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BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
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Subject: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 14 Oct 11 - 07:22 AM This thread is inspired by the music discussion thread "Are racist, but traditional songs OK?" which discusses the English ballad "Little Sir Hugh" and its anti-Semitism. MtheGM's comment about Oliver Twist and the character of Fagin, who was inspired by the historical figure Isaac "Ikey" Solomon, led me to ask the question; Does anyone here believe that a character created as a racial, ethnic, or religious stereotype can be depicted in a reworking of a story, emphasising religious or racial aspects, without reinforcing a stereotype? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: artbrooks Date: 14 Oct 11 - 07:58 AM Perhaps. I'd think it would depend a great deal on whether or not the original stereotype was intended to be positive or negative. Consider the character of Tarzan. In Burroughs' original telling, he was certainly a racial/ethnic stereotype - a 'white'/English boy, raised from infancy by great apes, who taught himself to read and who somehow acquired superior moral standards in the process - even though his only human examples were a very brutish tribe of African natives. This has been retold many times in the movies and TV, and the character of the Africans has evolved, but Tarzan himself remains much the same. Or perhaps I missed the thrust of your question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Oct 11 - 09:08 AM In a retelling of a story anything can be changed. That could involve reinforcing a stereotype, challenging a stereotype or changing to a different stereotype. Maybe it might be better to tell a new story, doing it the way the author thinks it really should be done. The problem with stereotypes is not that they are necessarily inaccurate portrayals of individuals, but that they are taken as representative of a much wider group - a race, a nationality etc. Sometimes that is the intention of the author, frequently it is not. Dickens protested strongly against the suggestion that he intended Fagin to be taken as a representative Jew, any more than Bill Sikes was intended to be taken as a representative Englishman. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: Bobert Date: 14 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM If one is honest then there is no other way to tell the story... I mean, there are history books being used in Virginia that don't use the term slavery... Then we wonder why kids grow up and don't know squat about our history... If you are going to tell a story that deals with the past, there's a place for the fiction but the setting needs to be somewhat accurate... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 14 Oct 11 - 07:12 PM Well, I don't know if Dickens consciously intended Fagin to be a negative Jewish stereotype, but I think he was drawing on Jewish stereotypes to create a Jewish character, who was based on newspaper stories and possibly other things that he had read. But I do know that this story isn't really a faithful retelling of it as |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 14 Oct 11 - 11:14 PM *that I'm doing*. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 14 Oct 11 - 11:26 PM BTW, Ikey Solomon ( the inspiration for Fagin) was known as "The prince of fences". he was very different in real life to his fictionalized portrayal- he didn't die on the gallows, (partly because of petitions from people in the East End of London, who liked him and his own skill as an escape artist), he was tall and well-dressed, and he was a prominent underworld figure, in contrast to Dickens' character who isn't all that powerful, well-liked, or loyal and is a totally negative stereotype. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 15 Oct 11 - 01:52 AM i.e. dirty, a cheapskate, betrays everyone... whether Dickens |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 15 Oct 11 - 06:15 AM Refresh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Oct 11 - 10:11 AM You could always have Oliver Twist and his rescuer Jewish as well, to balance things. That wouldn't even entail any significant change in the plot, just something Dickens never got round to telling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: dick greenhaus Date: 15 Oct 11 - 01:06 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 15 Oct 11 - 02:15 PM Why don't we just ban everything that happened before 1985 ? That way we'll offend no one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: BTNG Date: 15 Oct 11 - 03:09 PM Wasn't it George Eliot (a lovely woman who said what she mean't and mean't what she said) who said, and I quote, "We cannot reform our forefathers"? So I really wish the politically inept would stop trying, it's getting very tiresome when one has to watch what one says with out fear of offending some poor little darling. Here's the obvious answer to the aforesaid politically inept, you don't like what some people have to say....? don't listen and STOP trying to tell people what to say and what to do!! BTNG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 15 Oct 11 - 06:13 PM Incidentally, it isn't just modern (ie 21st century people) who are offended by Fagin's portrayal. A short time after Dickens wrote the novel, Jewish readers wrote to him to discuss their opinions of the character. So, the fact that Fagin is a Jewish stereotype (and the character's connection to Isaac Solomon, "Prince of Fences") has been realised for a long, long time. It isn't just something that's only been picked up on recently. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 15 Oct 11 - 06:21 PM BTW, I am a Chinese-Australian woman, and if a White writer wrote a book with a criminal character referred to only as "The Chinese", or "the Chinaman" (old term, I know) I would be offended. Basically because no-one calls a Chinese man, or a man of Chinese descent, a "Chinaman" in the 21st century (I hope) but also it's offensive to only refer to a person by their ethnicity/religion/ancestry, especially if they are the only charcter with that background in your story, and everyone else (from the dominant culture) isn't referred to by their background . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Oct 11 - 06:24 PM The thing is is, for most unfavourable stereotypesreal individuals exist who match them, and accordingly, fictitious individuals as well. The same applies for favourable stereotypes, which come in for less criticism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 15 Oct 11 - 09:40 PM I don't know why this happens (if I come off as offensive I apologise) but why, whenever someone posts a thread on this forum about controversial topics, especially related to racism and ethnicity, is there always a poster who complains "political correctness " when racism/stereotyping is the subject, and act as though everyone in the past was unaware of racial stereotypes? I'm not talking about literally taking Oliver Twist <\i> and rewriting all the anti-Semitic language, but about something else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: meself Date: 15 Oct 11 - 10:55 PM It's a favourite hobby-horse, bete-noir, bogey-man, and/or pet peeve (choose one) of many of our members (particularly, it seems, those of a certain locale that shall remain nameless for fear of giving offence). Don't try to fight it, unless you're ready a very long battle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 15 Oct 11 - 11:35 PM Another interesting possibility- slavery was abolished in the British Empire in the 1830s, when "Oliver Twist" was set. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: GUEST,999 Date: 16 Oct 11 - 08:03 AM The 'Act for the Abolition of the Slave Trade' was passed in 1807 in Britain. The 1833 Act you mention: "In 1833 Parliament passed a further act to abolish slavery in the British West Indies, Canada and the Cape of Good Hope (southern Africa), meaning that it was now illegal to buy or own a person. However, slavery continued in other areas of the British Empire including the territories run by the East India Company, Ceylon (modern day Sri Lanka) and St Helena. Between 1808 and 1869 the Royal Navy's West Africa Squadron seized over 1,600 slave ships and freed about 150,000 Africans but, despite this, it is estimated that a further 1 million people were enslaved and transported throughout the 19th Century." FYI |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: Bonzo3legs Date: 16 Oct 11 - 08:20 AM "but also it's offensive to only refer to a person by their ethnicity/religion/ancestry, especially if they are the only charcter with that background in your story, and everyone else (from the dominant culture) isn't referred to by their background ." For christ's sake, I am a white Church of England (perish the thought) Englishman - that is what the hell I am. You are a half China-woman - who cares????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: Bonzo3legs Date: 16 Oct 11 - 11:06 AM And everybody comes from somewhere!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Oct 11 - 11:34 AM If there's only one American (say) in the story, and all the others are English (say) I can't see why it'd be offensive to refer to him or her as "the American" without feeling it necessary to add "English" to every other character. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: Bonzo3legs Date: 16 Oct 11 - 12:08 PM A South American probably would find it """"""offensive"""""""!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 16 Oct 11 - 06:13 PM Thanks, 999! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Oct 11 - 07:53 PM It is the constant stereotyping of people from Liechtenstein that really pisses me off! What has Liechtenstein ever done to deserve such abuse? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: BTNG Date: 16 Oct 11 - 07:58 PM "What has Liechtenstein ever done to deserve such abuse?" probably the same as Andorra ,just because it exists |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MarkS Date: 16 Oct 11 - 07:59 PM Their most popular song is "The Liechtensteiner Polka." Isn't that enough? Ja Ja, Ja Ja Mein Schatz! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: GUEST,999 Date: 16 Oct 11 - 09:07 PM LH, we gotta have a loooooooong talk. ################################## Stereotypes can be both a help and a hindrance. I doubt "All in the Family" would have been half the enlightening TV show it was without stereotypes. Its humour depended on preconceived ideas people had of other people. It helped cause a nation to examine some of its prejudices at a time it needed that. That time is no longer. Leon Uris used stereotypes to great effect in what I consider to be his best novel, "Mila 18", one of the more powerful books anyone ever wrote. He established characters and then deconstructed them before the readers eyes until we were left with human beings--foibles and admirable qualities--and the turmoil of having our earlier ideas presented naked, and we had to deal with them. Then of course we have the opposite so frequent in conversations with people who never DID get it: Well, you know what THEY'RE like. Little Hawk in fact has written volumes of material about characters we can all identify with. Chongo, who can make remarks that would otherwise piss people off because they were attacked or called to account for some really stupid thing they said--but, how pissed off can ya be. Chongo is a friggin' monkey! Or Shane and his idiot brother, and for a year I fell for that. LH was able to create the 'stereotypical' Canuck (if you've ever seen these guys ) with Shane, and as Canadians we mostly laughed at it and with it, thinking at once it was funny because each of us knows people just like that and simultaneously thinking 'only a cretin would believe this sh#t' of all Canadians. We find the same self-effacing humour with Newfoundlanders, Maritimers, Albertans, Saskatchewaneons/Saskatchewenians/Saskatcheweeans people from Saskatchewan and even people from New Brunswick. Then the ugly obverse of the coin: those who know only the stereotype and knowing that extend their insight to all people of the race, creed, colour, sex, age, religion, location, etc. Ain't much can be done about that. They'll die off soon enough. And LH, I know Chongo is an ape--I just don't give a rat's a$$. Back to ya, bro. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Oct 11 - 09:34 PM You got it covered well there, 999. Yup, stereotypes can be used either to raise the consciousness of people about prejudice...or to promote prejudice. It depends how you use them and with what intention. I find Chongo a fascinating character, because he is "every-ape". All the issues that get Chongo worked up are the same issues we find humans getting worked up over, and for the same reasons. He wants respect. He wants equality. He wants security, protection under the law, and a means to earn a good living. He wants to treated as an individual, not a stereotype....and yet....he is NOT entirely free of prejudice himself! Matter of fact, he has a number of pretty noticeable prejudices. So he is not only everyape...he's everyman...but in a form we can all feel relatively comfortable with, since it is one step removed from the stuff we actually have to deal with in our real daily lives. As for Shane, I find the guy kind of likable...mainly because he is so innocent. He really doesn't get how irresponsible and dumb (though basically trivial) his behaviour is. He thinks he's on the fast track to being a really cool and successful dude, when nothing could be farther from the truth. This protects Shane, in a way, because if he could see himself as most others see him, the poor guy would just be destroyed by it. His innocence is his armour against the many disappoints in life. Let us hope it gets him through "the glory years" of his youth. If he's lucky, he'll die still relatively young in some incredibly stupid way before inevitable old age and disillusionment bring him crashing down to hard reality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 16 Oct 11 - 09:56 PM BTW, as I've said before, Dickens took a real-life fence (Ikey Solomon) as inspiration. but he made the character loosely based on him a stereotype- unintentionally or not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Oct 11 - 10:05 PM I forgot to mention the one thing Chongo probably wants most (at least after respect)....he wants to be loved (Preferably by a long-legged and really classy female of the human persuasion). This is a Don Quixote-like passion on his part, unlikely to ever be attained, but everyone should have a dream, right? ;-D He never really got over his first sight of those loooooong high-heeled legs going by on the streets of New York. King Kong was affected much the same way...but the poor guy was just too damn BIG! A tragic tale if ever there was one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 16 Oct 11 - 11:26 PM Anyone want to comment on the comments on Ikey Solomon? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Oct 11 - 11:53 PM Regarding Ikey Solomon and the character Fagin...I haven't read the book in question. It would have been a very different social climate with different attitudes when Dickens wrote his books. The mere fact that a Jewish character displays some bad character traits is not necessarily an attack on Jews per se. It is possible, after all, for people of bad character to belong to ANY ethnic or cultural group, isn't it? If so, it's possible to write about such a character without attacking everyone else in his ethnic or cultural or national group by association. Now, if one were to depict ALL Jews as having some sort of bad characteristics (as Hitler and Goebbels, for example, did), then it's definitely an attack on Jews in a general sense. If it's one character, it isn't necessarily an attack on Jews....but a depiction of a bad character, period. If we get to the point where we are literally afraid to depict ANY single member of some particular group of people as having a bad character...whether they be Jews, Blacks, Whites, Germans, Americans, Italians, Native Americans, or whatever the heck they are.....then I'd say we've painted ourselves into a very uncomfortable and unrealistic corner, and one that cannot be justified or sustained in the light of the whole human experience. A people do not become "perfect" or "above criticism" merely because they have suffered severe persecution at some point in their past history. That was, in fact, the kind of exclusive thinking that motivated the Nazis. They saw themselves as a very special people ("Aryans")...and a people who had been terribly persecuted by the Treaty of Versailles, the victorious Allies, and supposedly by Jews, Communists, etc. after WWI. Their exaggerated sense of their own historical martyrdom following WWI drove them to martyr other people in WWII to "even the score". It's not a wise precedent to follow, no matter who you are and no matter how badly your people suffered in the past. It usually leads to some other group of people being persecuted by the last victimized group, now that they've got the upper hand. The pain gets passed on, and a whole new set of historical martyrs is created. Presently their children go out and do it to someone else. (The sad history of Ireland is a prime example of that sort of thing.) Somewhere along the line someone has to have the sense not to react in that fashion if the chain of violence is ever to be broken. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: GUEST Date: 17 Oct 11 - 12:15 AM "BTW, as I've said before, Dickens took a real-life fence (Ikey Solomon) as inspiration. but he made the character loosely based on him a stereotype- unintentionally or not." Problem with that statement is that writer's of his quality do not do things by accident. It was intentional. Perhaps misdirected, but when he wrote it he meant it. True, he did broadside articles. He was, after all, a writer, and he had to make a living. 'Great Expectations' was just a cliff-hanger (we should all have cliffs like that from which to hang) and each week one could get the next installment for a half penny. At a young age I would go to the First Pres(byterian Church) to watch feature movies, but before each feature was a continuing chapter in Grade C movies: what would be denigrated by movie critics today as tripe because there was just plot: no character development, no setting to speak of, and certainly no theme. But as kids we were entranced by the hero hanging over a pit filled with tigers--despite the over-all setting being Africa, lord knows where in Africa, but the Dark Continent nevertheless--and despite there being no tigers in Africa. We knew that, but we suspended our 'belief' and got into the flick. After ten or so minutes the film would come to an end and the guy running the movie projector would suffer the 'slings and arrows of outrageous fortune' (boos, hisses and whatnot) and as the lights dimmed even further, we slunk deeper into our seats to prepare for the main event, not forgetting that NEXT week we would return to witness the horrible demise of our hero, only recently seen as soon-to-be lunch for ferocious cats with appetites greater than those we exorcised on popcorn, chips, candy bars and pop. The reality of writing is that sometimes a story is just a story. Other times it becomes an extended metaphor, and yet at others, a devastating exploration of the deeper shades in the bowels of 'man'. I think you have a wonderful idea. Write it. Remember the line from The G, the B and the U: If you're gonna shoot, shoot! Don't talk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: GUEST,999 Date: 17 Oct 11 - 12:16 AM That Guest was me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: GUEST,999 Date: 17 Oct 11 - 12:34 AM "statement is that writer's of his quality" Be the first to find the punctuation error in that and you win a week in NYC. Be the second and you win--yes, you guessed it--TWO weeks in NYC. (Where's Bonzo when ya really need him.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MGM·Lion Date: 17 Oct 11 - 12:49 AM Misplaced apostrophe. Please PM me for my address to send two {I insist my wife must come too} tickets, hotel bookings (either the Plaza or the Waldorf Astoria would be acceptable) &c, to NYC, which we both happen to love greatly. Mind you, it's an expensive place. I take your offer to include a few $k spending money also to make the most of what the City has to offer... ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: GUEST,999 Date: 17 Oct 11 - 01:23 AM Cheque's in the mail. BUT, you get ONE week only. (I should have remembered the damned Brits would be awake at this hour, and that you'd be one of them!) I love the place, too. Not the cockroaches, Michael, but the 'thing' it has. I hope to go once more, because I 'grew up' there, and I've missed its steadying influence ever since I left, left again, and left the last time. It would be one of this life's great pleasures to walk some of those streets in your company. I wish. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 17 Oct 11 - 01:55 AM I've just realised that "öliver Twist" is basically "Hansel and Gretel" without the cannibalism and set in urban England instead of Germany. I mean, just look: Kid(s) is abandoned/away from their parents/adult caretakers because of the adults' cruelty (in the pre-Grimms version it was the mother instead of the stepmother that convinced the father to abandon H&G) because of not having enough food. Some help leads the kid(s)to the house of a harmless-looking adult, who in reality plans to harm them. In the end, the kid(s)escape from the villain with a lot of money. So, I have had another idea for a long time. Combine Oliver Twist and Hansel and Gretel to create something original. And set it in America (I've always wanted to go to America, particularly NYC. Maybe someday I will) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 17 Oct 11 - 01:59 AM Oh yes, and with one kid instead of two. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 17 Oct 11 - 06:10 AM BTW, the real Ikey Solomon was apparently very religious- strange for someone whose career was organised crime! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Oct 11 - 07:53 AM "the real Ikey Solomon was apparently very religious" If Dickens had put that in, imagine the accusations of antisemitic stereotyping... .................. Certain types of religosity can go along with organised criminality quite comfortably. As a kind of insurance policy for example. Or you have the "social bandit" model, where the criminality is seen as a kind of justified rebellion, on behalf of a downtrodden community. Robin Hood needs Friar Tuck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: GUEST Date: 17 Oct 11 - 08:11 AM ...Oh yes, and with one kid instead of two. .. Shouldn't that be 1.6 kids and a dog? Sometimes stereotypes are so true. Remember the German flying the plane reading the instruction book in "Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines"? Bert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Oct 11 - 08:25 AM National/racial/religious/gender/etc stereotypes come in sets. The chances are most people resemble at least one out of the relevant set. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge Date: 17 Oct 11 - 11:03 AM I `ad one of them film directors in my cab once. `e wanted to go to Elstree Studios to finish off that Roman epic about gladiators. I said, " `ere Cecil. As a matter of interest do you change things when you`re re-telling a story on film?" `e said, " Too true, we do sometimes, Jim. When the Barbers Union got wind of us doing the first "Sweeny Todd" film they went ape demanding changes. They claimed they would all be tarred with the same brush and go broke so instead of being a barber and slitting throats old Sweeny ran a stray dogs `ome and made `is pies from them!!" Whaddam I Like?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 17 Oct 11 - 05:15 PM McGrath of Harlow, do you mean that some religious people are in organised crime because it fits? And I don't know if you were being serious, but why would Dickens making Fagin religious make it more anti-Semitic? Dickens already was being accused of promoting anti-Semitism by even portraying Fagin . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Oct 11 - 05:28 PM It might not "fit", but it's never been that unusual for successful criminals to give money to good causes, including religious charities etc. Blood money, PR, insurance... I'm sure that if Fagin had been presented as a pious and actively religious Jew, at the same time as running his fencing and thieving organisation, that would been seen as a direct attack on Judaism as such. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 17 Oct 11 - 05:32 PM Okay, so the question for me is "Can I/is it possible to portary Fagin as closer to Ikey Solomon than Dickens' portrayal without coming off as anti-Semitic?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 17 Oct 11 - 09:23 PM *Portray* |
