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BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?

GUEST,999 28 Oct 11 - 10:05 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 28 Oct 11 - 06:24 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 28 Oct 11 - 06:47 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 28 Oct 11 - 07:16 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 28 Oct 11 - 07:17 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 28 Oct 11 - 07:19 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 28 Oct 11 - 10:39 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 28 Oct 11 - 11:00 PM
GUEST,999 28 Oct 11 - 11:06 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 28 Oct 11 - 11:11 PM
GUEST,999 28 Oct 11 - 11:14 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 28 Oct 11 - 11:17 PM
MGM·Lion 28 Oct 11 - 11:25 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 29 Oct 11 - 01:10 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 29 Oct 11 - 01:52 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 29 Oct 11 - 05:56 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 29 Oct 11 - 09:37 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 29 Oct 11 - 10:54 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 30 Oct 11 - 01:53 AM
MGM·Lion 30 Oct 11 - 02:41 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 30 Oct 11 - 04:02 AM
MGM·Lion 30 Oct 11 - 04:11 AM
GUEST,999 30 Oct 11 - 04:32 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 30 Oct 11 - 05:10 AM
GUEST,999 30 Oct 11 - 06:04 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Oct 11 - 09:20 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 30 Oct 11 - 05:38 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 30 Oct 11 - 09:56 PM
GUEST,999 30 Oct 11 - 10:07 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 31 Oct 11 - 02:24 AM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Oct 11 - 08:16 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 31 Oct 11 - 10:28 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 01 Nov 11 - 04:49 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 01 Nov 11 - 09:33 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 02 Nov 11 - 06:39 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 02 Nov 11 - 09:26 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 03 Nov 11 - 04:12 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 03 Nov 11 - 04:27 AM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Nov 11 - 07:46 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 03 Nov 11 - 08:10 AM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Nov 11 - 04:47 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 03 Nov 11 - 04:49 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 03 Nov 11 - 05:22 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 03 Nov 11 - 05:47 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 03 Nov 11 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,999 03 Nov 11 - 05:56 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 03 Nov 11 - 06:18 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 03 Nov 11 - 07:01 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 03 Nov 11 - 07:09 PM
GUEST 03 Nov 11 - 07:19 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 10:05 AM

ME1: Michael (MtheGM) has much depth in matters folk. He's an accomplished writer and researcher, as a btw.

I'm curious as to where you 'see' the story going. Whatever the end tale, it will likely have to be informed by social histories of the time in which you set the tale and histories of the times in 'flashbacks' or glimpses into the past. Do you have ideas along those lines as yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 06:24 PM

Refresh. Well, Bruce I don't know what you mean- can you clarify it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 06:47 PM

And btw I made another post (in response to MtheGM's suggestion of VDL as a generic name for Australia) on the fact that I've only ever heard of Van Diemen's Land as meaning Tasmania. But I don't know if MtheGM caught that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 07:16 PM

BTW, can you clarify the last sentence of your post? As to where I see the story going... well it's steampunk, science fiction/fantasy with Victorian era elements. It's a very loose reworking of Oliver Twist In the Victorian era/19th century, as many fences were kidsmen and baby-farming wa a common method of caring for an unwanted child, and resulted in notorious murders,(although there is no record of this), a fence/kidsman and a baby farmer could team up together to care for street children and train them as petty criminals- after all, it was very unlikely that the children's parents would be able to trace them, if I'm not wrong .


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 07:17 PM

EDIT: "and"


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 07:19 PM

"was"


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 10:39 PM

Refresh


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 11:00 PM

Btw, are you still interested in getting the play text?


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 11:06 PM

Does a chicken have lips?


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 11:11 PM

I'll take that as a no, unless that's a trick question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 11:14 PM

It was a joke. Canadian by nature. YES!


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 11:17 PM

Ok, I found an article but I'll post the link later.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 11:25 PM

Morwen ~~ Thank you; yes, I did catch your VDL clarification, both here & on that other thread on VDL.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 01:10 AM

For 999, here is the article: "Drama of Van Diemën's Land". It isn't the whole play, just extracts. There's no full online text of the play, but he NLA does have a copy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 01:52 AM

BTW, 999 and MtheGM, this is probably unsurprising to you but from searching the NLA Trove website, I discovered that Isaac (Ikey) Solomon's papers (i.e. his letters, probably very private and interesting),are kept at the Australian Jewish Historical Society's Library.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 05:56 AM

Refresh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 09:37 PM

BTW, found a link on Dickens and accusations of anti-Semitism and racism: Charles Dickens: Allegations of anti-Semitism and racism


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 10:54 PM

And,999, could you please clarify the last sentence of your 28 Oct 11 10: 05 post?


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 01:53 AM

Refresh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 02:41 AM

... In his *next novel, Our Mutual Friend, he created the character of Riah (meaning "friend" in Hebrew), whose goodness, Vallely writes, is almost as complete as Fagin's evil...

Morwen: This from the wiki link you give above is not accurate [as wiki entries often are not]: OMF was not CD's '*next' novel, but the last ever published apart from the unfinished Edwin Drood, while OT was the first apart from Pickwick Papers, which many Dickensians regard as more of a series of comic sketches than a true novel. So CD's grief at the offence he had occasioned was not as urgent as to have required the sort of instant atonement the wiki writer seems rather romantically to have foisted on him, but was made after a whole long career, a gap of 26 successful years.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 04:02 AM

So, it took him 26 years to do that...


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 04:11 AM

Yep ~ Oliver Twist published 1838; Our Mutual Friend 1864-65.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 04:32 AM

Morning to you out there in VDL and you out there in England from me out there in Canada.

A thing to grasp about Dickens is that he wrote for a living. Stereotypes are a fast way to grab people's imaginations because playing to the prejudices of readers is a quick way to engage them. Great Expectations for example: CD was one week ahead of his readers. The story was I think serialized for weekly publication. He didn't write it in a 'single sitting' as was the case with some of his tales.

I saw a comedic skit years back (Dr Who?) in which an English Occidental was sitting beside an Asian Oriental. A third party reading from a small piece of paper looked at the duo and addressed the Oriental: "Dr Wu I assume." The Occidental spoke up saying, "I am Dr Wu. He is Dr Smith."


Thank you for the link, ME1.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 05:10 AM

You're welcome. but I thought OT was published in 1837?


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 06:04 AM

"time and place written · 1837–38, London

date of first publication · Published in serial form between February 1837 and April 1839; first book edition published in November 1838

publisher · First published serially in Bentley's Miscellany, a periodical edited by Dickens"


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 09:20 AM

It's worth noticing that in the text Charles Dickens used for "Sikes and Nancy", the presentation of which was a major part of his enormously popular public performances right up to his death, Fagin is never referred to as "the Jew", and there is no mention whatsoever of his being Jewish.

Dickens was well aware that this aspect of Oliver Twist was one which risked encouraging something he did in truth not wish to encourage, antagonism towards Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 05:38 PM

Refresh. Thanks for the information. 999, can I ask you agin to clarify your post on this page?


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 09:56 PM

Thanks for the clarification.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 10:07 PM

You are welcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 02:24 AM

BTW, you might be intersted in knowing that Ikey Solomon is said to have used a tobacco store he established in Hobart as a front.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 08:16 AM

This thread set me to re-read Oliver Twist. In the course of which I was reminded that, while Fagin gets hung (on very questionable evidence), the Artful Dodger is evidently transported to Australia. Just as happened to the real Ikey Solomon.

Now that would make for an interesting story. I think young Jack Dawkins might have have done rather well down under. If he lived, that is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 10:28 PM

btw, (spoiler) my version will be told in diary format (implausible) by the Artful Dodger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 04:49 AM

Refresh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 09:33 PM

OK, so what about racial slurs, if say I have a character referring to himself using the n-word?


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 06:39 AM

Refresh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 09:26 PM

Anyone want to continue this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 04:12 AM

BTW, I feel that if Dickens had given Fagin a Jewish female accomplice on the model of Ann Solomon (Ikey's wife) the story would be very different; it would be two fences exploiting children, instead of only one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 04:27 AM

And it would mean that Nancy would not be the only underworld female character in "Oliver Twist".


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 07:46 AM

Obviously Dickens could have written a different book with different characters. Alongside all the other books with different characters.

There is actually very little similarity between the real Ikey Solomon and Fagin. There is nothing to suggest that Fagin was modelled on him. Ikey was a fence in the East End, and he was Jewish. So was Fagin (though fencing as such was only part of his crim9inal activities.) But the indications are that to have an East End fence who was not Jewish at that time would have been a bit implausible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 08:10 AM

Actually, I think that in the book (if I remember it correctly) Fagin's den that Oliver stays at was located in Field Lane in Little Saffron Hill, in Central/Greater London,not really in the East End , but there's another one mentioned in the book that was in Whitechapel, which is in the East End . Ikey Solomon "had a shop in Bell Lane, Spitalfields, in the vicinity of Petticoat Lane", which is part of the Whitechapel area, or near it, according to my research. And I think it would be interesting toahve Fagin be more like Ikey Solomon. In my opinion, there's a mistake in the title of this thread- should've been "reworkings" rather than "retellings". A "retelling" is when a writer takes a story or aprt of a story and changes the language, but keeps the plot, charcters etc. A "reworking" is when you take the plot or themes and create something new.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 04:47 PM

Might be fun to have a sort of sequel to Oliver Twist, with the Artful Dodger tying up with the real Ikey Solomon after being transported.   You could have Ikey's disparaging comments on Fagin...


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 04:49 PM

*to have*
*part*


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 05:22 PM

The hardest thing to write in a transportation story would be the convicts' racist attitudes. Most of the White convicts (and free settlers) on ships were racist towards the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people they encountered, and a non-racist White person might treat an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander person slightly better than the average, but they would seem racist to a 21st century person.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 05:47 PM

McGrath of Harlow, I also said in a few posts that Ikey could've been a kidsman as well. It wasn't uncommon for fences to teach children to steal for them- easy and convenient as they would have an accessible source of suppliers, and Ikey is said to have controlled all of London's gangs at one time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 05:50 PM

Not saying that means that Fagin was absolutely based on him, of course, but it could be a reason why so many people identify him with the character. And then there is also his trial- a great sensation, which is an understatement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 05:56 PM

"OK, so what about racial slurs, if say I have a character referring to himself using the n-word?"

I think that sort of thing can be handled appropriately. However, the test I would put it to as a Chinese-Australian (or Australian-Chinese) is fairly simple.

If you read a story referring to 'chinks' or 'slants', how would that make you perceive the writer or the writer's intent? And more importantly, how would it make you feel inside?

Answer that and you answer your question, imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 06:18 PM

This didn't take; so I will try and post it again. My answer to the question is that it would depend on the writer's intent; whether or not they were trying to represent a clearly racist character.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 07:01 PM

BTW, Ikey and his wife were in their twenties when they got married. JJ Tobias, in his book "The Prince Of Fences", says Ann/Hannah (the names "Ann" and "Hannah" are pronounced pretty much the same way in a h-dropping Cockney accent, or so I think: "Hannah" would be "'Annah", which could be "Hann"/Ann" for short) was born approximately 1786.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 07:09 PM

And Nancy is an old nickname for Ann... but I'm pretty sure that's just a coincidence!


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 07:19 PM

I understand, Grasshopper. But allow me to continue.

How would your antecedents from the Chinese side of your family feel/react were you to write using the terms chink or slant in reference to Chinese people?

Words carry baggage, and that's why they can create stereotypes so succinctly.

Few people have ever heard of Ng Moi, despite her having been one of the world's great martial artists. However, everyone has heard of Bruce Lee, another great top-ten.

A little known story: when the casting was taking place for the movie and subsequent TV show Kung Fu, Master Lee was refused the role because he had a Chinese accent. Instead, they chose David Carradine (born John Arthur Carradine) because he spoke English (on occasion with Chinese 'intonations' in the movie and series). Hard to believe that Cato from the Green Hornet was seconded to Mr Carradine, but he was.

You will do as you do, and no, you have no responsibility for other people's interpretation of your motive or intent, but regardless, in the final analysis, you will live with your decision(s) as do we all.

Best wishes to you.


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