'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia

Subject: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 01:05 AM

I suspect that, although Van Diemen's Land was indeed the old name for the island of Tasmania, the name was used in much convict folksong and folklore for Australia in general ~~ "That Fatal Shore", as one of the songs calls it, used as the title [The Fatal Shore] for Robert Hughes 1987 distinguished history of convict transportation to Australia.
~~ Perhaps it provided better rhymes and was rhythmically easier. Can anyone think of any examples of songs where this appears to be so, apart from VDL which, in many versions, seems to me to take as its subject Australian Transportation in general. Or does anyone disagree with this proposition?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 01:16 AM

I always think of VDL as Tasmania - we find other songs abut Botany Bay, Moreton Bay, etc.

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: Helen
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 01:23 AM

I disagree, because each of the convict settlements were specifically named in songs: Moreton Bay, Van Dieman's Land, Botany Bay (i.e. a part of Sydney) or New South Wales (NSW) which is now a very large state, but it would have referred to Sydney initially, then included further north e.g. Newcastle.

I'm no good at listing the songs, but those are the places I have heard referred to in the songs. The places were separated by huge distances - in horse and cart or shipping times - and would not have been considered to be interchangeable. I doubt whether the concept of Australia as a whole continent would have hit home until much later.

According to a quick search, Wikipedia says:
Matthew Flinders circumnavigated the continent from 1801 to 1803

and further down the page, the article speculates that Flinders may have been one of the first people, if not THE first person to refer to the continent as Australia, in 1804.

Helen
(in Newcastle, NSW)

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 02:04 AM

The VDL settlements were first established in 1825 and the colony was renamed as Tasmania in 1846. The old name may have lingered so we have a possible earliest date for the songs in question.

We should not fall into the error of assuming that the songs are necessarily geographically or historically accurate. Singers in the British Isles could easily havbe taken VDL as a generic name for the Australian convict settlements.

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: Helen
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 03:51 AM

Moreton Bay, written by Frank MacNamara, aka Frank the Poet

'I've been a prisoner at Port Macquarie
At Norfolk Island and Emu Plains
At Castle Hill and at cursed Toongabbie
At all these settlements I've been in chains
But of all places of condemnation
And penal stations in New South Wales
To Moreton Bay I have found no equal
Excessive tyranny each day prevails'


Frank MacNamara, aka Frank the Poet was transported to Australia as a convict in 1832, and died in 1861 at Mudgee, which is about 100 miles inland (west) of Newcastle. He spent some time in Newcastle too, and Parramatta (west of Sydney), and Van Dieman's Land. He was a prolific poet and some well known songs are attributed to him.

It's feasible that the names of the convict settlements are known in songs and poems to some extent through his written works.

I think it's possible that songs and poems could have been written on British and Irish soil, with no real knowledge of the geographical locations, but I have never noticed inconsistencies in songs which indicate this.

As I said before, and to explain it more fully, I am useless at remembering songs and poems word-for-word (blame it on my dyslexia)so I am only commenting on the basis of what I remember, and leaning heavily on Mr/Ms Google's assistance, so I'm all ears for what other people think on the topic.

Helen

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 04:09 AM

Okay,
I know Wikipedia should only be used for initial research, and sources then checked, But...
According to This Page 'Transportation' of criminals was First to America, and then to Australia (from 1788), and Van Dieman's Land (from 1803).

While I agree that We should not fall into the error of assuming that the songs are necessarily geographically or historically accurate it would be a worse error to start with the supposition that they are inaccurate.

Unless there is some reason to believe that a song which mentions VDL actually means Australia, I would take it that VDL means VDL.

Surely 'Occam's razor' applies.

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 05:33 AM

The Black Velvet Band has you transported to Van Diemen's Land.

The Black Velvet Band

Her eyes they shone like the diamonds
You'd think she was queen of the land
And her hair hung over her shoulder
Tied up with a black velvet band.
In a neat little town they call Belfast
Apprenticed to trade I was bound
And many an hour's sweet happiness
I spent in that neat little town.
Till bad misfortune came o'er me
That caused me to stray from the land
Far away from my friends and relations
To follow the black velvet band.

Well, I was out strolling one evening
Not meaning to go very far
When I met with a pretty young damsel
Who was selling her trade in the bar.
When I watched, she took from a customer
And slipped it right into my hand
Then the Watch came and put me in prison
Bad luck to the black velvet band.

Next morning before judge and jury
For a trial I had to appear
And the judge, he said, "You young fellows...
The case against you is quite clear
And seven long years is your sentence
You're going to Van Dieman's Land
Far away from your friends and relations
To follow the black velvet band."

So come all you jolly young fellows
I'd have you take warning by me
Whenever you're out on the liquor, me lads,
Beware of the pretty colleen.
She'll fill you with whiskey and porter
Until you're not able to stand
And the very next thing that you'll know, me lads,
You're landed in Van Dieman's Land.

CC

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 07:36 AM

So, was Van Dieman the Captain of the ship that discovered Tasmania or was it named for the man who funded the voyage?

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: Helen
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 07:39 AM

Nigel, I totally agree about being wary of relying on wikipedia, but it's useful for refreshing my memory on the Oz history I was taught about 45 years ago.

This wikipedia article on
Van Diemen's Land states that Abel Tasman "discovered" it (i.e. the first recorded European contact with the island) in 1642. Captain Cook "discovered" NSW in 1770, and the First Fleet arrived in 1788 with a large number of convicts on board. From that time, NSW was set up as a penal colony, but the first article states:

'From the 1830s to the 1853 abolition of penal transportation (known simply as "transportation"), Van Diemen's Land was the primary penal colony in Australia. Following the suspension of transportation to New South Wales, all transported convicts were sent to Van Diemen's Land. In total, some 75,000 convicts were transported to Van Diemen's Land, or about 40% of all convicts sent to Australia."

But, if you look at the info I posted above about Frank the Poet, he was initially transported to Sydney in 1832 and was later sent to a number of penal settlements and finally to Van Diemen's Land for being very naughty. His sentence was commuted and he was made a free man some time later, and that's how he came to die in NSW.

So, I'm thinking that:
1. the place names for the penal settlements mentioned in songs and poems were likely to be specific and not generic,
2. If the song was written (or modified either consciously or in the folk tradition) around the 1830's or after, then Van Diemen's Land was specific for the place the convicts would have been transported to *at that time*.

I'm thinking as I write, so I am writing but I may be wrong (pun intended). :-)

Helen

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: Helen
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 07:41 AM

Kendall,

The article I linked to above states that:

'Van Diemen's Land was the original name used by most Europeans for the island of Tasmania, now part of Australia. The Dutch explorer Abel Tasman was the first European to land on the shores of Tasmania. Landing at Blackman's Bay and later having the Dutch flag flown at North Bay, Tasman named the island Anthoonij van Diemenslandt in honour of Anthony van Diemen, the Governor-General of the Dutch East Indies who had sent Tasman on his voyage of discovery in 1642.'

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 10:52 AM

There is no reason to doubt that "VDL" means "VDL."

What individual singers may have thought it meant is another question. Many of them must have known only that it was one of those convict places Down Under.

Even among today's American college freshmen, geographical knowledge is awful. I can recall students who thought Spain was near Mexico, that England and Great Britain were separate nations, and that England and Scotland were separate islands.

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: Helen
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 05:02 PM

Yep, Lighter, I agree on all points.

I think that here in Australia we know more about American history and geography than we do about our own history, mainly through TV and movies, so it is no surprise that people outside Australia don't have a detailed knowledge of Oz either.

This is an interesting thread topic. Thanks MtheGM for posing the question, but what are your thoughts.

Helen

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 05:17 PM

I doubt if people making the songs worried too much about which part of Australia might be involved. It's quite likely that if some acquaintance was being transported down under you'd assume it was to Van Diemen's Land, if that was the name associated with other people who'd been sent there, and if you were into making songs you might well use that. But it's all purely speculative. Geographical knowledge isn't necessarily common knowledge.

After all if you asked half the population where Tasmania was, they'd quite likely think it was somewhere near Liverpool.

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 06:59 PM

MtheGM, if you look back down at my Racial Stereotypes thread, you'll see a post in which I mentioned that I left something out in my response to your question re Van Diemen's Land= Australia as a whole.

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: Helen
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 07:04 PM

And if you asked an eastern Aussie where Liverpool was, we'd say it's near Parramatta (which is near "cursed Toongabbie" as quoted by Frank the Poet, and not far from Emu Plains and Castle Hill).

:-)

Geography is relative (i.e. it depends whether you have relatives living nearby).

Helen

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: GUEST,Donal
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 09:36 PM

I forget the specific song which I came across on the 'net some time ago, but it raised my eyebrows a bit because it referred to seeing VDL from somewhere in the Indian Ocean, I thought that the poet must have had good eyes indeed, so there might be something in MtheGM's idea.

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 10:17 PM

The songs I first heard about 'transportation' made me think that VDL meant Australia. I was unaware years ago that prisoners centuries back were often political prisoners. Ignorance on my part. That said, what songs differentiate the two?

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 11:21 PM

-Thanks MtheGM for posing the question, but what are your thoughts.-

They are there in my OP, Helen ~~

-I suspect that, although Van Diemen's Land was indeed the old name for the island of Tasmania, the name was used in much convict folksong and folklore for Australia in general-

Hence the thread.

Best

~Michael~

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 08:05 AM

I suspect that one reason for Van Diemen's Land being preferred for songs might be that it sounds like "that demon's land".

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 09:22 AM

And it's easier to rhyme with than either "Tasmania" or "Australia."

"Chain ya"?

"Pain ya"?

"Jail ya"?

"Failure"?

Well, not impossible....

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 12:23 PM

"Down under" gives you wonder, blunder, thunder and chunder.

Of course England, or Britain,are a lot trickier, but that never led to people using the tern "Isle of Wight", though that is a lot easier...

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: Helen
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 03:43 PM

McGrath of Harlow, I like your analogy!

Re: the thread topic, Van Diemen's Land is no more Australia, than Hawaii is the United States of America, or the Isle of Wight is England or Britain. I guess the man (now sadly deceased) who made my Celtic harp hit the nail on the head when he once said, "never let the truth get in the way of a good story".

Helen

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 06:35 PM

I didn't say it was, Helen. I simply suggested it was sometimes mistakenly used that way in transportation ballads, perhaps thru ignorance or confusion. or perhaps because rhythmically more pleasing or effective. Just see all such suggestions in threads above. And, as my cousin Michael Winner sez in his tv ads ~

Relax, dear: it's only a thread.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Nov 11 - 09:02 AM

Walter Pardon's version of VDL has a verse which commences thus:

As we marched into Sydney town
Without no more delay
A gentleman he took me
His bookkeeper to be

Is there a Sydney in Tasmania?

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Nov 11 - 09:45 AM

Convicts were sentenced to transportation, not to a particular place. They probably didn't know where they were going until they got there, furthermore their friends and family would not know either. Unless they were lucky enough to be literate, they simply disappeared.

And some of them never left Britain at all, being confined for their whole sentence in insanitary hulks (decommissioned naval vessels)in the Thames estuary- see Great Expectations. As in Great Expectations, an escapee from the hulks would be classed as a "returned convict" and subject to the death penalty.

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: BTNG
Date: 08 Nov 11 - 09:47 AM

Van Diemen's Land was the original name used by most Europeans for the island of Tasmania.

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 11 - 09:59 AM

I think you are a bit confused as to the plot of Great Expectations, Paul. Magwitch & Compeyson were confined in the hulks awaiting transportation. After their escape, they were recaptured and eventually in fact transported. It was only after Magwitch had returned, to visit Pip to whom he had made over the fortune he had made by prospering in the Antipodes, that he became liable to execution as a returned transport. He could certainly never have had any 'Great Expectations' to pass on to Pip, who had unwillingly aided him after his escape from the hulks, which Magwitch had romanticised as willing aid & kindness (Pip mistakenly believing his good fortune to emanate from Miss Havisham), had he remained in the hulks, could he?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 11 - 10:02 AM

BTNG ~ Yes, we all know that, thank you. That is the whole point of this thread Please don't append the obvious to long threads which you obviously haven't read ~ it is peculiarly irritating.

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 10:01 AM

Snuffy's post 8 nov 0902 am seems to med to demonstrate conclusively the point I was moved to OP this thread by ~ that VDL became confused in the folk mind, at least up to a point, with Oz as a whole.

Thanks, Snuffy.

~M~

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 10:06 AM

MtheGM your patronising attitude annoys me to no end..I think we all know the plot to Great Expectations...oh and I had read the whole thread before posting, seems to me the usual arguments had broken out...so don't waste my timee

~ it is peculiarly irritating

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 11:05 AM

To say that "VDL became confused in the folk mind... means with Oz as a whole" is to say very little. Anyone who would assume the two were identical would have had such a vague notion of Australia and Tasmania in the first place that the idea of "confusion" hardly seems to be applicable.

For such people, VDL, regardless of detail, was just "that place far away where they send convicts to be slaves. The animals there are odd too, so I've heard." Some may have assumed that Australia, Tasmania, and Van Dieman's Land were three different places with shared characteristics, with VDL the most prominent.

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 11:35 AM

BTNG ~ Paul Burke, to whom, not to you, my reply was addressed, clearly did not know the plot of Gt Expectations, did he? ~ or he wouldn't have made that mistake about the nature of the hulks, or the penalty to be expected for escaping from them.

If you had read the thread, then what was the point of posting, tout court, a statement of what we had all clearly demonstrated we were perfectly aware already ~ apart from the joy of seeing your own nickname in print? Really cannot see what contribution you imagined yourself to be making.

~M~

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 12:02 PM

first off...let's take this slowly so you understand...first off I have no particular emotion is "seeing my name in print" got that?...good, I knew you would.

now....about Paul Burke's posting, he merely using Great Expectations as a point of reference he did not actually quote anything from the said book (with me so far...? good) PB's only over-sight, as far as I can see, is the use of the word would instead of could, it was a matter of a judge or magistrate's discretion as to what punishments were to be meted out for escaping the hulks, and that included hanging, though most often the convict was flogged and confined to ship instead of being sent on the work parties.

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 12:14 PM

"As in Great Expectations,[emphasis mine] an escapee from the hulks would be classed as a "returned convict" and subject to the death penalty", was what Paul wrote, BTNG.

No escapee from the hulks is so subject in Gt Exps {note Paul's intro word "As", please - he might not be 'quoting' from the book, but he is obviously referring directly to [what he takes to be] its plot}. They are, after recapture, then transported; and it is only then, after one of them returns, that he is subject to the death penalty.

The law might or might not have been as you describe in your last post [tho I should be interested to know what your legal/historical qualifications for speaking with such dogmatic apparent authority may be]; but insofar as they refer to Paul's account of what happens in Dickens' novel, they are, at best, only of marginal relevance, if of any at all.

~M~

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 12:28 PM

they are relevant alright...and let me refer to my late father's papers , he was a barrister and one of his hobbies was the law as regards to transportatation and the returning convict, if they ever returned...oh a degree in history on my part is useful

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 12:30 PM

'I have no particular emotion is "seeing my name in print"'

We have only your word for this. Might you not just be something of an interested party? You will have to produce better evidence of this ~ a disinterested witness who can testify to the truth of this assertion, say ~ if you are to convince the jury of its truth.

As you yourself might say ~~

GOT THAT?

Good; I knew you would...

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 12:35 PM

Mr GM- I'm sorry I brought GE up. It was JUST AN EXAMPLE of prisoners being sentenced to transportation, but not actually leaving Britain. And its true that the penalty was the same as if they had actually travelled to Australia (any part), though it's also true that the death penalty was exacted in many fewer cases than was potentially the case. The point was that "Van Diemen's Land" and "Botany Bay" were used metaphorically, and that few convicts (or for that matter judges) would have any exact or even vague geographical notion of where either place was. See Paddy's walk to China.

As for the penalty, contemporary evidence from Google Books. Note that only in the case of Millbank prison was a second escape required before the offence was capital.

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 12:36 PM

Crossposted ~ sorry.

Indeed, your qualifications and background are impeccable, and I should be greatly at fault if I did not concede that you are eminently qualified to have expounded the law as you did; and I am extremely grateful to have been instructed in this matter: one is never too old to learn.

I feel I must urge, however, that Paul did refer to Gt Expcts more directly than you appeared to admit; and that he did get that bit of the plot wrong, to the extent that the points you make, tho, as I have admitted, certainly accurate in general terms, are not of direct relevance to the situation of the convict Magwitch, Pip's actual benefactor, as it is narrated in the novel.

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 12:40 PM

Thank you, sender of the internal message to me, you're right..one more brief thing and then I shall desist from wasting my time.

The First Transportation Fleet (set sail on 13th,May 1787)

a contemporary newspaper report notes:

From the "LONDON GAZETTE", October 1788

CONVICTS TRANSPORTED TO THE NEW COLONY
    Your Correspondent looks to our Readers and has ascertained
as far as possible the names of those who have been convicted of
crimes in the Country of England since 1783 and have been
sentenced by His Majesty's Judges to be sent to that part of New
Holland known as New South Wales
    Your Correspondent looks to our Readers for their indulgence
to involuntary errors and omissions, and trust general attention
will secure us from trespassing on their kindness too often.

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 12:41 PM

Thank you, Paul. That too was very interesting. But you would surely agree with me that your example of GE was not entirely accurate, as Magwitch, altho he had spent some time in the hulks, had "actually travelled to Australia" subsequently; and only then, in the novel, had he become liable to execution ~ a point that BTNG has yet to concede.

~M~

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 12:46 PM

Nor has he yet explained the point of his post of 08 Nov 11 - 09:47 AM

which read in full ~~

"Van Diemen's Land was the original name used by most Europeans for the island of Tasmania"

which was a fact which every contributor to this thread had already demonstrated they perfectly well knew already.

So, I ask again, what point did he imagine himself to be making?

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 01:02 PM

M the GM (roaring like a lion- or was that the other lot): it's off the point, which is about the usage of geographical terms in certain traditional songs or published ballads from the late 18th to mid 19th century. Please don't, btween you, fuck up a useful thread with pointless bickering.

By a lonely prison wall I heard a young girl calling
Michael they are taking you away,
And leaving us forlorn to face the neighbours' scorn-
You confused Van Diemen's Land with Botany Bay!

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 01:25 PM

Actually, Paul, as it happens Louis B Mayer of MGM was, despite slight difference in spelling, my 1st cousin twice removed, i.e. my paternal grandfather's 1st cousin. That is the way all my Calif cousins, of whom I have met several on visits over here, do spell it.

Glad you think it a useful thread ~ note who the OP was!

~M~

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 01:31 PM

Oh ~~ almost forgot ~~~

ROAR   ROAR

R O A R RRRRR

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 01:51 PM

Great Expectsations:
I've read the book seen the film(s) have the baseball cap sweatshirt and mouse pad...what's you're point?

Apropos of absolutely nothing,Dickens did take liberties with so called facts he was a journalist..and we all know about that sort don't we?

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 02:34 PM

My point about Gt Expects was NOT MADE TO YOU, BTNG, but to Paul.

So butt out.

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 12:19 AM

... and as to your "what's you're point?" ~~

SPELLING! FOR SHAME!!!!!

Subject: RE: 'Van Diemen's Land' to mean Australia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:04 PM

Now with "Great Expectsations" it might be a whole different story. Someone should write it...