Palestine (continuation)

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 06:09 AM

From Wiki.
Israel's stated aim was to stop rocket fire into Israel[40] and arms import into the Gaza strip.[

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 05:52 AM

Jim, IT WAS the stated reason for the incursion.


show me one occasion that you have acknowledged the horrific injuries it can and has caused to humen beings
Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 03:21 AM
.
.

I have never denied that smoke munitions can cause injury, and said its use here was deplorable and possibly illegal.
Don pointed out that a direct hit, or a few feet away, will cause serious injuries.
Conventional munitions are effective over a much greater range.
WP smoke would not be deployed to cause casualties because it would cause vastly less casualties than conventional weapons.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 05:13 AM

"That was Israel's stated reason for the incursion."
The American report above (which again - you appear not to have read when it is put out for you) points out that it is not as simple as that.
You have argued the right of the Israelis to defend themselves - but not the Palastinians apparently
The Israelis are the aggressors - the statistics alone show that, and the atrocities - which you have denied, and continue to do so.
You are attempting to clain that peace would be arrived at if the Palestinians ceased their resistance - "throw down your peashooters and come out with your hands up!"
What would prevent the Israelis from shifting them all to the nearest toxic rubbish dump as they have the Bedouin families? - oh, I forgot - you claim that haven't done that either, didn't you - leftie propaganda wasn't it?
"It is a LIE that I have EVER described it as harmless! "
You and Terrapin have consistantly argued it to be non-chemical and smoke producing - , show me one occasion that you have acknowledged the horrific injuries it can and has caused to humen beings - including children and hospital patients.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 04:07 AM

No - the UN has stated that it could be illegal - you have described it as harmless

Are you denying that I have stated, many times, that it could have been illegal?

It is a LIE that I have EVER described it as harmless!

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 04:04 AM

The report says differently - do you have any evidence on this?
That was Israel's stated reason for the incursion.
What report are you talking about Jim?

Being a fair-minded person, it is impossible to find anywhere on this thread one single example of your accepting wrongdoing on the part of the Palestinians.

You initiated the debate with the Palestinian case, and only the Palestinian case, every time.
Obviously I will respond with the other side of the argument, because I am fair minded and unprejudiced.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 03:44 AM

"The incursion was solely in response the the Gazan missile offensive."
The report says differently - do you have any evidence on this?
Te only "evidence" here is that you are six times more likely to be killed if you are Palestinian than if you are if you are Israeli - simple mathematics.
"it is extremely difficult to give that statement the slightest credence."
Being a fair-minded it is impossible to find anywhere on this thread one single example of your accepting wrongdoing on the part of the Israelis; massacres, armed incursions on built-up areas, attempts to starve into submission, ghettoisition, mass eviction to toxic rubbish-dumps, the use of deadly chemical weapons, the slaughter and endangerment of civilian "hostages", the killing of aid-workers, attributing the bringing of relief, daily persecution and humiliation of an entire population, the confiscation of taxes essential to maintaining essentials, the sezure and destruction of homes...... you have either actively defended and justified all of these, claimed they haven't happenned or have given them your nod of approval by your silence.
Now that's what I call being even-handed and fair!!!!!!!
"stated it could have been illegal"
No - the UN has stated that it could be illegal - you have described it as harmless
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 01:59 AM

Jim, most of those Palestinian deaths occurred during the Gaza incursion.
Israel only, reluctantly, embarked on that, having forced out all its settlers and withdrawn.
The incursion was solely in response the the Gazan missile offensive.
So who was to blame?

The heavy civilian casualties were only incurred because Hamas, illegally, placed military facilities in civilian areas and chose not to evacuate them.
So who was to blame?

Israel was careful to act within the law by issuing warnings and taking all possible steps to minimise civilian deaths.
(Don, I deplored their use of WP smoke in a civilian area and stated it could have been illegal.)

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 01:10 AM

Don, remember that on this and previous thread, every issue other than what the threads were supposed to be about, was raised by Jim Carroll.
So, when I responded, the Palestinian case had already been put far better than I could ever put it, and the Israeli case not at all.

Being the fair minded person you say you are, how could you possibly object to me redressing the balance, and why am I the only one criticised for being one sided?

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 05:37 PM

""Don.
my opinion that both sides bear blame for the events under discussion.

That is my opinion too Don.""

Based upon your previous posts to this thread, it is extremely difficult to give that statement the slightest credence.

Nowhere have you admitted to any single wrong action on the part of the Israelis, in fact the complete opposite.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 03:51 PM

Casualty figures since 2000 - to date.
Palestinians = 6,537
Israelis = 1,092
Jim Carroll

American news reports repeatedly describe Israeli military attacks against the Palestinian population as "retaliation." However, when one looks into the chronology of death in this conflict, the reality turns out to be quite different.
Source: B'Tselem, The Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories. (Visit their statistics page, last updated September 30, 2011.)
The numbers cited above include civilians and combatants killed by members of the opposing nationality (and therefore, do not include Palestinians killed by an explosive device that they set or was on their person, Israelis killed in 'friendly fire' incidents, etc.). The numbers also do not include the sizable number of Palestinians who died as a result of inability to reach medical care due to Israeli road closures, curfews, the Israeli closure of border crossing from Gaza, etc.
The figure for Palestinian deaths is extremely conservative, since it is difficult for B'Tselem to report on deaths in the Palestinian territories. The Palestine Red Crescent Society, internationally respected for its statistical rigor, reports significantly higher numbers of Palestinian deaths. We do not doubt the reliability of their data, and only use B'Tselem's more conservative numbers because they collect data on both populations.
In the past we used the statistics provided by Israel's military for the number of Israelis killed, but they have not updated their statistics page since early in 2006. In addition, there is reason to believe that their numbers may have been somewhat inflated.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 03:18 PM

I have views of my own, and express them here.
Not about BP culture though.
I know nothing about that.

I have done no somersault. I have expressed the view that neither side is blameless before.

And, I have not adapted any claim.
That is what I have always said.

To reiterate,
You know well who the 5 sources were.
They each stated, separately, in their own words, that that specific offending by British Pakistanis was driven by British Pakistani culture.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 02:27 PM

"have no problem with differences of views on anything. "
You apparently have no views of your own - you hide behind the opinions of others
"That is my opinion too Don."
And you've just done the most amazing somersault - well done!!!
And you still haven't produced your quote - though you have adapted your claim to;
"They each stated, separately, in their own words,"
WE are getting there!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 12:42 PM

I have no problem with differences of views on anything.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 12:30 PM

Jim is not a sad obsessed little man, he has a different opinion to you re israel and palestine.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 07:45 PM

Don.
my opinion that both sides bear blame for the events under discussion.

That is my opinion too Don.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 07:28 PM

No "selective memory" Jim.
I made no claims, outrageous or otherwise.
You made the claims. I just challenged them.
That is what was "outrageous" to you.

You think we need to discuss the Pakistani issue at greater length and not privately.
You are a sad, obsessed man.
You know well who the 5 sources were.
They each stated, separately, in their own words, that that specific offending by British Pakistanis was driven by British Pakistani culture.
Not something I knew about, but you would need a good reason not to believe them.
No-one has provided one, and no contradictions were ever published.
I provided the links and pasted extracts from each in the thread.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 01:29 PM

""At least you and Lox refused to defend the Gaza rockets, but that was the only criticism I can remember you making either.
Please correct me if I have forgotten anything Don.""

Your lack of memory may in fact be due to your self admitted refusal to read any post which has more than a couple of soundbites.

I have repeatedly stated throughout this, and other, threads on the subject, my opinion that both sides bear blame for the events under discussion.

You just didn't bother to read them because you are right (in your own mind), so anything anyone else has to say is of no importance to you.

So just stop lying, and if you can't be arsed to read our comments, kindly refrain from making them up.

Don T

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 12:39 PM

"It was claimed publicly."
Produce your quote
"I can't remember making any claims at all."
Selective amnesia again
""Racist" is a vile and ugly name, but I was thinking of "Zionist little shit."
In the present atmosphere - former in Britain, latter in Palestine - both racism and Zionism are far uglier.
We've spent a long time here discussing what a Zionist extremist state is doing to an impoverished Third World people - you have defended those atrocities throughout.
The individual I made my comment to had just called me a liar - having had his answer in full, and having previously suggested that Palestinians had no right to be in Palestine in the first place - what would you call him - (or, thinking about it, you probably agree with him).
Whatever noble causes Zionism may have once espoused, todays mob seem to have reduced it to the persecution of a Third World People - and it is this that you and Brucie have been supporting - I make no apologies for expressing my contempt for both of you.
Racism:
Regarding your own ugly statement accusing "every male Pakistani.... (I'm sure you remember the rest).
Have you any idea what effect it would have on members of the poorest ethinic community in Britain if it were to be taken seriously?
You claim to have been a teacher (god save us all)
Would you tell a Pakistani pupil he was likely to grow up a potential pervert because of his "cultural implant"?
Would you warn the rest of the class to steer clear of him because of the potential danger he posed to your female pupils?
Such inflamatory racist accusations are aimed at incitement to hatred and persecution - ask any non-white family who has has shit (or petrol) pushed through their letter-box, or a brick through the window, or whose children can't walk the streets unprotected. Ask the family of Stephen Lawrence whose parents are still trying to get justice for their murdered son (after 14 years of racist indifference by an "institutionally racist" justice system).
Immigrants to Britain have enough to cope with from knuckles-along-the-floor thugs without having armchair Paki-bashers like yourself egging them on by dehumanising them in the way your outrageously racist statement does.
Perhaps in future you might put what passes for a brain into gear and consider the damage such outrageously inflamatory statements have on the lives of helpless people.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 11:53 AM

If you had claimed it publicly elsewhere you would have been banged up for inciting race hatred.

It was claimed publicly.
It was in all the media, or I would not have known about it.
I just repeated it here.

(or even adimit to) your outrageous claims
I do not admit any such.
I can't remember making any claims at all.
I just challenged yours.

"Racist" is a vile and ugly name, but I was thinking of "Zionist little shit."

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 08:02 AM

"the Palestinian case."
The Palestinians are the ones under attack - for their land - the world has opposed the Israeli behaviour
"and you denigrate their personal character."
No I don't - if they tell lies I say they have told lies; if they make racist statements I say that is racist - you have cositently done both.
I do get angry when you don't bother to read what others have to say (still you don't deny it - and when you attempt to justify human rights abuses and war crimes - which again, you have consistently.
You insist in being prominent in these debates yet you continually refuse to take responsibility for (or even adimit to) your outrageous claims
If you believe that being called a racist is a vile, ugly name (as I do) I ferely admit having done so - because I believe that inyour case it is true.
A little honesty on your part instead of blaming others for your sordid statements might help your claim of being a victim - as you appear to be claiming here.
Last time on this thread the claim that the male gender of an entire ethnic community is culturally tainted is thoughrouly evil and comes out of the "How to be a Good Nazi" handbook - you claimed it as your opinion - nobody else said it, and it makes you a racist. If you had claimed it publicly elsewhere you would have been banged up for inciting race hatred.
I leave you to nurse your hurt feelings.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 04:11 AM

"Israel is the aggressor"
I would say it is an aggressor, but not the only aggressor.
The Gaza rockets were not in "retaliation" but in hate.
They were aimed at ordinary Jews and their children, not soldiers or "Zionists."

Every issue here, beyond the UN membership the thread was supposed to be about, was raised by you and you put only the Palestinian case.

An open minded, unprejudiced person would welcome the case for the other side being put.
But not you.
It makes you angry to be asked to justify a claim, or to show that it is disputed.
If anyone challenges any claim, you call them by vile, ugly names, and you denigrate their personal character.
In my opinion, that makes you something less than a decent human being.

But, I accept that there are two sides to every argument.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 03:12 AM

Nobody has excused the killing of civilians here anywhare - except you - you are the one who has distorted, denied and supported the killing of civiliand THE ONLY ONE
What I and others have said is that, abhorrent as the rockets are, in the circumstances created by Israeli expansionist aggression, the terrorist retaliation is an inevitable consequence. ISRAEL IS THE AGGRESSOR - A WELL ARMED, WELL TRAINED FORCE ATTEMPTING TO SUPPRESS OPPOSITION TO ITS TERRITORIAL EXPANSIONISM, AND FULLY PREPARED TO USE THAT TRAINING AND THOSE WEAPONS ON ANYBODY WHO OPPOSES IT - MILITARY OR CIVILIAN,

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 01:51 AM

All others in this discussion have expressed views which take in the presence of blame on both sides.

Can you point me at any post where Jim even suggests Palestinians are blameworthy for anything at all.

At least you and Lox refused to defend the Gaza rockets, but that was the only criticism I can remember you making either.
Please correct me if I have forgotten anything Don.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:12 PM

""You put up a one sided view of that issue, as with all the other issues involving Israel.

I just pointed out some flaws and provided a broader view, as I hope I have with the other issues too.""

Another terminological inexactitude Keith!

All others in this discussion have expressed views which take in the presence of blame on both sides.

YOU, and you alone, have presented an utterly unremitting one sided view.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:05 PM

""If Israel is being demonized for it, I do think the comparison should at least be acknowledged Don.""

Acknowledged?........... YES!!

Used to absolve one side or the other from blame entirely (which is what you are doing) on the grounds that they are not the worst .......NO!!

Nowhere have you admitted, or even hinted, that Israel bears any guilt whatever for its treatment of Palestinians or Bedouins.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 04:15 PM

let's cover that one up" file, or do you intend to persist with that particularly nasty piece of persecution-defence.

You put up a one sided view of that issue, as with all the other issues involving Israel.

I just pointed out some flaws and provided a broader view, as I hope I have with the other issues too.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 03:16 PM

"Do you ever get cross about that Jim?"
My introduction to man's inhumanity to man was in hearing stories of the Holocaust from my uncle (who was a decorated war hero who was among those to entered concentration camps when the Nazis fled)
There is something deeply distressing when the persecuted become the persecuters.
It is you and you alone who has defended inhumanity, the killing and maiming of civilians, by ignoring it, by trivialising it, by disputing that it happened and by suggesting that it is acceptable because others do it.
It is what is happening in Palestine that is under discussion at the moment - of course you can travel the globe and find exploitation, injustice and persecution - want to open a thread about atrocities and war crimes by Britain, the US, Russia, former Yugoslavia, Uganda, Syria.... but do not attempt to justify terrorism, human rights abuses, war crimes.... because they happen elsewhere.
Israel is a powerful terrorist state with a disregard for national boundries when it suits them and a proven contempt for and abuser of human rights.
The fact that it is strongly influenced by religious fanatics - and is a nuclear power - should be of concern to us all (the same goes for Iran BTW.)
As far as I'm concerned, all such states can go to their own chosen hell in a handcart, as long as they don't take the rest of us with them,
Most people on this thread have confined their arguments to human rights abuses against non-combatants - you and you alone have defended those abuses with lies, distortions and simply by denying or ignoring the facts placed before you - though why people should bother is beyond me - you don't read what people write (you don't even deny it - cou can't - it's been pointed out to you so often) and complain when somebody posts anything bigger than a sound-bite.
Can we now assume that the ill-treatment of the Bedouins has been removed from your "let's cover that one up" file, or do you intend to persist with that particularly nasty piece of persecution-defence.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:02 PM

so long as Israel isn't treating them quite as badly as others in the region?

If Israel is being demonized for it, I do think the comparison should at least be acknowledged Don.

Have we ever got round to discussion the time restriction put on Palestinians going abroad who lose their citizenship if they overstay their limit

I can give no comparison here.
It has already happened to all the Jews in the surrounding countries.
Do you ever get cross about that Jim?
(rhetorical question again)

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 11:51 AM

".... vast cut and paste.....;."
Do you really have so much trouble with the English language Keith - no wonder you are as every bit as ignorant as you claim.
"Palestinian Authority would be no better for them"
A single matter of opinion, but so what - one group of abusers does not excuse another - you've already tried this one in your defence of abuse (Egypt last time I think).
No-one else has attempted to move them to where they are being poisoned. You claimed that Bedouins were well treated by the Israelis (you claimed it to be "the main plank to my argument, which you have disproved)- you have your proof and yet still you fail to acknowledge that they are not - where's all this "fairness" you keep claiming you have and the rest of us don't?
Have we ever got round to discussion the time restriction put on Palestinians going abroad who lose their citizenship if they overstay their limit - perhaps you have an excuse for this too.
You still have not accepted one single abuse carried out by the Israelis (the subject under discussion) - NOT ONE - unbiased my arse!!
Don is right - it isn't about winning - not with us anyway - it's about sharing information and opinions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 11:40 AM

'Mike - I have not singleed the Israelis out for special treatment - I waws born in a period when people were being gassed for what they were and have always had a horror of ity happening again - put it down to poor upbringing if you like - it's obviously not a view you share.'
Jim Carroll ~~~

Yes I do. What have I said that makes it 'obvious' that I don't, eh?

~M~

You are not a bully really, Jim; for all I said last time. I think that in fact you are a great big tease & saucebox!

So Teehee & LoL, then ~

~M~

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 11:25 AM

""Note that not one single Bedouin is serving in the army of Egypt.
Note that Egyptian Bedouin are denied rights of citizenship and employment and education enjoyed by Bedouin Israelis.
Note that no journalists ever make an issue of their predicament.""

Do we take it, then, that in your estimation Israel's behaviour toward its Bedouin community is perfectly acceptable, so long as Israel isn't treating them quite as badly as others in the region?

That is what you are saying, and it seems to me a very dangerous concept.


""Listen to what the Bedouin Israelis say, not to all your Israel bashing journos.""

So far Keith, you actually have just one Israeli Bedouin who is talking down the mistreatment of his own people.

You can find one Lord Haw-Haw in any nation. Jim has found many more Bedouins who are against it, yet you dismiss them out of hand.

Your witnesses (so-called) are always more believable than anybody else's aren't they..............BUT ONLY TO YOU!

Doesn't that tell you something about the way you try to win every debate regardless of truth?

Don T.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 10:49 AM

That vast cut and paste also featured in your first post Jim.

Look at some Google images of the Jabal dump at Bethany, Jerusalem.
It is an ordinary household waste dump found in any town, is surrounded by homes and offices and is walking distance from the holiest sites of Jerusalem.
Some Palestinians are saying that they should be allowed to live where the Bedouin are.

The Bedouin interviewed in your cut and paste acknowledges that a Palestinian Authority would be no better for them.
In your other pasted acreage it clearly states that Egyptian and Jordanian Bedouin all have the same complaints, so why single out Israel Jim?
(Rhetorical question. I know why you do it!)

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 10:21 AM

What the hell - he's bound to claim it as Leftie propagande - so from the Leftie Irish Times
Jim Carroll

The Irish Times - Wednesday, September 21, 2011
BEDOUIN PEOPLE ISRAEL WANTS TO RELOCATE TO FORMER DUMP
MICHAEL JANSEN IN KHAN AL-AHMAR
WE SET out from Jerusalem on Route One, Israel's fine new West Bank highway, turn off on to the narrow shoulder, plunge down a steep ravine along a slithery, sandy track, duck under a tunnel and climb to the hilltop where 20 Jahaleen Bedouin families have settled. To the right is the school that proudly proclaims itself a "primary mixed school" where 70 boys and girls study through sixth form.
During break, boys in blue T-shirts and jeans wrestle and rush about while girls in grey and white smocks, their hair neatly plaited, stroll round in threes and fours sharing packets of crisps.
The school consists of five one- storey buildings constructed by the men of the community using old tyres and plastered with mud. Here and there they left indented patches where tyre treads are exposed. The sixth and final form holds classes in a shed.
The UN Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa), which looks after Palestinian refugees, paid salaries to the men who worked 24 hours a day for a month to build the school with the help of Italian volunteers, nuns from Bethany, Rabbis for Human Rights, Israel's Peace Now movement and the Israeli Committee against Home Demolitions.
The school walls are thick, which means the rooms are cool in summer and warm in winter. A small generator stands idle near the latrine building: the Bedouin do not have $30 a month to run the motor.
On the other side of the fence marking the boundary of the school yard and just outside the window of the first-form classroom, the Israelis have placed vents for gas emitted by sewage piped to Route One from Kafr Adumim, the expanding Israeli settlement and outposts looming on the crests of hills rising high above Khan al-Ahmar. Israeli settlers have filed a petition for the school to be demolished.
The Jahaleen stopped sending smaller children to schools in Jericho because five of them were killed on the road while waiting for a bus. In any case, families can no longer afford fares.
After the new school was built in 2010, Israel cancelled work permits for the menfolk who had menial jobs in the settlements, depriving them of their main source of income. Only the shepherd has work these days.
Unemployment is 99.99 per cent. Jahaleen men, women and children are slender and of medium height, and are totally dependent on Unrwa for sustenance. Some children have been stunted by malnutrition.
The tidy, elegant school buildings contrast starkly with the shelters where 160 members of the community live. These are ramshackle dwellings constructed on wooden frames, with walls of press board and cloth, and roofed with plastic in summer and metal sheets in winter. Israel has issued demolition orders for eight shelters, several livestock pens, and the makeshift mosque – built without permits which Israel does not grant.
The community lives in a tight enclave, bordered by the highway and the wadi below where the community's remaining 140 goats and sheep water.
Spokesman Abu Khamis, an accountant who was employed as a bulldozer driver, invites us to his diwan. Slipping off our shoes, we sit on mattresses in the shade of a mulberry tree. Kafr Adumim with its settler houses gleaming white under red tile roofs sits on the horizon. A cool breeze stirs the leaves of the the mulberry, its twin and a pomegranate, heavy with ripening fruit.
As sweet tea is served, Abu Khamis says, "We get water legally from Israel's Makarot company. Ten families have a supply, 10 do not."
Asked about power, he quips, "Is there something called electricity? We use the generator when we have a feast, wedding or funeral . . . Settlers come any time, day or night. Drive around, walk into the school and our houses. They sing or throw pebbles at our homes, waking us. The children scream and cry. Many wet their beds."
He shrugged when asked if the Palestinian leadership's bid for UN membership and recognition of statehood in East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza could improve conditions.
"The sulta [the Palestinian Authority] and the Israelis co-operate against us."
The Jahaleen of Khan al-Ahmar are just one of 20 Bedouin communities, totalling 2,300 people, whom the Israelis intend to relocate to Jerusalem's vast rubbish dump at Bethany, the home of Lazarus raised by Jesus from the dead.
On the way back to the holy city, we pause at the dump where bulldozers have already buried the rubbish and levelled the site, which still reeks of toxic fumes.
To the east is the massive Israeli settlement of Maale Adumim, to the west Jerusalem, both forbidden to the Jahaleen. The move will destroy their way
of life, force them to sell their livestock and compel traditional tribal antagonists to live together.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 10:10 AM

"Are YOU claiming that all Bedouin Israelis are being forced to live near this dump, or are hundreds more being created for them all?"
I've given you the articles - I make no claim beyond what they say - you have written them off as leftie propaganda - is that still your claim
As you will see from one of the articles, the Israeli government has abandoned the building project agreed with the Bedouin leaders - so much for re-housing
The Bedouins have been shifted to a site next to a rubbish dump - exclusively selected for them - READ THE ARTICLES
The rubbish dumps here have been cited asd being toxic and of causing illness among those living here.

You started off claiming that mistreatment of the Bedouins was acceptable because they recieved worse treatment elswhere.
Then you moved on to they were well treated and reports to the contrary were "leftie Lies".
Now you appear to be claiming that moving people near a toxic site is not harmful and that the Beduoins are perfectly happy.
You really need to get your story straight - which is it to be?
Apart from anything else the wholsale movement of communities without their having a say in the matter is chillingly reminiscent of what has happened in the past - these are people, not pawns in a chess game - and no -.
And no Mike - I have not singleed the Israelis out for special treatment - I waws born in a period when people were being gassed for what they were and have always had a horror of ity happening again - put it down to poor upbringing if you like - it's obviously not a view you share.
Jim Carroll

As Keith seems to be incapable of reading evidernce placed before him - one more time regarding the "happy Bedouins - from the "leftie Economist, you will have to read the rest of the articles on the toxic waste dump yourself I'm afraid, but should you find this too difficult I'll happily put these up too.

Palestine's Bedouin
We want recognition too
The Bedouin under Israeli rule have begun to campaign for their rights
Nov 5th 2011 | WADI NAAM | from the print edition
Correction to this article
THE Bedouin of Israel are not a happy lot. Once nomadic lords, Binyamin Netanyahu's government plans to pen tens of thousands of them into cities. This may be Israel's biggest removal of Arabs from the land since the 1948 war.
In this section
In the Israeli-occupied West Bank, soldiers knock down their shacks with abandon. Plans are afoot to transfer some 2,000 to the edge of a rubbish dump to make way for more Jewish settlers east of Jerusalem. To cap it all, religious Jews recently torched a mosque in Tuba, a Bedouin town in the north-east of Israel.
Traditionally split into often feuding clans, the nomads have been easy for Israel to divide, conquer, shift and, at least in the Israeli state's early days, expel. Whole tribes of Bedouin once roamed from Libya to Iraq. But concrete walls and a regime of permits have splintered them, reducing contact, commerce and marriage between Israel's 200,000 Bedouin, the West Bank's 40,000 and millions beyond, in Gaza, Jordan, Sinai and the Arabian peninsular.
Forced first into narrow enclaves and then into towns, they have generally downsized from camels to goats. Many have abandoned their herds entirely. The West Bank's last surviving herders are hemmed in by Israeli military bases, by-pass roads and Jewish settlements. Israeli soldiers confiscate flocks that stray. The settlers see them as trespassers and bar access to springs.
Life in Israel proper is little better. Nearly half the Negev's Bedouin live in villages often predating the state but officially unrecognised and so denied state support. There are no paved roads, public transport, electricity or water. Alongside Wadi Naam, a dusty Bedouin camp of 4,000 people, a toxic waste plant puffs away.
The Bedouin once hoped to integrate. Unlike most Israeli Arabs, bar the Druze, some volunteered to serve in Israel's army. But the latest plan for mass resettlement is changing the mood. Mr Netanyahu's advisers say they are simply rehousing squatters. Even the Palestinian Authority, the proto-government on the West Bank, seems to hold its nose.
Israeli officials say the masterplan for mass resettlement will entail an unprecedented transfer of government land to Israeli Arabs. Bedouin who can prove entitlement will receive half their land, or compensation. "By law the government owns the land," says Ehud Prawer, the official who devised the plan. "But as long as the dispute continues, the Bedouin can't cultivate it and we can't develop it. We need a compromise." "Concentrated" in new towns, he adds, the Bedouin will get all the services they are now denied.
The Bedouin are refusing to budge. "When a Jewish Israeli wants to go and live in the Negev, it is called the development of the south," says Rawia Abu Rabia, a Bedou lawyer. "But when Bedouin already living there want to go on living in the same place, it is considered an effort to take over state lands." Some people say it could be a dry run for transferring Arabs in northern Israel to the West Bank.
The Negev's Bedouin are forming a Council of Bedouin Tribes. Less genially, Tuba's youths protested against the torching of their mosque by vandalising the town council building. The sole Bedou in Israel's parliament, Taleb al-Sana, warns of a Bedouin intifada if the planners persist.
In neighbouring countries, the Bedouin are also on the move. In Jordan, where they once were top dogs, they have staged protests against a monied, urbanised Palestinian elite. In Egyptian Sinai they have risen up against the remnants of the ousted Hosni Mubarak's security regime.
Might a pan-Bedouin identity yet arise, linking the Bedouin under Israeli rule with the million or so scattered across the region? Many of Sinai's angry Bedouin carry Israeli mobile telephones, renewing contact across borders after decades of separation. The lucrative tunnels linking Gaza to Sinai are reviving commercial ties. A high birth-rate adds confidence in numbers. A newly educated elite is fashioning a political identity. "We're all victims of the same policy to dispossess us," says Muhammad Korshan, a West Bank Bedou activist.
This year he went to New York to ask the UN's Forum on Indigenous Peoples to recognise the Bedouin as an ethnic-minority people with rights to tribal lands. They have a long way to go. Unlike Berbers and Kurds, they have no flags or leaders. But a belated bid for recognition has begun.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 08:54 AM

"what exactly are your specific objections to the behaviour of the Israeli Govenment - I note that you have carefully avoided getting into keith's 'Bedouin' morass - there must be soemthing specific you object to, surely" ~~~

WHY must there, for Christ's sake? It's obviously your hobby to read every report avidly, looking for unspeakable iniquities. So enjoy your warm glow of contempt for the Evil Empire Of Israel. Can't you see why I don't? ~~ the whole thing is just too depressing to contemplate for me to want to go into the details: & you'd find it so too if you shared my history. It might help you to understand if you think of what your sort of person went thru at the time of the crushing of the Hungarian spring back in late 50s; or when you all had to perform that Orwellian trick when Stalinism was denounced by Kruschev in 1956; or when Gorbachev abolished the USSR in 1991...

So my specific objections are the same as yours. I'll take your obviously impartial & objective word for it and join you in shouting 'Boo, Hiss, Bastards! ~ leave those poor lovely Muslims alone to fly their planes into our buildings, you Yiddy shits, and push you back into the sea as they are officially committed by policy to do!'

There - will that do? If not, then go away. I have done. Just let me be and stop rubbing my nose in it, why can't you, you self-righteous little bully...?

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 08:06 AM

This problem has arisen because an artificial state was created by the West.
Problems have arisen in Africa because western colonials drew up new boundaries regardless of tribal boundaries.
I cannot see a solution to the palestine problem.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:41 AM

WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU CLAIMING - THAT ALL THE ARTICLES REPORTING THAT THEY HAVE BEEN MOVED YO A TOXIC RUBBISH DUMP ARE FABRICATIONS

Are YOU claiming that all Bedouin Israelis are being forced to live near this dump, or are hundreds more being created for them all?
How near are they being forced to live?
Is it ONLY Bedouin who live there, or other Israelis too?

This "TOXIC RUBBISH DUMP" is being hyped to make another bit of propaganda.
And Jim gulps it down without asking the obvious questions.

In England, thousands live near rubbish dumps.
In the next town to me (Broxbourne) are some very desirable homes (half a million pounds a pop!) built ON TOP of a vast rubbish dump!

Listen to what the Bedouin Israelis say, not to all your Israel bashing journos.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:29 AM

Yes - I know I'm being "astoundingly thick" and all that, but what exactly are your specific objections to the behaviour of the Israeli Govenment - I note that you have carefully avoided getting into keith's 'Bedouin' morass - there must be soemthing specific you object to, surely - the killing of civilians, the ghettoisation, the wall, stealing Palestinisn taxes, the humiliation, the chemical weapons..... anything, otherwise is it little more than a "tut-tut, naughty boys".
Any clariication yet Keith?
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 05:27 AM

Ho hum again, Jim.

So, OK ~ YOU tell me what word or phrase YOU would prefer to 'grave disappointment' ~ shock·horror? vomit-inducement? ~ to express my detestation of what I rubricated last time as their being
"aggressive, territorial, oppressive of their minorities: not what any of us hoped for and dreamed of at all; the very opposite, in fact" which wouldn't be 'lipservice' & you can have it. Otherwise, what do you want? That I go to Tel-Aviv airport with a suicide bomb? ~~

You are being astoundingly THICK about all this, Jim. It's that agenda which drives you, I am afraid. My grave disappointment is not confined merely to the Israeli government & state.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 04:59 AM

WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU CLAIMING - THAT ALL THE ARTICLES REPORTING THAT THEY HAVE BEEN MOVED YO A TOXIC RUBBISH DUMP ARE FABRICATIONS OR THAT MOVING FAMILIES NEXT TO A TOXIC RUBBISH DUMP IS ACCEPTABLE AND "RATHER GOOD" TREATMENT?
"I have repeatedly said that present-day Israel is a grave disappointment"
Sorry Mike - in the face of the behaviour that is being discussed -lip service.
Perhaps you would like to comment on the Israelis treatment of the Bedoiuns - fabrication or acceptable?
It is not my "distorted history of the entire aspiration" - it is what is happening on a daily basis I have been criticising. I don't have a great deal of knowledge of Zionism as a philosophy (though I have made clear I do have reservations about any religious influence in the day-to-day running of any country), but I can pick up a newspaper and read what an Zionist influenced extremist government is doing in pursuit of its present day aims
If you tell me that is a distortion of Zionism as you understand it, I will happily bow to your superior knowledge, but I do know that war against women and children is evil, whoever carries it out, and I do believe this is what the Israelis are doing, and that they are the aggressors here.
None of this excuses your apparent racist double-standards - Keith has at least made his racism abundantly clear for all to see.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 04:45 AM

Jim ~~ I OP'd a thread 9 months ago on how I thought

'"racism" has become a sort of catch-all complaint when anyone feels aggrieved for any reason; an unanswerable "yah-boo" justification for any sort of immoderate response'

to which you responded

"Mike, can't see a lot to disagree with here.
People do over-use the term racism, which, as you say, devalues the coin" [26 feb 11]

Do you not feel that your present made of going on at me, and others, is inconsistent with the opinion you expressed there?

~M~

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 04:22 AM

What do the Bedouin themselves say Jim?
The one in your Irish Times piece was quite clear that a Palestinian authority would be no better for them.
Read again Ismail Khaldi's praise for Israel's treatment of his people.
Note the extraordinary proportion of Bedouin who volunteer to fight FOR Israel, AGAINST their Arab brothers.
Note that not one single Bedouin is serving in the army of Egypt.
Note that Egyptian Bedouin are denied rights of citizenship and employment and education enjoyed by Bedouin Israelis.
Note that no journalists ever make an issue of their predicament.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 03:49 AM

Jim ~ I have repeatedly said that present-day Israel is a grave disappointment to all that my grandfather, father, sister, uncles & aunts [one of my aunts, a distinguished ex-wartime officer, spent time in the 60s as advisor on admin to the Israeli govt at same time as my father was night editor of the Jerusalem Post ~ they shared a Jerusalem flat for a year} stood for and worked for and collected for and strove for. The Israelis are aggressive, territorial, oppressive of their minorities: not what any of us hoped for and dreamed of at all; the very opposite, in fact ~~

So that's 'lip-service', is it? What more do you want, for heaven's sake?

But this doesn't mean that your distorted history of the entire aspiration, the movement, is accurate. You have your own axe to grind, Jim; you are agenda-driven: which blinds you to the difference between reasonable criticism of the activities of certain groups within certain demographics & the 'racism' which you spend your time shrilly denouncing like a demented parrot, in the brief intervals when your head is raised from the sand in which you spend most of the time with it buried. You're 'racist-crazy' the way brother Paul in the song is 'football-crazy': a breath of criticism of anyone, on whatever grounds, whose skin-tincture happens to be slightly different from that of the majority population, has the effect that "The anti-racism has robbed you of The little bit of sense you had". That's why you keep going on irrelevantly about Pakistanis in this thread where they just do not fit. You can't see anything beyond your antiracist blinkers.

The only exception is that ~~

Oh, no ~ I agreed I wouldn't go down that road again, didn't I!

~M~

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 03:25 AM

"Why do you have to call people such nasty, abusive names Jim?"
I will not be called a liar by an extremist who has proposed that all Palestinians have no right to their homeland, because my answers to his questions do not suit his particular brand of extremism.
"Despite what leftie journalists report, they are not being persecuted, they are just poor."
I can't wait to get my letter into the Irish Times and The Economist - wionder if they are aware they are carrying "leftie" propaganda.
150 families forcibly moved next to a toxic dump good treatment - I'll live with your description of "dishonest"
"Great apologies, Jim ~~ NOT."
Do you really think the present Israeli administration lives up to your grandfather's heroic memory Mike - what exactly are your qualms about what is happening in Israel today - I see very little evidence of them here apart from lip-service?
'Racist stereotyping of Jews = racism'
'Racist stereotyping of Muslims" = not'
I'll live quite comfortably with your disapproval since you seem to be quite happy to be part of Keith's anti-Muslim crusade.
I watched a remarkable Israeli film last night, 'Waltz With Bashir' -an animated eye-witness account based on the experiences of a traumatised Israeli soldier who had been present and had witnessed up close the Sabra/Shatila massacres - just as described - massacres fully facilitated by the Israelis - highly recommended -and straight from Israel.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 02:46 AM

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 05:26 AM

"I need evidence"
Who the hell do you think you are to "need evidence" of what has been long established by independant enquiries carried out by international bodies.

Dishonest Jim.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:17 AM

"No it isn't you Zionist little shit." ~~

Goodness me, Jim. "Zionist" a term of outright abuse; as it might be "fucking".

And there was I, honouring the memory of my wonderful grandfather, Morris Myer, chased out of Romania at 24 just 12 hours ahead of the secret police, for his socialist activities in trying to found a TU for blacksmiths, which he was originally, founder of the only Yiddish daily newspaper in London, a founder-member of Poale Zion [Workers Of Zion] the Zionist-Labour Party; my father eventually editor of the paper and executive committee member of PZ and delegate to the World Zionist Congress of 1947; my sister, now 86, founder of the Hendon Branch of the Federation Of Zionist Youth at age 20, after 3 years military service as ATS driver in WWii...

I hadn't appreciated what an obscene criminal background I come from.

Great apologies, Jim ~~ NOT.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 06:26 PM

The best course of action is for Israel and Palestine to combine into one state and share political authority. (Like that's going to happen). Otherwise expect perpetual war and possibly the lead in to WWIII. Israel will never accept a Palestinian separate state because they are gradually turning in to a full grown theocracy. Mullahs and Rabbis don't get along very well.

There are atrocities on both sides with Palestine getting the worst of the deal because the US had decided to support Israel by supplying them with weaponry which are being used in Palestine and Egypt. (Tear gas canisters in Egypt).

This is a silly foreign policy by the US but is done because the defense contractors and corporations make money from it.

The Fundie Xtians like it because it fulfills their bible prophecy.

Cluster bombs are big business.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 03:26 PM

Why do you have to call people such nasty, abusive names Jim?

You said many times that you knew of enquiries (plural) that proved Israel's guilt.
Now there are just two and neither accused Israel of participating.

The Bedouin are the poorest Israelis of all.
Despite what leftie journalists report, they are not being persecuted, they are just poor.
Unlike the Coptics next door in Egypt who are poor AND persecuted.
Those journalists could go into any country in the region and show the poorest people living in worse conditions than Bedouin Israelis.

Their population is rising dramatically which shows how their conditions are being improved.
Thousands of new houses are being built.
Thirteen new towns.
And remember, the streets of Jerusalem have been full of quite affluent Israelis who can not afford a home.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 01:29 PM

"As usual, you answer with an outright lie..."
No it isn't you Zionist little shit.
I replied that the Israelis should treat them as human beings - and the rest of the world for that matter.
The Israelis are the last people in the world to complain of the treatment they have received - I'm quite sure you are aware of the incident where Israeli soldiers billeted themselves with a Palestinian family, were treated with politeness - hospitality even, and in return shat in all their cooking utensils.
Or the Palestinian musician passing through a checkpoint and forced to play for jeering soldiers - chillingly reminiscent of Fania Fénelon.
This is apart from the slaughter of civilians that you and your trained monkey continue to choose to ignore.
I'm getting rather tired of armchair jackbooted thugs demanding answers to made up "facts" and bullying and blustering when they don't get the answers they prefer - you may not have left home with any manners but if you want to behave like that, go and join the Israeli army and pick on some Third-World Arabs who are not in the position to answer back
And I asked you what should happen to the Palestinians - you are the one who suggested that they have no right to their homeland.
Now go and learn some simple manners
Best wishes,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 01:02 PM

"The rest of your questions have been long answered - (eye-for-an-eye - remember) - maybe you have the same type of dislexia that Keith has been suffering from for so long."

As usual, you answer with an outright lie...


MY questions were NOT "an eye for an eye". I was asking if you thought it better for Israel to

1. Continue to treat the Palestinians the way they are presently
2. OR Treat the Palestinians the way the Arab Moslims have treated the Jews,
3. OR Treat the Palestinians the way the Other Arab Moslim States have treated the Palestinians.


I understand you may not want to consider answering a question, when you can rant about the person who disagrees with you, but I would like to know which YOU think is the best course of action for the Palestinians to hope for.