care of yourself. I'm REALLY proud of you, too! (((xxx)))


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 12:11 PM

'Declaration of the Occupation of New York City'
As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate ...forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the coopera...tion of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.

They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one's skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.

They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.

They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.

They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.

They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers' healthcare and pay.

They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.

They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.

They have sold our privacy as a commodity.

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.

They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.

They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.

They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.

They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people's lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.

They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.

They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.

They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*

To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!

*These grievances are not all-inclusive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 12:13 PM

Keith Olberman reading the above statement


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 12:17 PM

As 20,000 rally in New York alone....

"This is only getting....BIGGER!"



Hey, Corporate Bastards, Wanker Bankers, Corrupt Politicans and Quantifying Quants of Wall Street....If you treat people like shit, then you get shit thrown back at you. Just be grateful it's Peaceful Shit, where all your former workers and customers are whispering:

"We are NOT taking this ANY LONGER!"

But that whisper is being whispered by tens of thousands, and they will soon be HUNDREDS of thousands..

And The Whisper will become The ROAR!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 12:28 PM

Please sign and share, if you are standing beside these brave young people..and indeed, people of ALL ages now who are rallying to The Cause to take their lives BACK! :0)

Avaaz's 'The World Versus Wall Street' Petition

Taken from the above:

"To fellow citizens occupying Wall Street and peoples protesting across the world:

We stand with you in this struggle for real democracy. Together we can end the capture and corruption of our governments by corporate and wealthy elites, and hold our politicians accountable to serve the public interest. We are united - the time for change has come!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 01:32 PM

Did you get all of that, GfS?

Not just Young People, Lizzie. Plenty of people my age (when the Big Bang occurred, I'm the guy who said, "What the hell was THAT!!?"), especially if we're old enough to remember how things were before Reagan gave the U. S. back to the Fat Cats, are totally fed up with the present situation.

There is an interesting line in Rafael Sabatini's historical novel, Scaramouche (set as the French Revolution was just about to start). "If the throne topples, it will be those who are nearest to it who will be crushed."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 01:55 PM

X Factor politics......


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 02:01 PM

Wouldn't it make a great deal more sense to direct the protests at someone who is in a position to make changes? Wall street, certainly, won't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 02:05 PM

Oh, Don..don't worry, I mentioned folks of 'all' ages in my post just above yours. :0) xx

LOADS of links on here..

The 'Occupy Wall St' Facebook page.....

Bruce, get yourself a Facebook page!! :0) x


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 02:08 PM

Well, Dick..the 'Anonymous' guys have threatened to shut down the New York Stock Exchange on 10/10. Whether they will or not remains to be seen, for it could be a hoax, but..other times they've done this kind of thing.

'Anonymous' (which was born from the *brilliant* film 'V for Vendetta' is filled with guys with magical computer brains, who are pretty darn good at hacking into anything, should they so choose..

So, watch this space, as they say....


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 02:17 PM

It's difficult for the public to know how to respond to the present political state of the world, dick, seeing that the normal traditional voting process has been rendered null and void by lobbyists' money.

What are people to do when the political parties and the system are co-opted by major financial elites?

We've seen what they finally did in Egypt...but the Army is now running Egypt, and it seems likely that the people will in no way receive the genuine progressive changes they had hoped to secure by toppling Mr Mubarak (Who, after all, was just one man...you can remove the symbolic leader of a corrupt system...but does that really change the whole system? Probably not! It probably just renews itself under some new leaders.)

So what are people to do? Wall Street is a well known visual symbol of the financial elite and a gathering place for activities that relate to the doings of the financial elite.

Therefore it makes a certain amount of sense to do a Wall Street Protest, does it not? It's rather like the Parisian mob storming the Bastille, an outward symbol of oppression....but that was a violent protest. This one isn't, so far.

A public that feels robbed and disempowered and helpless will eventually rise up in some way. When the police and the army either join them...or stand aside and refuse to use force upon them...that is when the power elite may fall. What comes in the wake of that is anybody's guess.

It happened in the Soviet Union in '89. It happened in Egypt. It can happen here too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 02:18 PM

Scenes from last night on Wall Street

And Ake...'X Factor Politics' ?

Hardly.

The X Factor is run by Corporate Bastards, who have used, and abused, the Music Industry for way too long. They have humiliated many people, deliberatly picking them for their *lack* of talent, knowing they'll be laughed at and ridiculed, all to get their 'ratings' up...They make artists sign highly dubious contracts too..

No, the people out there on the streets are against the very kind of folks who run these kind of programmes in the first place, dumbing people down, turning them into proles, making them think 'celebrity' is all-important, all-consuming...

X Factor Politics is what they are rebelling AGAINST!! They want REAL Politics, REAL Politicians, REAL Leaders, who are honest and true, brimming over with Integrity and Honour...



Good try though..... ;0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 03:32 PM

If any thinks that hackers shutting down the Stock Exchange will help reduce the economic inequities that are plaguing our economy, I'd love to hear an explanation of how.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 03:48 PM

I doubt that anyone here does think that, so why even bring it up?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 03:54 PM

What the Protestors believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 04:36 PM

Amos.... Keith Olbermann Reads... the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 05:21 PM

Dick,

America is faced with a serious problem. Your politicians don't care about the people who voted them into office. People are fed up. People are angry. Read the manifesto Lizzie posted. Please give it a close read. People lost their homes and livelihoods and Wall Street was part of that rip-off. The rich did ok from it all, and people know that.

Closing down stock exchanges may not be the answer, but leaving them open sure as hell hasn't worked. The expression that fits this situation is this:

I'm so fu#kin' mad I don't know whether to sh#t, wind my watch or steal third.

People began to awake in the early 1980s when the first big economic slump occurred. People began to lose their voices. Neither Ottawa nor Washington cared. We all began to see that the game is about money and using money to keep people down. Gradually, with communication being available to the voiceless, people are coming together.

Playboys And Playgirls

Oh, ye playboys an' playgirls
Ain't a-gonna run my world
Ain't a-gonna run my world
Ain't a-gonna run my world
Ye playboys an' playgirls
Ain't a-gonna run my world
Not now or no other time.

You fallout shelter sellers
Can't get in my door
Can't get in my door
Can't get in my door
You fallout shelter sellers
Can't get in my door
Not now or no other time.

Your Jim Crow ground
Can't turn me around
Can't turn me around
Can't turn me around
Your Jim Crow ground
Can't turn me around
Not now or no other time.

The laughter in the lynch mob
Ain't a-gonna do no more
Ain't a-gonna do no more
Ain't a-gonna do no more
The laughter in the lynch mob
Ain't a-gonna do no more
Not now or no other time.

You insane tongues of war talk
Ain't a-gonna guide my road
Ain't a-gonna guide my road
Ain't a-gonna guide my road
You insane tongues of war talk
Ain't a-gonna guide my road
Not now or no other time.

You red baiters an' race haters
Ain't a-gonna hang around here
Ain't a-gonna hang around here
Ain't a-gonna hang around here
You red baiters an' race haters
Ain't a-gonna hang around here
Not now or no other time.

Ye playboys an' playgirls
Ain't a-gonna run my world
Ain't a-gonna run my world
Ain't a-gonna run my world
Ye playboys an' playgirls
Ain't a-gonna run my world
Not now or no other time.

Just a silly little song, but it's taking on new meaning. Do rational people really think that medications cost as much as pharmaceutical companies charge? Do rational people really think the meals served to US troops in the Iraq war were worth $18 a piece? Do rational people really believe that the fifty-or-so billion dollars unaccounted for in the Iraq war was spirited away by tooth fairies? Do rational people really think that when average people are stripped of everything they've worked for they will lay down and die or simply go away? The manifesto Lizzie posted IS the voice of the people, and the people are angry--angrier than Wall Street, Ottawa or Washington can imagine.

Fifty years ago one paycheck could support a family. Today, it takes two or three. Why is that? Ford mentioned that if average people could understand the banking system there'd be a revolution tomorrow. Tomorrow has come. IMO, it's late, but it's here.

Where was the main-stream media when people first went to Wall Street to protest? Who muzzled the papers, the TVs, the radios? And by what right? We've seen so many examples of manipulation, and having seen those examples we've turned our backs and ignored the obvious. The obvious is biting us all. The sickness called Capitalism can no longer be supported by the average person. And people are coming to realize that.

In a very pragmatic sense, shutting down stock exchanges won't change much. But leaving them open hasn't changed a damned thing. When ya got nothing, ya got nothing to lose. North America has lost the stabilizing influence of that thing called the middle class. It no longer exists. One job just doesn't cut it anymore. Families fell apart, kids left to fend for themselves for over two generations. Now we wonder why we've got problems.

The system that got us to this state is a system people do NOT trust, and why should they? Why should any of us? I think a door has been opened, and I don't know that it can be closed again. Frankly, I'm not sure it should.

Why are there no economically poor politicians? Why when very rich people say they are not being taxed enough do we ignore their statements? Why when stock market manipulation causes people to lose their homes do we not see our jails filled with the trash that did it to them? Why do we see inequities in our penal systems that have an over representation of native North Americans, people of colour, people from disenfranchised backgrounds? There are NO answers forthcoming from anyone, because the answers people receive are horse droppings.

Crime pays, especially white-collar crime, and imo all other crime results from that. When US troops and cops point their guns at average people, something's very wrong. It's been wrong for at least a century. YMMV


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 05:37 PM

Amos, I hadn't heard that. If I had I wouldn't have posted. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 05:40 PM

The numbers of those dissatisfied enough to demonstrate is just getting larger. If they get focused on something, they'll be unstoppable. On TV a bit earlier, I saw a Republican politician promising not to take any campaign contribution of more than $100. When it became legal to accept unlimited donations, I think most of us saw where things could be headed.

B, tune please? ("Turn Me 'Round"?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 05:53 PM

Well, I have cleared my time for the local Occupy Wall Street Saturday afternoon... Will be interesting...

BTW, OWS ain't just young white kids... That's Republican speak... When you look at the pictures, study them carefully... And as this movement picks up steam watch for a lot more Baby Boomers...

This is so exciting... In mjy wildest dreams I never thought that I'd see the oppressed rise up against the corrupt corporations... And, yes, as LH pointed out, Wall Street is the symbol of what has gone wrong with out democracy...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 05:56 PM

Look carefully at the OWS signs.
This is not partisan.
This is not a Democratic Party rally.
This is a rebellion by the 99% against the $y$tem, perpetuated by both Republicans and Democrats, that has created an underemployed, overworked, overtaxed (relative to the 1%) voicele$$ majority.
If you look at what we want (listen to Amos' link above), you'd expect the Tea Party to be on board.
Why aren't they?
It's easy - the Tea Party is a phony creation of the 1%.
The 1% and their wholly-owned "news" media are making sure that Tea Partiers think the 99% is a bunch of druggie punks.
If the Tea Partiers listened, and thought for themselves rather than listening to FAUX, they would realize that they are the 99% as well. They are on our team - they're just being told they are not.
They will wake up. The revolution is building - let's just be damn sure to keep it peaceful!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 05:57 PM

What a freakin coincidence.... I just happen to have a song hanging around that just might blend in with the wall St. Protesters....




The Wall St. March
                   By Don Hakman

{Adult language, Adult content}

Wall St. got money for nothing and checks for free
We got the nothing and paid for their greed
Wall St. will stop laughing and know what we mean.
When we take back their banks and their fortunes are seized.

When the rich lie cheat and steal they call it success
They tell us OBEY us and clean up this mess
Shut up or else, the rich ass holes dare
But complain once and oooooo, its Class Warfare.

CHORUS

Occupy Wall St. Never retreat, from the wealthy mobsters down on Wall St.
March to stop their criminal schemes and come and join the American Spring


Boys will be boys with all their tom foolery
Like taking my home and job from me.
Wall St. bets on disease and wars.
Oh how they love their money and whores.

Now they're after our unions, police and great teachers
They defile us on Fox with blondes and fake preachers.
Wall St. wants us to pay and pay and pay
The day that stops is today, TODAY, TODAY.

CHORUS
Occupy Wall St. Never retreat, from the wealthy mobsters down on Wall St.
March to stop their criminal schemes and come and join the American Spring.


Bankers sold our country short
They attacked America on a bet
They paid themselves billions
And gave us their debt.


Banks should be our servants not our slave masters
Wall St Bankers are greedy, fat bastards
They are the 60 Trillion dollar pranksters
And the best dressed mobsters and gangsters

CHORUS
Occupy Wall St. Never retreat, from wealthy mobsters down on Wall St.
March to stop their criminal schemes and come and join the American Spring


Get out Boehner, Blowback's a bitch.
The American people are demanding a switch.
Things are really not as they seem
Hank Paulson dreamed up the American ream.

Wall St, got money for nothing and checks for free
We got the nothing and paid for their greed
Wall St. will stop laughing and know what we mean.
When we take back their banks and their fortunes are seized.

Wall St. will stop laughing and know what we mean.
When we take back their banks and their fortunes are seized.

Wall St. will stop laughing and know what we mean.
When we take back their banks and their fortunes are seized.













{Bruce I trust you to put a march behind this and bring it to life)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 06:56 PM

Send it to 'em, Don.

Jeri, I'll sing it for you when you come up. Bring your guitar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 07:06 PM

GREAT Placard! :0)


For those who don't use Facebook, as that's where the link goes...it's a photo of a young man holding a placard which states:

"Dear 1%
We fell asleep for a while
We've woken up
Sincerely, the 99%"



Nearly 7,000 people on here now:
The 'Occupy Canada' facebook page....

And now they're into Washington - Mother Jones article

Nearly 6,000 people on here:
Occupy The London Stock Exchange facebook page


In the words of Richie Havens - "They can't hide us anymore*


Bruce, that's an excellent post, above.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 07:30 PM

As btw, I first heard the song Playboys and Playgirls from Gil Turner in 1964/5 (I think). I have no idea who the author is. Like some of the 'protest' songs from those days, it may have many authors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 07:38 PM

Brilliant article on the Quants (the physicists who've moved into Wall Street) (and yes, it's from the Daily Mail, but written by a freelance writer, so don't get yer knickers in a twist!)

ROBERT HARRIS: How supercomputers preying on human fear are taking over the world's stock markets


And this is even better, except it's kinda depressing when you start to realise what they've done..which is basically scientifically fucked up The System with Beyond Comprehensible Mathematics, but hey, they're making OODLES of money, so they don't care...

‎"Isn't it a problem that I don't understand what you are trying to explain to me?" says the interviewer to a Quant...who laughs, with his buddies...and explains, patronisingly, that he was actually 'dumbing it down' for her..

'Quants - The Alchemists of Wall Street' - Youtube


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 08:18 PM

Little Hawk-
I was responding to Lizzie Cornish's post of Oct 6.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 10:01 PM

"The Occupy Wall Street movement has its roots in Vancouver, home base of anti-consumer magazine Adbusters. On July 13, 2011, Adbusters published a spread calling on people to occupy New York's financial district. The magazine's editors say they were inspired by the Arab Spring, and envisioned a similar uprising in the United States.

The protests began on Sept. 17, when a few dozen people tried to set up tents in front of the New York Stock Exchange. Since then, hundreds have flooded the nearby park, which has become the operating base for Occupy Wall Street."

From today's Globe and Mail, fyi.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 10:34 PM

Mostly Liz,

The first part of your first post on there is absolutely correct!...as I also have been bitching about the same things, often with MUCH resistance. I do not subscribe to 'going back' as you suggested that I was. But I DO recognize the problem got to this boiling point, BECAUSE of the corruption of globalist bankers, and the politicians, who masquerade under the title of 'Representatives' (I must have at least 200 posts referring to this!).....and of course have met stubbornly silly opposition, mostly from some Democrat ideologues on here, that somehow their party, and/or 'their guy' were exempt and not part of the collusion,...through the corruption, from the big business guys. Scroll back under my name and you will see that I've been expounding on that, for well over two or three years!
"petecockermouth" hit it on the head, as to the same thing that has happened over there!!!!
So in that premise, you're singing to the choir....but, when you go through the 'demands', and cross reference them with each other, they don't make sense...and I believe, that certain political factions, are using this very opportunity, CONTRIVED these events, not to bring 'change' THROUGH PEACEFUL MEANS, but to create a necessity, for the government, in conjunction with the big business guys to CRACK DOWN, financially and militarily against our own countrymen, and FORCE the change, that even YOU or anyone on here will like AT ALL!!
Now, before blood gets shed, from either side, or before you, or any loved ones have to decide, to have to shed blood, as a result of controlled and manipulated groups of people, don't you want to find out, FOR SURE, that this is not a concoction????!!!???.....using real issues, for false solutions?????....by people with ulterior motives??
This doesn't interest you, at all??????
For the exact SAME reasons I don't trust the Tea Party, nor the Democrats, nor the Republicans..I don't truth this either, when the smell of a rat is as strong as a skunk!
Now, does this seem unreasonable to you??
In other words, before Americans start killing each other over this shit, it would be a tragedy, beyond describing, if it was started over a group of people being whooped up, and lied to!!
....and the clue to the lies are found in the demands. All you have to do, as you read them, is ask yourself.."How can they ask this, and not have to use BORROWED money(from who) to accomplish it??!!??
Try it....something don't make sense......unless.......(to be continued)....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 10:36 PM

Yikes! Adbusters. Found an article written by a self-described right of center guy. He says...

Adbusters makes caviar socialists like Dominique Strauss-Kahn look like the salt of the earth, saviors of the working class. They basically prey on college students and twenty-somethings unsure of themselves but with distrust in authority, selling their massive and expensive glossy magazine.

Were Occupy Wall Street an organic creation, then I'd be slightly more sympathetic to the cause. But this is Adbusters' wet dream... Of course the people in Occupy Wall Street don't have clear reasons or goals. Adbusters made it that way. And that alone fills me with rage.

Despite all its bluster about the virtues of an advertising-free world, Adbusters uses the very techniques it excoriates corporations for. It uses marketing to try and kill marketing.

Why do Adbusters writers and editors hate personal choice so much? Because their utopia would be a nightmare for most Americans. "What makes you think you have the right to drive around with a ton of metal wrapped around you," asks the September/October 2003 issue, "the right to twist a tap and get hot water, the right to flick a switch and get your house warmed up?" Were the Adbusters group to get its way, hundreds of years of progress would vanish.

The very name of the group implies destruction of private property. This is specifically advocated in nearly every issue of the magazine.

The slick glossy has a cover price of $7.95 -- more than twice the price of People, Vogue, or GQ. The Adbusters website features a plethora of products for sale, including videos, posters, calendars, postcards, books, and even a 3x5-foot "corporate" flag -- the American flag with the stars replaced by corporate logos.


http://bornagainredneck.blogspot.com/2011/10/who-is-behind-occupy-wall-street.html

Tell me it ain't so. Is Occupy Wall Street just a marketing campaign?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 10:47 PM

Hey Songwronger!!..You got it!!!....How's the music coming??(Better, I hope!)...because YOU have something in there to say!...and something great!..It WILL come out!!!...if it isn't already!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 11:29 PM

Guitar playing's on hold for a while, or songwriting, at least. I'm currently writing other things, but I'll get back to creating chaos out of melodic order eventually. Thanks for that link to the kids playing the banjo/fiddle/guitar piece. Amazing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 01:11 AM

Composers have the 'privilege'...and 'duty', to contain the chaos. It is the process. I have faith in you...and best of wishes that you accomplish your work. I took a break from guitar, and composed, for a while, on keyboards. TWICE it has got me international recognition!
So, whatever you're working on now, GO FOR IT!..Again, I have faith in you!

GfS

P.S. Also, again, anything I can do...........holler!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 03:54 AM

What's 'driving' the young people, GfS, is nothing to do with any advertising/non/anti-advertising campaign.

It is Loss of Hope. And when you feel that way, you start to get VERY angry, particularly when there is now a tool such as the internet to open the truth up to the world about how this has all happened.

This is just the beginning...there's a way to go yet, for sure. But it was one helluva of a beginning...

And don't forget, that so many will be losing their jobs soon, even more than at present, so many will be losing their houses, have already lost them....But you will have empty houses out there with no-one to buy them....

Today it was announced on the local BBC News that there are around 3,000 people in North Devon on the Housing Waiting List, that is, waiting for the Council to house them, for they cannot afford to buy or rent homes of their own any longer.

There are NINE houses available for the 3,000.

Do the Math.

Then do the Anger Math.

Work out what is going to happen, when even MORE will lose their homes, as they know will come to pass....

Anger will spill over into Violence, for as Bruce says so often, if you have nothing to lose, then you feel you have everything to gain..


It is my belief we are now in the middle of World War III.

It became a SIN to have an opinion, to be politically incorrect...and the Thought Police were all over anyone who dared to stand up and say "Hang on, Your Emperor is Stark Bloody Naked!!!"

I know. I tried it umpteen times and the Wrath of Mudcat and The English Folk World rained down upon me...People told me I was a nutter, thick, stupid, ignorant...


Well.......................................


The kids don't have a life expectation as you and I did. They are going to have a LONGER life in years, yes, but they have no hopes of starting life with no debt, saving for a home, buying that home, raising their family in it, having A LIFE!!

ALL they can see is The Conveyer Belt of Life that has been invented for them by The Corporate Bastards.

Well, guess what?

They don't want it!

They don't want to study, work, consume and DIE.

They want to LIVE!

And they are BLOODY well DETERMINED to fight for their Right to do exactly that!

There are BILLIONS of GOOD people out here, and the odds against The Bastards are shittier than they have ever been before.

So, I do not agree with you. This is coming from the very hearts of the people themselves, who have educated themselves about who the enemy actually is, what has been happening, what they have ALLOWED to happen, and where they now want to go...


As Chief Oren Lyons says, over and again, in his many videos out there on the internet, it is time for us to become our Own Leaders, for why would you want to blindly follow those who are intent on leading you over the edge of a cliff without once questioning what they are doing....


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 03:55 AM

dick - Okay. Sorry.

999 - Playboys and Playgirls was written by Bob Dylan in the early years (probably around 1962. He never recorded it, but I guess some other people did.

I hope this thing finally shakes the monied elite right off their ivory tower. Wouldn't that be something to see!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 03:57 AM

Thanks, LH. I appreciate the info regarding the song's authorship.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 07:24 AM

OWS an organized marketing campaign?!?
Get your ass out here and look before you spout.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 07:38 AM

How to make a life-long Activist in just a few easy moves...


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 09:22 AM

So many people have lost their homes as a result of the Reaganomics melt-down that home ownership, according to NBC this morning, has now dropped to percentages not seen since the Great Depression...

BTW, here's how the ballgame is working:

Bank forecloses > rich people buy (steal) house > rich people rent house to working class = more shift of wealth to the rich...

That's happening across the country... Millions of homes have been and continue to be gobbled up by the drowning-in-cash-rich... And for 50 cents on the dollar... Don't believe me??? If you know any "honest" broker who will tell you the truth ask him or her...

The rich never cease to amaze me on just how creative they can be to cheat the working class...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 10:25 AM

Liz,
I agree with most of your post. Yes, people are angry, and like you, I have posted a bazzilion post on Mudcat, about the big globalist corporations in collusion with crooked, paid off politicians, OF BOTH PARTIES, bilking the public for everything they can...while hiking taxes, to pay for loans, for programs that they convince people are going to be used in 'representing' the people's wishes, ..but instead, use those funds to interfere with the policies of other nations, and causes...without the approval of the people that they are taxing, nor an accountability of where the monies went, or to who, of for what! ..and have put not only us in hock, but the next generations ...to which, some on here, have tried to make me out to be 'the bad guy', when I point out to them that this is corrupt and wrong! Those are the SAME people, when I was opposed to the Federal Reserve, and called for their investigation and disbandment, as did John Kennedy, called me everything in the book, then deny it. Now these same idiot-logues back the 'protesters'.....who want the elimination of the Federal Reserve!..Go figure!
Oh, how fast these people jump on the bandwagon.....oh, how fast these people become obsolete, by attaching themselves to any passing fad, who claims to 'be on their side'......even though within the last week or two, they vehemently opposed, what they now say they support!...and why?....because they very ones they are NOW supporting, have been pretentiously wrapped up in the APPEARANCES of being 'anti-corporate'..when in fact, this particular movement, is a manipulation, for the government to step in, and lay down the MAJOR crackdown, on behalf of a COMPLETE corporate/government/globalist totalitarian nightmare!
If there was the assistance of an ad company, as alluded to by ANOTHER poster, it sure would be interesting to discover WHO'S account! Who hired them, and what are their ties to them....I mean, if you want to follow the 'money trail'!
...but YES, I agree with you. People ARE angry..people are out of work...people are NOT being represented by their elected officials..but I'm not convince, in the least, that this Wall Street protestations are being formed by a 'pure' grassroots movement.....any more than I believe that the Tea Party is a 'pure' grassroots movement, nor the Democrats are representing the people who are even Democrats, nor the Republicans, the same.
Guess what?
Real grassroots movement comes up from the street.....not from someone's well funded corporate offices.
At this point, I am not convinced that this is nothing but a ploy!
Another thing, SOME of the demands are the SAME as the Tea Party's..but with a 'not-so-bright' twist......that SOUNDS appealing, but is utter nonsense, once anyone THINKS IT THROUGH....first of all the want 'absolute debt forgiveness'..then they demand everybody gets a 'living' wage, REGARDLESS of employment....where is the money going to come from, and what form of 'MONEY' are we talking about?...a LOAN???..Fiat money, just being printed??..by who??...what makes it worth anything??..what is it backed by?? LOANS?????..by who??
Sounds like the proverbial jump from the frying pan to the fire, to me! How about you?

And as a addendum,..There are those on here, who like to paint me as some sort of hostile creature...especially when they get their lies called on..by me, that they are NOT making ANY sense whatsoever. (The Bob and Don Show was the latest),...I, in NO way mean any disrespect for you and your post, nor your person..in fact, of all the people who have posted about this subject, who are leaning toward support of it all..yours makes more sense, and is, at least consistent with your prior posts....careful of those who want to jump on your bandwagon, just to interject their nonsense of hostility.

Regards,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 11:46 AM

And as a addendum,..There are those on here, who like to paint me as some sort of hostile creature...especially when they get their lies called on..by me, that they are NOT making ANY sense whatsoever. (The Bob and Don Show was the latest),...

The problem with your responses to other people, GfS is that you characterize well-thought and supported opinion as "lies." That is guaranteed to chafe.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 11:53 AM

Please, don't call me 'Liz', GfS.
Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 12:02 PM

Seeger 'n' Springsteen - The Ghost of Tom Joad


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 12:47 PM

Thanks, Lizzie... I loved that part of Bruce's career and went to hear him on his Tom Joad tour... Think that was around '96... Constitution Hall in DC... Very nice concert... All acoustic and no accompaniment...

BTW, I last saw Pete about 8 years ago at Common Ground in West minster, Md... Heck of a down to earth guy... Signed my program and actually talked with me for at least 10 minutes...

Haven't kept up with today's events because I'm outside working... Just taking a short lunch break...

Looking forward to tomorrow's meeting/rally in Charlotte... This all takes me right back to the late 60s... Lotta energy...

BoA (Bank of America) has started charging $5 a month ($60 a year) for each debit card... Thousands of people are moving their accounts out of BoA and setting up accounts with credit unions and local banks... Good... Boycott is something that a lot of non-monopoly corporations understand...

The war is "on"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 02:03 PM

Yeah!! Sock it to 'em, Bobert!! :0) x


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 03:07 PM

A fair amount of activity out here on the West Coast just as there is all over the United States, mirroring the Occupy Wall Street protests in New York.    CLICKY #1.

Story with pictures:    CLICKY #2.

The future:    CLICKY #3.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 03:58 PM

"Real grassroots movement comes up from the street.....not from someone's well funded corporate offices."

Which is why the Tea Party is so phoney.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 06:27 PM

The Tea Party very likely started out as a grass roots organization (or dis-organization)---it had no real effect until it was taken over and directed by organizations like Fox. What made it possible for them to have the power they have is that its disparate members (simple-minded libertarians, Conservative Christian activists, and general malcontents)simplified their message to "Cut Spending and taxes"and pressured candidates in local elections and primary fights, even though the Tea Party was never ver popular among the general population.
Tee Wall Street protesters should learn from their successful methods..


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 06:56 PM

"Tee Wall Street protesters should learn from their successful methods.."

That's just it. The Tea Party wasn't successful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 08:01 PM

Guest999-
If you don't think the Tea Party has been successful, how do you explain what's been happening in Congress, or the tone of the Republican Primary campaigns?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 08:11 PM

I guess this all comes down to defining success... Yes, the Koch brothers and Dick Armey threw hundreds of millions of dollar$$$ into hundreds of campaigns and got a lot of "their" people elected...

The problem is that these people were other rich people and not the grassroots kinda folks... In incoming freshmen House class is the richest class in history with an average net worth of $1.4M...

So success??? Not on a grassroots level but on the corporate level...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 08:56 PM

Greetings:

My wife Marilyn and I just got home after spending part of four of the past five days at the Occupy Wall Street encampment at Liberty Plaza (Zuccotti Plaza) in New York City. Most of the time I have been singing, mostly Woody Guthrie songs but also a few of my own and a couple of labor union standards such as Which Side Are You On? Other times I have just been wandering around, listening to speakers and performers, or talking with people.

At one point this past Tuesday, Ron Jacobson, a libertarian reporter, interviwed me. Here is a clickable link to a video of that interview. For some reason Jacobson identified me as a union leader, although I had told him that I was never more than a rank and file member.

My overall impression is that the Occupy Wall Street encampment is an incredibly well organized event, considering how many people are involved. The system of leaderless horizontal democracy is working very well. Food is plentiful, nutritious, and tasty. Warm clothing, socks, hats, tarps, blankets, sleeping bags, etc, are freely available. There is a library, a media center, child care, a communications center, all sorts of training, and more.

What is especially impressive is the method of public speaking without electrical amplification. The speaker says one short phrase at a time, and then everyone in the crowd near the speaker repeats what he or she just said. It's instant human amplification. What a brilliant idea!

Let me just add that I haven't felt this optimistic in a long, long time.

--- Steve Suffet


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 09:14 PM

Right on, Steve!!!

Power to the people!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 09:37 PM

Bobert-
"Yes, the Koch brothers and Dick Armey threw hundreds of millions of dollar$$$ into hundreds of campaigns and got a lot of "their" people elected..."

Agreed. But they supplied the campaign money----Where do you think the votes came from?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 09:43 PM

Great, Steve! Thanks for that!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 09:45 PM

Well, dick... I hate if but the fact is that the candidate who spends the most $$$ wins 90% of the time...

This is part of what the OWS movement is about...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 12:22 AM

American politics is a total basket case but Chongo Chimp is a shining light at the end of the tunnel. In Canada we have a leader who wants to copy the American system and the end of the tunnel remains dark. Wall Street is an emblem of corporate greed that controlls the political puppet strings, so that is a great place to protest the screwing of the common folk! Power to the people!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 03:23 AM

Capitalism, even at grass roots level is driven to a certain extent by greed and exploitation.
What these people are protesting about is capitalism....they dont know it and if they did could never say it and be taken seriously.

Any form of revolution would require the loss of life, personal property and what passes here for liberty.

Little Hawk said months ago, that we are not yet desperate enough to become revolutionaries......what is happening right now is a little posing and play acting.....whistling in the dark, or as I mentioned earlier, X Factor politics.

Any attempt to remove the Capitalist systen will be met with extreme force.....and dont think that is a joke,
many thousands will die.

I hope sense prevails and we understand that systemic change can only be effected by long term unity.....not short term divisiveness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 03:40 AM

and please dont cite the demise of the Soviet Union as an example

The people who controlled Communism had no vested interest in the system, unlike the Capitalists, who will never walk away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 03:50 AM

"My overall impression is that the Occupy Wall Street encampment is an incredibly well organized event, considering how many people are involved. The system of leaderless horizontal democracy is working very well. Food is plentiful, nutritious, and tasty. Warm clothing, socks, hats, tarps, blankets, sleeping bags, etc, are freely available. There is a library, a media center, child care, a communications center, all sorts of training, and more."

For fuck sake wake up.....dont you realise you are facing "the Empire".....you are not on a Sunday School picnic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 09:25 AM

Nah, Ake, ol' buddy... Revolution doesn't have to mean loss of life... All the progressive movement needs is just some "microphone time" to counter the corporate propaganda machine... People just haven't been presented with progressive ideas going back to the late 60s, early 70s when the corporations squashed the last progressive movement...

So what we have are a lot of highly brainwashed people who are voting against their own interests... People aren't stupid... They are mis-informed...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 09:26 AM

they supplied the campaign money----Where do you think the votes came from?

Ignorant morons?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 10:37 AM

"For fuck sake wake up.....dont you realise you are facing "the Empire".....you are not on a Sunday School picnic."

The thought has crossed my mind. So has the following from an essay by Tom Paine.

"I have as little superstition in me as any man living, but my secret opinion has ever been, and still is, that God Almighty will not give up a people to military destruction, or leave them unsupportedly to perish, who have so earnestly and so repeatedly sought to avoid the calamities of war, by every decent method which wisdom could invent. Neither have I so much of the infidel in me, as to suppose that He has relinquished the government of the world, and given us up to the care of devils; and as I do not, I cannot see on what grounds the king of Britain can look up to heaven for help against us: a common murderer, a highwayman, or a house-breaker, has as good a pretence as he."


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 11:01 AM

Greg F.-
The ignorant morons who voted were a bunch of folks who were angry and frustrated about the conditions they were living under. Point is, that they developed political clout by focusing (or being focused by manipulative forces) on some specific, concrete demands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 11:02 AM

Obama gave an enthusiastic endorsement to the Wall Street protestors.

That is because he is and "activist" and not an executive at all.

The protestors are carfully organized and supplied with food, warm clothing, bull horns, and direction where they are supposed to "protest".

Machael Moore, Susan Saran Rap and the usual Hollywood suspects are showing up and giving pep talks. The bills will be paid by George Soros out of the $12 billion he has accumulated by short-selling America's business comunity, the people who employed the millions who are now unemployed. What a stupid game.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: kendall
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 11:37 AM

"The Capitalist will sell the rope that hangs him." (Karl Marx)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 11:39 AM

The people who voted the millionaire Tea Party candidates did so because the Tea Party candidates promised "jobs, jobs, jobs"... Everything was about jobs... Then once elected, the millionaire Tea Part candidates tore off their sheep clothing and cranked up their hidden agendas and used "eastern elitist pinhead" class warfare on the educated to appease their dupes...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 02:30 PM

Sorry to burst your bubble, pdq, but...

* President Obama did not endorse Occupy Wall Street. All he said is that he understands why lots of people feel frustrated. Other politicians have voiced similar sentiments.

• The protesters are in fact very well organized, and supplied with food and clothing. But that is because they are self-organized. There are no outsiders giving the movement direction. If you actually saw the encampment and how it governs and takes care of itself, that notion would be completely absurd. The only direction comes from the General Assembly, in which everyone has an equal voice.

• There are no bullhorns at the Occupy Wall Street encampment, since the Occupy Wall Street encampment does not have a permit for electrical amplification. Instead, the people use human amplification. The speaker says one short phrase at a time, and then the crowd repeats what he or she just said. It is a very effective system.

• Yes, the people you call "the usual Hollywood suspects" have indeed been showing up and giving talks. But so can anyone, including you. Just go to the table near the west side of Liberty Plaza and sign up for a time slot, and then you will get your chance to address the multitudes. Whether or not many people will listen to you is, however, an open question. There are also informal speeches and discussions going on all the time. For these you need not sign up for a time slot. Just show up and start talking.

* I am no fan of George Soros, and although he might be a political ally on particular issues he still represents one wing of the corporate elite. However, he is not bankrolling Occupy Wall Street. Support has come from countless thousands of small donations. If Soros would like to make a donation, he is welcome to do so. But if you believe he can by influence that way, let alone control, then you have no idea how Occupy Wall Street functions.

--- Steve Suffet


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Janie
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 02:40 PM

Dick,

Think Occupy Wall St. is a phase?.

It's more personal than ideological


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 06:07 PM

Make that "But if you believe he can buy influence that way,.."

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 06:32 PM

folks who were angry and frustrated about the conditions they were living under

You bet, Dick - and they had voted for the people that created the conditions they were living under, and they KEEP voting for them, against their own interests.

Sounds like morons to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 06:36 PM

Greg F. I hold no brief at all for the Tea Party---just pointing out that they provided a model for having some political clout.
The magic word is FOCUS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 07:27 PM

Just returned from OccupyCharlotte rally and was very impressed at just how well it was organized... The younginz don't need us ol' 60's radicals tellin' 'um nuthin'... They have it down... I'm still trying to get the hand signals down but the entire way they communicate is so democratic that Tom Jefferson would love to see it...

We'll be doing it again next Saturday... One thing that was missing was drums... We always had 'um in the 60s and there were plenty in DC during the Stop-George-Bush-Insanity rallies in the Mad-dash-to-Iraq days... We need more noise... I'll make me a paint-can drum for the next one...

But all in all, very good for the first lap around the track...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 07:50 PM

In response to akenaton...

What these people are protesting about is capitalism....they dont know it and if they did could never say it and be taken seriously.

They say it all the time. There are a handful of libertarians who are part of Occupy Wall Street, and they defend capitalism per se, but say that it has become corrupted. Most of the participants, however, agree that the modern corporate capitalist system is what we are up against. I doubt that many believe it can be overthrown right away, but they do believe that some serious structural reform within capitalism is possible. Of course this is only my impression from what I have seen and heard. You will have to ask them yourself.

Any attempt to remove the Capitalist systen will be met with extreme force.....and dont think that is a joke, many thousands will die.

Certainly any attempt to remove the capitalist system by force will be dealt with that way, which is why I heard just about no Weather Underground style revolutionary posturing at Occupy Wall Street. And the little that I did hear came from old-timers, not from the young people. They understand that any armed insurrection would more likely come from the Right than from the Left. And even if there were a fully organized armed revolutionary movement, it would not only face the US Armed Forces, but it would also have to fight civilian law enforcement agencies (federal, state, local), Right-wing militia, private paramilitary security outfits such as Blackwater, organized crime syndicates, drug cartels, and if all else fails to stop them, the combined forces of NATO. In other words, it cannot be done. So the only viable alternative is nonviolent resistance, even if it is just for tactical reasons. This is what the Occupy Wall Street FAQs have to say: Finally, but crucially: This movement is comprised of thousands of people who have committed themselves to nonviolence. The one thing the powers that be understand and employ incredibly effectively around the world is the power of violence. We aim to offer a different model: a model of nonviolent direct democracy.

For fuck sake wake up.....dont you realise you are facing "the Empire".....you are not on a Sunday School picnic.

People are waking up, and many are already wide awake. The choice now is whether or not to be part of the process. If you have something to say, then say it from within. Shouting from the sidelines doesn't do any good.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 07:52 PM

September 20, 2011

President Obama continued laying what may be more groundwork for his re-election campaign Monday, including a new tax proposal. He calls it the "Buffett rule": a new tax on people making more than $1million a year, who currently pay a much lower rate than an average middle-class American. The president, in fact, proposed this rule to a group of people with a lot of millionaires in it.

The number of Americans who are millionaires is pretty low — about 1 percent of the population. Members of Congress who are millionaires? Nearly 50 percent.

That's according to the Center for Responsive Politics, a nonpartisan watchdog group that tracks money in politics.

Of the 435 members of the House, "244 current members of Congress are millionaires — that's about 46 percent and that includes 138 Republicans and 106 Democrats," says Center for Responsive Politics spokesman Michael Beckel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 08:01 PM

The average net worth of the incoming freshmen House of Representatives (mostly Tea Party) was $1.4M... Richest of any freshman class in the history of the US...

And these people hate taxes... Duhhhhh!!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Janie
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 12:17 AM

Good on you, Suffet, and thanks for sharing your views as well as your experiences.

I doubt, however, based on news reports, that everyone involved with OWS demonstrations share either your expressed view in your last post or ake's view that capitalism is the root of all evil. My understanding is the protests are about unregulated capitalism, i.e. capitalism run riot. Very different from a paradigm that philosophically opposes capitalism and considers it an entirely "wrong,"entirely exploitive, or entirely ineffective socioecomic philosophy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 12:46 AM

"Michael Moore supports the protest." A Hollywood producer who really gives a shit about humanity. The USA could use more like him. Every idiot who shot down Obama's health reform should be sentenced to a month of watching Sicko.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 12:47 AM

Saw a great bumpersticker:

I'll accept that corporations are people when Texas executes one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 01:43 AM

Lemme see now...Soros funds 'Move on', and SIEU, and Obama, among other things, and you think Obama doesn't endorse the protesters?

Bobert rags on me for at least a dozen posts, about my exposing the Fed, for the crooks they are, and I call for them to be abolished, investigated, and put on trial...now the protesters was to end the Fed, and Bobert is ALL for it!

Lizzie: "Anger will spill over into Violence, for as Bruce says so often, if you have nothing to lose, then you feel you have everything to gain..

It is my belief we are now in the middle of World War III."

Ah, you're onto something there....but the guys who are staging it are the finance boys funding BOTH sides and playing them against the middle! What they want is complete control, digital (cashless)money, and microchips IN all their 'citizens'...and death to all those who will oppose them.
That is not too hard to figure out.
The next balloon to burst, is the surprise when a lot of you wake up!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 07:32 AM

Suffit....The system just loves non violent protest, it buys time to paint the protesters as Anarchists, Communists,etc etc......I know from personal experience that before long they become isolated and their motives misrepresented.

I dont need to ask anyone how it works, as I have fought Capitalism all my life.

Unity is a must, and for the left,that means compromise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 07:42 AM

Gotta go for a bit, Ake. But I'll tell you about wing chun when I get back. It may change your thinking on that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 09:13 AM

My new favorite Bumper Sticker:
"If your solution to the country's problems will fit on a bumper sticker, please don't vote"


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 09:38 AM

Alex Jones on Occupy The Federal Reserve


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 10:07 AM

Gosh, Lizzie, I hadn't seen that before. Very interesting!..and a lot of what he was saying is true!...and VERY close to what I've been harping on to our fellow Mudcatter left extremist, armchair ideologues!!!

LIZZIE-BABES!!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 10:18 AM

One small group in yesterday's gathering were "Paul/2012" people... Some of the OWSers are kinda all over the place with their particular bones of contention... I can live with that... A couple had signs against the Federal Reserve, too... I can live with that... I mean, the general consensus is that the working class is getting screwed by the upper 1%... Everyone there, regardless of their per peeves, was on that page...

I think we do need, however, to talk about the realities of a Ron Paul presidency that would double the number of people living in poverty... I thinks some youngins think Paul is just about ending the wars so they don't fully think things out... Same with the Fed... I mean, we live in a global economy and if we have no way of regulation the value of our currency then we will lose market shares of US made goods... China does it... India does it... Europe does it... It is a tool to compete... The Fed may not be perfect but without it we are taking one of our most powerful tools out of the tool box and watching even more unemployment...

I have no problems articulating this as I continue with this current group of folks... Some times you just have to take someone and do a one-on-one with them...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 10:36 AM

Bobert: "I think we do need, however, to talk about the realities of a Ron Paul presidency that would double the number of people living in poverty..."......and so on and so forth..blah blah..

I think the FED is the root of all your misplaced, ridiculous 'information'. I think you ought to look in THAT direction, and get off your Democratic Party shill routine. It's been LONG overdue!
I just read the 'Popular views on Obama' thread for the first time, in a REAL long time..and you are getting the snot whipped out of you...and its for only ONE thing.....your block-headed adherence to the Democrat hypocrisy....Hey, do you think I like to see my fellow musician friends get beat up, and take the fall, over a pack of lies, they happen to believe in..and then start peddling?
Step back, take a look
And you Republicans should do the same thing.
You are both in control by your cronies!.....and they are extorting both parties, and the American public, as well as Europe, and the mid-east.
The party politics game is wearing out.
Gosh, maybe there will be the 'Anti-Party Party'!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 11:10 AM

Putting one's faith in either the Democrats or the Republicans to solve the country's problems is like expecting one's problems to be solved by a choice between...

Hitler and Mussolini

Stalin and Mao Tse-Tung

Al Capone and Lucky Luciano

Pretty Boy Floyd and Baby Face Nelson

Ronald McDonald and the A & W Great Root Bear

Peter Griffin and Homer Simpson

Yes, you may have your personal "favorite" out of any of the above pairs of so-called "choices"......but don't kid yourself that it's going to solve your problems! It's going to add to your problems.

And yet, you appear to have no other choice. Could that be because the game is fixed and your vote is just a rubber stamp for those who control the game? Who is the little man behind the curtain in the Land of Oz? I'll give you a clue. It's not just one man. It's many men and a few women. It's a consortium of special interests, and you don't get to vote either for them or against them, because your electoral system simply doesn't give you any way to do that, because the consortium of special interests pre-selects the candidates you get to vote for...in all but a very few cases...simply because it takes a lot of money to undertake and win an election campaign...and the consortium of special interests are the primary source of that money. They definitely pre-select the candidates for the top positions, such as the president.

And that is why the president works for THEM, not for you, once he's in office.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 11:12 AM

Greetings:

From the very beginnings of the United States of America, monetary policy was one of the nation's great divisive issues. It was what was behind Shays' rebellion, Hamilton's plan to for the federal government to assume the states' debts, the struggles over the First and Second Bank of the United States, the Panic of 1837, the issuance of Greenbacks (US Notes, i.e. unsecured paper currency), the repeal of bimetalism (ie. a dual gold and silver standard with the ratio fixed by law) in 1873, The Bland-Allison Silver Purchase Act of 1878, the Sherman Silver Purchase Act of 1890, William Jennings Bryan's "Cross of Gold" speech, and more. By the beginning of the 20th century there were hard money Democrats, hard money Republicans, soft money Democrats, and soft money Republicans, as well as many voices from minor parties, all tugging in different directions. So in 1913, the factions of the two major parties agreed on a truce that would take the question of monetary policy out of the political arena (i.e. Congress) and turn it over to a board of supposedly non-partisan experts. That truce was the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, and that board of supposedly non-partisan experts would be almost entirely composed of bankers. So it has been for the past 98 years.

Ron Paul and his supporters are delusional if they think the USA can return to the gold standard, or even to bimetalism. Tying our country's money supply to a commodity, especially one like gold which would leave us at the mercy of Russia, is pure lunacy. We need a system that can regulate the value of our currency in a rational way. Right now we have the Federal Reserve System. Can it be made more accountable and democratic without returning our country to the pitched battles of the 18th and 19th centuries? Probably, but that's not what the anti-Fed people are asking for. Are they?

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 08:19 PM

Well stated, Suffet... The anti- government people will ***believe*** and anti-government conspiracy theory that the wackos can think up with no regard to either knowledge of economics or facts...

Normal...

"Well, the scientists say
It'll all wash away
But we don't believe
in them any more...

Flat earthers UNITE!!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 09:55 PM

So... where is it all going? I mean, what is going to happen in the end of it all? War with China?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 10:03 PM

Ain't about war with China, gn-ze... Neither economy needs that... Both need to grow at 4%... Not one at 8% and the other at 2%...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 10:30 PM

Meanwhile, please click here for a YouTube video of me singing my song Union Warriors at the Occupy Wall Street encampment in New York City on Friday, October 7, 2011. Yes, I am playing my sensational Felix the Cat Martin guitar.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 10:43 PM

The Tea Party is anti-tax, but the original Boston tea party was against the BRITISH taxing America and sending the money back to Britain. Alexander Hamilton the first U.S. Treasury secretary built America's financial policy based on the need to tax Americans. He knew that to run a prosperous and secure independent country requires taxing the population - equally.

Hamilton established new taxes on liquor, tea, and coffee. His plan was an economic success: the federal government quickly established a solid credit rating, consolidated its debts at low interest rates, and began paying them down rapidly. His plan also led to the new nation's first anti-tax rebellion. In western states, farmers refused to pay the new tax on whiskey (which was sometimes used as a medium of exchange), leading to armed rebellion in Pennsylvania. In 1794, President Washington raised a federal militia and dispatched it to western Pennsylvania. The Whiskey Rebellion collapsed, cementing the federal government's power to levy and collect taxes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 11:00 PM

In other words the current Tea Party has hijacked the views of the original founding fathers and misrepresented them.

Why are people occupying Wall St? Bankers took advantage of deregulation to cause massive inflation through reckless lending. Paying themselves big bucks - then were bailed out by taxpayers when everything collapsed.

The upper 1% of Americans are now taking in nearly a quarter of the nation's income every year. The top 1 percent control 40 percent of the wealth. Twenty-five years ago, the corresponding figures were 12 percent at the top held 33% of the wealth.

How can this be democratic? Look to Norway and other northern European countries for a better economic model. And with this goes better social justioe for their people as well.

I hope Washington listens to these protests - the people in the streets can't access politicians the way lobbyists can, this way they are getting heard. Follow the REAL traditions of the Founding Fathers and tax the big boys, like everyone else, and spread the wealth into schools, hospitals and jobs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 11:06 PM

Yeah, this entire movement is about justice...

Period...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Etan
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 12:21 AM

I've taken a day off from Occupy Wall Street to return to normal life as a family guy, and to nurse my sore feet. I will tell you what I've seen, from my perspective, and I'll answer any non-argumentative questions.

I'm not sleeping in Liberty Plaza, which is already overcrowded, but spending a great deal of my non-working time there. What we do mostly is talk & listen and try to figure out what we agree on as reasonable goals and reasonable strategies to get them.

Political opinions in the plaza range from Ron Paul libertarian to the usual array of communist factions. However, most people are in the middle: you can call them frustrated progressive Democrats and you probably wouldn't be far off. I think most people in the plaza would describe themselves as patriotic. They want to see America set back on a course that provides some degree of economic security and democracy. I think most would agree with Roosevelt's second bill of rights and Eisenhower's appraisal of the military industrial complex.

The average person sleeping in the plaza is necessarily young and jobless though often college educated with a history of work. Conditions are very rough without tents, port-o-sans, or showers. There is almost no organization of sleeping areas. People are tossing their foam pads, sleeping bags, and tarps wherever they can, which is often quite close to foot traffic. There is constant city noise, even during quiet hours, and there is the constant threat of a police raid in the middle of the night. People are running on short sleep and with much tension, and they are often cold and wet. It makes your worst festival experience look like a luxury hotel.

Older people usually drop by during the day, as I do. Some are members of the unions that support the action, some are old leftists, and some are just frustrated with the state of the economy and corporate power. It's true that the 'kids' are running the show. They are inexperienced, but they're learning.

Saturday's two marches and rally in Washington Square Park pretty much went off without a negative incident. We have been described as an unruly mob, etc. We showed that to be a lie by our behavior during this event. Police instructions were observed during the march. The rally did not disrupt anything besides a few buskers pitches. Nothing was looted, vandalized, trashed, etc. People behaved themselves responsibly. Even the punk kids have begun to understand our role in convincing the average working person that we are on their side.

Mark Ross, Bruce Murdoch, and I have worked up a new version of "Which Side Are You On". I have an updated version of "Whitehouse Blues" which has been well received. I'm working on an updated "Keep Your Eyes on the Prize" or "Keep Your Hand on the Plow." I hope to organize small groups of street singers to go out into the streets of the financial district during work week rush and lunch hours. New York is generally tolerant of unamplified sidewalk busking. I will take suggestions for other easy to learn and sing political songs.

I realize that I've been rambling on here. To paraphrase Mark Twain, I'd have written a shorter post, but I didn't have enough time.

If you have questions about what's going on, please email me directly, and I'll try to answer. I'll post the new lyrics to White House Blues with a Lyric Add heading. Best wishes to everyone.

-- Etan


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 12:32 AM

I guess the bottom line is Bobert's BIG MEDIA blackballing is another Bobert "fact"

If you have the time Bobert, please define justice.

I hope you won't avoid it with your usual blowhard "do it yourself" avoidance routine like you do about the "shitload of Dixiecrats" that you know nothing about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 02:20 AM

Etan, thank you for your on-the-spot report.

I'll try to think of some good songs.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 06:32 AM

The movement may be about justice guys ......but Capitalism shure isn't, in fact Capitalism is about injustice, as you have all just witnessed.

The bank bailouts, the printing of money, the attacks on public services, were all unjust, but very necessary to keep the system alive.
Do you want your cake and eat it? Do you really believe you can have Capitalism AND justice?

To the people who run Mr Obama and the system, we have become uncompetitive, useless and completely dispensible, any growth in our economy will now be engendered by the exploitation of people and resources in the East.....we will be viewed as simply consumers with very little money to purchase consumables.

Our lifestyle is about to take an nosedive, appropriate to our value to the system.

We cant fight them, we cant appeal to their sense of justice, we are of no commercial value to them, our only chance is to understand that the lifestyle we have grown accustomed to has gone for ever, no tweaking will ever repair what is an inevitable part of the Capitalist cycle.......Good news????.....Now we are free to explore alternatives, but dont let anyone tell you that these alternatives will be either "democratic", easy, or "liberal".....survival trumps any of those.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 07:44 AM

Saw a sit-in of students last week in Seville Cathedral, protesting the cuts in education, witnessed 2 street demonstrations there and on our way home on Sunday we passed the Wall Street-type protest-alike outside the Central Bank in Dublin's Dame Street.
Good luck to all
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 09:04 AM

Good points, Etan...

Here in Occupy Charlotte, it's about the same... Maybe 5% fringe people and 95% middle/moderate progressive Dems and Greens...

There's one trap that I think we don't need to be getting into at this point and that would be specific policy positions... I mean, there's a world of difference between demanding campaign finance reform and getting into the nuts and bolts... Just demanding "justice" in the way we elect officials is, IMHO, as far as OWS needs to go and then be ready to see what the folks in Congress do about out demand...

This is why, again IMHO, we need to push hard for "justice" on all fronts, demand that our leaders will act to correct the corruption and be ready to call them if they play ballgames...

BTW, Occupy Charlotte's next demonstration/general assemble meeting is for this Saturday at 3:00 at Trade and Davidson for anyone within driving range...

As for the usual pest, Saws... It wasn't until 700 people were arrested in New York that OWS got any attention from BIG MEDIA... But I'm not going to play any ballgames with you on this thread because you are not capable of looking at the big picture...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: ollaimh
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 12:01 PM

the "capitalism" offered by the right in the usa is an extension of the british "laissez faire" capitalism of the old empire. chri hedges has called it inverted totalitarianism. i prefer just totalitarianism capitalism, or militray capitalism. it's free enterprse for only those conected to the corporate elite and poverty and death to everybody else. totalitarianisn capitalism wil devour the planet and render higher life forms unsustainable at the rate it's going.

they are more interested in war and eternal oil dependancy that a rational economy for people. i supported the wall street bailout but in a different way. take back equity in the banks bailed out for the cash. not a giveaway. then you can do the forensic accounting to find the real criminals of our time. however we got this give away instead . showing that free enterprise and competition is only for the poor and unconnected not for the corporate elte.

of course the whole mess was the direct result of the foolishness of the bush years of an ruinously expensive war in iraq and un believable deficits. if that kind of money had been put into alternate energy resourses we would be well on the way to energy self sufficiency in north america now! and we could let the saudis et al drift back into the obscurity they deserve.

however that wouldn't feed the corporate military budgets and the oil boys like dick cheney and buch. remember cheney was head of haliburton.

americans are so easily rilled up by red herring issues i don't know how you get controll of te republic from the corporate elite, but untill it happens the disaster will get worse and worse. remember we haven't even hit the reall problems comming from global warming and resource exhaustion. and are we prepared. or even tinking of preparing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 12:10 PM

"Despite his rhetorical attacks on Wall Street, a study by the Sunlight Foundation's Influence Project shows that President Barack Obama has received more money from Wall Street than any other politician over the past 20 years, including former President George W. Bush.
In 2008, Wall Street's largesse accounted for 20 percent of Obama's total take, according to Reuters.
When asked by The Daily Caller to comment about President Obama's credibility when it comes to criticizing Wall Street, the White House declined to reply....

In fact, the Sunlight Foundation, a nonpartisan watchdog group that tracks lobbyist spending and influence in both parties, found that President Obama has received more money from Bank of America than any other candidate dating back to 1991.
An examination of the numbers shows that Obama took in $421,242 in campaign contributions in 2008 from Bank of America's executives, PACs and employees, which exceeded its prior record contribution of $329,761 to President George W. Bush in 2004.
According to the Center for Responsive Politics, Wall Street firms also contributed more to Obama's 2008 campaign than they gave to Republican nominee John McCain.
"The securities and investment industry is Obama's second largest source of bundlers, after lawyers, at least 56 individuals have raised at least $8.9 million for his campaign," Massie Ritsch wrote in a Sept. 18, 2008 entry on the Center for Responsive Politics's OpenSecrets blog.
By the end of Barack Obama's 2008 campaign, executives and others connected with Wall Street firms, such as Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, Citigroup, UBS AG, JPMorgan Chase, and Morgan Stanley, poured nearly $15.8 million into his coffers.
Goldman Sachs contributed slightly over $1 million to Obama's 2008 presidential campaign, compared with a little over $394,600 to the 2004 Bush campaign. Citigroup gave $736,771 to Obama in 2008, compared with $320,820 to Bush in 2004. Executives and others connected with the Swiss bank UBS AG donated $539,424 to Obama's 2008 campaign, compared with $416,950 to Bush in 2004. And JP Morgan Chase gave Obama's campaign $808,799 in 2008, but did not show up among Bush's top donors in 2004, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.
Obama's close relationship with JP Morgan Chase was highlighted earlier this year when he tapped Bill Daley, a former top executive with the bank, to replace Rahm Emanuel as his chief of staff.
Wall Street's generosity to Obama didn't end with his 2008 campaign either. Wall Street donors contributed $4.8 million to underwrite Obama's inauguration, according to a Jan. 15, 2009 Reuters report.
So far Wall Street has raised $7.2 million in the current electoral cycle for President Obama, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. Obama's 2012 Wall Street bundlers include people like Jon Corzine, former Goldman Sachs CEO and former New Jersey governor; Azita Raji, a former investment banker for JP Morgan; and Charles Myers, an executive with the investment bank Evercore Partners...."



http://news.yahoo.com/obama-attacks-banks-while-raking-wall-street-dough-044804642.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 12:15 PM

Bobert: "
"Well, the scientists say
It'll all wash away
But we don't believe
in them any more...

Flat earthers UNITE!!!!"


They did!!...and formed political parties!!!! (Yours included, BTW)!!

Bobert: "As for the usual pest, Saws... It wasn't until 700 people were arrested in New York that OWS got any attention from BIG MEDIA... But I'm not going to play any ballgames with you on this thread because you are not capable of looking at the big picture..."

FALSE!!! It was one the 'news' before ANYONE was arrested....unless you get your 'news' from re-runs of 'Felix the Cat'....(which wouldn't surprise me!)

................

Do not confuse 'capitalism' with 'corporatism'...and furthermore GLOBALIST CORPORATISM. The are TWO distinct things.
One is akin to 'communism', and the other is a way to get compensated for your work.

(Actually, I'm pretty tired with ALL 'isms'! You'd think by now people would get tired of segregating themselves into 'elite' groups, based on manipulated ideologies, and return to the FAMILY of man!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 12:29 PM

That is exactly what we NEED to do GfS.....but first we have to understand that humanity has a finite standard of living.
If a section goes over that standard.....another section suffers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 01:39 PM

Say what all ya want: OWS is happening, and that's the long and short of it.

Thanks to both Steve and Etan for the info. We don't get all that much from the 'news'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 01:53 PM

Here's the deal, bb...

Who gave what to whom is no longer traceable... Anything that anyone writes about this amount or than amount has nothing to do with reality... The Supreme Court has ruled that it is none of our business who, domestic of foreign, buys our elections and owns the folks in Congress...

This is reality...

So much for paid rightie bloggers who pour 40 hours a week into playing the "numbers games"... If the left had those resources and hired an equal number of bloggers, stat men, etc they would undoubtedly turn the story 180 degrees around...

The problem here is that until we find a way to balance the playing field, where all views are heard and BIG money is taken out of politics, we will not have democracy...

That's what OWS is about...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 01:54 PM

BTW, good to hear from you, bruce...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 02:07 PM

"Who gave what to whom is no longer traceable... Anything that anyone writes about this amount or than amount has nothing to do with reality."

The numbers in the article posted are those that ARE TRACEABLE- showing that Obama is more "Bought and Paid For" than even GWB.

YET YOU still make claims about the Right, and deny them about the Left....

Seems like YOU have a real problem with looking at ANY facts that are brought up, unless they support what YOU want us to believe.




"where all views are heard and BIG money is taken out of politics, "

You mean like NOT calling anyone who opposes the policies of the present administration Racist, and NOT letting the present administration buy the election as they did in 2008, spending far more money than those who disagreed with them???

Or do you only apply balance to the OTHER side??







btw, congrats on the Blues Challenge win.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 03:04 PM

"This is reality"- No one has it right except me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 03:35 PM

...from a recent post:

"Obama's close relationship with JP Morgan Chase was highlighted earlier this year when he tapped Bill Daley, a former top executive with the bank, to replace Rahm Emanuel as his chief of staff."

That say a lot about Obama's allegiances.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 04:06 PM

As far as I can see, Obama's allegiance is to the same basic cartel of special interests that Bush's allegiance was to....disguised by the illusion of the 2-party system, a two-headed monster that fights public battles against itself to keep the public divided against themselves just like people cheering for two baseball teams at the World Series. The 2 teams are employed by the same league. The league cashes in when you buy your ticket to "see the game". You pick the team you like the best, hate the other team, and the game goes on. The team that wins the championship (the election) gets a big bonus and gets to hold the cup (office) for 2 to 4 years (depending on which level of the office). This ensure that those 2 bogus teams will play damn hard whenever they're out on the field, and they will use any dirty tactic to win and secure the spoils of victory, but they don't do it for you. They work for their rich owners and for the league of rich owners...and their own personal gain.

It's a charade. The people you elect don't work for you any more than the baseball players you go to see at the World Series. They work for their owners. And who are their owners? Bankers and corporate CEOs, that's who. You know...those people who make 1,000 times more money than you ever will, but don't work any harder than you do? That's who owns the Republican and Democratic Parties...a set of corporate vampires who suck the lifeblood from society and make money from waging war.

Your traditional loyalty to one party and your hatred of the other is not going to deliver you from the oppression you are under...only sink you deeper in the illusion. And it will end up making you hate one another. This thread (and all the other political threads) are stark proof of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 06:09 PM

Exactly, the money goes both ways... The corporations "cover themselves like bus station whores"...

OWSers are saying in general that all this is doing is preventing *US* from having a democracy... When 90% of candidates who spend the most $$$ win and there is no control over who contributes to whom, with no disclosure, then we will get nothing but corruption...

And, bb, what your blogger has done is narrowed the focus so much that if this were a submarine with a hole the size of Volkswagen and another the size of a pin hole your blogger is ignoring the VW hole and diverting attention away toward the pinhole... This is the tactic of the rigth... Never talk about the big picture... Always find some detail to make into the big picture...

The big picture is that we have BIG $$$ running out goevernment...

I don't give a rat's ass where this amount went or that amount... We saw billion$$$ of ads that were for this guy or that guy that we frankly have no idea who was buying them...

Do you agree that we don't want the Chinese to own our Congress???

Well, they can according to your Supreme Court...

We need to restore a workable democracy... If we can't do that then we are going to be a failed state...

Bob (OccupyCharlotte.com)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 06:37 PM

This morning, on my local NPR affiliate, I heard a discussion with Seattle's mayor Mike McGinn about "Occupy Seattle," the local mirror of "Occupy Wall Street." Steve Scher (an excellent interviewer) asked Mayor McGinn about some of the restrictions he had placed on the demonstrators who were gathering and camping at Westlake Park. The mayor responded that he was not allowing them to pitch tents and camp there overnight because that was a violation of long-standing city ordinances. He offered the demonstrators the alternative of camping on the large lawn next to City Hall, a few blocks South of Westlake Park.

As the interview progressed, Mayor McGinn indicated that he thoroughly understood what motivates the protesters and, fundamentally, is in agreement with them. He cited statistics about the inequitable distribution of wealth in this country and deplored the city services that he was forced to cut and the people he had to lay off due to budget constraints brought about by the country's sick economy. This, along with Seattle's stalled light rail system and the egregious traffic gridlock in and around the city because the city simply does not have the funds to fix it.

In the last half hour of the program (interrupted from time to time by the station's current ongoing "beg-a-thon"), as he usually does, Steve opened the phones and invited people who had questions or comments to call in. The first caller exploded all over the mayor, reading him out for his allowing anarchists and hooligans to use city facilities and accused him of being (oh, horrors!!) a Socialist!!

That, of course, is the ultimate curse. And like many of this caller's ilk, I'm quite sure that when he calls the city to bitch about the pot-hole in the street in front of his house, he's counting on certain "socialistic" practices to come out and fix it for him (rather than pay for it himself). There are a lot of really clueless people who, nevertheless, have the power of the vote.

The rest of the callers were generally saner and better informed.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 07:20 PM

Look carefully. OWS is not an Obama rally. BB's post is intended to start an argument on another topic. OWS is not about supporting Obama. He can choose for himself which side he is on. And, I will expect him to do so.

I suggest taht everyone and everyone go to their local Occupy gathering - judge for yourselves whether these people are puppets or frustrated *individuals*. Until you do that, you are talking out your arse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 07:27 PM

You notice, TIA, that my rebuttals to bb don't mention Obama once... Or anyone else for that matter...

I get OWS... It's about "democracy" in action... That's what scares the right... They hare democracy because it means that we elect people differently and people can't buy power... Purdy simple...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 07:40 PM

Yup. Everybody I am seeing and talking to is not getting any money from anyone to be there. Nobody is bought. And the 1% are scared shitless that we can't be bought. So they are trying to convince the Faux viewing sheep that we are a dangerous mob.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 07:46 PM

BINGO, TIA!!!

They are scared shitless...

Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 07:54 PM

It could become something... from "nothing". Hey... if all of the people who got fucked over by big business protest and shut things down, maybe big business will have to listen to them. Of course, let's hope big business have already fired off all their cruise missiles bombing people 8000 miles away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 12:03 AM

I don't think OWS is about supporting Obama. I don't think it's about supporting any political party. It's about exposing and resisting the domination of our societies by a criminal financial elite which has been controlling ALL the major political parties through corporate funding of their campaigns and through lobbying politicians in office and through playing totally irresponsible financial games with the public's money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:11 AM

Yeah, LH... Whereas most of the OWSers will either vote for Obama or not vote, this is kinda a sidebar movement... That's why I like it and will continue with the Charlotte group... This conversation is long overdue... The right wing has done everything in their power to change the conversation...

On the Washington Post discussions all the righties want to talk about is some guy who used a cop car as a bathroom... What the righties absolutely will not accept is that one thing that every group has in common is that the movement is non-violent... Everyone pledges in the "General Assembly" to abide to rules of non-violence toward other folks and ****property****... But the right gleefully says over and over and over (100s of times) the same mantra about OWSers pooping on cop cars... That is their entire response other than accusing the OWSers of wanting a handout...

No matter...

It's up to *US* to ignore the "ignor"ant and just keep pointing out that America needs to restore democracy and justice... If we do that, everything else is just details...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:36 AM

I have spent six days at Occupy Wall Street here in New York City, and I assure you that it is not a pro-Obama event. If anything, people are just as critical of Obama as they are of all the other politicians, Democrats as well as Republicans. Occupy Wall Street is about how corporate wealth and power have co-opted, subverted, bought off, twisted, undermined, thwarted, and dismembered American democracy. If anything, the Case of Barack Obama is Exhibit 1.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:37 AM

Chongo D. Chimp must be the mastermind behind all of this OWS stuff.

Don't watch alphabet television networks, but Adbuster ads promoting Occupy Wall Street will keep you safe from risk of mental illness.

The Canadian "Mental Environmentalists" Face behind Occupy Wall Street
canadafreepress.com October 6, 2011

If you are a factory owner or in the business of making widgets in today's America, you are a capitalist pig and Occupy Wall Street protesters will use you as an excuse for anarchy with violent signs that read: "Eat the Rich".

If you are a Michael Moore or a Susan Sarandon, making millions in the film world, Wall Street protesters will eat you up, sing your praises and bow forever at just the mention of your name.

As George Orwell penned long ago, "Some animals are more equal than others".

The face of the Occupy Wall Street protest is a Canadian one.

It's the face that belongs to AdBusters owner Kalle Lasn, but can't be found on AdBusters website. Canada Free Press (CFP) went to the Way Back Machine to bring Lasn forward today.

But Lasn takes full credit for the protests that started with Wall Street and are spreading across North America to other cities in today's Globe and Mail.

"This was all cooked up right here at Adbusters. It's a Canadian adventure," he said."

"Egypt and Tahrir Square proved that a few smart people on the Internet can call for something and, if it captures the public's imagination, it can get tens of thousands of people out on the streets."
Lasn collaborated on the book Design Anarchy (2006) with fellow social activists Michael Simons and Paul Shoebridge.

This is the biography written by Kalle Lasn revived from Way Back Machine: "I was born in Tallinn, Estonia, during the middle of World War II. In 1944, as the Russian army approached Tallinn, my family escaped to Germany. We lived in a displaced persons' camp for five years. When I was seven we immigrated to Australia where I received my education, graduating with a B.Sc. in pure and applied mathematics. My first job was with the Australian Defense Department where I played computer-simulated war games in the Pacific Ocean. At age 23 I headed for Europe, but my boat stopped in Yokohama for two days. I fell in love with Japan and was unable to get back on the boat. During the '60s I ran a market research company in Tokyo and made enough money to travel around the world for three years. Then I returned to Japan, married Masako Tominaga and we immigrated to Canada. I started a documentary film making company. Over the next 15 years, my documentaries were broadcast on PBS, CBC and around the world, winning over 15 international awards.

"In 1989 I produced a 30-second TV spot about the disappearing old-growth forests of the Pacific Northwest, but to my dismay, none of the commercial TV stations would sell me any airtime. The Media Foundation, Adbusters Magazine and Powershift Advertising Agency were all born out of this incident and the realization that there is no democracy on the airwaves. I've spent the last thirteen years editing and publishing Adbusters, launching social marketing campaigns like Buy Nothing Day and TV Turnoff Week, and fighting legal battles for the right to access the public airwaves."

According to Wikipedia, "Adbusters Media Foundation is a not-for-profit, anti-consumerist, pro-environment organization founded in 1989 by Kalle Lasn and Bill Schmalz in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. The foundation describes itself as a "global network of artists, activists, writers, pranksters, students, educators and entrepreneurs who want to advance the new social activist movement of the information age.

"The Adbusters Media Foundation publishes the reader-supported, advertising-free Adbusters, an activist magazine with an international circulation of 120,000 devoted to challenging consumerism. Notable past and present contributors to the magazine include Christopher Hedges, Matt Taibbi, Bill McKibben, Jim Munroe, Douglas Rushkoff, Jonathan Barnbrook, David Graeber and others."

Before starting off the North American protest movement based on the so-called "Arab Spring", Adbuster's main claim to fame was "Mental Environmentalism".

While Environment giant Greenpeace, (which also originates from Canada) campaigns against pollution and takes to the seas to "Save the Whales", AdBusters' self-professed "greenthink' aims to "clean up the toxic areas of our mind".

The pollution of invading the privacy of the human "mind" is not mentioned.

The Adbuster greenthink is on the record describing how "Mental environmentalists argue that a whole range of phenomenon from the BP oil spill to the emergency of crony-democracy to the mass extinction of animals to the significant increase in mental illnesses are directly caused by the three thousand advertisements that assault our minds each day", though this is tagged with a Wikipedia notation "citation needed"

Don't watch alphabet television networks, but Adbuster ads promoting Occupy Wall Street will keep you safe from risk of mental illness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999 -- IMPORTANT READ, IMO.
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:51 AM

I have posted the article here rather than link to it. Paul Krugman was a Nobel Prize recipient (Economics) in 2008. He might be worth reading. It casts light on some recent rants against OWS.

Panic of the Plutocrats
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: October 9, 2011

It remains to be seen whether the Occupy Wall Street protests will change America's direction. Yet the protests have already elicited a remarkably hysterical reaction from Wall Street, the super-rich in general, and politicians and pundits who reliably serve the interests of the wealthiest hundredth of a percent.

And this reaction tells you something important — namely, that the extremists threatening American values are what F.D.R. called "economic royalists," not the people camping in Zuccotti Park.

Consider first how Republican politicians have portrayed the modest-sized if growing demonstrations, which have involved some confrontations with the police — confrontations that seem to have involved a lot of police overreaction — but nothing one could call a riot. And there has in fact been nothing so far to match the behavior of Tea Party crowds in the summer of 2009.

Nonetheless, Eric Cantor, the House majority leader, has denounced "mobs" and "the pitting of Americans against Americans." The G.O.P. presidential candidates have weighed in, with Mitt Romney accusing the protesters of waging "class warfare," while Herman Cain calls them "anti-American." My favorite, however, is Senator Rand Paul, who for some reason worries that the protesters will start seizing iPads, because they believe rich people don't deserve to have them.

Michael Bloomberg, New York's mayor and a financial-industry titan in his own right, was a bit more moderate, but still accused the protesters of trying to "take the jobs away from people working in this city," a statement that bears no resemblance to the movement's actual goals.

And if you were listening to talking heads on CNBC, you learned that the protesters "let their freak flags fly," and are "aligned with Lenin."

The way to understand all of this is to realize that it's part of a broader syndrome, in which wealthy Americans who benefit hugely from a system rigged in their favor react with hysteria to anyone who points out just how rigged the system is.

Last year, you may recall, a number of financial-industry barons went wild over very mild criticism from President Obama. They denounced Mr. Obama as being almost a socialist for endorsing the so-called Volcker rule, which would simply prohibit banks backed by federal guarantees from engaging in risky speculation. And as for their reaction to proposals to close a loophole that lets some of them pay remarkably low taxes — well, Stephen Schwarzman, chairman of the Blackstone Group, compared it to Hitler's invasion of Poland.

And then there's the campaign of character assassination against Elizabeth Warren, the financial reformer now running for the Senate in Massachusetts. Not long ago a YouTube video of Ms. Warren making an eloquent, down-to-earth case for taxes on the rich went viral. Nothing about what she said was radical — it was no more than a modern riff on Oliver Wendell Holmes's famous dictum that "Taxes are what we pay for civilized society."

But listening to the reliable defenders of the wealthy, you'd think that Ms. Warren was the second coming of Leon Trotsky. George Will declared that she has a "collectivist agenda," that she believes that "individualism is a chimera." And Rush Limbaugh called her "a parasite who hates her host. Willing to destroy the host while she sucks the life out of it."

What's going on here? The answer, surely, is that Wall Street's Masters of the Universe realize, deep down, how morally indefensible their position is. They're not John Galt; they're not even Steve Jobs. They're people who got rich by peddling complex financial schemes that, far from delivering clear benefits to the American people, helped push us into a crisis whose aftereffects continue to blight the lives of tens of millions of their fellow citizens.

Yet they have paid no price. Their institutions were bailed out by taxpayers, with few strings attached. They continue to benefit from explicit and implicit federal guarantees — basically, they're still in a game of heads they win, tails taxpayers lose. And they benefit from tax loopholes that in many cases have people with multimillion-dollar incomes paying lower rates than middle-class families.

This special treatment can't bear close scrutiny — and therefore, as they see it, there must be no close scrutiny. Anyone who points out the obvious, no matter how calmly and moderately, must be demonized and driven from the stage. In fact, the more reasonable and moderate a critic sounds, the more urgently he or she must be demonized, hence the frantic sliming of Elizabeth Warren.

So who's really being un-American here? Not the protesters, who are simply trying to get their voices heard. No, the real extremists here are America's oligarchs, who want to suppress any criticism of the sources of their wealth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:02 AM

That isn't news, Sawzaw. I mentioned it--although not with your degree of erudition--days back on this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:27 AM

Just another reason why I love Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:29 AM

Thanks for posting the Paul Krugman op-ed, bruceie... He fairly well sums up the situation...

And for "Exhibit A" all one has to do is go to washingtonpost.com and read the discussions... There are about 8 or 9 of the upper 1% who have literally camped out there 24/7 manning their front... It the same people who have tried 100s, maybe thousands, of times to change the conversation to "poo" or people wanting a "handout"...

They absolutely will not engage in any other conversation other than calling the folks who have something intelligent to say as socialists or morons!!! That, my friends, is the response of the super wealthy... Name calling and bogus stories about poo...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM

Greenpeace started here? I wasn't aware of that. Makes one proud to be Canadian!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:44 AM

Not likely. You guys still club seals, I think. Hey, I hear some greedy folks here have nice pelts. If we work things out right, we can send them way up north and you can get sloppy seconds on the furs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:56 AM

Oops. Sorry- I missed the bit about Greenpeace. Zoned out by the time I hit that part.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: ollaimh
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 12:11 PM

i read a book by neil fergeson published before the
crash" called the ascent of money. he pointed out that over eighty percent of the financial instruments being traded and sold on wall street didn't exist in 1990. they made a lot of money creating stocks and bonds out of thin air, by packaging exisiting ones, then sold derivatives and derivitives on derivitives, and options on derivitivies, etc. with the cash they suddessfully lobbied congress to remove the already limp wristed regulations, and went to town! the result was a classic bubble.

now in canada we had a government that may have been too business oriented but ran surplusses for eleven years, and refused the banks permission to engage in the risky financial instruments being created in wall street, they were pilloried by the business community, but eureka! we had no bamk failures! we had no insurance company failures! no mortgage company failures ! no trust company conpany failres!

and or big five bankc are among the biggest in the world because we have bank consolidation--few or no mlocal banks, and our bankc play on the world stage, especially in the carribean, parts of south america and europe.

wow , regulation. what a concept. don't let the crooks from military capitaqlism steal all the money! they did it oin the eighties with the chicago mercantile exchange scandal where the largest commidities exchange in the world was a bucket shop with over a third of the people involved on the take, then the nineties the savings and loan five finger discount for the big corporations then the tech bubble then the great crash. they will steal all the money if you leave them unregulated. and calling any attempt at regulation socialism is just stupidity. there are fer instance no socialist governments in europe any more! but they regulate. canada's regulation was not socialism, the prime minister and finance minister who was the artichect of the whole regulatory system was a major corporate owner! but he was a canadian liberal who believed in corporate responsibility.

if you don't regylate they will strsl all the money!! it's that simple.

when your military has gifted you a whole un exploited continent, the biggest lottery win in mankinds history, if you caqn't make that work your system is totally screwed up! any body but idiots can make north america the wealthiest palces in the world. anybody but the american right wingnuts


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 12:12 PM

Hi Dick,



The actions that the protesters are looking for and hope to achieve is for the wealthy CEO's and corporations to pay their fair share of taxes, for cut backs on the Military Industrial Complex and bring soldiers home from the failed wars. Congress as run by Republicans and wishy-washy Democrats will not listen to what the people are saying. They have too much invested economically in the status quo and are controlled by corporate purse strings. There is also a demand for a systemic change in the way our government functions by ridding of lobbying, developing regulations that have teeth, such as Glass Steagal, eliminating the ruse that "corporations are people" and are entitled to buy "free speech", which is not really free. The important aspect of this movement is that the dots are finally being connected, the exploitation of the American working and middle class, the prolonged wars, the control of government by corporations, the exploitation of insurance providers, the malfeasance of energy company polluters, the
disenfranchisement of the electorate, the takeover of congress by Republican special interest groups such as ALEC (The American Legislative Exchange Council) which seeks to promote bills by buying legislators, and the abject failure of Libertarianism, "trickle down" economics, and the trashing of government by those who game the system.

What's not to understand?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 12:24 PM

Sawzaw, Adbusters didn't invent our economic problems, they found a way to describe them. These problems were there before Adbusters came on the scene. The Chongo Chimps are the ones who don't get it.

BB most people bend the facts to fit their perception of the world. There are no objective facts that are not open to interpretation. Even gravity is defied by air travel.

The important aspect of the OWS movement is that it reflects the views of the participants who come from all walks of life and are not, as the media deprecatingly refers to them, pot smoking hippies.

Otherwise the police wouldn't have to be so brutal in their crackdown.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 12:46 PM

Strings,

"BB most people bend the facts to fit their perception of the world"

Agreed, yet most here deny it when THEY are caught doing do.



"There are no objective facts that are not open to interpretation."

Agan, the majority HERE do NOT permit any interpretation that does not fit their agendas.




" Even gravity is defied by air travel."

Not a true statement. Air travel does not in any way defy gravity- The aerodynamic lift provides a counter to it, but planes will fall out of the sky when that does not counterbalance the force of gravity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 01:29 PM

Actually, bruce, nothing that you have just said changes the facts on the ground about the OWS movement... Strings hit 'um pretty well with his 12:12 post...

As for "permitting" different opinions, that's not true... I don't believe that any of your posts have been deleted... Yeah, you do seem to camp out on the right side of the divide and it's true that most of the folks here are on the "other" side but, hey, this is a fold musicians web site... What would you expect??? Folk musicians tend to be more liberal than the general population... That's just simple reality... I mean, if I go to a Young Republican website with my ideas then I'm not going to find too many people who agree with me, if any... That's reality...

But I'd rather have a Mudcat with you as part of the community than one without you... It's not about permitting or not permitting but accepting someone who doesn't agree with the majority... No one here that I know of dislikes you for your views... You, for the most part, present them without malice...

BTW, how's that school coming???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 02:57 PM

"The Chongo Chimps are the ones who don't get it." - Stringsinger

What the heck are you talkin' about, Mister? I am 100% in favour of the Occupy Wall Street movement! I say more power to the protestors. The bankers and mega-corporates have robbed and impoverished this society and co-opted government. They are destroyin' the middle class and playin' pyramid schemes with money they made outta thin air. They are crooks! They oughta be arrested and put on trial for grand larceny from the public purse.

It is asinine to pretend, as Sawzaw does, that this movement is anti-capitalist. What a laugh. Corporatism is NOT capitalism! As a matter of fact, corporatism as it is practiced today destroys traditional capitalism, destroys local jobs, puts American out of work, sends the jobs overseas, and shuts down small businesses everywhere. Corporatism and international banking congolomerates are wiping traditional capitalism and the American middle class who used to benefit from traditional capitalism off the face of North America.

This is the real truth that the Republicans cannot face up to. Their policies are killing capitalism and replacing it with centralized rule by huge banks and huge corporations...and it ends up lookin' more like a new form of Stalinism with a big dollar sign stuck on its face to me.

Get this, Stringsinger: I AM a member of the 99%!

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 03:48 PM

Bruce, the Paul Krugman article you posted at 11 Oct 11-09:51 a.m.?

Excellent! Clear and very much to the point. Thank you for posting that!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 04:02 PM

Thank you Don and Bobert.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 04:52 PM

A good column in the NY Times today.
The Milquetoast Radicals
David Brooks, Oct. 10, 2011

Nothing but trivial sideshows over the past two years (E. g., The Occupy Wall Street). Extracts-

"A group that divides the world between the pure 99 percent and the evil one percent will have nothing to say about education reform, Medicare reform, tax reform, wage stagnation or polarization. They will have nothing to say about the way Americans have overconsumed and over borrowed. These are problems that implicate a much broader swath of society than the top 1 percent."
"..... since the left no longer believes in the nationalization of industry, these "radicals" really have no systematic reforms to fall back on."
The article goes on to castigate the small thinkers, including both Obama and the Republicans.

See Matt Miller, The Third Party Stump Speech We Need.
".... slash corporate taxes and raise energy taxes, aggressively use market forces and public provisions to bring down health care costs; raise capital requirements for banks; require national service; balance the budget by 2018."
Matt Miller, Washington Post, published September 25, 2011.
The results will be a "more competitive, sustainable and just America."
Miller makes a strong case against "the Democrats' timid half- measures and the Republicans' mindless anti-government creed."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-third-party-stump-speech-we-need/2011/09/22/gIQAj8wK_story.html
(or google title of story)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 04:58 PM

From The Times "passionate, but pointless"


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 05:10 PM

That's right, Sawz... The chimp may have some real bad persoanl habits but his politics are right on...

Matt Miller is a loon, Q, with David Brooks not too far behind... What got the US to spending 17% of its GNP on health care in the first place was exactly what Miller now say is the solution... Kinda like leach therapy... Slashing corporate tax??? What's the difference if it's 35%, 3% of 10 million %... They won't pay any just like they don't pay any now... Matt Miller is a puppet without a real brain that thinks independent of what the Koch brothers stick in there every day... Not sure where David gets his looniness but I think he comes by it more honestly than Matt...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 05:30 PM

Not a true statement. Air travel does not in any way defy gravity...

You mean the THEORY of gravity, dontcha Beardie? Like the theory of evolution, the theory of global warming, etc?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 05:38 PM

Exxonmobil 2009
Income - 35 billion
Income taxes - 15 billion
Net Income - 20 billion
(from which payments made to the many shareholders)

Total revenues - 311 billion
Total expenses - 276 billion
Earnings/common share - $3.98

2008
Income - 83 billion
Income taxes - 36.5 billion
2007
Income - 71.4 billion
Income taxes - 30 billion

Does not include sales taxes, etc.

I could do Microsoft and show a much larger percentage of profit-

The U.S. would be Slobovia without these generators of jobs and taxes.
The tax system needs reform, but claiming corporations pay no taxes is idiotic nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 05:40 PM

Above Exxonmobil data from 2009 Annual Report.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 05:54 PM

Those are not corporate tax figures ... Those are other tax figures... They include everything including the payroll taxes they pay their employees, the taxes they pay the state and localities for property owned... They are not based on the profits the corporation made... This is more corporate smoke and mirrors...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 06:20 PM

1. Source, Please?

2. Please break it down to specifics - state taxes, federal taxes local taxes & etc. & include profit figures, not just gross sales.

3. What about the other several thousand major corporations?

The U.S. would be Slobovia without these generators of jobs...

Problem being that the jobs they create are IN Slobovia, not the U.S.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 06:23 PM

Statement by Bobert incorrect. Sales taxes, etc. in the statement of income and expenses.
Read the summary annual report for 2009, especially the financial summary p. 38.
Total sales and operating revenus in 2009 was 301.5 billion, with total costs and deductions 276 billion, which included sales taxes, product purchases*, manufacturing and sales expenses, and other taxes incurred (foreign, etc.).
This leaves approx. 35 billion income before income taxes.

*Much of supply purchased from governments and producing companies around the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 06:28 PM

Like Paul Harvey used to say, "And now for the rest of the story...


http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2010/04/06/173215/exxon-zero-taxes/

Read 'um an' weep, Q-ball...lol...

B:~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 06:43 PM

Jobs have gone elsewhere because costs are lower and efficiency greater overseas.

U. S. infrastructure has gone downhill, salaries too high, unions backward in thinking, education levels low, more progressive education and rise of competition in Asia and strengthening EU, lack of foresight and incentives on the part of government- you name it. The only entrepreneurship has been on the part of the communications industry, but developments outside the U.S. quickly caught up and forged ahead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 07:00 PM

If our political, ideological rocket scientists on here, would click on their names, and read posts, from TWO weeks ago, and on back....they would be finding they are arguing the other side of the same arguments that they are arguing now!

Now to the 'other' party...You like Mitt??..The Obama administration released, TODAY, that the 'model' for Obama Care, that was used to pattern Obama Care after...was modeled after Mitt's Massachusetts health care bill!

Big difference there, huh????

Joe Biden, was the architect of the Patriot Act, in the mid 1990's!!..BEFORE 911!!

When they FINALLY discover that Wall Street was a HUGE, excuse me, the BIGGEST, supporter of Obama's Presidency bid in '08..do you think your dim lights will grow brighter??

Then you squabble and bitch about what 'news' source I am 'deluding' myself with.....and throw 'party line talking points' at me, like I'm some sort of anti-human, right wing Bobert Basher and Donny Dowser,..only to find out, that I was telling you the TRUTH, all along..that the 'two parties' are really a masquerade, pandering to one side or the other, AT A TIME, all along!
You may even remember my analogy of the boxer in the ring, hitting you with a 'right' another 'right' a 'left' and a 'right' and a 'left' ..but behind it ALL, was the SAME boxer...out to knock you out! (or unconscious).
That analogy, used on here, was over THREE years ago, during the elections!!! (anybody home?).....

Now its Wall Street...and today announced that they are going into the area where the 'rich' guys pulling the financial/political strings live....guess who lives in that area?.....David Koch, George Soros, Murdoch,..and a host of others!....that Either/Both side THINKS are their 'heroes'......................

.............when all along...................................you heard it HERE, .................................first!

Weren't the earlier 'protest/folk' singers supposed to have some 'insight'?....and that made them 'hip'?....especially when they spoke out AGAINST the 'establishment'?

Guess what???................................except for a few on here....................................YOU are the establishment!

Happy Creative Moments........and Be Sane,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 07:20 PM

Hmmmmm???

I though this thread was about the Wall Street protesters???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 08:02 PM

Jobs have gone elsewhere because costs are lower and efficiency greater overseas

No.

Jobs have gone elsewhere because a decent profit and a fair return on investment are no longer sufficient for the greedy bastards who pine for the days of The Gilded Age and wish they were J.P. Morgan - now they must make an obscene profit, and damn the consequences.

And also because these 'job producing patriots' don't really give a fuck about the USA or US workers as long as they keep making gobs of money - by any means necessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 08:05 PM

And also because they can cheerfully exploit workers in foreign, non-union environments and treat them even more like shit wythan they treat U.S. workers.

And tell your story (that it's all the fault of the Unions in the U.S.) walking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 08:06 PM

Not to mention that India and China are building entire plants, turn key, and giving them to American corporations for free, land and all...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 08:40 PM

Get it through your thick skulls...the 'globalists' are NOT looking out for America, or American interests...just themselves! They don't want, or need to give a shit about you or me!..nor this country, other than using its military to attain their goals......and if using it, against us, will further THEIR goals, they will!
They only need a reason to make it LOOKED 'justified', and make it LOOK like 'it's for your own good'!
That is what is the goal of the Tea party, in conjunction with OWS, in conjunction with the Democraps, in conjunction with the Republicunts, your 'news' media, and EVERY thing they can exploit, to make divisions, hostile to each other....so they can 'quell', by force, and set up their agenda, that you will be compelled to comply with.....WITHOUT representation!
This is not rocket science, folks.
'Globalists'...you know, like 'World Dominators'! You will give up your freedoms WILLINGLY, some already have, to buy into their crap...and some of you are promoting just that.....on their behalf, because you believed them!...and still do!
It is YOU who they fear!...That is why the lies and secrecy! Now, either way you turn, you are caged in!

Have a wonderful practice session.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 08:51 PM

If ya' gonna talk the talk then ya gotta walk the walk... That means no more rant/lectures of a mix of Lyndon LaRouche/Ron Paul/ Wallie Wacko...

Join your local OWS and find out it ain't all about you...

Talk is cheap...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:55 PM

I think it's a shame that this much energy and enthusiasm still doesn't seem to be aimed at anything useful. A plan to organize and defeat congessmen (Repubs and Dems) who have filibustered the jopbs bill would be a meaningful step towards achieving the OWS avowed goals.
A successful grassroots movement should not support any political party---they should try to directly influence the members of any party that oppose their views.
To me, screaming at billionaires because they get government tax breaks is pointless; scream, instead, at the people who give them those breaks.Better yet, keep them from being elected. (note: observe Tea Party tactics)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:58 PM

"Not to mention that India and China* are building entire plants...."
Now why didn't the Americans think of that?
*You forgot to add South Korea and Taiwan.

Overall profit margins for the whole of industry are meaningless.
Takes time to winkle them out, but a few figures-
2005 levels:
Internet companies- 21%; 1st Q 2011- 23.8%
Lumber companies - --; 18% 1st Q 2011
Major Banks- 16%; 1st Q 10.5% (money center banks)
Newspapers- 11%; 7% 2011 1st Q*
Multimedia- 9%
Oil and gas- 9% (1998- 7.4%); 1st Q 2011- 6.2% integrated majors, oil&gas expl. companies 10%)
Clothing- 5%
Auto- 3%
Groceries- 1.5%
* This places major integrated Oil & Gas companies at no 114 in the order of profitability. Size cannot be equated with profit margin.
-----------------
Closed end equity funds 2011 1st Q- 81% Yes, this sort of thing needs oversight and regulation. Closed end foreign- 38%

Of course the loonies who cannot read a balance sheet will continue to rant against corporations, without effect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:06 PM

Overall profit margins for the whole of industry are meaningless.

Tell it to industry.

Oh, and how about some figures that aren't 6 years old?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:12 PM

Agreed, Q....

We should be building plants here... I'm all for that... Use tax money to compete... The right calls that socialism... I call it competing to keep Americans employed... That's why we need to pass a job bill..

Sorry, dick, but lotta these folks ain't where you want them to be and may never be where you want them to be... Some will get there but it's a process... We're kinda back to Square One and need a new look...

OWS is in its infant stage... Like to see you attend your closest OWS "General Assembly" and put your 2 cents worth in...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 11:06 PM

When someone starts a post with "Get it through your thick skulls..." I know that what follows is not going to be worth reading. Anyone with that attitude is nothing but a schoolyard bully and he's too concerned with his own ego to bother with facts and reason.

PHOOEY

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 11:55 PM

Horseshit!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:15 AM

Gentlemen, we see how easily agreements can go to shit, don't we.

Fuck!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:22 AM

Yeah, it begins with silly children who don't want to listen, because they're afraid they might have to THINK, and they don't want to do that, and respond with profound rebuttals, or constructive 'thoughts', say mature things like "PHOOEY"....run away to go suck their thumbs, Watch T.V., and are entertained while their nation turns to divided chaos.....even their own party!

Makes ya' wonder, whose payroll these guys on?


GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:29 AM

Much of the day I'm out at Westlake Park participating in the Occupy Seattle demonstrations, along with talking with local representatives.

What are YOU doing other than dipping epithets from your toilet, GfS?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:39 AM

Trying to keep you from drowning.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:57 AM

Crude and unimaginative, GfS. Not only do you think with your spleen, you can't even come up with a clever insult.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 02:09 AM

No need to, you've insulted yourself quite adequately....I'm not playing this next round of petty bullshit with you. Stick to the topic.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 02:32 AM

Boys, boys, boys.....

[be nice]


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 02:36 AM

I'm trying....!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 03:16 AM

Subsidising industry will NOT promote growth in the economy, it is simply a way of buying time.

Without growth, the system is fucked its as simple as that,

Please stop arguing about how to fix the system, your choices are extreme poverty, reduced standard of living, services cut, huge rates of unemployment etc, to re-set an economic system which has failed and will definately fail again in a few years.....or, accept economic an social hardship in an attempt to find something better,

The most important element is unity, the OWS movement is too divisive, too many ideas which alienate socially conservative people....the majority in your country and mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 03:38 AM

Well said, Ake.

Hey, how have you been doing?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:22 AM

Ake, you are correct in what you say. However, the boat you're missing on this one is that OWS is not politically driven (in terms of the movement). It's simply people saying, "I have had e-fuc#ing-nuff!"

Yes, it's starry-eyed idealism, and yes the OWS people are not united (except in being not united), but that may be its saving grace. The thing that broke the various movements back in the 1960s was that very cohesiveness people are asking for now.

I don't expect you to recall SNCC or NAACP or the then-rising Black Power movement, but what had been a fairly cohesive approach to 'getting the job done' was splintered by in-fighting and when ML King was murdered, the nail was driven into the coffin. Concomitantly, many people from the 'freedom' movement were also working to end the Vietnam War. They were the two foci of well-meaning people at that time.

The FBI was at wit's end trying to keep track of who's who in the world of what I will loosely call 'resistance'. The US government could denigrate the groups more easily because there were just two of them. I hope people learned from that. The OWS movement has a dozen concerns, each seemingly different yet each connected by one thing: MONEY and its abuse. Yes, the environment is in serious trouble. Yes, the economy is in the toilet. Yes, gay rights are not being addressed (hang on old friend, that's only one of the issues). Yes, poverty is rampant. Yes, the theft of billions has not been explained. Yes, there are separate laws for the rich and for the poor. Yes, wars around the globe are started for political reasons. Yes, there are multiple issues on the table. Yes, it's driving the Democrats, Republicans and Wall Street nutzo that no one will tell them "what they want."

My answer to the Republicans, Democrats and Wall Street is simple: You already know what we want. So don't bug us with small talk, something YOU want to engage us in so you can figure out how to attack us. We got nothing to say until such time as you get your head OUT of your collective ass and address what you know ARE the issues. You got the cops, you got the guns, but you ain't got us.

Basically, the response to Wall Street and their minions is get lost. We don't want to speak with you. You do NOT represent us, not now and no other time. Now, Wall Street speaking through Washington wants to establish rules for the fight. Really? We'll establish rules when the dust settles. Right now, it is not to OWS's benefit to establish rules. Rules will help only the monied class. We already know what their rules are.

That's my read, anyway. Does it make sense? I don't know. But I do know that the other way didn't. Fight by the other guy's rules and you lose. Something we all should remember: there are no rules in a street fight.

Keep well, Ake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 08:47 AM

That's my read, anyway. Does it make sense?

You Betcha!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 10:14 AM

"...There are those on here, who like to paint me as some sort of hostile creature..."

Geez, wonder why that might be!?!

Doesn't have anything to do with 8:40 PM or 12:22 PM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:29 PM

Sorry guys...just got in from work.

Brucie Baby.....you always make sense!,but we are just looking at this issue fron two slightly different perspectives, I despise the financial institutions probably as much if not more than you do, but we differ in how we would seek "reform" them.

I understand what you have written and it makes excellent sense, but in practice it could lead to the same people in power just with a police state in place to enforce that power.

I dont suppose there are many here more to the left than I am politically, but socially I am very much a traditionalist, and I believe that the vast majority of ordinary folk are of the same mind.
Their aim in life is to have a family, a job, and a little freedom, they are not interested in a superindustrial workhouse.

Inspiration and unity, not politics are what is required to form a new type of society....."You Betcha!!"

I wont be so hard on GFS Bruce....If Don is going to make snide remarks about GfS "dipping in the toilet bowl", he must expect some of the shit to stick when GfS retaliates......I thought it was an excellent witty response...(the biter bit, as it were).

Thanks for your good wishes, and I will be writing to you to let you know how things are going.

Greetings Sanity!....Leave these old "libs" alone, you put their blood pressure off the clock. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:35 PM

Bruce...right on!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:44 PM

Socialized/Privatized


Come, all you union members
And workers in your shop;
And all the laid-off folks who dread
The day the checks will stop;
Employers paying three folks,
Who used to employ ten;
We are the angry Ninety-nine,
Marching once again.

Refrain:

From Wall Street home to Main Street, shout loud the clear refrain:
"They've socialized the losses, and privatized the gains!" (2X)

The One-Percenters at the top,
With greed their only aim,
Have done their best to hide the way
They've played their selfish game.
So secretly they've tweaked the rules,
To keep us in the dark;
But now we're waking from our sleep,
And gathering in the park.


Refrain

When profits rise so high, you see,
And wages stay so low,
It's obvious the powers that be
Just don't want us to know.
As Joseph Stiglitz put it,
In words so clear and plain,
They socialize the losses,
But privatize the gain.


Last Refrain:

From Wall Street home to Main Street, shout loud the clear refrain:
"The people take the losses, the bosses take the gains!" (2X)



©2011 Annie Storr & Bob Clayton


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 01:19 PM

I think the reason that GfS and Ake keep attacking me is because I am not a defeatist. I'm not content to sit in the corner and whine.

I'm out and DOING!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 01:57 PM

That is an excellent song, Bob. Applause for the two of you and best wishes. Real good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 02:34 PM

Union LEADERSHIP is as guilty as the Wall Street CEOs...


"A labor leader in Chicago is expected to receive pension payments of nearly $500,000 a year, while another could get about $438,000 a year, according to reports Wednesday.
The Chicago Tribune and WGN-TV, which obtained information about union pension benefits during a joint investigation, said at least eight union officials in Chicago were eligible for what were described as inflated city pensions on top of union pensions for the same period of employment."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44872639/ns/us_news-life/


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 02:40 PM

No, Don, that is definitely not why you and they don't get along, and you flatter yourself in imagining it is. The only way you guys could get along, IMO, would be if you met each other in real life, rather than through a remote device such as a computer, and you got to know each other as real people...and related on a great variety of levels rather than just fighting about politics. You would probably get along much better in that case. I can't guarantee it...but the odds would be greatly improved.

Remember: "politics is the Great Divider" (I said that) Its very premise is to divide and conquer. It lives on conflict (often even while preaching the gospel of "unity").


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 03:04 PM

"Union LEADERSHIP is as guilty as the Wall Street CEOs..."



If the facts are as stated in the article, BB, you are correct in being aghast. That said, what point are you making?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 03:26 PM

"
Come, all you union members
And workers in your shop;
"

Shouldn't the Union members hold heir OWN leadership to ( at least) the standards they are told to hold the Corporations'?

By failing to do so, aren't they putting forth a double standard, that "Those who I support should not have to play by the same rules that those I disagree with do."?

The same reason I posted Obama getting more Corporate money than Bush or McCain. There is a tendency here to complain about the flaws of the other side while ignoring greater examples in those that are supported.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 03:29 PM

last was mine...



"
Come, all you union members
And workers in your shop;
"

Shouldn't the Union members hold heir OWN leadership to ( at least) the standards they are told to hold the Corporations'?

By failing to do so, aren't they putting forth a double standard, that "Those who I support should not have to play by the same rules that those I disagree with do."?

The same reason I posted Obama getting more Corporate money than Bush or McCain. There is a tendency here to complain about the flaws of the other side while ignoring greater examples in those that are supported.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 04:37 PM

Well BeeBee, several things.

1.If one actually reads the article cited, it was the Illinois Legislature that created this farce, not the Unions, so perhaps your outrage should be directed at them.

2. Here we have 2 or 3 individuals possibly getting between $300K & $500K. The corporate princes you love and defend regularly get MANY TIMES that per anum at separation PLUS multi-million dollar "bonuses" each year while employed.

As just one example of hundreds, General Motors' head Rick Wagoner got a $20 million retirement package as a reward for driving the company into bankruptcy.

Its a difference in kind, as well as in degree.

Try again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:55 PM

Well, this thread being about OWS, you won't hear too much from either 'side' in the turmoil. OWS doesn't really care which party or persuasion the crooks are purporting to be with or people are assuming they're from. That should be fairly clear by now, imo. It's news, but so what? Been going on for decades. And soon it will have to come to a full stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 06:42 PM

I'm afraid I have to disagree, Little Hawk.

When two people are face-to-face, just by that very proximity, they are generally forced to act in a civilized manner. NOT to do so could result in their having to have a lot of dental work done, that is, if they behave in the same manner that some people do here on Mudcat. Here, hiding safely behind the anonymity of a "GUEST" moniker, they can freely say anything they want without fear of consequences. Therefore, especially in the case of "GUESTS," what they feel free to say behind this screen of anonymity may be more revealing of who they really are than if you were sitting across the table from them.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 06:51 PM

By the way--

Politics:    def.
A battle of selfish interests masquerading as a conflict of lofty principles.
Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 06:55 PM

If yer gonna quote Ambrose Bierce, do it right:

POLITICS, n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles; The conduct of public affairs for private advantage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:01 PM

I didn't know that was Ambrose Bierce. I hear it on the radio yesterday and jotted it just down as I heard it.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:56 PM

Been gone all day but:

Ake,

No, you don't seem to understand that if the US doesn't subsidize industries (not CEO's salaries) then China or India, both who are perfectly willing to do so, will take them... In the late 70's the Japanese subsidized their steel industry and guess what??? The US lost it's entire steel industry... I'm not willing to let other countries, either from currency manipulation or subsidies, steal any more of our jobs...

brucie,

You got it right... The corporate shills and apologists want to box *US* into their game... Screw them... They are going to have to come to *US*... Don't expect "white papers" from OWS... We aren't interested in the details... That's up to Congressional staffers... We just want to change the culture and the conversation... We do that and the details will take care of themselves...

bb,

There is a strong correlation between union busting and stagnated wages be the working class... Using anecdotal stories is what "management" always fall back on when they have no other reason to explain why they hate unions... Management is out to steal people's labor... Theft!!!

Don,

Keep on truckin'...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 08:13 PM

Fantastic song, where can I get the tune?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 08:19 PM

Well, that there radio feller shoulda given the proper attribution, Don.
Here's another of Bierce's:

POLITICIAN, n. An eel in the fundamental mud upon which the superstructure of organized society is reared. When he wriggles he mistakes the agitation of his tail for the trembling of the edifice. As compared with the statesman, he suffers the disadvantage of being alive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 08:29 PM

I posted this somewhere just recently, but I think it merits repeating (came up with this one on my own):

politics:   etymology

Compound word, composed of

Ex, meaning "has-been," and Ticks, meaning "blood-sucking vermin."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 08:51 PM

You're not getting my drift, Don. But I bet if we were sitting at a table somewhere, you would...not because we were forced to act in a civilized manner, but because our natural inclination in the presence of another REAL human being instead of some words on a computer screen would make us more aware of our own behaviour. The same goes for if you and GfS were sitting at a table together. Your natural inclinations would probably result in some far more tolerant conversations than is the case here. Here it's safe for you to just stay angry over your personal fantasy of what GfS is like, treasure your dislike, build it, chew on it, and keep harping on it. You enjoy your anger. It makes you feel good and righteous, and you chew on it and keep reliving it, and telling us all how awful GfS is and how much your anger is justified. It becomes a self-amplifying habit, like feedback.

Sitting at a table, though, you would almost immediately find out that GfS is not who you think he is at all...not the image in your mind. And I think you'd then both act in a civilized manner...because, for one thing, your curiosity about the other person would impel you too.

It's not just "safe" for GfS or someone else you don't like to hide behind their computer screen here, Don. It's equally safe for you too. And for me. And that's why we all get a bit carried away from time to time and say things we probably wouldn't when face to face.

Everything you say to me about GfS amounts to an effort on your part to just persuade me that GfS is "a bad person" who deserves your contempt. Ain't gonna work, Don. I've spoken to GfS in real life, I know that person beyond some words on a screen, and I therefore don't buy that version of who GfS is. GfS isn't a bad person, neither are you, and neither am I.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM

I DO get your drift, Little Hawk. But I'm certain that GfS would NOT have the guts to say the same kind of childishly insulting things to me face-to-face that he does behind the anonymity of his computer screen. Not because I would beat the crap out of him if he did (I am far too civilized for that), but because I'm looking at HIM, not his words on a computer screen.

Behind the screen, he can feel "detached" from his childish insults. In person, he can't. He has to "own" them.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:18 PM

Ditto, Don...

GfinS talks out of both sides of her mouth... She takes on Libertarian/Lyndon LaRouche policy positions without any thought and then when she is called on them to explain, attacks the folks who ask her to explain???

And yeah, Don is correct... She wouldn't have the balls to say stuff to Don or me face-to-face that she feels perfectly okay to hit the "submit" button and let some rather insensitive and childish get posted...

A little less cute hostility and a little more cognizant thinking would be just fine but back her into a corner on her policy positions and its either juvenile responses or another blue clicky to a song???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:28 PM

I, as usual, mean no offence/offense to anyone: Is this thread about the OWS or not? IF so, let us continue on. If not. WTF is GfS?

Man, I need something to smoke, know what I mean, Vern?

Just noticed I missed the top piece of the colon there. Damned good thing I'm not a surgeon.

Love and peece/peice/pease/ relaxation to all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:29 PM

Dam, Hoover,

That was me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:35 PM

Exactly, brucie...

Lets have a f'n serious discussion about real policies that effect the entire planet...

That's what OWS is all about...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:38 PM

Bingo, Bobert. I just heard on another thread the you ain't Black. When did THAT happen?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:44 PM

I ain't black??? Sheet fire... Lemme go look in the mirror... I'll get back to ya'll...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:46 PM

Uh.....are you okay, Brucie?

By the way, Bobert, I missed it on the other thread, but I want to heartily congratulate you on your recent triumph! Good going!

Now, back to our regular broadcast.....

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:57 PM

Thanks, Don...

So now back to out regularly scheduled discussion about OWS...

Here in Charlotte it's Saturday but we have a bout 35 camped out in front on the court house...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,99
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 10:16 PM

I have to know before I catch a few zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzs, are th


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 11:59 PM

Bobert!
Is it true that you could say "I was born a poor black child..."?



Sorry. One of my all time fave movies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 06:21 AM

Sorry to bring this discussion back to Occupy Wall Street, but here is a link to a YouTube video of me performing at OWS in New York this past Friday, October 7, 2011. I am playing my wonderful little Felix the Cat Martin guitar.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 09:17 AM

I liked that Steve Martin line myself, TIA...

I don't know what thread it is on but in spite of history as a skinny white guy living purdy much in the black community for many years I is still a skinny white guy...

Great union song, Steve... Keep 'um comin'...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 02:14 PM

Short of creating a real revolution in this country--which is extremely unlikely--- a protest can further its goals most effectively by influencing votes. I'm not suggesting that the OWS should affiliate with either party; rather they should try to exert control on who gets elected in both parties. An OWI coalition in congress could be an effective voice; even if it isn't as mellifluous as someone standing on a street corner singing protest songs with a banjo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 02:20 PM

Suffet... excellent!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 06:30 PM

300. And I gather the local equivalent of bulldozers go in at 7 am local time


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 07:20 PM

The park where the protestors are camped out is private property. Unsanitary, unsightly and noisy conditions are a nuisance and hazard for residents and workers in the vicinity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 08:19 PM

the local equivalent of bulldozers go in at 7 am local time

Of course they do. That's how "the Man" has always dealt with peaceful protest- the Bonus Army and Coxey's Army come to mind out of dozens of examples.

Its a great tredition in The Land Of The Free.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 08:24 PM

Rule by a corrupt Oligarchy is a hazard to virtually everyone.

Right of peaceable assembly to protest corruption is a given in any free society...but apparently only until it starts to worry those in charge of the corruption. ;-) Nothing new about that! It's one of the oldest stories in the world. I doubt that there is any place in the vicinity of Wall Street where these demonstrations could go on for long without the big hired fist of society's financial elite coming down to stop it on the basis of some supposed "hazard", that hazard being to themselves.

Excuses will always be found by those in power as to why those not in power can't be allowed to stage a peaceful demonstration...and those in power will use force to stop it...pretending that they are protecting society by so doing. Some people will believe them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 08:27 PM

FYI, Q...

Zuccotti Plaza is indeed privately owned, but its owners agreed to make it into a public space accessible 24 hours a day in return for a zoning variance.

I have been to the site seven times, and it is not at all unsanitary. If anything, it is very well maintained. As far as noise goes, yes, there is a lot during the day. But have you ever been to that part of Lower Manhattan? During the day it is just as noisy without the Occupy Wall Street encampment. Unsightly, of course, is is the eye of the beholder. So is nuisance. There are no residents in the vicinity, since it purely a commercial area. As far as being a hazard for workers, I never saw how that is possible. No one has to enter Zuccotti Plaza, since the sidewalks go around it. But even if someone does enter the plaza, what hazard is there?

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 08:35 PM

Greetings:

If you enjoy my song Union Warriors, here is a link to a studio recording which you are welcome to download for free until the end of this month. You are also welcome to listen to it on-line for free without any time limit.

Go for it!

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 08:41 PM

Ths OWS people themselves are keeping the park clean. That said, similar things are happening across the country (US) and very soon, Canada. The protesters are not screaming radicals. They are ordinary people who will continue to protest until such time as fundamental changes are made to banking laws and the methods by which corporate financial transactions occur. No more free rides for corporations. No more free rides for banks.

About 60 MILLION people in the US are living below the poverty line. What part of that is hard for people to understand?

And speaking of people, when protests of this sort happened against the Vietnam War, the presidents at least mentioned them. Where is the present president and what is he saying? I tried Google news but found nothing. Can anyone point me to a credible source?

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 09:03 PM

From Obama's press conference last week. He acknowledges the protest and that people are dissatisfied, but it's an opportunity to hit a talking point or several. I suppose it's not so bad, since the talking points are about how to fix things, but I wish there had been more about the people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 09:14 PM

Friday, Zuccotti Park will be closed by the owners, one-third at a time, for cleaning. The company emphasizes the need for park rules to be followed- no tents or sleeping bags, no sidewalk obstructions, no storing of private property, no laying on benches.

The upshot will be interesting. There have been reports of trouble makers moving to the site.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 09:22 PM

I expect there will be trouble makers in Montreal, Q. Just the way it is. When people feel disenfranchised, as so many do, stuff happens. The problem has been mention before:

"An imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics."

Plutarch (46-120 AD)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 11:23 PM

Although many Easterners are still under the impression that Seattle is little more than a clump of log cabins and igloos (with the "Space Needle," left over from the Seattle World's Fair in 1962, standing in the middle of it – (view from Queen Anne Hill; looks like a storm coming in from the East), this city may be a bit more civilized than New York.

The demonstrators/protesters participating in "Occupy Seattle" in sympathy with and in support of the "Occupy Wall Street" protesters are occupying Westlake Park in downtown Seattle. They were not allowed to camp there overnight because of a pre-existing city ordinance, but Mayor Mike McGinn suggested that they camp on the large lawn beside the County-City Building (City Hall), a few blocks south of Westlake Park, and allows them to use the sanitary facilities in the building.

No bulldozers, no riot police. Mayor McGinn understands what it's all about and is in sympathy with the demonstrations.

(I'm glad I voted for him, and I'll vote for him again.)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 04:46 AM

I received this via e-mail sent from NYC at 3:12 am today from a friend who is with the OWS 'group'. It's worth reading.


"Spent the last several hours cleaning up the Plaza in the rain. There wasn't a cigarette butt left on the ground by the time we finished. We even scrubbed the walls. People's belongings were left under tarps or in waterproof tubs. It's a disorganized bivouac, but don't believe anyone who tells you it wasn't sanitary.

I just hope nobody gets clobbered tomorrow morning when the police move in. Everybody in the Plaza is prepared for arrest. The only question is how it all goes down. This will not be the end of the movement, but it is probably the end of the beginning.

If you are awake at this late hour, and if you have not already sent an email to the Mayor's office in support of Occupy Wall Street, please consider doing so."


Posted here without comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 09:13 AM

Seems the clean-up has been postponed. Therefore no police, no possible confrontation. Good news for OWS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 09:31 AM

No confrontation? Gee, I bet Bloomberg is disappointed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 11:57 AM

Over 1,100 cities and towns now have Wall St. occupiers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 12:15 PM

Wall Street protesters arrested in Denver
By STEVEN K. PAULSON and THOMAS PEIPERT - Associated Press | AP – 40 mins ago 10/14/11

DENVER (AP) — Dozens of police in riot gear have herded Wall Street protesters away from the Colorado state Capitol grounds, arresting about two dozen and dismantling their encampment.

Most retreated without resisting. Some chanted "Peaceful!" or "Shameful!" as police moved in early Friday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 05:27 PM

NYPD cop runs over a protester


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: ollaimh
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 10:15 PM

the financial instruments manufactured by wall street after 1990 whic didn't exist before, and made up three quarters of the available financial instruments by the crash,were an uber ponzie scheme. no regulations and the fact the investment backs used other peoples money to do this led to most of these vestements being worthless. this financialization of the economy was great in the boom, but the bust is tough.

the total lack of the banks own money and the almost fictional nature of these new financial instruments was a fornula for disaster and shows the need for major regulation.

i hope this wall street protest is the brginning of a people's take back of the right to control the economy from these flim flam artists.

i remain amazed anyone bought these new financial instruments but they did.

if america makes major investments in infrastructure and stops subsidizing the oil industry and stops expensive wars and many overseas bases. they could concentrate on sustainable energy and under cut the reason jobs over seas are so attractive to corporations. cheap oil shipping to sell in the usa.without the subsidized oil a lot of these exported jobs would be untenable. with subsidized sustyainable energy a lot of jobs are made at home.

if this isn't well under way before the catastrphhes of the climate change happen we are in for real trouble. so go wall street protestors. it's been too long the totalitarian corporations have been able to errode the new deal and the progress under the johnson adminstration. without a response america will be a third world country in a few decades and the corporations will be happily centered elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 11:54 PM

"and the corporations will be happily centered elsewhere."

Does anyone believe that billions of people with computers cannot shut down government? Does anyone think that within three weeks/months that won't happen? The phone, i'net and mail will close. THINK about that. Then say goodnight Gracie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 03:36 AM

Why dont they all just go home and read a good book?

A little Marx might help them to understand how Capitalism works.

As I said on another thread,everything about Capitalism is perfectly acceptable, so long as it's the inhabitants of OTHER nations who are being killed or exploited.

Chickens....home....roost???


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 04:40 AM

I think the "Occupy Wall Street" folks know what they're doing, Ake.

And it's not just Wall Street. These protests are happening all over the country. The PEOPLE are fed up!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 06:08 AM

I understand that an equivalent is on its way to the UK.

Good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 09:38 AM

Occupy Charlotte @ 3:00 today!!!

I'll be there...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 10:27 AM

"The people are fed up!"

Well where I come from, the people dont seem to have a clue what is happening to them....and they are quite pissed because their toys are being taken away.

You want a Capitalist system, you have to accept that you are going to get fucked now and again.......now just line up like good boys and prepare yourself for a long, slow, screw.

About two decades worth I should think.
I suppose most of us will expire before then, but dont worry, the system aint fussy.....It don't care what it screws! :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 11:47 AM

Saw a thing in the Washington Post. Seems the guy who would be president--Obama--has decided the OWS movement is just what HIS reelection campaign needs. Yeah, right! Like he's not part of the problem.

Are there any independents running in the US who are worth getting behind?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: bobad
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 12:45 PM

Sign spotted at Occupy Wall Street:

"Reaganomics played out;
Wealth trickles up
Burden trickles down"


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 02:40 PM

Spoken like a true, old timey communist, Ake. There are still a few around here, too, sitting in the back booth of the Blue Moon Tavern, where they've been since the mid-1950s. Whining and moaning about how rotten the system is, but still just sitting and drinking, sitting and drinking, sitting and drinking…….

"Well where I come from, the people dont seem to have a clue what is happening to them....and they are quite pissed because their toys are being taken away."

I presume you're talking about the folks involved in the "Occupy" demonstrations around the country—and on the radio this morning, I heard that it's catching on in cities all over the world. Wrong-o, Ake! They DO know what has happened to them and is still happening and they are, as the line from the movie goes, "mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!!"

They KNOW what it's all about.

That's why they are there!

This is a possitive sign. A VERY positive sign!

Don Firth

P. S.   I am for regulated capitalism, preferential (instant run-off) voting, and hard-and-fast laws absolutely forbidding lobbying (polite name for bribery) and rigid regulations on campaign financing. Lots of other stuff, too, but that will do for now. I stayed awake during my high school civics classes, I know a bit of history, and I don't get my political views from radio talk shows.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 06:58 PM

Well, the biggest difference between this weeks demonstration and last week's was that every where we marched we were treated as heroes... I mean, people waving and honking... Might have only been 300-400 of *US* but seems there were hundreds, perhaps thousands of folks showing support... I mean, workers of the Omni Hotel coming out to applaud us... Bus drivers honking... Taxi drivers honking...

We are definitely showing the Tea Party what a thru grassroots movement looks like...

On a music side, I took two paddle drums and there was a kid who was there last week with a little toy drum and I gave him one and the two of us added quite a bit to the rally... I'm going to make a couple plastic 5 gallon paint bucket drums for next week and me and the kid will really make some noise...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 07:28 PM

Thanks for the "on-the-scene" reports, Bobert!

Being wheelchair-bound, it isn't easy for me to get on a bus and head down to Westlake Park here in Seattle, but from reports I get from people who were there, these folks really do know where they're coming from and what they are there for. And the reactions of those who work in the area or who are passing through are almost always positive and encouraging (except for the occasional sorehead, of course).

Unlike New York City, even Seattle's mayor is sympathetic with the "Occupiers!"

It's real easy for people sitting in front of their computers and who have never been near the scene to sneer and pontificate. They are the ones who don't know what it's all about. But that sure doesn't stop them from venturing their opinions. For what they're worth.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 08:00 PM

I have not been staying for the "General Assembly" meetings, Don because they go into the night but I have been making my feelings known at OccupyCharlotte.com... The "General Aseembly" stuff is more for the younginz... They are the ones who stand to suffer much worse than we have... They don't need a bunch of their grandparents and parents telling them how to do stuff... They have their shit together and I love it... I'll do what I can do with noise and whatever they want me to do...

BTW, the sign I made for today's demonstration simply read "THINK 1776"... Lotta folks commented on it and my reply was "Meet the new Brit, same as the old Brit"... or "No taxation without representation"...

I'm loving this... Never in my wildest imagination would we see a global uprising against the rich and the cheaters...

This is just where we were headed when the right took out our leaders in the 60s...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 08:28 PM

After spemding a lot of years gnashing my teeth, I feel good about this.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 08:34 PM

Our turn, Don!!!

Cowabunga!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 12:33 AM

Four Charts That Explain why the Protesters Are Angry..


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: ollaimh
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 12:49 AM

and furthermore, without getting into the theory of money, not monatary theory, i am no monatarists. money is over ninety per cent held in financial forms other than specie. that is other than coins bills gold silver.

banks and other financial institutions keep most money in records with no actual folding money form. the money supply therefore is greatly affected by loans debentures bonds and other financial instruments. the more issued the more inflation of the money supplu and a rise in prices. so what i am getting at is the five fold increase in bank created securities done on wall street in the post 1999 "creative" financila boom following deregulation resulted in a significant increase in the money supply. however the inflationary effect were slow in the non financial economy. the prices of securities rose percipitously due to the increase in the money supply then as the price raises flowed into the main economy the "bubble" stableized then burst.

the investmnent bankers who created all these new bundled securities, options, derivitives and debentures, and even credit default swaps sold off their own holding before the boom hit the regular economy. in other words they created the boom , sold near the high but enough before the bust to avoid being asked too many questions, then sold off these inflated securities to the unsuspecting.

essentially,this was the largest ponzie scheme in history. and the smart guys were long gone by the time people were getting nervous. and long before the bust. most of the really big profiteers were the very same people who created these new financial instruments in the first place.deregulation handed controll over the money supply to the profiteers who knew how to manipulate the m oney supply. moreover these new securities were created with no deposit hedge that used to be put into the investments by backs before deregulation. in other words the banks stopped putting any of their own money into these securities they were selling. an example is credit default swaps, which used to be a kind of insurance when offered by investment banks who financed them themselves, but the ones out there now have to issuer deposit. they depend entirely on market psychology for their value and are pure specualtion. rather than the insurance they used to be. they were used to spread ones risk over several sectors of the securities market by swapiing with other investement banks . now they are purely speculative instruments.

the biggest ponzie scheme in history , with the tax payer stuck with the bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 04:01 AM

Don...that is the problem, "regulated Capitalism" no longer provides the growth required to keep the economy solvent.

That is why we have witnessed the series of "booms" in the last couple of decades, these booms were not only the work of corrupt bankers and financiers, but actively encouraged by capitalist governments, as a survival mechanism.

What i am saying is that without systemic change, the whole protest movement is counter productive.
It reinforces the idea, that this system can be repaired by stopping the financial sector doing what they are supposed to do under Capitalism.

If economic growth falls, your standard of living and public servces fall with it, how many of your young protesters realise that?......now is the time to go for real change....and I mean the way people think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 06:14 AM

Read what I said again, Ake.

Regulated Capitalism.

That means NOT putting members of the particular business or industry on the agency that is supposed to be regulating it. Putting bankers and Wall Street brokers on the Securities and Exchange Commission and putting executives from pharmaceutical companies on the Food and Drug Administration, for example. THAT was Ronald Reagan's contribution to the dismantling of the regulatory agencies that FDR put in place in the 1930s that were a major factor in ending the Great Depression.

I know that as an avowed communist, anything having to do with capitalism is an anathema to you, but the fact is that capitalism works well IF it is properly regulated. I see no historical evidence that communism ever worked well, except on a very small scale.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 07:39 AM

The following is the introduction to a short story I wrote about five years ago. I post it to point out that this stuff ain't news to everyone--with no offense meant to anyone.

"We live on a planet that cries for our help, yet we continue to ignore those cries. We have despoiled our home and proven ourselves to be seriously remiss as respectable and responsible stewards. There is now a concerted effort by various governments, multi-nationals and special-interest groups to control the production and distribution of all resources. Eventually that will lead to a similar fate for people. We should be working hard to prevent this from happening, for ultimately Earth belongs not to a self-appointed elite, but rather to all God's creatures, great and small."

############################################

We have known since the earliest days of electronic banking that our system had troubles. Hell, we've known since 1929 that our system has troubles. The initial Wall Street Crash in '29 told us all we need to know. Absolutely nothing changed on the Wednesday after Black Tuesday--but people thought it had changed, and so it did.

As an eight-year old kid I knew 'something' was screwed up because jujubes went from four for a penny to three for a penny. I defy anyone to tell me that the value of the lowly jujube changed so drastically from one day to the next. I saw the same thing happen in a town I lived in where house prices doubled in a few months. I've seen the same thing between 1959 and the present with bread prices. When I was a young teenager, my grandmother sent me blocks out of my way (she thought the exercise was good for me) to buy what was then called 'day-old-bread'. Fresh, it was $.17 a loaf. Day-old was two loaves for that price. Today, the same loaf of bread sells for about $3.00 when it's on 'sale'. And jujubes go for about $.04 each.

A few years back the subject of conspiracy theories came up again on Mudcat. At the time a few of us were ridiculed because we suggested one might find the roots of the problem in what has come to be called 'the new world order'. Despite pointing out that the term has been in use since the late 1800s, we were told to put on our tinfoil hats because it was just blather, we should wait for the little green men, etc. Anyone want to borrow my hat?

In fact, Sir Isaac Newton who was the person who moved much of the world to what was called the gold standard in the early 1700s. It was in 1819 that Britain formally adopted it and it was in 1971 that the standard was finally formally dropped by the USA simply because there wasn't enough gold in "Fort Knox" to support the currency that was floating around.

A google of

D.L. Cuddy: Chronological History of the New World Order

contains a research of the term New World Order, and it is worth reading, imo. It is an unfortunate document in that some people are quoted just enough out of context or with insufficient information to easily check their credibility--but the basic information is there. For example,

'1954 -- Senator William Jenner said:

"Today the path to total dictatorship in the United States can be laid by strictly legal means, unseen and unheard by the Congress, the President, or the people... outwardly we have a Constitutional government. We have operating within our government and political system, another body representing another form of government, a bureaucratic elite which believes our Constitution is outmoded and is sure that it is the winning side.... All the strange developments in the foreign policy agreements may be traced to this group who are going to make us over to suit their pleasure.... This political action group has its own local political support organizations, its own pressure groups, its own vested interests, its foothold within our government, and its own propaganda apparatus."'

What isn't mentioned is that he was a follower of Senator Joe McCarthy and he was talking about communism. However, a rose by another name . . .

The following kinda sums it up.

'In 1913, prior to the passage of the Federal Reserve Act President Wilson's The New Freedom was published, in which he revealed:

"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the U. S., in the field of commerce and manufacturing, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."'

I hesitate to call the above a conspiracy theorist. That's the usual 'ridicule' thrown at people who are coming to realize that maybe there actually IS such a thing and that while we think in terms of shorter time spans (mortgage of twenty years, TV shows of 24 minutes called a half hour, etc) there is nothing odd historically of thinking in terms of a few hundred years. The Chinese have been doing it for centuries (as it were).

I have thrice on Mudcat (I think) drawn attention to the article by Cuddy mostly because it documents the use of terms closely related to NWO. In fact, four or five American presidents have publicly acknowledged the term although each within different contexts. That said, they have used the term in such a way that maybe it's time folks had a good look at it.

Forget if you wish the use of names like Illuminati, Bilderbergers, Trilateral Commission, etc. We don't need them to demonstrate that "Something is happening here and ya don't know what it is, do you, Mr Jones."

It's lots simpler for this old boy: fuckin' jujubes cost sixteen times what they did when I was a kid dammit, and that's a rip-off of gigantic proportions, because as happened with the lowly jujube so too happens with bread, houses and 401's.

Forty-six percent of the people elected to congress are millionaires. To quote from a song by the Dixie Chicks,

'There's Your Trouble, There's Your Trouble
You Keep Seeing Double With The Wrong One
You Can't See I Love You, You Can't See She Doesn't
But You Just Keep Holding On
There's Your Trouble'


Felt good to get that off my chest. Have a nice day, all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 09:36 AM

Bruce, may I put that on the 'Occupy Wall St' Facebook page? Mine also, and several other 'Occupy' pages? (Obviously, giving your name as Author)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: bobad
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 11:08 AM

Some more notable signs from the Occupy Protests:

`The American dream is a pyramid scheme.`

`Èat the rich, they taste like chicken.`


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 08:52 PM

This is interesting. The woman at THIS BLOG writes about the demonstrations in Spain this past summer. The protestors called themselves the Indignados. Young liberals for the most part. The people leading the movement convinced them that they could show "the establishment" disdain by not voting in the upcoming elections, and the young people complied. The right-wing party made huge gains. The young liberals were tricked by what turned out to be right-wing leadership.

And now some of the people who ran that operation are in New York City helping with the OWS protests.

One of the things the organizers in Spain did was to march people around in useless demonstrations, venting steam and energy with pointless activity. The same thing's being done in the OWS protests. And then there's all the talk about "consensus." It'll never be reached, and that's the point of forcing the consensus model on movements like this--to make sure the group never comes together as a whole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 01:04 AM

Hi, Songwronger.

You're right. I also heard from another trusted friend that in Texas the Democrats are getting THEIR faces in it and helping the OWS folks along. Seems it's lots like incest: keep it in the family.

Thing is, they both need the 60 percent living below the poverty line--half of whom are voters, and until such time as they both put up or shut up, they need us more than we need them. That's the trump card, and if no one gives it away, they got NO choice BUT to deal. Thing is, promises don't cut it this time. SUTMOSTFU. (That's for Wall Street and the politicians, not you.)

An important thing to remember about hardball: if yer forced into the game, pitch!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 01:26 AM

OOPS. I meant to write 60 million, not 60%. Old age, exuberance and beer. Please pardon me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 11:32 AM

Marx said that Capitalism would inevitably fail and that the proletariat would eventually communicate, coordinate, organize and refuse to put up gross inequality and exploitation any more.

Here we have a situation where the proletariat are doing just that.

The target is capital and its relationship with the ruling classes.


The target is Neo-liberal politics


and Ake says they should go and read a book.


Apart from being laughably ignorant, this is about as reactionary as you can be without trying to shut them up.


This is the same Ake who moans about freedom of speech and purports t be a critic of neo-liberalism.


I'd gladly give yhim a job talking into a balloon to stop it sinking!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 11:39 AM

I `ad one of them protesters in my cab last night. `e`ad `is guitar and Woody Guthrie song book and `e was going up to join a group in the City called "Folk Against Freemarkets"
I said, " `oo you got it in for, then?"
`e said, "All of `em, Jim. Barclays, M&$, BP, Tesco, Vodaphone, Nat.West. That lot for starters."
I said, You gotta credit card?"
`e said, "Yeah, but......"
I said, "That`s a nice pair of jeans you got on."
`e said, "Oh, I know that but......."
I said, "You drive a car?"
`e said, "Oh yeah but they all do that."
I said, "You gotta reward card and a mobile phone?."
`e said, "Oh, I know that but....."
I said, "Seems to me you need them more than they need you!!"

Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 01:33 PM

There is nothing in these protests that criticizes enterprise or market economics.

There is no such thing as a completely free market, or you would see legal drugs and child porn etc.

So we accept that a market can't be totally free.

But thats just a distraction anyway.

Labour is not an infinite resource and it would seem that in this market, the monetary value of labour has been set too low, with the result that the labour force is becomng coordinated.

This is about renegotiating the terms between those who own the means of production and the people upon whom they rely for the success of their industries.

The recent crisis and the way the governments of the world and the IMF have gone about dealing with it has highlighted the obscene inequalities that exist in the world and the corruption and nepotism that exist between capitalists and government.


It has also highlighted the effectiveness of social media as a political tool.


I believe Marxs predictions are beginning to come true. Not in any cliched sense, nor in the way that the worlds "communist" dictators have tried to contrive, but in the inevitable way that simply must occur when so few so greedily insist on possessing so much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 01:51 PM

As for OWS being "useless"???

What a crock of weasel shit...

Reality is that there 2 options for oppressed people: accept it or fight it... No middle ground... No third option...

OWS is fighting it... It's that simple...

And guess what??? As we demonstrate we are seeing hotel workers, restaurant workers, laborers, and people everywhere waving and cheering in support... OWS is laying out some very basic demands for justice and equality...

My generation got the ball down the field fairly well with the civil rights movement (also not "useless") and this generation has picked up the ball and going to get it a little further down the field... It is a struggle but it's time for the fight... The working class has not seen any increase in their wages (after inflation) for over 30 years and there has been a massive redistribution of wealth to the upper 5% (most to the upper 1%)... So it's time for some adjustments...

Time to change the conversation... Time to get our message out... It's time... It's time...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 06:07 PM

People who do complain about OWS--like the taxi guy who's neither all that funny nor all that informed--can complain all they want. It ain't about them, it's about the 99%. We've been fucked over for years, and it's now time to return the favour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 07:04 PM

Back when I was in college, I attended a lot of football rallies. Much enthusiasm, but I never recall one affecting the game's outcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 07:22 PM

Lousy analogy, dick...

My generation took to the streets to get the Civil Rights Act as law...

The Civil Rights Act ain't a stupid football game...

Your answer is disrespectful to everyone who fought for civil rights...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 08:24 PM

One solid "through-line" that some politicians get, and that they all need to get if they want to stay in politics is that, even though they—and Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and that collection of weasels—denigrate the OWS protesters and the hundreds of mirror groups all over the country, such as "Occupy Seattle," as misguided or hooligans or worse, is that they are all—

Voters.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 08:47 PM

Bobert- It may be a lousy analogy, but it's yours.

"My generation got the ball down the field fairly well with the civil rights movement (also not "useless") and this generation has picked up the ball and going to get it a little further down the field... "

The success of the Civil Rights Movement was a political accomplishment of Lyndon Johnson.

The anger and enthusiasm of the movement can produce some really meaningful changes if it's directed towards producing some political muscle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM

No, dick... You have it wrong... "Anger and enthusiasm" is what brought about the Civil Rights Act...l

Not exactly a football game...

Lyndon Johnson wasn't going to get the Civil Rights Act passed without the hundreds of thousands of people who did what they could do to create an environment for that to happen...

That's the way it was...

If you don't get people thinking about stuff then when you try to make a change it will be rejected...

OWS is doing ***exactly*** what the civil rights people were doing in the early 60s....

Give them (us) a break... This ain't a friggin' pep rally...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: ollaimh
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 10:05 PM

they have regulated capitalism in sweden and most of scandanavia. it works fine. they are affected by the ills in the rest of the world but they are not as affected as some countries. in canada we had a moderately regulated capitalism, under the liberals. surprise, we had no bank failures and ran budget surplusses for eleven years straight.

we had growth we just din't let the ponzi scheme capitalist steal all the money!

they were very creative about it but the fact reamins that between 1990 and 2008 they manufactured securities out of thin air that didn't exist before that time and those securities quardrupled the securities traded in new york. you have admire their ambition but the same way you admire the ambition of people like napoleon or hitler.

real growth depends on real production. the growth of the nineties to the crash was paper growth, taking advantage of americas premier position in the worlds capital markets but exporting millions of real jobs and allowing the collapse of infrastructure. now you have agutted economy that is either going to take years to recover --if at all--or will need massive infrastructure and educastional investment. the latter seems oposed by most american politicians, however it is likely the only road to real growth.

so go protestors go--and get a uniting theme,

like

BRING THE JOBS HOME


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 10:24 PM

Yes, exactly, a uniting theme. In the U.S. it would be good to pursue two points. 1) Tax Wall Street's financial transactions. They're currently not taxed. Levy a 1% tax on financial transactions. 2) Bring back the Glass-Steagall Act, which separated commercial and investment banking. The derivatives problem exploded when this act was repealed in 1996.

The OWS protests have no focus. No goals. And because of that they are easily manipulated.

Look up the names Vlad Teichberg and Peter Gelderloos. They're "anarchists" who specialize in guiding demonstrations. They're currently up to their eyes in the OWS stuff. Anarchy. When something positive could be achieved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 10:39 PM

Who are the Democrats running for president in the next election, anyone know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 11:28 PM

We'll have to find someone who "knows everything" and get him to answer that one.

Any volunteers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 12:54 AM

Interesting, Songwronger. I did a little Googling on the names you mentioned. Vlad Teichberg and Peter Gelderloos. Yes, they are avowed "anarchists," but the only really negative information I've been able to find about them comes from

Steady, now…..

Fox News Service!

Vlad Teichberg's main concern seem to be that the news media in general was simply ignoring the demonstrations, and he set about filming them and trying to publicizing them. Somehow, I see nothing wrong with that. Quite the contrary.

And some of the ideas of Peter Gelderloos, who is opposed to non-violent resistance (and has written a book on the subject), seems to have some pretty draconian ideas, but he won't find many in the OWS movement who will agree with him on that point. Not much influence there!

Leading the Occupy Wall Street protest? Financing them?

Again, these allegations come from Fox News!

Quelle surprise!!

The OWS protests have focus and their goals are quite specific, as a matter of fact. And these folks are not easily manipulated. Quite the contrary, in fact.

If Teichberg and Gelderloos are involved with OWS in any way, other than Teichberg's trying to call attention to it and Gelderloos's apparent contention that the demonstraters should indulge in violence, it appears that they are running like hell, trying to get in front of the movement, so they can look like they're leading it. As in:

"I have to see which way the people are going so I can get out in front and be their leader!"

You really need to get out more, Songwronger. Go to one of the protest gatherings and talk to some of the people involved. Find out for yourself rather that taking the word of Fox News or a bunch of Right Wing blogs.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 04:52 AM

"The OWS protests have no focus. No goals. And because of that they are easily manipulated."

Not true.

This is a mainstream media lie.

If you look up the general assembly or the "occupy" websites, you will see that there is a very clear and concise set of demands that people are happy to rally behind.

Folks - these events have been happening all over the world - not just in lots of American cities, but all over the UK and europe, South America and even as far away as china.

As for the football analogy - dick has misapplied boberts analogy, as boberts analogy is based on the idea of the players of one team being succesful against the players of the other. Dick is talking about spectators.

The OWS demonstrators are not spectators. they, and we are all players.

Working people are saying - if you want us to participate, you must renegotiate the deal.

It is very clear and simple.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 09:27 AM

What Don and Lox have said... Helen Keller can clearly see the goals of this movement from her grave...

What OWS is avoiding, and for very good reason, is becoming policy wonks and writing 200 pages policy "white papers" dealing with every last detail... That's not what this is about and would be counter-productive because then the right wing would employ an army of stat-men and bloggers to redefine the movement by starting hundreds of mini-wars over minute details... This is what they do when they know they are on the wrong side of issues... This is exactly what Teribus did here at Mudcat during the mad-dash-to-Iraq days...

We're not going to be suckered into that trap... Tax the rich works just fine... End the wars works fine... Re-regulate Wall Street works fine...

And, yes, this is BIG "corporate" MEDIA mischief... We've seen it before... There is no "liberal media"... That is just right wing mythology that is based on them wanting 100% control of the conversation... Just like now, they are peddling propaganda with this "OWS doesn't have goals" BS... That is propaganda... USDA Choice propaganda...

Hey, we've earned the right to have the conversation that we want to have and we're not going to be "fooled again"...

Our conversation!!! Our terms!!! Our time!!!

Anyone who doesn't like it is either part of the 1% or brainwashed by the 1%...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:07 AM

Anyone who's ever heard "Chimes of Freedom" and understood it will know why the OWS people have no intention of 'choosing from the issues' they bring to the table. The manifesto makes that clear I think. They do not want to buy into typecasting, pigeonholes or a specific battlefield. And why should they?

I notice an advertisement that pops up on Mudcat about 'the nine best stocks to invest in'. The very pervasiveness of that stuff indicates a sophistication that far outranks anything the OWS movement has--but that said, fu#k 'em. There is NO advantage to be gained by saying take away the sales tax and we'll all go home like good little girls and boys. We know where the media is at and it's clear who they support: the media support their owners, NOT their customers. Those 'with' will never support those 'without' and its foolish to think they ever will.

The Bank of America is up to its a$$ in lawsuits and it's scared. I don't think Mr Moynihan is sleeping the sleep of the just.

###############################################

"The evening arrived; the boys took their places. The master, in his cook's uniform, stationed himself at the copper; his pauper assistants ranged themselves behind him; the gruel was served out; and a long grace was said over the short commons. The gruel disappeared; the boys whispered each other, and winked at Oliver; while his next neighbours nudged him. Child as he was, he was desperate with hunger, and reckless with misery. He rose from the table; and advancing to the master, basin and spoon in hand, said: somewhat alarmed at his own temerity:

"Please, sir, I want some more."

The master was a fat, healthy man; but he turned very pale. He gazed in stupefied astonishment on the small rebel for some seconds, and then clung for support to the copper. The assistants were paralysed with wonder; the boys with fear.

"What!" said the master at length, in a faint voice.

"Please, sir," replied Oliver, "I want some more."

The master aimed a blow at Oliver's head with the ladle; pinioned him in his arms; and shrieked aloud for the beadle.

The board were sitting in solemn conclave, when Mr. Bumble rushed into the room in great excitement, and addressing the gentleman in the high chair, said,

"Mr. Limbkins, I beg your pardon, sir! Oliver Twist has asked for more!"

There was a general start. Horror was depicted on every countenance.

"For (r)more!¯" said Mr. Limbkins. "Compose yourself, Bumble, and answer me distinctly. Do I understand that he asked for more, after he had eaten the supper allotted by the dietary?"

"He did, sir," replied Bumble.

"That boy will be hung," said the gentleman in the white waistcoat. "I know that boy will be hung."

Nobody controverted the prophetic gentleman's opinion. An animated discussion took place. Oliver was ordered into instant confinement; and a bill was next morning pasted on the outside of the gate, offering a reward of five pounds to anybody who would take Oliver Twist off the hands of the parish. In other words, five pounds and Oliver Twist were offered to any man or woman who wanted an apprentice to any trade, business, or calling.

"I never was more convinced of anything in my life," said the gentleman in the white waistcoat, as he knocked at the gate and read the bill next morning: "I never was more convinced of anything in my life, than I am that that boy will come to be hung."

As I purpose to show in the sequel whether the white-waistcoated gentleman was right or not, I should perhaps mar the interest of this narrative (supposing it to possess any at all), if I ventured to hint just yet, whether the life of Oliver Twist had this violent termination or no."

Dickens (with a Twist)

##############################################

Forty-six percent of Congress are millionaires. Sixty million people live below the poverty line, whatever THAT is. Washington itself seems to dare not mention issues of substance lest it arouse the rabble. Well, the rabble is aroused, it's angry and it's tougher than anyone thought.

Decision theory, general equilibrium theory and mechanism design theory all indicate that it is stupid to play the game. But it's smart to understand the game being played by Wall Street and the folks it represents.

The minute OWS says, THIS is what we want, THIS is our goal, that is the minute the movement can be quantified and dealt with. There there be dragons. It is NOT in OWS's best interests to answer the question because that then defines the movement and provides Wall Street--the term I'm using for Congress, stock markets and multinationals--with information about where best to stick the knife.

No point doing their thinking for them. They know already. It's Wall Street that has left unanswered questions, not OWS. It continues to go about its business, and we will continue to go about ours, thank you very much.

IMO


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:49 AM

Anyone who believes that any financial institution will change its policies simply because there a large and loud protest is a prime candidate for buying waterfront property in Arizona. As I recall, Oliver Twist, within the system of the establishment he was living in, didn't get any more.
   OWS could be a mighty force by simply threatening to campaign against any candidate who refuse to vote for tax increases for the wealthy. Or who voted for cuts to Social Security....or, pick an issue.
Less dramatic than banjos and bongos, but much more effective.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:50 AM

Well Peace,

I think that may be your best written and best illustrated mudcat post to date.

And I agree with every word.

And it should of course be remembered that Dickens wasn't writing some mere piece of fantasy, but referring explicitly to the reality of life for those on the bottom in society when they are not protected from the ravages of the richest in society.

If there were no social welfare in the UK, that is how things would still be today.

Time for society to evolve further!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:56 AM

Oliver twist didn't get any more, but thanks to the writing of Dickens, and the organization of the labour movement, there are no more workhouses.

That change wouldn't have happened if people hadn't spoken out.

In fact, that change ha[pened precisely because people organized and spoke out.

So Dick, you are simply wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 12:57 PM

Just what sort of change do you envision?
I am an enthusiastic supporter of people organizing and speaking out; it's just that I think it's useful to know to whom you're doing the speaking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 01:30 PM

Thank you, Lox.

The following is a snip from a Reuters article on the web:

'Like many other protest movements this year, they [OWS, UK] appear almost completely leaderless, initially co-ordinated via social media platforms, inspired by events overseas and now making decisions through long, consensus-based meetings on issues from sanitation to their wider agenda.

With their generally peaceful approach and hope of finding an ill-defined "better way" to manage international capital and politics, the largely educated crowd appeared in stark contrast to the tough, angry urban youth who brought chaos and looting to London and other cities in August riots.'

Dick, many of the people there are educated. Some have high school, some college and others bachelor's, master's and even doctorate degrees from good learning institutions. They would get the 'joke' (read put down) about beachfront in Arizona. Thing is, that seems to be what Wall Street's been selling for decades, and they have at last been found out by John and Jane Doe.

The law suits filed against the Bank of America may cast more light on the whole sordid situation, but folks are wise enough to see that the court decisions, appeals and further decisions will take years, about the same number of years it took to bring the present 'crisis' to prominence--a fifteen trillion dollar crisis started when Reagan came to power and a crisis deepened by every chief executive since then.

The biggest enemy Wall Street has is common people and their new-found ability to speak WITH each other. Don't need the help of the power elite to interpret what folks are saying so they can let us all know what we think. As individuals we already know what we think. As a non-cohesive group (the rabble) we have a freedom of movement unlike never before.

The only way to "beat the house" (or House in this case) is not to play the game. The only way to win the war is not show up for any battles. We are the backdrop against which the media, Congress, Wall Street and multinationals will be shown to continue their games, and the longer that happens more people will see and understand and the more people will see and understand.

Some martial arts, for example, require that the opposition give the first strike, and in real life I have seen attackers fall over themselves trying to strike something that just wasn't there any longer. We are at our best being 'there' without being there. Hard to grasp, and THAT'S the point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 02:16 PM

999, I think you have grasped the vital point that has been eluding most people for a very long time. Well said all the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 02:48 PM

I learned part of that from you, LH. Takes a while, but some stuff actually sunk in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:00 PM

Yes I must say Bruce, that modern communications technology designed to turn a profit for Capitalism, has proved to be something of a "Trojan Horse".....rapid communications and the transfer of information is now a valuable weapon against the system.

The problem is and always was, how do we convince those with something to lose .....and that is a huge majority in our respective countries.....to ditch it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:06 PM

If Oliver, who walked up to the master with his bowl in his hands and said, "Please, sir, I want some more," in a deep, resonant voice coming from a lad with the size and general musculature of Conan the Barbarian……..methinks they would have given him more!

OWS wants are straightforward and obvious. Make the wealthy, super-wealthy, and corporations pay their fair share of taxes, put a stop to these endless and pointless wars, and restore the regulations on Wall Street, the banks, and other financial institutions—plus, make the Wall Street Ponzi schemes illegal.

Clear. To the point. Non-negotiable.

And where are all those Conan the Barbarian-size muscles? That should be obvious as well:

The vast majority of the Wall Street Occupiers are voters. And that, obviously, includes the power to withhold one's vote from particular politicians as well.

Seems pretty simple to me. Maybe even simple enough for our elected officials to grasp.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:55 PM

Ake, I am on my way out the door. I'll be back in an hour and try my best to explain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:55 PM

Possibly. How do you shake the politicians (meaning the candidates) loose from the pursestrings that control most of them? Until you have shaken a majority of them loose from that form of influence, your vote means little or nothing...given that the choices you've been given to vote FOR have usually all been bought out already. If you have no candidate available who WILL honestly represent you once elected...who do you vote for?

And how can your vote then effect real change?

The candidate in the last election whom I felt DID represent honesty and real change was Dennis Kucinich. He was not the candidate which the Democratic Party selected to run, needless to say. People like him do not GET selected by either of the major parties...nor do they get sufficient friendly coverage from the corporate media to have a hope in hell of BEING selected.

You know...the mass media can get someone elected nowadays. They do it by giving that person the right kind of media coverage. It can be orchestrated very effectively, and it is, in my opinion.

Since the mass media are owned by a few very rich people, don't you think those people will support a candidate who looks after their interests? In fact...they'll support only a candidate who looks after their interests...make that 2 candidates who will look after their interests....and they'll back whoever's outer style seems most marketable at the time. In 2008 that was Mr Obama. It was "time to dump the Republicans", and that was done very handily. But so what? In 2012 it may be somebody else, not Mr Obama, but it's just a big phony game as far as I'm concerned...because if Candidate A and Candidate B both end up serving the elite once elected, what the hell difference does it make which one the non-elite (we the 99 %) vote for?

Yeah, there may be a "lesser of two evils"... But I think we deserve a lot better than that. We need genuine transformation of this society, not more dissimulation and new "faces" pasted over the old system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 04:49 PM

I was around (and active) back in 1947 where a massive protest wound up producing some good songs, the Progressive Party and not much else.
Yes Don, the muscles come from voters. But a third party has historically been a disaster, serving only the party that the protesters like least, whether it be headed by a Ralph Nader or a Ross Perot. What does work is having a voting bloc effectively co-opt one of the existing parties, as The Tea Partisans have done with the GOP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 05:21 PM

The best way to deal with a bully is to stand up to him... That is what OWS is doing and every day that goes by there are more folks joining in to stand up to the bully... What all this does is counters some of the right winged propagandists and presents a different narrative... The right wing has controlled the conversation for 30 years... That's what OWS is all about...

Changing the conversation!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 06:11 PM

One minute ago, I saw M moore on BBC tv, when asked what he wanted from OWS, he replied that he wanted a completely new system...."the end of Capitalism.....an evil system"

Even if that is what the movement wants.....and its what I want! We still have to convince millions of ordinary people who are not politically motivated, to give up the crumbs they have gleaned from under the rich mans table; and the madness of "liberal" ideology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 06:44 PM

Well the good news is that the bug is so infectious that it is even causing traditional mudcat enemies to agree with each other.

Dick, this has nothing to do with party politics, whether you mean traditional parties or some 'new' alternative.

This is all about "democracy" ie - government by the people.

And most people don't trust party politics.

Most people don't trust politicians.

And most people definitely don't trust the 1% of capitalists who own the politicians.

Whats different?

The people are making0 their own media and propaganda - we aren't as manipulable when social media is taking over from corporate media.

We are able to organize quickly and effectively.

Look at 38 degrees - look at Avaaz ... but most of all, look how fast the riots spread in England earlier this year .... and how easy it was to run rings around the police.

A serious sustained political movement, whether it be a strike or other peaceful non-cooperation would be 1000 times as effective.

The grapevine has gone digital.


We want democracy back, we want to be paid properly and we want basic human rights like proper health care and housing.

We've seen the courage of protesters in Egypt and Syria and we are becoming emboldened and more politicized.

We aren't so easy to pacify and hypnotize as our focus is not on TV, be it "news" or be it shit propaganda masquerading as rubbish ads and sit coms.

Gil scott heron was right - the revolution will not be televised ...

... it might be on facebook and twitter though!

(and a little corner might even be on mudcat)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 07:16 PM

I agree, it has nothing to do with traditional party politics. Party politics is what has people presently hypnotized and enslaved to the status quo...and pitted against one another! Forming a 3rd party in the USA would be an exercise in futility. We don't need more political parties, and we don't need the existing political parties either. They are part of the problem. We need independent, nonpartisan social action on a massive scale....unconnected to party politics of any kind whatsoever.

That's what overturned the Mubarak government in Egypt...independent social action by millions of people. That's the only way. Political parties will not shake down or significantly alter the present power structure, because they are an essential part of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 07:24 PM

Although it should also be noted that in Egypt the protests had been going on unreported for a couple of years and that trade unions played a very large part in keeping things coordinated.

Here trade unions are run by the pigs who took over the farm house and their leaders have grown fat. This is because they need to keep the goverment and big business happy or risk being closed down and having their funding interrupted. And there are some good salaries in Unions here ...

... so sisters are having to do it for themselves as it were ...

... but thats liberation for you!



Also, it is unpleasant to report that even in the last few days, protesters in egypt were crushed by the army att night in Tahrir Square, where the lights were turned off, the tanks were driven in and people were shot ...

... we're all fighting the same enemy ... people in Bahrain, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, USA, UK, HK, ... and wall street is the symbol of their power.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 10:04 PM

Tess Vigeland is the host of "Marketplace Money" on American Public Media. I heard this on my local NPR affiliate this afternoon. Josh Brown states, briefly and to the point, just what the OWS protesters are all about.

If I were to merely post a link to the audio or printed versions of the interview, it would be gone within a few days, so I'm posting the printed version here for your enlightenment and edification.
Tess Vigeland: Inequity is arguably the main rallying cry of the Occupy movement. And on that score, the primary bogeymen are the nation's bankers, brokers and traders -- the so-called "one-percenters" who control about a third of the country's wealth.

Commentator Josh Brown is one of those one-percenters. He's an investment adviser at Fusion Analytics in Manhattan. If you think you know what his take on all this is going to be, here's his open letter to the banks that don't seem to get why people are mad.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Josh Brown: In 2008, the American people were told that if they didn't bail out the banks, there way of life would never be the same. In no uncertain terms, our leaders told us anything short of saving these insolvent banks would result in a depression to the American public. We had to do it!

At our darkest hour we gave these banks every single thing they asked for. We allowed investment banks to borrow money at zero percent interest rate, directly from the Fed. We gave them taxpayer cash right onto their balance sheets. We allowed them to suspend account rules and pretend that the toxic sludge they were carrying was worth 100 cents on the dollar. Anything to stave off insolvency. We left thousands of executives in place at these firms. Nobody went to jail, not a single perp walk. I can't even think of a single example of someone being fired. People resigned with full benefits and pensions, as though it were a job well done.

The American taxpayer kicked in over a trillion dollars to help make all of this happen. But the banks didn't hold up their end of the bargain. The banks didn't seize this opportunity, this second chance to re-enter society as a constructive agent of commerce. Instead, they went back to business as usual. With $20 billion in bonuses paid during 2009. Another $20 billion in bonuses paid in 2010. And they did this with the profits they earned from zero percent interest rates that actually acted as a tax on the rest of the economy.

Instead of coming back and working with this economy to get back on its feet, they hired lobbyists by the dozen to fight tooth and nail against any efforts whatsoever to bring common sense regulation to the financial industry. Instead of coming back and working with the people, they hired an army of robosigners to process millions of foreclosures. In many cases, without even having the proper paperwork to evict the homeowners. Instead, the banks announced layoffs in the tens of thousands, so that executives at the top of the pile could maintain their outrageous levels of compensation.

We bailed out Wall Street to avoid Depression, but three years later, millions of Americans are in a living hell. This is why they're enraged, this why they're assembling, this is why they hate you. Why for the first time in 50 years, the people are coming out in the streets and they're saying, "Enough."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vigeland: Josh Brown. He wrote a scathing blog post along these same lines earlier this week. You can also follow him on Twitter @reformedbroker.
If anyone was confused or in doubt about what it's all about, there it is!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 10:50 PM

Ake, hello.

Was thinking about how far you and I go back and the fact we've been on opposite sides of issues frequently and still never let that interfere with a good friendship. This is no different. Not one of us here need convince anyone else of anything.

The greatest fear rampant in the world today is that expressed by the money people: WHAT do they want?

They are afraid they may lose their positions of wealth, and they will if currency devalues. So, what choice do they have except to find ways to ensure that doesn't happen!

###############################################

Maggie's Farm written by Bob Dylan

I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more
No, I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more
Well, I wake in the morning
Fold my hands and pray for rain
I got a head full of ideas
That are drivin' me insane
It's a shame the way she makes me scrub the floor
I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more

I ain't gonna work for Maggie's brother no more
No, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's brother no more
Well, he hands you a nickel
He hands you a dime
He asks you with a grin
If you're havin' a good time
Then he fines you every time you slam the door
I ain't gonna work for Maggie's brother no more

I ain't gonna work for Maggie's pa no more
No, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's pa no more
Well, he puts his cigar
Out in your face just for kicks
His bedroom window
It is made out of bricks
The National Guard stands around his door
Ah, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's pa no more

I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more
No, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more
Well, she talks to all the servants
About man and God and law
Everybody says
She's the brains behind pa
She's sixty-eight, but she says she's twenty-four
I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more

I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more
No, I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more
Well, I try my best
To be just like I am
But everybody wants you
To be just like them
They sing while you slave and I just get bored
I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more

Copyright © 1965 by Warner Bros. Inc.; renewed 1993 by Special Rider Music

#########################################

Ake, they need us more than we need them. Truthfully, what's the difference between competing with each other for wages set by Wall Street and not competing with each other for the wages they set? We can all get good 'wages' by cooperating with each other and completely ignoring Wall Street. Let those a$$holes come to us with their caps in their damned hands--just for a change. This ain't for us, anyway. We'll be dead before any changes of substance are made to banking systems or ways of doing business. But our kids won't, nor their kids. Gradually, as we speak WITH each other, we shall find consensus. Wrong or right, it will be better than what we have now. Workers let go weeks before they have pensions; houses stolen by banks; cheap watches as parting gifts while the money people get five million dollar handshakes for fu#king up their businesses, and fu#king up our money earned by our labour.

I don't know exactly where this road leads, but I do know where the other one goes to, and it ain't good. Slavery, destitution, extreme poverty.

I have no answers that would convince anyone of anything. But then it's not my responsibility to have answers for questions designed to make people argue with each other. The fact we talk scares them. And for now, that's good enough. Let the money people be scared for a change. Let the arrogant scum walk a few miles in the shoes we've worn all our lives. Then, we may be able to treat as equals. Not before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:30 PM

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0oG7n6RPZ5OxyQASbdXNyoA?p=obama%20silicon%20dinner%20picture&fr2=piv
<


Pics of Obama celebrating with Silicon Valley bigwigs after Mubarak was ousted. Obama thought his CIA had a new method of installing thuggish military regimes without bloodshed, but then came Libya.

OWS was begun by a Marxist magazine and now it's being guided by right-wing anarchists who direct participants to expend their energy in non-productive ways.

And that NPR piece. They under reported the cost of the financial fiasco by TRILLIONS. They're part of the problem, same as the conservative outlets. Keep the public in the dark while pretending to shed light.

OWS makes me think of Howard Beale saying, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!" That's all well and good, but where's the plan? Watching people moan about "the 1%" doesn't accomplish anything.

The cold will soon cut back on the protests, but then the main attraction will come next year, when the economy REALLY tanks. People will go out for their comfortable little protests, and the anarchists will provocateur. I mean, hey, if you want anarchy, you're going to get it. For a while.

Either get a clear cut program FAST, or have one foisted on you by the demonic government you're threatening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 03:39 AM

Songwronger - if enough people refuse to participate, those at the top will have to redraw the social contract.

Call it blackmail if you like, but its no worse than saying "accept my cock up your ass or I'll go and give it to someone in Mexico"

Social global media is allowing more and more people too communiicate worldwide and government attempts to control the net are failing at every step.

You CAN watch BBC in the USA - you CAN get facebook in china ...

... its easy and everyone knows how to do it in places where there are restrictions.


the message will be simple ... "we're not playing till the rules are changed" ...

... big money is only powerful when it can buy people.

When people demand a higher price together, things will change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 07:38 AM

"22% approve of the Occupy movement."

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150164/Americans-Uncertain-Occupy-Wall-Street-Goals.aspx


"The poll sought to contrast support for Occupy Wall Street with another prominent American movement, the Tea Party. In the poll, 22% describe themselves as Tea Party movement supporters, 27% as opponents, and 47% as neither. Gallup has typically found that about equal percentages of Americans are Tea Party supporters or opponents, with the greatest percentage neutral. Thus, the current level of public support for Occupy Wall Street is similar to that for the Tea Party movement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: bobad
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 08:09 AM

Fox News Poll Backfires: 70 Percent Support Occupy Wall Street | Fox News is running a poll on their website asking readers if the 99 Percent movement represents their views on the economy. In a move that likely surprised the network — which has consistently belittled, smeared, distorted, and otherwise dismissed the protests — the vast majority of respondents, many of whom are likely Fox viewers, said they agree with the movement:

http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/10/12/342314/fox-news-poll-backfires-70-percent-support-occupy-wall-street/



The media demands one headline per protest: Whaddya mean there's no clear cut program


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 09:08 AM

Bobert,

Care to comment on these two reports, in light of YOUR comments about FOX Viewers???




"Fox News is running a poll on their website asking readers if the 99 Percent movement represents their views on the economy. In a move that likely surprised the network — which has consistently belittled, smeared, distorted, and otherwise dismissed the protests — the vast majority of respondents, many of whom are likely Fox viewers, said they agree with the movement:




"22% approve of the Occupy movement."

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150164/Americans-Uncertain-Occupy-Wall-Street-Goals.aspx




70% of FOX respondents ( IE, those who choose to reply to FOX polls) support , while Gallup says 22% of non-selected (IE, everyone) support the Occupy protests.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 09:14 AM

First of all any one who thinks that OWS is being directed by the right wing is deep in Coolaid-ville... But that entire line of offense/defence is nothing but a right winged talking point... The right hates OWS because it is exposing their weaknesses, which are many...

So the right wing will continue with pushing their PR propaganda...

And the polls I am hearing do not resemble the one that bb posted... Even the right winged BIG MEDIA NBC had the approval rating of 47%???

That's why polls are so unreliable... They are easily rigged.... Just as elections are rigged...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 09:25 AM

Bobert,

Let me see.

Gallup says 22% of the public in general.
NBC says 47% of the public in general.
FOX says 70% of ITS VIEWERS that responded to the survey support.

AND YOU SAY
" The right hates OWS because it is exposing their weaknesses, which are many..."

AND claim that FOX viewers are right wing.



and YOU criticise the Tea Party????????????????????

THEY are more in support of Occupy than the left-leaning NBC, or the neutral Gallup says that the general public is.

Please send up some of what you are smoking- I need an alternate reality like that!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 10:05 AM

Well, Beardie, with the track record that Faux News (owned, directed & scripted by that paragon of virtue & probity Rupert Murdoch)has established for outright lies, distortions and fantasy, how anyone with pretensions to intelligence would believe them is beyond me.

But you're free to believe what you wish...


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 10:18 AM

Well, gregie boy,

"anyone with pretensions to intelligence would believe them is beyond me."

You mean that the fact that 70% of the respondents SUPPORT the Occupy movements goals indicates how stupid they are??

What does that say about you???


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM

The polls do NOT matter. OWS started without benefit of polls, continued without benefit of polls and will continue without benefit of polls, thank you very much.

Polls are tools used to manipulate public opinion. If, as so many claim, no one KNOWS what OWS wants, how can the pollsters even begin to understand which questions to ask?

#######################################

Poll designed by an architecture student:

Do you like the building structures in the Wall Street area.

YES         72%
NO          23%
DON'T KNOW   5%


Story in the news:

A recent poll conducted by students at Justask University has concluded that 72% of the people who responded like Wall Street. This bodes poorly for Occupy Wall Street protesters.

#########################################

Meanwhile, back on the street . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 11:15 AM

Bruce,

Did you even bother to look at the poll before you commented. they tell you the question- so don't tell us

"If, as so many claim, no one KNOWS what OWS wants, how can the pollsters even begin to understand which questions to ask? "

IF that is so, I would claim that since NO ON knows what OWS wants, then NO ONE can be in support of it.

In fact, the question was asked
"Do you approve or disapprove of the goals of the Occupy Wall Street movement, or don't you know enough to say?"

IF you bothered to look you would have seen that- the result was that 22% OF THOSE ASKED THOUGHT THEY KNEW the goals, and approved of them.

As long as people here throw around that 99% number, I think it resaonable to use numbers- unless you are insisting that ONLY YOU are allowed to do so, and the rest of us have to follow a different set of rules. MY understanding is that that is one thing the OWS movement is AGAINST. Yet some here want it to be used to prevent discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 11:33 AM

The logic doesn't work, BB. It went out the window when banks were bailed out with tax payer money; when CEOs who'd screwed their corporations were given millions to retire with; when a succession of governments ripped off and created the poor; when 46% of your congress became millionaires; when 60 million people sank below the poverty line.

Sorry, buddy, but there ain't too many folks for you to convince. Tell me the above ain't true. Go ahead.

But it is true, and there's little left of the American Dream for the 99%. NO MORE.

I do not care what 2000 polled people think, chosen because they represent the average person. There are NO MORE average people. Fu#k the polls. They are tools to manipulate. NO MORE and no less.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 11:53 AM

Actually, on the subject of percentages, i think we are concentrating on the wrong demographics.

The really important percentage is the one which reflects the number of people who feel they still have a stake in the system.
I'm talking about property owners, pensioners, public employees, university graduates, those of us with a few measly grand in the bank, etc etc.....at a rough guess,80%.

Against that, those with nothing to lose at all and those with something to lose, but who dont give a flying fuck whether they lose it or not,......like me, a lifelong Communist, politically motivated against Capitalism.......20%???

Now my days as a gambler tell me that these percentages are piss poor, and we will be marginalised. If we continue we will be liquidated.

This is not the way to go, by all means get rid of the system but do it from inside, We must be united with the majority...who are conservative, so that means a change of direction from the left.

A tactical retreat......we fucked up big time in not recognising the value of Mrs Palin and the Tea Party....and its anti politics stance.

Never expect to change this system in a month or a year, think about a couple of generations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 11:56 AM

Bruce,

You are letting your anger interfere with even reading posts.

I put up a post that Gallup says of all polled, 22% support what they think are the OWS goals.
THAT poll says that 63% don't know enough to say.

Bobad posted that, contrary to expectations, the FOX poll shows 70% of respondants saying they support the goals of the OWS. I then invited comment by Bobert, since he claims that FOX viewers/listeners are all bigoted, racist, ignorant yahoos. ( who support OWS, it seems)

I am then attacked by greggie, and you seem to think that I have made some comment ABOUT THE GOALS of the OWS Movement- WHICH I HAVE NOT!!!!

Stop telling me I am wrong when for all you know I AGREE WITH YOU!!!

THAT is a certain way to make sure nothing gets done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 12:08 PM

btw, isn't



http://www.klfy.com/story/15717759/second-hand-dealer-law


the sort of thing that puts more control in the banks? I THINK that the 99% would think it a bad idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 01:15 PM

"You asked earlier about "Occupy Wall Street" and what I've said is that I understand the frustrations that are being expressed in those protests. In some ways, they're not that different from some of the protests that we saw coming from the Tea Party, both on the left and the right. I think people feel separated from their government, that the institutions aren't looking out for them "


http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/transcript-abc-news-jake-tappers-exclusive-interview-president/story?id=14764446&singlePage=true


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 02:01 PM

beardedbruce,

You I trust. Ake I trust. However, there is not one single source from any main-stream media publication I trust. NOT ONE!

The purpose of media is to manipulate. I do not care what they have to say. It is meaningless to me. I can read lies, obfuscations, bullsh#t, falsehoods, aspersions, untruths until the cows come home. And at the end of the day they will still be lies, obfuscations, bullsh#t, falsehoods, aspersions and/or untruths. Poor people don't own newspapers, television stations, radio stations. Rich people, governments, corporate conglomerates do. To me, it's that simple.

I'm not angry, I'm fed up. Period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 04:15 PM

Are you not a member now, Bruce? I tried to PM you and I couldn't find you on the list.

What I wanted to do was send you a link to this talk by David Icke about the financial meltdown, the banks, Bush and Obama, etc...it's very good, very well thought out, very clearly explained. The interviewer is on a Russian TV show (I think it's Russian...sounds like it), so his questions are in Russian, but David Icke replies in English. Since David Icke does most of the talking, this works fine for for us English-speaking viewers even if we don't comprehend the Russian language questions. So don't be put off by the brief Russian language intro at the beginning, just wait for David Icke to reply to the questions.

David Icke speaks about the world financial crisis


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 04:23 PM

When I said "Bruce", I meant 999.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 04:38 PM

I just messaged you, LH.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 04:43 PM

Got it. Thanks!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 05:11 PM

I'm about half way through the link that LH put up... Very interesting so far...

And...


...400...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 05:33 PM

Little Hawk mentions David Icke...

"...set out a moral and political worldview that combined New-Age spiritualism with a passionate denunciation of totalitarian trends in the modern world. At the heart of his theories lies the idea that the world is becoming a global fascist state, that a secret group of reptilian humanoids called the Babylonian Brotherhood controls humanity, and that many prominent figures are reptilian, including George W. Bush, Queen Elizabeth II, Kris Kristofferson, and Boxcar Willie."

Listeneng to David Icke will give you a headache.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 05:55 PM

So he's strange. He's also right about the financial 'crisis', one in a continuing line of crises brought on by crooked politicians, crooked bankers and a very crooked Wall Street.

Attack what he said about finance, or don't. Character assassination because he said what he thinks on another front has NO bearing on what he has said in this instance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 05:57 PM

That, pdq, is one thing that we agree upon... I can a take a little of David but then he, like Lyndon LaRouche, goes into a conspiracy world that I find a tad hard to believe...

Bring back Glass-Staegall and all of this goes away, anyway...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 06:07 PM

I think the less we associate OWS with David Icke the better!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 07:46 PM

I'm not suggesting you associate OWS with David Icke. I'm suggesting that you might find interest in listening to his talk about the financial crisis. It makes a lot of sense. It's what he's talking about in that video that connects to the OWS movement, because it is the essence of what the movement is protesting against. To let your personal problems with David Icke (because of some other thing he said at some time) affect your comprehension of what he's explaining in that video will not be helpful at all.

Most people are not right about everything. Most of them are right about some things, and they're mistaken about others. I think David Icke is quite correct in most of what he says in that video regarding the financial crisis, and I don't feel he has to be right about EVERYTHING else he's ever said in his whole life before I give that video my serious attention. I don't expect David Icke or anyone else in this world to have the right answer to EVERYTHING...and that leaves me free to consider this particular video on its own merits...rather than just making a kneejerk decision to accept it or reject it in its entirety merely because it's emanating from.....David Icke.

I'm willing to listen to anyone. Pay attention closely. See if it makes any sense to me. If it does make sense, I don't particularly care who said it. It's what they said that counts. What David Icke is saying in that video makes sense to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 08:12 PM

It only makes sense to a point, LH... Some of the OWS chapters have gone on record of demanding the restoration of Glass-Steagall... Repealing it, which BTW was something that the Repubs pushed and had Slick Willie on their meatgrinder over a blow job over, opened up this "prefect storm"... The repeal was the ultimate Reaganomics victory... It is also what brought about the near collapse of the economy on September of 2008...

Icke goes way too far here... He has the same story that my dad use to tell about these "5 Jews who run the entire world" conspiracy theory... That's where I get off, thank you... This isn't about "5 Jews"... It's about Reganomics... It's about a corrupt government... It's about the insanity of deregulation... Deregulated capitalism = disaster...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 08:14 PM

Give him his due. David Icke gives the clearest and most succinct explanation of the banking system, and economics in general, that I've ever heard.

This "vapor money" and the ability to manipulate it, as he describes, is one of the reasons that, in times past, there was such a strong campaign—and a successful one, obviously—to abandon the gold standard, where having a dollar bill in your hand meant that there was a dollar's worth of gold on deposit, and you could take that dollar to a bank and get the equivalent in gold. Since there is a limited supply of gold, that meant that the supply of money was limited also. Which meant that you couldn't "create money" the way the banking system does now, because for every dollar there had to be an equivalent amount of gold somewhere and you could demand actual possession of it.

Remember silver certificates? Same deal there. Every silver certificate (fives, tens, twenties, etc) had "Redeemable on demand" printed on it. They were taken out of circulation in 1965.

Were you aware, when Reagan appointed him Fed Chairman, that Alan Greenspan was a disciple of Ayn Rand? I was. And figured, "This is ominous!" Deregulation! Complete deregulation!

But—

As far as the entire video is concerned, David Icke leads us through the door into his own private fantasy. A former English sports announcer (presenter) turned writer, public speaker, and general pot-stirrer, he has written a book entitled The Biggest Secret, which is considered by many to be "the conspiracy theorists' Rosetta Stone." Some of the things he comes up with are in the realm of really bad science fiction.

But his explanation of the credit system in the U. S. is really quite good. It's where he tries to take it…….

Of course there will be those who will get on my case for not buying Icke's whole package, but—so be it.

####

Detractors of OWS can quote polls and echo Fox News 'til hell freezes over, but the comments by Josh Brown that I quote above are right on the mark. And OWS and its mirror demonstrations (some 900 cities across the country AND in cities overseas) are starting to have a salutary effect.

Among other things, it has the Right Wing peeing its pants in sheer fright.

Seattle City Councilman Nick Licata was on the radio this morning, being interviewed by KUOW's Steve Scher. Among other things, he said that the Mayor McGinn and the City Council know where OWS and our local edition, Occupy Seattle demonstrating at Westlake Park, are coming from. They have gone to Westlake Park and actually TALKED with the people there, asked questions, and listened to what they said.

One of the results is that the City Council is now examining the banks and financial agencies that the city has been using in the management of the city's funds and checking on their practices and procedures.

"And," said Licata, "we were not entirely happy with what we find. We will be making some changes!"

He also said that he knew that Los Angeles and a number of other cities were doing the same thing.

So, said banks and other financial institutions had better clean up their act or they will be losing some BIG clients!

Now, I'd say that's fairly effective, wouldn't you?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 08:23 PM

Looks as if we each came to the same conclusion, Don...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 08:30 PM

Well said, Don. I have no need for you to buy Icke's whole package. I don't buy his whole package. But I am delighted to hear someone explain the banker's Ponzi scheme of present day money creation that clearly.

Imagine what any of us could do if we could create money that way, with the mere tap of a computer keyboard. Why...we (and our colleagues) could end up running the world...and get fabulously rich.

And if it created a financial crisis, we could ask for a bailout. ;-) And then do it again. And again. And again.

Money is power. He who creates the money has the power. The banks have created virtually all the money that is now listed on their balance sheets, and the governments are in hock to them up to their eyeballs...and the public is paying the bill.

Banks must be stringently regulated to stop this from continuing to happen. And it would be a very good idea to put printed money back on a gold or silver standard, every dollar redeemable in a fixed amount of gold or silver upon demand. It used to be that way. It was discontinued so the bankers could run their Ponzi schemes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 08:42 PM

BINGO, LH...


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 09:01 PM

I've posted this a number of times before, but I think it might bear repeating.

One of the kinds of telephone solicitation calls that I get fairly often (makes me smirk) is someone from a financial institution telling me that "We can assist you in making your mortgage payments!"

"Well, thank you," say I, "but our mortgage was paid off about thirty years ago. We own our home outright."

I can hear the creak of his jaw dropping. Then he takes another breath and says, "Well, we are also equipped to assist you in paying off your credit card debt."

"Thanks again," I say, "but my wife and I make it a point to pay off our credit card balance every month. We don't have any credit card debt."

All of this is true, by the way. He never gets as far as car payments, but there, too, our 1999 Toyota Corona is all paid for—and it only has about 30,000 miles on it, and due to the fine work of the mechanic at a gas station and garage three blocks away, it's well maintained and runs just fine, thank you.

Here's a word that can give bankers cold chills:

Barter.

(Worked just fine for hundreds if not thousands of years.)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 09:06 PM

I'm in the same position, Don, and these folks just don't get it??? What, you don't want out money??? What the heck is wrong with you, man???

LOL...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 11:14 PM

Yeah, I've had similar conversations with them. I hear they call people like us "deadbeats" in the credit card industry. They consider our lack of debt to be downright unpatriotic.

Barter is a wonderful idea, Don, one that people should probably make considerably more use of. People in a community could circumvent the money system itself for many things by issuing their own "credits" through a local organization that traded goods and labour of all sorts through exchanging x amount of credits and recording it at the local credit exchange. (and some communities have done so). The government doesn't care for the idea, because they can't figure out how to tax it. Banks don't care for it either.

"What if they issued a currency and nobody showed interest?" (Same as "What if they gave a war and nobody came?") A population can only be enslaved by money if they allow themselves to be by first surrendering to it...and using it for all their transactions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 11:47 PM

The good thing to come out of OWS so far is that people are crediting the Democrat/Republican mindset less and less. Clinton didn't repeal Glass-Steagall because of the Republicans and a blowjob... Obama didn't offer to cut Social Security because of the Republicans and the Tea Party... Clinton and Obama are just as establishment (bank) as Reagan and Bush. Clinton signed NAFTA, gutting the U.S. unions. The Republicans didn't make him do it. Those days of false blame-casting are over. Clinton/Bush/Obama are all on the same team, just handing off the ball to one another, playing offense and defense.

OWS is showing, though, a new and more insidious mindset. The new "us vs them" standoff isn't between 50% on one side and 50% on the other anymore, it's now 99% vs 1%.

So, who are the 1%? In the French Revolution it was "the monarchy," and look at how many lost their heads there. After the monarchy was gone you were executed if you were just against "the revolution." And look at Pol Pot and his war against intellectuals. After the professors were dead he ending up killing, what...40% of his country because they were too intellectual?

So who is this 1% that the OWS 99% are going to "get?" And after they're gotten, who's in the next 1%? Because you'll never shake this mania once it gets hold of you. Before long, if you own a house, you'll be in the 1%. Off with your head. Own a car? Off with your head.

The saddest thing in the OWS movement is the Marxist talk about redistribution of wealth. There is no wealth in America. Not significant wealth. The wealthy have moved their money overseas. Any redistribution will be of middle-class money. OWS appears to be just the latest assault on the middle class.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 12:16 AM

Like I said, Songwronger. You need to get out and mingle, not sit at home and read Right-Wing blogs and listen to Fox News. It keeps you clueless.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 12:34 AM

"There is no wealth in America. Not significant wealth. The wealthy have moved their money overseas."

You're right about that, songwronger. They've put it all in Swiss banks and in the Cayman Islands. And this comes partly from their not paying their fair share of taxes--and from receiving multimillion dollar bonuses despite having totally screwed up. But most of the money they're shipping out of the country is bail-out money that was supposed to be used to create jobs.

THIS, as I have pointed out several times on this thread, is ONE of the things the OWS folks are angry about.

Not really that difficult to grasp.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 12:51 AM

Your old system left-right system is breaking down. Perceptive people realize that Rush Limbaugh and NPR tell the same lie about the "one trillion dollar stimulus." They both quote the same figure, and that figure is a lie. Obama's stimulus gave closer to 15 trillion to the banks. Yet the "left" and "right" news outlets say it was one trillion. An agreed-upon lie. Why would they do that? Because their job is to deceive you.

Maybe you still push the left-right thing because the new reality is too horrible to comtemplate. The new 99%/1%. The 1% WANTS you to hate them because there's nothing you can do to touch them. And when people realize they can't touch Soros and Buffett, they'll want a percentage of SOMETHING, and that's when the middle class will suffer.

You say you own your house. I want it. Get the fuck out of my house.

That's how redistribution works. That's how the 1% wants us to treat one another. The old left-right crap worked for a long time and will still work for a while, but now we're getting into anarchy and mob rule. Maybe you're holding onto the old left-right thing because you realize how dangerous the new paradigm is to you, as a property-owner. Spout me some more Marxism from the comfort of your home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 02:00 AM

Yeah, sure the old Right/Left system is breaking down. I've been saying that for years. Its primary purpose in recent elections has been to keep the public distracted by fighting with each other over the old partisan Right/Left symbology while all the parties tacitly serve the business and banking elite once elected. The Right/Left thing is just camouflage as far as I'm concerned. They trot out Bush on one side, Obama on the other, convince you that Obama is the moral antithesis to Bush...so people rush out to vote for "change"...but it's just cosmetic change. Obama gets elected and "Surprise!"...he ends up pursuing quite similar overall policies to what Bush was pursuing, and he gets away with it easier than Bush could have...because he's not Bush. The supposed "change" he inspired the hopes of the electorate with was a good sales job, but it has not happened. I don't believe it was ever intended to happen. He put some of the key architects of the banks' ponzi scheme into high positions of power in his administration. That tells me who he's really working for...the same basic interests Bush II and Clinton and Bush I and Reagan all worked for. The party divide is there to fool people into thinking they can change what's happening by voting in "the other party"...and it works beautifully! People are fooled. Again and again. What a shameful situation it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 03:50 AM

I suspect many Democrats here see this movement as merely a stick to beat conservatives with......I do not think there are many who appreciate what the required systemic change will mean in practice.

If it is not handled with more care, it could end in severe loss of life.

I notice that you are still saying that the regulation of the banking system can repair the damage done......this is "whistling in the dark"....Deregulation is a desperate measure, taken by governments of "left" and "right", to promote growth in the economy through the marketing of financial "products".

It is a desperate measure taken when a Capitalist society has nothing left to exploit.....and so begins, like a rat in a cage, to devour itself.

Without economic growth, Capitalism is doomed and I see no sign of producing that growth in the near or distant future.

Whatever the future holds, it will be neither easy, nor "liberal"

BITE THE BULLET!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 04:18 AM

"So, who are the 1%? In the French Revolution it was "the monarchy," and look at how many lost their heads there."

About 13,000.

However, that is nowhere near the number who have died as a result of policies that killed millions around the world through starvation, war and other forms of genocide. I have great difficulty feeling sorrow for people who have created 60,000,000 victims who hang onto life with no hope of a tomorrow.

Mob rule? I fail to see how people sleeping in parks is mob rule. They rule nothing, not even their own lives. The so-called 1% deserve what the get, even if it is their bloody heads handed to them.

The houses you mention being stolen: the 1% have already stolen those houses. Three million houses, and that's a low figure. I have never wept for Custer, Stalin or Pol Pot, and I will never weep for the scum who played, play and continue to play games with people's lives. Save your sorrow for those who need it but maybe at last will no longer want it.

The breakdown in social order was and is not caused by people sleeping in parks. It is caused by those who left them no place else to sleep. The breakdown in social order is not caused by people stealing bread to eat. It is caused by those who have priced bread beyond ordinary means.

I feel no empathy or sympathy for the Evita Perons of this world. Nor for the Eichmanns and Pinochets who do their biddings. Nor for the Wall Street crowd so inconvenienced by the mob in the park. Fu#k 'em. They felt no remorse when hundreds of millions died as a result of the policies and practices that allowed them to steal their money. I feel no sorrow or remorse for them now.

"Although the pharmaceutical industry claims to be a high-risk business, year after year drug companies enjoy higher profits than any other industry. In 2002, for example, the top 10 drug companies in the United States had a median profit margin of 17%, compared with only 3.1% for all the other industries on the Fortune 500 list.1 Indeed, subtracting losses from gains, those 10 companies made more in profits that year than the other 490 companies put together. Pfizer, the world's number-one drug company, had a profit margin of 26% of sales. In 2003, for the first time in over 2 decades, the pharmaceutical industry fell slightly from its number-one spot to third, but this was explained by special circumstances, including Pfizer's purchase of another drug giant, Pharmacia, which cut into its profits for the year. The industry's profits were still an extraordinary 14% of sales, well above the median of 4.6% for other industries.2 "

Don't cry for me Argentina? Unlikely. I'll probably dance in the streets.

No more!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 08:46 AM

Before long, if you own a house, you'll be in the 1%.

I see the Horatio Alger myth is alive & well. Not to mention false class consciousness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 08:52 AM

Interesting view Here


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 08:55 AM

Don't know where you get your supposed "facts", songwronger, but they aren't facts but mythology... Glass-Steagall was on the Reaganomic practitioners hit list going way back... The Republican Congress repealed it knowing full well that with all the dirty tricks they had played on Clinton that he was not going to repeal it... That's purdy much why he went along with Welfare Reform...

As for Obama giving a $15T stimulus to the banks??? Hog wash... He did no such thing... Reality is that he came into office with a collapsing economy and the strongest opposition party since Abraham Lincoln and he has done what he could... Which ain't all that much... The actual stimulus was $300B in spending and $400 in tax cuts...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 09:15 AM

Oh, and just for the record, Obama was not on the architectural firm that designed Reaganomics... He was the poor guy who had and has to deal with the corrupt bastards who did and who are hell bent on keeping Reaganomics as our economic model... And he is being out PR'd because these bastards also own 100% of BIG MEDIA...

And that's why we have folks out there spreading "Obama gave $15T" propaganda...

Garbage in = garbage out...

And as for the OWS movement being controlled by the right wing??? Koch head mythology plucked from thin air...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 09:25 AM

Songwronger,

You need to listen to them - its no secret.

the OWS keeps repeating itself again and again.

The 1% who have all the wealth and power.


That is called feudalism - in this case corporate feudalism.


Democracy has always been about taking power out of the hands of the 1% and sharing it with the other 99%.


This is the same thing.


The 1% has somehow managed to get all the power back and the 99% are saying - hold on time to do a democracy reset.


It isn't about us and them, that is just taking language from other unrelated issues (nationalism, race, gender etc) and misapplying it.


This is 100% about simple straight forward democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 09:28 AM

Anyone who thinks that OWS is being controlled by the right wing ain't going to listen to any logic, Lox...

I mean, the guy is a tin-foiler...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 09:29 AM

PS - noone is talking about rediistribuitiing weath.

This is fiction.

They are talking about a fair wage - so you don't have to work 3 jobs and never see your kids just so you can pay off the medical bills.

They are talking about preventing corporate crime from being committed.



Don, LH and Bobert,


If you want to learn something really useful about the Banks, check out Nomi Prins. Take your tiime doing it and you won't regret it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 10:40 AM

"...The saddest thing in the OWS movement is the Marxist talk about redistribution of wealth. There is no wealth in America. Not significant wealth. The wealthy have moved their money overseas. Any redistribution will be of middle-class money." ~ Songwronger

There is a lot of truth in that statement.

The cause of he current Depression was the huge drop in residential house values.

Why real estate market was pushed to absurd highs is really the question, not the fact that it eventually collapsed.

Residential property owners, most of whom are here in the U. S., lost about 15 billion dollars in value. They also lost their ticket to the Promised Land. The famous Middle Class, if not dead, is on life support.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 10:45 AM

"Why real estate market was pushed to absurd highs is really the question, not the fact that it eventually collapsed."

It's certainly one of the questions, pdq. There's only so many millions a fifty-thousand dollar house can be sold for. Of course if it's repossessed lotsa times, the money will roll in until it doesn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 10:50 AM

"...Residential property owners...lost about 15 billion dollars..." ~ me

Of course, that should be 15 trillion dollars. The figure is so staggering that my brain seems to have rejected it as unreasonable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:07 AM

Bobert is in solidarity with the American Nazi Party:

ANP Report for October 16, 2011

Racial Comrades: I am going to address the issue of this "Occupy Wall Street" fervor that has been sweeping the land like a breath of cleansing air!

THE NATIVES ARE GETTING RESTLESS, AND ZOG FEARS IT MIGHT HAVE A POPULAR UPRISING ON ITS HANDS - finally!

This issue is TAYLOR MADE for National Socialists, as well as WN who are serious about DOING SOMETHING - MORE - than shouting "racial slurs" and acting like "poster boys of hate" loons.

After all - JUST WHO - are the WALL STREET BANKERS? The vast majority are JEWS - and the others are SPIRITUAL JEW materialists, who would sell their own mother's gold teeth for a PROFIT. And MORE and MORE people are AWARE of this truth, are not only NOT afraid to TALK ABOUT IT - they're shouting it on WALL STREET!

I urgently URGE all of you to TAKE PART and JOIN IN when these protests hit your neck of the woods. Produce some flyers EXPLAINING the "JEW BANKER" influence - DON'T wear anything marking you as an "evil racist" - and GET OUT THERE and SPREAD the WORD! Put as a "contact point" on your literature, our www.ANP14.com address - it won't immediately "scare off" some of these scaredy-cats for even looking at our FACTS - for FACTS they ARE!

If you are unable to produce your own leaflets - check out the "support" section of our website - there are a LOT of good flyers there to utilize.

This issue reminds me a LOT of the "GASOLINE SHORTAGE" of the 1970's - where National Socialists found a HUGE receptive audience, for our viewpoints - per the JEWISH CONTROL of OUR GOVERNMENT and its insane support for Zionist Israel, and the Arab Oil Boycott that hit OUR people so hard.

As I have so often in the past spoke on - the White Working Class - is going PAST, the BOILING POINT, and is quickly reaching ULTIMATE EXPLOSION! THEY want ANSWERS! THEY want RESULTS! All of which this evil corrupt, decadent JUDEO-CAPITALIST SYSTEM is incapable of giving them. WHY? Because its BOUGHT and SOLD to the CORPORATE ELITISTS who are fast turning America into a "South American" style - THIRD WORLD WAGE-SLAVE STATE - ( complete with MILLIONS of BROWN illegal aliens willing to ACCEPT YOUR JOB for LOW WAGES and NO BENEFITS ) where, currently 3% of the population CONTROL 85% of the nation's WEALTH! And the "GREAT DIVIDE" is GROWING each and every year that passes.

WE - the WHITE WORKING CLASS - have been LIED TO and totally DECIEVED - just the other day, the system APPROVED THREE MORE so-called "Free-Trade" deals. ALL of which mean that MORE JOBS are going to be SENT OVERSEAS - YOUR JOBS! Don't you CARE? Enough to DO SOMETHING?

NOW is the TIME! GET INVOLVED! IT'S YOUR FUTURE THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

YOU can DO - ONE of TWO THINGS - SUBMIT to the uncaring GREED of these CORORATE, WALL STREET THUGS and their SOCK-PUPPETS in GOVERNMENT. OR, - YOU can RESIST! I CHOOSE RESISTANCE for MY FAMILY and MYSELF!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:24 AM

It always amazes me what a frontal lobotomy and a quart of hard liquor can inspire people to write.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:06 PM

Sawz hasn't had & doesn't need a frontal lobotomy. He comes by his stupidity naturally. As for the rotgut, I dumnno.

There is a lot of truth in that statement.

But there's a lot more bullshit, PeeDee. Marxist? Please.

The "cause" of the "depression" was de-regulation of financial institutions, repeal of the Glass–Steagall Act, massive tax cuts and Reaganomics. Lets give credit where credit is due, eh?

They also lost their ticket to the Promised Land.

Ah, but they never HAD a ticket to the promised land, only the Horatio Alger delusion..


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:35 PM

GF has nothing but personal attacks to offer.

They illustrate his personality and his thought processes perfectly.

Do not question the facts. You are ill equipped for that. Instead attack the person in an attempt to bring the facts into question. Ritual defamation is easier than disproving facts.


"with all the dirty tricks they had played on Clinton that he was not going to repeal it" Clinton could have vetoed it. Why didn't he?

"Today, Congress voted to update the rules that have governed financial services since the Great Depression and replace them with a system for the 21st century,"then-Treasury Secretary Lawrence H. Summers said at the time. "This historic legislation will better enable American companies to compete in the new economy."

Lawrence Henry Summers is an American economist. He served as the 71st United States Secretary of the Treasury from 1999 to 2001 under President Bill Clinton. He was Director of the White House United States National Economic Council for President Barack Obama until November 2010. Summers is the Charles W. Eliot University Professor at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government. He is the 1993 recipient of the John Bates Clark Medal for his work in several fields of economics.

Summers also served as the 27th President of Harvard University from 2001 to 2006. Summers resigned as Harvard's president in the wake of a no-confidence vote by Harvard faculty that resulted in large part from Summers's conflict with Cornel West, financial conflict of interest questions regarding his relationship with Andrei Shleifer, and a 2005 speech in which he suggested that the under-representation of women in science and engineering could be due to a "different availability of aptitude at the high end," and less to patterns of discrimination and socialization.

Summers has also been criticized for the economic policies he advocated as Treasury Secretary and in later writings. In 2009, he was tapped by President Obama to be the director of the White House National Economic Council.


Them Harvard guys know their shit alright.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:59 PM

I meant the remarks penned by the Nazis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 03:07 PM

Sawzaw - I don't doubt that the American Nazi Party or any other neo-Nazi types would be pleased by massive social unrest and anger at bankers, and I don't doubt that they would hope to take advantage of it in some way....

But so what? That is no reflection on the OWS movement itself. You don't become "evil" yourself just because someone else reacts favorably to a situation which might prove politically advantageous to them in some way if they can turn it to their advantage.

What is your point? That Nazis are out to get Jews and are on a racial superiority trip? I think we already knew that.

You seem to be just as upset with the bankers as the protestors are. What would you like to do about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 03:15 PM

Felonious Munk's commentary on the "crisis"


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 03:21 PM

Awright! LOL! I have a smile on my face for the first time today. Feels good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 03:23 PM

Lox, thanks for the reference to Nomi Prins. I Googled the name, quickly scanned a couple of web sites (brief note on Wikipedia, then her own site, and a quick glance at a couple of others).

As Arnie said in that movie, "I'll be back!!"

It looks like this lady knows, not only where all the bodies are buried, but who dunnit! And her book titles say "MUST READ!!"

Again, thanks for the referral! Bobert! LH! Check her out!

####

Judging from the tone of the last few posts by Songwronger, pdq, and Sawzaw, the OWS movement must be getting to them a bit. Along with the barrage of Right Wing propaganda, I detect a distinct note that verges on frenzy!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 03:26 PM

Do not question the facts. You are ill equipped for that.

That's both the funniest & most inane statement you've come up with in a long time, Sawz, & believe me, it has some tough competition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 03:29 PM

It just occurred to me, Sawzaw, that American Nazis are opposed to cannibalism, drunk driving, and child rape.

So am I.

And they like fresh corn on the cob.

So do I!

Does this put me in solidarity with American Nazis? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 03:39 PM

They came FIRST for the Communists.....but "liberals" hate Communists!!.......Go figure! :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 04:25 PM

Interesting,

In my last post I pointed out that"redistribution of wealth" is not on the OWS agenda.


In the very next post, pdq walks right on by and starts explaining what the problem with redistributing the wealth is ...


... Talk about straw men ... the right wing is building straw godzillas ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 04:29 PM

Don, You won't regret it - she knows not only whodunnit and where the bodies are buried, but how it was done and the motive.

In addition, there is no better or more experienced or more qualified economist or finacier on the planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 04:50 PM

Ditto that. The gal's got brains and guts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:11 PM

Brains are superfluous and actually detrimental in present the present day U.S. of A.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:58 PM

That depends on what you're planning to do with them. It can endanger your chances of being elected, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 07:14 PM

Hey, ya'll... Just got home from another day of driving the P-Vine to doctors appointments and still have things to do this evening other than pudder stuff so it may not be until tomorrow before I get to Nomi Prins but I will...

I do find it typically Sawz to twist shit into a shit pretzel with Nazis... That takes the kind of twisting that would have us believe that the Jews were responsible for the Holocaust but that what Sawz does... ((((yawn)))

Glad that others are seeing right thru Songwronger's wrong song... Wrong as wrong can be... What next??? The OWS responsible for the kidnapping of the Linburg baby??? I mean, these tin-foilers are just downright unbelievable in the utter horse poo that that are willing ti ingest and spit out as "facts"???

More later...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 08:53 PM

Okay, now I've at least skimmed thru Nomi Prins writings and other than being a complete and total fox, she has it figured out...

I have written here on other threads the BS games that Wall Street plays to extract real cash out for their guys... I have compared "credit default swaps" to a bunch of rich guys sitting around a poker table playing with real people's money and another bunch of rich guys behind them with side bets and no matter who wins or loses, real money is "extracted" out of our economy that was earned by working people and buried in rich people's backyards...

This is the problem... Be it "derivatives" or "credit default swaps" it doesn't matter... These are ballgames that Wall Street crooks use to extract cash out of our economy... That money can no longer be used to be spent and therefore go from hand to hand and that is what GNP is all about... Dollars have to move... The rich have taken trillions out of circulation... Doesn't take a PhD in economics to tell ya' that that ain't good for the economy...

I mean, let's get real here...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 09:44 PM

Nomi Prins writes about the OWS movement:

The protesters behind Occupy Wall Street and their supporters, of which I am one, share a gut feeling of utter disgust, rage and frustration at the havoc our nation's policies, from Washington to Wall Street, have wreaked not only on this current economy, but on hope of a more stable, widespread financial security for the future.

As such, the manifesto released by Occupy Wall Street is actually fairly complete, more so than its detractors would have people believe. The list includes requirements that others and I have argued for years, such as bringing back Glass-Steagall (i.e., breaking up the banks) and detaching corporate money and its influence from the political system.

More than at any other time in our nation's history, bipartisan political leaders, regulatory bodies and quasi-private entities, like the Federal Reserve, have subsidized an unstable, risk-laden, abusive and sometimes criminal banking system, which, through its unchecked practices, has catalyzed what I consider another Great Depression that will last for years.

Beyond the explicit demands and solutions of the manifesto, many of which exist at a level more complex than the dozens of different slogans paraded through streets nationwide, there are more visceral needs at a basic human level that prompted people to demonstrate.

First and foremost, protesters want accountability from Wall Street ("They got bailed out, we got sold out.") They seek punishment for people who committed economic crimes against the population, rather than indignant political gamesmanship that produces no result.

("From New York to L.A., Make the Wall Street Bankers Pay.") People get hauled into jail for minor drug infractions, and yet major fraud and market and securities manipulation remain rampant and systemic.

Protesters want jobs and the financial security that comes with them.

As in countries like Greece, Spain, Ireland and Egypt, more than 25% of the youth in this country are unemployed - and that number is growing.

Add that to the 16% to 17% of underemployed individuals, and it's no wonder that desperation has reached this visible point.

I wrote in this publication as the demonstrations in Cairo were reaching their peak that they were more about economic desperation than desire for political or leadership change. If people can't afford to eat or protect themselves financially, they revolt - there's nothing left to lose at that point.

Students want affordable education. Due to our current monetary policy of near zero-rate money, banks receive exceedingly cheap financing terms, which they have not bestowed upon their degree-seeking customers.

Homeowners want to keep their homes. To date, there have been about $1 billion of SEC mortgage-related "settlements" with Wall Street. They are negotiated absent requiring any admission of guilt, nor a dial-back of foreclosures or increase in refinancings to help borrowers. With $7 trillion of value lost from the housing market in the past few years, people understandably want to revise their economic profiles.

The biggest banks make that nearly impossible, despite the multitrillion-dollar largesse received from the government in their darkest hours.

Finally, protesters want fairer distribution of wealth and taxes.

They don't want cutbacks to social/economic programs, or for public service or private sector jobs to pay for federal generosity to a Wall Street comprising banks that are not just too big to fail, but bigger than they were before their subsidies and bailouts were initiated a few years ago. ("They Say Cut Back, We Say Fight Back")

In other words, the protesters may be learning from each other as they go along - and are all there for different reasons, with different degrees of knowledge and understanding of how to reach the goals they seek and even the complexity of the span of demands that exist and may grow. And that's just fine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 10:02 PM

Hey, I'm in agreement with the 99% folks. There has to be change. Unfortunately it's pretty late in the game, and the people who've taken the field are being run around in circles. The 1% has fled, and now they're stirring up the left-behinds. The 99% COULD take control of the situation and effect change, but that won't happen as long as they allow themselves to be directed by their current corps of handlers. The elite will suck all the energy out of OWS the way they sucked money out of the banks. OWS needs unified, strong demands. The longer the movement goes without them, the less effective it will be.

Clinton and Glass-Steagall. So Reagan made him repeal it? Jeez. Learn something new every day. I missed the photo of Reagan holding the gun to his head. And what else? Oh, NAFTA. Did Bush make Clinton sign that? And did Bush Jr. make Obama run up a 15 trillion dollar taxpayer tab with his stimulus package? So it's Republicans that make Democrats do all these things? Good to know.

Spoiler alert: the Democratic and Republican presidents have been working together to destroy America's middle class, and at the end of the show millions of extras are sitting on the curbs in front of their seized homes and wailing about Republicans and racism. A downer ending. I'd rewrite it if I could.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 10:23 PM

Bill Clinton was a Nixon Republican... I wouldn't have voted for him as dog catcher... I was pounding doors for Green Party...

So what???

The reality is that the FAT CATS on Wall St. absconded with a $14T of someone else's money...

Here's where I kinda have to part from Nomi's analysis... TARP had a dollar amount... TARP is over... Why do we make this the government's fault??? I mean, the banks are stealin' from everyone they can... And the Tea Party Republicans said that's fine with them... We don't need Washington meddling in our affairs...

And that's the way it is...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:27 PM

"And did Bush Jr. make Obama run up a 15 trillion dollar taxpayer tab with his stimulus package?"

Bush ran up half that tab, SS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:52 PM

No, no, no. Bush had his "bailout." And it was so good that Obama got sloppy seconds with his "stimulus." Together they took about 25 trillion dollars from American taxpayers with that one-two. And Obama got greedy just recently and tried to dip in again with his "jobs program," but people saw it for the third bailout it really was and rejected it.

The real fun will begin when the Bank of America claims U.S. taxpayers are responsible for their 75 trillion worth of derivatives debt. Politicians will test the waters to see if they can get away with it, and if they can, they'll saddle us with that. And Obama will say Bush made him do it, or the Tea Party or something like that, and diehard Democrats will support him.

Meanwhile, Democrats aren't working to get that monster out of office. They're being "politically active" with the OWS protests. Makes me want to cry. Obama the mass murderer is going to slither into another nomination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 01:19 AM

. . . little Mary Sunshine. . . .

Why don't we just give up, eh?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 08:51 AM

FACT: The dollar amount of Obama's stimulus package was $700B, of which $300B went into "shovel ready" projects and $400B went into less stimulating tax cuts...

MYTHOLOGY: "Together they took about 25 trillion dollars"

SUMMATION: The above poster is part of the ObamaHateBrigade and rather than use facts just makes up stuff??? I mean, why not $100T, songwronger??? No, make it $10G (as in gazillion)...

Now, I ain't exactly happy with Obama but the mythology of the right wing is absolutely astounding and imaginative...

But there is a nugget of truth in there and that is the banks have created several "products" (what a strange word???) that they use to siphon cash out of their corrupt banking practices... Derivatives and credit default swaps should be illegal... This is theft... This is why banks aren't making those loans to small businesses... They are too busy figuring out how to game their own selves??? Go figure???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 10:04 AM

Do the math on the national debt:

Date               Debt

09/30/2010        $13,561,623,030,891.78
09/30/2000        $5,674,178,209,886.86
09/28/1990        $3,233,313,451,777.25
12/31/1980        $930,210,000,000.00
12/31/1970        $389,158,403,690.26
12/30/1960        $290,216,815,241.68
06/30/1950        $257,357,352,351.04
06/29/1940        $42,967,531,037.68
06/30/1930        $16,185,309,831.43
07/01/1920        $25,952,456,406.16
07/01/1910        $2,652,665,838.04
07/01/1900        $2,136,961,091.67
07/01/1890        $1,552,140,204.73
07/01/1880        $2,120,415,370.63
07/01/1870        $2,480,672,427.81
07/01/1860        $64,842,287.88
07/01/1850        $63,452,773.55
01/01/1840        $3,573,343.82
01/01/1830        $48,565,406.50
01/01/1820        $91,015,566.15
01/01/1810        $53,173,217.52
01/01/1800        $82,976,294.35


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 10:10 AM

Homeowners want to keep their homes. To date, there have been about $1 billion of SEC mortgage-related "settlements" with Wall Street. They are negotiated absent requiring any admission of guilt, nor a dial-back of foreclosures or increase in refinancings to help borrowers. With $7 trillion of value lost from the housing market in the past few years, people understandably want to revise their economic profiles. ~ Maomi Prins

That is the lowest estimate I have heard. Some guess it is closer to a $17 trillion drop in the value just of residential real estate.

TARP bailout funds totaled about $770 billion, $420 billion of which was spent after Obama took office.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 10:36 AM

Students want affordable education. Due to our current monetary policy of near zero-rate money, banks receive exceedingly cheap financing terms, which they have not bestowed upon their degree-seeking customers. ~ Naomi Prins, again

Sounds like she missed this one since Obama ended all federal-susidized student loans. All such money comes directly from the federal bureaucracy now and none is meaded out through private lenders.

Note that federal-subsidized loans are dead, not federal student loans which are going strong.

Oh, and there is at least $1 trillion in student loans outstanding that people have no intentions of paying back.

Some of that money is owed by members of Congress!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 10:40 AM

I hope the folks that make up the OWS are more focussed than those camped out in the churcyard of St.Pauls Cathedral in London. A little investigation has shown that the assembly has attracted, apart from those concerned with questioning the financial world and anti-capitalists, a hotch-potch of others. Anti fox hunting group, street singers on about world peace, vegan cake makers, a few of the usual "rentamob", computer hackers, anti war and arms dealers, climate change scaremongers and no doubt some other miscellaneous mal-contents. The sad thing about it is that there is no concensus among them as to what to do and how to do it. They are no better informed or equipped than the politicians and financiers against whom they are venting their spleen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:14 AM

"The sad thing about it is that there is no concensus among them as to what to do and how to do it."

Sounds like they'd be naturals for government, pick a country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:58 AM

Actually, there is a lot of consensus with OWS...

End the wars

Tax the rich

Get $$$$ out of politics...

Kill Citizen's United...

Bring back Glass-Steagall...

etc....

Now if ya'll want 200 page "white papers", forget it... That is not what we are about... That's just the current right wing's attack on the movement... Our conversation... Not yours... We won't get fooled again...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 12:41 PM

Let's hope not, Bobert.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 01:08 PM

PDQ - I found a million websites atating that Obama "recommended" ending subsidized student loans - none that say he actually did it ...

Besides - this recommendatiion came about in feb 2011 (in august this was still not policy)

When did Prins make her comments?


I think you will find that she has missed nothing but is 100% on top of her game.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 01:10 PM

Yes - there we are - The bill would come into effect in July 2012 ...

So I am sorry to be the one to tell you pdq but you are misinformed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 01:12 PM

"That's both the funniest & most inane statement you've come up with in a long time, Sawz, & believe me, it has some tough competition. "

You can prove that by actually discussing the facts instead of using ad hominem attacks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 01:46 PM

Mark Kantrowitz / Publisher of FinAid and Fastweb

September 22, 2009


The US House of Representatives passed the Student Aid and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 2009 (SAFRA) on September 17, 2009 by a party-line vote of 253 to 171.

This legislation eliminates the federally-guaranteed student loan program and replaces it with 100% direct lending from the federal government. SAFRA uses the savings to fund an increase in the Pell Grant program among other initiatives. The US Senate is expected to consider its own version of the legislation within a few weeks.

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimated that ending the origination of federal education loans by banks and other financial institutions would save the federal government $87 billion over the next ten years.

The education lenders countered with their own proposal, but the CBO scored it as saving $13 billion less. The Obama administration argues that the Direct Loan program saves the government money by eliminating the middleman. However, much of the savings comes from the federal government's lower cost of funds.

From a practical perspective, most students will not notice much of a difference between the Direct Loan and federally-guaranteed student loan programs. Money is fungible — it's still green whether it comes from a bank or from the US Department of Education.

The Direct Loan program has a lower interest rate on the PLUS loan program (7.9% versus 8.5%) due to a legislative drafting error that was never corrected. PLUS loan approval rates are also higher in the Direct Loan program. Customer service is a bit better during the loan origination process in the Direct Loan program, but a bit worse during repayment.

However, the US Department of Education has awarded contracts to four of the largest education lenders to service loans in the Direct Loan program. The SAFRA legislation has no impact on existing student loans or borrowers who have already graduated.

About half of the savings will be used to index the maximum Pell Grant to the inflation rate plus 1%. It would increase to $5,550 in 2010-2011 and likely reach $6,900 by 2019-2020. However, it does not turn the Pell Grant into a true entitlement program. Congress could still cut Pell Grant funding during the annual budget appropriations process as it did in 2008.

The legislation also eliminates all of the asset questions and many of the untaxed income questions on the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA), cutting about a page from the six-page form. This will eliminate any penalty for savings in the federal need analysis formula, so there will no longer be any disincentive to saving for college.

SAFRA includes several provisions relating to student loans. The interest rate on subsidized Stafford loans for undergraduate students will switch to a variable rate capped at 6.8% starting on July 1, 2012. Otherwise the interest rate would have increased from 3.4% to 6.8% on that date, a big jump.

Annual funding for the Perkins Loan program would increase four-fold from $1.5 billion to $6.0 billion a year. While the new Perkins loan would no longer have subsidized interest, the interest rate would remain at 5.0%. Students at many more colleges would become eligible for the Perkins loan.

The new College Access Challenge Grant program would be focused on increasing enrollment, persistence and completion rates. It would fund financial literacy programs and make it easier for students to transfer from 2-year colleges to 4-year colleges. There would also be a significant increase in funding for community colleges and minority institutions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 02:07 PM

Student Aid and Fiscal Responsibility Act (SAFRA)

Provisions of the Student Aid and Fiscal Responsibility Act (SAFRA) were included in the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act (HCERA) of 2010, which was signed into law by President Obama on March 30, 2010. The legislation makes college more affordable for millions of Americans, at no new cost to taxpayers.

The Congressional Budget Office estimates the legislation would generate $61 billion in net savings over the next 10 years by ending the Federal Family Education Loan Program. The reconciliation bill directs those savings to students and families by:

    * Investing $36 billion over 10 years to increase the maximum annual Pell Grant award to $5,550 in 2010 and to $5,975 by 2017. Starting in 2013, the award will indexed at the Consumer Price Index and increase with costs-of-living. This includes an investment of $13.5 billion to fund the shortfall due to increased Pell Grant demand;
    * Investing $750 million to bolster college access and completion support for students, part of which will increase funding for the College Access Challenge Grant program;
    * Making federal loans more affordable for borrowers to repay by investing $1.5 billion to strengthen an Income-Based Repayment program. New provisions would lower the monthly cap to just 10 percent (currently 15 percent) of discretionary income for new borrowers after 2014; and
    * Investing $2 billion in a competitive grant program for community colleges to develop and improve educational or career training programs.

In addition, the SAFRA directs $10 billion of savings back to the U.S. Treasury toward deficit reduction.


{This shows that the provisions were indeed passed and became law. The glowing sales pitch above is pure propaganda as the real result was to end federal-guaranteed student loans and put the decision-makig power firmly in the hands of federal activists and thei friends.}


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 02:42 PM

Quote any little snippets you like.
If you look at all the facts, it is very clear how we ended up here.
Everyone in the USA should be required to read this.
If you get to the end and don't agree - fine (but please use data to refute).
But it should be required reading.

https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dfjpnvj7_362gqsrdddt&revision=_latest&start=0&theme=blank&cwj=true

slide show


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 03:14 PM

TIA has pretty much summed it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 03:44 PM

Thanks for posting that, TIA!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 05:14 PM

I've seen that graph before and heard it described as the "bikini graph"... Purdy much sums up Reaganomics... A completely dumb idea gone from dumber to dumbest when the economy was on verge of going off the cliff in September of 2008... And here's the kicker... The Republican presidential candidates all want even more of it???

Thanks for posting it, TIA...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 08:45 PM

The reason that the Wall Street Protests work is that the protesters have connected the dots and can't be pinned down to a sound byte issue.

Corporations and banksters are greedy. They make lots of money which they spend on:

1. war
2. pollution
3. destroying the middle class
4. destroying small businesses
5. paying CEO's too much at the expense of the taxpayer
6. foreclosures
7. cutting benefits for poor and middle class
8. supporting shadow organizations like ALEC
9. supporting politicians by buying them off
10. suppressing free speech (by buying off the main stream media)
11. buying off the police in New York City who pepper spray and abuse demonstrators
12. destroying unions
13. allowing lobbying to dominate politicians
14. gambling with taxpayer's money
15. being sociopaths
16. shipping jobs overseas
17. flaunting their wealth with champagne toasts while people are hungry

(The beat goes on. What's not to understand?)

Fortunately the demonstrators are smart enough not to be collared by some pundit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 08:48 PM

BINGO, Strings...

This is why the right wing is pushing this mythology that OWS doesn't have any positions... No, it has plenty... No 200 page "white papers", thank you... And there won't be any... That's a trap...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 08:54 PM

"Corporations and banksters are greedy. They make lots of money which they spend on:"

They make money from that list of things, SS. It's simply re-investments to them.

"Monetarily, in 1940 dollars, the estimated cost [of WW II to the USA] was $288 Billion. In 2007 dollars this would amount to approximately $5 Trillion. In addition, the effects of the war on the U.S. economy were that it decisively ended the depression and created a booming economic windfall. Because the United States mainland was untouched by the war her economic wealth and prosperity soared as she became the world leader in manufacturing, technology, industry and agriculture."

It's a mere bagatelle in comparison, but there is still 60 billion dollars unaccounted for from the war in Iraq. Wasn't my money so I ain't complaining, but it makes me wonder why youse guys aren't asking about it. Sixty billion here, 500 billion there and pretty soon it adds up to real money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 10:16 AM

Guest 999,

It's important to connect the dots. You are right. Naturally, the investors don't care about the American public. They wouldn't care about the stolen money in Iraq either.

I don't completely buy the theory that the effects of the war ended the great depression by itself. Roosevelt's policies in place had a lot to do with what followed.

One proof for this is that the US has conducted at least three wars and is still sliding
into a depression. One reason is that the country doesn't support these wars. There are holdouts from the 1940's who remember the so-called Great War and have a fantasy about it returning to the old days when life for them was less complex. Most Americans according to polls don't think the US incursions are doing much good.

This is another reason why people are in the streets. They are asked to pay for useless wars so that GE and other contractors can make money for their greedy CEO's.

You say it's business as usual but I say it's sociopathy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 10:25 PM

Seems that everyone who is threatened by OWS wants details...

Hey, the details are for Congressional staffers...

End the wars and tax the rich...

Income inequality...

Corrupt electoral system...

I mean, this ain't all that tough...

I'm tired... I was the "drummer boy" today and I drummed and drummed and I'm tired...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 11:06 PM

Many are tired Bobert... gotta get big money outta governing... just one problem... big money pays and big money says... and there ain't nuthin you or I can do about it short of using force and that ain't viable is it?

Protest all ya want but what's it really gonna do? The rich use cruise missiles. I gotta a shotgun. Yer welcome to it. But I just don't see it makin any difference.

Maybe a rocket launcher?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 11:36 PM

Well, gn-ze... Two choices... Let the rich continue playin' "Deliverance" with *US* or not...

Your pick...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 12:55 AM

The rocket launcher of politics is the organized voting bloc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 03:14 AM

Suppose you're right, Dick. Let's look at the picture.

There will be three 'sets' of elections for 2012's 'new' federal government.

1) President: Some Repub or Obama.

2) Senate: at present, 57 Dems, 41 Repubs, 2 Inds. Of those seats, 23 Dems are up for re-election and 10 Repubs are up for re-election.

Just suppose every contested seat could be filled with an Ind. The Senate would then look like this: 35 Inds, 34 Repubs and 31 Dems. There might be a workable Senate. However, I don't see that happening anytime soon. Unless people are as thoroughly fed up with Senators as OWS people seem to be, we can expect about the same numbers as exist at present.

3) House: At present, 242 Repubs, 193 Dems. Unless there is some fancy footwork, what's gonna change? How can the Repubs be caused to lose over 24 seats?

##############################################

Looks like the rocket launcher is gonna fizzle unless the power of the Senate can be broken. And who's gonna put cash behind independents, and if no one does, what's really gonna change? And if Wall Street does, it's just more same ol same ol and still nothing changes. IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 08:12 AM

As long as the corporation have complete control of the language we use to discuss our dilemma and complete control of the media by which it distributes misinfomation voting will only give us SSDD...

Garbage in = garbage out...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 11:39 AM

Inds ain't worth much when it comes to getting things done. If the TEa Party can control the GOP nomination process to the point that Perry is too liberal when it comes to immigration an Cain is threatened because of hi "liberal waffling about abortion in cases of rape and incest, the pattern for taking over a party is pretty well established.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 01:33 PM

Senate: at present, 57 Dems, 41 Repubs, 2 Inds. Of those seats, 23 Dems are up for re-election and 10 Repubs are up for re-election. ~ GUEST,999

Actually, that would have been the count ia a past Congress after Scott Brown unexpectedly took the Kennedy Seat away, reducing the Democrat's 60-vote fillibuster-proof majority to 59.

Current count is 51 Democrat and 47 Republican, with Lieberman and Sanders ostensibly independents, but they meet, caucus and vote with the Democrats. They were both labled Senate Democrats at one time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 02:05 PM

Thanks for the correction, pdq. I was writing that early this morning and must have been looking at old data. From my perspective, it then makes things un-doable in the Senate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 02:45 PM

Just something to think about...

In 2006, with the House and Senate in Republican control, they (total for both houses) introduced 2759 pieces of legislation.

After the Democrats won the Trifecta of House, Senate and presidency in the 2008 election, Ried and Pelosi introduced 9071 pieces of legislation in 2009 including ObamaCare which had nearly 3000 pages in that one bill!

Yes millions of pages of legislation to micromanage every aspect of our lives.

No wonder the country went into apoplexy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 02:58 PM

"Micromanage?'

Trying to see that people who otherwise couldn't afford it can get decent medical care is hardly "micromanaging."

Wanting to cut Social Security and Medicare, especially when some very wealthy people are paying no taxes at all, and are, in fact, getting hefty bonuses for such things as unethical business practices and laying people off their jobs, on the other hand, most definitly IS.

Which might just have something to do with Occupy Wall Street.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 03:01 PM

Dick, I disagree. I think the key to a 'fairer' Senate would be a healthy number of Independents. At least enough to make the defeat of bad bills possible. I think neither Dems or Repubs should have the ability to get stuff through all by themselves. Imagine a Senate with a 40/40/20 split. Yes, it would slow things a bit, but that's not a bad idea. It would force bills to be debated and restructured. There has been altogether too much pushed through with 'attachments' or 'riders' that make for terrible precedent and even worse law. If I voted in your country, I would not vote for anyone aligned with either main party--hell, they were and are the parties that have brought the USA to the present state it's in. And it's ugly, despised and/or mistrusted around the world, hated (as it is) by millions of its own citizens.

I would hope independents would have the balls to tell lobbyists for Wall Street "You have five minutes of my time, and the clock starts now." It might begin to change a few things. But give people what they have had all along, however cleverly disguised, and your country will fall because Americans themselves will no longer 'believe' in their elected reps. OWS no longer do, and imo they are just the beginning of a real grassroots movement that will rock the foundations of your democracy. I think your founding fathers would be proud.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 03:57 PM

I hate to say it but if the OWS movement doesn't bust up Boss Hog's ballgame then the US is well on it's way to becoming a failed state...

1/2 of American families now live under $26,000 a year...

The government's "official" poverty threshold for a family of 4 is $22,400 a year...

This is a formula for not just a revolution but a violent one at that...

The righties think this a a big joke...

Yeah, haha...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 03:48 AM

I see the great unwashed have decided to block the path of those who wish to follow their faith. Tramps, send in the army and hose the bastards off the streets and stop their benefits.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2052650/MELANIE-PHILLIPS-Make-mistake-disillusionment-entire-political-class-blame-St-


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 06:03 AM

Surprise surprise - Melanie Philips of the Mail inventing crap about those getting more attention than her.

How sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 11:25 AM

The power of OWS is that it doesn't embrace a single soundbyte issue for the media.
It is powerful and will change the system and bring democracy back to America because
that's what Americans (overwhelming majority of them) want.

"Politicians hear our thunder. Get off the track or you'll fall under!"

People's Train, the Occupation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 01:24 PM

Just what do you mean by "change the system"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 01:43 PM

Well, for starters, it would be nice to get 60 million people above the poverty line, no?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 01:52 PM

$26000 a year would be plenty if gas were still 50 cents a gallon and bread was 30 cents a loaf.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 02:13 PM

No private money in elections.
Public financing.
Fixed amount, then that's it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 05:14 PM

The mentiion of campaign contributions brings up a matter that may merit a closer look.

When Sarah Palin leapt into national prominence as a Vice Presidential candidate, one of the first things she did with the campaign contributions was spend about $150,000 on a new wardrobe.

Then she gallivants all over the country, does television interviews, provides vast quantities of material for comedians like Tina Fay, and generally gets her ego stroked.

She quits her regular job (Governor of Alaska) to concentrate more on the presidential election, which leads to more campaign contributions (from people more bewildered than she is)—then she withdraws from the race!

None of the contributed money is going to where the contributors intended.

Isn't that what is generally known as a scam?

Just curious. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 05:46 PM

Would be for the "scam-ees" to complain, one would think- 'cept they're too goddamn stupid & they still love her. No facts need apply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 05:48 PM

Yeah, when you think about the cost of replacing a blown engine in a 15 year old Honda then 1/2 of American families are one blown engine away from poverty...

I agree with Strings... OWS will "change the system" because the system has become badly corrupted by the crooks...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 06:23 PM

Well since I'm here, 500.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 06:28 PM

500! I never had one before!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 06:36 PM

Oops.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 07:32 PM

You been "wronged", Richard...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 08:24 PM

Hmm. Occupy Wall Street was the brainchild of Adbusters, an anti-consumerist magazine based in Vancouver, British Columbia. Last July they declared that on September 17, 2011 they would begin the protest. Adbusters is partly financed by multi-billionaire George Soros' Tides Foundation.

Several labor unions are involved in the OWS protests. One of them is the Service Employees International Union (SEIU). Former SEIU official Stephen Lerner spoke last March about bringing down the stock market and destabilizing the nation... Read it for yourself.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/6808-former-union-official-exposes-plot-to-collapse-us-economy

OWS is far from spontaneous and leaderless and unorchestrated and all that. Soros. You don't get much more establishment than that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 08:39 PM

1. The article you posted mentions the word "soros" exactly 0 times.

2. The best you can find online to support your view is a few pieces talking about 'possible' 'indirect' links between soros and adbusters.

3. If anyone wants to try and put together a convincing argument that the movements in Greece, Egypt, Hong Kong etc were orchestrated by an anti capitalist publication in America, they are free to try, but they may find it hard.

4. The idea that a billionaire capitalist would encourage a Mass movement aimed specifically at reducing the power of billionaire capitalists is clearly nonsense anyway - typical right wing audacity, intended to bog the debate down in spurious bull****, masqueradiing as serious commentary.

The story of these 'links' is not worth any attention, nor the alleged 'implications' (which are what anyway?)

No story folks!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 08:41 PM

Hundreds of millions$$$$ from the Koch brothers, health insurance companies, FreedomWorks bought the Tea Party and own the deed... To date, $300,000 in donations to OWS...

Tell the truth, wrong-man...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 08:54 PM

The link was to a piece about Lerner, not about Soros.

There's a great new site called google, where you could type in, say, "Soros adbusters Tides" and learn all kinds of things. That's Google, with two Os.

Koch/Soros. Same beast. Right wing, left. Corral the conservatives with the Tea Party, corral the liberals with OWS. Don't let them off the reservation.

So, do I need to post my pictures again of Obama's party with the Silicon Valley moguls, where he thanked them for his new bloodless warfare system after Egypt? The CIA can now foment revolution almost anywhere it wants with psyops and Twitter. But fortunately the OWS people seem aware of this. CIA man Assange (of Wikileaks notoriety) received a lukewarm reception at one of the OWS events. The way the Twitter thing works is first Wikileaks releases some embarrassing "classified" stuff about the target government, then later Obama's CIA starts a "spontaneous uprising of youth" with Twitter.

Again, use that new Google thing to piece all this together.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM

No, soros and kochs are NOT the same beast... The Kochs are spending 100X more in elections than is soros... There ahs already been a link here on this thread that I think TIA (maybe it was someone else) that has the figures...

Just because you righties want to make soros a boogie man it isn't based on facts... It's mythology... In other words... It's a lie...

Check out reality, wrongster!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 09:15 PM

I detect the misappprehension that OWS likes Obama and the democrats.

This is a mistake.

OWS supports no political party.

It criticizes all political parties for being stooges of billionaires.

So post pictures of Obama in silicon Valley - thats exactly what OWS is attacking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 09:19 PM

And as for google,

did you not read this in my post ... the one you were 'responding' to ...

"2. The best you can find online to support your view is a few pieces talking about 'possible' 'indirect' links between soros and adbusters."

There's nothing of any substance, let alone significance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 09:21 PM

Well, as an OWSer, I come from a Green Party background... Okay, I did vote for Obama "hoping" he would step to the plate against the corportists... He hasn't... Is he better than anyone the Repubns have in the running??? Yeah, he is... Is he going to take on the systemic problems that corporate America has created??? No...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 09:22 PM

There's a great new site called google, where you could type in, say, "Soros adbusters Tides" and learn all kinds of things.

Hot Damn! I read it on the Internet so it MUST be true!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 09:27 PM

From an article about George Soros:

George Schwartz was born in Hungary in 1930 — not the luckiest time and place to be born a Jew.

George's father Theodore tried to change the family's fortunes by changing their name to something less Jewish-sounding. It didn't help. And soon war came.

When the Nazis took total control of Hungary in 1944, the Holocaust followed. In two months, 440,000 Hungarian Jews were deported to death camps.

To survive, George, then a teenager, collaborated with the Nazis.

First he worked for the Judenrat. That was the Jewish council set up by the Nazis to do their dirty work for them. Instead of the Nazis rounding up Jews every day for the trains, they delegated that murderous task to Jews who were willing to do it to survive another day at the expense of their neighbours.

Theodore hatched a better plan for his son. He bribed a non-Jewish official at the agriculture ministry to let George live with him. George helped the official confiscate property from Jews.

By collaborating with the Nazis, George survived the Holocaust. He turned on other Jews to spare himself.

George moved to London after the war and then to New York, where he became a stockbroker. He's rich now. Forbes magazine says he's the 35th richest man in the world. Maybe you've heard of him. He goes by the name his father invented: George Soros.

How does Soros feel about what he did as a teenager? Has it kept him up at night?

Steve Kroft of 60 Minutes asked him that. Was it difficult? "Not at all," Soros answered.

"No feeling of guilt?" asked Kroft. "No," said Soros. "There was no sense that I shouldn't be there. If I wasn't doing it, somebody else would be taking it away anyhow. Whether I was there or not. So I had no sense of guilt."

A Nazi would steal the Jews' property anyways. So why not him?

That moral hollowness has shaped Soros' life. He's a rabid critic of capitalism, but in 1992 when he saw a chance, he speculated against the British pound, causing it to crash, devastating retirement savings for millions of Britons. Soros pocketed $1.1 billion for himself. If he didn't do it, someone else would, right?

http://itmakessenseblog.com/2011/01/28/george-soros-says-he-feels-no-remorse-for-collaborating-with-nazis-during-wwii-to-send-hi

I don't like the Koch bros, but I don't like Soros either. Right now he's trying to destory the European Union. Millions will die if he succeeds.

See...this is what OWS is supposed to be about. Soros has to be brought down with the Koch's, right? If that can't be accepted, then OWS is indeed partisan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 09:30 PM

You got it, Greg... The right wing has hundreds of paid blogger son their payrolls and their only job is to fuck with people by speading as many lies and propaganda as possible over the internet... But the right wing is also the corporations (not who) that have the BIG $$$ to spend on this kinda stuff... The left doesn't have the BIG $$$...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 09:48 PM

Those of you who support OWS and who do not know about the tactics used by the Sioux to win the battle at the Little Big Horn better check some reliable sources and read up on it, because the same thing is happening to you here, imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 10:12 PM

Good analogy, brucie... Yeah, I get the heck outta what you are saying...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:04 AM

From an article about George Soros:

CORRECTION: From a hodge-podge of unsubstantiated rants posted on a right-wing blog hosted by a site dedicated to "Make[ing] us Better Informed to Counteract the Radical Revolution".

Gimmie shelter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 01:06 PM

Songwronger,

I thought you were trying to prove the link between Soros and OWS?

Your "article" doesn't mention adbusters once, let alone OWS.


You say:

"Soros has to be brought down with the Koch's, right? If that can't be accepted, then OWS is indeed partisan. "

You seem to have ignored my answer before that OWS does not favour Soros but has a problem with corporatocracy (government by corporations) taking over from democracy (government by people).


OWS doesn't care if the corporatocracy is run by Soros, the Kochs or Ronald McDonald - they are against corporatocracy and pro democracy.

Got it yet?


Besides which, as has been noted, the "artcle" you referred to isn't an article, it is an opinion on an ultra right wing blog withh no facts to back it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 01:17 PM

Come on, Lox... Don't be that way... The right loves George Soros... He is their favorite boogie man... The reality that the Kochs outspend him 100 to 1 doesn't matter to them... He's all they have now that they used lies to strip Acorn... If Soros died tomorrow the right would go into a deep, deep depression...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 01:36 PM

We were down at Occupy Atlanta on Monday singing peace, justice and labor songs.
No amplification, just two of us and the traditional Pete Seeger style banjo.

We had some impact. It's so important for unamplified singers to go down to your Occupy and support the people there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 01:45 PM

I been playing drums at the rallies... Hey, it's acoustic but good and noisy...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 01:53 PM

Occupy Atlanta


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 02:07 PM

"How come black folks aren't part of OWS?" is the latest crap to come out of the right..

So much for that MythTeology... This link alone shoots down that BIG LIE in flames...

Thanks for your link, Strings...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 02:23 PM

Songwronger's faith in the veracity of what he finds on Google is quite touching, but by searching Google, one can ALSO find "proof" for the notion that the earth is hollow and that we are ruled by a race of reptilians who evolved into super-intelligent beings from dinosaurs that survived the effects of the meteor impact 65,000,000 years ago by taking refuge in giant caverns and who now control us without our knowledge.

Web sites on Google are sort of like verses in the Bible. A critical survey shows that they are varied and sufficiently contradictory that one can "prove" anything by carefully selecting the sites/verses that support one's position.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 02:50 PM

Songwronger is out to lunch on this issue. Fagettabowtit.

Good for you, Stringsinger. You are right that the OWS people need support and encouragement. Old adage in the military: it takes nine soldiers to keep one in the field.

IMO, the best way to deal with the chain-yankers is to

1) briefly refute them (they ain't gonna read what we write anyway)

2) and then ignore them

Dammit, we are right in supporting OWS. Those who don't are

1) wrong

2) not informed

We still live in a world that watches reruns of the integration movement and wonders what they did wrong that allowed good laws to pass. Sheesh.

The crap about Soros and Nazis: I got ten bucks that says most people would have played ball. Either that or Auschwitz.

I read the 'article' and visited the site. I left a message on the site that likely won't be printed. (Misspelled congress as congree.)

Anyway, if that's where this guy is getting his info from, it's no wonder to me that the elevator is only going up a floor and a half.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 04:25 PM

George Soros, born in 1930, was less than ten years old when Hitler started invading other countries. He was fifteen when WWII came to an end. He was born in Budapest, Hungary into a Jewish family. He emigrated to England in 1947—at the age of seventeen.

Tell me once again, Songwronger, about how he was Hitler's right-hand man in engineering the Holocaust.

Indeed, in his early teens, he had a job as a gofer for the "Jewish Council." He was to deliver slips of paper to various Jews in the city, telling them to report to a particular location at 9:00 a.m. He showed the slips to his father, who recognized them, and told young Gyorgy to tell the people he delivered the slips to that if they DID report to the appointed place at the appointed time, they would be "deported." And that they had best make themselves very scarce!!

I had a friend (gone now) who was a Hungarian Jew. He told me that when he was eight years old, his family had received such a warning, and escaped that night and made their way circuitously to the United States. He had friends whose families were rounded up and sent to the gas chambers.

Bulletin, Songwronger! George Soros WAS, and IS, one of the GOOD GUYS!

Learn to live with it!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 04:41 PM

Yeah, George Soros supports pro-human causes while the Koch brothers buy political power that allows them to poison our water and pollute our air...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 06:15 PM

Protestors were cleared from a park adjoining City Hall in Oakland, CA.

The Huffington Post reports an Associated Press story that 37% of Americans support the protesters, but a Gallup poll indicates the majority of Americans don't know what the protests are about.

The guy talking in the video on the Atlanta link is as loopy in one direction as Michelle Bachman is in the other.

By New Years Day, I think the foofaraw will be over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 07:17 PM

Oh geeze... More polls... I've heard 3 (mow 4) different ones... One poll that was on NBC last night had approval of OWS in th4e high 50s...

Polls smolls...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 08:32 PM

I do not trust Soros.

It is true that he has speculated against the pound and also that he was locked in a speculation battle with the sultan of brunei who used his own fortune to prevent soros from damaging the economies of the asia pacific region for personal gain.

I remember reading about it at the time.

But this is a big red herring - OWS doesn't need Soros and I'm surprised anyone feels the need to stick up for him.

He is the 1% and is happy for the status quo to remain as it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 08:36 PM

I don't really give a rat's ass about George Soros... The thing is that he has become this symbol of the right that no matter what they do that is downright mean and stupid that they can't possibly as bad as Soros... I'd just like to see the right wing stand up on their policies without having to use made-up boogiemen on the left...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:11 PM

Lox, Soros is, by no means, pure and lily-white. He came by his fortune by the usual Wall Street-style wheeling and dealing, and was once charged with insider trading, but he, like a number of billionaires—a small number, but there, nevertheless—is among those who are trying to redeem themselves by using their great wealth to do some good in the world.

Two who occur to me off the top of my head (and a litte digging will turn up a number of others) are Bill Gates, who has given away something like $32 billion dollars so far, through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and Ted Turner, who has given away a third of his fortune so far. When criticized by his fellow billionaires for his philanthropy (e.g., setting a good example for other billionaires), Turner responded, "For #$%&!@#!, who NEEDS that much money!??"

I was responding to Songwronger's hysterical slanders about Soros' alleged activities aiding Hitler in sending his fellow Jews to the slave labor camps and gas chambers. A little simple arithmetic would have shown him how ridiculous that charge is. Wotthehell!! Soros was barely into his teens at the time! Whoever Songwronger got that from is little more than a wad of hate and lies.

Let's take an occasional bow toward the Real World and give some credit where credit is due!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:15 PM

Such a mishmash of idologies and terminologies.

Does anyone here know what a democracy is? America has a constitutional republic, not a democracy. Democracy is rule by 51%. And consensus is defined as "Agreement in the judgment or opinion reached by a group as a whole."

See, that's how you know that OWS is intended to fail. Everyone involved with the program talks about reaching "consensus," but they can't even agree on what they're protesting. It has something to do with Wall Street, because that's in the name, but then there's the environment and a hundred other issues. No "consensus" will ever be reached on anything. And it's meant to be that way. The intention of the organizers is to bleed off the political fervor of the protestors so that they are no longer a menace. That "consensus" talk on day one was the first red flag for me.

OWS needs to focus on 3-4 items and distribute those nationwide. Tax financial transactions, reinstate Glass-Steagall, maybe nationalize the Federal Reserve. And trials. Lots of trials.

Soros. He's part of the 1% and his crimes are many. Why flog that horse?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:21 PM

YOU are the one flogging that particular horse, Songwronger.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:22 PM

At this point the only people saying OWS has to focus are those who are NOT with OWS. We got no problem with the so-called lack of focus. Why do people who--if they wanted to help would--keep saying 'focus'? We're focused already, although maybe not on the things YOU find of import.

Your fairly prescriptive 3-4 items leaves out one helluva lotta stuff that has to be corrected/rectified/recompensed. imo


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:24 PM

I'm starting to think like Don. Not a bad thing, but scary. lol

Cross-posted with you, buddy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:36 PM

Don-thinking is good, brucie...

Songwronger, like his or her handle suggests, is bad...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:49 PM

Constitutional Democracy. Even the Greeks were aware that pure democracy can quickly become tyrannical. A very good example of PURE democracy is a lynch mob. Hence, the Constitution, which not only limits the power of government, but protects the individual from the tyranny of the mob.

I have recommended this book a number of times:   First Democracy: The Challenge of an Ancient Idea, by Paul Woodruff. Despite its flaws (which many Greeks were aware of at the time), Greek democracy worked quite well; in many ways, better than ours. The final chapter in Woodruff's book bears the title, "Is America Ready for Democracy?"

You see, Songwronger, I stayed awake in my high school civics classes and kept observing and learning since then. Yes, I know what Democracy should be, and how and WHY it so frequently falls short.

As far as focus is concerned, OWS is way ahead of you.

Don Firth

P. S. Over and out. Got a busy evening ahead of me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 10:05 PM

Don,

You describe Soros in a way that is comparable to a benevolent dictator.

OWS has no beef with the individual, but is without any shadow of a doubt 100% opposed to the existence of any kind of dictatorship.

The very fact of his complicity in the current status quo, whether he is a benevolent or malign influence, makes him part of the 1%.

He isn't on our side until he limits his own salary, ensures all his employees have a fair wage, health insurance etc, and until he works to ensure that his profits are made without unnecessary damage to the environment, war etc.

There are no billionaires on our team - this is a permanent struggle between the interests of billionaires and the interests of the rest of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 10:26 PM

The media first said that Occupy Wall Street was violent, but that didn't fly. So they said it was unsanitary, but that also proved to be a lie. Then they said it was rife with anti-Semitism and focused on an obvious plant plus a couple of LaRouche followers to prove their point, but that went nowhere. Next they claimed it was just a bunch of spoiled trust fund kids acting in concert with some union goons, but that was simply laughable. Now they are so desperate they are saying that OWS is too noisy and that drum circles will spell its doom. And at the same time they are saying that it's being controlled behind the scenes by (1) Barack Obama, (2) George Soros, (3) the Muslim Brotherhood, or (4) the teachers unions. Take your pick or add your own.

To which I respond: Bull-fuckin'-shit! Even if the OWS encampment were to end this instant, there is no going back. The movement that it has inspired is here too stay. Get used to it!

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 10:44 PM

Hear, hear, Steve! BINGO.

Lox, damned good post.



"We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately." B Franklin


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 11:19 PM

Songwronger-
What is your personal knowledge of OWS? Have you been out here talking to any of us? (I spent the day in Pittsburgh in the shadow of the US Steel Tower).
No, of course you have not. Your characterization is straight out of the Lamestream Faux News Right Wing False Outrage Echo Chamber.
Come talk to us when you have your own knowledge and opinions.
Buh-Bye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 11:22 PM

Getting there and back, I talked to a flight attendant, a taxi driver, a policewoman, A Dunkin donuts server a civil engineer and a college kid who all understood the focus. Seems like it might be your problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 11:31 PM

Bobert-
You got drumming elbow yet?
Keep it up, but keep it healthy.
TIA


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 12:26 AM

Focus. That's good. You'd better get focused, Tia, because your capital city just filed for bankruptcy.

I'm glad to see that most OWS people are aware of the fake left/right stuff. The battle has ALWAYS been between the 1% and the 99%, not 50% vs 50%. They won't be able to pit us against one another much longer.

FDR had the answer, largely, but then the modern presidents began tearing down what he put in place.

Let's see...my most interesting discussion today was with a stockboy who told me all about Al Gore's energy-guzzling house in Tennessee. I would have argued with him, but I couldn't. I handed out some printouts about local votes coming up, and some printouts about the recent Saudi diplomat charade (the Obama administration is trying to build it up into a war with Iran, but no one's buying it)...the usual stuff. Handed out a pocket constitution, a couple of bumper stickers (Support the Troops, Bring them Home NOW). Typical day. Political activism is a way of life around here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 12:46 AM

With all due respect, Lox, I believe you are reading more into what I wrote than I intended.

My beef was with the totally wrong and basically slanderous ideas that Songwronger was trying to peddle about both Soros and his supposed control of OWS. I never said that Soros could heal the sick, raise the dead, and walk on water. What SW said was sheer Right Wing propaganda. Soros is in hot water with the Right Wing because Soros—like Warren Buffet—reacted positively to OWS, rather than condemning it outright like the rest of those in that lofty wealth bracket.

"There are no billionaires on our team." Why, then, have Soros and Buffet made favorable comments about OWS? I don't know that they haven't offered financial support, but it they haven't, it is more than likely that they are aware that this, per se, would cast a cloud over the "grass roots" aspect of OWS and subject it to the same kind of criticism that has been levied at the Tea Party because of the involvement of the Koch Brothers. The Right Wing would leap on something like that with glee. In fact, they have already been making unsubstantiated claims along that line.

And who said anything about Soros being a "dictator" to anything, ESPECIALLY OWS?

Before ripping into Soros and ALL other wealthy people with unsubstantiated charges based on pigeon-hole type assumptions about the wealthy, you might want to read up a bit on people like Soros and Buffet from unbiased sources.

Among other things, you might want to find out why Fox News hates Soros so much.

Don Firth

P. S. To Songwronger.

" FDR had the answer, largely, but then the modern presidents began tearing down what he put in place."

Yes, FDR did have the answer. But the presidents who began tearing down what FDR put in place was,first, Ronald Reagan. And then, every REPUBLICAN president since then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 05:36 AM

"And who said anything about Soros being a "dictator" to anything, ESPECIALLY OWS?"

Don,

You are totally missing the point.


We live in a corporatocracy - i.e. a system where billionaires and corporations have more political clout than ordinary people because they can buy it.

OWS thinks we should be living in a democracy - i.e. a system where all people have equal political clout, regardless of whether they have money or not.

Soros, may be a saint, but that does not change the fact that he has wildly disproportionate political influence.

It is the imbalance in political enfranchisement and in wealth that is under scrutiny, not whether Soros is a nice guy.

As nice or as mean as he might be, he cannot be on 'our side' - his existence as an example of the divide between the super rich and ordinary people is a matter of concern.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 07:30 AM

Occupy Atlanta was broken up last night by the police. The arrests were peaceful. The mayor was quoted as saying that an AK-47 was spoted in the crowd earlier in the day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 07:51 AM

Yeas Songwronger, Harrisburg is going under financially. Are you "focussed" enought to know why, or just being snarky? Find out why, and you will see more of what OWS is about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 09:11 AM

Yeah, I find it interesting that so many of the OWS opponents haven't actually been to any of them???

No drummer's elbow, TIA, but "drummer's back"??? Different story... Don't think I'll be drumming this coming Saturday...

B;~(


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 11:19 AM

"The mayor was quoted as saying that an AK-47 was spoted in the crowd earlier in the day."

Well, that should garner support from the Tea Party then. Wasn't it they who carried firearms at some of their 1% rallies a while back?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 11:59 AM

Well, that should garner support from the Tea Party then.

Nah, to get the Tea Potty endorsement, they'd actually have to SHOOT some miserable revolutionary socialist liberal godless commie like Gabrielle Giffords.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 12:26 PM

Who makes millionaires millionaires?. Perhaps we should ask them to stop it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 01:48 PM

No, Lox, I'm not missing the point at all.

"As nice or as mean as he might be, he cannot be on 'our side' - his existence as an example of the divide between the super rich and ordinary people is a matter of concern."

I don't accept that. That's prejudicial thinking.

I've lived long enough to see peoples' viewpoints and values change as their circumstances change and they grow older, and sometimes, wiser. As, indeed, mine have changed and grown in the light of new knowledge and new insights. There are numerous stories of wealthy people who were hard-charging and often quite unethical when they are young, but as they grew older, their ideas—and there moral principles—altered.

History is full of examples. Without writing a whole treatise on the subject, look at the life of Andrew Carnegie, founder of U. S. Steel. Early on, he was as much a "robber baron" as many during his era—but in later life he turned his attention to philanthropy. In fact, he wrote books on the subject and urged his wealthy compatriots to turn their vast wealth into "doing real and permanent good in the world." Among his many philanthropic acts, he started a nationwide public library system. He also said, "He who dies rich dies in disgrace." In s