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The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band

GUEST,L Singer 25 Oct 11 - 02:08 PM
SINSULL 25 Oct 11 - 02:19 PM
katlaughing 25 Oct 11 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,tony def 25 Oct 11 - 02:50 PM
GUEST 25 Oct 11 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Dan 25 Oct 11 - 03:14 PM
The Sandman 25 Oct 11 - 03:18 PM
Mo the caller 25 Oct 11 - 03:25 PM
Mo the caller 25 Oct 11 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,Laz Gilbert. caller Leicestershire. 25 Oct 11 - 05:43 PM
GUEST,Bob 25 Oct 11 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,Jigs 'N' Reels Agency 25 Oct 11 - 06:42 PM
GUEST 26 Oct 11 - 03:47 AM
GUEST 26 Oct 11 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,The Ship Band 26 Oct 11 - 05:32 AM
GUEST,Skyranger 26 Oct 11 - 06:22 AM
GUEST,Cat Kelly 26 Oct 11 - 07:43 AM
Richard Bridge 26 Oct 11 - 07:51 AM
GUEST 26 Oct 11 - 08:00 AM
Vic Smith 26 Oct 11 - 08:40 AM
GUEST,Spanish Jim 26 Oct 11 - 09:01 AM
Will Fly 26 Oct 11 - 10:11 AM
GUEST,blogward 26 Oct 11 - 10:21 AM
BTNG 26 Oct 11 - 10:28 AM
GUEST,absolute ship 26 Oct 11 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,martin ellison 26 Oct 11 - 12:26 PM
Mo the caller 26 Oct 11 - 12:42 PM
BTNG 26 Oct 11 - 12:53 PM
Chris Partington 26 Oct 11 - 02:35 PM
GUEST 26 Oct 11 - 02:50 PM
BTNG 26 Oct 11 - 02:55 PM
greg stephens 26 Oct 11 - 03:10 PM
Richard Bridge 26 Oct 11 - 03:40 PM
BTNG 26 Oct 11 - 03:45 PM
greg stephens 26 Oct 11 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,Dick Burst 26 Oct 11 - 04:26 PM
Mary Humphreys 26 Oct 11 - 04:38 PM
BTNG 26 Oct 11 - 04:56 PM
greg stephens 26 Oct 11 - 06:05 PM
Sarah the flute 26 Oct 11 - 06:28 PM
BTNG 26 Oct 11 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,Jigs N Reels Agency 27 Oct 11 - 07:08 AM
GUEST,The Ship Band 27 Oct 11 - 07:22 AM
GUEST,blogward 27 Oct 11 - 07:40 AM
GUEST,Jigs N Reels Agency 27 Oct 11 - 07:45 AM
Dave Hanson 27 Oct 11 - 07:54 AM
Richard Bridge 27 Oct 11 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,Skyranger 27 Oct 11 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,Well Spotted Dick Burst 27 Oct 11 - 08:30 AM
Silas 27 Oct 11 - 08:32 AM
TheSnail 27 Oct 11 - 08:58 AM
GUEST,Dan 27 Oct 11 - 08:59 AM
GUEST 27 Oct 11 - 09:52 AM
GUEST,The Good Ship Band 27 Oct 11 - 11:05 AM
BTNG 27 Oct 11 - 11:07 AM
GUEST 27 Oct 11 - 11:52 AM
SteveMansfield 27 Oct 11 - 02:20 PM
GUEST 27 Oct 11 - 02:41 PM
BTNG 27 Oct 11 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,999 27 Oct 11 - 02:56 PM
BTNG 27 Oct 11 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,A covert Ship Supporter 27 Oct 11 - 04:43 PM
BTNG 27 Oct 11 - 05:19 PM
Noreen 27 Oct 11 - 05:40 PM
BTNG 27 Oct 11 - 05:45 PM
Noreen 27 Oct 11 - 05:56 PM
GUEST,Ship Band Supporter 27 Oct 11 - 07:09 PM
Bernard 27 Oct 11 - 07:33 PM
Noreen 27 Oct 11 - 08:05 PM
BTNG 27 Oct 11 - 09:48 PM
Dave Hanson 28 Oct 11 - 03:10 AM
Howard Jones 28 Oct 11 - 03:33 AM
Howard Jones 28 Oct 11 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,Ship Band Supporter 28 Oct 11 - 04:54 AM
Les in Chorlton 28 Oct 11 - 05:13 AM
Silas 28 Oct 11 - 05:57 AM
GUEST,Crazy Old Bird 28 Oct 11 - 06:16 AM
Sarah the flute 28 Oct 11 - 06:17 AM
Silas 28 Oct 11 - 06:41 AM
Howard Jones 28 Oct 11 - 07:43 AM
Silas 28 Oct 11 - 07:56 AM
Les in Chorlton 28 Oct 11 - 08:14 AM
Silas 28 Oct 11 - 08:25 AM
Les in Chorlton 28 Oct 11 - 08:37 AM
Silas 28 Oct 11 - 08:43 AM
Les in Chorlton 28 Oct 11 - 09:38 AM
GUEST,Licence to Ceilidh 28 Oct 11 - 10:43 AM
Chris Partington 28 Oct 11 - 01:39 PM
Noreen 28 Oct 11 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Interested 28 Oct 11 - 04:09 PM
BTNG 28 Oct 11 - 04:32 PM
Stilly River Sage 28 Oct 11 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,Jigs N Reels Agency 28 Oct 11 - 09:24 PM
Will Fly 29 Oct 11 - 04:55 AM
Richard Bridge 29 Oct 11 - 06:19 AM
Les in Chorlton 29 Oct 11 - 06:46 AM
Silas 29 Oct 11 - 06:55 AM
Will Fly 29 Oct 11 - 08:32 AM
Silas 29 Oct 11 - 08:34 AM
Will Fly 29 Oct 11 - 08:46 AM
Silas 29 Oct 11 - 08:51 AM
Will Fly 29 Oct 11 - 09:04 AM
Silas 29 Oct 11 - 09:26 AM
Will Fly 29 Oct 11 - 09:32 AM
Bernard 29 Oct 11 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,Andy Rouse 01 Nov 11 - 01:13 PM
greg stephens 01 Nov 11 - 02:12 PM
BTNG 01 Nov 11 - 02:15 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Nov 11 - 03:04 PM
Richard Bridge 16 Nov 11 - 02:49 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Nov 11 - 06:39 AM
Peter C 17 Nov 11 - 11:52 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Nov 11 - 12:00 PM
Howard Jones 22 Nov 11 - 08:34 AM
Mr Happy 22 Nov 11 - 11:00 AM
Les from Hull 22 Nov 11 - 02:22 PM
GUEST 19 Dec 11 - 03:34 AM
Howard Jones 19 Dec 11 - 03:58 AM
Darowyn 19 Dec 11 - 04:42 AM
Silas 19 Dec 11 - 04:50 AM
Howard Jones 19 Dec 11 - 10:21 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Dec 11 - 11:20 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Dec 11 - 11:22 AM
Silas 19 Dec 11 - 11:32 AM
GUEST,rudog 06 Mar 13 - 08:38 AM
Dave Hanson 06 Mar 13 - 09:46 AM
Noreen 06 Mar 13 - 05:44 PM
GUEST,Andy Growly 14 Apr 14 - 04:05 AM
IanC 14 Apr 14 - 04:31 AM
Mr Red 14 Apr 14 - 07:01 AM
Mr Red 14 Apr 14 - 07:06 AM
GUEST,Peter 14 Apr 14 - 09:33 AM
treewind 14 Apr 14 - 09:36 AM
GUEST 14 Apr 14 - 10:17 AM
Howard Jones 14 Apr 14 - 10:46 AM
GUEST 14 Apr 14 - 11:23 AM
GUEST 14 Apr 14 - 02:38 PM
Mo the caller 14 Apr 14 - 05:57 PM
GUEST 14 Apr 14 - 06:10 PM
treewind 14 Apr 14 - 06:56 PM
GUEST 15 Apr 14 - 04:57 AM
Dave Hanson 15 Apr 14 - 05:54 AM
The Sandman 15 Apr 14 - 09:09 AM
GUEST 15 Apr 14 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,Jabez Clegg 15 Apr 14 - 10:18 AM
GUEST 15 Apr 14 - 12:15 PM
Manitas_at_home 15 Apr 14 - 02:45 PM
Howard Jones 16 Apr 14 - 08:17 AM
Mr Red 16 Apr 14 - 09:37 AM
Dave Hanson 16 Apr 14 - 09:42 AM
Mr Red 16 Apr 14 - 09:44 AM
Noreen 16 Apr 14 - 08:50 PM
Mr Red 17 Apr 14 - 10:56 AM
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JHW 18 Apr 14 - 07:40 AM
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Subject: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,L Singer
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 02:08 PM

As a regular folk festival goer I am well connected to many wonderful singers. However I did not know where to start when my wife and I were planning to hire a ceilidh band for a party. Well I decided to begin with Google. I was soon bombarded with information for dozens of ceilidh bands across the country all with flashy websites. I was searching for bands in Oxfordshire and came across this page http://www.shipband.co.uk/oxfordshire/   " online home of Oxfordshire Ceilidh Band, the Ship Band" Well this seemed a promising start, until as I continued my search looking further afield, I found this http://www.shipband.co.uk/warwickshire/ "Welcome to the online home of Warwickshire Ceilidh Band, the Ship Band"    and this http://www.shipband.co.uk/wiltshire/ Well now I was intrigued and it didn't take long to find thht they claim to be from the following places:
Bath
Bristol
London
Exeter
Gloucester
Plymouth
Swindon
Bournemouth
Brighton
Guildford
Kent
Milton Keynes
Oxford
Portsmouth
Reading
Southampton
Cambridge
Essex
Ipswich
Luton
Norwich
Birmingham
Coventry
Stoke-on-Trent
Derby
Leicester
Nottingham
Lancs
Liverpool
Manchester
Bradford
Hull
Leeds
Sheffield
York
Middlesbrough
Newcastle
Sunderland
Cardiff
Swansea
Edinburgh
Glasgow
Bedfordshire
Berkshire
Bromley
Buckinghamshire
Cheshire
Chester
Cornwall
Cumbria
Derbyshire
Doncaster
Dorset
Gloucestershire
Grimsby
Hampshire
Harrogate
Hereford
Hertfordshire
Huddersfield
Kendal
Lancashire
Leicestershire
Lincoln
Lincolnshire
Litchfield
Maidstone
North Yorkshire
Northumberland
Oxfordshire
Pembrookshire
Peterborough
Rugby
Shropshire
Somerset
Suffolk
Surrey
Sussex
Taunton
Teeside
The Wirral
Torquay
Totnes
Tunbridge Wells
Warwickshire
West Yorkshire
Wiltshire
Wirral
Worcester
Yorkshire

http://www.shipband.co.uk/about.htm


I was shocked to find that within the folky genre there are people that are trying to hoodwink clients to make a fast buck. Has anyone else had experince of this? Can anyone please recommend a reputable Oxfordshire ceilidh band? Thankyou. L


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 02:19 PM

They can't spell either. "Testamonials"??????


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 02:48 PM

They do look rather overly-ambitious, but to be fair it says they "have played" in certain places and "hope" to soon play in the other places listed not "from" all of those places.

Good luck finding a good band!


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,tony def
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 02:50 PM

Ha! I wonder if they do all the regional accents!


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:09 PM

Well yes. We all hope to play places, and get more google hits. They do list themselves as INSERT-PLACE-NAME-HERE ceilidh band on each page. Haha


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:14 PM

It's run like a franchise. When you book them they subcontract musicians local to you to go out and do the gig as "The Ship Band". There are several bands that work this way (see also http://www.licencetoceilidh.co.uk/), mostly aimed at weddings etc where the pay is high, but the audience is undiscerning enough to not notice that they have a scratch band. And of course, the band can be in several different places at once earning the agency more money on any given weekend. It's a clever system for someone to rake it in while sending others out to do the work.

I think 'fraud' is a bit strong, but maybe you're right to be indignant that the band you get might not contain any of the same members to "The Ship Band" that has played elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:18 PM

google oxfordshire ceili bands


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mo the caller
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:25 PM

I can't recommend a band, but there is a discusion list for Eceilidh and they list bands and callers here.
Cat Kelly (listed) is a caller involved with organising a ceilidh series Oxfolk, she might be able to advise.
On the other hand, the bands that play for ceilidh series for enthusiasts tend to be Nationally know, there are lots of local bands who play for parties, weddings etc.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mo the caller
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 05:04 PM

More bands and callers here , but of course, they are there because they want to be, not recommended.
Before you contact a band think about what you want. Loud Folk-Rock, Irish style (fast diddley), English (which sometimes means a lot of polka's, unless you are in the NE when it's rants). Any preferences for instrumentation?
Look on the website, there may be a public ceilidh you can go to, but often bands will arrange for people to pop in to a private gig to hear them.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Laz Gilbert. caller Leicestershire.
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 05:43 PM

http://www.webfeet.org/


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 05:50 PM

Hi,

I'm in Coventry so Oxford is within my reach - I'm a caller and work with various local bands (and less local as well) so feel free to get in touch.

Bob
bob.ceilidhcalling.co.uk
bob@ceilidhcalling.co.uk


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Jigs 'N' Reels Agency
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 06:42 PM

As a specialist agency,we represent only ceilidh,barn dance and hoedown bands and several bands that we list are either in Oxford area or willingly travel to Oxford.Of course,we charge a commission/admin fee included within any quoted fees.Bands can vary in numerous aspects which Mo touched upon above.Though I am a caller myself,we do state quite clearly that we are an agency - so I do share your concerns about 'Ship Band' (I'm presuming that what you say is true) as being a bit,let's say,misleading......clearly,the same band won't be in St Austell or Aberdeen ! (And the Ship Band in Bristol might not be too pleased about the aforementioned website)
If you attend festivals regularly and have contacts amongst singers/performers,I'd suggest that you start with them....singers/musicians usually know 'someone who can....' but that is a lot of legwork/phone calls.Most bands should be able to arrange a 'pre-view' in some way,shape or form or forward references which you can take up.And flash band websites do not always equal good bands.In my area (Worcester),there is a band that I consider one of the best around and they don't even have a website ! Can't put them on my website 'cos I've got no pretty pictures of them !
Of course,this is partly a blatant plug for www.jigsnreels.com as I'm running a business ....but as a folkie as well,I like to think that clients get the right style of bands to suit their event rather than just farm an event out to someone who lives round the corner !
Chris Mulvey


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 03:47 AM

you could try monty's maggot (www.montysmaggot.co.uk - not too flash a site!). I live in Oxfordshire, flos is in gloucester or shropshire, neil in manchester. Nina Hansell depped with us at wallingford bunkfest with her husband calling - they live in wallingford.
jerry


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 03:50 AM

i should have added that flos and neil also play in the old swan band which gives a clue to what monty's maggot sounds like!


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,The Ship Band
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 05:32 AM

I have often wondered who it is that has that much spare time on their hands that they come across my site through Google searches for which we rank 25 (ceilidh band Oxfordshire) rather than clicking on the paid link at the top of every page, but I really should have made the connection between this practise and Mudcat users.

"I was shocked to find that within the folky genre there are people that are trying to hoodwink clients to make a fast buck."…….. Brilliant, although I prefer to think of myself as being part of the "entertainment industry" than the "folky genre". I realise this is beyond the aspirations of some of our "reputable" competitors.

@ Chris from Jigs n reels: Are you actually concerned about our model, or more so about the fact that we consistently outbid you on Adwords? Also FYI, we are "the ship band from Bristol" as well, and we don't advertise in Aberdeen.

Of course we use deps, everyone does, we just do it more efficiently and we regularly book musicians that would otherwise be performing in some of the UK's top performing folk bands and acts

The idea that a group of musicians that get together to rehearse the Rochdale Coconut Dance and compare notes on the beards hanging below the bottom rim of their short shorts once a week are more qualified as a band than the "scratch band" of professional / semi-professional musicians that we put together is laughable.

We have a long and growing list of satisfied customers and are very much looking forward to more slanderous posts on Mudcat in the future.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Skyranger
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 06:22 AM

To be honest, now I just wouldn't want to book you because you seem unnecessarily offensive and unprofessional. Not to mention pretty self-important.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Cat Kelly
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 07:43 AM

Hi, thanks for the mention Mo.

Yes I'm happy to advise on ceilidh bands in Oxfordshire - please get in touch on cat@catkelly.co.uk. (I do the bookings for Oxfolk ceilidhs and am also a caller and musician myself.)

Re The Ship Band; for what it's worth I have both called and played with them. They are nice chaps who take the music and the industry seriously, but themselves less so. And sometimes they're a bit too cheeky for their own good ;)

Cheers
Cat x


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 07:51 AM

It seems to me that the promotional practices of "the Ship Band" are considerably less than honest. I've had this problem before (when I did co-run a folk club that paid guests) with bands who are not the people one expects or who are not the players on their demos, and who sound crap in comparison to what one was expecting. Club members were disappointed by the quality of the acts provided.

I also don't like the designation of folk music as "the entertainment industry". You can keep Mr Cowell and stick him where the sun does not shine.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 08:00 AM

Geckoes...

Baz


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 08:40 AM

Yes, certainly Geckoes. They performed at our Lewes Folk Festival earlier this month and were pretty damn good.

And whilst I am writing, could I put in a word for Chris Mulvey and his Jigs'n'Reels agency, as he has posted in this thread. Our band, The Sussex Pistols, generally get plenty of work, thank you very much - and we have encountered some not-entirely-honest sharp operators amongst agents so that generally, when agents approach us, we say, "We don't work through agents, thank you very much." However, Chris approaches us several times a year and we always take the gigs that he offers us if we are free. He is friendly, easy to work with and efficient and I would recommend him to anyone. I don't think that he has bands that are "on his books"; I think he has - over the years - built up a network of bands that he knows that he can work with in different parts of the country.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Spanish Jim
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 09:01 AM

The Glorystrokes! They're based just up the road and can be relied on to put a nice gentle, pleasant night together.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 10:11 AM

The idea that a group of musicians that get together to rehearse the Rochdale Coconut Dance and compare notes on the beards hanging below the bottom rim of their short shorts once a week are more qualified as a band than the "scratch band" of professional / semi-professional musicians that we put together is laughable.

Oh - really?


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,blogward
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 10:21 AM

Is that 'Ship' with a silent 'p'?


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: BTNG
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 10:28 AM

the "p" is silent the "t" isn't...by the by, nice try by someone who's a regular (obviously) at passing themselves off as The Ship (silent "p") Band, a plot twist one could see coming a mile off LOL but that's old Mudcat for ya!;-)


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,absolute ship
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 12:18 PM

"I also don't like the designation of folk music as "the entertainment industry"" - hahaha does that make folk music 'above' or 'below' the entertainment industry or does it simply mean it is not entertaining and should only be preformed sat on cold hard backed chairs on out of tune instruments? - @richard bridge - if folk music suddenly became even more popular would you stop liking it? What is a ceilidh if not entertainment, I'm pretty sure it's billed as that as part of the reception at wedding for example.

I think 'fraud' has been mistaken for heavily marketed. It would appear that every other are of the music scene has managed to progress in terms of how it markets itself - why not folk? I've heard of a bunch of tossers who use an arrogant, old fashioned and inclusive forum called mudcat to whinge about folk music not being like it was 'in the old days' posting nude pictures made in photoshop of A.L Lloyd and discussing the rumours that Cecil Sharp could bring 3 woman to climax with with the flick of his collectors fountain pen and now i have experienced this first hand.

Bravo - most amused and certainly i feel recruited as a new member, i'll certainly be checking back in the future to reacquaint myself with the ignoramus' that still dilute what is actually becoming a progressive and professional industry.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 12:26 PM

I lost a long post addressed to Mr shipband just then, no idea why. I can't be bothered to write it all again so I think I can condense it thus:

What an ignorant, patronising, insulting, money-grabbing twat you are.

Martin Ellison


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 12:42 PM

"I have often wondered who .... come across my site through Google searches for which we rank 25 (ceilidh band Oxfordshire) rather than clicking on the paid link at the top of every page"

Why should I click a paid link? I always use the seach results so that I can compare things myself, not the paid adverts.
Last time I clicked a paid ad I was looking for CAB and it took me to someone who offered to sort all your problems - for a fee.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: BTNG
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 12:53 PM

GUEST,absolute ship the ("p" is silent, the "t" isn't) obviously takes fraud seriously....it's a criminal offense, sunshine, just remember that


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Chris Partington
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 02:35 PM

I assume that Guest Absolute Ship is a troll with no connection to the band; Guest Ship Band may be the genuine article or not, but would do well to remember that not everyone listening in is necessarily of the same opinion as each other, but will uniformly be offended by some of your remarks.

Well, all the hoo-haa has reminded me that I should get a move on and do some work on the marketing side with my band(s). I'm afraid I keep losing interest and forgetting what I've done so far in terms of assembling piccys and stuff. Once I've got my act together I'll put it through the spell-checker (note to The Ship Band, not sarcastic, we all have our little ways). Then if I get really keen I'll hope to make a website as seductive as The Ship Band's. And then I'll be in a position to be marketable by an agent. I am not upset if that makes me part of the entertainment industry, I'm providing a service for money.

Other than a noticeable number of spelling mistakes and over-enthusiastic cloning of the site to make it misleadingly look as if they're local to several places at once, I can see no fraudulent claims on there, nothing that many other bands don't also claim.

Their members, like many bands, are spread around a bit, which presumably provides the excuse for all those websites, (a real put-off), they are willing to travel for gigs, they tell you who's likely to be in the band. And yes, everybody uses deps, too. Whoever it is each time, I've no doubt they deliver an acceptable product.

Still, they should rein in the webmaster. People notice these things.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 02:50 PM

"we regularly book musicians that would otherwise be performing in some of the UK's top performing folk bands and acts"

Maybe you should let them!


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: BTNG
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 02:55 PM

question: if these"top musicians" are so good, why aren't they performing in the UK's top performing folk bands and acts?

answer: because the so called musicians don't exist except in the mind(s) of the perpetrators of this cheap and very shabby con

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

You've been sussed...give it up and, please, go away. Thank you


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 03:10 PM

May I point out the(blindingly obvious) fact that this shape-changing "Ship Band" has no connection with the Boat Band. Which is more than willing to play barn dances in Oxford, or indeed anywhere else, if the price is right.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 03:40 PM

And which, forgive me if I point out Greg, has some artistic integrity rather than being happy to sell its birthright for a mess of pottage.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: BTNG
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 03:45 PM

and The Boat Band is very talented..which is also blindingly obvious ;-)

Seriously, they are, folks, worth booking and very worth dancing to.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 03:59 PM

Thank you for the "talented" comment. But I would like to point out that the Ship Band is I'm sure just as talented as other bands on the scene. too. In fact I know they are. They just seem to have sadly fallen into some rather murky marketing waters. Because I am damn sure they are not a Stoke-on-Trent ceilidh band, whatever it says on the internet! Enjoy these sites, by the way, folks. I'll bet they are taken down, or radically modified, very very soon indeed.
I organise barn dances in Stoke-on-Trent, by the way. If that group with long beards who play the Rochdale Coconut Dance care to contact me, I'm sure we can put you on.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Dick Burst
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 04:26 PM

The Ship Band are basically the same arrogant, childish t@ats who annoy session goers at many festivals throughout the year. Ignore them, they are mocking you all.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 04:38 PM

To quote the Ship Band "Of course we use deps, everyone does,"

I beg to differ. Fendragon put on our contract that we usually go out as a foursome, but in exceptional circumstances ( meaning extreme illness ) we go out as a threesome. I can't remember ever using a deputy because the band would not sound the same.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: BTNG
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 04:56 PM

I'm thinking Dick Burst is a member of this bgus band....really DICK..conning people....into hiring a fake band...one of these days DICK, you're going to get yours....


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 06:05 PM

Well, I'm keeping an eye on this intriguing question. As of now(Wednesday evening,Oct 26, 11PMish) the website is still describing the Ship Band as a "Stoke-on-Trent ceilidh band". There are people who might describe this statement as all sorts of things, I will merely say it is a terminological inexactitude. Or,to be more precise, I can't say I've noticed them in evidence round Stoke. They must be keeping an extremely low profile.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 06:28 PM

Another word in praise of Chris Mulvey's agency Jigs "n" Reels who give my band The Flying Chaucers some excellent gigs. They are always well organised and the punters always seem to know exactly what they will be getting music wise which is reassuring from our point of view. This is the good part about using a reputable agency.

Sarah

PS we also play Oxford area


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: BTNG
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 06:56 PM

Sarah, thanks for some sanity on this totally insane thread :-)


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Jigs N Reels Agency
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 07:08 AM

First of all,thanks to Vic and Sarah for the (unsolicited) endorsements as to how our agency operates.Like anyone else,I enjoy a pat on the back now and then.
But back to the crux of the matter - I could just as easily have set up a website called 'Jigs N Reels Ceilidh Band' promoting myself as caller with my own band of musicians and give an impression to anyone looking at the site that 'this is what you will get'.(In fact,I have considered that option previously and decided against doing so).
For example,Fiona at bandsandmusicians.co.uk promotes her own band (Jigabit) on her website BUT she does not give the impression that this band will necessarily be the band that a client books - she makes it clear that this IDENTIFIABLE band line-up (and I'm sure they must get the odd deps every so often) is an option,subject to contraints of workload/geography/suitability for the event and she also makes it crystal clear that,as an agent,she can arrange for other similar bands to perform.Very straightforward.
Now,with the Ship Band promotion website I suggest that the 'client' thinks that they are going to be enquiring about that particular band.So if you are the Ship Band from Bristol and your punter in Barrow-in-Furness enquires about your band - well,you may wish to do the gig if the fee is right.BUT,if your original intention is to engage another band closer to Cumbria then you are effectively acting either as an 'introducer' (unpaid) - and I'd doubt this - or you are effectively acting as an agent (paid).In the latter case,the promotion website is a promotional ploy to attract clients - and I would consider that to be misleading (albeit,possibly effective but misleading nevertheless).
It would be no different to my representing myself (and the band that I call with most regularly) by way of a website/video clip and pretending that we perform in Truro regularly (being based in Worcs,I think not !).Ok,yeh,we all know that the conversation with your client will run along the lines of 'Oh,sorry,we're already booked on that date but I know a very similar band nearer to Truro bla bla bla...'
In such a scenario,it would be
(a) misleading 'cos the band and I never had the least intention of travelling to Truro
(b) misleading 'cos I would be really just acting as an agent (and should fall under the trading standards of DTI and their mountains of clauses and red tape from which all established agencies suffer)
(c) wasting the time of the client who thought they were checking out a band in the Truro area.
As for the comments about 'bidding for clicks' - frankly,I just can't be arsed to argue the toss or get involved in 'point-scoring'.How you operate PPC is your concern (and mine is mine).
The guy in Oxford should consider Vic's suggestion of Geckoes (or their smaller line-up which they also offer) and also any band that has Flos Headford on fiddle is going to be 'very danceable to'.
Chris Mulvey


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,The Ship Band
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 07:22 AM

Hello again

This thread is brilliant, and not the first time we've sparked heated exchanges on here http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=112047. That was another thread also contributed to by Messrs Stephens and Bridge, and we still refer to the comment on there about us looking like we were the "Bees' knees"

So just to clarify a few things, mainly one thing actually:

YES WE ARE MOCKING YOU (well spotted dick).

Also, there is nothing wrong with my web site, and in fact it cleverly solves two problems; 1) When looking for bands (most) people search locally for something that is supplied nationally and b) a lot of young talented musicians do very little about marketing themselves.

Yes, when some people say they want a 'local' band, they mean a 'cheap' band, and they will find the Short-Shorts-Rochdale-Beardy-Coconuting-Banjo-Band if that's what they want. Others search locally without realising even if they're after something better, and they find us.

This Mudcat page however, is (i believe) libellous and currently ranking 15th for Google search term "the Ship Band".

I really don't want to spoil the fun and genuinely enjoy being called a money grabbing twat by weirdy beardy types. In order to ensure that all mudcat users can continue to read this page at their leisure but without any danger that anyone who I would ever want to hear from will accidentally come across it is there any way that someone can add the following meta tag to this page:

[meta name="robots" content="noindex"]

(obviously <> rather than [] but i can't post it otherwise)


Thanks

Adam


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,blogward
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 07:40 AM

@Adam: So is the 'p' silent or not?


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Jigs N Reels Agency
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 07:45 AM

did you see any hemeroids when you last looked ?


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 07:54 AM

You sadly give yourself away Adam by trying to take the piss out of a dance troup with a very very long pedigree, firmly founded in the folk tradition, merely in order to distract from your own lack of pedigree in any sort of tradition, or any depth at all.

BTW it's the Brittania Coconut Dancers [ from Bacup ]

Dave H


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 08:08 AM

Ah-hah - spot the style - are they perhaps a "National" ceilidh band?


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Skyranger
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 08:09 AM

@Adam - It can't be libellous, because so far I haven't seen anything untrue here. Your attitude alone shows someone with little to no regard for customer service, and someone with very limited social skills.

Also, welcome to the internet. If you don't want clients to see you acting like a rude, self important, unprofessional child, then don't act like one on a public forum. Even if you are one.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Well Spotted Dick Burst
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 08:30 AM

No, it's not a 'National' ceilidh band, it's just an agency who have a lot of musicians on their books through out the country and put scratch bands together. Simple.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Silas
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 08:32 AM

Could be a British National ceilidh band?


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 08:58 AM

Not drawing any conclusions, but GUEST,L Singer has never posted to Mudcat before (under that name) and hasn't posted again since starting this thread.

GUEST,Skyranger and GUEST,Dick Burst have only ever posted to this thread.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 08:59 AM

Problem is Adam, that comes across as a challenge. And it's not hard to find out how we might get this page to number one on Google...

Also, are you paying per click for the paid ads? So every time someone clicks you have to pay for it? You know what to do everyone... ;)


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 09:52 AM

@GUEST,The Ship Band

You're so funny.

Sorry I meant laughable.

I suggest you and do some research on Gerald Ratner amongst others.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,The Good Ship Band
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 11:05 AM

Please can someone stop this thread as Its messing up my bands google links and we're nothing to do with it

My Band

Thanks


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: BTNG
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 11:07 AM

You ceased to be fumnny posts ago, "Ship" bugger off


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 11:52 AM

Guessing GUEST,The Good Ship Band is really GUEST,The Ship Band

as googling the good ship band does not bring up the [ungood] ship band or this thread unless you use the word ceilidh, which you wouldn't as they are not a folk band.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 02:20 PM

Only 15th, eh? This will hopefully get this thread a bit higher up Google ...

The Ship Band Glasgow barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Bedfordshire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Berkshire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Bromley barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Buckinghamshire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Cheshire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Chester barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Cornwall barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Cumbria barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Derbyshire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Doncaster barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Dorset barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Gloucestershire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Grimsby barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Hampshire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Harrogate barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Hereford barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Hertfordshire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Huddersfield barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Kendal barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Lancashire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Leicestershire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Lincoln barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Lincolnshire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Litchfield barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Maidstone barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band North Yorkshire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Northumberland barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Oxfordshire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Pembrookshire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Peterborough barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Rugby barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Shropshire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Somerset barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Suffolk barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Surrey barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Sussex barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Taunton barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Teeside barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band The Wirral barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Torquay barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Totnes barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Tunbridge Wells barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Warwickshire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band West Yorkshire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Wiltshire barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Wirral barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Worcester barn dance hoe down ceilidh
The Ship Band Yorkshire barn dance hoe down ceilidh


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 02:41 PM

Why do I suspect an attempt to avoid the Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003?


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: BTNG
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 02:41 PM

I'd love to see someone track this nasty piece of work down, and show him/her what for,,,,hint hint


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 02:56 PM

Yeah. Well, you get right on that, BTNG.

###############################################

This is not the first time nor will it be the last time that those who may not be named on Mudcat use Mudcat to push their agendas. Figured at least the Brits would know that by now. Guess not.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: BTNG
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 03:09 PM

I just might........

and who says I'm British....


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,A covert Ship Supporter
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 04:43 PM

I for one think that The Ship national ceilidh band is a fantastic idea. Anyone looking for affordable local ceilidh bands is obviously going to google their area, and a bit of healthy advertising competition never hurt anyone. I play in two ceilidh bands, and have nothing against the Ship idea whatsoever. It gives others an incentive to sort their sites out so that they're properly SEOed and not a complete mess (like this one!). Also, musicians who play with the Ship in whatever region may be on different instruments to the lineup somewhere else, but will certainly be of a high standard of instrumentality.

Irrespective of the Ship's marketing tactics, and the venomous spewing forth against them from this quarter, I'd just like to point out the error of Dave Hanson- I think you'll find that Adam (whoever he might be) was referring to the humpty tumpty little tune popularised by cheesy morris sides and discordant Bellowhead renditions and beloved of aging melodeeon players (none of THOSE in the Ship Band, or at least not that I know of), not the dance troupe.

Finally to Guest999, do I take it from your lazy English and casual assumption of your superiority over posters from other countries that you are American? I could insert a joke here, but it's better that British readers consider an American they know and chuckle to themselves.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: BTNG
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 05:19 PM

Oh stop it, we know who you are loser....oh wait though aiding and abetting a criminal activity, that might get you a couple of years inside...and please make up your mind wherere you're, though the towns already listed would be quick to disown you...anti social behaviour and all that


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Noreen
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 05:40 PM

Very illuminating, in many ways.

The arrogance exhibited on this thread is stunning- and is here as a permanent record.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: BTNG
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 05:45 PM

Yes It is.....yet no one will do anything about this idiot, will they, one could almost be tempted to think that those who run this place love this sort of stuff


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Noreen
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 05:56 PM

Huh, BTNG?

"Those who run this place" provide an open forum for all to post freely as they wish.

Certain people have, by their arrogance on this thread, alienated themselves from a large part of the UK folk fraternity.

They may well be happy with that; if so, good luck to them.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Ship Band Supporter
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 07:09 PM

Haven't you lot got anything better to do than sit on this forum all day? Pathetic.
SLANDER is also illegal....... and like someone has just said, there is a permanent record of it on here if legal advice on the matter was saught. The ship band do what the majority of other bands, folk or not, do the length and breadth of the country. You have shown yourselves to be ignorant morons.

Having grown up in the folk world, I thought you were all decent people. Oh, how wrong I was.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Bernard
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 07:33 PM

Pot calling kettle...


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Noreen
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 08:05 PM

Adam, I think you're on your own here... it might be wise for you to stop digging.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: BTNG
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 09:48 PM

grown up......? I'll refrain......


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 03:10 AM

The trouble with ' guest ' posters is that they are free to change identity as it suits them, blatently obvious on this thread with you know who.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 03:33 AM

When I first read this I was inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and to think that it was just a case of over-enthusiastic marketing of a genuine band. although the reluctance to fully identify the musicians on the website raised my suspicions. However having re-read some of Adam's posts (and assuming they are genuine) then I think the OP was right - this seems to be just a front for a network of scratch bands. Adam's claim that they use deps "more efficiently" than other bands as good as admits this.

Of course there is nothing wrong with using deps, and most bands use them from time to time. However there is a difference between bringing a dep into an established lineup, to cover the absence of a regular band member, and sending out a scratch band. There's nothing wrong with scratch bands either, provided they can deliver the goods, although to claim that a scratch band is better than one which regularly rehearses and performs together is extraordinary. However it's the lack of honesty which is disturbing. Fraudulent? probably not, but undoubtedly misleading.

Of course it is clearly aimed at the wedding market - nothing wrong with that, this the bread and butter for most bands. If the lineups they send out meet the standards of the examples on the website, I'm sure they do a good job, although I don't see anything to support their claim to be "the UK's premier ceilidh and barn dance band". They seem to have only contempt for the folk scene, but they're entitled to their opinion. However they should bear in mind that couples booking a band for their wedding often want more than "testamonials" - they do their due diligence, and often want to see the band perform before deciding to book them. That might just be a problem. The band also might like to consider that this thread will no doubt come up on Google searches, and will reveal not only what they are up to but that Adam's responses show they are arrogant and condescending - all of this is likely to put off potential clients.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 03:50 AM

And another thing...

I'm not sure what they've got against the tune for the "Rochdale Coconut Dance", other than it's a "humpty tumpty" tune and they seem to prefer "diddly diddly" ones. From the snippets I listened to on their website, the tunes they were playing appeared to be fairly bog-standard too, so I'm not sure why they're adopting such a superior position. It comes across as another example of their arrogant and condescending attitude.

I don't doubt their standards of musicianship, assuming the lineups they send out are of a similar quality. I don't doubt they'll give their clients a good performance and an enjoyable event, which is of course the main thing. As a musician in a ceilidh band, I don't mind the competition. I do dislike their dishonest advertising and their overall attitude.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Ship Band Supporter
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 04:54 AM

I'm not Adam. Just someone who has been following reading this thread as it was ridiculous.
Have any of you actually SEEN them perform?
no, thought not....so who are you to judge really?


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 05:13 AM

I have read most of this and I think Howard, no relation, sums things up pretty well. In the end it's about honesty and that's what seems to be missing. The unpleasantness doesn't help but many of us have done a bit of that off and on.

Back covering:

Ths Beech Band has around 45 members in that 45 people have been to our tunes session at The Beech. We have played for around 8 Ceilidhs and on each occasion a core of around 10 have turned up with anything up to 20 others - a variable 20 each time. We are moving from "Beginners" to "Improvers" we play with out PA except for Rob our brilliant caller and we make all this very clear.

Making all this is very clear Ship People. Why don't you?

L in C#


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Silas
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 05:57 AM

Well, lots of hot air here. Personally, altghough the Ship bands site is a little misleading, I don't have a problem with it. Bear in mind who it is aimed at, and the difficulty that its intended viewer has finding a Barndance band, I think it is, overall, a great idea. Providing that the standard of music and calling is up to par, just what is the problem? I played for years in a Ceilidh band and although that band no longer exists, I still stand in as guitarist for several different bands, I remember one occasion when, out of a five piece band, only two permenent members were playing, three of us were stand ins, absoloutly no problem whatsoever, and, lets face it, barndance music is hardly the pinnacle of excellence is it, no matter how well played.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Crazy Old Bird
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 06:16 AM

Yes Silas, plenty of hot air & the faint odour of sour grapes from people who wish they'd thought of the idea first.

And Dick Burst - "The Ship Band are basically the same arrogant, childish t@ats who annoy session goers at many festivals throughout the year" This poses the question why do many festival organisers use them to host/run/keep sessions going - probably because their music always attracts a crowd of onlookers tapping their feet & dancing around...... sounds like the basis for a good ceilidh band to me !


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 06:17 AM

I go out gigging most weekends - sometimes with my own band The Flying Chaucers and sometimes calling for other lineups (both established bands and some scratch bands with excellent musicians). One observation I would make is that no matter how brilliant the musicians are one other ingredient is vital for a successful ceilidh and that is that the musicians are sympathetic to the ability of the dancers and don't just play at 100mph because they can. Sometimes the music is almost incidental in the success of the evening which depends upon the enjoyment of the dancers. It is difficult for a scratch band to have this empathy - achieving this takes time and getting to know your fellow band members.

Sarah


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Silas
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 06:41 AM

Hi Sarah, yes I agree with you there. I know lots of very good musicians who cannot cut it when it comes to playing for dances - some tunes seem excruciatingly slow when played for a dance, and some , particularly Irish specialists, tent to try to speed up the tempo a tad.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 07:43 AM

The problem is that what they are apparently delivering is not what they advertise. Their website gives the impression that they are an established band with a more or less fixed lineup, whereas reading between the lines the reality seems to be it is a net for attracting bookings for which they will then put together a scratch band from local musicians. How can that equate with their claim to be "the UK's premier ceilidh and barn dance band"?

As I said before, I don't doubt the bands provided are good musicians or that their clients go away happy. However they won't have got what was advertised. Just because it's aimed at a market which may be fairly undiscerning, does that make it acceptable?

My own band will use deps from time to time, but usually not more than one in a lineup. Sometimes we'll agree with a client to go out with reduced numbers for a lower fee in order to meet their budget, but we'll tell them that's what we'll be doing so there's no misucnderstanding. If we can't get enough regular members to do a gig, then one of us will sometimes put together a scratch band, but that doesn't then go out under our band's name. It's about being honest with your customers.

I don't think this band's marketing practices reflect well on them. More worringly, it doesn't reflect well on the ceilidh band scene as a whole. They obviously don't care much about that, but it is alarming that we might all be tarred with the same brush.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Silas
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 07:56 AM

Well Howard, you could say the same about bellowhead, fairport, albion band, steeleye - the list is endless.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 08:14 AM

Come on Silas, Howards right and I think your point is clever but so far off the point that it doesn't really help.

As a number of people have pointed out it looks like a marketing ploy that is more than a bit misleading. Do you think that's a good idea?

Do I detect the secret hand of Simon Cowell? I think we should be told

L in C#


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Silas
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 08:25 AM

Well, Les, Howard may well be right, but! Does it really matter. If these guys can put on a good show by using scratch bands or whatever and the 'end user' is happy what exactly is the problem? I don't think anyone would argue that playing in Cheilidh bands requires a lot of musical skill and dexterity, I have been doing on and off for 35 years, most bands play the same tunes - OK a practiced band may put in a few effects, stops etc, but in my experience this is more for the entertainment of the band than the audience who, frankly, most times would not know or recognise the tunes anyway. Basically, if they can start together, stop together and play in the same key, there is not much more to it than that. Its the caller that makes the difference really.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 08:37 AM

Well Silas, I guess I agree with most of that. Although

"I don't think anyone would argue that playing in Cheilidh bands requires a lot of musical skill and dexterity"

Is not true for me, it requires all of mine.

Does what they do matter? In all the world not much, in the world of folk, not a lot but why are they misleading people and why do they have to be so unpleasant?

L in C#


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Silas
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 08:43 AM

Hi Les. Well, to start a thread with their name and the word 'fraud' is not likley to win them over to start with, and I think they have been on the recieving end of much more unpleasantness than they have dished out. As I see it they are plugging a hole in the market, does it matter that they want to make money out of it? No, corse it don't, why should it? They are providing a service and expect to be paid for it, as do we all.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 09:38 AM

Ok,

L in C#


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Licence to Ceilidh
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 10:43 AM

I apologise that we're a bit delayed with our post, as we've only just been alerted to this thread.

We're concerned about being associated with the Ship band model so thought it best to explain:

LTC is a band like any other and most definitely not an agency or 'franchise'. Although we consider ourselves to be a professional band and focus a lot of resources on advertising - unlike The Ship Band we only target the surrounding areas of London and Sussex where our musicians are based, and charge more for traveling further (as we will actually be traveling rather than using other musicians local to the area).

Something that is true, is that on occasions we do put out 2 bands on the one night, but it is still 'Licence to Ceilidh': which we completely understand can be seen to be misleading, so just to explain: we would consider ourselves to be a collective - all of our players are full time professional musicians of a particularly high standard and so can often have other musical commitments which means they cannot play all of the ceilidhs (for instance our drummers play for some of the top west end shows, like Footloose and Grease) and so over the 10 years the band has been running, through the necessity of using and training up deps (in rehearsals - yes we do have them!) we have built up this collective of high quality, trained musicians who all play regularly with the band, thus enabling us to have two quality, rehearsed bands out at once (playing the same music!).

We're very keen to try and not mislead people with this so that's why we have numerous people on each instrument page on our website. We're open to showing different line-ups throughout our photos/videos on our site and also the many agency sites we're registered on (but do note the familiar faces that crop up a lot!).

We pride ourselves on the quality of all to do with LTC and so have two completely identical sets of top of the range PA, so all the equipment and music is exactly the same on every gig and quality is ensured through all of our equipment as well as players. As mentioned we do spend money on advertising, however over half of our work comes from word of mouth, repeat bookings and people having seen us at other events, which we think is a great testament to the quality of what we're doing.

We don't make a huge amount of money from LTC, but we make enough to get by and provide our friends who are all fantastic musicians with good work (we try to pay our players as much as we can and make sure it's in line with the going rate for musicians of that caliber).

I myself am what you'd call a 'folky': my parents folk singers and I've grown up at festivals and ceilidhs (never missed a Sidmouth yet!). I think the most important thing to note is: that any band that focuses on quality and integrity will be around for the long haul, those that don't are somewhat missing the point of music and thus wont be around for long!

Back to the original post: we're openly a Scottish Ceilidh band, so I don't think we'll be what you're looking for, but would most definitely recommend Cat Kelly, The Flying Chaucers or DanceCupola (derby based - only 2 hours from oxford).

Ali


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Chris Partington
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 01:39 PM

Have I missed something?
The most serious allegation from some on here seems to be that you book The Ship Band but a different band, or a scratch band, turns up on the back of a 'Ship Band' franchise.
The Ship Band website shows a lineup that usually consists of three named individuals on fiddle, accordian, and guitar, plus a named caller, plus for larger occassions named individuals on drums bass guitar/singer. They claim to be good at several styles - English, Scottish, Irish.
Where in this thread has it been demonstrated that this is not what you get?
What's misleading here?
The rest of it is just over-enthusiastic marketing, and an arrogant attitude, which is not exactly rare on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 01:41 PM

Hi Ali, thanks for dropping in.

You explain the differences well, and your clarity is admirable.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Interested
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 04:09 PM

Hello

I'm not a usual user of Mudcat but I have been alerted to this thread by a friend. I know some of the Ship Band boys and greatly admire their music, and their cheek ;) I have never depped for them but I have played with them in sessions and have always had a great time. I am glad that they are actively promoting themselves, wherever they might play. Musicians are generally quite transient types and why on earth shouldn't they advertise themselves as a national band? How far would a commercial band get by saying they only play in Stoke on Trent, or wherever? Whether they use no deps or 4 they are going out by that name and it would not be in their interests to send out a second rate line-up.

Power to their elbow I say for generating work for skint musicians! If it wasn't for these types I'd be forced into a normal boring job!I have depped for a number of well-known bands and I am damn grateful for the work. Depping is a professional career in its own right and thank god there are professional first rate ceilidh bands out there who use deps. It keeps the music alive too! It is exhilarating playing with different players and a decent musician can easily jam in with a band and add a bit more verve than there might otherwise be in the same stagnant line up, romping through the Rochdale Coconut Dance or whatever together for the millionth time together. I love ceilidh music but it is my bread and butter work, I don't want to be rehearsing tunes I've played a million times over, clients just rely on the fact that I will know them already and have a musical enough ear to be able to follow them. Communication on stage is also a bit of an art and it's pretty easy to spot where a change is coming if you look out for it.

I am saddened by what I've seen on Mudcat and think that our only hope for a progessive future in folk is in the young people who are NOT sat on the internet on a Friday night (like me!) but out there showing people what a vibrant lot we really are. Let's move forward and be as entrepreneurial as we possibly can be to get the music we all love out there, AND earning us money too! We are love our music yes but we all need to make a living too :) It's us against the corporate commercial crap, club together people and for god's sake lighten up, we are all on the same side here! You think this sort of stuff is underhand, it's nothing compared to what the big boys are up to in the commercial world.

Phew! I'm off to play some tunes, back in reality where I belong :)


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: BTNG
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 04:32 PM

I suppose this is all about that HUGE difference between QUALITY and quantity.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 06:52 PM

This is a thread started by a guest and it looks like another guest has given a pretty good account of the business and filled in some gaps in our first guest's understanding of the business of both promotion and filling in the band's ranks. Interesting reading.

SRS


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Jigs N Reels Agency
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 09:24 PM

Just back from a gig and re-reading.All calmer now,I see,on this front (and Mudcat have done some 'removing' of the odd post) and it is actually turning into a debate rather than a slanging match.I'm presuming the original guy has found a band by now and that this question is no longer the issue.
Speaking purely as an agent who deals with ceilidh,barn dance bands (and nothing else) I'll point out again my misgivings - and Adam can either heed or hiss.
The issue is not musicianship but representation.
I'm happy to assume that Ship's own regular musos are very capable (I've clocked the accord player Nic at Bromyard FF 'shower room' session/s and know how capable he is - even with a bandaged finger !)I'm also very happy to accept that 'skint or unskint' ceilidh band musos are lowly rewarded and,in my opinion,should be paid higher than currently - our own genre (and love of that genre) is partly to 'blame' for this.As an agent (any band dealing with me will presumably vouch for this) I never try to 'talk down' a band's fee (like some agents I can think of) or dictate what their rewards should be.In the wide wide world,folk music is undersold in comparison with other genres (but as a genre is less popular).That's just a fact.And here's some other facts !
Ceilidh bands are booked primarily on Saturdays/Fridays with some (increasingly) Sundays and a smidge of mid-week stuff for (ignoring Ceilidh Series events) weddings,birthdays,anniv's,f/raisers and corporate bashes.
THUS,an individual identifiable band (even with 2 line-ups from their 'collective' of musicians,not entirely uncommon) has a finite number of gigs per annum - AT BEST 150 gigs per annum as a particular band.
NOW,Ship Band advertise their band as being 'local' in some extremely far flung reaches from Bristol.I'd suggest that there is no way that their band can 'cover' more than 150 gigs given a nationwide (virtually) coverage - so,let's presume they get 150 gigs per annum..........their choice will be to
(a) turn down bookings 'cos they're booked
(b) offer ('introduce') an alternative band whom they would recommend (without any remuneration) who deal directly with the 'hirer'
(c) offer to recommend an alternative band (from whom Ship Band take a 'kick-back/commission/call what it what you like) thus making them an introductory agent without responsibilities to the 'hirer'
(d) offer to arrange a suitable,similar band and further offer to arrange 'the gig' taking a commission/percentage or whatever for their services in making the arrangement.
(e) offer an alternative band and act as the agent in drawing up a formal contract which becomes accepted,legally,between the band (artist/s) and the 'hirer'/client
In scenario (a) and (b) that's legitimate,understandable and they have done the 'skint' musos a favour.Applause !
In scenarios (c),(d) and (e) the Ship Band will,effectively,be acting as agents for others and will bear some responsibility,legally,for the performance of their recommended band.
IF they are agents,they should come under the regulations governing agencies - the main pre-requisite being.........YOU LET PEOPLE KNOW THAT YOU'RE AN AGENT !!!
Ourselves/bandsandmusicians/Random agency/Counties agency all make this clear that ...this is what we do.....so do several other agencies who don't really know a barn dance band from a barn door !! But they do know their responsibilities.
Some may think this sour grapes (but I've noticed no downturn in enquiries despite Adam's views).
THE POINT - if you're acting as an agent Adam - you need to let people know - there's rules,regs which you may or may not like/be aware of.And mis-representation is high up on their regs.This is not the 'heavy',just being straight with you.
I don't mind competition - I've had that for years on end - but if my suspicions are correct,you need to be very careful.Please don't take that as a warning,that's solid advice ! (And if you don't believe me,check out any old established agency you can think of !)
Chris Mulvey


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 04:55 AM

Thanks, Chris, for that very clear exposition of the situation.

I've been following the thread with some interest as I play in a ceilidh band in Sussex (Unreel, based in Ditchling). The ethics of what the Ship Band are doing have seemed questionable to me. Their uncalled for sneering at local bands - beards, shorts, etc. - doesn't get them any brownie points and, as a local ceilidh band member, I have to say that we consider ourselves shit hot and a damned good band.

The website's claim that they are the "UKs premiere ceilidh and barn dance band" sounds rather hollow to me when I know so many good bands of high quality just in my own area. And how can their claim be justified, given the nameless composition of their unknown scratch band members?


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 06:19 AM

It is the dishonesty, representing themselves as local to everywhere and representing different bands to be the same band, that I find offensive.

Mind you I thought the same in the latter respect about Village People too, and the recordings by - er - was it "Boney M"? - where the recordings were done by session musicians and a couple of models hired to wriggle attractively for live performances.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 06:46 AM

"a couple of models hired to wriggle attractively for live performances"

The Beech Inn, Beech Road, Chorlton, Manchester, M21 9EG, evry Wednesday

L in C# .


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Silas
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 06:55 AM

I think we are taking it too literally, a bit like 'Probably the best lager in the world' just over-hyped thats all. Just because they are possibly a scratch band does not mean they are not good.

Anyhow Will, I bet my band is shitter hotter than yours! ;-) we even do some tunes in Gm!!!!

I do agree that it is a tad misleading, but would the average person who is just trying to get a ceilidh band for a wedding be all that bothered?


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 08:32 AM

Gm? Bloody hell!


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Silas
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 08:34 AM

Yep! Gm AND with Hurdy Gurdy lead - how about that then?


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 08:46 AM

I'm not worthy... :-)


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Silas
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 08:51 AM

It is indeed a very humbling experience, and something that should not be undertaken lightly.

However - you DID manage post 100.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 09:04 AM

Eh well, I suppose you'll have to judge us for yourself, Silas. Here you go...

Unreel - "The Star Above The Garter"

Live at a birthday bash in Ditchling.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Silas
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 09:26 AM

OK, here is a band that I have played with in the past, complete with Hurdy Gurdy and Gm!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VINOdq03Lc

Not me playing guitar though.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 09:32 AM

Good stuff!


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Bernard
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 12:03 PM

Click the Unreel link above - showing how it should be done!!

That doesn't mean others don't... just that they do!


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Andy Rouse
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 01:13 PM

Got married at shillingford bridge 7 years ago and had a fantastic local band called 'Bonne Bouche ceilidh band'. they were really entertaining, got everyone dancing and wondered amongst the guests playing bits softly when breaks in dancing - don't know if they are still together - but thoroughly recommend them.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:12 PM

I wonder how much money this pretending to come from different towns actually makes them? Is it really worth the risk of getting done for gaining pecuniary advantage by deception or whatever...what would the offence be? Perhaps a lawyer could elucidate?
The Dubliners should maybe have thought of this(or the Houghton Weavers, or the Oldham Tinkers, come to that). They could have websites calling themselves the Skegnessers, or the Carlislers or whatever, and got lots more gigs.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: BTNG
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:15 PM

the thought of a "corporate" Dubliners does funny things to me, I'll try to forget...LOL Greg I do agree with you and your point about what would or could they be charged with. Do we have any legitimate legal representatives among Mudcatters who could clear this matter up?


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:04 PM

On the face of it it appears to be a breach of S. 2 of the Fraud Act 2006.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/contents


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 02:49 PM

Well, now we've done the downside, how about the upside?

If someone was looking for a good cheap folk-oriented band for a wedding reception in Gloucestershire (note, NOT pronounced "Glue" "Chester" "Shy" "Yer") what/who SHOULD they be looking for?

No I am not getting married.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 06:39 AM

Refresh


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Peter C
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 11:52 AM

They should be going to the Glosfolk web site, clicking on 'Dance' then 'Dance Bands' and checking out a few truly local (to Gloucestershire) bands!


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 12:00 PM

I have passed that on to the interested parties thanks


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 08:34 AM

It appears the organisation I work for has booked the Ship Band (or its Bristol incarnation) for its Xmas party. As it happens I'll be in Bristol that evening so I'm going along. I'll report back!


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 11:00 AM

.........perh. all ship fashion & Bristol shaped?? 8-)


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Les from Hull
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:22 PM

Bristol shaped - hmm!


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 03:34 AM

@Howards Jones?

How did the party in Bristol go? Were the band any good? Did everyone have good time?


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 03:58 AM

Unfortunately I couldn't attend the Bristol ceilidh - I was due to be down there for a course, which got cancelled at the last minute.

I'm told the Ship Band was very good and it was an enjoyable night. However I don't think it's their ability that has been questioned. The question is, if they were to be booked again, whether in Bristol or elsewhere, would you see the same lineup and would the quality of playing be the same? I can't answer that. I suspect the answer to the first is "No", or at least "Not necessarily" but that doesn't necessarily mean an alternative lineup would be any better or worse.

I think their marketing is misleading and I'd prefer them to be more open about their approach - if they are a collective rather than an established lineup why not say so? They say the customer doesn't really care whether or not a band is local, but the person booking them for my organisation certainly thought they were booking a Bristol band, and promoted it as such. However if they can guarantee consistency and assure their customers of an equally good event no matter who is playing then I can't see any significant harm done. It still leaves a bad taste in the mouth though.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Darowyn
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 04:42 AM

So, if I take it that the Ship Band are a random group of people from everywhere, how can I contact the members of the collective based in Stoke on Trent directly in order to talk them into doing an (ideally free) spot in a charity event for St Patrick's day nearby?
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Silas
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 04:50 AM

Well, Dave, I think you have a bloody cheek to ask people you don't know to do a free gig no matter that it is for charity.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 10:21 AM

There website now seems to include more musicians. My guess is they're a collective who put together a lineup for each gig depending on location and availability, as opposed to simply putting together a scratch band of whoever they can round up. I had hoped to have a chat with them to find out more.

My guess is that you might be able to find someone who would most likely participate in a gig in (say) Stoke-on-Trent, but it seems possible that the lineup may vary from gig to gig even in the same town.

This is of course pure speculation on my part, since the Ship Band have declined to explain themselves - not that they're under any obligation to of course.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 11:20 AM

Really Silas?

The vast majority of charity fundraisers are constantly having to ask total strangers to help out.

If you wanted to raise twenty grand, say, do you have ten thousand friends and acquaintances you could tap for a couple of quid each, or would you contact commercial organisations for a more realistic donation?

The very kind donors to the "Guide Cats for the Blind" project were not in the least put out by the fact that they had, mostly, never heard of Clive and Myself.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 11:22 AM

P.S. Those donations were of their time to make recordings, so they were all free gigs.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Silas
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 11:32 AM

Well Don, I do a lot of charity work myself, but I would not dream of asking perfect strangers to give their services for free.

Thing that tends to piss them off is the Bar is usually normal prices, yet the licencee is never asked to donate his profits to the charity, the people providing the venue rarely do it for sod all, same with caterers etc, its just the poor bloody band who are expected to perform for nothing, yet if they refuse, or even just ask for expenses, they are considered tight gits.

Way of the world I suppose.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,rudog
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 08:38 AM

wow - everyone is jumping to conclusions here - The Ship Band is not a franchise, they do not subcontract performers. They are all based in the South West - same musicians play each gig. Occasionally they have brought in a drummer or caller when another member hasn't been available to gig (they all have full time jobs).

They've played our events dozens of times, not only as performers but also running dance workshops and instrumental workshops, they also played our staff training weekend each year

Great performers, fixed band, original music as well as quality covers - perhaps a little over zealous in marketing- But its fair considering they play all over the UK

Highly recommended.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 09:46 AM

Fan Club President I presume, you waited over a year to tell us you like them ?

Dave H


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 05:44 PM

Strange that, rudog. GUEST, The Ship Band said different on 26 Oct 11 - 05:32 AM (and in a rather offensive manner):

Of course we use deps, everyone does, we just do it more efficiently and we regularly book musicians that would otherwise be performing in some of the UK's top performing folk bands and acts

The idea that a group of musicians that get together to rehearse the Rochdale Coconut Dance and compare notes on the beards hanging below the bottom rim of their short shorts once a week are more qualified as a band than the "scratch band" of professional / semi-professional musicians that we put together is laughable.


Considering the bad feeling generated BY spokespersons of the band in this thread, you would probably have been better advised to let sleeping (ru)dogs lie...


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Andy Growly
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:05 AM

Let me explain what the ship band is, for anyone who doesn't know.

It was started by a guy who knows his Google, and put work into getting a Google monopoly on "ceilidh band" anywhere in the country. So if you Google "ceilidh band Bristol" "The Ship Band, Bristol" come up as the top hit. If you Google "ceilidh band Manchester", "the Ship Band, Manchester" comes up as the top hit.

There is a video on their website that shows a good band, and they market themselves as The Top Ceilidh Band in the Country.

They they get bookings around the country, and create a band out of local musicians to do the gig. Sometimes an area will have a fixed "Ship Band", which explains why the band that someone has seen was the same band every time. Sometimes it will be a shifting band selected out of a pool of musicians. Meanwhile, the founder takes a cut on every gig, and lives luxuriously off the proceeds without doing anything.

Sometimes the band will be good. Sometimes they are terrible. It depends on who they get.

How fraudulent is this? I certainly don't like it. They are monopolising the web, preventing any other ceilidh band getting gigs, and thus slowly strangling the ceilidh band scene. Their founder is acting as a classic capitalist - living off unearned income based on exploiting a web monopoly. Their bands aren't always bad, but they sometimes are. And either way, they aren't the band in the video on the website. There is a difference between using the odd dep, and being a totally different product. Most bands need to put effort into creating something good as they get gigs on the basis of having a good reputation. The ship band don't. They get them on the basis of their dodgy advertising.

To be fair, it's not hugely different from what many big companies do. They monopolise the market through aggressive, rather dishonest marketing and drive everyone else out of business. They have some capitalist at the top who lives richly while doing nothing. The thing is that in the music scene, people generally treat each other a bit better than that.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: IanC
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:31 AM

This is clearly in breach of Advertising Standards so I have submitted a complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority who will be investigating the search.

If you'd like to complain, the site is here.

http://www.asa.org.uk/Consumers/How-to-complain.aspx

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:01 AM

I contributed to the discussion on E-Ceilidh. I have danced to "a" Ship Band at Sidmouth. The driving force is an excellent fiddler and comes from a folkie/morris family. My problem with the concept is that you don't know who will be in the line-up. In effect they are a band of deps - effectively.
They were danceable in the open on the sloping tarmac at the Anchor, Sidmouth- a (sort of) free dance event. But in an auditorium with a sprung wooden floor & a band full of deps - I am not so sure. They would have to prove it to me. And they will get their chance at Stroud Ceilidhs next year. I will spot any Gloucestershire members (if any). I don't choose the bands only publicise "Stroud Ceilidhs". Which start on Fri Sept 26 at Stroud Folk Festival with GB2H a local band with national credentials (Paul Burgess & Martin Brinsford are the B2 - eg)


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:06 AM

My list of bands does not include Oxon bands but nearby, if it is any use try cresby.com ceilidh bands


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 09:33 AM

I few test Google searches of "Ceilidh band" + county name. They seem to rank well in some counties but have been pushed off the first page in others.

A different band has some keyword stuffing in very small type at the bottom of their home page:

Top Ceilidh Band in all the following areas: Hertfordshire, Herts ,Hertford, London, Hemel Hempstead, Welwyn, St Albans. Also available in the following areas the 1st choice for Ceilidh bands in Buckinghamshire, Bucks, High Wycombe, Aylesbury, See the impressive list of venues where we have performed in FAQ's. Including: Ceilidh bands Oxford, Oxfordshire, Oxon etc. We are one of the top ceilidh bands in the UK. High energy and lots of fun. See video. Cambridge, Cambridgeshire, Top Ceilidh bands St Neots. Weddings in Bishops Stortford, As Professional Musicians we perform in all areas including: Chelmsford, Colchester, Essex etc. Ceilidh band playing sparking jigs and reels in the following areas: Ceilidh bands Berkshire, Berks Reading, Wokingham, Maidenhead. Windsor etc. Also venues in and around the Bedfordshire, Beds and areas, including: Milton Keynes etc. The is no travel cost in these areas.
Looking forward to 2014/15


I can't work out if this is a repeat of the Ship Band format or just some dodge web design.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: treewind
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 09:36 AM

"They are monopolising the web, preventing any other ceilidh band getting gigs, and thus slowly strangling the ceilidh band scene."

A bit of an exaggeration, though I'm no apologist for their marketing methods.
Anyway, I tried ceilidh Band Cambridge on Google and the Ship band only appeared as the second of two paid Google adverts, under London-based Licence to Ceilidh. My own band appeared third in the proper listings under the adverts, and we get enough work without having to pay Google for the privilege. (insert smug grin emoticon here)

Interestingly about half way down the page was an outfit described as "Cambridge-based band... drawing from a large pool of local talent". At least they are honest about what they do. The Cambridge University Ceilidh band is similar, being capable of pulling together two or three separate bands on the same night if lucky.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:17 AM

Where's the problem? Ceilidhs are Scottish, and when ths Scots vote to go their own way, they will become as relevant as Irish dances and the rest.
Now then, if some of you decided to get the EFDSS to act as cover for a replacement operation playing English folk from inside the tradition, and trademarked it, you might get somewhere, as well as funding the EFDSS, which is something they desperately need.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:46 AM

"Ceilidh" is a Scottish word, but for reasons which have been discussed exhaustively elsewhere the word has been adopted for a particular style of English folk dancing. South of the Border ceilidhs are very seldom Scottish, unless specifically advertised as such. Of course you sometimes get people turning up in Highland dress, but if you call it a "barn dance" they will turn up in cowboy hats and toy six-shooters, so you can't win.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:23 AM

Erm, Folk Dance, anyone?


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:38 PM

That's what people did at infants school


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mo the caller
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 05:57 PM

No, we did Country Dancing at primary school.

I describe myself as a traditional dance caller - and then offer all the options, 'barn dance', 'ceilidh' etc.
Though the experts might know the difference, when you are calling for a wedding there's no difference, it's what works on the night.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:10 PM

Ah! The Good Ole English Primary School Song Society! Explains it all...(flees to the Welsh Hills)


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: treewind
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:56 PM

"funding the EFDSS, which is something they desperately need."

The EFDSS have done remarkably well in the last 10 years at getting Lottery and other funding at a time when arts budgets are being cut everywhere else.
How do you think they managed the Full English and Take 6 projects?
I'm sure they could use more, but desperate is hardly the right word anymore.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:57 AM

Hate to say so, but they have failed to get the Heritage funding they were counting on: those funds were specifically for the projects in question. The Board Minutes they started publishing suddenly stopped as a result, December 2012's were not happy reading. A year ago they were begging the Choir for £50 000 to replace the curtains in Kennedy Hall, for example. That's desperate, in my book.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:54 AM

They don't even exist in Yorkshire.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 09:09 AM

Ceilidh is a gaelic word
modern usage, a céilidh or ceilidh /ˈkeɪli/ is a traditional Gaelic social gathering, which usually involves playing Gaelic folk music and dancing. It originated from Ireland and Scotland, but is now common throughout the Irish and Scottish diasporas.
Howard Jones please note, it is irish and scottish.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:07 AM

"The Board Minutes they started publishing suddenly stopped as a result"

It's amazing how someone with internet access can write such bollocks.

A quick google reveals that EFDSS board minutes are freely available up to Nov 2013. http://www.efdss.org/efdss-about-us/governing-board

Since the meetings are quarterly the latest meeting has probably only recently happened, so the minutes are probably not ready for web publication.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Jabez Clegg
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:18 AM

I know of a few musicians that have been involved in the Ship Band over the years and they have all been of excellent players and I have no doubt that the ceilidhs they put on are of a good standard.

Their online marketing is a bit cheeky (in so far as you could get the impression you were supporting a local band) but how many people booking them would actually care?

To call them a fraud is certainly unfair. Anyone that booked them would get what they paid for.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:15 PM

"modern usage, a céilidh or ceilidh /ˈkeɪli/ is a traditional Gaelic social gathering, which usually involves playing Gaelic folk music and dancing"

That is defintely not the MODERN usage. But then a fictional Czech character wouldn't be aware of that.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:45 PM

It may not be the modern usage in England but I'd be inclined to believe Dick on this as regards the other parts of these islands as he is resident in Ireland and gets about a bit.

There is an e-ceilidh internet group for discussions of English ceilidh dance but I doubt they would claim there is only one meaning of the word - there's a reason they add the 'e'.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:17 AM

Dick, 'ceilidh' is the Scottish Gaelic spelling. Whenever I've seen the word in an Irish context it's been spelled 'ceili'. However you live there so you will know better than I whether the 'dh' spelling is used there too.

In both cases, the modern usage within folk music is different from the original usage.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:37 AM

actually the Irish diaspora prefer ceili even for Irish Set dancing, as well as the "Saturday evening dance". And sure, don't they call them Fleadh as well? an evening of artistic merriment of many kinds.

An Irish ex-girlfriend I had been coaxing to go to a ceilidh, and she (protestant NI) had been saying "what is this ceilidh you talk of?" When we got there she said "sure it is just like a Saturday evening dance!"

As I said on EC - if I think I have been taken for an idiot I usually say "NEXT!"


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:42 AM

Ceilidh is a word well used in Ireland, there is a programme on RTE Radio one every Saturday night called Ceilidh House, presented by banjo wizard Keiran Hanrahan, that's good enough for me.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:44 AM

FWIW language is for communicating concepts and if people understand it it is the right word. the word police have no jurisdiction with teenagers ! Neither the marketing fraternity. & Don't even mention estate agents!

Now which meaning and era do you want for "hot" or "cool"? Or:
gay - heterosexually promiscuous, happy & outgoing, or homosexual? Pick your era (give or take 100 years).

Language isn't static, the French know that (in actualité).


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:50 PM

Dave H: it's actually spelled "Ceili House"
RTE Radio 1 Ceili House
in line with the usual Irish spelling.

Mr Red, "Fleadh" in recent times refers to a music festival, mostly music and singing often with an element of competition, usually taking place over several days, rather than an evening.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 10:56 AM

tell that to the Irish diaspora in - say - Kidlington eg. More display dancing that ceili but again tell that to those there.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 11:47 AM

The standard modern spelling is "Kayleigh".


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Noreen
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 01:01 PM

Mr Red, sorry, was that a reply to me? Are you saying Kidlington has a Fleadh? I'd be interested to hear more about it.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: JHW
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 07:40 AM

Whitbread (remember them?) did Trophy real ale all over the country but it was a different beer brewed by their nearest brewery, depending where you were. Greenall Whitley did something similar.


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