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Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?

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DMcG 10 Oct 11 - 06:37 PM
olddude 10 Oct 11 - 07:09 PM
olddude 10 Oct 11 - 07:11 PM
GUEST,Buddhuu sans cookie 11 Oct 11 - 09:02 AM
Bonzo3legs 11 Oct 11 - 09:06 AM
Lighter 11 Oct 11 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 11 Oct 11 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,999 11 Oct 11 - 11:17 AM
dick greenhaus 11 Oct 11 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,josepp 11 Oct 11 - 12:24 PM
olddude 11 Oct 11 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,AlanG at work 11 Oct 11 - 12:50 PM
olddude 11 Oct 11 - 12:53 PM
Morris-ey 11 Oct 11 - 01:24 PM
GUEST,mg 11 Oct 11 - 02:12 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Oct 11 - 03:17 PM
BTNG 11 Oct 11 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,matt milton 11 Oct 11 - 03:48 PM
greg stephens 11 Oct 11 - 04:00 PM
Jeri 11 Oct 11 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,josepp 11 Oct 11 - 08:55 PM
GUEST,Jim 11 Oct 11 - 09:23 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 12 Oct 11 - 05:13 AM
Brian Peters 12 Oct 11 - 05:28 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Oct 11 - 05:39 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Oct 11 - 07:08 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Oct 11 - 07:11 AM
Lighter 12 Oct 11 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 12 Oct 11 - 07:31 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 12 Oct 11 - 07:31 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Oct 11 - 07:45 AM
GUEST 12 Oct 11 - 08:38 AM
johncharles 12 Oct 11 - 08:54 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Oct 11 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,matt m 12 Oct 11 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 12 Oct 11 - 11:02 AM
GUEST,josepp 12 Oct 11 - 12:22 PM
Morris-ey 12 Oct 11 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 12 Oct 11 - 04:21 PM
GUEST 12 Oct 11 - 07:27 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 13 Oct 11 - 12:00 AM
GUEST,Guest-AVFS 13 Oct 11 - 01:01 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Oct 11 - 02:59 AM
GUEST,matt milton 13 Oct 11 - 04:40 AM
Phil Edwards 13 Oct 11 - 04:57 AM
Nigel Parsons 13 Oct 11 - 05:36 AM
GUEST,matt milton 13 Oct 11 - 06:42 AM
Bonzo3legs 13 Oct 11 - 06:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 06:37 PM

bringing any commonsense to the matter, they were ALL Jews [in the Bitter Withy], weren't they?

Well, even it were a historical account, which of course it isn't: not necessarily.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: olddude
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 07:09 PM

They are part of history, if someone wants to play them go ahead. But for me, I don't have to listen as I think they should remain part of history myself ... I however, have no objections to anyone .. just please don't be offended if i leave while it is being played. I just would not wish to learn or play any.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: olddude
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 07:11 PM

Some of the most hate filled racist songs ever recorded are being played on the radio as gangsta rap.   I don't listen to that either. However, I don't tell them they can't play it ... I just don't need to listen to it.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Buddhuu sans cookie
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:02 AM

Short answer: no. Not ok. There are plenty of other songs to sing.

Longer answer: can depend on motive and context as well as content. Songs using racist language in the course of mocking/satirising/ridiculing racism can be powerful. I would consider singing such songs - cautiously.

I can't imagine ever singing a song with racist content for any reason without making my position on the matter very clear before doing the song.

Possibly singing something traditional but nasty to illustrate conditions and attitudes of the past. That could work, but would need careful handling.

To sing racist songs for amusement, or to pander to a racist audience, is in no measure excused by saying "but they're traditional songs".

I would also do the word-change thing if it seemed appropriate. In that case I may well tell the audience about the change and my reason for making it.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:06 AM

Oh for heavens sake, a song is a song is a song. People with nothing else better to do getting offended on behalf of others.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:13 AM

> "However, I don't tell them they can't play it."

Why not, exactly?

Unless you own a radio station or something, maybe "shouldn't" is a better word than "can't." But racists have a right to know the rest of us disapprove.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 11:11 AM

I `ad "oldude" off that MudCat in my cab the other day. `e wanted to go to the Social Sec.office.
I said, "Morning O.D. I read your bit on that MUDCAT the other day about songs with offensive and racist contents and I reckon you`re spot on."
`e said, "Well thanks Jim, but what are we gonna do about it?"
I said, "It`s easy. All we gotta do is `ave something like we `ave on our telly. We gotta get a law passed that requires all public performances MUST display a big notice outside that says "WARNING. This public performance may contain material referring to..blah...blah...blah." Then there`s no excuse for people being offended"

Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 11:17 AM

I think material of a racist sort should be tested properly. Suppose you have a racist song that denigrates Jews, for example. Would you sing that song to a Jewish audience in Tel Aviv? Suppose it denigrate Blacks. Would you sing that song to a Black audience in Harlem? Ditto various other peoples, cultures, etc. If you wouldn't, then you've answered your own question, traditional or not.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 11:26 AM

Times, mores and attitudes change with time. If you're looking for modern sensibilities, maybe you should restrict yourself to modern
music.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 12:24 PM

I sing "Where Did You Sleep Last Night" as "Black Girl" which sometimes gets me stares when I'm busking but i don't see it as that bad. I will not perform Peg Leg Howell's "Skin Game" which sounds to me to have a lyric that goes, "They handcuffed the niggers to me, lovin' babe, they handcuffed the niggers to me." I'm just not going to sing anything like that.

Ewan MacColl and A.L. Lloyd do a sea song that contains the lyric, "And who do you think was the skipper of her, Row Boys Row, Why Bully Hayes the nigger-lover, Row Me Bully Boys Row." Recording it is one thing but singing in front of people--no.

I heard an old cylinder with a song about "Mr. Jappy Jap Jappy" who filled in the gappy gap gappy in the west of the mappy map mappy. Again, I don't consider this terribly racist--it's not meant as an attack on Japanese people--but I sure wouldn't sing it in public.

Zip Coon I wouldn't sing but to play it as "Turkey in the Straw" is perfectly fine by me.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: olddude
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 12:40 PM

On the news not long ago, they talked about this company that edited Mark Twain's Huck Finn to make it more politically correct. I think history is history and one should not try to rewrite it either in books or in song. Like I said I just don't want to listen to those songs but I don't think political correctness is the answer either. I just don't want to learn or listen to them but stopping others .. no way


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,AlanG at work
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 12:50 PM

I sing "The Flying Cloud" which has the line "we had the niggers up on deck and we hauled them in the tide". I've thought long and hard about whether I should replace "the niggers" with "their bodies" or whether they would prefer me to refer to them by the nword to hauling them in the tide.
Yes, it could be considered offensive, but slavery was offensive and to it sanitize it would make it appear more acceptable. At least in the end Edward Hollander repents of his wrongdoing - before he is hanged!


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: olddude
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 12:53 PM

If there is one good thing out of such songs, it is that it tells us how far we have come as a society ... Like I said, I play songs that I like and I don't like those songs so I don't and would not play them. But for those who do, it does remind us that we came a long way since then and still have a ways to go to accept people as people and not based on color or nationality.

I was looking at an old farm magazine from 1890's. The help wanted ads in the back .." looking for experienced farm hands, Irish need not apply"

all part of history and all teaching us that we came a long way since then


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Morris-ey
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 01:24 PM

Short answer: Yes. Long answer: see short answer.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 02:12 PM

Please save that magazine and scan it if you can and pass it on. There are people who claim those signs etc. never existed. Fat chance. mg


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 03:17 PM

Hey Pip - Nice list but I can find offence in quite a few of them if you like. Our 'hero' in 'Pleasant and Delightful; is off to India for seven long years - Presumably to subdue the natives ;-) You've never heard our version of Blood Red Roses if you can't find offence in that and what did that wee little drummer do to deserve such actions from a pair of pair of grown men? Bloody perverts...

Offence can be found in anything if you look close enough!

:D tG


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: BTNG
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 03:41 PM

As has been stated befire, some people will find offense in just about anything, sad really......


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 03:48 PM

"I sing "Where Did You Sleep Last Night" as "Black Girl" which sometimes gets me stares when I'm busking but i don't see it as that bad. "

"I sing "The Flying Cloud" which has the line "we had the niggers up on deck and we hauled them in the tide". I've thought long and hard about whether I should replace "the niggers" with "their bodies" or whether they would prefer me to refer to them by the nword to hauling them in the tide."

Thing is, would either of you sing those words to a room with black audience members inches away from you in the front row? Would you not feel a tiny bit self-concious singing "black girl, black girl, don' lie to me" to a black girl? (You should!) I'd put money on you either not singing those particular songs or changing a lyric. Even if you thought it was fine in principal, I bet you'd wimp out in practice.

I play more open-mic nights and singer-songwriter nights than I do folk nights. At the folk nights the audience is almost always entirely white people. At the open-mic/singer-songwriter nights it's a lot more mixed, especially in the South London pubs I frequent (I live in Brixton).

When I introduce "In The Pines" I sometimes talk about how Leadbelly's song is "black girl" but how people might just think I'm a little bit racialist to sing it that way. The anachronistic use of the archaic term "racialist" usually gets a laugh from the older ladies and gents in the audience - black or white - who remember the term from the Alf Garnett bad old days.

I've played some calypso and mento songs in a few Brixton pubs and it's actually really liberating. Doing stuff like "Iron Bar" or "Monkey's Wedding" , singing in a straightforward English London accent, not attempting any West Indian twang or anything, you get a massively warm response from the older guys there.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 04:00 PM

Matt: I should sing
"The plague it came and fever too
It killed them off like flies
We piled their bodies on the deck
And hove them o'er the side
For sure the dead were lucky then
They'd have to weep no more
Or drag the chain or a perfectly traditional version)

This is about the most shocking verse in folk song that I know,in the context of the rest of the song, and I dont see the point of diverting people's attention from the shocking nature of what is happening in the course of the voyage. Singing "niggers" will just make people think instantly of the appropriateness or not of using that word, and divert from consideration of the power and impact of the song as a whole.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 04:43 PM

I think it comes down to:
1) Singing songs as they were, in context. For example, in an historical program about previously accepted racism. Explaining the terms were common and acceptable will leave people asking why you didn't just change them to something relevant today in a typical concert,
2) Changing the offensive words so the words don't wind up being the audience's focus instead of the whole song.
3 Not singing the songs.

The people listening gets to make up their minds about how they feel about the songs, no matter whether the performer thinks they should or shouldn't be offended. You're probably going to piss somebody off -- just make sure it's worth it.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 08:55 PM

////Thing is, would either of you sing those words to a room with black audience members inches away from you in the front row? Would you not feel a tiny bit self-concious singing "black girl, black girl, don' lie to me" to a black girl? (You should!) I'd put money on you either not singing those particular songs or changing a lyric. Even if you thought it was fine in principal, I bet you'd wimp out in practice.////

Don't put money on it or you've lost it already. I don't sing any other version but "Black Girl" and, yes, I have sang it that way in front of black people and, no, I don't feel self-conscious about it. I also sing "Black Betty" which I use as an a capella interlude for Hooker's "Roll and Roll" and, again, have done this many times in front of black patrons and listeners. One time I broke into "Black Betty" and a young black woman standing on the corner with her daughter began to bob up and down to it in a way that told me she knew the song well.

Also my version of "Black Girl" does not turn her into a whore as some versions do--she sleeps around and men give her new clothes. I have the narrator asking where she gets the new clothes and she replies that her husband left them for her in the pines overnight. Then the narrator tells us that her husband had been dead a year. Then he demands one last time, "Where did you last night??" but she just gives the same answer: "In the pines where I shivered the whole night through" then I end it with a poignant guitar solo so there is no doubt that she is telling the truth. In other words, I turn the song into a ghost story.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:23 PM

Many good points made. However, I have to confess that a lot of this sounds so white, liberal middle class...the sort of people who love to hear nice, safe "folk music" but would die if they had to actually live it.

Each singer sings a song because they empathise with it it some way. Either for a story, a message or simply the beauty of tune or lyrics. Once you decide to sing a song you have to be true to it. There are plenty of traditional songs that I wouldn't sing because I just think they are crap, or I can't relate to the story within...Scarborough Fair, Outlandish Night, Matt Hyland, to name a few. Same attitude with modern songs.

But someone else will see something in them that I don't and therefore should sing them with all their heart. So what if it is perceived in a different age as racist? And, as has been pointed out, the context and motive of the singer is more important. I would say it is more important than the perceived "feelings" of the audience. What do we make of the local Tory councillor who likes to pop down his local club and sing the Gresford Disaster?

The audience is there to hear you. They take a chance.
To change words because they don't fit our western, liberal, middle class sense of contrived morals is ridiculous. I don't agree with incest, but the Sheath and Knife is a cracking story...


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:13 AM

off-topic,but- MtheGM's post about "Oliver Twist" reminded me that the one time I read Oliver Twist, (after I'd visited the Jewish Museum in Sydney for a history unit on Genocide in Year 10) I couldn't get past all the references to "the Jew". Why did Dickens do that?


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:28 AM

"There are plenty of traditional songs that I wouldn't sing because I just think they are crap, or I can't relate to the story within... Outlandish Night..."

A song about a resourceful young woman who turns the tables on the serial killer who has designs on her. Plenty to relate to there, I think. But, each to their own.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:39 AM

Morwen ~~ Why, because Dickens was a man of his time ~ which is, after all, the subtext, if not the main text, of this thread. It was OK then...

These days we have gone to the other extreme. My wife gets distressed when football commentators will refer to players by their nationality: e.g. if Tevez does something spectacular, they might say, "That was a fine run by the Argentinian". I think that they only do it to introduce a bit of variety into the commentary, and that Emma is being a bit fastidious; but I think I see where she is coming from.

Regards

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:08 AM

MacColl was required by the producers to include 'Sir Hugh' on The Long Harvest series of Ballads - I know he had qualms about it, but treated it as an eucational exercise and produced the following note for the ballad:

"The Story
Some little (school) hoys are playing ball, usually in the rain. One boy tosses his ball into a garden, or through the window, of a forbidden house. Out comes, usually, the Jew's daughter, (the Jew, a jeweller's daughter, King's daughter. Duke's daughter, aunt and sometimes even the child's mother!) to entice die child in with a scries of desirable objects. She takes him to a remote part of trie house where ins murder, almost ritual in character, takes place. Great emphasis is laid upon the bleeding of the child and the exit of his heart's blood. The child requests the placing of the Bible and Testament at his head and feet and/or is entombed in a sheet or cake of lead and thrown into a well. In the more complete versions, the mother comes looking for her child and holds a conversation with him from the top of the well (as in version A). The child instructs her where and when to meet him, to bring his winding-sheet and to bury him decently.
Child gives eighteen versions, seven Scots, eight English and three North American. Bronson gives sixty-six versions, sixty of which were collected during the present century. Of this number, two are Scots, six are English, one Irish and fifty-one North American. The oldest of Child's texts would seem to be dial from Percy's Reliques (BIB 56, 1-32), in 1765. Child gives excellent notes on the 'historical ' background, but very little about the modernisation or transmission of the ballad. It is generally held to be the ' folk form ' of an old European tale, die ' artistic form ' finding its highest expression the * Prioiesse's Tale ' of Chaucer. E. K. Wells (BIB 61, p. 309) suggests that if the two forms are nut related they at least stem from a common source.
The universally accepted location of the event in this ballad is nearly always Lincoln, although it is frequently referred to as Mirryland, Merry Land Town, Merry Scotland, etc. Even in a related piece which turned up in 1459 among Spanish Franciscans was entitled * Alfonsus of Lincoln'. The ballad is supposed to be founded on the following incident which may have occurred in 1255, which was documented in the Annab of Waverley by a contemporay writer ;
' A boy in Lincoln, named Hugh, was crucified by the Jews in contempt of Christ, with various preliminary tortures. To conceal the act from the Christians, the body, when taken from the cross, was thrown into a running stream; but the water would not endure the wrong done its maker and immediately ejected it upon dry land. The body was then buried in the earth but was found above dry ground the next day. The guilty parties were now very much frightened and quite at their wits end; as a last resort they threw the corpse into a drinking well. The body was seen floating on the water, and, upon its being drawn up, tiic hands and feet were found to be pierced, the head had, as it were, a crown of bloody points and there were various other wounds; from all which it was plain that this was the work of the abominable Jews. A blind woman, touching the bier on which the blessed martyr's corpse was carrying to the church, received her sight, and many other miracles follow. Eighteen Jews, convicted of the crime, and confessing it with their own mouth, were hanged .
Another chronicle of the time actually named the murderer, one Copin, who (it is said) confessed that the Jews crucified one boy each year. The child was interred in Lincoln Cathedral as a martyr and was entered in Christian hagiology as 'Little Saint Hugh' on the tablet above his tomb and the registers of the Cathedral. The tablet was strongly anti-Semitic and has recently been taken down due to public protest, being replaced by the following inscription:

THE SHRINE OF LITTLE SAINT HUGH
Trumped-up stories of "Ritual murders" of Christian boys by Jewish communities were common throughout Europe during the Middle Ages and even much later. These fictions cost many innocent Jews their lives. Lincoln had its own legend and the alleged victim was buried in die Cathedral. . . . Such stories do not redound to the credit of Christendom and so we pray,
REMEMBER NOT LORD OUR OFFENCES NOR THE OFFENCES OF OUR FOREFATHERS'
Child has an excellent passage in which he virtually dismisses the ballad as a piece of religious witch-hunting:

'. . . murders like that of Hugh of Lincoln have been imputed to the Jews for at least 750 years and the charge, which there is reason to suppose may still from time to time be renewed, has brought upon the accused every calamity that the hand of man can inflict: pillage, confiscation, banishment, torture and death, and this in huge proportions. The process of these murders has often been described as a parody of the crucifixion of Jesus. The motive . . . the obtaining of blood for use in the Pasehai rites—a most unhappily devised slander, in stark contradiction with Jewish precept and practice. . . . And these pretended child-murders, with their horrible consequences, are only a part of a persecution which, with all moderation, may be rubricated as the most disgraceful chapter in the history of the human race '.

Indeed, the chronicling of the Hugh of Lincoln murder suggests considerable confusion. There are so many similar events, many of which have the same name for the little victim, taking place in cities all over the Christian world, and happening from the early 1200's up until the present century, that one can only regard the theme of the ballad as a kind of recurring social and economic (rather than religious} catharsis. This century, in 1928, a charge of ritual murder was brought against the Jews of Massena, New York; and the unbelievable atrocities of World War II, to which whole populations in Europe were eye-witness and hence in part responsible, were only logical accumulation of the centuries and centuries of the type of superstition and panic behind the story of little Sir Hugh. It is significant that in several American versions the Jew has become a gypsy, a people also regarded with fear, superstition and ignorance by the settled populations: a people also often accused of child-stealing and persecuted up to modern times in much the same manner as the Jews.
In the mid-1300's, there was a 92-verse Anglo-French ballad, laying heavy emphasis on the role of the Virgin in the song. A miracle versified from an earlier source by Gautier de Coincy some thirty or forty years BEFORE the death of little Hugh, would suggest that parts of the ballad are pure Christian myth. Several scholars make the point that the ballad is an excellent vehicle for the miracle of Our Lady and that the essential religious character of the Jew or Jewess has gradually been excised oul, The boy is often found, in the older version, with the wounds of Christ upon him and he triumphantly cheats death, is raised from the well. Very rarely is the murderer ever punished in the ballad—the ballad ends usually with the boy's instructions to lay him out with the Bible adjacent, or with the miracle of his resurrection.
In the most common American versions, even though the Jew's daughter is the murderess, there are no religious overtones. After all, in the early years of settlement in America Jewry was not persecuted— at least no more than the Indians or the Mormons, and other minorities. In some areas, Appalachia, most parts of New England, Jewry was not even represented in noticeable numbers. New social scapegoats or aristocratic substitutions, such as the * gypsy lady,' or the * Duke's daughter,' took the place of the Jewess. Or else the murder became surely a family affair, or a fragment of a song, as in our versions C and '. In that wonderful ' re-creation ' of the ballad, entitled ' Water Birch,' the murderess is the child's mother. Or just ' they,' as in a Missouri text.
Bclden believes that 'what has kept the ballad alive in America is probably not, however, racial or religious animosity but the simple pathos of the little schoolboy's death '. The religious significance both of the Jewish murderess and the Christian miracle! have both been played down. James Wooddal, on the other hand, suggests (Southern Folklore Quarterly, 1955, pp. 77-84) that sex and mystery, not anti-Semitism, make the ballad and allow it to survive.
Mystery there certainly is—and many superstitions which have dominated European balladry and mythology for centuries before little Sir Hugh met his unfortunate end. For instance, the ritual nature of the murder, the laying of the boy on a table, ' sticking him like a sheep ' and catching his blood in a basin; the ritual of rolling the child in lead and throwing him down a well; the 'ritual' of the conversation between the corpse and its loving mother—these are all variations on stock-in-trade features that so characterise violence in our balladry."

I never once heard him sing the ballad again, despite its superb tune (which he used for one of his own songs 'The Dead Men'
It's difficult to treat songs with offensive themes in this way as many people resent the idea that a folk club should be 'educational' - I once heard Bob Davenport talk loudly through the introductions y a wonderful Irish language singer who felt it necessary to give thumbnail explanations of Irish language songs; Davenport gave the reason for his behaviour as "We came here to listen to singing not f****** talking - I thought we' left this sh*** behind in the 60s" - how can you go against such articulate argument!!!!!
As for altering the texts - bizzarly, an American version of the ballad transforms the killer from a Jew into a Gypsy!
A similar problem emerged in the late 70s with sexist songs; the result being we lost many of our great songs.
On the whole I agree with Vic Smith
No, they're not OK.
unless you can fit them into a context
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:11 AM

Should be "educational" of course,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:23 AM

Singing about medieval incest as an interesting tragedy is one thing. Singing about Jews murdering innocent babes for their blood is another.

Particularly since, as Steeleye showed, you can change it to "lady gay" (or "fair" if you prefer) and lose absolutely nothing except the antisemitism.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:31 AM

The context is essentially academic & historical, and very cautious at that, BUT once you put them into the realms of public entertainment (recordings & performances) then they can no longer be guaranteed to have that context. What is MacColl's performance of Sir Hugh without the sleevenote - i.e. outside of that context?

Or is 'Folk' context enough? For some it obviously is, a search on YouTube reveals. I'm not so sure. How much of a 'Horrible Histories' approach can one take to such issues when they remain so very vivid today?


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:31 AM

I don't know if you know this or have heard it before, MtheGM, but the character of Fagin is said to have been inspired by a real-life fence and gangmaster of child thieves,(at least that was apparently a rumour about him) called Ikey Solomon. He died in 1850 and was famous for his prison breaks.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:45 AM

Thank you for that reminder, Morwen; I had heard of it, but long ago, so I am grateful to you. I found an informative article in Wikipedia on Isaac ['Ikey'] Solomon.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 08:38 AM

I notice that there is a version of Little Sir Hugh in the mudcat database. If it is not to be sung then removing it to prevent people reading it would be the obvious next step.
I guess it won't be removed as collectors and academics would no doubt object, pointing out the historical importance of the material; well they have to make a living.
john


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: johncharles
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 08:54 AM

last post was me cookie went awol


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 08:54 AM

"What is MacColl's performance of Sir Hugh without the sleevenote "
Which is why it never appeared without the sleeve note
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,matt m
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 10:15 AM

"I don't sing any other version but "Black Girl" and, yes, I have sang it that way in front of black people and, no, I don't feel self-conscious about it. I also sing "Black Betty" which I use as an a capella interlude for Hooker's "Roll and Roll" and, again, have done this many times in front of black patrons and listeners. One time I broke into "Black Betty" and a young black woman standing on the corner with her daughter began to bob up and down to it in a way that told me she knew the song well."


Well there's a big difference between the lyrics of "Black Betty" and "Black Girl"!!

I guess I should be glad that there are places where you live where racism is such a thing of the past that a white singer can sing the words of a black man menacingly interrogating a black woman about her faithfulness without it making the atmosphere remotely uneasy.

I guess the America I read about and hear about is very different from the truth. There isn't anywhere like that here in London.

The places where I play, I'd get heckled ("white boy, white boy..." perhaps!) By my friends, at the very least!

Actually, uneasiness of atmosphere aside, I would just think it a bit naff. The fact that when I introduce the song (describing the prospect of me, a white middle-class bloke, singing the black working-class Leadbelly's sinister inquisition as "black girl") and get *laughs* from black (and white) members of the audience tells me absolutely everything I need to know.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 11:02 AM

Which is why it never appeared without the sleeve note

I bet it has, Jim. A recorded performance and its sleevenote gang aft agley...


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:22 PM

matt m,

I didn't say a white singer could necessarily sing "Black Girl" in front of black patrons. I've never seen that happen.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Morris-ey
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 01:52 PM

A song is a song; no one has ethnic rights to the performance of it.

Stevie Wonder can sing White Christmas as far as I am concerned.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 04:21 PM

Comparative Anti-Semitism in medieval folk legend (strictly academic):

http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/antisemitic.html

(found via links in Bonnie's Folklore & Mythology Electronic Texts thread)


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:27 PM

If any of us are lucky enough to have someone sing one of our songs in 100 years would you be happy that they changed your lyrics - not in order to make better linguistic sense with the change of time, but because they had decided that your morals were somehow deficient?

The songs mentioned above are not racist songs. They have words and language that some people consider today to BE racist, and they cannot hear the song as a whole because of their unease with certain words.

If a song can be shown to be written purely as a taunt against certain people, then that would be a different matter. Think of all the Irish Orange and Fenian songs around....irrelevant today unless you want to continue the bigotry. You also get Irish songs written about events from the point of view of each side of the fence...they aren't written to generate hostility, just songs.

I just think most people can see the difference between a song that has language that is (temporarily and subjectively) out of kilter with the current time, and songs that are really written to target certain groups.

Part of the trouble of course is that as soon as one person objects to something, English culture in particular seems to bend over backwards to accommodate that one view, and before you know it, what was one individual view has somehow transformed into accepted wisdom.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 12:00 AM

You're welcome, MtheGM


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Guest-AVFS
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 01:01 AM

Aah, are racist, but traditional jokes OK?
Is racist, but traditional slang OK?
Are racist, but traditional bedtime stories OK?
Are racist, but traditional secret society pledges OK?

Except in the special case--which may be what this question is referring to-- of singing the song as a critique to demonstrate the harmfulness or the subtle persuaciveness of the racism in the song--I don't see how this is really a question.

Repeating racist content is sharing racist ideas. Having a nice softening traditional patina on it doesn't change that.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 02:59 AM

"I bet it has, Jim. A recorded performance and its sleevenote gang aft agley."
I'm sure you're right Sub, but then you're presenting us wih a scenario where we are unable to deal in any way with past attitudes.
I have no doubt of MacColl's uneasiness in putting the ballad on The Long Harvest and I am not sure it would have been my decision to do so, but we're then left with the decision of what to do with material that gives offence - not only racist attitudes.
Do we ban all performances of The Merchant of Venice, The Taming of the Shrew or Othello; do we not book singers who sing The Gentleman Soldier, The Wedensbury Cocking (or all those incredibly dirge-like 'killing-for-pleasure' hunting songs)?
Do we demand the removal of Sir Hugh from the newly published Child collection because somebody might ignore the notes and learn the songs?
Do we face up to past practices by presenting them in a context in which they can be examined or do we pretend they never happened?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 04:40 AM

Increasingly I think it's bit of red herring to talk about what "gives offence", what's "offensive".

I'm not "offended" by racists; that's not the right word to sum up how they make me feel. I think they're stupid. They make me angry.

That notion of racism being bad because it "causes offence" seems a bit "BBC TV schedules from the 1970s" me. Racism is bad because it's prejudicial and violent. In institutional form it denies social and legal rights to people; in brute form it means GBH and murder.

Also, there's a big difference between what's written down and what's sung. Old canonical works of literature, such as novels that feature anachronistic racist caricatures/descriptions/speech differ from songs in that the text is *inherently* up for discussion.

You read it. You analyse it. It's a document. Is a song a document? Not when it's sung. A written text (or document) becomes a little bit closer to a song when it is read aloud or dramatised. As has been already pointed out several times in this thread, if someone performs a song live, it doesn't come with the explanatory notes that are in the songbook or the history book. The closest you get is a prefatory speech from the performer.

But plays are different again. It's a bad analogy to cite the Merchant of Venice, Taming of the Shrew or Othello. As plays they can - and routinely are - performed in ways that can make a character (or even just a line of dialogue) mean the opposite of what the words superficially may seem to me. Plays are subject to interpretation in performance, not just in the readings of literary critics.

There are anti-racist readings of Merchant of Venice and Othello. There are feminist readings of Taming of the Shrew. That's the great thing about drama, two versions of the same play can have entirely different meanings.

It's very, very hard indeed to try to say the same thing of the songs we're talking about. Take these lines by Big Bill Broonzy: "Lookin' for a woman that ain't never been kissed
We can get along and I won't have to use my fist"

That is a very ugly line, its casual violence is truly breathtaking. In theory, I can just about imagine there's a way in which somebody, somewhere, might conceivably be able to find a context for singing that, in a way that made it "just a song", or a "piece of history". But in practice... not in a million years.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 04:57 AM

I don't have any trouble changing sex for the duration of a song, because I know and my audience knows that I'm not doing it to imitate a woman - I'm just doing the song. Changing race is much more fraught, and I think it's best avoided - do the song, but do it as yourself, using the accent that's as natural to you as the original would be to the original singer. And that may mean changing the words. I've sung "In the Pines"/WDYSLN, and I sang the line as "Young girl" because that was how I'd learnt it. For me, it worked better that way. At the risk of stating the obvious, addressing someone as "Black girl, black girl" sounds very different if the singer's White himself (or indeed herself).

Apart from that, we've been talking about two different types of song here. One is songs with offensive language: songs about whatever subject - love, war, being a postman - which incorporate attitudes that we now have a problem with, e.g. by using the N-word. I've got a certain sympathy with people who insist on singing "Railroad nigger with his hog-eye" (or "as rich as any Jew") on the grounds of authenticity, but ultimately I think they're mistaken. I think Will nailed this one upthread: leaving it as it is would attract too much attention, even if you explained what you were doing, so it's better - and ultimately more faithful to the song - to use a different word.

The other is the songs which have offensive topics or express offensive attitudes, like the one in the OP. I veer the other way on this one - I don't like the idea that there are any songs we should stop singing. Contrary to the OP, I think Hugh of Lincoln was a highly appropriate choice for an event supporting "Folk Against Fascism", precisely because it's a song of traditional English anti-semitism; if Alasdair Roberts did anything wrong it was by not introducing the song properly.

The exception to all of this is when you have new or contemporary songs with offensive topics, e.g. praising the glories of life in the Old South or lamenting the hardships of white settlers in Africa. As far as I'm concerned there's no need for them to be written, let alone sung.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 05:36 AM

So,
If I decide to sing Paddy's Lament/The Sick Note/The Bricks, do I have to preface it with a disclaimer that I don't actually believe that the Irish are all thick navvies?


And, just in case, I hasten to add that that is not what I believe.

Cheers
Nigel


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 06:42 AM

I just looked up the lyrics to the songs you sang. There's nothing in them to suggest that "the Irish are all thick navvies".

Whereas it's impossible to claim that, in the case of the "Sir Hugh" song, the "Jewishness" of the bloodthirsty character is circumstantial.

if you want to compare the two, well in the first instance it's dealing with a situation of emigrant manual labour rooted in fact - a significant part of Ireland's *actual history*.

Whereas the other just repeats an old myth about Jews being unnatural bloodthirsty monsters. Buried in Sir Hugh (Jew murders little boy; the truth posthumously comes out via supernatural means) is the "Christ Killer" idea (Jews responsible for the death of Jesus; Jesus rises from the dead via divine power)


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 06:58 AM

"lamenting the hardships of white settlers in Africa" - I should think that is a very good thing to sing about, especially in Rhodesia!!!


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 03:56 PM

I should think that is a very good thing to sing about

It's not a hypothetical example, and I walked out.


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Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 10:47 PM

I'd do the same.


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