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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: richardw Date: 26 Oct 00 - 01:23 PM Thanks elf. Sorcha. Where might I find Going Bacl to Millto(w)n? Thanks Richard Wright |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: richardw Date: 26 Oct 00 - 12:43 PM duplicate post deleted by elf |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: richardw Date: 26 Oct 00 - 12:41 PM This post is a bit long, but--- It is interesting that this Old Paint or Hoolihan thread seems to reappear so often. Hooly-ann (note the spelling) refers to a rope throw, not a rope. This is, as a couple of folks have mentioned, a head catch, used in a corral. "The roper carries the loop in his hand, and when the chance presents itself, he swings one quick whirl around in front of him toward the right and up over his head and releases the loop and rope in the direction of the target. As it comes over, it is turned in a way to flatten out before it reaches the head of the animal. It land straight down and so has a fair-sized opening." Others refs in this book point out that twirling the rope over the head would excite the horses and be difficult when a whole gang of cowboys are trying to catch horses in the morning. Hooligan wagon is used on short cattle drives for wood and water. Fay E. Ward, an old cowby who wrote The Cowboy At Work, calls this a hoolum wagon. He seems to be referring to a second two-wheel wagon that was sometimes trailered behind the chuck wagon. Hoolihan is a cowboy term for foul or dirty play. Hoolihaning is similar to bull dogging but knocks the steer down rather than wrestling. BUT, it is also used to refer to throwing a big time in town—to paint the town red. This comes from Ramon Adams, Cowboy Dictionary, Norman Univ Okalahoma Press, 1968. Seems clear that they are going to Montana and will then have a party at the end of the trail drive. Facinating that the word seems to come from Ireland via India. I'm finding there are a lot of connections in the horse culture that are like that. Snuffy is "a cowboy's term for a wild or spirited horse." Ramon Adams, Cowboy dictionary, Norman Univ Okalahoma Press. My humble opinion is that firey and snuffy are definite referring to the horses, like the ones I was trying to hoof-trim yesterday who kept running around snorting and farting while we worked. Re: the comments of dallying. The "Texas tie" was to tie the rope hard and fast to the saddle horn. A practioner of this was called a "tie-hard" or tie-hard-and-fast-man." It is not common in the north where dallys are wrapped (sometimes with a thumb in the loop like a thumbless neighbour of mine.) The above and a slightly different description of the rope toss is found in The Cowboy Encyclopedia by Richard W. Slatta. Lomax says that a lot of folks sing one line wrong as Woody Guthrie got the words mixed and sang "their backs are all matted and tails are all raw." He alos points out that some folks sing "two daughters and a son," rather than the correct word "song." This is on our next CD, "Halters and Hackamores" so the discussion is certainly interesting. If it helps for credibity my son is working wrangler. Richard Wright
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: Mikey joe Date: 26 Oct 00 - 07:13 AM Another possibility is the fact that Houlihan is a very common Irish surname. Maybe poor old Mr Houlihan ended up in a ditch or hole somewhere?!?! |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Oct 00 - 01:25 AM Aine, I think I agree with you, as I have discovered that a LOT of "Cowboy" and Western songs have deep roots into Irish culture. Tunes, esp. My computer is acting up and I might have 2 minutes, before a 30 min reboot, but several songs/tunes come to mind. One that comes to mind is "When The Work's All Done Next Fall" is exactly the same melody as "Goin Back to Mill(t?)own". Both talk about seeing mother next fall, also. |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: ddw Date: 26 Oct 00 - 01:08 AM Ely, It wasn't the horses getting the saddle sores — it was the cowboys. The reference to the horses' backs being raw was to the area between the saddle and the withers (front shoulders) that were sometimes rubbed raw by the rope that tethered a roped cow to the saddle horn. I ride an old Paint, I lead an old Dan. I'm off the Montana for to throw the hoolihan. They feed in the coulees,they water in the draw; Their tails are all matted, their backs are all raw. I don't see any reference at all in the verse to cows and it's the first verse of the song. Take out the second line — which describes what the rider is doing and says nothing about the animals — and it's still back to horses. david |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: Ely Date: 25 Oct 00 - 11:51 PM I was just wondering--it comes right after a cow verse. I've also heard the two sung as one verse, so I guess I'm not the only one who's been confused. I was rather disappointed in the cowboys for letting their horses get saddle sores, though. |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: ddw Date: 25 Oct 00 - 11:08 PM The definition I've always heard for "hoolihan" (regardless of the spelling) jibes with the ones early in the thread — that it's a style of roping. As for going to Montana to do it, was it a technique used regionally? I know cowboys from different areas used different techniques (note the argument-song Windy Bill, which is based on how the cowboy takes his dallies (i.e. loops of the rope around the saddle horn). In the Texas style the loops are tight and the horse stops very quickly, yanking the cow off her feet. The California style uses looser loops and slows the cow more slowly. Ely, I don't think there is any question that the lines you're wondering about refer to the Old Paint he rides and the Old Dan he leads. There's narry a mention of cows in that verse. cheers, david |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: Áine Date: 25 Oct 00 - 10:58 PM OK guys, the Stars are getting their collective booties kicked by the Canucks, and I just can't stand to look anymore...Geez, they've even pulled Belfour out of the net and put in the rookie goalie who has two whole NHL games under his jersey... So, here's my theory: When I started reading this thread and got an idea of what the song might be about (and after checking out the previous thread mentioned by Brakn), something clicked in my head. I remembered a phrase that my grandmother (the daughter of an Irish-speaking woman from County Derry) used to use often to say that she'd been completely confused, "Well, that threw me into a hoolah hallah!" So, knowing how the sound of the letter 'u' tends to become elongated as it moves west in the States, I broke out my Irish dictionary, and what do I find? Three different phrases used to describe a "confusion, commotion, uproar, noise of the chase". In Irish, the phrases are spelled holam halam, hulm halm, and hulach halach. Say 'em fast enough, and you can hear where "houlihan" might have developed as a pronunciation. Now, let's assume that the "houlihan" in the song is indeed a particular roping technique. To "throw a confusion" onto/into to someone or something would be a very appropriate phrase in Irish to say that you tricked someone/something, or overcame them in a devious fashion. Exactly what a cowboy would be wanting to do to the cattle that needed to be roped. And I agree that the phrase "fiery and snuffy" is describing their mood as being restless and ready for the trail after being penned up. If you've ever been around cattle, you'd instantly recognize that 'snuffy' noise and stay out their way. And I'm betting that 'fiery' is referring to the way that cattle roll their eyes around when they're upset, showing the red veins in the muscles of their eye sockets. Well, there ya go. Like I said, it's just my theory; but, I thought it'd be fun to throw it in the water and see if it floats! ;-) -- Áine
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: Sorcha Date: 25 Oct 00 - 09:44 PM We'll see what Aine has to say, but I always figured that "snuffy" referred to the snort/snuffle cattle make when they are just milling around, so firey and snuffy would mean ready to hit the trail, or stampede especially if the "dogies" (motherless calves) were restless and upset. Unhappy babies tend to make unhappy grown ups. Keep the babies quiet, and you keep everybody else quiet. |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: Metchosin Date: 25 Oct 00 - 09:23 PM Ely I always thought it referred to the cattle, but now that you pointed it out, it also makes just as much sense as a reference to the horses. |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: Ely Date: 25 Oct 00 - 09:02 PM They do throw cattle--they "throw" them on their sides to brand them--so it would make sense. They way I learned it, the verse after it was something about "they feed in the coolies, they water in the draw, their tails are all matted, their backs are all raw." I was never sure if it meant the cattle (which would make sense with "houlihan") or the horses in the remuda (possibly they were saddle-sore?). |
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Subject: Lyr Add: I RIDE AN OLD PAINT^^^ From: Gary T Date: 25 Oct 00 - 09:02 PM Here are the lyrics from Cowpie: I ride an old Paint, I lead an old Dan. I'm off the Mantan' for to throw the hoolihan. They feed in the coulees,they water in the draw; Their tails are all matted, their backs are all raw. Chorus: Ride a- round, little dogies, ride a-round slow, For the fiery and snuffy are a-rarin' to go. Old bill Jones had two daughters and a song; One went to Denver,& the other went wrong. His wife, she died in a poolroom fight, And he sings this song from morning till night. Oh, when I die, take my saddle from the wall, Put it on my pony and lead him from the stall. Tie my bones to his back,turn our faces to the west, And we'll ride the prairies we love the best.^^^ ___________________________________________________ "I'm off the Mantan'" sounds nonsensical, I would have to say that's a misheard "I'm off to Montan'/Montana". In the DT version, it has "...they're fiery and snuffy..." as mentioned by McGrath. However, there's also a note at the bottom indicating that some versions have the line "...the fiery and snuffy...", as mentioned by Metchosin and found on Cowpie. In either case, whether those words are adjectives or nouns derived from adjectives, it would sure be nice to know what "snuffy" means. In some previous threads it was mentioned that one meaning of "hoolihan" was a melee of sorts. That would make sense if the lyrics were "..join the hoolihan..." or some such. Another meaning was a method of wrestling an animal down. That would make sense if the song said "...do the hoolihan..." or something similar. But "...throw the hoolihan..." really only makes sense to me if the hoolihan in question is a rope technique, as explained by Vince and Sorcha. |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: kendall Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:56 PM I once worked for an old guy who "rode the rods" in his youth, and he said that to throw the houlahan meant to get blind drunk and dance wildly. |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: Áine Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:22 PM Thanks to you both ;-) I'll be back with my pontification on this here matter after supper and the hockey game (Go Stars!). Even if it's just a bunch of bollocks, it'll be fun to see what y'all think of it! Later dudes and dudettes, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: GUEST,mousethief (at the library) Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:12 PM Ha ha, Sorcha! Beatcha to it! :-)
Alex O..O |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: Sorcha Date: 25 Oct 00 - 07:58 PM Aine, click here. |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: GUEST,mousethief (at the library) Date: 25 Oct 00 - 07:57 PM Aine, it's in the DT: I RIDE AN OLD PAINT
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: Áine Date: 25 Oct 00 - 07:42 PM Would someone be so kind as to post the whole set of lyrics to the song in question? I have a theory about this expression; but, I need to see the whole song and the context in which 'houlihan' is used. Thanks beaucoups in advance, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: Metchosin Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:30 PM jeez talk about Mondegreens, I always thought the line was "the fire and the snuffy are ready to go" and referred to the branding iron. |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:38 PM Taking up a point from that other thread, I've always assumed that the line in that sonmg, "They're firy and snuffy and ready to go" means that the cattle are edgy, and liable to stampede if anything noisy happens, so you ride around them slow and easy, and hope they find the sound of the song soothing.
I've never been a cowboy, but I do know that cows like singing and music. I remember standing by a roadside next to a field hitchhiking with a guitar, and there weren't any lifts, so I started playing, and the cows in the field came over to that end of the field and stood around listening. Tolerant creatures, because I don't think it could have sounded too good. |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: mousethief Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:35 PM In one of the songbooks I have at home, it says a "houlihan" is a cow, and the "throw the houlihan" is an unfortunate lyric in that it's meaningless. Maybe they just got the word wrong?
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: Jimmy C Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:31 PM The word houlihan or (Hula Hand) as in Vince's answer above probably does refer to throwing a rope. Throughout the years it's meaning may have become mixed up with the Irish slang "Hooley" meaning party. The origin of "Hooley" was brought back to Ireland from India by Irishmen serving in the British Army there and derives from the Hindustani word "HOOLIE" which is a Hindu festival. I often wondered about it's true meaning myself. Thanks Vince.
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: Sorcha Date: 25 Oct 00 - 03:15 PM I checked out the other thread, and my dad said that hoolihan was indeed a way to throw a rope. Rather than coming down from the top and falling over the critters head, a hoolihan is a way to throw a loop so that it comes up from under the head. Used primarily on horses, but also "spooky" cows. I would guess that hoolihan and hooly-ann are dialect variations of the same word. |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: GUEST,Vince Date: 25 Oct 00 - 02:14 PM In 1942, at Camp Barkeley Tx,old regular army Sgt, former West Tx cowhand, told me that the correct words (the raat words)were"thraw the Hula Hand"..referred to throwing the twirling loop of the lasso . Old cow-hand slang was just as complex as Cockney slang is today |
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? From: Brakn Date: 29 Sep 99 - 03:33 AM Check this previous thread. Click here Mick Bracken |
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Subject: houlihan? (Old Paint) From: Ken Date: 29 Sep 99 - 03:18 AM Can somebody please enlighten me as to the meaning of the word houlihan as used in "I ride an old paint". What is it? How and why do you throw it? why must you go to Montana to do it? This has puzzled me since I first learned the song but can find no reference to it anywhere else. |
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