The beauty of hornpipes

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 02:23 PM

Paul, if I might excerpt from your fine research:

"In 1997 I had occasion to play ʻThe Newtondale Hornpipeʼ with its composer David Shepherd. This melody, it transpires, is a minor key re-working of the reel form, ʻGoathland Square Eightʼ, a melody in common time. David and I played the melody together without recourse to any form of notation. Shepherd asked where I had learned it and I confessed to having transcribed it from a recording of his playing. Examination of my transcription, however, revealed that I had notated the tune in the standard 2/2 time. Shepherd had written it as an example of a melody in 3/2 time in the manner of the ʻold Englishʼ hornpipe. Despite these differences the melodies scanned perfectly in a playing context but looked different in a written form.

"Further experiments in barring melodies in 3/2 time as if they were the later 2/2 form revealed that, for all practical purposes, they are one and the same. The effect is obvious in listening where the element of two beats in place of three gives that curious and distinctive feel which is the modern hornpipe. My suggestion is that the hornpipe in 2/2 is nothing more than an attempt to quantise a hornpipe played in 3/2. This takes up a third less space on the page which, in earlier times when paper was scarce or expensive, may have been an economic consideration. This is then a matter of notational convention rather than an actual change in practice. The placing of twelve quavers in the space of three minim beats is entirely consistent with the way in which the melody manifests itself to the traditional player and gives the element of syncopation so noticeable in practice. Where this occurs there can be seen again the six beat structure occurring across the pattern but articulated by the player in a single bar in the ʻcut timeʼ form."

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 02:12 PM

Raymond, I'm not going to write an essay here but…if you're really interested then please have a look at the paper I did on that subject a couple of years ago. You can download it from;
http://www.hallamtrads.co.uk/Downloads.html
Paul

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 01:09 PM

EXcellent question. I have no answer. Who can explain fashion? I have often wondered whether part of the explanation might the influence of black musicians and dancers geting involved in English life in seaports in the mid 1700's, but that is pure idle speculation.

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 12:57 PM

Now that an obliging spammer has kicked this thread back into life, here's a question:

Sometime in the 18th century 3:2 hornpipes were superceded by the 4:4 form. Anyone got any ideas why this happened?

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: Jim Martin
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 01:05 AM

I always think hornpipes are the best part of set dancing where they quite often appear at the end of a lot of the sets such as The Caledonian which was (and is) danced in W.Clare. Here is a good example by a musician who knew well the old style of playing them in W.Clare:

http://www.uilleannobsession.com/audio/clarefm_Wed%2020-09-06_tommy1.mp3

Dancers sometimes danced a short hornpipe when they didn't seem to want to change partners; if they did, then they would dance a long one and had good craic with the partner changing which ensued!

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 05:40 PM

A pause for an interesting historical note on the form from Pete Cooper, (which I came on in researching the origins of Staten Island Hornpipe):

[The Scottish fiddler in Tyneside, mid 1800s] James Hill's music made the most lasting impact. His repertoire included waltzes, jigs, reels and strathspeys, but his hornpipes became famous in his own time, and are played today. With titles like The Cage (referring to the lift that took miners down to the coalface) and The High-Level Bridge (celebrating the two-tier road and rail bridge built across the Tyne in 1848), they seem to confidently embrace the industrial world. Also named after pubs (The Hawk) and racehorses (Beeswing), often in the flat keys, and sometimes, like the new polkas, including both key shifts from one section to another and short chromatic runs, Hill's tunes represent an evolutionary development of the hornpipe form. The introduction of a 'dotted,' or more accurately, 'triplet swing,' rhythm is combined with new bowing patterns, especially the use of slurs across the beat. William C. Honeyman, in his 1898 'Strathspey, Reel and Hornpipe Tutor,' termed it the Newcastle Style. Graham Dixon suggests a three-fold cause for the popularity of the hornpipe. 'A section of the now urban population with rural roots would be used to step dancing to hornpipes. The developing Tyneside theatre and music hall exposed large audiences to the stage hornpipe, and the large Tyneside Irish community with its own musical roots would also be familiar with the hornpipe.' Hill appears not to have attempted to publish his own compositions, but violinist W. B. Laybourn, who lived in North Shields from 1845 to 1858, later became the editor of 'Köhler's Violin Repository', a weekly music magazine, and published many of them. Others were published in 1882 by J. Stokoe in the Newcastle Courant.
...

So the dots are a mid-19th century thing... hmm.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 05:36 PM

Golden Eagle is one of my favourites. I quite like this harp version

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 03:02 PM

Two from the Peak District of Derbyshire played as notated in the Thomas Watts MS, i.e. undotted. They would work fine played dotted as well.

Mr. Moore's / The Red Otter

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 12:19 PM

Thanks, leeneia - that "New Century" "B" part is perfect for the tenor guitar...

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 12:11 PM

Thanks Will, I've listened to them both. 'Staten Island Steps' seems to be a case of hornpipe-meets-jazz-era. Unusual, definitely still good.

I love the joyous tone of 'New Century Hornpipe' at the beginning of the B part.

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 04:21 AM

Some excellent clips and comments here - thanks to all.

Let me keep the pot boiling with a couple more examples of the hornpipe. The first one is a lovely one called:

The New Century Hornpipe

which I got from the playing of Norman Blake. The second is a bent and perverted version of "Staten Island". There's a great version of this played on two high whistles in D by Hamish Moore and Dick Lee on their album "The Bees Knees". I've taken it a step further and called it:

Staten Island Steps

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 03:55 PM

Recently there was a thread on a song called 'Gloomy Winter's Noo Awa,' whose tune was originally 'Lord Balgonie's Favorite.' I'm pretty sure that was originally a hornpipe, and a very jaunty one.

I typed it up for playing at the piano and by the gang.

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 03:42 PM

Two more 3/2 Hornpipes

Go to Berwick Johnny and Reed House Rant

Reed House Rant is also known as "The Old Lancaster Hornpipe"

Both are in the 18th Century Northumbrian manuscript by William Vickers.

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 02:20 PM

here is Rodneys Gloryhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WERCxxqJS4

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 12:17 PM

Nice topic Will F, I'm a sucker for hornpipes. Here's a sample, me with the Boat Band playing Keswick Bonnie Lasses and The Grand Hornpipe (aka Henry Stables' Grand Hornpipe or the Port Eynon Whim). Rightly called Grand, it is one of my all time favourites. As are the Bees Wing, the Calgarth, the Golden Eagle, the Belfast and the High Level. As for 3/2 ones, I vote for George King's and the Cobblers as a pretty splendid pair.

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 11:43 AM

I agree with Bonnie about playing hornpipes too fast. Here in the North of England there is tendency to play a bit too quickly generally and going too fast can spoil tunes.

OTOH, if you are playing for dancing, you musn't drag either.

Here is an example of superb hornpipe playing from Ireland in the 1960s

One of my own composition. The second tune of the two on this clip: Cleveland Hills/Down Along the Tees

Steamboat again on this clip

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 11:35 AM

@ Bonnie: d'Oh!

MOLLOY, not Malloy. Mixing Matt up with Moose Malloy from Farewell My Lovely (don't ask...)

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 11:15 AM

Thanks for starting this great thread, Will. This is what I like best about Mudcat - finding great new music to play and to share with friends.

I have already found a MIDI for "If you will not have me, you may let me go" at TheSession.org (thanks, treewind. Loved your video.)

The only hornpipe we do is a real beauty - "Hole in the Wall" which some think was written by Henry Purcell and which some think he merely borrowed from the current dance scene. Whatever the case, it's quite old and you can obtain it:

HERE

------------------Clicky added. JoeClone------------

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 11:13 AM

@ Will:

Yep! I fell in love with it when I heard an old (c. 1960s) recording of a Scottish fiddling contest in which it featured (with a few strathspey "snaps" which I gather weren't in the original).

I fell in love with Independence when I heard Matt Malloy play it on TV back in the 80s and took it off the video recording. I later discovered it in an old collection, so it's at least 19th century. What a great thread this is!

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 10:42 AM

In Cape Breton MacNabs Hornpipe is a standard on both pipes and fiddle.
Here Ashley MacIsaac gives it a go:
MacNabs Hornpipe

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 09:32 AM

Bonnie- is your "The Bee's Wing" the same as James Hill's "Beeswing"? If so, that's another great hornpipe from the bow of Hill - who also wrote "Proudlock's Fancy".

Now, I just wish I could play Hill's stuff in the original key of Bb on the fiddle!

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 09:16 AM

I love hornpipes too, though I wish people didn't play them so fast these days (at least here). Excessive speed makes the melody lose that elegant swing and all its rhythmic subtleties. So many of them now just come out sounding like bouncy reels that it's often hard to tell the difference (if there IS one).

Particular favourites of mine are The Independence Hornpipe and The Bee's Wing, both of which go into triple-meter in their last sections, so it makes quite an effective pairing.

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: Charmion
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 09:03 AM

I love hornpipes. My favourite tuneset begins with Chief O'Neill's Favourite and goes through Kitty's Wedding and The Home Ruler to finish with the Staten Island -- banale, yes, but the great virtue of the hornpipe form is that you keep the speed down enough to play lots of variations. Of course, that also gives the fancy dancers time to fling their feet around most spectacularly.

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 08:37 AM

Brilliant playing!

Everyone should listen!

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 08:08 AM

"If You Will Not Have Me You May Let Me Go" must be one of the best English trad tunes around (and the most fantastic title too - anyone know how if there's a good story on how it got that name?)

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 06:21 AM

Excellent - what a feast! Quite made my morning. I particularly liked "The Steamboat" and "Stoney Steps" - and the 3/2 "If You Will Not Have Me You May Let Me Go" is wonderful.

Thank you very much!

Subject: RE: The beauty of hornpipes
From: treewind
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 05:38 AM

I got hornpipes...
Some of these aren't in dotted rhythm like yours, and a couple are in 3/2 time. YouTube links unless otherwise stated.

Parsleys and The Steamboat
MP3 of Ethel's Cats playing Bielbie's and The Grand Hornpipe (live dance gig, with caller shouting)

These are in straight quavers instead of dotted, but they are still hornpipes:
John Locke's and The Coleford Jig (Coleford is not a 6/8 jig!)
Harliquin Air and Tom Fowler's Hornpipe
Stoney Steps
Bang Up and Sweep's Hornpipe

3/2 Hornpipes:
If You Will Not Have Me You May Let Me Go (3/2)
Rusty Gulley

Subject: The beauty of hornpipes
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 05:17 AM

As far as traditional tunes are concerned, I'm a sucker for hornpipes. Jigs, reels, strathspeys, etc., are all good fun, but there's something about the jauntiness of a good hornpipe that sets me up for the day!

I'd love to see videos or hear sound files of hornpipes recorded by other Mudcatters - post your links hear. If you haven't recorded any but can recommend some excellent specimens that have taken your fancy, let's hear from you...

Can I start the ball rolling with Proudlock's Fancy...