Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC [2011]

Subject: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 10:56 AM

Great man, did an aweful lot of good and a great DJ in his time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-15507374

RIP The man who tried to fix it for many many people.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 11:14 AM

Oh No!

Or maybe Oh-oh-oh-oh No!

Listening to Tony Blackbutrn on Pick of the Pops earlier today and realising what a huge difference DJs made to my generation. JS was one of the best and most influential.

RIP Jim.

DtG

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 11:28 AM

I was really sorry when I heard this sad news; an interesting person who did a lot of charitable work and an important figure to those of us who live in Yorkshire :) He will never be forgotten.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: bill\sables
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 11:48 AM

I worked with Sir Jimmy on many occasions when I was with Yorkshire Television and always found him a most unassuming man. He never forgot his roots and was always ready to give a helping hand to those who needed it. He will be very much missed.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Bernard
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 12:00 PM

'Only the good die young'... not necessarily... sometimes the really good have to hang on until their work is done.

RIP Jimmy.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 01:10 PM

Sorry to see him go. He certainly made something of his life though.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Girl Friday
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 01:49 PM

Top Of The Pops Pick Of The Pops, Saville's Travels, The Under The Bedclothes club on Luxembourg, Jim'll Fix It. This man was so much part of my youth. Not to mention his work with the disabled. I met him several times when I was a member of a club for disabled young people.

We used to go a Christmas Party at The Finsbury Park Empire, hosted by Jim, with live bands, often "The Sweet" would be playing.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 05:41 AM

He was indeed a wonderful person, but I always had the impression he was rather lonely and a bit 'different' in some way from other people. Perhaps he decided to dedicate his life to trying to improve the lot of his fellow human beings as an antidote to the inner sadness. Just a feeling I had, no evidence for it!

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 06:22 AM

Very sad.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 07:10 AM

I remember the Teen and Twenty Disc Club with affection.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 07:19 AM

Well now, can you really imagine Jim resting in peace?!

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: fat B****rd
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 08:21 AM

RIP Sir Jimmy

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Fiolar
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 08:27 AM

RIP Jimmy. Will be missed.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Treacle Bolly
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 10:27 AM

A real memory test - can any former TTDC members recall Elvis's membership number. Was it 11321 ?

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 12:00 PM

Jim has finally fixed it..............

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: bradfordian
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 12:32 PM

T.T.D.C member(lapsed) Radio Luxenbourg, Top of the Pops, Jimmy's hospital (Leeds). Did he ever light that big fat cigar?
Thanks Jimmy, these have been wonderful decades listening to you over the airwaves.
R.I.P.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 12:37 PM

RIP, of course. But when I was a kid watching him on TV, I found him a bit scary...

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Emberto Uco
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 12:57 PM

"when I was a kid watching him on TV, I found him a bit scary..."

and google provides many alarming rumours and bizarre allegations about the covered up private life activities
of this 'great man' and his dodgier show biz mates and powerful 'establishment' associates
as to why that might be so...

For the sake of childhood memories I hope none of it is true...



RIP Sir Jim you wily old enigma...

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: nager
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 04:38 PM

I met him on occasions at Stoke Mandeville Hospital when I lived and worked nearby at Aylesbury in Bucks, back in the 1970s. Wonderful man who did a lot of great work for the community. RIP Jimmy.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Brian May
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 05:29 PM

My wife knew Jimmy when he was at the height of his fame. He used to go to the club she was managing in York., he was wonderful with all the staff, generous, considerate and down to earth.

She says he was an absolute gentleman at all times, even running her home in the early hours to York and having tea and biscuits with her mum and her before driving on to Scarborough to see 'the Duchess'.

The world is a dimmer place without him in it.

RIP Sir Jimmy, I wish I'd a memory like that too. Never heard anything bad about him - I'm glad about that.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: stallion
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 04:19 AM

Jimmy used to bring his Mum, the Duchess, to St Josephs Church Newby,Scarborough, and lean against a pillar at the back of Church throughout the Mass, the next one to the one I was leaning against! (for a quick exit at the end!)He always stuck a fiver in the plate, made my jaw drop, that was equivelant to twenty five pints of beer back then! I don't think he was lonely he was a friendly guy who used his time and wealth to ease the suffering of his fellow people and probably regarded the whole population as friends but I think he had a small cadre of mates, they new who they were. Some of the stories maybe half true but that doesn't detract from his philanthropic work, largely unsung and unpublicised. I get hung up with Mega Rich people who announce to the world they are going to use some of their money to find a cure for something by starting a Joe Fat Cat Foundation. Jimmy wasn't one of those he just went about his business of making the lives of dissadvantaged people easier RIP Jimmy and fond memories

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Bugsy
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 04:44 AM

"So long Guys and Gals"

R.I.P Jimmy

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: vectis
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 07:32 AM

When my elderly Mum was having her cateracts done in Stoke Mandeville Hospital she asked if he would visit her. Not only did he go to see her but gave her a certificate to say they had had a five minute affair, which she treasured to the day she died.

A lovely chap.

Bye Bye Jim and thanks for spreading a little happiness here and there.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Musket
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 09:12 AM

He came into our pit canteen one day as part of a fund raising effort with the union for a proposed hospice.

He was wearing a gold track suit with a sequin cape in silver, (his old wrestling cape) and the usual gold dripping from his body, necklaces, rings etc. Oh, and the most amazing platform Doc Marts in shiny purple and gold motifs.

We were either in overalls or jeans / T shirts whatever.

We were pissing ourselves laughing.

He asked those on the "dirty" tables, (overalls only,) what they were wearing. Answer - Our work clothes.

He pointed to himself and said "My work clothes."

"Mind you," he said. "I wear the buggers all the time."

RIP

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 09:20 AM

He was a big part of my youth too, I remember seeing him on Thank your Lucky Stars when I was little I was so impressed by this zany character. RIP Jimmy you will be missed.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: jacqui.c
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 10:04 AM

RIP Jim - sad to see you go but the good that you did will live on.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 03:42 PM

I'd heard rumours about him, many years ago, but nothing was ever proved. be interesting to see what this throws up.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Felix Titling
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 04:34 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcFE7HEgX3g

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 04:18 AM

Is an Obit thread really the place to link to accusations made about a man who can no longer defend himself?
Maybe this thread should be closed, and anyone wishing to post accusations could open a BS thread.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 04:22 AM

Very sad that he has joined the group of Jonathan King, Pete Townsend and Gary Glitter

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 04:38 AM

No he hasn't.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Musket
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 04:42 AM

Pete Townsend?

I had no idea Saville could play a guitar? I thought his rings were too big and heavy.

The allegations against Townsend were found to be a mistake. He was naive in how he conducted the research for the charitable foundation he was working with, but misinterpretation and an apology is no reason to perpetuate myth.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 04:46 AM

It's Townshend.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 04:47 AM

If you want to blacken someone's name, at least learn to spell it correctly.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 04:51 AM

The 60s and 70s (probably more the 70s) were a very permissive and promiscuous time. It was also a time when young men with money, fame and status were able to pretty much indulge any desire or whim they wished with little or no fear of the consequences. Sometimes the people they used to fulfill their desires and urges were consenting (albeit often rather stupid) adults and sometimes (possibly not that often, but sometimes) they were not.

We've heard a lot in the last few years about priests abusing young people in order to slake their own urges because, in a similar way, they believed they would never be brought to account. There have been some attempts at defending them along the lines of 'Well, it was a different time' but, quite correctly, no right-thinking person would be likely to accept that defence nowadays.

Something similar could be said about people (men especially) in showbusiness. They knew they were in a position of power and they were surrounded by people who would facilitate their wishes and desires in order to maintain favour with them - or in order to maintain their own positions of advantage. This goes for TV, pop music, theatre, cinema and almost every form of mass entertainment.

If we're going after priests for exploiting and abusing young people in the past (quite rightly) shouldn't we also be going after rock stars, movie stars, TV celebrities, casting directors and so on as well? And what does it say if we're not?

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Megan L
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 05:12 AM

It is very easy to say someone did something when they are no longer alive to call you a liar.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 05:38 AM

That's quite true, of course, but to take that argument to it's logical conclusion we'd never speak ill of anyone after their death.

I think Jimmy Saville is only part of the issue. He may or may not have been an abuser or he may have just been eccentric and an extrovert. There's good and bad in most people and whichever aspect prevails at any time depends on a number of factors - not least of which is the likelihood (or not) of being brought to account for your actions. Clearly a lot of people feel very well-disposed to him on account of his charity work.

I think a great many areas of the arts and entertainment are largely populated by people who feel they live by a different set of standards to the 'little' people beyond their own world. I think the theatre, for instance, is very like that and I suspect that cinema and TV are the same.

I just wonder if we're in a period now when people who thought in the 60s and 70s that there were no consequences to their actions (particularly where young women are involved) are going to find that they were mistaken. And it would be preferable, obviously, that people who are still alive were able to defend themselves - if they can.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Felix Titling
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 05:46 AM

Maybe not so easy when that person was a TV celebrity (or priest, or teacher) who used their position and infuence to sexually abuse you as a kid.

Still, what else is Mudcat here for? One of the remits on Google says Folklore Collection, which is precisely what we have here. Even when I was a kid Savile's sexual preferences were the subject of (detailed) playground speculation. With this in mind, here's a choice piece of such Savilelore which is doubly interesting as folklore as many people actually claim to remember the dialogue from broadcast. Warning: Do not read if easily offended.

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rogerb/jokes/HIGNFY.txt

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 06:17 AM

I imagine opinions will change once the documentary goes on air on television on Thursday evening.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: selby
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 06:47 AM

There was in one of the papers yesterday where apparently he watched a sex act of a rock star (who is still alive) with a young girl. This is where I struggle if he did and now we are bringing to account these people why are we avoiding the rock star whom he watched? I can't remember who said it or in what context but surly in a case concerning sexually predators if there is evidence Publish and be dammed.
Keith

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 07:00 AM

"It is very easy to say someone did something when they are no longer alive to call you a liar."

It's actually very difficult for adults who were abused as children to ever come forward to tell the truth. Trauma does that to you. The death of an abuser often frees a victim emotionally from the remaining fear of the assailant.

In any event, evidently accusations against Saville were filmed by Newsnight from now middle-aged women who attended a school for vulnerable girls, all claiming to have been abused by Saville, both when he visited the school and when he took them to the BBC to 'reward' them. The BBC shelved the Newsnight programme and never passed on the materials to police. I'm happy to see these ugly revelations come to light. So many people in positions of power have felt themselves to be untouchable. Happily, that is increasingly less so.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 07:02 AM

ermmmmm forgive my ignorance here but WHY NOW?... Why wait until he is unable to answer for himself before raising issues? Do I smell the seeking of compensation here... greed once again rearing its ugly head to get its hands on some of the legacy left by Sir Jimmy? Time will tell I guess.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 07:02 AM

EDIT: accusations against Saville were filmed by Newsnight - five years ago -

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 07:14 AM

I would take an educated guess and expect to be right, that 60% of all ,pop stars and DJ's from the 60's up to the earl 70's took advantage of underage fans and the fans in 99.9% of the cases were very willing, whether they were aware of their ages or not. but a dead man can't defend himself so why make Jimmy a scapegoat. There will be a lot of ageing people in the music world now fearing all kinds of muck getting raked up!

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 07:30 AM

""There will be a lot of ageing people in the music world now fearing all kinds of muck getting raked up!""

But not until they are dead, when their money may be accessed with less effort and little chance of rebuttal of the accusations.

There's a peculiar smell about this lynching party, and I hope they will produce irrefutable evidence, preferrably before the hanging.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 07:36 AM

The thing about hanging dead men is they don't feel a thing.

Was it alright for him to be a child molester cos he raised 40 odd million quid for charity ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Felix Titling
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 07:45 AM

the fans in 99.9% of the cases were very willing,

The willingness of a victim is not an issue in cases of the sexual abuse of minors. This is the nature of The Age of Consent. In the USA I believe the term used in such cases is Statutory Rape.

greed once again rearing its ugly head to get its hands on some of the legacy left by Sir Jimmy?

Nice to see you nailing your colours firmly to the mast there, Georgiansilver.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 07:49 AM

Interesting how the people defending Saville have totally ignored about the only sensible remarks made on this thread, those by CS. It's the same old story - the victims are not listened to and vilified ('they're only after his money') and treated like suspects themselves, whilst everyone jumps to the defence of the alleged abuser. And it just keeps happening.

As the reports in the papers say, Saville's sexual abuse of young girls was one of the worst kept secrets in showbiz. Shame on his colleagues who didn't blow the whistle at the time.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 07:51 AM

Crossed posted with Sir Felix who also has it spot on. Dave is probably right too - when Saville was alive there were a lot of people with a vested interest in not pissing on the applecart.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 08:15 AM

"I hope they will produce irrefutable evidence, preferrably before the hanging."


My mother-in-law, who is now 80, was a victim of Saville in her early teens when she was a young singer with a dance band and he was a dance hall compere. She won't say exactly what happened but is delighted that this has now come into the open, saying that she knew several other girls who he had also assaulted.

So, to those appologists for the man, just bear in mind that he's had an unsavoury reputation amongst those who have known him for a very long time.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 08:22 AM

While I have no sympathy for Saville, can I raise a hypothetical question.
in some african countries it is acceptable for 13 year old girls to marry and have sex, it is against the law in European countries, so SAVILLE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DOING ANYTHING WRONG MORALLY OR LEGALLY IF HE HAD GONE TO AFRICA AND HAD SEX WITH 13 YEAR OLD AFRICAN GIRLS if the girls were willing., because that is their custom.
HERE is some info.   

Algeria

The age of consent in Algeria is 16 for vaginal intercourse. "Heterosexual Sodomy" (anal and/or oral sex with an opposite-sex partner) is illegal {Article 388 of the Penal Code}. As well as all same-sex sexual conduct {Article 338} and "outrages to public decency" {Article 333}. The punishment for both the first two activities with those under 18 years of age is more severe for the older participant.[citation needed]
Angola

The age of consent in Angola is 12.[1][2] However, while rarely prosecuted due to limited investigative resources and an inadequate judicial system, sexual relations with a child between the ages of 12 and 15 can sometimes be considered sexual abuse which is punishable with up to 8 years in prison.[3]
Benin

The age of consent in Benin is 18.[4]
Botswana

The age of consent is 16 for females and 14 for males, but male homosexuality is punishable by 7 years imprisonment.[5]
Burkina Faso

The age of consent is equally set at 13.[6]
Burundi

Under the new Penal Code of 2009 (in French), the age of consent in Burundi for heterosexuals (both men and women) is 18 years [2]. However, under Article 567, homosexual acts (both men and women) carry a fine of up to 100,000 Burundian francs and up to 3 years imprisonment [3].
Cameroon

The law in Cameroon does not provide a minimum age for consensual sex.[7]
Canary Islands (Spain)
For this section, see Ages of consent in Europe#Spain.
Cape Verde
Wiki letter w.svg         This section is empty. You can help by adding to it. (September 2010)
Central African Republic

There is no age of consent in the Central African Republic, but same-sex sexual activity is illegal.[8]
Ceuta (Spain)
For this section, see Ages of consent in Europe#Spain.
Chad

The age of consent in Chad is 14 for girls, even if she is married, but the ban is rarely enforced.[9]. The age of consent for boys is not known.
Comoros

The age of consent in the Comoros is 13.[10]
Côte d'Ivoire

The age of consent in Côte d'Ivoire is 18.[11]
Democratic Republic of the Congo

The age of consent in the Democratic Republic of the Congo is 14 for females and 18 for males.[12]
Djibouti

The age of consent is 18.[13][14]
Egypt

The age of consent in Egypt is 18 years, for heterosexual males and females. Sex work is illegal and the sex work law has been used against male and female homosexuals.[15]
Equatorial Guinea

The age of consent is 18.[16]
Eritrea

The age of consent in Eritrea is 18, as stipulated by Article 595.[17]
Ethiopia

The Constitution defines the age of consent as 15 for females and 18 for males. Nevertheless, early childhood marriage is common in rural areas, with girls as young as age 9 subjected to arranged marriages.[18]
Îles Éparses (France)
For this section, see Ages of consent in Europe#France.
Gabon

The age of consent in Gabon is 18.[19]
Gambia

The age of consent is 18.[20]
Ghana

The age of consent is 16.[21]
Guinea

The age of consent is 15.[22]
Guinea-Bissau

The age of consent is 16.[23]
Kenya

The age of consent in Kenya is 16 years, for heterosexual males and females, and female homosexuals. Male homosexuals get 25 years in prison.[15]
Lesotho

The age of consent is 16 for girls (sexual intercourse with a girl under 16 is considered rape), and 14 for boys.[24]
Liberia

The age of consent in Liberia is 18.[25]. Statutory rape is a first-degree rape offense which carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. The age of consent was raised to 18, from 16, in 2009.[26][27]
Libya

Not allowed without marriage.
Madagascar

Age of consent is 14 years, according to article 331 in the Criminal Law. In certain cases, including relatives and homosexuals, it is 21 years.Droit francophone: Code Pénal du 17 juin 1972 mis à jour au 30 juin 1998
Malawi

The age of consent is 14.[28][29]
Mali

The age of consent is 18.[30]
Madeira (Portugal)
For this section, see Ages of consent in Europe#Portugal.
Mauritania

The age of consent is 16.[31] However, under section 306 of the Legal Code, any act that violates Islamic Morality is illegal, but a clear definition of morality does not exist in the country's laws, so it is very open to interpretation by local officials as to what is moral and what is not. Thus, many acts surrounding the age of consent could be considered illegal.[32]
Mauritius

The age of consent in Mauritius is 16.

Article 249 'Rape, attempt upon chastity and illegal sexual intercourse' of the Penal Code:[33]

(...) Any person who has sexual intercourse with a female under the age of sixteen (16), even with consent, shall be liable to penal servitude not exceeding ten (10) years.
Mayotte (France)
For this section, see Ages of consent in Europe#France.
Melilla (Spain)
For this section, see Ages of consent in Europe#Spain.
Morocco

The age of consent is 18, per Art. 484 of the Penal Code.[34]
Mozambique

The age of consent is 16.[35]
Namibia

The age of consent is 16 for girls.

'Sexual offences with girls under sixteen (16) years', Section 14 of the 'Combating of Immoral Practices Act 1980'

'(1) Any male who

a) has or attempts to have unlawful carnal intercourse with a girl under the age of sixteen (16) years; or

b) commits or attempts to commit with such a girl an immoral or indecent act;

c) solicits or entices such a girl to the commission of an immoral or indecent act, -shall be guilty of an offence and liable on conviction to imprisonment for a period not exceeding six years with or without a fine not exceeding three thousand rand in addition to such imprisonment.

(2) It shall be a sufficient defence to any charge in terms of this section if it appears to the court -

a) that the girl at the time of the commission of the offence was a prostitute, that the person so charged was at the said time under the age of twenty-one (21) years and that it is the first occasion on which he is so charged; or

b) that the person who charged was at the said time under the age of sixteen (16) years ; and

c) that the girl or person in whose charge she was, deceived the person so charged into believing that she was over the age of sixteen (16) years at the said time.' [36]
Niger

Article 284 of the Niger legal code sets the age of consent at 13 years.[37]
Nigeria

The age of consent is 18.[38]
Plazas de soberanía (Spain)
For this section, see Ages of consent in Europe#Spain.
Republic of the Congo

The age of consent in the Republic of the Congo is 18. Sex with a minor is punishable by up to 5 years in prison and a fine of 10,000,000 CFA.[39]
Réunion (France)
For this section, see Ages of consent in Europe#France.
Rwanda

The age of consent in Rwanda is 18 years, regardless of sexual orientation and/or gender.[15]
Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
Wiki letter w.svg         This section is empty. You can help by adding to it. (September 2010)
São Tomé and Príncipe
Wiki letter w.svg         This section is empty. You can help by adding to it. (September 2010)
Senegal

The age of consent in Senegal is 16 (Article 320 deals with children under 16; Article 319 deals with children under 13). Homosexual sex is illegal .[40]
Seychelles

The age of consent is 18.[41]
Sierra Leone

The age of consent is 14.[42]
Somalia

There is no age of consent in Somalia.[43]
Somaliland

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Silas
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 08:28 AM

There is no such thing as consensual under age sex. If, as seems likley this guy was a child rapist then his memory will deserve all it gets.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 08:49 AM

"There is no such thing as consensual under age sex. If, as seems likley this guy was a child rapist then his memory will deserve all it gets."

I've no intention of defending the guy or anyone else but, depending where you are, it is possible for a minor to give consent but this would be classified as a "sexual ofence" as opposed to rape.

In fact, until recently in Scotland, it was only rape if the child was under the age of 12 or had mental health or learning difficulties as then the child was deemed incapable of giving consent.
The law has now changed up here and I'm not quite sure of the present legislation but I'd imagine that it would still differentiate between the two different crimes or offences.

There was also the defence that a male under 22 years could have consensual sex with a female under 16 if he had every reason to believe she was actually 16 or over. Over that age, he couldn't get away with that excuse.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that one type of offence is any better or worse than another and Saville(if the reports are true) is also guilty of an abuse of power and trust which makes things far more serious in my view.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Silas
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 08:55 AM

I fail to see that if a child is under the age of consent how they can legally give consent. You have to be over the age of consent to give it.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 09:01 AM

The point I was making is that the offence isn't necessarily that of rape.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Felix Titling
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 09:02 AM

The Age of Consent determines our cultural & personal attitudes to childhood, and what is appropriate in terms of adult / child relationships. In the UK that age is 16, no matter what it was historically, or what it might be elsewhere. There are very good reasons for this. Even so, it would be considered decidedly dodgy if a 16-year-old would be to become involved with a much older person. An age gap of even five years might be considered too much - it certainly was when I was 16 - though there are no legal guidelines & each case will be treated differently. Maybe we're straying into Rough Band territory here; each community will have its own commonlaw limits as to what is, or is not, acceptable - or what constitutes a loving mutual relationship or one of abuse, no matter how willing the younger party may think they are.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: buddhuu
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 09:27 AM

The laws in other countries are immaterial.

Let us postulate that, for the purpose of discussion, a certain person is a member of a culture where the legal age of consent is very clearly set at 16 years, and where the concepts of statutory rape, child abuse, paedophilia, abuse of trust, coercion, blackmail, intimidation etc etc are clearly defined and understood. Let us postulate a sexual act, or acts, perpetrated by this person upon a young person who is younger than the age of consent in this culture/jurisdiction, and that the person in question can be expected to have had a good idea of the young person's age.

That person's frame of reference should be the mores of the country in which he lives and in which his actions took place.

Express and Daily Mail readers bay loudly enough about foreigners "coming over here" and expecting not to have to live by our laws. Is anyone seriously suggesting that a British paedophile should be able to use foreign laws as an excuse? Personally, I would not leave my children in the care of anyone who would support such a defence...

People mature at different rates. There is no practical way that the laws put in place to protect the vulnerable can make allowances for that difference in maturity amongst individuals, thus we have a fairly arbitrary age of consent. Arbitrary it may be, but it is also a rational and sensible compromise - a 'best guess' or average. It is imperfect, but well meaning and a genuine attempt to afford some protection from abuse. It is the law we have and it is the law by which British citizens must abide.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 09:36 AM

The current case of the teacher who took a pupil to France is interesting.
If they claim only to have had sex in France there is no offence as the age of consent there is 15.
Or is there?

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 09:54 AM

Again, my point is that although an act may be a sexual offence it is not necessarily rape.

According to English Law, the age at which a female is deemed incapable of giving consent would appear to be 13 years(there are several references to this). So, the offence would certainly be that of rape then.

However, between 13 and 16 years, it is not necessarily so. If the female is a willing party, it is a different offence.
Of course, it may arguably considered to be just as serious.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Silas
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:19 AM

So Johnny, you are saying that the age of consent in the UK is 13? Really?

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:24 AM

No, The Law say this... in regard to the crime of Rape(In Scotland, it will still probbaly be 12... I'd have to check).

Of course, it is still against the law to have sex with someone under the age of 16. It's a different offence though.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Silas
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:28 AM

OK Tell me then is a child is under the age of consent, how does she/he give consent?

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:31 AM

in my eyes there is a moral difference[ providing people consent between] someone over the age of puberty and someone under,in african countries people reach puberty earlier[as i understand it] the laws there seem to reflect this, plus there seems to be different customs and culture. it would be wrong for europeans to impose their culture on africans in africa. so if Saville had gone to africa and did what he is accused of doing it would be ok. however he did not and therefore if he did whathe is accused of, he was morally wrong, and in my opinion more so if the child had not reached puberty

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:43 AM

I can't help it if you disagree with the laws of the land.

Here are the Crown Prosecution guidelines

http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/fact_sheets/sexual_offences/

I am not a lawyer, of course, and they get paid a lot more money than me to argue the case on e way or another.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:44 AM

Oops, last post was a reply to Silas....

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,LeGal
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:45 AM

The actual legal niceties of rape are beside the point. Sir Jimmy Savile went out of his way to locate vulnerable girls and boys to sexually abuse, and he was assisted by other adults to do so. He was mostly careful to select children unlikely to talk, or who would not be listened to.

Consent is meaningless in the circumstances that he abused them.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:51 AM

Allegedly. (Unless you know something the rest of us don't, LeGal?

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:54 AM

"Consent is meaningless in the circumstances that he abused them"

In that case, that would have to be proved, and the decision as to what charges are preferred and/or the subsequent definition of the crime for these particular circumstances would be determined on the basis of the evidence available.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Jim'll fuck it
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:58 AM

Hasn't Saville publicly boasted about his early days as a petty gangster running night clubs,
strong-arming individuals backstage to his office to administer punitive beatings ???

Says something about his propensity to be 'intimidating'
and a darker side to his celebrity media personality.


...Allegedly.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 11:04 AM

Well, it's reckoned that Mary(the one from Nazareth) was 13 or 14 when God impregnated her!
She was a minor and gave no consent to God's actions.
Even though 2000yrs have passed since that dastardly deed, I believe the criminal justice system should pursue God over this matter, even if it means travelling to parallel or alternative universes!
Let there be no place for this monster to hide!

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 11:13 AM

When Louise met Jimmy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84u9WnylT60

Interview with Esther Rantzen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v22fFr3R-DM

CS

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 11:34 AM

A lot of you seem to think grown men fucking kids is ok...

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 11:38 AM

Understandably the posts from Nov.,31st,2011 take on a different hue as a result of the accusations and revelations to be found in the press and on t.v. Jimmy Savile, as he was then, figured prominently in our interest and following of pop music as he did for many of you posters. Having read what I have so far, if only his friends and colleagues had taken a more responsible line on his behalf maybe things could have been nipped in the bud although, if the reports are right, there would still have been a price for Jimmy to pay. It is also reported that, some years back, the police did not pursue an allegation due to insufficient evidence.

    I would not be surprised if the covers were lifted off the whole pop, DJ, record, promotion business, etc., of that time there would be many people heading for the hills.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 11:45 AM

"Hasn't Saville publicly boasted about his early days as a petty gangster running night clubs,
strong-arming individuals backstage to his office to administer punitive beatings ???

Says something about his propensity to be 'intimidating'
and a darker side to his celebrity media personality.


...Allegedly."

According to ma-in-law he certainly liked to cultivate that image. He did, however, come a-cropper when the guitarist of the band she sang with (who, some years later she actually married) found out what he had been doing and he and his two brothers - all builders and big lads - took Mr Saville aside and gave him a severe talking-to.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,LeGal
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 12:22 PM

"Allegedly. (Unless you know something the rest of us don't, LeGal?"

Nobody took much interest in what I know when it was relevant, when I was a child. There are plenty of children being abused right now who need to be listened to. They also don't need frivolous arguments about the definition of consent. They know that what is happening to them is wrong, just as Jimmy Savile's victims knew back then.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 12:25 PM

no spleen, i dont think so.but i do see a difference between a 16/17 year old and a pre pubescent, neither is legally correct,but one is morally worse than the other

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 12:55 PM

"They also don't need frivolous arguments about the definition of consent. They know that what is happening to them is wrong............."

Of course, what has happened to them(and is happening to many other children and young people)is wrong.
However, it's important to know what the offences actually are especially if charges have to be proved in a court of law.... too late in the case of Savile, of course.

For instance, someone might state that he, she, or someone else was "robbed" when, in fact, they were burgled!

Let me be clear, I'm not defending or trying to excuse the man if these allegations are true. However, it is very likely that a wide range of offences will have been committed. Some may indeed have been rape, others would be child abuse, indecent assault etc, or simply unlawful sex with a person below the age of consent.
I'm by no means condoning the latter as, in this case, it's almost certain to be an "unequal" relationship and an abuse of position and power.

We haven't seen the programme yet and, even then, we will be unlikely to have access to all the facts.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 02:55 PM

This abuse of "power and position" thing interests me.
In the UK, the age of sexual consent is 16, except between a pupil and teacher, where it's 18.
The explanation for this is that the teacher is considered "loco parentis" i.e. in place of the parents.
Now I think we on very dodgy ground here.
For example, if a teacher had sexual relations with a 16 yr old girl in his class, he would charged with sexual assault.
But imagine if that same girl had left school at 16(happens a lot in the UK ) and got a job as an office junior.
Now, the office manager is designated as her mentor. It is his job to look after her and teach her duties, and if she has any problems, she can go to him for guidance.
Now, what if that girl and office manager engage in sexual relations? Would the office manager - in the eyes of the law - be guilty of sexual assault?

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 03:10 PM

LeGal, these are allegations only at this stage, that's all. Having said that, I personally suspect that there is considerable substance to those allegations.

What concerns me just as much is that many people seem to have been 'in the know' for a great many years (including, if its to be believed, at least one celebrity who presents themselves as a champion of a leading child-protection organisation), so WTF didn't they come forward and speak out when JS was still alive and could have been tried in the courts?

As it stands, these allegations will forever remain just that - allegations - they will never be tested in a court, and the dead really don't give a flyin' fuck about allegations, do they?

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 03:15 PM

Is it appropriate to post scandalous allegations in an obituary thread? Well, here's my opinion. Many of our obituary threads are news items, presenting information about celebrities/public figures who died. These threads serve primarily to furnish information and discuss the life of the deceased. For threads like that, my opinion is that scandalous information is appropriate. I see no reason for some "respect for the dead" taboo. I realize that other Mudcatters feel differently, but I can't really understand that. I confess that I have to suppress the temptation to ridicule those who seem to insist that we must not speak ill of dead strangers.

Other obituary threads are about people we have known and loved, and I think that's a different matter.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 04:02 PM

We really shouldn't be shocked by the sexual antics of celebrities.
I remember some "shocking" revelations about Buddy Holly's dressing-room orgies.
Of course, when it involves underage "wide-eyed" girls, that's when most of us draw the line.
However, unless "proof of age" is requested, I'm not sure how easy it would be separate "the legal from the illegal".
Indeed, I suppose every young chap would be wise to ask for proof of age before setting out on any sexual escapade.
Better to be safe than sorry.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 04:12 PM

No one has mentioned Jerry Lee Lewis and his 13 year old third wife and cousin.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 04:28 PM

Blimey, I hope I don't get blamed for starting this thread.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 05:32 PM

I always found Mr Savile "creepy", even when he was being lauded for his good works.

The Times is serialising a book written by Mr Townshend in which he attempts to excuse his membership of a "child porn website"..."Inever looked! honest!", said he.

Mr Townshend strikes me as being equally creepy
The abuse of children is a crime for which there is no redemption.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 05:38 PM

Did Saville have alleged sexual relationships with children[ pre puberty] or willing 17 year olds , there is[IMO] a moral difference.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 05:51 PM

I dont think there is any evidence that Mr Saville was a paedophile.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 05:58 PM

"I dont think there is any evidence that Mr Saville was a paedophile. "

There probably isn't.

Also, there IS a moral difference between relationships with "children[ pre puberty] or willing 17 year olds".

However, it's likely that the offences ocurred with children and young persons aged somewhere in between these two extremes and, as such, would still be morally wrong.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 06:10 PM

Just because someone works for 'charidy' doesn't make them a saint! After all Hermann Goering worked for the Hamburg branch of 'Cats in Need' for many years ... actually, I made that up ... sorry ...

As for the age of consent stuff, I believe that it is the primary duty of all responsible adults to show concern for the welfare of children and young people. An adult person who has sex with a child or much younger person is primarily concerned with satisfying his perverted lust - not the welfare of the child or younger person.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 06:52 PM

"If they claim only to have had sex in France there is no offence as the age of consent there is 15.
Or is there?"

Actually as far as at least part of the UK goes it would be an offense. If a UK national carries out a sexual act abroad which is illegal in Scotland it is an offense even if not illegal in the country where the act took place. Sexual Offences Scotland Act 2009. It was basically introduced to deal with sex tourists to the likes of Thailand etc but would no doubt also cover the above example.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 07:06 PM

On reading the explanatory notes to Section 54 of the said bill it seems that in line with the Council of Europe Convention the UK govt removed dual criminality for offences committed by UK nationals abroad in connection with child abuse, child pornography and child prostitution. Hence a UK national having sex with a 15 year old in France would also be a crime under English Law. Scots Law simply goes even further in stating that any sexual offence is relevant and not just crimes against children.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 07:26 PM

NO!

It isn't all right for anybody to be a child molester Dave.

Neither is it all right to assume that a dead man was guilty of that crime, without something more than the unsupported word of alleged victims.

Dragging up "victims" to litigate for the advantage mainly of the "no win, no fee" lawyer has become a national pastime.

I never had PPI, but I get ten - twelve calls a week telling me that I have a case, and that they will handle it and get back the thousands of pounds I'm owed. God knows how many I'd get if I weren't signed up to the TPS.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:38 AM

"Neither is it all right to assume that a dead man was guilty of that crime, without something more than the unsupported word of alleged victims."

Of course anyone is innocent until proved guilty whether dead or not. So at the moment they are only accusations. However it is not just the words of the alleged victims. Much of what has been on the news has been former work colleagues who claim that it was known what was going on!

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:40 AM

More former coworkers corroborate abuse allegations (or "muckraking if you prefer):

"a former producer, Wilfred De'Ath, has confirmed that he warned Savile informally ... after the latter spent the night "in a rather squalid hotel with a girl who was at the most 12, or probably 10". Told that he was "living dangerously", the presenter claimed that he was "much too valuable to the BBC for them to do anything to me"."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/9582129/Saviles-reputation.html

***

"Former BBC producer says she witnessed Jimmy Savile abuse - video:"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/video/2012/oct/01/former-bbc-producer-jimmy-savile-video

***

"Yesterday a former BBC chauffeur made damaging allegations about how the scandal was hushed up. He said he had once driven home a 'hysterical' 12-year-old girl who claimed she had been sexually assaulted by Savile after appearing on Jim'll Fix It.
The girl 'sobbed her heart out all the way home' after she was allegedly abused by the presenter after the show during the mid-1970s. When she reached her front door, she collapsed into her mother's arms in tears, telling her: 'I'm sorry. It wasn't my fault. Jimmy grabbed me. He attacked me.'
The driver, who worked as a chauffeur for the BBC for 16 years, said staff members had previously been fired for talking about Savile's reputation, and he feared he would lose his job if he reported it.
He said the show's chiefs 'knew very well' that he had a reputation for sexually assaulting young contestants, and had even begun to employ chaperones to make sure girls could not be lured into his dressing room."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2211463/Jimmy-Savile-As-pressure-grows-BBC-cover-women-come-forward-ordeals.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

CS

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:42 AM

Are the victims seeking compensation?
They say they were in early teens.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:49 AM

"Are the victims seeking compensation?
They say they were in early teens."

Not so far as I know.
Two twelve year old girls also referenced (see my post on coworkers).

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:53 AM

If this sordid little scandal about the BBC (Savile was seemingly 'enabled' and protected rather well) is fully opened up. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more of such allegations coming to light. The Newsnight programme which was shelved by the BBC , apparently went further than just Savile himself, and highlighted a number of other likely perpetrators.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:54 AM

"the unsupported word of alleged victims"

They're called witnesses - it's what our criminal prosecution system is based on. What do you want - photographs?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 03:07 AM

When you have many "alleged" child victims telling the same story, you do not disbelieve them because of who the perpetrators are.
The head of Yorkshire police will have to answer to Parliament soon for just that.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 03:13 AM

Just a few observations.

Whilst most of the alleged crimes will predate this, we do have a law, (Bridge or a legal bod of similar sitting may know the details?) that says if you commit a UK criminal act abroad where it is not a crime there, The CPS may consider whether there is a charge to answer if it can be proved you went abroad in order to commit it. It was brought in to help reduce sexual tourism in Asia.

Whether these were children or young adults makes no difference. If it can be proved that Saville's position of power and assumed authority was used to influence them, they are classed as vulnerable. Which pulls it back to rape regardless.

As he is dead, he cannot be charged but his reputation can be held to scrutiny. Whether this is a good thing or not is a subject of debate of course, but if it stops some others from abusing their position of trust, there could be good coming from it.

Backwoodsman. You are correct and I replied to the sod with the same spelling mistake. My bad, as my sons would say. There is not only an H in Townshend but also a G as in genious. And yet to be balanced, he was on a a membership list which for most people is not easy to explain...

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 03:41 AM

Well, thanks to Dick I now know a lot more about ages of consent in different African countries than I ever expected to. Watch out for him on 'Mastermind'.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 03:45 AM

Thanks, Ian - an easy enough mistake to make, and very common. Almost as common as the mis-spelling of 'genius'! :-)    :-)

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 04:21 AM

The current law is here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/contents


The original text of the 1956 Act (the previous most general relevant statute) is here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/4-5/69/contents/enacted

but as you can see from the schedule of repeals in the 2003 Act there were many other statutes that did fiddle about (see what I did there?) with the UK law of sexual offences, created over a great span of time but repealed in 2003.

There was also a fair bit of common law still relevant in the area during Savile's heyday.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 04:42 AM

The 'age of consent' or the 'legal age for sex' etc is totally irrelevant. It doesn't matter if these were women of fifty. They didn't want or welcome his attentions (if all they say is true, which is yet to be proved) They were uncomfortable and very upset by what he did to them. Nobody has any right whatsoever to touch, fumble, put a tongue in the mouth (one of the allegations) press against or in any other way assault another person, male or female, of any age. It may have been many years ago, but these sort of assaults have a lasting effect on the victims. It must be investigated because although Savile is dead, it seems there may have been other adults who knew or even assisted him to do this. Also the BBC should be questioned, as they may have turned a blind eye. The whole thing is very sad.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 05:14 AM

Well said Eliza

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Musket
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 05:22 AM

I used to be able to spell till I started using my iPhone to post..

Ruddy auto spell checker. The word it slipped in isn't a real word anyway! Whilst we are digging up Saville, I want to dig up Jobs and accuse him of not allowing turning off of the Nanny auto speller. I can do it on my iMac, and have dun.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 05:23 AM

LOL!

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 06:22 AM

Jimmy Saville made me squirm as a young girl. He made me squirm as an adult. In fact, he made my blood run cold, all through his life.

It seems that his work for Stoke Mandeville played an important part here, together with his high ratings for the BBC.

Having been told by the BBC that they would get their Special Investigations Department to deal with me, back on their messageboard, with the added threat of that department seeking to get me banned from the internet by my service provider, it would seem the BBC does HAVE a Special Investigations Department.

If this is the case, WHERE WERE THEY?

Jimmy Saville had the 'aura of pervert'all around him, in my opinion, but so too do ALL those concerned who KNEW what was happening, or who had been told highly suspicious things but who then CHOSE not to a damn thing about them!

Complicity should be a Criminal Offence, as far as I'm concerned, for if it were then crimes such as these would NOT have been allowed to continue to happen.

I don't care how much money he raised for charity, his reputation absolutely deserves to be blown to Kingdom Come and quite frankly Stoke Mandeville AND the BBC should be the LOUDEST voices calling for a full Investigation into these allegations, which I have no doubt will be found to be true.

Interestingly, most of you have ignored the comment above from 'the leveller' where he spoke of a relative of his who was abused by Saville. Levels is to be trusted 100% in what he says and therefore his comment above adds yet more translucence to a very foggy situation which was deliberately kept hidden so that money would continue to pour in to Stoke Mandeville and the BBC Ratings would continue to stay high because of Saville's programmes and popularity.

Blow 'em all to smithereens, Legal Industry!!

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 06:30 AM

Poem

Let's take it as a gimme
That Saville's jimmy
Acted most unpleasant
With young adolescents


How'z about that then.....!

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,your willie.
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 06:59 AM

19th. C. or older. Lines on what old men get up to.[no pun intended]

With pows say white and tails say green
Aye fuckin young girls of bare thirteen

At least the hair colour matches

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 07:02 AM

How distasteful....

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 07:09 AM

"""the unsupported word of alleged victims"

They're called witnesses - it's what our criminal prosecution system is based on. What do you want - photographs?""

That's one guilty vote before trial then.

When dealing with the case against a dead man, who by definition is prevented from mounting any defence, it is necessary to consider the possible motives of all who stand to gain from the accusations, whether by receiving compensation, or by sellingtheir stories to the Media, don't you think?

If rumour gives way to evidence, then and only then, I'll join in the condemnation, and if others are implicated, I'll be calling for charges to be levelled.

The point is, I don't know he's guilty, and I suspect you don't either.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 07:11 AM

Thanks, Lizzie. 100% with you on this one!

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 07:25 AM

We have some evidence Don.
Do you have any reason to believe that all the witnesses are lying?
So many and so varied all with the same story?
Celebs die all the time, but this has never happened before.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,your willie
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 07:29 AM

Different times different mores.
A young lady of twelve, the age of consent at the time, the Duchess of Northumberland in her own right, was wedded and bedded at that age by a fotune hunter of fifty three with barely a comment from her own class.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 07:58 AM

With you 100% Lizzie.

Dave H

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 08:10 AM

"We have some evidence Don."

And it's mounting: eight more women came forward today.

"Do you have any reason to believe that all the witnesses are lying?"

There is no reason to suppose any of this flood of allegations are lying. There's certainly no evidence to indicate that any of them have any reason to do so. Producers at the BBC included.

Alternatively it could all be one huge evil conspiracy, probably masterminded by the Illuminati or our friends at Tinfoil Hats R Us

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 08:14 AM

More here on the further eight:

Ex-detective Mark William-Thomas, who is presenting tonight's documentary Exposure: The Other Side Of Jimmy Savile, said: "Up to eight women have come forward for the first time to tell me their stories over the last few days.
"I have urged them to go to the police. It is quite clear from this early response that there are lots more women out there with similar stories to tell."

And this is important:

"Today it also emerged that at least four police forces investigated claims that Savile molested children, while Scotland Yard is looking into an allegation of rape dating back to 1986."

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/jimmy-savile-sexually-abused-us-say-eight-more-women-8195670.html

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 08:16 AM

There can be no comparison whatever to what appears to have happened here and the Yorkshire underage sex affair.
Descriptions of bored policemen taking statements from underage sex victims and asking them "if you objected to what happened to you, why did you go back for more?" indicate a total indifference to what happened in Yourkshire and a malicious dereliction of duty rather than who the victims or perpetrators were.
Rather, if the BBC knew about Saville's alleged abuse and covered it up, this can be compared to the ongoing disclosures within the Catholic church, were the heirarchy allowed abuse to to remain undiscovered and even to continue by not disclosing it - for the good of the church.
I wonder if the mis-spelling of the title of this thread was deliberate or a Freudian slip - Sa-vile
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Felix Titling
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 08:28 AM

Even The Nolans... about 3.25 in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JygLGzNhiD8

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 08:30 AM

The comparison was made in The Guardian on Monday by Julie Bindel (remember her Jim?).
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/01/jimmy-savile-abused-children-documentary

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 08:33 AM

Poem

Jim fixed it for me
So spare me your wrath
Even if he did get
My knickers off.

Next week: Esther speaks out - my lesbo romps with Mary Whitehouse and childline victims

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 08:34 AM

lets wait and see.
In the 1960s many people slept with popstars and disc jockeys,, I believe Bill Wyman had a reputation for having a lot of sex, JERRY LEE LEWIS HAD A 13 YEAR OLD WIFE, now if people willingly consented to having sex,it should in my opinion be treated differently to being intimidated or being forced, of course it is still legally an offence, if under the age of consent,
personally I think that Saville possibly/probably was an abuser. however its very easy to judge what happened fifty years ago with the morals of the 21st century, prnot an excuse for Saville, but maybe an excuse for pop stars who had underage consensual sex[possibly not even knowing their age.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 08:45 AM

"That's one guilty vote before trial then."

Your logic, as usual, is totally perverse. Personally, I believe my mother-in-law. Why would she make it up?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 09:19 AM

"Julie Bindel "
Which in no way attempts to link the dereliction of duty by the police to "who the perpetrators are."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Jim'll fuck it
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 09:38 AM

"Whilst we are digging up Saville"

Then there are also the persistent wide spread internet rumours
that Saville took advantage of his charitable free & easy entry to hospitals
in order to gain surreptitious access to fresh corpses in the morgues ???

Now then, now then,
that's as much context as required for this currently circulating gem
of incisive internet humour:

"I notice the paedophilia rumours about Jimmy Savile are in full swing,
but no-one seems to be talking about the necrophilia ones.

Presumably they're still waiting for the victims to come forward."

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 09:54 AM

Whenever something of this nature hits the press... all kinds of people come forward... even ones who had nothing at all to do with the perpetrator/paedophile... why... because somewhere in a bank(s) or other financial investment is a vast fortune left by 'the accused' Don't misunderstand me, I believe that there are those who were abused by Jimmy S but there will also be those who lie when they say they were........ As I said in my previous post.. I believe that it has raised it's ugly head now because people are, or will be seeking compensation.. but who will be entitled to it and how can they prove it??

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 09:55 AM

I don't much care for proclaiming guilt because there was an "aura of pervert". Guilt depends on being guilty, not having an aura.

No doubt part of the reason this is surfacing is because the dead cannot sue for libel - and it may be interesting to compare the widespread rumours that in order to compete on (much less win) Opportunity Knocks you had to be shagged by Hughie Green (known as "Huge" even in public, to his last lady companion but I cannot say the reason) whatever gender you were. But of course the dead cannot be posthumously convicted either.

Back in the 60s the pill had removed terror of unwanted pregnancy. Herpes was a distant threat, and the idea of Aids would have been unthinkable. STDs were not that common, and treatable. It was the first great liberation of sex - and many groupies were begging for it, and going back for more if they could. The ones who got into the star's pants were accounted the lucky ones - and although the Bay City Rollers were musically vile I felt the much delayed conviction and investigation there were a bit puritanical. The tales of Jagger, of the Status Quo, and many others were uniform. The dam had burst and sex could be and was enjoyed. Think of songs like "Young Girl", "Mellow Yellow", Young Girl" "Don't Stand So Close to Me". Think of the Oz schoolkids issue. Think of the cartoon "Honeybunch". That was the zeitgeist of the times and the time I assumed everyone was doing it and wanted to do it even more. The majority of my friends of gender started their sex lives when under age and I am reasonably confident the same has prevailed ever since and still does.

But it seems that not everyone was of the same frame of mind. King was clearly a predator rather than an opportunist, and in some cases coercion now appears to have been thought to be in play. In 2003 the "abuse of position of responsibility" crime came into play.

I am not sure that we have got our collective position on this right. Young people between about 12 and 16 face either unwanted (in many cases) celibacy or criminality. Only some positions involve deemed trust that may render what might be (or might not be) a genuine relationship unlawful. I know of one case not all that long ago at the Hundred of Hoo school where a teacher entered a relationship with a girl pupil - to whom he is now married. More recently there was another case with another teacher (Spendley) at the same school in which there was no coercion but there appears to have been a misuse of position: the relationship foundered, and Spendley is still married to his wife but in prison and mentally ill. The girl also continues to feel adverse after effects. As the judge said, it was a tragedy for all concerned. What I have said here about Spendley was all in the press at the time.

We have the law as a blunt instrument. It criminalises too much and too little. Referring to the 2003 Act Sections 9 to 15 are probably too wide - although I am less clear on sections 14 and 15 - and 16 to 44 are probably too narrow.

I tend to think that S 72 is too wide. Some commentators above should however have a look at it.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 10:11 AM

"I believe that it has raised it's ugly head now because people are, or will be seeking compensation.."

Why do you think this? People are coming forward because they have lived their lives (in my mother-in-law's case something like 65 years)under the cloud of having been sexually abused by a person who became a respected public figure. She doesn't want compensation, she doesn't even want to talk about it ouside the family - but she does now have a sense of justice because ir has come out into the open. Do you think that the whole thing should have been hushed up? If not, please stop makingthese hurtful allegations about victims of long-term sexual predator. How would you like it if he'd fucked you?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 10:21 AM

theLeveller.... In my honest opinion, there will be claims for compensation from some, maybe not from others but once the ball starts rolling it picks up momentum. I sympathise with anyone who has been abused 'by anyone' at any time.... I don't believe it should have been hushed up at all... but it will snowball ................... When compensation doesn't rear its ugly head... I will accept that I was wrong.. we'll have to wait and see.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 10:35 AM

I may be being stupid here (well, there's a first time for everything) but where would this compensation come from? I assume that Saville's estate has now been disposed of to his heirs who were not culpable so could not be sued.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 10:45 AM

There will be claims for compensation for compensation, and rightly so if it turns out that there is a case to be made for abuse here.
But please don't let that be a weapon for proving that there was no abuse.
When the enormity of the clerical abuse was emering in Ireland an organisation called L.O.V.E. was created (can't remember what it stands for - but it had little to do with LOVE).
Its purpose seemed to be to prove that most of the claims of having been abused were made for financial gain, thus making the abused children victims once again.
I belive the way rape is handled by the judicial system has the consequence that the majority of rapes are never reported.
I agree with Richard Bridge, let's see the evidence before coming to a conclusion one way or the other.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 11:17 AM

Saville's estate is one thing. The BBC if complicit is another.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 11:36 AM

The clip with the Nolans (juggling a tit on camera) is a bit sleazy, and would have been a bit sleazy whatever the age of the performer, but there is no law against sleaze and the Nolans must have known that showbiz was meant to be that way.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 11:38 AM

Which in no way attempts to link the dereliction of duty by the police to "who the perpetrators are."
Yes it did Jim.
She said, "Why do we so often fail to act when we suspect or even know that children are being sexually abused? Nothing prompts the question more than the disgraceful example of the grooming gangs in Rochdale in which scores of girls were drugged, raped and sold by men who were afforded better protection than their victims were until the criminal justice system and child protection agencies were forced to act. In 2008, one victim of the most serious abuse and exploitation reported to the police and another agency that she had been the victim of serious sexual assaults by adult men but the focus was more on her behaviour than of the abusers."

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 11:41 AM

Its a bit like the Conservatives.

No use blaming maggie Thatcher - she always looked weird and sounded dodgy.

Blame the idiots who voted for her.

Similarly with Jimmy Saville.

Blame the nutters who watched him, and let their kids write into someone who was weird and sounded dodgy.

I mean - look at him, for godsake! If he was in a line up of weirdoes, could you pick out the weirdo - I think in all honesty - anybody could!   You know that saying - does what it says on the label.....could be his epitaph really.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 11:44 AM

Hmmm. Not sure about that, Jack. I doubt the Nolan in question would agree with you. The clip looks bizarre.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Felix Titling
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 11:48 AM

A bit sleazy? That clip is 100% proof pure vintage sleaze. The kid was fourteen FFS. But there it is - an evident act of sexual assault on a naive minor in full camera view. Still, it seems The Nolans were aware of his reputation at the time...

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Johnny J
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 11:49 AM

Dear, dear....

There IS a law against indecently assaulting a woman(or man for that matter) whatever the age of the performer.

If he or she was a willing participant in the proceedings, then it would be merely "sleaze" and it may or may not be against the law if the act takes place or is broadcast in a public place.

From the video, it appears as if the girl is being "groped" and she doesn't look entirely happy about it.
No complaint was made at time time and, by all accounts, Colleen doesn't even wish to pursue the matter now but I still think Savile was completely out of order.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 11:54 AM

And also Jim, Peter Watt who was a General Secretary of the Labour Party said,
"So scores of girls aged 12 – 16 from a small geographical area are groomed, gang raped and then intimidated into silence by a small group of men of Pakistani origin and:

"It is imperative that suggestions of a wider cultural phenomenon are avoided."

But a sick and distorted sense of political and cultural sensitivity allowed criminals to go unprosecuted and worse the horror to continue for years for young girls in Rotherham."

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 11:59 AM

"Yes it did Jim."
No it didn't Keith - in no way does it link who these people were with a reason for why they were not prevented from doing what they were doing.
The reports on the events indicated clearly very bored "yawning" policemen taking down statements from abuse victims and then suggesting it was the victims who were to blame - nothing to do with the perpetrators, unless you are suggesting that the police didn't act because hey were afraid of bad press.
I have no intention of taking this any further along this road and I suggest you leave it where it is.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 12:07 PM

No, no, no!
You pair have wrecked countless threads with your personal, childish feud.
Please Foxtrot Oscar and leave this one alone.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 12:15 PM

"Whenever something of this nature hits the press... all kinds of people come forward... even ones who had nothing at all to do with the perpetrator/paedophile... why... because somewhere in a bank(s) or other financial investment is a vast fortune left by 'the accused' "

Does it? Oddly enough I've never seen this apparently commonplace phenomenon, but you evidently have. What other wealthy dead big name celebrities have been the focus of mass "snowballing" allegations of abuse in this way?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Jim'll fuck it
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 12:44 PM

The internet has been awash with Saville rumours & allegations
for some years before his death.
Just google his name and any of many keywords to discover hours of prurient reading.

Ranging from the plausible & believable
- to astonishing and bizarre conspiracy theories
involving the Krays, masons, secret intelligence agency cover ups, even speculated links to Fred West !!!???

But so far as I can see not extra terrestrial abduction & invasion.

Here's a long quote from a more down to earth northern football forum:

by Twiggster on Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:00 pm
"CUR jimmy saVILE was a voluntary porter at the LGI, in the early 70's Meaning he had a pass key to the student nurses' dorm.
My ex wife (then fiancée), was a student nurse at the time and had lodgings in one of the student rooms there, which she shared with 3 other students.
HOW many times, did that perv saVILE "accidentally" use his keys to enter their room, at an hour when the girls would be in various states of undress. Not just their room, but almost EVERY room in the student quarters.
Going into the shower room at the end of the girls' shifts to "clean" - funny how he never went in there at times they were working - just when he knew he'd be able to perv on teenage girls in the showers.
Complaints were made about his behaviour frequently to the board of the LGI, but were hushed up or just ignored, cos of "who" he was.
The girls in my fiancées' room were realy getting scared of him, so one evening me and another of the girls' boyfriends sneaked into their room after the girls came off duty. He used his master key to "accidentally" walk in - and me and the lad were in his face. He went white and ran out. 2 mins later he was back with security to have me and the other lad thrown out. (No male friends allowed in student nurses rooms rule!)...
He warned the girls if owt was said, they would lose their jobs. He never went back to their room again, but continued doing the same thing in other student rooms.
Moving on 6 months...
Student nurses Xmas ball at Leeds Poly. I was one of the DJ's for the mobile disco they hired. Was a great evening with everyone having fun. In walks saVILE and wants to take over the turntables! He was told to fekk off in no uncertain terms.
So he goes on the dance floor. I was on the wheels at the time and one of the other dj's pointed to saVILE dancing close to my fiancée, who was a bit distressed with his attempts to dirty dance her. Mate took over and whilst I was walking towards them, I saw him grope her hard. She slapped his face, he slapped her and I went for him. I had him on the floor in a second and began beating the crap out of him. Now, I'm no fighter but I had the red mist and he was begging me to stop.
Luckily the two bouncers on duty were mates of mine and let me pummel him a good while, until I'd calmed down a bit. They finally pulled me off him and threw him out, giving him a few more kicks along the way. I walked back onstage to a round of applause.
SaVILE tried to bring assault charges against me and the bouncers but there were a LOT of witnesses who saw him grope my girlfriend and it was all hushed up.
Hushed up, like his attempted rape of another student nurse, who was only saved as an ambulance man happened to be in the vicinity and heard the lass scream. SaVILE laughed it off as "a bit of fun". Lass too scared to make a police statement. Again, all complaints were hushed over and ignored..."you can't accuse a saint like jimmy - he is working here for free", was the reply from the top.
My PERSONAL experience of the twot.
Then you have a mate of mine (yes, ok, not my personal experience - but I have heard this from his daughter's mouth), after the lass (8 at the time) was on Jim'llfix it, at the studios.
"When Daddy went to sign some papers, Jimmy was stroking my leg and was trying to touch my nickers"...
He admitted he held her leg to "comfort her as she was scared". She never actually did the show, as she didn't want to be near him.
Jimmy saVILE was a horrible and detestable pervert, which was glossed over as he was a media darling. Untouchable for those who he abused.
I am happy I got to kick the crap out of him."

http://www.motforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25096#p372562

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 01:25 PM

I noticed that the odious Esther Rantzen has jumped on the band waggon: obviously her career needs a boost after that dismal election performance.
There's talk of taking away Sir Jimmy's knigthood, even though he's dead. We could start a trend here: Lord Byron was really suspect, let's strip him of his peerage. Shrodinger (he of the cat) was very dodgy: away with his Nobel Prize. Lewis Carroll, those photographs: defrocked, of course. Did Eric Gill have any honours?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:23 PM

No it didn't Keith
I say it did, and I am sure that anyone reading those statements would agree.
However, as I have no wish to argue it with you, I will agree to differ.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:36 PM

More from Coleen Nolan of the groping pic. Savile asked her to go to an hotel with him afterwards:

Sir Jimmy Savile suggested to Coleen Nolan that she join him at a hotel when she was just 14-years-old, the singer revealed today.
In an interview today, the Nolan Sisters singer said Sir Jimmy made the invitation following a TV recording when she was just 14.
She had been in the Top Of The Pops studio, along with her chart star sisters who were appearing on the show.
Speaking on ITV1's Alan Titchmarsh Show, she said: "At the time I was 14 and it was just an uncomfortable situation.
"The girls were doing Top Of The Pops and I stood with him while he made the announcement and it was an uncomfortable situation, the way he held me and then he mentioned about going to a hotel.
"But you didn't talk about those things then."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9585196/Jimmy-Savile-invited-me-to-hotel-when-I-was-14-claims-Coleen-Nolan.html

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 03:57 AM

It may be just my way of thinking, but assuming these reports have substance, I can't help but pity the man.

Seems to me (and those who actually knew him may of course correct me) that JS had a dreadful flaw in what was an otherwise caring nature. That is, unless his charity work was nothing but a popularity-boosting false front.

Hasn't each one of us, sometime in our lives, been in a position where the only thing keeping us back from doing something we knew we shouldn't, was the certainty of being found out and being made to suffer the consequences? It was his bad luck to be susceptible to a particular temptation, and also to have abilities that put him in a position where he could yield to that temptation with relative impunity. It was his eternal disgrace to have ever done so.

I see him as one who had the potential to be the caring person he was recognized for, but blew it. Sad, really.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 04:06 AM

Bless him.
Anyone still want to give him the benefit of the "doubt."

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 04:23 AM

"Seems to me (and those who actually knew him may of course correct me) that JS had a dreadful flaw in what was an otherwise caring nature. That is, unless his charity work was nothing but a popularity-boosting false front."

That's exactly what it was. I'd listen to the stories of those who actually knew him. He was NOT a nice man.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 04:25 AM

"That is, unless his charity work was nothing but a popularity-boosting false front."

Yep! I strongly suspect that it probably was!

I watched last night's ITV documentary on JS and it was so grimly, unremittingly sordid I had to turn it off part way through. I would suggest that the "dreadful flaw" in JS's "otherwise caring nature" was psycopathy.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 04:26 AM

Several victims have referred to his physical strength, and how he easily overpowered them.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 05:15 AM

He was obviously incapable of achieving any kind of adult emotional or physical relationship with a woman. Even the assaults on the underage girls he used for his sexual gratification, were a characterised by a routine of beckoning the girl to sit on his knee, immediately shoving his tongue down her neck, his hand up her skirt and into her knickers, and then either expecting a "hand job" or pinning her down for a few minutes of "in and out". All reported that he displayed no emotion either before during or after. It sounded like sex for Savile was a routine mechanical operation. Or maybe like many paedophiles*, he had perfected the art of swiftly taking advantage of any window of opportunity to sexually assault the young teenage girls he came into contact with, that presented itself.





* whether Savile was a paedophile isn't relevant to my point

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 05:27 AM

From this morning's Times
Jim Carroll

BBC 'WAS AWARE OF SAVILE SEX ABUSE ALLEGATIONS IN 1973'
Ben Webster Media Editor
The BBC has removed all programmes featuring Sir Jimmy Savile from its schedules while police investigate alle-gations that he was a serial abuser of young girls from the 1960s to the 1980s.
A repeat of The Story of Light Entertainment, which included an interview with Savile, will not be shown on BBC Four on Saturday, and episodes of Top of the Pops presented by him have also been cancelled.
A former BBC press officer cast doubt yesterday on the corporation's claim that it became aware only last December of the allegations against Savile, who died a year ago.
Rodney Collins said that Douglas Muggeridge, the late Controller of BBC Radio 1 and 2, told him in 1973 that he had heard of allegations relating to Savile and underage girls involved in his Radio 1 series Savile's Travels. He said: "For the BBC to say they weren't aware of anything, they certainly were."
Mr Collins said that Mr Muggeridge asked him to check with some newspapers whether they were going to report the allegations. He said he was told that the newspapers were aware of the allegations but would not report them because Savile did a lot for charity and was a popular man.
A BBC spokesman said that it had searched its files and found no written record of allegations of misconduct by Savile during his time at the BBC.
He added: "We are now working with police forces to help them investigate these matters. We are also keeping our searches for information under review as and when new information comes to light."
Police are considering beginning an investigation into allegations that other people who are still alive, including at least two celebrities, were involved with Savile in abusing girls.
The Metropolitan Police are assessing an allegation by a woman that she was raped by Savile after meeting him while on work experience at Broadcasting House, the BBC's headquarters.
A Scotland Yard spokesman said: "We can confirm that we have received a small number of allegations that are currently being assessed."
Three other police forces confirmed that they had received complaints. Surrey Police received a complaint in 2007 and interviewed Savile under caution but did not proceed after the Crown Prosecution Service said that there was insufficient evidence. Sussex and Jersey police received complaints in 2008 but did not interview him. West York-shire Police refused to say whether it had received any complaints about Savile, who lived in their area.
ITV broadcast claims last night by five women that the presenter abused them in the 1970s when they were child-ren. Last year the BBC Two programme Newsnight interviewed ten witnesses making similar allegations but the programme was dropped. The BBC refused to say yesterday whether George Entwistle, the new Director-General who was head of vision at the time, had been aware of the Newsnight investigation. It said that Mr Entwistle was not involved in the decision to drop the programme, which had been taken for "editorial reasons". Karin Ward, a former pupil at Duncroft Approved School near Staines, Surrey, who alleges that she was abused by Savile, agreed to waive her anonymity to be interviewed by Newsnight, and said she was upset that the programme had been dropped.
She added: "I think the BBC cut the programme because they were appalled ... When they found out some of the abuse happened on their premises I think they were 'absolutely not, you're not telling anyone that, cut it'."
A circular gold plaque in Scarborough, where the presenter had a home, was subject to a graffiti attack this week. Authorities in the North Yorkshire town say they are now reviewing security at the cemetery where his headstone lies. A statue of the star in Glasgow has been removed.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 05:40 AM

Whoops! What happened there?

Anyway, what I find grimly fascinating about JS is that he knew exactly how to exploit 'human nature' for his own purposes. He seems to have latched on, very early, to the power of pop music and the hold that it has on audiences. He cultivated an eccentric persona which allowed him, through his DJing, to cash in on that power whilst having no musical talent whatsoever. He knew that many people are inordinately impressed by charity work and thereby was able to both turn himself into a secular saint and to gain honours (including a knighthood - for God's sake!!). Most sinister of all he understood how impressionable and vulnerable some young girls can be and used this knowledge to exploit them sexually. He also knew that many people will readily blame victims of crimes rather than the perpetrators of the crimes (look how many contributors to this thread have attempted to defend him).

Beware psycopaths - they've got your number!

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 05:52 AM

"Beware psycopaths - they've got your number!"

Not to mention they "know where you live"

Remember Louis Theroux perplexedly quizzing Savile over why Savile had Throux's name and home address written on a pad in his living room when Theroux filmed his doco with Savile? When asked exactly how he'd got hold of Theroux's home address, Savile said "I can get anything me".

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 05:54 AM

Thanks Jim. I wonder why "West York-shire Police refused to say whether it had received any complaints about Savile, who lived in their area."

Do you still "agree with Richard Bridge, let's see the evidence before coming to a conclusion" or is there enoough for you both now?

Don T, do you still think the alleged child victims might all be lying?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 06:29 AM

I stayed up last night to watch the programme and squirmed all through. It was sickening, and I for one completely believe the allegations. I remember that era; girls were thrilled to be invited to meet someone famous and to be on the TV. When they were abused they would have found it impossible to tell anyone, as people thought he was a saint. Also he was crafty enough to select girls from an Institution for 'wayward' young women, whose stories would be instantly discredited. Paedophiles are incredibly devious and sly. They know how to groom the vulnerable and evade detection. Online they contact eachother and refer to their 'Hobby'. Even the most hardened of prisoners I got to know would not have hesitated to attack and even try to 'do in' a paedophile. That's why they're segregated in jail. I feel the Queen would probably prefer to have his knighthood removed posthumously.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 08:34 AM

A very queer story. I can't think of a current novelist who could handle this grotequeness. The names of Canadian Mordecai Richler and the late Auberon Waugh resonate - its like one of their plots.

And you'd read it and think, that would never happen. What an unlikely character...!

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 08:51 AM

And it keeps getting worse. I hadn't followed the link to the Haut de le Garenne children's home in Jersey before. The following from the Sun unfortunately, however it is worth noting that the story is not 'new' as such, as the interviewee made a complaint against Savile to police back in 2007:

[A] nine-year-old is the youngest person said to have been abused by the Jim'll Fix It star, who died last year aged 84. Her older sister, now in her 50s, told yesterday for the first time of the attack at the Haut de la Garenne home.
She said hordes of excited children had been bussed across the island to meet the star at the children's home when he was at the height of his TV fame.
She said: "My sister was sitting on his lap — he was a pervert. He put his hand up my dress and also my sister's and fumbled around.
"She was nine and I was 11 at the time in 1971. I just ran away and took my sister away from him." [...]
The older sister made an allegation of indecent assault in 2007 to police at the start of a three-year investigation into child abuse on the island.
She said yesterday she told them of Savile's abuse when they interviewed her after a picture emerged of him with children from the home. The woman added: "It was brushed under the carpet. There should be an independent inquiry."
The TV and radio personality initially lied that he had ever been there. Eventually he admitted he had been to Jersey but it was "a million years ago".
Police found dungeons at the home, where children were systematically abused and tortured. [...]
Jersey Police said last night of Savile: "The allegation was investigated but there was insufficient evidence to proceed."

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4570674/Jimmy-Savile-groped-9-year-old-girl.html

CS

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 08:57 AM

EDIT: however it is worth noting that the CLAIMS ARE not 'new' as such, as the interviewee made a complaint against Savile to police back in 2007:

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 09:51 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/03/liking-young-girls-not-preference-perversion

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 10:22 AM

I am, as usual, being misquoted.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 02:26 PM

I don't much care for proclaiming guilt because there was an "aura of pervert". Guilt depends on being guilty, not having an aura.
I agree with you Richard.
I have not seen any television programmes, furthermore should people be tried by television?
but innocent until proven guilty is an important principle, if he is guilty which i think is possible,but still not certain, I feel sorry for the people he abused.
there are one or two convicted child abusers on the uk folk scene, one of them posts on this forum.
However I would not reveal that persons name to anyone publicly, because I do not believe in vigilantism, imo providing that person never works with children they have a right to remain anonymous
   imo it is not sufficent for them to say i have had my punishment, because they have messed up someone elses life or lives.,I find it very difficult knowing how to deal with someone who has abused children

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 02:33 PM

I didn't watch the programme but understand it was on ITV. Have not the Tory Party and their masters the Murdoch Press been trying to discredit the BBC for years for their own ends. Jommy Savile has turned up just in time.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 02:37 PM

I think one of the principal issues here is the apparent 'turning of a blind eye' by many different organisations. The Police, the BBC, the Managers of the Home etc. It seemed that the fact Savile was famous and ostensibly a saintly icon protected him from any investigation. I feel people are so shocked and disgusted because no-one dared to blow the whistle. The point is that the same scenario could happen today. Celebrity is so important and famous people are revered and idolised. So are men such as ministers of religion, scoutmasters, choirmasters, youth leaders, teachers, doctors etc. It takes a lot to challenge their integrity. CRB checks may not turn up anything of concern, and such positions provide a happy hunting ground for the perverted.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 08:02 PM

"Innocent till proved guilty" is a good principle - but is hard to apply in cases where no trial is possible.
.................................
There are two kinds of reason why accusations against high profile people may be dismissed out of hand. One is the case where the person is seen as too powerful,or where damage to an organisation is feared, etc. The other is where they are seen as incredible because the person is trusted and genuinely seen as above suspicion.

Neither kind of reason should be allowed to get in the way of responding properly to such accusations - but the distinction between the two should not be obscured. The first is a matter of corruption, the second is a matter of naivete. They both have to be resisted and eliminated, but the process of doing this is liable to be different.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,al whittle
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 08:28 PM

not sure why the distinction is so important. Fact is, lots of people let it go on - for all sorts of reasons


And there really isn't any reason good enough for this sort of thing happening.

Not sure where that leaves us other than we've all got to try harder. After all the laws are in place. they must be policed more effectively to protect youngsters. perhaps we need a special squad - for investigations and complaints where the suspected criminal is famous.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 02:38 AM

"I think one of the principal issues here is the apparent 'turning of a blind eye'"
While there appears not to have been enough evidence to act on complaints that were made against Savile, it seems totally unacceptable that he was allowed to go on working with children once these complaints were made - not as a punishment for unproved allegations, but simply as a safeguard.
This really is comparable with what happened in the clerical abuse cases.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 02:43 AM

...and other recent cases of child abuse being allowed to continue for years on a huge scale because it was inconvenient for the victims' testimonies to be believed.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 02:59 AM

The 2 linked Guardian articles, Spleen Cringe's and mine, both make a comparison with the Northern child trafficking cases.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/01/jimmy-savile-abused-children-documentary
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/03/liking-young-girls-not-preference-perversion




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 03:10 AM

What would we call the boss of the special squad? The Paedophile Finder General, perhaps.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 03:37 AM

"Northern child trafficking cases"

So far it seems the Yorkshire police were wilfully negligent in the Northern trafficking cases, showing no interest whatever in the victims' testimonies and treating them as compliant in their abuses -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/may/09/rochdale-grooming-trial-race

"Inconvenience" in no way came into those cases other than in the minds of those who would put it there   
This appears not to have been the case here, where there seems (so far) genuinely not to have been enough evidence to take action.
Won't be around for a week after today, but will be interested on my return to find if this has been turned into yet another 'Muslim Prejudice' thread - shame on those who would use a case of child abuse for such an agenda.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Felix Titling
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 03:53 AM

There were no witches, Doc - Matthew Hopkins was an opportunistic sadist. Paedophiles, on the other hand, are not only real, but they are rife. It is they who are the opportunistic sadists - and Sir Jimmy Savile OBE was one such.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 03:56 AM

Savile apart from his voluntary work at St James Infirmary in Leeds was an Honorary Churchwarden at St Johns Churh at Cragg Vale in Calderdale, I saw him there once, he had a huge caravan [ trailer ] to stop in, where there were also 2 very young girls who NEVER came out of the caravan all weekend.

The good people of Cragg Vale worshipped him for the good works he did , but they must have seen what was going on.

And all the while Savile preached about ' The Duchess ' [ his mother ] was the only woman he ever loved.

Why did he never marry ?

Why was he never seen with an adult woman friend ?

The man in my opinion was loathsome.

Dave H

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 04:06 AM

So far it seems the Yorkshire police were wilfully negligent in the Northern trafficking cases
Yes it does, and you have to ask why they were with just these cases.
As with the clerical abuse scandal, and possibly Savile, because of who the perpetrators were.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 04:33 AM

………… I saw him there once, he had a huge caravan [ trailer ] to stop in, where there were also 2 very young girls who NEVER came out of the caravan all weekend.


What did you do about it at the time?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 04:42 AM

It may come as no surprise to those not wearing tinfoil hats that Savile is likely to have used his 'charitable' work as an hospital porter, as a means to assault yet more vulnerable victims. And as in a number of other instances, although a complaint was made at the time of this incident, no further action was taken:

"June Thornton, now 80, claimed she was lying in a four-bed bay in the Brotherton wing after undergoing back surgery in 1972 when she witnessed the incident.
She said: "There is no doubt whatsoever that it was Jimmy Savile and that he molested that woman.
"I can still remember seeing exactly what he did. He just helped himself to her. He molested her. He rubbed his hands over her chest and further down her front."
Mrs Thornton, from the north of York, claimed that when she told a nurse, she took no notice and nothing was done. ""

More:

A NORTH Yorkshire woman was sexually assaulted by Sir Jimmy Savile as she lay strapped to a hospital trolley following a spinal operation, she has claimed.
The woman, who is now 55, said the abuse happened when she was 16 after she underwent the painful procedure at Leeds General Infirmary in 1973.
She told The Press: "I was on a hospital trolley when I was sexually assaulted by him. I was lying flat on my back. I was crying after having this procedure because I was in pain. He bent down and I thought he was giving me a reassuring cuddle, but he was inappropriate; he inappropriately touched my chest.
"I was wearing a thin hospital gown and he touched me on the top half. For that to happen in a hospital – well, I just did not know what to do. I was upset, but I was more in shock. I felt too frightened to report it because everyone thought he was a saint. This was somebody who was like having your dad around. He was a public figure.
The victim said she believes other women are coming forward now because they were too ashamed to report the attacks in an era where their allegations may not have been heard.
She said: "In the 1970s, if you tried reporting rape or sexual assault or something like that you were accused of making it up. It was the age when short skirts were in fashion and you were accused of leading the man on; that you were asking for it. I was brought up in a strict Catholic background and if I had told my parents, they would have thought I was making it up."

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/9968467.Ex_York_nurse_saw_Jimmy_Savile____molest____patient/?ref=rss

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 04:52 AM

"The man in my opinion was loathsome."
Yes he was - and obviously so to judge by some of the revolting self promoting film-clips shown on last night's Newsnight.
He was very much a part of the media's 'dumbing down' campaign of children's broadcasting.
Am I alone in yearning for the balmy days of 'Childrens' Hour' and 'Top of the Form' when (or so it seems to me' children were treated like future adults and not potention customers for pop-pap?
"just these cases."
Have I imagined that the man who was in charge of those largely responsible for the Hillsborough atrocity has just resigned after nearly half a century?
And we haven't even started to discuss their willingness to be used as a private army by Lady T
It seems the Yorkshire police have a record that would be more at home in a Mack Sennett studio than with a responsible police force.
Anybody attempting to make racist capital out of child abuse is a sicko - it finishes here as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 05:31 AM

No-one is Jim, but we know that "sensitivities of ethnicity with potential to endanger the harmony of community relationships" was considered to be an issue more important than stopping the abuse of vulnerable kids on an industrial scale.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 05:51 AM

Jim makes what I think is a very good point about the police in the 70s and 80s. Only a few years before Hillsborough the police in Yorkshire were beating seven shades of crap out of striking miners - or at best treating them like cattle. That's how they'd become used to dealing with large crowds of working-class men by the time of Hillsborough - plus they knew they could get away with it.

My father-in-law, on the other hand, was a police sergeant in Lancashire during the strike and never took a penny in overtime. His father-in-law was a retired miner and he knew he wouldn't be able to look him in the face if he did (despite being a Conservative voter himself).

Bit of a drift, I know, but Jim's remark just put me in mind of it.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 06:05 AM

Further to the reluctance of victims to 'tell' of their experience. When I was twelve, I often visited a female cousin at her home in Ealing, West London, with my parents and sister. She had a piano in the 'study' and she always let me go in there to play it (alone). Her husband was a creepy type, and on one occasion came in while I was playing, came up behind me and started to touch me very inappropriately. I absolutely froze. I didn't know what to do or say. Fortunately, my cousin's little boy came in looking for his Daddy and the creep left the room. I never spoke of this to anyone, and certainly not my parents. I just knew that they'd have been disgusted with ME for 'imagining' such a 'dirty' thing. Needless to say, I never again played that piano and stuck close to my mother during future visits. I relate this minor incident just to show that young girls don't always feel they can tell whayt has happened. They feel ashamed and try to forget it as best they can. We all need to be vigilant on their behalf.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 06:17 AM

""Don T, do you still think the alleged child victims might all be lying?""

Keith A, do YOU believe in trial by Media?

The evidence may well be overwhelming and I may well have decided the allegations are, on the balance of probabilities, true.

But I am not a judge, and neither my friend are you.

It is a very dangerous thing to try cases out of court, more especially when the accused isn't in a position to respond.

My only point in this thread is this. Do YOU believe it is right to ignore the most basic tenet of English Law, that every man is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law?

Now I'm out of here. The relish with which some of you have picked this man apart is slightly sickening.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 06:19 AM

Saville sexually molested lulu on juke box jury in the 60s on live tv . Nobody said or did anything about it

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 06:33 AM

"The relish with which some of you have picked this man apart is slightly sickening."

I am extremely glad that these allegations are coming to light. Indeed I am always glad when allegations of this sort are exposed rather than remaining dirty secrets. Very glad indeed that these crimes are no longer being concealed either by the victims OR by those who suspected by chose to do nothing, either for the realistic fear of being disbelieved, or for the fear of harm being done to careers. The more such crimes are revealed, the less easy it is for the systematic abuse of children by powerful people or within powerful organisations, to occur in the future. As someone who was abused, I have a deep and personal interest in such stories. I'm not ashamed of that. I'm also glad to see apologists leave this thread.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 06:52 AM

"Do YOU believe it is right to ignore the most basic tenet of English Law"
I go along %100 with this, but I do believe that there comes a point in the disclosures where the probability of it having happened becomes obvious and I think we might have reached that point.
It is immaterial whether the suggested culprit is alive or dead; if it is true that the BBC was aware of the possiblity that it was happening and they allowed Savile to go on working with children, they have a serious case to answer.
I think I am right in remembering that there have been at least three other 'media stars' who, it has been suggested, were involved in these claimed events - do we ignore the possibility that they are still out there and allow them to go uninvestigated, and maybe even to continue to practice their 'little weakness' in order to keep the memory of 'Sunny Jim' untarnished.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 06:56 AM

Don, we are not in court.
As a general rule, when child sex abuse is reported by the victim, they should always be listened to and believed if there is no reason not to.
Malicious allegations are rare, and the motive usually obvious.
Here we have numerous and disparate victims telling the stories that still haunt them decades later.

I believe them, as I did on the last occasion this came up.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Felix Titling-Blandiver
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 07:01 AM

Spot on, CS.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 07:02 AM

"there have been at least three other 'media stars' who, it has been suggested, were involved in these claimed events "

At least two that I'm aware of at present. "Gary Glitter" and Freddie Starr.
Starr initially sought and won a press silencing gag, but that has since been overturned and he has now been named as the "third star" alleged to have participated in a group assault upon underage girls from the Duncroft home for (quote) "emotionally disturbed" girls.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 07:53 AM

'Malicious allegations are rare'...Rare maybe but not that rare as to be discounted: ask some teachers who have been wrongly accused of child abuse by a vindictive child. Even when found quite innocent, the cloud hangs over the teacher forever. Threats of being reported to Childline for no good reason are not unheard of. Then we must consider false memory syndrome: patients under therapy 'remembering' incidences of abuse as a child which certainly did not occur but were planted, perhaps unwittingly, in the patients' mind by the therapist. Then there's jumping on the bandwagon to make a fast buck.
By all means listen to the child but with a critical ear. Children are not always sweet innocents: they can be vindictive liars too.
Not that the above is relevant to the current case.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Musket
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 08:34 AM

Saville could gag the press by threatening the risk of charitable giving through his aura.

Freddie Starr.. What the hell could he threaten? "Expose me and nobody will be able to laugh at my Hitler impression?" "The S*n wont be able to get a story over my hamster culinary arts? "

Sadly, power corrupts and I am not surprised to hear how you feel invincible when all around tell you what a superstar you are. You end up believing it. Base instinct kicking in can be such a small simple step...

Allegations need to be looked into. With Saville, that is not easy as there is no criminal case that can be answered, so we will not get the impartial forensic examination that a court of law could give it. Sadly, sensationalism and innuendo will be mixed with the facts, so we may not know the true story.

If, as many have pointed out on this thread, such exposures are a deterrent to others, then it can serve a purpose. One positive, if there can be a positive, is that most of this was a long time ago. With increasing public awareness, safeguarding training in public bodies including hospitals and The BBC, such occurrences would be far more difficult now than at the time of most of the allegations. Although those in charge of some Rochdale and Rotherham child care homes may wish to wonder why they bothered with safeguarding awareness training if they didn't do anything about it...

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,your willie
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 08:58 AM

My quote of 6.59 A.M. 3/10/12 shows that some at least were aware and critical of the issue even though at that time the age of consent was twelve.
L.C. and the sheep who agreed with her should at the very least give a thought as to why the subject was being aired. Was it because the problem was endemic when the facts were commented on?.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 11:45 AM

Was it because the problem was endemic when the facts were commented on?.
i think you are right

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Brian May
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 12:16 PM

I wrote this last October . . . wow was I fooled. Just seems you don't know do you?

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Brian May - PM
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 05:29 PM

My wife knew Jimmy when he was at the height of his fame. He used to go to the club she was managing in York., he was wonderful with all the staff, generous, considerate and down to earth.

She says he was an absolute gentleman at all times, even running her home in the early hours to York and having tea and biscuits with her mum and her before driving on to Scarborough to see 'the Duchess'.

The world is a dimmer place without him in it.

RIP Sir Jimmy, I wish I'd a memory like that too. Never heard anything bad about him - I'm glad about that.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 01:08 PM

And by contrast, from Savile's own autobiography (written in 1974) we have him writing about an incident at the Mecca Locarno ballroom in Leeds, where he worked as a DJ, when a female police officer came in with a photograph of "an attractive girl who had run away from a remand home".

Savile wrote:

"'Ah,' says I all serious, 'if she comes in I'll bring her back tomorrow but I'll keep her all night first as my reward'."

He then wrote that the girl did go into the club and:

"agreed that I hand her over if she could stay at the dance, and come home with me".

He wrote that he did then hand her over to the:

"lady of the law, who was dissuaded from bringing charges against me by her colleagues, for it was well known that were I to go down I would probably take half the station with me".


Not convicting him without a trial or anything, but it's telling that back in 1974 he felt so secure that he didn't even bother to hide his liking for "young girls".

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 01:33 PM

""I'm also glad to see apologists leave this thread.""

That is an insult which I don't deserve C.S.

I have nothing but loathing for child molesters, and I want to see every individual who had definite knowledge of this and concealed it taken to court, convicted and punished.

This does not in any way conflict with my distaste for the unholy glee with which the Media (and some Mudcatters) have chosen to destroy not only the man for the evil he has done, but also everything good which was also achieved through his actions (see the comments re charity work in this thread).

It leaves a rather nasty taste in the mouth, and one can't help wondering why almost all of the victims waited so many years to come forward.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 02:02 PM

I'm afraid, for me, all the good he has done etc is totally wiped out by his predatory way of life as a paedophile. I suspect his charity work was cunningly planned solely to give him access to possible victims and to boost his self-image. He loved the limelight and it gave him a kind of immunity. 'Leaves a rather nasty taste in the mouth...' well, sticking his tongue in young girls' mouths (and worse) leaves a VERY nasty taste in mine!! A monster who does 'good works' is still a monster.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 03:07 PM

I don't believe anyone can be found guilty of a crime if they cannot defend themselves can they? Anyway - Saville will never have to face court but he does appear to be guilty of the crimes if we believe what we are told. Trouble is - Does anyone benefit from this apart from the press and media? The same kind of who gave him the opportunity to do these things are now making another fortune out of it. Sad really.

Surely the only good that can come of it is that the victims can now relieve themselves of the burdens that he placed on them and that would be best done in private and with dignity. Don't give the Sun and Telegraph and the BBC and Rupert Murdoch the benefit of making another penny out of him. Consign all their rubbish to the bin and let the victims recover in peace.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 06:36 PM

And we haven't even started to discuss their willingness to be used as a private army by Lady T...
Anybody attempting to make racist capital out of child abuse is a sicko...
Jim Carroll
.,,.
How about trying to make anti-Thatcherite capital out of it, hey Jim?

~M~

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 08:50 PM

More Evidence That Margaret Thatcher Was Racist, Everyone Fairly Unsurprised
3:11 pm - 12/30/2009
Margaret Thatcher complained about Asian immigration to Britain

Margaret Thatcher thought it was "quite wrong" for immigrants to get council houses ahead of "white citizens", previously unpublished government papers show.



Files released to the National Archives show that soon after becoming prime minister, Lady Thatcher privately complained that too many Asian immigrants were being allowed into Britain.

The documents, which are published today under the "30 year rule", shed further light on Lady Thatcher's attitudes on race and immigration, political issues that have remained controversial ever since.

They show that in July 1979, Lady Thatcher met Lord Carrington, her foreign secretary, and William Whitelaw, then home secretary, to discuss the plight of hundreds of thousands of "boat people" fleeing persecution in communist Vietnam.

The prime minister, who had publicly said that she sympathised with fears that Britain was being "swamped" by immigrant cultures, reacted sharply to the ministers' suggestions that thousands of the Vietnamese refugees should be welcomed.

Lord Carrington, who had visited refugee camps in Hong Kong where some of the boat people were being held, gave a "vivid account" of the conditions there, the minutes show.

He suggested that Britain take 10,000 of them over two years. Failure to take a significant number would lead to a "damaging reaction" at home and abroad, he said, and anything less than 10,000 would be "difficult to sustain" on the world stage.

But Lady Thatcher said that there were already too many people coming into Britain, according to the minutes.

She said that "with some exceptions there had been no humanitarian case for accepting 1.5 million immigrants from south Asia and elsewhere. It was essential to draw a line somewhere".

Mr Whitelaw entered the debate, suggesting to the prime minister that refugees were a different matter to immigrants in general.

He said that according to letters he had received, opinion favoured the accepting of more of the Vietnamese refugees.

Lady Thatcher responded that "in her view all those who wrote letters in this sense should be invited to accept one into their homes," the minutes disclose.

"She thought it quite wrong that immigrants should be given council housing whereas white citizens were not."

Lady Thatcher asked what the implications of such a move could be given that an exodus of the white population from Rhodesia – now Zimbabwe – was expected once majority rule was established.

She made clear, however, that she had "less objection to refugees such as Rhodesians, Poles and Hungarians, since they could more easily be assimilated into British society".

The meeting was held about 18 months after Lady Thatcher made comments in a television interview that came to be seen as a watershed in mainstream politicians' handling of race and immigration.

"People are really rather afraid that this country might be rather swamped by people with a different culture," she told World In Action.

"If we do not want people to go to extremes we ourselves must talk about this problem and we must show that we are prepared to deal with it," she added. "We are not in politics to ignore people's worries. We are in politics to deal with them."

The comments were held responsible for a collapse in support for the National Front, which had been gathering momentum in working class communities.

Read more at ONTD Political: http://ontd-political.livejournal.com/4945894.html#ixzz28TYDzLjC

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 01:42 AM

All parties including Labour now agree that immigration has been at too high a level.
I think that Labour is also now in favour of a higher priority for housing be given to those who have been waiting for years.
Not sure why Fatcher is essential to every thread.
What was your point Jim?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 03:56 AM

Amazing how discussing whether one person was a monster leads to discussin whether another person still is.

The difference I suppose is both used public acceptance of one side of their nature to disguise their aims in other aspects. A difference between buggering kids and buggering their chances.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 04:39 AM

Jimmy Savile was a strong supporter and personal friend of Margaret Thatcher. Jimmy Saville actually stayed at Chequers with Thatcher for ELEVEN successive NEW YEARS EVES. Their friendship is well documented.

It would appear they have much in common. They both shafted minors in the 1980's.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 04:43 AM

Its a strange business - as I find myself keep repeating.

Don raises an interesting point. Why didn't the press latch on to these complaints. They certainly did with Benny Hill's casting couch antics - must have been round about the same time.

Why is it only now? Nobody's defending the guy....but why now?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 04:57 AM

Alan, when I refreshed this thread on the 1st October a few leaped on me in Savile's defence, that seems to have abated.

Strange that none of those who blew smoke up his arse prior to my post of 1st October returned to comment.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 05:15 AM

Liz Kershaw describes how Savile's predilection for young girls was "an open secret at the BBC" and also of how her own complaints about being groped by a (unnamed) coworker, were dismissed. Evidence is beginning to stack up against the BBC that the corporation knew full well what was going on in alcoves in dressing rooms:

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2012-10-06/liz-kershaw-savile-claims-were-open-secret-and-another-dj-groped-me/

"Ms Kershaw, who now works for Radio 6 Music, said that when she joined Radio 1 in 1987 - the year Sir Jimmy left - his behaviour was an "open secret" at the station.
"The rumours were there, the jokes were there. It was an open secret," she told the BBC Radio 4 Today programme.
"Round Radio 1 everyone joked about Jimmy Savile and young girls. The main jokes were about his adventures on the Radio 1 Roadshow. It was massive then.
"There was one presenter who routinely groped me. I would be sitting in the studio with my headphones on, my back to the studio door, live on air, and couldn't hear a thing except what was in my headphones, and then I'd find these wandering hands up my jumper fondling my breasts," she said.
"I couldn't say anything, I couldn't even explain because I was broadcasting to the nation. When I complained to somebody they were incredulous and said 'Don't you like it, are you a lesbian?"'

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 05:35 AM

Scanning through yet more allegations this morning. My guess is there will indeed be a number of 'celebrities' still living, who may be forced out of the shadows. This morning a close family member corroborates victims and witnesses allegations:

Savile's nephew speaks of being taken to uncle Jimmy's parties at age thirteen:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2213636/Uncle-Jimmy-took-sick-parties-Nephew-tells-childhood-stolen-13.html

"Other members of Savile's family spoke out last week to condemn a TV programme alleging the DJ sexually abused teenage girls, but the nephew said many relatives were aware of his sordid past. ...
'At night you would get about 15 or 20 people turning up [at the house where the parties were held}. There would be music and tables full of food, we couldn't believe it. There was everything we needed and we just hung around.
'At first we automatically assumed the children lived there, but we soon realised they didn't. They would be brought there, sometimes by Uncle Jimmy, and would stay for six or seven hours until 3 or 4am. They were just little kids, boys and girls.
'Two or three would go off and come back later. The really strange thing was that they didn't come out the bedrooms kicking and screaming. None of them seemed to be in any distress, but there is no doubt at all in my mind what they were being used for. [...]
Guy said he believed he and his friends were there to 'keep the kids happy'. He said: 'I didn't think anything about it at the time, maybe because there was no such thing as paedophiles back then. I never saw Jimmy Savile sexually abuse any of the children, but as far as I am concerned he was part of a paedophile ring at those parties.' [...]
'Although I was not sexually abused I do feel like a victim myself. I think I should have reported him years ago but I was too scared to do it.
'Now I am really pleased everyone knows the truth.'

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 05:41 AM

Fortunately, regarding sexual harassment in the workplace, there is much more scope for complaint and bringing perpetrators to book than there was thirty years ago. And workers are (I believe) more ready to defend themselves forcefully against inappropriate sexual behaviour. But I wonder if a child or young teenager bringing allegations of sexual attack against a popular celebrity would be listened to more readily today? Especially perhaps a wayward teenager who had for example already been in trouble with the law? I have my doubts, sadly.
(By the way, the man who did that to me all those years ago, my cousin's husband, was a family doctor! I've often wondered if he did those things to his patients?)

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 06:03 AM

The reason he got away with it so long was because his very survival depended on being shrewd. For example, once the police became involved, he became guarded, possibly employing a different approach. Not saying or doing anything that could be later used against him in the event of surveillance or even possibly a cunning "honey trap" being employed to get him to say or do something that would play into the hands of those out to ensnare him, example, "lifting the block".

Working together as a group, gathering what some may consider as factual evidence isn't always enough to secure a prosecution. Possibly the visit from the police was an attempt to "put the wind up him". The question remains, did it ? There will never a prosecution, unless someone brings a civil case, which as we all know is outside the financial means of most.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 01:38 PM

As has been pointed out, he will never be convicted and is beyond punishment.

If I were a victim of serious abuse, I would be shouting it from the rooftops immediately, not waiting until the only possible revenge fell, not upon the criminal, but on the other, innocent, members of his family.

I just hope that this sudden rush of accusers will be made VERY aware that the only people they are affecting never did them any harm at all.

I hope they get some satisfaction out of that.

Dealing with those who knew and did nothing is a separate issue and I earnestly hope that THEY will pay the price.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 04:46 PM


If I were a victim of serious abuse
You are not a frightened young girl who has been forcibly abused and humiliated by a physically and socially powerful man who everyone else regards as a saint.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 06:03 PM

""If I were a victim of serious abuse
You are not a frightened young girl who has been forcibly abused and humiliated by a physically and socially powerful man who everyone else regards as a saint.""

Neither are you!

So hows about taking the WHOLE of my post and considering what it actually says in context.

Try something new, why don't you?

Don T.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 06:08 PM

Neither on this nor the previous thread have you shown any empathy or expressed any sympathy for the abused kids.
Just protected their abusers.
Heart of stone Don.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 06:14 PM

Of course I sympathise with the victims and have said so.

Do YOU understand what I said about the effect on innocent members of his family?

NO! Heart of stone Keith? Or do you see a gain from this in terms of punishing a man who is too dead to give a shit?

Don T.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 06:56 PM

Liz Kershaw is reported at more length in another story:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19856081

Ms Kershaw, 54, who joined Radio 1 in 1987, said the station had changed out of all recognition since the 1980s. [...]

The main jokes were about his adventures on the Radio 1 Roadshow. It was massive then.

"It was rather like the X Factor going round the country then. Can you imagine the X Factor judges rounding up the contestants and asking for sexual favours after the show? I don't think so," she added.

You know what? I do think so. Shows like The X Factor are not one bit less sleazy and riddled with institutional creeps playing power games than TV was in Savile's day. Of course some of them are abusing their position. 15 years is nowhere near long enough for the sort of cultural change Kershaw says has happened - not without a couple of layers of management being taken out and shot, anyway. She's talking like a Catholic church bureaucrat on a damage limitation exercise.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 07:07 PM

Innocent members of his family are innocent.
The shame is all his.
Did you read his nephew's account of his experiences as a child at parties for children and men?
Did you know that at least one poor kid, a 15 year old, topped herself because of what he did to her?
It was all found in her diary.
If only she had been strong like you, she would have shouted her disgrace from the rooftops, but she was just a frightened kid.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 07:18 PM


Of course I sympathise with the victims and have said so.
You have not Don.
Not once.
Heart of stone.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 03:17 AM

'...shouted his disgrace from the rooftops...' . My unpleasant experience left me for some reason ashamed and as if I myself were to blame. The very last thing I'd have done would have been to tell anyone. The man was a GP, and always welcomed us to my cousin's house congenially. My parents liked him a lot and were proud their niece had married a doctor. It would have been dreadful if I'd maintained he'd touched me in that way. I'd have probably been punished severely for 'imagining' such a thing. It would have been catastrophic, I was only twelve. Now of course. if anyone took liberties, I'd break their neck. (I weigh quite a bit.)

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 04:37 AM

You really don't get it do you, Don? The victims were often embarrassed and ashamed and also afraid that they wouldn't be believed becasue Savile was such a pillar of the community. Seems pretty obvious to me - and probably to anyone with an iota of imagination who isn't just being stubborn to prove a point.

Mother-in-law was talking yesterday about the time he abused her and was wondering, after over 60 years, whether she ought to say something so that people would realise he was a predator right back in the late forties, early fifties. Why didn't she speak out at the time? Well, she was very naive and innocnet, her father had died and she didn't get on with her mother, so it wasn't until a couple of years later that she confided in my father-in-law. She has lived with this for over 6 decades but now says that she feels his exposure has had a cathartic effect.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 05:18 AM

Those coming forward claiming to have been abused by Savile, now verging on one hundred.
A further witness reported Savile to police in 2004, accusing him of taking child sex holidays in Goa. Again, this was reported at the time, and yet again there was supposedly "not enough evidence" to proceed.

"Many were aged nine and 10 when they claim the TV favourite molested them at the height of his fame.
Savile, who died last year at 84, is even alleged to have abused girls into his 70s.
We can reveal a British man told Scotland Yard in 2004 he was making trips to Goa in India to have sex with children. The witnesss said Savile went to villages to pick up girls. But police said they needed more evidence."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/jimmy-savile-almost-100-victims-make-1365264

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 09:08 AM

Yes I see a gain , Don.

Its like those museums to the holocaust. We see the depths humanity will sink to. We are on the lookout, and suspect the motives of the next baddie that comes along.

Its a negative sort of thing, but its a gain - of a sort.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 09:13 AM

Charities associated to Savile are speaking of making donations to organisations that work with and support child abuse victims. I'm heartened to see this response. I also suspect that the high profile nature of this story will encourage many more (not just those assaulted by Savile) to seek the help of such organisations.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 12:43 PM

And what about the flamboyant and effusive monument to the man where, I believe, he is buried? I heard it has already been vandalised. Do people think it should be removed or replaced with something more low-key? Difficult to know what to do with it.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 02:04 PM

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 07:18 PM


Of course I sympathise with the victims and have said so.
You have not Don.
Not once.
Heart of stone.

Keith, if someone says they sympathize, then for you to come back and say they don't is not only silly, it is pointlessly argumentative. You keep so many arguments going because you won't listen to what people tell you.

This guy sounds like a creep. But he's a dead creep. It might have been better to describe the allegations against him in a separate thread, but that didn't happen. Give it a rest.

SRS

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 04:17 PM

"It might have been better to describe the allegations against him in a separate thread,"

Why?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 04:32 PM

Well this one is rather long - and having as an Obit doesn't seem particularly appropriate.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 02:57 AM

Sage, I could not say if he sympathises or not, but he said that he had expressed that sympathy, and I said that he had not.

He had said that Savile's abuse of young girls should be kept quiet until he was convicted, i.e. never, and he had expressed sympathy for Savile's family, but for the victims, nothing.

(just like last time)

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 03:31 AM

"Well this one is rather long - and having as an Obit doesn't seem particularly appropriate."

Obituaries are for information about the deceased's life, as such this aspect of Savile's life is as 'appropriate' for discussion here as any of the other things he was previously famous for.

Joe has also stated earlier on this thread that he is OK with Obit's on MC carrying discussions about the more unsavoury aspects of the deceased's life also. I'm sure he would have - and still could - separated the thread if he felt it were required.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Musket
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 03:58 AM

Generally speaking, and many newspaper editors would agree; one of the advantages of an obituary being after someone has died is that it lowers the risk of being sued for what you say.

An obituary is not an eulogy but, as CS says, information about their life. Nobody ever said any obituary had to be balanced, sound in evidence or positive. At this stage, there are serious allegations and if he were alive, our judicial system of prefacing everything with "alleged" would hold true.

As he cannot be taken to court, it will be difficult to get a fact "beyond all possible doubt" but in any event, the account of many people cannot be ignored. There are however, many others still alive whom he shared his time with, and perhaps waiting for the sword of Damocles to fall their way.

Anyway, it's been a while since Gary Glitter was in prison last...

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 04:08 AM

The Beeb has caved and finally agreed - under mounting pressure, including from Cameron - to hold an internal inquiry.

I wonder if this will be in any way useful, or as they previously stated, will it merely serve as a hinderance to the police investigation?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 04:10 AM

It isn't the 'Obit' part of the thread title which doen't seem to fit, it's the RIP!

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 05:04 AM

Changing just one letter in the thread title would do it. Odd that "Rot In Hell" never gets an acronym.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:11 AM

RIP

Rest in Purgatory ?


hmmm.. notice the last 2 syllables of 'Purgatory'.. that's interesting...

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 09:14 AM

The story has moved on.
He is now seen to be just among the worst of many.
There was (is?) a culture in the entertainment industry where successful male performers regarded all females as available.
Only a minority succumbed to this cultural pressure, but a significant minority did.

Those who should have protected the victims failed to act or even investigate complaints, because of who the offenders were.

No wonder it was twice likened to the Northern trafficking cases by "radical socialist" Mark Sawatka on the last R4 Any Questions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01n1vwk
29 minutes in.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:06 AM

RIP

Repulsive Irredeemable Pedophile

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:25 AM

Rot in Purgatory - which is apparently, for those interested in trivia, a Batman episode.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:35 AM

"There was (is?) a culture in the entertainment industry where successful male performers regarded all females as available."

A culture of misogyny certainly prevailed within a number of industries - most no doubt - up until the recent past. And no doubt does so to a somewhat lesser extent today.

However, I think a culture of both sexism and related agism exclusively towards women are today still probably more prevalent within the entertainment industry/ies than in many others which have moved on. One only has to watch prime time TV (which admittedly I don't anymore) with a clear eye, to see it.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:41 AM

Guest Martin - What do you mean by

Strange that none of those who blew smoke up his arse prior to my post of 1st October returned to comment. ?

If by 'blew smoke up his arse' you mean praised him in some way then you are wrong. I praised him - Second post on the thread I think. That was before I was aware of the allegation against him. I have posted since with my views that he does seem guilty but only the media seem to be benefiting. I will certainly not praise him any more but your choice of phrase does leave a lot to be desired.

I also like Runrig, Jethro Tull, Ashley Hutchins and John Tamms. I would certainly not choose to orally introduce any tobacco by-products to their nether regions...

DtG

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:51 AM

Unfair to be critical of those who praised his work prior to these allegations coming to light. No-body bar the victims (and it would seem those who moved in celebrity circles) knew anything unsavoury about Savile during his lifetime. I certainly didn't.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 01:21 PM

Obviously even the Queen was impressed by the man, since she knighted him.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 01:36 PM

That is not her decision. We are a constitutional monarchy.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 01:40 PM

I should also say that women tend to be more available to men who are notable successes, and that such men often assume that women will be available. Otherwise, to CS, yes, it is still the case that women are judged to a large extent on the sexiness of their appearance. Some founder feminists were well (I think) aware of this and are reported to have gained large amounts of weight specifically to add gravitas to their presence.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 02:55 PM

You are wrong CS he wasa reportd to the police on several occaisions, so people did know.

Dave H

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 03:12 PM

Dave, I think Eliza probably meant those who have praised JS on this thread, ('blown smoke up his arse', to quote Guest Martin's delightful turn of phrase) who were unaware of his apparent behaviour. I certainly had no idea about any of the stuff he's reputed to have got up to, and there's no reason why, in view of the conspiracy of silence which seems to have been conducted by his peers, anyone outside 'Show-Biz' should or would have known.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 04:36 PM

An "obit" is normally what we get at the time of death. If something unsavoury comes to light well after someone has been dead and buried or burned (as quite frequenty happens), and we wish to discuss it, I think normally the convention would be to start up a new thread, rather than to revive an old "obit" thread.
.............................

The suggestion that people who posted to the obit thread saying stuff about Jimmy Saville, echoing the favourable image that the media had presented, ought to be criticised at this time is just nasty - in fact I'd say it reflects what can fairly be described as a witch-hunting mentality.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 04:37 PM

You are wrong CS he wasa reportd to the police on several occaisions, so people did know.
Dave H

Agreed, those who knew included a select group. Both those who moved in celebrity circles, and those police to whom his activities were reported to. About six complaints to police now, I believe, that we are aware of? I'm unsure how many were made during Savile's lifetime.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 04:59 PM

Sorry Dave, I was referring to CS's post, nothing to do with Eliza.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 05:13 PM

he wasa reportd to the police on several occaisions, so people did know.

I am a people and I didn't know. Or do Gnomes not count as people? That's how it started in Nazi Germany you know...

DtG

And now I claim Goodwins law!

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 01:18 AM

The obit thread was revived by a Guest.
Guests can not start new threads, only revive old ones.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 01:55 AM

DtG ~ Godwin's, actually.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 03:24 AM

Dave, if you really are a gnome, then no you do not count as a person, this is not to say your observations are invalid or not welcome, they are.

Dave H

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 03:47 AM

We must also consider the fact most of this occurred in the 1970's, a different time, and sadly a very different attitude to abuse. I recall the late John Peel gave a very open and frank interview about young girls visiting the BBC some years back.

During the seventies and eighties abuse took place in the church and the BBC. Young boys with big ears were favoured by priests, girls of all ages hung around dressing rooms in the BBC, in the hope of seeing a celebrity or getting an extension to their spine.

Some subjects were taboo then. We all recall as children, our fathers changing the channel if some guy gave someone a length during "I Claudius."

Let us hope the victims of his abuse can move on.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 04:46 AM

Footage has emerged which proves that Starr's claim to have never been at the BBC and to have never met Karin Ward - who accused him of groping and humiliating her for her "lack of breasts" in Savile's BBC dressing room, when she was 14 - is untrue. She is seen beside him in 1974 on filmed footage of BBC's Clunk Click, which Savile hosted.

Some have suggested there may have been a ring of abusers preying on young girls at the BBC, including Savile, 'procurers' and other celebrities of the time. I think, considering both the way that abusers like to work and the ease of celebrity access to young girls, that this is entirely plausible. So far as we know however, this is the only allegation against Starr to have come to light thus far.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9595319/Freddie-Starr-did-appear-on-Jimmy-Savile-show-with-accuser.html

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 06:36 AM

Just listening to an interview on radio 4, seems he will be posthumously stripped of his knighthood shortly. Several plaques have already been removed from buildings he opened. Charities up and down the country are distancing themselves from him.

He visited the Queen several times, attended her parties, rang in the New Year in the company of three past Prime Ministers and was the patron of 19 Royal charities.

Seems a sickening news story concerning him and Gary Glitter is about to break.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 03:11 PM

MtGM - Do you feel really big correcting little people?

If so, feel free. Always happy to help anyone feel better about themselves...

:D tG

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 09:13 PM

What was Godwin's Law?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 12:43 AM

You will find Godwin's Law in Wikipedia, Al. It states that the longer any thread on any subject continues anywhere on the Web, the likelihood increases of a comparison, relevant or not, of a comparison with or ref to Hitler/Nazis.

Dave ~~ 'accuracy matters' is ever my watchword. But it just so happens that for personal reasons I am partic sensitive to that one: my dear first wife Valerie's maiden name was Godwin, and people would say Goodwin [just as I was so often 'Myers'!], which always drove my in-laws wild. Apologies for being such a bore! {Tho must remind yet again of the person on another forum who posted "MGM, your pedantry is legendary"! One has an image to maintain when one is a legend, you know.}

Best

~M~

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 02:34 AM

I notice his headstone has been removed at the request of his family out of respect to the alleged victims.

Can't help thinking that as well as the reliving of traumatic experience people are going through as they come forward with what was bottling up inside for so many years, Saville's family are also going through a hell they never asked for. You have a family member you can have pride in, institution and all that and suddenly it all comes crashing down at a level where being related carries a stigma they neither want nor deserve.

Not many winners on this thread eh? I related a story about meeting him when the thread started last year. Makes you think...

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 02:54 AM

A police statement describes him as "a predatory sex offender" so no question of concealment any more.

The question is why were complaints never followed up?

Abuse victims should be listened to, and child abuse never ignored for fear of upsetting the offenders' relations or community.
It is extraordinary that it even needs saying, but that is what has happened here and in the Northern child trafficking cases.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 04:18 AM

One interesting fact which I read this morning is that his Honour dies with him, so there's no need to strip him of it posthumously. Therefore one should refer to him as Jimmy Savile, NOT 'Sir'. Good!

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Silas
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 04:29 AM

Time for a thread title change as well then?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 04:39 AM

Martin: Just listening to an interview on radio 4, seems he will be posthumously stripped of his knighthood shortly.

My understanding is that there'd have to be a change in the law for this to happen. The PM apparently said that there is a process for stripping people of titles, but he didn't appear to realise that it applies to living individuals only. There is no mechanism in law for stripping honours posthumously, AFAIK.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 04:43 AM

His family apparently decided to remove his headstone out of respect for the sacred nature of the cemetery, and to avoid causing offence to mourners who came there to visit their own relatives' graves. I do feel very sorry for his family.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 04:47 AM

Could change the appearance of the country quite dramatically if they remove all sinners' headstones fropm cemeteries.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 04:52 AM

Yes, Greg, even that paragon of virture Karl Marx sexually abused his maid!

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Penny S.
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:07 AM

A friend of mine has made an interesting point. The numbers of affected women are now acknowledged to be large, even by the police. Some of the women must have told people, in their own family, or friends. Some of those relatives or friends must have felt sufficiently strongly to want to do something about what had happened.

So why the silence? Why no reports to police, complaints to the BBC, civil action, or people charged with attempting GBH on Savile?

My friend also points out that people with habits of Savile's sort don't start or stop suddenly. He must have been like it before he was famous.

Things don't quite add up - and I don't mean that the women concerned are making it up. It takes a lot of guts to come forward in issues like this - there's a lot of flak about attacking the women in this case, much nastier than the fairly mild "he's dead, let sleeping dogs lie" sort of thing here.

Penny

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:15 AM

Why no reports to police, complaints to the BBC
There were.
They were just not followed up.

civil action, or people charged with attempting GBH on Savile?

He had money and influence.
His victims did not.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:27 AM

"Why no reports to police, complaints to the BBC, civil action, or people charged with attempting GBH on Savile?"

As I think has been mentioned a number of times already, there were around four different police enquiries following complaints during Savile's lifetime.
At least one girl we know of made a complaint to staff at the Dunholm home for "disturbed girls", she was locked in a padded cell for several days to punish her for telling lies.
A member of staff at one of the hospitals Savile worked at, ignored another witness who complained after seeing Savile abuse a patient who was unable to defend herself.
I've read at least one comment on the internet (posted on a thread following Savile's death) describing an aggrieved boyfriend beating Savile up for groping his girlfriend (a student Nurse in Leeds) in public, there were (he says) numerous witnesses, hence Savile didn't seek legal redress.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:32 AM

For those who asserted that the women coming forward must all be gold-digging liars. It has been clarified in the press (no link to hand) that none of the complainants have sought or received any monies for their stories in the print press, the axed Newsnight programme or the ITV Exposure programme.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:35 AM

"He must have been like it before he was famous."

He was. Read my posts above.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:42 AM

Christopher Biggins has been one of the most outspoken concerning allegations that the BBC knew but protected Savile in order to keep the golden goose alive:

"The BBC are the real culprits because they covered it up because of the two big [TV] series they had with him and they were very, very out of order. That's absolutely true.
"There were heads of department [at the BBC] who should be held to account and I think it will come out who they were. The other thing was that they didn't want Stoke Mandeville [Hospital] to suffer, but I think they were wrong. Stoke Mandeville wouldn't have suffered."
People were "frightened" to expose Savile, he said. "Nobody could understand why nothing had been done, why the press had such a soft approach to it. He was an iconic character, in as much as raising so much money,

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:54 AM

I've looked at the headstone on a photo, and I wonder why they don't just keep the simple part which gives his name, age and dates of birth and death. It's the eulogy to the right of it which offends.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 06:01 AM

""Can't help thinking that as well as the reliving of traumatic experience people are going through as they come forward with what was bottling up inside for so many years, Saville's family are also going through a hell they never asked for.""

Careful Musket.

I said the same some way back and got a lambasting from our resident "cultural" expert.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 06:19 AM

The BBC know LOTS of things, but turn away....

I use what is below not for sympathy at all, merely to highlight what the BBC do.

They turned away from the vicious bullying, the constant and appalling breaking of their own House Rules that took place on their F&A board. They totally ignored my requests for an investigation into the people who were doing this. Eventually they issued a statement that no-one was allowed to mention my name, and no-one at all in the BBC was allowed to discuss the case.

This happened after I'd spoken to the head of their Customer Care department, who, on taking the trouble to read many of the threads concerned, had been incredibly sympathetic to me, and angry on my behalf, and on behalf of others too who had also been treated so badly. She told me to leave it with her for 2 weeks whilst she looked into it further. She was kind, sweet and incredibly helpful.

Two weeks later I rang back and spoke to her, to hear her say she was *desperately* sorry but she could no longer discuss *anything* to do with this case. "They got to you?" I said...She again apologised and and told me that she could not mention or discuss anything, and that the order had come from 'higher up'..."Lizzie, I am *so* sorry!" she said....

The BBC don't give a fuck.   

They truly think they are above everyone and worst of all, they protect their own. In my case they protected Smooth Ops and those who ran it and worked for it, who knew, firsthand what was happening, and actively encouraged what was going on too.

Saville was a nasty piece of work. He was more than likely born that way and stayed that way to his dying day. How *anyone* could think he was normal and Mr. Nice Guy, I've no idea...I could sense he was weird when I was very young, so why others couldn't I've no idea...

He may well have had 'information' on those within the BBC, which also helped him to keep their silence, who knows...

He was the worst kind of man too, abusing helpless people. The kind of people he told the public he was helping, making himself out to be a saint...

They shouldn't just remove his headstone, they should dig him up and then cremate him or throw his coffin far out into the ocean, for his very presence, even just his mortal remains, are an insult to anyone buried in that cemetery, and to those who go there to visit their loved ones.

Remove him from there and plant a most beautiful tree for all the women whose lives he fecked up.

And by the way, to the men who 'don't understand why these women didn't come forward earlier', thus inferring that somehow they're all lying, it took nearly 60 years for my mother to tell me she'd been sexually abused by her uncle, tom...(no capital letters for him) And she ONLY told me because she'd turned on the TV one morning to hear a chat show discussing sexual abuse of young women. One woman had also been abused in the way my mother had and out she came with it, out of the blue.."uncle tom did that to me".....

She barely said much more, other than telling me it happened when her parents (who lived down the road from him) left her with tom and his wife, Elfrida, now and then.....

Much of my mother 'fell into place' in an instant...Her fear of closed doors, locked rooms, her exasperation with her mother to continue to care for tom after his wife died, her refusal to help him in any way, anger rising in an instant at the mention of his name..Her over-protectiveness of me, her desire to keep me as 'young' as possible for as long as possible...keeping me close to her at all times, not letting me join things, as other children did, Brownies, Ballet etc....all were forbidden to me with no explanation...

Oh yes, these BASTARDS do such terrible damage! It's not just 'a quick grope' and 'What's the matter, love, get over it!"...It's not just exposing themselves and them assuming it doesn't matter, as it's *natural* (??) It's about Sociopathic Men who KNOW what they are doing is SO wrong, but they don't give a shit!

They do it and then they simply carry on with their lives, no thought for their victims, no thought of ever stopping, just taking what they want, getting their kicks how they want, when they want....

And meanwhile, back at The Ranch of Hidden Grief the damage ricochets down The Generations.....

So do NOT let me hear anyone else trying to excuse what this Sociopathic Bastard did, for there are NO excuses whatsoever!

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 06:25 AM

And...how many helpless women did he abuse repeatedly, I wonder?!! How many are there in the homes he visited, or worked at, who are still unable to this day, to explain to anyone, to talk, to communicate in any way at all about what happened to them.

Can you imagine their fear and horror when he would show up in their room? Imagine being helpless, not understanding the world, but knowing this man was going to hurt you, again and again and AGAIN!!

Get him OUT of that cemetery and make him 'disappear' in every way for he does not deserve the Earth to be his Protector! Let The Sanctity return to that cemetery, not in just removing his headstone but in removing HIM.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:25 AM

Don, every criminal has relatives.
It is no reason to keep quiet about their crimes.

How about some concern for the victims, instead of just for the perpetrators' relations?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 08:10 AM

For those who asserted that the women coming forward must all be gold-digging liars. It has been clarified in the press (no link to hand) that none of the complainants have sought or received any monies for their stories

However. I heard an interview in the last couple of days from a particularly creepy representative of the counselling industry. Who clearly saw Savile and his pals as job creation for her business - obviously EVERYBODY affected had to have months of counselling to open their personal can of worms and have it dealt with by an approved (and appropriately paid) professional.

The victims aren't gold-diggers but others are.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 08:54 AM

The story has now reached the US radio waves.

The link is to National Public Radio and you can read or listen to the story.

SRS

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Penny S.
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 09:27 AM

Leveller, I knew I had read something about him before TV, but I had read so much I couldn't remember where.

And CS, well done that student. There must have been other cases, though.

And so a major cover-up. And the BBC deeply implicated.

I hate the idea of that good rock going into landfill - torn out of a quarry, inscribed and then because of the inscription shoved back in the ground. What a waste.

Grind the surface off. Inscribe it as a memorial for injured women.

Penny

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 09:37 AM

A little picture gallery of his friends.

Jimmy Savile and Tony Blair

Jimmy Savile and Princess Diana

Jimmy Savile and Pope John Paul II

Jimmy Savile and Margaret Thatcher

another one with Thatcher

Jimmy Savile with William Hague

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 10:03 AM

Penny, WHY would you think those who have been abused by this man would want their name on a piece of stone that once adorned his grave?

Smash it to smithereens and get rid of every fragment of it, and him...

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 10:11 AM

Lizzie, I don't think Penny meant to put their names on it. It isn't the stone's fault it was used on his behalf. If it's a good piece of stone, reuse it and be glad it is put to better use.

SRS

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 10:29 AM

No, it's Tainted Stone.
This man was Evil...truly Evil.

And as for all those who kept silent, they were Complicit in what he was doing..

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Jim'll fuck it
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 10:43 AM

Wasn't it reported prior to burial that Saville's coffin
was to be encased in a deep layer of concrete to deter grave robbers ?

So now that's not the only reason he might fear being disturbed.

It may not be so easy to dig the vile old monster up.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 11:51 AM

""How about some concern for the victims, instead of just for the perpetrators' relations?""

I have nothing but sympathy for the victims. The difference between you and me is that you don't recognise that his family ARE among that group.

That is the last response you will get out of me on this, or indeed on your Paki bashing threads, though I will, if I feel so inclined make comments on the content of your biased maunderings.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Penny S.
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 01:18 PM

I wasn't thinking of names!

I don't believe that stone can carry the taint of something like that, and if it could be used for good, it should be.

But clearly enough people think it can be tainted that it should be pulverised.

It must be an enormous relief for some of the people concerned, like Leveller's MIL, to find that they were not alone.

And for people like the nurses who knew that things were not right but had no power to interfere (I've just seen reports from Stoke Mandeville from a patient who was advised to pretend to be asleep when he was on the ward.)

And I hope it is an enormous worry for those responsible for his private rooms in various institutions where, in one case, he was the only man allowed on the ward. What gave him his power? Made him able to put things into his autobiography that should have had the police on his doorstep with impunity? The whole thing stinks.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:11 PM

MtGM - I am partic sensitive to that one: my dear first wife Valerie's maiden name was Godwin

If that is any excuse I must also point out that my wife's maiden name is Goodwin! :-)

That aside the thread has taken a turn for the worse. I am just waiting for somene to suggest that anyone who committed a crime does not deserve to be buried. Maybe we should adorn the countryside with their rotting corpses on gibbets? Or maybe put their heads on spikes like in the good old days? Worse still, the suggestion could be that if the girls wore short skirts and make-up, as they often did in the 60s and 70s, then they were partly to blame. It has been said on Mudcat before!

DtG

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:37 PM

I thought nurses were supposed to 'care' for their patients, not knowingly leave them in the 'care' of sex abusers.

Curiouser and Curiouser....




Apparently he was buried upright so he 'could see the sea'- No comment

Coffins & Concrete

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 06:13 PM

Unbelievable. Are sinners no longer to be buried?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 09:54 PM

Cremate him. It's closer to where he ended up anyway, for those who have beliefs about this sort of thing.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 11:23 PM

DtG ~ The near-coincidence of our wives' similar names need not blind us to the fact that Accuracy Matters, & the guy under discussion who postulated the 'Law' was called Godwin, not Goodwin.

If this too prim or pompous or pedantic for you, tough titty. Such happens to be the fact. If you want to get all abusive about it, feel free. You will but place yourself.

~M~

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 01:11 AM

Mike Godwin said, you keep mentioning Hitler
You keep saying his name for no reason partitular
He was a lawyer was Godwin
Wouldn't let no sod win
he thought, that Lizzie Cornish, that won't half skittle her.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 01:36 AM

If you want to get all abusive about it, feel free.

Who is getting abusive and how?

And if accuracy is important it also happens to be a fact that, before Mike Godwin in 1990, a certain Theophilus Goodwin, Woodworker and collector or interesting bottletops, from Little Hulton near Manchester, postulated that if anyone ever mentioned the Germans on a thread everyone turned into Basil Fawlty and the thread died. Now this, as far as I remember, was back in 1987 and pre-dates Godwin by some time. Ever since then it has been refered to as Goodwins Law. Now, unless you happened to be in the same pub at the same time you would not have known this. So I forgive you. I suspect that Mike Godwin was sat in the corner with half a mild and a packet of prawn cocktail crisps when he stole the idea.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 02:45 AM

Don,
I have nothing but sympathy for the victims. The difference between you and me is that you don't recognise that his family ARE among that group.

I am glad to hear of your sympathy, because you have only expressed it for the rapists relatives.
I do not see his family as victims.
There are no parents, no wife and no children.
His nephew knew that he abused children so I am sure they all did, and they all benefited from his largess.

I have never posted anything bashing any ethnic group, and I would never use a racist expression such as you just used Don, but I do not think heinous sex crimes should be kept quiet to spare the rapists relations or community.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 04:29 AM

Greg, sinners may be buried, and in consecrated ground if desired. But to erect eulogistic tablets on their graves listing their wonderful works when in fact they were intrinsically evil goes beyond the pale.
Regarding his relatives, one can surely feel for them. They must be horrified and disgusted in equal measure. And I expect ignorant folk will try to get at them simply because they ARE his kin. If I found out a member of my family was a rapist and a paedophile I would suffer from shock and (illogically) shame.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 04:33 AM

Suppose they found out, did nothing, and allowed it to continue Eliza.

There is no reason to suppose that they did not know, and good reason to suppose that they did.
If they did they are part of the cover up that allowed the crimes to continue.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 07:36 AM

Best idea yet........

Relatives consider digging him up and cremating him

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Musket
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 08:26 AM

A bit of a mental leap to say his nephew knew he abused children so you are sure they all did.

Righteous indignation is one thing, but applying it to assumptions is another. Family of perpetrators of crime are a form of victim, as their world comes crashing down through no fault of their own. If anybody here had concerns that a famous relative may live up to the rumours you hear, how many of us would report to the police? Really?

No, even the nephew is a victim because like everybody else who has only just come forward, he knew that it would be you versus a man on a pedestal made of solid gold, with a wall of society and pandering media surrounding it.

That's the issue here. Not that Saville was a monster and abused his position for his sexual lust. The issue is that it was easier to put up with him than to crucify a role model in the public's eye.

And that is why this is such a story versus the next monster, and there are some in court all the time. Saville hits the headlines because he was protected by all and sundry, and all and sundry are examining their conscience right now.....

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 08:42 AM

Musket: "A bit of a mental leap to say his nephew knew he abused children so you are sure they all did."

I believe Keith is referring to assertions made by Savile's nephew Guy Marsden, who has accused Savile of using him as an intermediary between adults and younger children at paedophile parties when he was thirteen, had this to say about other members of Savile's family:

"Other members of Savile's family spoke out last week to condemn a TV programme alleging the DJ sexually abused teenage girls, but the nephew said many relatives were aware of his sordid past."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2213636/Uncle-Jimmy-took-sick-parties-Nephew-tells-childhood-stolen-13.html

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 08:46 AM

Caveat: While Marsen does assert that "MANY relatives knew of Savile's sordid past", he does not assert that ALL knew.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 09:55 AM

If they knew, then they were/are guilty of colluding with the monster.
And I can safely say that IF one of my relatives or friends turned out to be a paedophile I would definitely go to the Police about it. It would be my duty to get the abuse stopped. Whether the Police believed me would be up to them of course.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Musket
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 10:55 AM

CS. I would agree normally.

However, and please don't take this as being flippant. If it is in The Daily M*il, that doesn't mean anything other than a story to sell a paper. A nephew hasn't said anything. A newspaper that is known to tell lies, twist peoples' words and when all else fails makes them up has quoted his nephew. His nephew may have said what he did, and may have meant it but to tell that rag, you just cannot take it at face value. Both he and the paper have ulterior motive in saying such things, true or otherwise.

In light of the source, my comments still stand.

Saville may be whatever he was, but I'm not going to alter the weighting I give to Dacre's book of bullshit just because of the topic in question.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 11:05 AM

Musket, nearly ALL newspapers twist people's words, come ON! Most of them are Rags. Don't be so selective.

Janet Street-Porter blowing the whistle....

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 11:07 AM

All things considered,
perhaps the monster was sealed for all time in a steel casket
buried under a deep layer of concrete
as a precaution to prevent him getting back out again !!!???

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 11:13 AM

If anyone crossed this man, I'd imagine they so came to know about it....I should think he was able to instill a lot of fear into his victims.

When Louis Met Jimmy - Full Documentary

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Jim'll fuck it
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 11:19 AM

Dark side of celebrity charity collector:

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMjMxOTk4NjIwNl5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNTc1MzQyNw@@._V1._SX640_SY526_.jpg

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 11:21 AM

The issue is that it was easier to put up with him than to crucify a role model in the public's eye.

Lance Armstrong - the Jimmy Savile of cycling.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Jim'll fuck it
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 11:25 AM

Philanthropic voluntary youth work:

http://theredlist.fr/media/database/muses/icon/cinematic_men/1920/lon_chaney/08_lon_chaney-theredlist.jpg

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 12:07 PM

"In light of the source, my comments still stand."

I think that's fair enough Musket. In particular, The Mail do not offer a direct quotation from Marsden, which I would have been happier with myself than his supposed statement asserting 'many other family members were aware', being paraphrased by them. Also, thus far, no other paper has followed up his story to my knowledge, though I may be wrong on that.

That said, and purely for the sake of pedantry, I think Keith's point wasn't that we necessarily know for certain that all members of Savile's family were aware of his past, but merely that there was "some reason" to believe that others apart from the nephew interviewed, *may have* known.

Not being in any position to know the truth myself, I'm unwilling to pass judgement either way. Yet I do not believe that these allegations should continue to remain secret, purely in order to protect members of Savile's extended family from being embarrassed, disillusioned or upset by them being finally revealed.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Silas
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 12:11 PM

I really do think Jo or a mudelf should change the thread title - it annoys me intensly to see 'RIP' 'Sir' and 'disc jockey'

Should just say - 'Jimmy Savile - rapist'

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 12:18 PM

For what it's worth Silas, the Sir is in fact an no longer applicable, as evidently the honorific in facts dies along with the deceased.

So much for Cameron's interventions regarding "stripping" Savile of his Knighthood, as there is no longer any Knighthood, to strip Savile of.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 12:33 PM

But they are still Sir Francis Drake, Sir Walter Raleigh, Sir Lancelot of the Lake cont p 98, aren't they, tho dead for a much longer time? So he will presumably remain posthumously entitled to be known by the title unless formally posthumously deprived of such entitlement?

Not sure of the law here ~~ indeed, nobody seems to be. But it would do no harm, would it?, for a formal statement to come from The Court, to the effect that he should no longer be so referred to.

~M~

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 12:54 PM

This makes interesting reading http://timesopinion.tumblr.com/post/32804536645/jimmy-saviles-affections-laid-bare-by-jimmy-savile?fb_action_ids=210412662423117


I think it's also somehow approriate that he was buried in a coffin which was painted to look like something it wasn't - it looked like gold but the image was just a tawdry veneer

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Blowzabella sans cookie
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 12:57 PM

Sorry - that Guest at 12.54 was me

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 04:24 PM

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish - PM
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 11:13 AM

If anyone crossed this man, I'd imagine they so came to know about it....I should think he was able to instill a lot of fear into his victims.

When Louis Met Jimmy - Full Documentary
thanks lizzie

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:55 PM

I knew I had seen it somewhere!

Some rape victims should take the blame

I wonder how many of Saville, Glitter and Co.'s victims were complicit in their own abuse by wearing the wrong clothes, gushing over celebrities and behaving inappropriately?

Long thread. Too long to wade through but I suggest some people look at it closely to see who was supporting that view. :-(

DtG

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 03:01 AM

It was in The Mail and Mail on Sunday and has not been challenged.
Also
Telegraph 4 days ago
This weekend his nephew Guy Marsden reportedly said that at the age of 13 he was taken to parties at which men abused children as young as 10.

Mirror 5 days ago
Yesterday, Savile's nephew Guy Marsden, now 59, told how at 13 his famous uncle took him to "paedophile parties" where he believes girls and boys as young as 10 were abused. He said he and teenage friends were asked to befriend the even younger victims, although he was not a victim himself.

London evening Standard.
His nephew Guy Marsden said he warned the only two family members who had arranged for it to be put up that it was in "bad taste" and "a terrible idea".
Detectives have revealed that about 120 leads are being followed up, with five police forces involved. Scotland Yard says up to 25 young girls were allegedly targeted by the presenter over a period dating back to 1959.
The triple tombstone, put up last month in Scarborough cemetery, was taken to a stonemason's yard in Leeds where it will be ground down and sent to landfill. Marsden, 58, said: "That should never have gone up.
"Only one niece and nephew out of the entire family, and there are about two dozen of us, decided to put that thing up."
The roofer from Leeds said some members of the family were aware of the allegations against him but chose to celebrate his memory.
"There was talk about it being put up. I told them it was a bad idea as all of this stuff would one day come out and it'd look terrible. It had my mum's name on it too which sickened me. At least 12 of us wanted nothing to do with him."

MalaysianDigest


Guy Marsden, pictured left aged eight, and right aged 59 today, says when he was 13 his uncle Jimmy started taking him to 'paedophile parties'.A NEPHEW of Sir Jimmy Savile yesterday told how his celebrity uncle attended 'paedophile parties'.

Guy Marsden was just 13 when 'Uncle Jimmy' took him to a wealthy celebrity's house in London in 1967 for the first of many sordid social gatherings.

Over the next 18 months, Guy and his friends went to numerous 'parties' where he believes men sexually abused girls and boys as young as ten. Savile was at many of these events, he said.

Guy and his teenage friends were used as 'intermediaries' to hang out with the younger victims. Guy, now 59, said the youngsters would disappear into the bedrooms with men and return later.
He said there were 'never any women' at the parties and although he didn't see any sexual abuse, it was 'perfectly obvious' what was happening. Several household names from the world of showbusiness were party regulars.

Guy said Savile sometimes arrived with a man dressed as a priest and he believed the young victims may have come from an orphanage or children's home.

He has regularly spoken to friends about his experiences in the late 1960s, but no one took him seriously until this week's revelations.

'I have loved all this coming out about Jimmy and I feel guilty I didn't do something about it earlier,' he told the Mail yesterday.

After Savile died last year, Guy was one of the relatives who publicly praised him. But he knew he was being a hypocrite. 'I felt as low and as bad as you can get not saying anything.'

Other members of Savile's family spoke out last week to condemn a TV programme alleging the DJ sexually abused teenage girls, but the nephew said many relatives were aware of his sordid past.

The roofer from Leeds later married and he now has four children and ten grandchildren with his wife Anne.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 03:26 AM

Interesting that the Royal Marines acted as the guard of honour at Saviles funeral, they even carried his coffin with his honorary green beret and medal.

Today they announced, they are removing his name from their honorary roll. This on a day seven Royal Marines were arrested for murder. Nice attempt to cover their own little indiscretion.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 03:40 AM

He was a Sociopath, as I said above:



Profile of the Sociopath


BBC - Sociopaths (Yes, they could even have looked it up on their own website!)

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 03:54 AM

With the Marines he had no scope for child abuse.
How would they know any more than the rest of us what he was?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 09:49 AM

Civilian Saville's honourary Marines awards
were nothing more than the Regiment's equivalent
of giving him a Blue Peter badge
for completing their most difficult training yomp.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 05:48 AM

I agree with Silas and the title of this thread should be changed.

When I started this thread, I had no idea what an evil person he was, and would not have started it, armed with the facts that are coming out.

I feel many adults let these young children down, by not reporting him. How he got away with it, is just beyond belief.

Maybe the thread could be changed to just "Jimmy Savile :-("

Shortened, but the job and country were left for readers who aren't from the UK. --mudelf

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 06:26 AM

The BBC has just reported they are to be sued by a number of his victims. I am pleased to see more and more brave people are coming forward to expose the extent of his deeds.

I feel the thread title should remain as an example of how people were duped. It shows how many paid their respects to a man who had been questioned by police on more than occasion and a known predator of children by many in the entertainment business, yet they remaine silent allowing him to practice his evil deeds because many felt he was above the law due to his political connections, charitable work and a BBC icon.

I think the news that Gary Glitter is planning a UK comeback tour in the Spring of 2013 to be untimely.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 07:17 AM

There appears to be virtually nothing 'charitable' or professional this man has done, that he didn't exploit as an opportunity to molest children. Now abuse on the charity Variety's 'Sunshine Coaches' - for disabled and sick children - is coming to light.

I'm glad to hear the BBC shall be sued, this means taking evidence though the courts. Whatever the outcome, I believe it should help to draw a line under some of these events.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 07:59 AM

Who the feck would go and see that odious twat garry glitter ?

Him along with saVile and freddy starr, are three people I took an instant dislike to 20 years ago or more, I suppose freddy was quite funny, but you wouldn't have let him near your kids.

Dave H

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 08:31 AM

Just seen a story about the bloke who paid £160K for Savile's Rolls Royce. He is not a happy man. Probably no more than scrap value now.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eddie1 continuing sans cookie
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 08:59 AM

Seems he is about to be joined by someone I had REAL respect for!

John Peel?

Eddie

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 11:34 AM

Thanks mudelf

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 11:40 AM

Eddie1:

It's not news that John Peel had sex with under-age girls, either. His first wife was only 15 when they married (he knew this, and they both lied on the documentation to make it "legal"). He was 26 at the time.

And in a 1989 interview in the Guardian newspaper (which I still have somewhere) he waxed lyrical about the number of young women who used to queue up for sex with him when he was DJing in the USA. One of his quotes was "some of them were very young. It turned out that one of my "regulars" was 13, but she looked older".

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 12:43 PM

He even headed a Board of Managers for Broadmoor of all places. And was given his own set of gold-coloured keys. How in the name of Beelzebub did he manage that? It beggars belief.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 05:00 AM

"How about trying to make anti-Thatcherite capital out of it, hey Jim?"
No political capital Mike - Thatcher's fascist tendencies and mass-murderer friends were real and of concern to the British people.
Her party's rally to prevent Pinochet from being tried for holding thousands of his opponents at Santiago and later 'disappearing' them sums up pretty well British Conservatism with the mask off.
But then again, I would expect comparing the support for such a pair of monsters with child abuse from a Thatcherite - wouldn't I?
"All parties including Labour now agree that immigration has been at too high a level."
Still pumping the Iron Keith
"Not sure why Fatcher is essential to every thread."
I'm not sure why campaigns against immigration is essential to every (by you anyway) thread - but there you go
You'll have had your reply on "Fatcher" and her 'Savile' connections - as they say in Morningside - nice one Martin 'Lest We Forget'.
"Neither on this nor the previous thread have you shown any empathy or expressed any sympathy for the abused kids."
Yes he has - and he has not used them to attack an ethnic minority, unlike you
And your 'heart of stone' repetition in no way hides your persistent attempts to use abused girls as a stick to beat the poorest (and probably most law abiding) community in Britain - still present in this thread
I don't agree with all Don says, but I certainly share his distaste for the 'lynch Mob' mentality reflected here even before the presently known facts were uncovered.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: selby
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 05:54 AM

The thing that grips me in all this is that good old Jimmy is fiddling about therefore its alright, we will pretend its not happening. As for the Broadmoor caper it just beggars believe that you give the keys to a disc jockey. Who was the lunatic that suggested that then.
Saville has pulled off the biggest con trick ever and unfortunately got away with it, leaving damage every where he has been, including the charities he purported to help.
Keith

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 06:42 AM

As I suggested earlier, the high profile nature of this story has indeed enabled many people to seek to address abuse issues from their own pasts. From the Guardian:

"Pete Saunders, chief executive of the National Association for People Abused in Childhood (Napac), said its hotline had received 1,400 calls in the last 10 days – seven times its normal amount.
"If there is anything beneficial from this, it's that it's allowing victims and survivors of abuse to come forward and speak out,""

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/oct/13/jimmy-savile-victims-groups-calls?newsfeed=true

No better time for those charities associated to Savile to close up shop and donate remaning funds currently stagnating in banks, to abuse and mental health charities.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 08:19 AM

Can you not get into your thick head, Jim, that I am NOT a Thatcherite?! I am not an anythingite. Unlike you who are a anti-everything-that-most-normal-people-hold-dearite like all you Lefties, I am a floating voter without a great interest in politics; but with a great interest in justice, which was something that Maggie could never hope to get from the likes of you-lot over there practically out of sight on the far left wing.

I still think it abusive on your part to drag her into a thread concerned with someone whom she, along with everyone else, chose to be socially civil to, which was about her sum involvement with this now-but-not-then-seen-to-be-iniquitous subject of the thread.

Why not just go and start another of your beloved ant-Thatch threads. so that I shan't have to bother to read it?

~M~

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 08:53 AM

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 09:33 AM

Most valuable contribution to the argument, Mr Bridge; well up to your customary intellectual standards.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 11:22 AM

"I am NOT a Thatcherite?"
Hate to be the bearer of bad news Mike but anybody who responds to descriptions of Thatcher's attitude to crimes against humanity and mass murder with "she did some good things" is not only a Thatcherite but an apologist for those human rights crimes and mass murder (and then scurries away hurridly) IS A THATCHERITE (or a poor political satirist - take your pick)
Then again - I could be wrong - maybe it's good old middle-class gallantry that causes you to spring to the lady's defence every time her crimes are mentioned.
As Richard says - "if it walks like a duck......"
Savile and his ilk sum up the values of Thatcher's Britain pretty well
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 11:38 AM

Oh, dear, Jim. What a bore you are. If you must turn this into another of your THATCH-BASH THREADS, I would just remark that her diplomatically motivated affability to Pinochet, which you never stop drivelling on about, was not in the same league of iniquity as all your predecessors' interminable sycophantic adulation of Stalin in the late 30s, even after all the facts about the Moscow Trials came out. No doubt you yourself, had you been around, would have been one of those arse-licking 'useful idiots', as dear old Uncle Joe was wont to call them.

Ho-hum.

Your turn...


Grits teeth and stifles yawn...

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 12:26 PM

i find it sickening that all the politicians[blair and thatcher] wanted to be seen with Saville.
There was a time when politicians HAD PRINCIPLES, most of them now, apart from those on the far left or far right, are just doing it as a money making career.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 01:13 PM

" I would just remark that her diplomatically motivated affability to Pinochet, which you never stop drivelling on about, was not in the same league of iniquity as all your predecessors'"
And I would remind you that despite your squalid little attempred witch-hunt failed miserably to establish a connection between me and any particular political philosophy - leaving you to resort to your protege's tactic of inventing one - I'm afraid your short spoon at the dinner party is showing
Nor does it let you off the hook for your adulation of a friend and admirer of a mass-murderer
Even if there was the slightest truth in your guestimation of my politics, it still wouldn't make any difference to the Lady's political aspirations
"Diplomatically motivated" - "my arseum" - fascist apologist to the last
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 01:17 PM

Duck

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 01:28 PM

Dave the Gnome asks if Savile's Glitters and Co's victims were complicit in their own abuse' by wearing the wrong clothes, gushing over celebrities, inappropriate behaviour..."
Young teenagers will always be starstruck by famous people, want the latest fashions and behave in a silly way until they become more mature. Is this ANY reason for a pervert to profit from this and go ahead to rape/abuse them?? It is NEVER the fault of the victim and ALWAYS the fault of the abuser. Paedophiles in Prison and online claim the children 'love it' and 'ask for it', 'it' meaning being raped. This reminds me of those who say women who are raped 'ask for it'. All teachers for example know that young pupils can get a 'crush' on them. They take great care to discourage it and to distance themselves from the child's emotional state. I'm very angry about this attitude that any paedophile can help himself to whatever arrives in front of him.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 01:35 PM

Tempted to start another thread on Th*tcher so Jim Carroll can waffle on about a country he loves so much he buggered off.

This is about Saville, his sexual methods for gratification and control of vulnerable children and adults, and how society allowed him to get away with it because his image was too useful to destroy.

That goes to the heart of society, not the flavour of government for 10% of his life.

If you can twist Saville stories to include that bitch, you are no better than The Daily M*il and its excuse to use him for it's vendetta agenda against whatever the hell they hate this week.

You concentrate on buggering priests and allow those who haven't failed as UK citizens to worry about UK monsters.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 01:59 PM

Nor does it let you off the hook for your adulation of a friend and admirer of a mass-murderer
Even if there was the slightest truth in your guestimation of my politics, it still wouldn't make any difference to the Lady's political aspirations
"Diplomatically motivated" - "my arseum" - fascist apologist to the last
Jim Carroll
Nor does it let you off the hook for your adulation of a friend and admirer of a mass-murderer
Even if there was the slightest truth in your guestimation of my politics, it still wouldn't make any difference to the Lady's political aspirations
"Diplomatically motivated" - "my arseum" - fascist apologist to the last
Jim Carroll
Nor does it let you off the hook for your adulation of a friend and admirer of a mass-murderer
Even if there was the slightest truth in your guestimation of my politics, it still wouldn't make any difference to the Lady's political aspirations
"Diplomatically motivated" - "my arseum" - fascist apologist to the last
Jim Carroll

Ho hum
yawwwwnnnnnn
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 02:02 PM

Jim, I must have read hundreds of your below the line posts.
They are all written from an extreme radical Left perspective.

That may mean nothing, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck.....

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 02:03 PM

Nor does it let you off the hook for your adulation of a friend and admirer of a mass-murderer
Even if there was the slightest truth in your guestimation of my politics, it still wouldn't make any difference to the Lady's political aspirations
"Diplomatically motivated" - "my arseum" - fascist apologist to the last
Jim Carroll
Nor does it let you off the hook for your adulation of a friend and admirer of a mass-murderer
Even if there was the slightest truth in your guestimation of my politics, it still w

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 02:23 PM

Nor does it let you off the hook for your adulation of a friend and admirer of a mass-murderer·····
.,,.
Treating a bit of your fatuities with a great deal more respect & attention than deserved, Jim ~~

kindly quote back to me anything I have ever posted that could conceivable be described or defined as 'adulation' of the person in question

and I will reward you with a nice big read apple

--- & just for once don't fall back on the cop-out of responding to a challenge to provide an example that isn't there so you can't find it and you know you can't, with some such face-saving idiocy as "life's too short" or some such oh-2-typical Carollian evasion···

Just for once?

Eh?

There's a dear fellow·····

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 02:41 PM

Look. Those of us who are left of centre are proud of our humanitarian position compared to the adulators of mammon and the nutball libertarians.

Those who persistently defend the authoritarian - indeed almost fascist - Thatcher deserve to be dubbed Thatcherites - and need to remember that most people now remember her with hate. She was an enemy of the workers and the unwaged. I see her as little if any better than Pol Pot.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 03:38 PM

No ~~ YOU look, Mr Bridge ~~ and kindly consider what on earth makes you imagine yourself entitled to address me in that peremptory tone, you fatuous lefty upstart.

Hmmm?

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 03:46 PM

You have consistently sprung to the defence of one of the most reactionary leaders Britain has had within living memory - men fighting for the right to earn a living - "the enemy within"; "there is no such thing as society", using the power given to her by the electorate to get her criminal son off the hook (after his having grassed on his mates) and maintaining a silence on her tying in Britain with a fascist dictator and mass killer (and finally describing her stance as "Diplomatically motivated") spinelessly reactionary and dishonest with it.
That'll do nicely, thank you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 04:07 PM

Another thread hi-jacked by The Usual Fuckin' Suspects. Time for it to be closed, methinks.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 05:15 PM

"Adulation" was the word you used, Mr Carroll. Not "defence". Might 'do nicely' for you because you are a spineless equivocator; but till you put your specific 'adulatory' quote where your foolish fat gob is, it won't do for me.

~M~

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 05:16 PM

Say what you like about Sir Jimmy, he's a great promoter of discussion.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 05:38 PM

Dave the Gnome asks if Savile's Glitters and Co's victims were complicit in their own abuse' by wearing the wrong clothes, gushing over celebrities, inappropriate behaviour..."

NO I DID NOT.

I pointed out that certain people on this thread supported this philosophy. If you cannot be bothered to read even parts of the thread I linked then I will make it simple. I abhor the view that the victims of any such crime can be made, even partially, a scapegoat. Yet at least 2 of the people who are being very vociferous here suggested that the victims of rape can be held responsible for the actions of their attackers. There is no need for me to name the perpetrators. The sickening proof is in the thread.

Now, Eliza, go and look at the thread and see how wrong your assertion that I hold that view is. Apologies not required.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 06:26 PM

DtG is right in what he says. It is the "hand on your ha'penny" brigade who implied what Eliza accused him of.

Myer, Myer - you defend and praise Thatcher. If you can't live with being faced with it, don't do it. And you repeatedly seek to misrepresent those left of Thatcher and the ultra-right Camermoron and his further right backbenchers as "ultra-left".

For a man who made a living (allegedly) with words you are very cavalier about accuracy.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 06:48 PM

""Savile and his ilk sum up the values of Thatcher's Britain pretty well""

A thoroughly inane statement Jim.

As has now become obvious, Savile had been conducting his nefarious activities for 21 years before Maggie Thatcher became prime minister.

In fact she became an MP a year after Savile became a Radio Luxembourg DJ.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 06:50 PM

Bollocks to Thatcher - she has nowt to do with this - far as I can see. This Saville bugger was up to no good through various administrations.

Lets agree to drop that bit.

What I'd like to say is that I don't envy anyone whose job it is to sort this lot out regarding Saville. When all that stuff came out about him abusing young disabled people - I just felt like clamping my hands over my ears, and terrorising young girls. I just wanted to stop hearing any more but its seems like its everywhere on every newscast - every newspaper is running stories. All horrible, in their detail.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 06:57 PM

""Paedophiles in Prison and online claim the children 'love it' and 'ask for it', 'it' meaning being raped. This reminds me of those who say women who are raped 'ask for it'. All teachers for example know that young pupils can get a 'crush' on them. They take great care to discourage it and to distance themselves from the child's emotional state. I'm very angry about this attitude that any paedophile can help himself to whatever arrives in front of him.""

On a point which was raised in protest when I used the word "Paedophile", (evidence, not anecdote please) does anybody know whether any, and if so how many, of Savile's victims were prepubescent?

It was pointed out fairly forcefully that I would be wrong to suggest that sex with underage girls was automatically paedophilia.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 07:27 PM

92

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 08:48 PM

Thanks to Johnny J on another forum for this one:

Jimmy Savile's March to Lochaber Games

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 11:43 PM

"Myer, Myer - you"
.,,.
If you cannot have the courtesy to use my correct title, Mr Bridge, I have nothing further to say to you. You have not been invited to address me in that familiar, arrogant, discourteous fashion, and you have no sort of warrant to do so.

You are a yobbo & a boor. I do not debate with yobboes and boors.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Bored with boors
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 12:21 AM

MtheGM, you are one of a small group of mudcat posters
who never fail to hijack and spam threads for your own petty personal squabbles.
You are all boring boors.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 12:32 AM

Perhaps rather a boorish thing for a Guest to say of his hosts? If you don't like us, don't visit us but take your boredom elsewhere, Mr/Ms Bored... I don't expect any of would repine too bitterly at your absence.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 02:14 AM

Well I'm a member and I'm sick to the back teeth of Carroll, Hertford, Bridge and the rest of the Usual Suspects Gang shitting up any thread they alight on with their sickening, childish name-calling and squabbling. For God's sake grow up, you morons, or (preferably) bugger off for ever.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 02:24 AM

perhaps we could do a cabaret spot - songs from the boor wars...

why does everybody call me bighead?
I'm a pink toothbrush, you're a homophobic bastard...no I'm not
Putting on the Ritz...?you pathetic upper class swine...!I'm not!
To be a Farmers Boy...murdering defenceless animals
The folks who live on the hill...have no right to describe that as folk music!
Camptown Racists sing this Song.   I'm not a racist,! Yes you are!

I wonder who would sing those numbers....

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 02:34 AM

As thread drift seems an occupational hazard on this subject...

Please forgive me.

Bridge. I just want to take you up on your stance of being proud to be on the left. You see, that troubles me. Shouldn't I know but it does.

It just goes to prove what you keep denying, that you are not capable of rational debate. You have a stance and judge everything by it. You should run for Archbishop of Canterbury. Christian welcome preconceived viewpoints, and they make decent cups of tea after their group indignation sessions on a Sunday.

Being proud of a fixed stance which any subject is then compared to does you no credit.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 02:51 AM

Don't waste your time trying to reason with any of them, Ian. Their heads are firmly embedded in their own recta.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 03:11 AM

"Time for it to be closed, methinks."
Not really B - the Thatcher connection was well established by those who pointed out the support that Savile gave her.
"Lets agree to drop that bit."
Agreed - you are right that we've chuntered on long enough though.
Savile was what he was, and that seems to be well on the way to being proven; he's dead an beyond punishment, but his victims are still around and need closure on what happened to them. Part of that closure has to be finding out who knew what, and why he was allowed to go on doing what he apparently did for so long unchecked.
Also, for me, it's worth looking what Savile and others were used for as part of the the dumbing down of our media. His rise to being one of the Beeb's blue eyed boys coincided with the ending of the Radio Ballads, the sacking of Charles Parker and the closure of the features department which gave us so many folk-based programmes.
Film and radio programme makers like Philip Donellan had to fight to have their films shown (his 'Gone For a Soldier' met with so much resistance that it was debated in Parliament) and many of them had to resort to showing their work privately. Eventually they disappeared from our screens and radios altogether, to be replaced by such reliable role models as Bernard Manning, Freddie Starr, Russell Brand, Jonathon Ross, Jim Davidson......
If the BBC and other bodies have deliberately covered up Savile's abuse in order to give us the pale shadow we have today, they have far more than abuse victims to answer to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 03:27 AM

JC: Savile and his ilk sum up the values of Thatcher's Britain pretty well

So are we to assume that Karl Marx sexually abusing his young house maid was an indication of *his* Thatcherite values?

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 03:38 AM

Big Al: Bollocks to Thatcher - she has nowt to do with this - far as I can see. This Saville bugger was up to no good through various administrations.

Lets agree to drop that bit.

I agree: As little love as I have for the woman myself, it seems that there are people who tend to ascribe all the ills of the world to her, as if she's some kind of unique demon from the pits of hell who single-handedly caused the human race to fall from a state of near-perfection!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 03:52 AM

I'd like to point out that I only came to the "Thatcher" debate on this thread after the apologists for her started. Ask Myer the meaning of "apologist". It's nothing to do with the current conventional meaning of "apology".

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 05:23 AM

"So are we to assume that Karl Marx sexually abusing his young house maid was an indication of *his* Thatcherite values?"
No - it was an indication of his abusing his maid - if that is what happened.
Savile turning out on Thatcher's campaign trail were an indication of his Thatcherite values - you apparently wish to continue on this theme - not me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: selby
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 05:29 AM

According to some of todays papers another disc jockey has form, with uninvited sexual advances. What was going on at the BBC at this time.The BBC is listened to all around the world through its world service to get the TRUTH. The damage done by these self serving monsters to their victims and the BBC is immeasurable.
Keith

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 06:06 AM

As Lord Denning said in Roe -v- MoH [1954] one "must not look at the 1947 accident with 1954 spectacles". The standards that might have been expected in the late 60s and early 70s are not those of today and there are two distinctions to be drawn.

First - age, or rather sexual development. It has already been pointed out above that an 8 year old is a different person from a 15 year old, and even the law recognises this - Sections 5 to 8 deal with offences against teh under 13s (12 and downward) but SSn 9-15 13 to 15 and SSn 16 to 14 the limited range that relate to 16 to 18.

Second - coercion or its absence. You can't simply draw a realistic line between invited and uninvited sexual advances, as otherwise the first invitation is always an uninvited advance.

The 60s were the years of the great sexual revolution - they did not legitimate sex with under 13s, but, to be frank, sex with under 16s was commonplace (and the law of "abuse of position of trust" did not yet exist and still does not apply to rock stars or DJs with whom groupies want sex). Equally they did not legitimate coercion or assault.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Musket
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 06:26 AM

Did you notice that?

Carroll has managed to slip in that Saville was responsible for the sacking of Charles Parker, the ending of the radio ballads and the dumbing down of folk on The BBC...

I'm well and truly fucking staggered... Mind you, let's wait and see if he can weave in Th*tcher's contribution to less folk music on The BBC.

For his information, the radio ballads were nothing to do with folk music. They were documentaries on working life. The music was no more (and no less) than a medium for expanding the image the interviews were portraying.



Careful Bridge.. Truth has no place when the nation is in a hand wringing session.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 06:26 AM

No the human race wasn't near perfection, but Thatch buggered up a lot of peoples lives.

I always thnk about carpet fitters somehow. Housing tends to be cheap in mining areas, and one compensation of a shit job is that miners used to be able to buy their families, (hey used to marry early) a very nice house, better tha most young married Londoners could dream of.

Then they needed carpet fitters and the like to make their homes look nice. After Thatch closed all the mines, broke up the families - the housing market collapsed - estate agents, solicitors, carpet fitters - they all started going broke and out of business. Twas not pretty. I appreciate most southerners didn't have a ringside seat - so they went on voting for her - by and large they were taken care of.

Sorry Jim , I still don' see the connection with Saville. John Wayne Gacy got photographed with every serving Preseident of the USA - it doesn't mean to say, they knew what was in his floorspace.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 07:44 AM

Savile turning out on Thatcher's campaign trail were an indication of his Thatcherite values -,
I think that is a perfectly reasonable comment, that does not make Thatcher a sex abuset, furthermore JIM is not saying that.
I think jim is meaning the following, that Thatcher believed in a WORLD where people looked after number one and did not care about others,the survival of those that[are strongest or] starting off with the most money, she said that there was no such thing as society.
Jimmy Saville did not care about others,although his raising money for charity, may have been a way of getting rid of his guilt concerning his taste for sexual abuse.
But BOTH OF THEM along with Blair[ he supported the invasion of Iraq], were only concerned with power and themselves, AND promoting themselves, and appeared to have little concern about treating people with respect. Thatcher was not a sexual abuser, but she[imo] had little social conscience, a trait she shared with Saville .

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Musket
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 08:12 AM

Mining wasn't a shit job Alan. I was very happy as a miner. it was a career with, in my case, professional qualifications and satisfaction of doing a job that contributed to the wealth of the nation. Not sure we all married early either. Sometimes very difficult to read how you and people around you have been stereotyped over the years.

You carpet fitter bit is spot on mind. When I left the pit, one of the other industries I sold equipment to in my new role as a rep / engineer was refractory concrete, as there were many steel industry plants around Sheffield and Rotherham, and the refractory trade supplied them........

Careful, Saville was a miner. The only time I saw him in the flesh was when he came to our pit canteen to launch a union sponsored charity....... Good soldier Schweik seems to forget something when he mentions social conscience. The reason Saville is in the public frame when he is neither the first or the last well known person to be a suspected paedophile is precisely because of his well known social conscience. Not all his fund raining efforts gave him access to children, and from accounts, not all access resulted in abuse.

Still a nasty bastard...

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 09:34 AM

"Carroll has managed to slip in that Saville was responsible for the sacking of Charles Parker....."
No - I never said anything resembling such a stupid statement - your dishonesty does you no credit (either that, or your acute dyslexia is in need of urgent treatment.
I said "Savile and others were used as part of the the dumbing down of our media."
As far as I know Savile had no say in BBC policy, but those who did were replacing a pretty high quality service with a dumbed down one dominated by people like Savile, Dawson, Starr, Davidson et al.
Don't suppose it's any use to you (unless your local night school does literacy classes for beginners) but there's an excellent book on the BBC entitled Prospero and Ariel - the rise and fall of radio, a personal recollection, by D G Bridson.
"the radio ballads were nothing to do with folk music"
The Radio Ballads had everything to do with folk music - all of them included some traditional songs as well as newly composed songs made using traditional tunes and forms - go and have a quick re-listen and see if you can spot them second time round.
"Th*tcher's contribution to less folk music on The BBC"
Why should anybody try - the rejection of folk music by the Beeb was all their own work.
It's always an indication that your points are striking home when your opponents need to resort to distortion and open dishonest instead of straightforward argument - keep up the good work!
"Sorry Jim , I still don' see the connection with Saville"
Jack Campin's photos make the connection for me Al. It remains to be seen exactly how much them upstairs knew about the reported abuse and what they were doing, if anything, to prevent it.
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/multimedia/dynamic/00296/07sav_296940k.jpg
http://static9.imagecollect.com/preview/560/d9ecf90873ebc9a
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 10:34 AM

Savile, Dawson, Starr, Davidson

Tsk, tsk Jim - How can you lump Les in with the rest of that crew? Must have been a musical genius to play like this. :-)

Saville was a case on his own as this thread shows. Compared to Starr and Davidson, Dawson was a breath of fresh air. The only pity was he did that crap Blankety Blank show but I can forgive him that.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 10:41 AM

Sorry Dave - I Realised I'd made a mistake when I sent it - of course I meant that loveable racist misogynist Bernard Manning - will go and wash my mouth out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Silas
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 10:52 AM

Oi! I knew Les Dawson very well, you cannot compare him to those other people!

Although he was famous for his MIL jokes, thats all they were - jokes.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 10:54 AM

One of the most misinterpreted out-of-context remarks ever was her "No such thing as society"; which was not, however, as well-phrased as it might have been, leaving her vulnerable to the kind of misrepresentation and obloquy which followed, as she subsequently admitted."

Does that qualify as "adulation", I wonder, Jim? Oh dear me. Still waiting patiently for some examples of posts which you think are: but I won't hold my breath. You have, as I explicitly predicted, typically avoided that question and purported to be dealing with it by answering another one which nobody asked ~~~ your usual sort of MO in such situations, as I remarked before.

BTW, you keep saying my assumptions as to your political allegiances are mere guestimate. Same goes for you (+ old Richie Pons-Asinorum) re mine, for the matter of that. You are a proper old pot·&·kettler, did you know that?

~M~

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 11:27 AM

You should, Myer, consider your analogies more carefully. Think about the functions of the Pons Asinorum a moment. Horse, drink. Duck, quack.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 12:38 PM

It's old Ponsy's own functions I am more concerned with ~~ for which Asinorum [or at least the genitive singular - Asini? ~~ forgotten most of my Lat Gram after all these years] seems a perfect label.

Can't address the rude pig directly, it will be noted. Too unmannerly a little twerp.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Silas
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 12:44 PM

Pot/Kettle - never more appropriate.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 01:40 PM

Eliza, just so that you know, and I'm sorry you've been dragged into this...

Dave put that thread on there to have a dig at me, as ever. I'm surprised no-one else mentioned it until you did, which must have been driving him more than a little nuts, for my goodness he so *wanted* to paint me, yet again, in the blackest light he can find.

If you read that thread, which has nothing to do with this thread, it was about whether women could ever be guilty of inviting rapists into their lives.

I said that I was extremely worried about how many young women dress these days, and behave, getting drunk as skunks, falling down legless, or into the back of taxis etc, even passing out completely, week in, week out..being overtly sexual to the point of the worst kind of lager lout behaviour, making lewd sexual comments to men etc...

I went on to say, as I recall, that if you behaved in a certain way, you were inviting trouble...and my goodness, but the heavens did open!

Today it is very popular to become aghast at this, for women have created a situation where they now feel that they can be as bloody irresponsible as they so choose whilst maintaining they have every right to lead a man on, to behave in the most outrageous manner without any risk of anything happening to them. They may well give out the message to a man that they are, to use a modern day expression, 'up for it', then change their mind at the last moment or cry 'rape' after, as has happened in some cases. YES, of COURSE they are at liberty, always, to change their minds, but at some point, the chances may well be that they are going to do this with a man who refuses to see it in that way and, having been taunted, played with and sexually aroused, 'loses it completely'....

And at that point Responsibility for their actions must come in, for even the most Stupid person can't truly believe that ALL women are safe from ALL men???

And yes, I know that women get raped who are dressed incredibly demurely, who do not invite any man to even look at them in a sexual manner, but I'm not talking about that kind of situation, but the one that is played out on our town and city streets every weekend these days. Down here in Torquay the churches have volunteers who go round picking the drunken women up off the streets, I kid you not, giving them blankets to keep them warm and who do their best to ensure these young women, who are completely out of it, get home safely.

This NEVER used to happen, EVER, in our towns and cities.

It will always be, ultimately, the man's fault, of course it will, BUT women need to get real, need to become far more responsible again, stop acting like hookers 'just because we can and we want to' and put some bloody intelligence and self-respect back in their heads, rather than constantly thinking it's their 'right' to tease a man as much as they want, or to get utterly plastered to the point where they can't even remember what they did, who they may have done it with, or even if they did it willingly or not.

WTF has happened to us, as a Species, that we think this is OK? It's NOT ok at all! It's shocking and it's deeply dangerous, for there will ALWAYS be predatory men out there just watching and waiting...so why the hell put yourself in such a stupid situation in the first place?

The vicious, violent and serial rapists will show no respect for any woman whatsoever and will always try to blame them, but sadly, the women who DO behave in such a way as I've mentioned above, give the rapists back-up for their sick words because some of them DO behave as if they're asking for it...

Trust me, I've travelled home on late trains before now and the behaviour from some young people takes my breath away and makes me shudder, for if *I* can see the Danger, WHY CAN'T THEY?

Women have totally lost the plot in my opinion, and are seen by many men these days as nothing more than something to have a quick shag with, not even a someone, just a something. I feel that many young women actually hate behaving/dressing this way, but get forced into it by a society that has become overtly sexual, to the point of almost 'bullying' women into behaving this way.

I spoke to someone a while back on the internet who commented on a blog I did called 'Bums, Boobs and Brains' and she said that she too was worried sick about what was going on, and, on going out with some friends, many of whom were dressed more for a porno movie than a night out, she asked them why they dressed and behaved this way, knocking back the drinks etc..Many of those women then admitted that actually, they didn't feel very happy about what they were doing...

It starts very early on in life with our young girls being surrounded by sex everywhere, from magazines, TV, CD lyrics, Pop Stars dressed in a way no decent hooker would even dream of, Soaps, which often have the most appalling storylines in...and of course, toys, such as The Bratz Dolls, which have been toned down a little recently, but were one a Paedophile's Dream, for the Bratz Dolls taught little girls very early on that they were on the planet merely to puff out their chests, wiggle their bums, pout their lips and dress in the most common, sexually 'inviting' and dangerous way possible to attract the Bratz Boys, who, of course, thought all the Bratz Girls were hot stuff....

Paedophiles R Us at work......

Dave will stop at nothing to try to lower me in the eyes of many, and I've no doubt he'll try to spin the words I've put here to say I 'support' rapists. I do NOT, in ANY WAY, never have, never will. But I DO support women being taught/given back self-respect and responsibility again and for them to realize that first and foremost they are a human being, with a mind and a soul, as well as a body...and that they are NOT there purely for men to salivate over, or use for a quick shag on a Saturday evening round the back of the club...

Never EVER knowingly put yourself in a dangerous situation through your own actions, without being able to accept that YOU were the one who decided to take those actions, which may, or may not, have gone on to lead to some terrible things happening.

And now, back to Savile the Sociopath..and for those who keep asking "HOW could this have happened???" PLEASE look up what Sociopaths do, for he fits the bill 100%, for so very often they are intelligent, gifted, charming, manipulative, ruthless, scary, highly sexed with no feeling whatsoever towards their victims, intimidating, with no sense of emotion, nor remorse for whatever they may do. All of these things enabled Jimmy Savile to do what he did, to those he did it to, for probably most of his life.

There is no excuse for those who knew, but kept silent.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 02:33 PM

You were not the only one supporting that view, Liz. So don't think it is to have dig at you. It isn't. It is just to point out that some people believe that those who put themselves at risk , such as these young people did, must be in some way culpable. There are umpteen examples of people spouting the same rubbish but you said it quite sucinctly just above.

I went on to say, as I recall, that if you behaved in a certain way, you were inviting trouble.

or

BUT women need to get real, need to become far more responsible again, stop acting like hookers

Sum up your views quite nicely. Need I say any more?

As to trying to lower you in the eyes of many - I have absolutley no need to do so. People have already made up their minds and nothing any of us say or do will alter their opinions of either of us. I do think you need to get over the fact that not everyting is about you though. There are a number of people with the same wretched view.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 02:38 PM

Oh, sorry, and if anyone doubts the veracity of what I say, please don't take mine or Liz's word here. Read the thread. Bit of a marathon but a real eye opener for anyone who thought Victorian Values were a thing of the past.

D.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 03:49 PM

I think Lizzie might have a point - if the same set of rules applied to men.
I can think of dozens of derogatory words that are used to describe women who 'put it about' - wonder why I can only think of terms of admiration that describe the the same behaviour in men?
The logical conclusion to Lizzie's argument is that men will continue to dictate what women wear and how the behave.
Modern society continues to present women as 'available' and while that remains the case women will continue to be the target of male predators   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 04:56 PM

Exploitation, one of the fundamentals of capitalism.
there is a similarity, once you stop respecting peoplPeople no longer get treated with respect they can become a way to be exploited to make money, or an object to exploit for sexual gratification

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 05:30 PM

You know, it is the way of the cyber-bully to use only a certain part of what someone has said in order to paint them in the dark colours they so love to try and paint their prey in.

Here is the full version of what I said, Dave, and please note the very first part of the paragraph which, of course, you chose, as ever, to leave out

>>>"It will always be, ultimately, the man's fault, of course it will, BUT women need to get real, need to become far more responsible again, stop acting like hookers 'just because we can and we want to' and put some bloody intelligence and self-respect back in their heads, rather than constantly thinking it's their 'right' to tease a man as much as they want, or to get utterly plastered to the point where they can't even remember what they did, who they may have done it with, or even if they did it willingly or not."<<<


And don't call me Liz, for there is only one person on here who I am happy to call me by that name, which was the name my Dad always called me by. Therefore, only a person for whom I have the highest respect and/or love has 'my' permission to call me by that name.

You most certainly have neither my respect, nor my love.

You also know that it upsets me when others refer to me in this manner, which is, of course, why you do it.

Go and write in the Cyber-Bully thread, for you may feel more at home there, although Savile was a nasty piece of work...so.......

Thank you

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 05:39 PM

(not sure what happened to the post above, so here it is again)

You know, it is the way of the cyber-bully to use only a certain part of what someone has said in order to paint them in the dark colours they so love to try and paint their prey in.

Here is the full version of what I said, Dave, and please note the very first part of the paragraph which, of course, you chose, as ever, to leave out:

>>>"It will always be, ultimately, the man's fault, of course it will, BUT women need to get real, need to become far more responsible again, stop acting like hookers 'just because we can and we want to' and put some bloody intelligence and self-respect back in their heads, rather than constantly thinking it's their 'right' to tease a man as much as they want, or to get utterly plastered to the point where they can't even remember what they did, who they may have done it with, or even if they did it willingly or not."<<<

And don't call me Liz, for there is only one person on here who I am happy to call me by that name, which was the name my Dad always called me by. Therefore, only a person for whom I have the highest respect and/or love has 'my' permission to call me by that name.

You most certainly have neither my respect, nor my love.

You also know that it upsets me when others refer to me in this manner, which is, of course, why you do it.

Go and write in the Cyber-Bully thread, for you may feel more at home there, although Savile was a nasty piece of work...so.......

Thank you

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 07:30 PM

Liz,

You also know that it upsets me when others refer to me in this manner, which is, of course, why you do it.

Of course I do. Isn't your whole point? If people give an excuse to abuse you, then it is your own fault?

As I said before,I will leave it to people to read the thread and decide for themselves for themselves what your views are. I have no need to enhance or embellish it.

And I want neither your respect or love. I reserve that for people that matter to me.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 07:43 PM

BTW - Your 'permission' to call you anything at all is completely irrelevant considering that I know your name is neither Lizzie or Cornish. But I will, for now, respect your anonymity.

:D

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 11:20 PM

FWIW, I am with Lizzie on this one, as anyone who read that other thrwead will know.

~M~

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 04:36 AM

It is very difficult to look back on this without colouring it with modern attitudes. Things were very different in the late 60s and 70s. It was post-Pill and pre-AIDS, and amongst the younger generation sex was thought of as a good thing. Pop stars and DJs, most of whom were little more than kids themselves, had girls throwing themselves at them - although many of these probably didn't fully understand the implications and just wanted to get close to their heroes.

Savile was older than most, and it seems took advantage of this youth culture. However I suspect that many who knew about his activities may have thought his behaviour a bit near the knuckle but probably didn't regard it as wicked, the way we would now. "Child abuse", "sexual harassment" and "paedophile" weren't part of the vocabulary. "Rape" was being dragged into the bushes by a stranger, and I doubt whether many would regard coerced, as opposed to forced, sex as rape. On the other hand, attitudes towards women generally were fairly primitive. Feminism was still a minority shouting from the sidelines and wasn't being taken very seriously.

Unfortunately, these things just weren't taken as seriously at the time as they are now. My guess is that it wasn't that people were turning a blind eye but that they simply didn't regard it as a serious matter, and assumed that the girls knew what they were getting into.

Whether it was just the attitudes of the times or whether it was taken seriously but covered up, either way the BBC will now be judged by modern attitudes and is in for a pasting.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 05:05 AM

>>>>Liz,

You also know that it upsets me when others refer to me in this manner, which is, of course, why you do it.

Of course I do. Isn't your whole point? If people give an excuse to abuse you, then it is your own fault?

As I said before,I will leave it to people to read the thread and decide for themselves for themselves what your views are. I have no need to enhance or embellish it.<<<



Go and STALK someone else! I'm sure I'm not the only one on your 'list'.

That's the polite version.

The other version is:

Fuck OFF!

Thank you.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 05:19 AM

You are not right about the 60s & 70s, according to my recollections, Howard. I don't know your age: but they are nothing but an eye-blink ago to me. Such offences were not taken any more lightly or matter-of-factly by the law then than they are now. There was the fuss about the visiting rock-singer with the 14-yr-old wife, for instance. Why do you think Savile took so much care to cover his tracks that the truth is only just coming to light, if, as you say, attitudes were so laid-back that no-one would have cared had they known? And how long do you think this permissive attitude lasted? ~ didn't help G Glitter in 1990s, did it?

~M~

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 05:24 AM

No stalking.

No list.

I just don't suffer fools gladly.

DtG

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 06:06 AM

Michael, the law took these offences seriously, but I don't think society, or at least the younger generation, did. Groupies were regarded as part of the scene, and a perk of being what we now call a celebrity. I suspect that many of those around Savile may have been a bit uncomfortable at the young age of some of the girls but wouldn't have regarded it in the same light as we do today. Especially as crowds of girls were throwing themselves at the celebrities, although as I said before in most cases probably without a full understanding of the possible consequences.

Of course, the question is how many older and wiser heads at the BBC were aware, and whether it was a matter of a blind eye being turned or the matter just not being taken seriously. The other question is why didn't it come to light as the pendulum of public opinion swung the other way? Savile seems to have been careful to cover his tracks and whilst there were rumours and allegations there seems to have been little hard evidence - unlike Gary Glitter, who got careless.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Puzzled of Barnsley
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 07:27 AM

If crowds of girls were throwing themselves at celebs (and I don't deny it by the way) why did Jim not choose them all the time instead of some whom (as we now learn) were uncomfortable with it.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Puzzled of Barnsley
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 07:30 AM

Seems to me that if Ms. Cornish's real name is not Elizabeth there is no reason for her father to call her Liz.

Unless that is her name. In which case why is she objecting to people calling her by her real name?

Strange.........

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 07:57 AM

Because this evil man got his kicks from doing what he did to those who were either incapable of putting up a fight, or even telling anyone about it, or those he knew he was scaring half to death...

Which part of the paedophile/sociopathic personality don't you understand? He didn't WANT an ordinary relationship, not even one where there was no emotional connection to 'willing' girls, he wanted to be the one to hold the Power, the Fear, the Control...the SECRET.

It was the very fact that his victims were unwilling or immensely vulnerable that he got his orgasms from...

Evil Personnified.....

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 07:57 AM

Jones is ABSOLUTELY right - "Groupies were regarded as part of the scene, and a perk of being what we now call a celebrity". The cutoff point for age was puberty (plus a little bit) - the "if it's red then it's ripe" view.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 07:59 AM

>>>No stalking.

No list.

I just don't suffer fools gladly.

DtG <<<<



Then remove EVERY mirror from your house.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 08:17 AM

On this week's Have I Got News, Hislop and Merton discussed Savile and the transcript posted earlier.
They were very clear it was a hoax.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 08:22 AM

He was single all his life, which suggests that he may not have been able to form or sustain adult sexual relationships. Whether as Lizzie suggests he didn't want them, I don't know - I suspect he may have done, but found the use of power and control more effective than having to deal with a woman on an equal footing.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 08:34 AM

I hope I didn't offend you - I might have called you Liz, Lizzie, something like that.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 08:34 AM

"If crowds of girls were throwing themselves at celebs (and I don't deny it by the way) why did Jim not choose them all the time instead of some whom (as we now learn) were uncomfortable with it."

Because the guy was a pervert. What part of 'pervert' don't you understand?

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 08:46 AM

Yes, he WAS single all his life.

Again, let's look at the Sociopathic mind, shall we, the kind of mind that cannot bear intimate relationships, for 'love' is NOT on their radar, it is not there at all in their brains, never has been, never will be. It is simply a case of 'no lights being on in that room of their brain'...

He got *exactly* what he wanted, which was sex and sexual gratification from what he did in his Secret World.

He would also have got a very peverse sense of satisfaction that 'the world', for the most part, was totally unaware of his secrets, which made them all the more orgasmic...

Al, Lizzie is just fine and does not offend me in any way.

Richard, I was a teenager in the late 60s and early 70s and I never threw myself at anyone, nor allowed anyone to throw themselves at me. Those who tried a quick grope on the dancefloor, usually total strangers whom I had not met until that dance, found themselves dancing totally alone within seconds of what they had done...

Do not think that all young women were 'desperate for it' or 'at it like dogs', because we weren't, most of my friends included. Times were FAR more innocent back then to how they are now....and I went to the toughest school in the neighbourhood, not some protected private girls school.

There will ALWAYS be people who worship at the Altar of Celebrity, feeling themselves 'touched' by that 'sense of celebrity' through the actions of those whom they profess to adore...

There are others, particularly back then, when life was a lot more innocent, who would have felt overwhelmed with disbelief at what this man did to them, being unable to tell him to feck off, as most women would these days, or take him to court etc..

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Puzzled of Barnsley
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 10:31 AM

"Because the guy was a pervert. What part of 'pervert' don't you understand?"

OK you may be right. One of my questions solved.

The other question was about Ms. Cornish. She has so far not explained why her father called her Liz when apparently it isn't her name.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Puzzled of Barnsley
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 10:35 AM

"Al, Lizzie is just fine and does not offend me in any way."

Why should it offend you? Apparently it isn't your name!!!!

But I would love to know why Liz (which isn't your name) offends you - and Lizzie (which isn't your name either) doesn't offend you.

Puzzled.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 10:48 AM

Then remove EVERY mirror from your house.

Very good, Liz :-) Keep it up for a while and I may even revert to MY schooldays!

DtG

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 11:02 AM

Because, Lizzie is my name, as Puzzled, is yours.

My father was free to call me any name he so choose. I call both my children by names other than their full Christian names. It is called a form of endearment, names we use for those we love best...

However, as you're puzzled about the reasons as to why Savile did what he did, I expect you'll remain puzzled about this too....

Probably best to start a separate thread about it. I only accept being called 'Liz' by a very few people in my life, all of whomm I love and respect.

Case Ended.
Verdit: Innocent.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 11:04 AM

GUEST,Puzzled of Barnsley

whoever you really are
you're being a bit of a wanker.

And now back to the discussion...

Back in the 70s & early 80s,
let's not forget the huge commercial popularity
of photographer David Hamilton's books and movies.
and the books of Anaïs Nin..

Without question, there was an acceptable popular culture
celebrating & exploiting under-aged sexuality.

These books and movies were openly available
in high street book retailers and cinemas.

My mum was even sent the Anaïs Nin books as some kind of free promotional offer
from a mainstream mail order book club...????

oh, but that's "Art".....

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 11:05 AM

Why does it bother you so much Puzzled of Barnsley, this thread is about a predatory serial rapist paediphile called Jimmy Savile, not Lizzie Cornish, what did you not understand about that ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 11:34 AM

Yeah, who really cares why the poster LizzieCornish dislikes "Liz", it's all got nothing to do with the discussion on this thread. She can disappear for months but within ten minutes of LizzieCornish posting anything on this site, up pop members of the LizzieCornish fan club!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 11:54 AM

We now have an allegation of his abuse of a nine year-old little Cub Scout who was subjected to disgusting acts by Savile. He was apparently told not to tell, because no-one would believe his word against the 'star's.' The man was without any shadow of doubt a paedophile. That ghastly chap Richard Littlejohn in the Daily Mail seems to feel that as the monster is dead, there's no need to pursue these allegations. I do hope the organisations who 'knew and did nothing' will however be investigated and brought to book. Times have changed, I agree, but is/was it EVER totally OK to take advantage of very young teenagers? Those who are telling of their experiences did not offer sex, they merely wanted to meet the fellow and be on TV. To be attacked like that was a terrible and traumatising shock to each one of them.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 12:16 PM

perhaps I need to clarify my comment..

The 70's cultural climate of permissiveness
and 'flexible' attitude to media representations of desirable 'jailbait'
was a convenient smokescreen for extreme deviant perverts
like Saville
to continue to perpetrate their crimes off the radar,
relatively unseen by 'normal decent' society...

Plus a general ingrained attitude amongst all strata of society
to avoid 'getting the police involved'...???

In my part of the West country it was not that uncommon
for girls of approx 14 to get swept of their feet,
and with their parents permission,
get 'engaged'
to guys in their 20's with jobs, smart clothes, and cars...

Unsurprisingly, that's near enough the part of the country
Gary Glitter moved to.........

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 12:24 PM

Oh for goodness sake! Girls did NOT get married at 14 back in the 70s. Not legally at least...and Gary Glitter used to live not far from my brother, in the Mendips in Somerset, where I can assure you there was not a Church in the County churning out 14 year old brides! YEESH!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 12:40 PM

Ms Cornish, you are wrong.
I wrote 'engaged' not married, work out the subtle implications.
I also write from personal knowledge and observation
of growing up in a council estate
in such an area.

In the early 80s Glitters house parties were openly gossiped about
and laughed off as if he were merely a local 'dirty old man';
or more accurately
the lascivious wealthy Village Squire..
The accepted pub attitude seemed to be
"good luck to him, the randy old bugger"

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 12:45 PM

"the law took these offences seriously....."
Depends who you mean by 'the law' Howard.
Last Friday's Times disclosed that the reason for the apparent disinterest (to the extent of boredom) by the authorities in the Lancashire and Yorkshire procuring of underage girls for sex was that even though it was technically against the law, they decided not to act on it because they decided it was "consensual" and therefore not worth acting upon (which should put paid once and for all to any idea that the culture or nationality of the perpetrators had anything to do with their decision).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 12:45 PM

Lizzie ~~ He said "engaged" {with the quotes}, not married. In general as you know I feel your points are good even if your expression of them sometimes tends to the verbose ~~ that's your style, to which you are quite entitled. But misreading, misquoting the previous poster, and then aTTACKING HIM FOR WHAT HE DIDN'T SAY IS UNCHARACTERISTICALLY CARELESS OF YOU, AND LAYS YOU OPEN TO THE IRRITATING* Lizzie-baiting which some seem to take so strange a pleasure in.

Best wishes as ever

~Michael~

*Sorry, just a Caps Lock error

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 02:26 PM

The BBC have just announced the names of the people who will probably be paid a fortune to prop up their champagne and caviar lifestyles from licence payers' monies.

They must be secretly thanking Saville to help line their slimy pockets.

Or will the highest paid execs and actors etc. pay it out of their own pockets because I don't remember personally covering up Saville's behaviour, so no way should I be indirectly 'fined'.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 02:27 PM

Michael, you should follow my posts more closely, for you'd see that I sometimes make such mistakes...I always apologize for them, whilst never commenting on anyone's writing style. Thank you.

punkfolkrocker, you did say 'engaged' and I therefore apologize for my mistaken post above.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 02:34 PM

I'm a book critic, Lizzie; so I can't help remarking people's styles. It's my job.

Sorry indeed though if you were offended.

☺〠☺~M~☺〠☺

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 02:43 PM

Not offended, Michael, merely pissed off. I write as I write, as is natural to me and I'll never write any other way, no matter how much it drives people up the wall...Fought long and hard to do so..

Sorry...I get a bit grumpy about it as I've had years of The Moaning Minnies going on and on and on to the point of Insanity about it..

xx

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: selby
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 04:55 PM

i agree with the statement made about girls of 14 getting engaged I certainly know of girls who did this and married at 16 (1967) .Unfortunately today I know of girls who at 16 have babies by different partners and believe they are living a good life
very sad.
Keith

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 05:36 PM

But presumably those girls getting 'engaged' (which I deplore) isn't the same thing as undergoing unwanted and disgusting abuse by an unsavoury and perverted satyr? Isn't there a vast difference?

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: selby
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 06:07 PM

Very true Eliza in an earlier post someone said that they had knowledge of engagements i was only agreeing . But it lead me to the fact around where i live girls do get pregnant to get a house and life off benefits thread drift I know a social comment possibly.
Keith

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 06:55 PM

This thread is about Jimmy Savile. I wonder if the med elf removed every post that is not specifically about Jimmy Savile, how many posts would be left. Once again, the political hatred of mudcatters has dug it's teeth into this thread and shows what Mudcat is so bad at.

I am not condoning anything that he did and am very upset at the level that he stooped to. He was somebody i looked up to, but as time has shown, that was a miatake on my part.

Please Ladies and Gentlemen, can you please stick to the Subject and stop bringing in your political hatred, that has nothing to do with this thread.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 07:12 PM

My mention of under-age engagements in 70s West country
was simply meant to emphasise the point
that in a cultural & social climate
where some parents so readily consented to a 14 year old daughter
becoming engaged to an older man with good 'prospects';

- tacitly agreeing to what might go on in the back of his car
[or even downstairs on the sofa, or in her bedroom]

"well it's sort of ok, as long as they're careful, they will be getting married..." -

while family and neighbours are accepting it as nothing really out of the ordinary.

Then it's so much easier for devious predators like Saville and Glitter
to take advantage of vulnerable young 'willing' teen victims
if all around are habitually turning a blind eye to their rich celebrity lifestyle 'peccadilloes'..


Btw, I will hazard a guess that Glitter probably avoided too much negative attention in Wedmore
by refraining from targeting girls from nearby middle class village families,
when he could so easily trawl the seaside resorts
and 'less salubrious' lower status communities only a few miles drive away....???

But that's just pure speculation based on nothing but vague memories of local hearsay back in the early 80's...

Though I do recall hearing about girls, one local 15 year old who I knew by name,
boasting about being taken out glamorous partying with Gary Glitter.

But that was some years before news media revealed the full extent of his sordid crimes.

Social attitudes are more black and white nowadays,
which regarding the safety of minors
can surely only be for the better.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 03:11 AM

they decided not to act on it because they decided it was "consensual" and therefore not worth acting upon (which should put paid once and for all to any idea that the culture or nationality of the perpetrators had anything to do with their decision).

They may say that and it may be true, but the jury is still out.
As the victims were legally unable to give consent, I do not believe it.
"Cultural sensitivities" still an issue?

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 03:25 AM

I still don't believe that 14 year olds becoming engaged was *that* common. I was a young person during the time of Gary Glitter and I didn't know any young person who was engaged at 14, or 15, or even 16.

And as for social attitudes being safer for young people now I completely disagree, as these days it IS considered 'normal' for 14 year olds to be having sex, which it wasn't back then.

The constant cry of 'It's what youngsters do' is heard these days, and it sickens me, for so many of those young people are merely having sex because their peers are. They don't want to, they don't feel loved or cared for, because it's now become a bodily function and little else. They're taught goodness knows what by schools, often with teachers feeling *very* uncomfortable at what they're being told to teach, yet still those teachers teach it, rather than stand up and say "You know, this is peverted!"

If I went up to a young person and started telling them what teachers tell them in school sex lessons, I'd probably be arrested, but heyho, such is the crazy way the world has now become...

Sadly, the sex industry is creating 'fodder' for the paedophiles, for young girls now see nothing wrong (even if they don't like it) in having sex at an earlier and earlier age, whilst society looks on and remains silent or totally apathetic.

We have spent way too long protecting paedophiles whilst NOT protecting the children and young people from them.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 03:53 AM

'that common' is how common. sadly amogst certain strata of society its always been pretty common. I doubt if a teacher in a posh grammar school would encounter it more than once or twice a year, but in the sec mods, it was pretty much a fact of our childrens lives.

As far as childrens behaviour and sexuality is concerned - I think the media are actually holding the line as much as possible.

My middle class friends used to ask me when Grange Hill started on TV - do modern children REALLY behave like that? And teachers smiled grimly knowing that Grange Hill was a highly edited version of reality.

As ben Elton, at the time commented, the only playground in England where the kids don't say Fuck. And that was thirty years ago.

get a grip Lizzie...!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Musket
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 05:22 AM

I am indebted to the clairvoyants on this thread who know the mind of Saville. Also, having been married twice, I am glad I am not single, as that seems to be a preposition for being a paedophile according to some...

The Saville affair should not, in my opinion, be a catalyst to ensuring the appropriate authorities do what they should be doing, as that would mean no more than a rejigging of priorities rather than facing the real issue.

If you read the reports of safeguarding boards, and as a regulator in the field I am somewhat familiar with their work, protecting children and vulnerable adults in a meaningful way takes money. Big money. Money that is not there. Money that police, NHS, social services, private sector providers Uncle Tom Cobbley and all simply do not have.

Hand wringing is all well and good, but the situation needs addressing for the future, not just to sell newspapers today. Kneejerk outrage does not protect a single person. Rather, as in the case of The News of the World when they started a crusade, you end up with paediatricians being beat up in the street.

This is too important for media and "disgusted of Suburbia" to set the agenda. Any money coming forward needs targeting where it is needed, not finding quick results based on improvements already there. it is far harder for a Saville now than when he was in his "prime" and I am concerned that to get votes at the next election, claiming credit for what is already in place whilst spending money at it to show you have done something.... All too familiar, and all on the basis that irrational reactionary idiots are the only people who vote.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 05:33 AM

I think this thread has now taken a very interesting turn, and has provoked much thought in my (rather old) head. We seem to be considering the different mindsets of young girls and young teens regarding having sex, from the sixties/seventies compared to the present day.
There does seem to be one constant, which is adulation of 'stars' and desire for contact with 'celebrities' and the media. There appears to be a tendency for lassies to follow wealthy and famous men around (eg footballers, singers etc) and to be prepared to have sex with them in an effort to participate in their hedonistic lives.
There are two points (IMO) to consider. One is, how do we feel about legally underage yet physically mature young girls doing this, albeit voluntarily? And is it actually abuse on the part of the (usually older) men who enthusiastically take up their offers? The married teacher for example who took his young pupil to France was pursued relentlessly and arrested for it. Yet quite young girls drink and have sex all over the place (in local parks for instance) and no-one appears to do anything about it. What constitutes abuse?

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 05:54 AM

Al, I went to the toughest school in the neighbourhood, and not a single person from my entire school year was engaged at 14 or 15...I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it was not common back then, in my opinion.

I feel very angry about it, Eliza, for our children these days are being groomed, without the shadow of a doubt, by some very dodgy people in the media, the music and sex industry...and most worringly, the Toy and Fashion industry...

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 06:11 AM

That, Eliza, is a very pertinent question - but only in part to Savile.

Some of Savile's victims were unwilling, some (possibly not many of the present complainants) willing or even enthusiastic.

Some were young but physically mature - others prepubertal.

Some were women or girls, at least one a boy.

The broad brush is not wholly appropriate. And the "hand on your ha'penny" brigade have no idea about youthful sexuality.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 06:15 AM

I agree with you Lizzie. Even though girls nowadays mature physically at a much younger age, that does not (IMO) automatically mean that they should start having sex. It IS only sex, as they are far too young to form lasting relationships with men when they're in their early teens. There is, as you say, a plethora of profitable industries based around early sexualising of girls. Their childhood is so brief, if you blink you miss it. My neighbour's little girl is nine, but she is allowed make-up, nail varnish and sexy clothes. It almost seems as if we're creating a Paedophiles' Paradise. I know people groan when oldies like me start up, "When I was young..." BUT, when I was young, we girls had absolutely no thought in our heads about sex, men, alcohol etc right up until the age of seventeen or eighteen. We wore children's clothes and did tons of sport and hobbies, Girl Guides, Church activities etc. We were never bored and we enjoyed a long and happy childhood. It's a very old-fashioned word, but we were PURE.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 09:21 AM

Eliza and Lizzie, I think you're painting in very broad brush stokes here and I do feel that that can give a dangerous impression of what's happening amongst our young people. Just to put things in perspective, the rate of teenage pregnancies has been falling sharply, with 2010 being the lowest year since 1969. Children certainly have minds of their own when it comes to what they want to wear but it doesn't mean they are all being sexualised. I have a daughter who is 13 in a few days and her style is very much tomboy (she had to be positively bullied into wearing a bra).

Nor, Eliza, do I recognise your description of what teenage girls were like in the 60s (and I lived in the wilds of Yorkshire).

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 10:00 AM

Eliza,

Yes, there is a certain pressure for children to dress "sexily" at inappropriate ages, but from my own experience, that's largely down to parents colluding with the idea of peer pressure. People who bring their kids up not to "follow the herd" usually have significantly fewer problems.

However,as the Leveller, I find your description of what young girls were like in the 60s unrecogniseable. My first proper girlfriend was *just* 16 when we met, and hadn't been sexually active beyond a bit of snogging and fumbling before that, but both of her 2 best friends had lost their virginity at 15. All 3 were at an academically selective ("Grammar" in the UK sense) school. Several of the girls in my class at a (different but equally highly regarded) Grammar school had lost their virginity at 15. We even lost one from the "L" (for Latin, hence the most academic stream) Form at 14 when she became pregnant. Things were much less restrained at the Secondary Modern down the road!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 10:48 AM

I did one of my teaching practices in a remote Lincolnshire village in 1968.

The thing at the the time was heuristic learning, the children taught themselves by looking at their own environmant. S o the thing to do in an old school was to throw open the school logbook.

I suggested this to the the elderly headmaster, and he explained in as kindly a manner as possible that would not be possible. most of the children I would be teaching had families who had been run in and reprimanded for incest, under age sex, gawd knows what.

Later that year the kindly old Headmaster was fired for inappropriate sexualised behaviour with the children.

I'm not saying your wrong. But maybe - people just weren't on the lookout for it, Lizzie. that stuffwas certainly going on.

Yousee some kids were reckoned to be working men by they were fifteen. the past is a different country. My Mum was working in an office and iot was full of fifyeen year old girls. this was in the days before computers. letters and envelopes were typed.

I was in the posh grammar school, yet one of my classmates in thethird year had to leave to get a job, and support his child got with one of the girls in my Mum's office.

well it was all going on in Lincolnshire - I guess you just missed out.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,your willie
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 11:29 AM

L.C.    I see that under pressure you allow the mask to slip. In your post 5.05 12.10 you freely use the "f" word. When I used it in a direct quote in an earlier part of this thread you came over all holier than thou and were followed in your criticism by a number of sycophantic numpties.
Where now is your much vaunted balanced judgment?.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 12:50 PM

My neighbour's little girl is nine, but she is allowed make-up, nail varnish and sexy clothes. It almost seems as if we're creating a Paedophiles' Paradise.

A paedophile's paradise is just as likely to be filled with children wearing age-appropriate children's clothes. If you're attracted to children, chances are you'll want them to look like children. There are some illuminating comments in Tony Parker's book "The Twisting Lane" (interviews with imprisoned sex offenders) about what the interviewees fancied.

I find pre-teens wearing nail polish much less disturbing than adult porn models shaving their pubic hair.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 12:52 PM

I can't imagine why some of you feel I'm not telling the truth about us girls in the early sixties. I don't presume to relate what other people in other parts of the country were up to, but I can assure you (though you tend to doubt my word) that my friends and I led lives just as I describe. This was in Middlesex, we were not particularly well-off, just ordinary families. I went to a grammar school, and there truly was none, absolutely none of the sexualisation going on described in other posts. Our parents weren't repressive or overly religious. We really did spend our leisure time at various sports, horse-riding, swimming, ice-skating etc and were all involved with the local C of E church. We were also in the Guides, and I helped with a Brownie pack and a Sunday school. My evenings were taken up with tons of homework and study. We didn't wear make-up or even nylons, just short socks. When we left the area to go to college or University, we were without a doubt still virgins. I had never even been out with a boy, and certainly not kissed anyone. I was nineteen when a lad first kissed me (nothing more!) at Edinburgh Uni. But we were happy and enjoyed our long and innocent childhoods. I can see that it was different for some of you in your own areas, but this is how it was for my friends and I.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 12:59 PM

"make-up, nail varnish and sexy clothes" exactly what I remember a friend of ours complaining of a neighbour's 9-yr-old daughter being allowed to wear to pre-teen discos provided in the children's annexe of a local pub/hotel in Ruddington, near Nottingham,, must be all of 35-40 years ago now. Nothing new, whatever anyone may claim.

~M~

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 01:44 PM

I do hope during the BBC inquiry they address their attitude to females. They turned a blind eye to abuse for a number of years.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 02:05 PM

About 20 years ago I was not happy about the dancing the 11 year old girls who went to the local dance school did in assembly. Not exactly Pan's People, but should they have been doing the sort of thing that pops up on Strictly? Not that they knew what they were doing, of course. They were having fun.

Penny

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 04:36 PM

Eliza - I doubt your history. Give dates. I lived in Middlesex from 1948 to 1953 and from 1956 to about 1968. Quite a high-priced street and mostly high priced schools involved - although the father of one of my mates just up the road was a dustman and the father of one immediately opposite a very street wheeler-dealer. At the bottom of the road lived the estranged wife of the founder of a nationally known transport company, and in the next street over the family of an England soccer manager. From 1961 (when I was 13) sex was the main point of interest. I was not as successful as some of my friends but I could give names (mostly of their conquests, not mine) - although I won't. I have no idea where your little house on the prairie version of reality comes from.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 04:09 AM

"This was in Middlesex"

Ah, that explains it - plenty to keep you occupied. When a colleague of mine who came from the same area as I do told me he had a daughter who was onyt 15 years younger than him, he explained that there was not much else to do in those days.

"I find pre-teens wearing nail polish much less disturbing than adult porn models shaving their pubic hair."

Well don't look!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 04:29 AM

And, what about all those nudes in classical paintings?
Not a pube in sight.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 04:49 AM

Richard, you 'doubt my history'?? I find that very strange indeed. I lived in a perfectly ordinary town, and my father worked for the GPO, not very well-paid. My mother didn't work (very few did then). My Grammar School was not an old traditional one, but modern and new. The pupils were like myself, mainly working class and many from council estates. My parents were buying our house, a tiny semi in the suburbs of a small town. We had no TV, no phone, no car, no washing machine, and very little furniture. Our life was extremely simple and pleasant. It certainly wasn't 'Little House on the Prairie' and I haven't said it was. Sex most definitely was NOT 'the main point of interest' as you describe; maybe for boys, I wouldn't know as we didn't associate with them particularly, but NOT for us girls. Why must it be unbelievable that a set of girls such as us should have no interest or involvement in sex or sexiness? I'm very surprised and not at all pleased that someone should doubt my veracity. I can't for the life of me see why you would think I would make something up!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 05:22 AM

I believe you Eliza, although I had several girl-friends from the age of 15 or so, sex was definitely "off the menu" (apart from a bit of occasional fumbling, what used to be quaintly described as 'light petting'), and I only knew of one girl who got pregnant while still at school (one of my mates was responsible for the impregnation). It was the scandal of both schools, she was suspended and home-tutored until after the baby was born, and it was shipped off for adoption straight away.

And likewise, the idea promoted by the gutter press that every teenager in Britain is shagging like a rabbit nowadays is simply not true. In a dozen or so years working in the Youth Service In the '80s and '90s i was involved in many discussions with groups of young people, and individuals, on various sex-related issues, and the subject that cropped up constantly was how to avoid boys' sexual advances and would a girl think badly of a boy if he didn't try for a bonk. There are still a lot of young people around for whom 'keeping your hand on your ha'penny' (as someone here sneeringly put it) is important.

And, BTW, despite what some on this thread appear to believe, the prime abusers of young girls aren't overpaid celebrities, footballers et al - they are family members. I knew several girls who were raped by their fathers or other relatives, but none who were raped by a celebrity or a footballer.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 05:51 AM

Richard, I grew up in fecking Middlesex. For GAWD SAKE, stop it!

OK, so you were a randy 13 year old, but trust me on this one, I know many, MANY who weren't...and Eliza is absolutely correct, in that sex was far from our minds back then, for we were way too busy still being children.

Your hormones kicked in early, but that doesn't mean everyone's did...Most importantly of all though we weren't surrounded by images of sex everywhere, nor an internet filled with porn at the touch of a button, nor saturated with sex on TV in the most blatant and often brutal manner...

What many young girls DID dream of was LOVE! Yes, I know, something that drives you nuts, but we did have discussions about weddings and love and boys and love and music and love and films and love.....

We cried our eyes out over Love Story, then went home and dreamt of more Love....

We didn't dream of the Kama Sutra, nor stare at our teachers in an odd way because they'd spoken to us about Oral Sex, as they DIDN'T do this!

We had half an hour of sex education, boys with a male teacher, girls with a female teacher, and my teacher looked soooo uncomfortable. She talked about Love and the ultimate expression of love, sharing your bodies....We didn't stick condoms on bananas, nor talk about anal intercourse, nor any of the other somewhat dodgy things teachers are made to discuss with their pupils these days....

We have done SUCH damage...and those with no emotions, who focus and identify ONLY with sex, and NOT with Love, are to blame. There are many out there who cannot stand emotions, nor emotional people, so they have reduced the Glorious Feeling of Love to a mere bodily function which can be 'fed' with anyone at anytime, anywhere......

BRING BACK LOVE!!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 05:56 AM

What is it about Middlesex?, where I grew up also ~~ lived off Golders Green Road, 7+ years at Hendon County School. Is there some concealed implication in the very name of that no-longer-extant borough, I wonder?

~M~

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 06:08 AM

It's the 'sex' bit at the end of it....very titilating to 13 year old boys back then, so it seems....

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 06:39 AM

Ah, but as you say, Lizzie: it wasn't extreme sex; it was only middle sex.

(There is the old joke about kilted Highlanders marching thru some foreign city, and a bystander asking if they were the Middlesex Regiment.)

~M~

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 06:54 AM

I don't believe Middlesex was any different to many of the other home counties in those days. As Lizzie correctly states, there was none of the semi-pornographic media-generated stuff bombarding us, or sexy merchandise to buy ( if we had had the money, which we didn't!). As there were no TV's or computers etc we were very happy to read the Beano or Dandy comic (which I did, right up until I left home at eighteen) and listen to The Navy Lark or Educating Archie on the radio. I read a lot, mainly classics and even Enid Blyton (yes, as a teenager). Our teachers were a very correct and moral lot. Sex education was just biological, involving study of animals and then a 'period talk' by a nurse for us girls. I can honestly say we were happy and free, doing all the daft things youngsters do, climbing trees, playing at the farm up the road, piling onto one bike and wobbling around, riding bareback at the stables, going about on a pair of stilts. We all wore either baggy jodphurs smelling of horses or 'slacks' in thick twill, and polo neck jumpers knitted by our mums. In summer it was cotton skirts (long, not mini) a blouse and short white socks. I had a pony tail in an elastic band and kirby grips, and didn't care a pin what I looked like. My mum tried to keep us tidy. If all this is incredible to some people, I'm sorry, but it was exactly like that. And I wish with all my heart the youngsters of today could enjoy the same innocence for as long as we did. Sex is for much later, not while one is still an immature child.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 09:08 AM

Eliza,

All I can say is that you and your friends led a very much more sheltered life than did the people I associated with (and from what Richard, The Leveller and others have said, more sheltererd than theirs).

True, there wasn't the sexualisation in the media, or computers, but no TVs? I was from a distinctly working class background and we got our first TV in about 1960. I'd done with Enid Blyton by the time I was about 8, and I can't conceive of *any* of my contemporaries reading her into their teens, or even into double figures. We'd mostly done with the Beano or Dandy by the time we went to secondary school, but some people read The Eagle beyond primary school.

Our teachers were *mostly* very correct, but there was a coterie of young, more "bohemian" ones, who called us by our nicknames and tried to be "mates" with us. There were affairs between male teachers and 6th form girls, and, from what people like Joan Bakewell and other women journalists of a similar age have been writing in the media recently, this was far from uncommon, and tacitly accepted.

We were getting served in pubs (or the taller ones of us were, anyway) by 14 or 15, no problem. Landlords were more concerned back then with turnover than underage drinking. I remember on a school trip to Ambleside, a group of 13 year old girls from another school staying in the same youth hostel asking us to buy them some cider from a pub "off" sales (we were 14) and us all then sitting by the lakeside getting so bladdered that one of the girls wet herself.

Not sure if you were at a single sex school, but both my first "proper" girlfriend and I were at (different) mixed Grammars and the undercurrent of hormones and sex was there in both schools from early teens. There was snogging behind the bike sheds from a very early age and quite a lot of fumbling about.

At scout/guide jamoborees, despite heavy policing from the leaders and separate tent areas for scouts and guides, most tents spent at least part of the night "mixed" (we practiced our "woodcraft" in getting from male to female camping areas unobserved). I'd done with scouts at 15 so that was definitely early teens, and the girls were just as keen to mix the tents up as the boys were.

I'm not disbelieving your account, but can't help thinking you must have inhabited an enclave of 1940s attitudes while most of the rest of us were hurtling into the 60s at full speed!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 10:01 AM

Amen, Rob. I notice Eliza has given no dates despite my request. Perhaps her experiences (or, rather, absence of them) were in the 50s. It sounds much more likely.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Jim'll fuck it
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 10:31 AM

Richard, you know it's ungentlemanly to ask a lady her age -


errrmmm.. unless she looks young enough to be a chap's granddaughter
and he wants to stay off the sex offenders list.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 10:45 AM

Well I was quite prepared to believe in Eliza's enclave of good behaviour in Middlesex in the 60's till I had a bit of a think. It just can't be true that was a part of the home counties where there were "no TVs" in the 60's. I can credit she lived in a no TV household herself, but not that that was the cultural norm. Maybe in Amish teritory, but not in Middlesex. Even on Exmoor we had TVs in the 50's(to watch the coronation in 53, to be specific), never mind the 60's. I remember my uncle buying a TV in the early 60's, but he was laughing at himself for doing it so late in the day, long after everyone else had one.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 01:30 AM

She described a modest household and didn't have a television. That doesn't seem so incredible. My family in the US didn't get a televison until the early 1960s.

SRS

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 06:53 AM

Thank you SRS. No, we didn't have a TV. My father didn't want one. Many of my friends didn't either. A lady called Poppy down the road had one for her two small sons, and (very rarely) we watched the odd children's programme at teatime there, but only once in a blue moon. And yes we DID still enjoy the comics and I even read the Famous Five books today! Very comforting they are too. 'A sheltered life'? No, we weren't sheltered in the least, we went out in all weathers and all hours everywhere with no adult supervision at all. Most of the time our parents hadn't the least idea where we were. We got up to some dangerous and silly things too, like all children. And all my schools, primary and secondary were co-ed. The boys were as sport-mad as us, and we just didn't associate with eachother. They did their things and we did ours. It seems that true innocence like that is incredible to many of you. Well, what can I say? We weren't Amish or even terribly religious, just very ordinary. Even at Uni in Edinburgh, I spent a lot of my time studying of course, and working as a cleaner and a part-time Nanny for a Swiss family, horse-riding in the Pentland hills, ice-skating at Murrayfield and many activities with the Church and Folk Club. Still no sex!! I expect now there'll be yet more strident objections and disbelief. But it was so.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 20 Oct 12 - 01:42 PM

Still sounds more like the late 40s/ early 50s than the 60s to me. We too were out in all weathers with no supervision, but your memories really do sound more like those of a primary school child than something that persisted into late teens.

We too were very ordinary...there were one or two people in my school who seemed to lead very sheltered (not in the weather sense!) lives, but they were typically children of Salvation Army or other very strongly religious parents, and very much in the minority.

I can believe that non-association between boys and girls was the norm possibly up to age 13 or (pushing it) 14, but I do find it incredible that you say that it extended to late teens and even uni in your peer group. I suspecrt thwerer was stuff going on all around you thast you were unaware of!

I can't think of anyone I knew at uni except for 3 or 4 members of the Christian Union, who was still a virgin after the end of the first term.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 20 Oct 12 - 01:49 PM

Anyway, to get away from this interesting diversion and back to Savile, a quote from "Private Eye's" "Heir of Sorrows" column, dated December 1990:

....Jimmy Savile, a man who had devoted his life to the welfare of others, especially the young....Charles was bewitched by the great man's informality, charm and infectious enthusiasm. He leaned over and spoke earnestly to the newly en-knighted philanthropist.

"Fascinating, you really must meet Diana"

Sir James looked momentarilly puzzled. "Is that your daughter, your Maj?"

Charles shook his head. "No, no, my wife".

"No thank you very much your Maj. Bit old for me. That's not Jim's scene at all".

What could he mean? Sometimes these holy men spoke in riddles.....


Hmmmmm....

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 05:25 AM

Elsewhere Eliza speaks of going up to Edinburgh University in autumn 1967. Since I took a year out to work in industry before going up to Nottingham at the same time that makes her my age or slightly younger. I cannot envisage where she would have found the idyllic agrarian pre-consumer-society Middlesex of which she speaks in the mid-to-late 60s.

Middlesex was largely suburban by the 1930s, and indeed some parts were distinctly urban - Edmonton, Tottenham, Hornsey, Willesden, Acton, Brentford and Southall standing out in this respect.

Pinner was a noted hotbed of sophistication by the 60s. Remember (later) "the Sinner from Pinner" (actress Jane Marsh)? There was a distinctly sophisticated and cosmopolitan society in Stanmore, largely then concentrated on Stanmore and Canons Park synagogue. Nowadays Stanmore has overwhelmingly affluent Christian, Shia Muslim, Hindu, Jain, Jewish and Catholic communities, including its local Synagogue, Stanmore and Canons Park Synagogue on London Road (which has the largest membership of any single synagogue in Europe), an Islamic Centre, KSIMC Of London (Hujjat) and new Hindu Temple on Wood Lane.


Middlesex simply was not as Eliza depicted it. There may have been small enclaves of relative poverty, deprivation, and repression but that was not the norm.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 05:47 AM

Well, I give up! There's no more I can add. It was all exactly as I say, and I was indeed a virgin as were all (yes ALL) my friends right up until we all left the area for Uni or college, and after. My town was quite suburban but there were fields all around and a farm nearby.
I don't think I'll post any more, as it isn't very nice to be doubted.
I have my faults but lying isn't one of them.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 07:03 AM

As you know, Richard, I grew up in Pinner, lived there from when I was six months old until I was 27, when I moved all the way to Ruislip. My Dad worked in Edgware, just down the road from Stanmore, my ex-husband grew up in Willesden...so I know Middlesex very well.

I was born in the mid 50s and at no time was where I grew up a riotous place where couples were having sex on the street, in the park or even throwing their keys in, behind closed doors.

My teenage years were very happy, apart from my parents marriage going through hell when my mother imploded, probably in part due to the sexual abuse she had kept locked away inside her for so very long and which stayed there until she was around 60 years old when she suddenly spoke of it, as I've described above.

I went to the roughest school in the area and none of my friends had the kind of teenage years that you seem to remember either.

We'd spent hot summer days watching the cricket in the park, boys and girls together, talking about everything under the sun...Often we'd go to the park itself and while away the hours on the Witches Hat Roundabouts, the long swings and all the other things which older kids could also play on, unlike today's park for toddlers and little children only..

We'd play tennis, go swimming, go round to each other's houses for coffee, tea and chats, listen to music....Holidays shared with friends in the Lake District, with their parents too, beaches and laughter...

And Enid Blyton as well, Wind in the Willows, The Secret Garden, The Railway Children, Love Story and so much more...

I bought a compendium of The Twins At Mallory Towers a few years back, at a car boot sale and sat in the sun reconnecting with the characters Enid created...The Famous Five, The Secret Seven...and of course the books of Swallows & Amazons too, along with the films..

Happy days, surrounded by family and friends..

Older days of going to gigs with friends, where the boys still opened the doors for the girls, where we girls (and very few boys) EVER got drunk....and women rarely even walked into a pub on their own either, usually they were always with a group,which more often than not, was made up of boys and girls...

Our heads weren't filled with video horrors, or computer killing games..We dreamed of our future, knowing it was attainable, to get married, to have a home and a family..unlike so many young people today who feel they will NEVER have a home of their own or ever be able to support a family...just constant working in a world where there is no support for them in harsh times....

We didn't long to 'escape' from home, for home was home and we were happy there...Of course there WERE unhappy families, always have been, always will be, but in the main, most of my friends remained at home until they got married and very few went to University, unlike today where it's almost compulsory to assume that's where you go next on The Corporate Conveyer Belt of Life and Lunacy...

So, whether you choose to believe it or not, those days DID exist...and they existed for very many of us. Not all, I appreciate, but for the majority, back then..

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Lizz
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 07:08 AM

And yes, Pedantic Ones, I do know that Enid didn't write 'Swallows & Amazons' ;0)

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 08:13 AM

No, dear two Lizzies. I am not hallucinating (although many of us were)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swinging_London

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 08:17 AM

Well thank goodness for you Lizzie, cos at least one person now agrees that Middlesex was as I described. Your childhood days sound very similar to mine, and I well remember the playground things we enjoyed, including the witch's hat. I had a fat friend called Susan who got stuck going down the slide (aged about sixteen) We had to prise her off it. We were always climbing trees and securing a rope at the very top to swing on. Did you used to go 'over the top' on the swing? We did, standing up, I don't know how we didn't break our necks! And not a single thought of Sex in our heads.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Black Belt Caterpillar Wrestler
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 07:51 AM

HERO TO ZERO.
©R.S.Madge 2012

Hero to zero in twenty-four hours,
As the news blogs and tweets round the world.
Hero to zero and once he was ours,
As the tissue of lies is unfurled.
For once he was noble, once he was kind,
The ears they were deaf and the eyes they were blind.
Now they're digging for dirt and it's easy to find,
And it too late for justice to serve.

His headstone is shattered, his grave has no mark
And his family disown him for good.
The newspapers sink him downwards into the dark
Fool's gold vanished now as it should.
How often in history has this tale been told,
Of a hero debase when the real truth is told?
With the victims left sobbing outside in the cold.
And there's no way for justice to serve.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 08:54 AM

Excellent poem!
Watching the never-ending and terrible saga on the BBC News last night, I was squirming at the clips of Savile strutting about with his cigar, putting his arms round various youngsters. Yuk. In the end I just couldn't watch. He was so obviously a weirdo and no-one guessed except those who actually knew but winked, nudged and did nothing, and those he abused and assaulted. Heads will now roll! (I hope)

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 09:43 AM

Lizzie and Eliza - a sitcom about two nice girls in the swinging 60's
(another gentle , totally unfunny comedy probably by Carla Lane)

Scene One Lizzieand Liza's swinging groovy pad. Janis Ian's At Seventeen is playing on the radio. the television is on with the ound turned down - it is showing Ken Russell's film about Debussy, showing a girl doing a striptease to La mer. Outside the window is a Vietnam demonstration going on. The American flag is being burned.

Lizzie and Eliza are there obviously.

Lizzie; I say Eliza that Tony Blackburn doesn't half play some dreary music, what on earth is this one about?
Eliza; Oh its about this girl and she's frustrated..
Lizzie: I can't understand that, i'm never frustrated Except when homework's really hard, and i can't finish it before bedtime, or if they've run out of peardrops..
Lizzie: never mind, Blue peter's in abit - that will cheer us both up. Its like you say though, I never seen anyone frustrated in Middlesex.
Elize: Blue peter How super! Princess Anee is a special guest with her wizard new pony!
Lizzie: Yes and the funny little man with a dog is making things with toilet rolls
Eliza; (sighs) gosh! Its so much fun having so much freedom in this permissive society.

(Next week The Nice Girls visit a folk club)

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 10:40 AM

Progamme 2 At The Folk Club

Lizzie: Gosh what a lot of people here tonight!
Eliza: Yes, I'm going to feel a bit hot in my Girl Guide uniform!
Lizzie: Shall we get some lemonade? Should cool us down a bit.
Eliza: Ooh yes! Who's that person over there? I haven't seen him before, he looks a bit grumpy.
Lizzie: Oh, he's called Al. Don't talk to him, he doesn't believe a word you say. He thinks all girls our age are frustrated and repressed!
Eliza: What does frustrated mean Lizzie?
Lizzie: I think it means we aren't having sex.
Eliza: What's sex, Lizzie?
Lizzie: No idea. Now shut up, they're just about to sing Puff the Magic Dragon!
Eliza: Ooh goodie gumdrops!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 10:56 AM

Touche Eliza!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 11:39 AM

Nice one, Eliza. That was very funny!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 12:52 PM

Put it like that Eliza, you couldn't really blame Jimmy Saville for creeping up on you two, with his big cigar.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 01:37 PM

I've often wondered about that cigar Al. Was it do you think a Freudian symbol of his excited state? I don't feel he would've been particularly interested in folk clubs - not trendy enough!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 07:29 PM

No the cigar was a clue to the fact he was a big turd. It was symbolism.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 05:50 AM

LOL Al!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 08:38 AM

Seems Ted Heath was a good friend of Savile...

Seems also that The Houses of Parliament may soon become known as The Houses of Paediament....

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 08:58 AM

I've been aware of the allegations made about Edward Heath and his taste for "young boys" for some time. If so, the question being, was Heath simply a homosexual with a preference for youthful adult males or male children? Because there is a vast chasm between the two.

I wasn't aware of Heath's alleged links to Savile or the Jersey Haute de la Garenne children's home and the Belfast Kincora boys home, until more recently. I've also read his yacht "Morning Cloud" was dubbed "Morning Sickness" by bodyguards because of what allegedly took place on board.

Any of this stuff in Googleable, and there's no way of knowing if any of it is true, yet with this recent flood of revelations unfolding about Savile, his likely co-workers/co-abusers and seeming protection both by those in power in the BBC and a knowing but compliantly quiet press, the idea that Downing street could have housed a known paedophile or even a ring of abusers, becomes less and less an incredible notion.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,dawniedoody
Date: 28 Oct 12 - 12:25 PM

@ BobL...and I quote u sir..

"Seems to me (and those who actually knew him may of course correct me) that JS had a dreadful flaw in what was an otherwise caring nature.

A dreadful flaw..it was more than that it was a systematic abuse of his position on vulnerable young girls/boys when they could not stand up for them selves, like the children in the care homes, who were punished and locked in rooms for any disobedience and it turns out all these years later that those people had this dreadful flaw to....what u call a dreadful flaw, ruins lives, for all of that persons life...wether he was caring or not in every other aspect of his life he will be forever judged for being a peadophile because he was one, and even if it goes to court or not i know jimmy saville is guilty, maybe not of everyone who has come forward but definately of some of them and he deserves to have every good deed he ever did cancelled out, we know now he was doing those good deeds to cover for the fact that he was a wrong un...simple...a wrong un and i just hope that any more people with this dreadful flaw as u call it are taking notes and know that their time and ppl of their ilks time is drawing to an end, and hopefully soon there will be no corner in all the world were these dreadfully flawed people can hide!!!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 28 Oct 12 - 01:20 PM

How he must have hated it when young people started to voice their disatisfaction with the music that the old established Dj s of the time were giving airplay to. No wonder he devoted his time to charity work he had to be seen to be doing something, plus he was living quite comfortably too lets not forget, just by being an institution he could maintain a certain lifestyle.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Oct 12 - 02:14 PM

His nephew was on the BBC News last night, and while I do pity his very ashamed and stunned family, it's hard to believe that they didn't see that he was at the very least weird and strange. His nephew actually hoped that people would not forget his 'good side', but that's a vain hope IMO. If a man was a total monster regarding abuse of young people and children, you're hardly going to say, "But wasn't he a wonderful disc-jockey!" etc, are you? I expect even the Yorkshire Ripper was quite nice at home, but please...!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Jim'll fuck it
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 11:28 AM

or..

"Ok.. so hindsight has shown him to be a complete monster,
but we must never forget Hitler painted some rather nice pictures"

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 02:27 PM

Exactly! Very evil actions completely eclipse any other traits.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 02:34 PM

Intriguing. Historically things tend to go the other way, ie people may be remembered more for good(or possibly just impressive) deeds. Oscar Wilde has been forgiven his little boys. The sculptures of Eric Gill are still admired and displayed,in spite of his spectacularly irregular domestic arrangementrs. Henry V murdered countless children in the most repulsive way, but the play about his stirring deeds is regularly performed. Examples could be multiplied endlessly.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 07:44 PM

The necrophiliac and paedophile character ,Freddy Royle , in Irvine Welsh's book Ecstasy seems to have been based on Jimmy Savile.. Some passages from the 1996 work were quoted in the London Evening Standard last week :

"The thing was, Freddy brought millions of pounds into the place with his fund-raising activities. This brought kudos to the trustees, and made St Hubbin's Hospital a flagship for the arm's-length trusts from the NHS. All they had to do was keep schtumm and indulge Sir Freddy with the odd body."

"Freddy was finding it hard to maintain steady breathing. He examined the corpse. She's bain a roight pretty un n arl, he rasped in his Somerset drawl, - caar accident oi presumes?"

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 01:01 PM

mayomick, yeeeeeew!!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: vectis
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 07:50 PM

Paedophiles are very manipulative and clever when grooming children. It is possible that he chose to go about his charitable works precisely BECAUSE it gave him access to young and vulnerable (easy meat in those days, who would have believed them?)people.

The fact that he raised so much for charity may have been a lucky accident but it did make it much harder to knock him off his pedestal.

I am just glad my Mum is not alive to see what he was really about, for her and many others at the time he was almost considered to be a saint. He certainly isn't considered to be one now.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 09:03 PM

Jeremy "Vote Liberal or we'll shoot your dog" Thorpe seems to have been another politico with links to Savile that need explaining.

I wonder if this affair is going to stop in the UK. He seems to have had contacts all over the political spectrum in Ireland, high-up links in Israel and some links with the US that aren't all that clear yet (Elvis and Sen. Gary Hart, for two).

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 11:18 PM

500

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 05:37 AM

500

Hope that's the postings you're counting....

;>(>

Regards

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 05:40 AM

Witty!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 05:40 AM

On BBC TV News this morning, an ex-porter at Leeds Infirmary says he noticed Savile taking young girls to his Special Room (he had his own key) at about 2am until 5am. Now, why didn't this ex-porter go to the authorities about it? Maybe he was afraid of losing his job, or of not being believed. But it seems a bit thin, speaking out now!
(Congrats Richard on number 500!)

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 01:22 PM

It just weirder and weirder....

Theres this headline today ....why didn't someone tell the Queen?

Yes they might have let the parents in on it as well!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 01:28 PM

The man certainly had the luck of the Devil. Hundreds of people apparently 'knew' but not one blew the whistle. We must never again make such an idol out of a person in such a way that they can get away with untold evil without detection or confrontation.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 01:56 PM

The porter appears not to have begun working there till after the period he refers to and the hospital trust have confirmed what many know; that porters do not have keys to nurses residential blocks.

Bad enough with the truth without lying publicity seekers getting their names in the press.

I repeat. Without him being here to answer for his alleged crimes, folklore will sate the public need for scandal where facts run out of steam. A bit of a bugger when you try to learn from the events....

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 02:42 PM

Savile in Israel:

Jimmy Savile Came To My Batmitzvah

Methinks out of all the people named in that, most would only have known Savile at a celebrity-handshake level, but John Levy (of Friends of Israel) must have known what he was letting those Israeli kids in for.

Meanwhile:

recent article from the Jewish Chronicle

Which is a bit mystifying. The JC implies that some journalist had dug the dirt on Savile and sat on the story for reasons unknown, but it hadn't been them. Who do they mean? There aren't a lot of publications in the UK reporting on Jewish issues.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 06:13 PM

The witch hunt fantasies element seem to be getting stronger. Surely this whole Leeds hospital porter thing must be made up? Or can it be true? I don't know what to think. It's getting to be very reminiscent of the vast numbers of people in the middle ages(and considerably later) who claim to have had sex with the devil or angels. Or the habit in the 1950's and 60's of claiming you had been abducted into space ships and been experimented on sexually by aliens. How are we to assess these stories when there is no corroborative evidence?

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 08:48 PM

Savile's 4 million estate frozen by the bank.

This must be the first time I have started a thread that got to over 500. Sad that he turns out to be a very nasty person. Maybe that's why this thread has so many posts. Good old Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Savile :-( UK disc jockey
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 04:32 AM

Yes.. his £4,300,000 estate has been frozen in anticipation of the claims by his victims. I did predict this in an earlier post. The problem the powers that be have now is deciding who is telling the truth and who is telling lies..... and some will if they think they can get compensation. The saga goes on..but he has nothing to lose now eh?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 09:18 AM

Savile was not the only 'vile' one - the police are looking at three angles:

1/ Entirely Savile

2/ Savile and others

3/ Others

The cult of Freemasons is rumoured / alleged to be behind the numerous apparent cover-ups by the Police and other authorities.

The latest news is that the case files to the (alleged) male rape at Buck. Pal. by someone connected with the RF has just been re-opened.

And whilst you guys in the States think that this is a Brit. issue (or more likely pan-Europe), then watch this 'banned' Discovery (USA) / Channel 4 (UK) documentary on YouTube. This has only recently been tracked down in surviving clips of video-tape format. It has been pieced together as best as can be salvaged. IT IS HORRIFYING in its implications. It was pulled at the last minute. It has never been aired.

It has now been well-mirrored on YouTube to ensure maximum publicity.

"Conspiracy of Silence" (Banned Discovery Channel Documentary)

This stuff goes right to the heart and to the top (and I do mean TOP) of the respective UK and USA Governments and Society of the late 20th c. if not into the 21st c.

CJB

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: Fossil
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 06:30 PM

One of the more "interesting" (in the sense of thank-God-that's-over-now let's-go-for-a-pint)days was spent delivering a large, photgenic cheque for 1,000 UK pounds to Jimmy Savile at the Stoke Mandeville Hospital. By microlight aircraft. With me wearing a Santa suit and woolly beard. The cheque was the proceeds of a fund-raiser by the Southern Hang Gliding Club, in (I think, 1977)

It was a freezing cold day with snow on the ground and a turbulent northeasterly wind. My pilot was the famous Keith Reynolds, then British Hang-gliding league champion. The idea was to fly into the football field at the hospital and deliver the cheque in front of the waiting media.

Neither of us had seen the field until we arrived over it at about 1,000 feet. It was a daunting proposition. Not only was it covered in snow, but the goalposts were in situ, and a high railway embankment ran along one side of it and a large warehouse occupied one other side. It would be like landing at the bottom of a bucket.

I well remember flying up a road between two large buildings at below rooftop height. I remember Keith doing a heavily-banked turn some five feet above a car roof. I remember a high fence with barbed wire on the top of it passing some two feet below the microlight's wheels, then the engine noise dying away as we floated in to a perfect landing in the snow, diagonally between the goalposts.

And I remember handing the cheque to J.S. and then getting a tour of the hospital's spinal injuries facility - one of the most depressing places I have ever seen.

Pity that these memories, which I have always felt slightly proud of, should now be tarnished by the subsequent revelations of what J.S. was really like and what he was up to. I never saw him again, thank goodness.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: mayomick
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:51 AM

You are entitled to feel proud, Fossil . The shame should go where it belongs.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: Musket
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 06:40 AM

I wondered how long it would take for freemasonry to be in the frame. Why not add stamp collectors, train spotters and members of choral societies?

After all, none of them fit the bill where advertisers in newspapers are concerned when it comes to saying who is normal / likely to buy our product. I mentioned a while ago at a meeting that I had never watched Eastenders or Coronation St. It got back to me later that after I left, someone said I must be a bit strange...

Saville had things to answer for. He was typical sadly, of many people. The difference was access, not intent. Looking for systems letting people down which allowed him (and others) access is laudable, but stereotyping people as not being what newspapers consider "normal" is a slippery slope....

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 06:46 AM

Well, there are a lot of Freemasons in the police force..or...there used to be...

Lizze
Who once went to a Freemasons Dinner evening, as her friend's father was the head of the Lodge that year...I thought they were all weird, including her Dad..

Secret Societies hide Secrets - it ain't rocket science...

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 07:25 AM

Lizzie - why not sound off about something you know something about?

Oh, that's right, you can't because there isn't.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: Musket
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 10:54 AM

Yes Lizzie. There are a lot of people knocked over and killed by buses, and there are a lot of black people employed by bus companies.

zzzzzzzzzzz

Out of interest, a very good friend of mine who is a member of his local lodge once said, rather succinctly, that it is not a secret society but a society of people who can keep secrets. If anybody wants to know those secrets, they either risk having their hearts ripped from their bodies, or, alternatively, risk the hardship of a journey to their local library where you can borrow books with all their pseudo religious nonsense laid out for all to see.

Me? I'd possibly have a fit of the giggles when they ask you to roll up your trouser leg, so when I was approached, I politely declined. Although meeting up with mates for a drink and occasional meal is my idea of a good time. It's just the ritual balls before going through to the bar that would put me off. Also, I suspect most of my new friends would be the same boorish lot who make me think twice before taking up golf....

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 12:35 AM

Stuart Hall now....

makes you wonder about that Lord Reith.....

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 11:45 AM

I had a BBC contract to present six radio shows as a stand in for a staff presenter when he was in hospital back in the early '80s. How many years before my file gets opened?

After all, arrests seem to be based on BBC contracts for men.... if Hall, and now we hear Max Clifford, added to harassment charges against Dave Lee Travis and others, are all dodgy, then we risk losing the impact of deterring wicked crimes by branding far too many people in the Saville league.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 03:32 PM

I think that this thread should be restarted. After all it started out lauding JS, and then suddenly changed into damning him. We were all fooled by JS. Or if not - like 'ChildLine' promoter Esther Rantzen - we didn't say anything.

Anyway here's the latest goss.:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/pr-guru-max-clifford-arrested-on-suspicion-of-sexual-offences-8389889.html

And for those Googling for more - this is not the only website to name names:

http://www.ccs-rochford.co.uk/spivey/?p=7486

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 07:44 PM

And another of Thatcher's friends:

Eddy Shah

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 06:24 AM

Im sure the old bitch had many friends. What are you trying to say?

It just seems from your post that supporters of Conservative governments must all be paedophiles?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 07:34 AM

""It just seems from your post that supporters of Conservative governments must all be paedophiles?""

When it comes to these lefties, they just have a crying need to find reasons for hating anyone who thinks, or votes, in a way that they don't like.

It's just another form of religious fundamentalism.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 11:36 AM

I suppose actually the suspicion arises because right wing factions are very hot on personal freedom and dismiss security checks, like the policeman doing his job at Downing Street, as over zealous political correctness.

An really what other protection do children in care have, against predators.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 12:14 PM

I feel, with all these allegations about various elderly celebs surfacing, that one must be exceptionally aware of the phenomenon of *false memory syndrome*. Remember when there were some unsavoury allegations of parents abusing children some years ago, recollected from adulthood; and suddenly hundreds of people were remembering things their papas had done to them while bathing them when small, which were admitted upon investigation to have been more imaginative than factual, triggered off by these other tales they had been reading inducing 'recollections' of what had never actually happened.

So, a possibility I feel in this present thing. Allegations have been made about elderly, or recently dead, famous men; and perhaps some of the people reading them are saying to themselves, "Why, I met the famous Sir Whatname Who when he visited all those years ago when I was 10. And, goodness me, now I think of it, wasn't he perhaps a bit familiar? Should I blow the whistle about it after all this time, I wonder?"

Not saying this is what is happening in all these cases ~~ or even in any of them. But I do feel it a possibility that should be kept in mind.

~M~

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 12:29 PM

Statistically, it does seem odd that a linked series of police investigations throw up a set of names of various people who all happen to be well known to me(by name, if not in person). Would it not be more likely the the majority of them should be unfamiliar? As I mentioned earlier in this thread, in the middle ages and up to what one might term "the age of reason" peopel habitually claimed to have had sex with the devil, or with angels. In the 1950's and early 60's, with the spread of science fiction, people frequently claimed to have had sex with aliens. Now, all these 400 alleged victims may well have been coerced into having sex with famous celebrities, but it would be a good idea to check all the claims pretty carefully.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 06:29 AM

I suppose it is possible that others have been identified but not reported because no-one has heard of them.

Penny

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 07:31 AM

Al has a good point when he asks what vulnerable children have other than systems in place. I would add vulnerable adults to that list of course and from the work I do these days I would say the government paper No Secrets went a long way in getting statutory agencies to get a grip.   However, I don't think it is as straight forward as personal freedom versus Nanny state.

It is a mental leap too far to suggest promoting personal freedom is a factor in abuse. I inspect hospitals and residential care where safeguarding sits comfortably with promoting and respecting personal freedom and choice.   When it fails our published reports seem to have a thread of indifference by key staff and lack of supervision. I couldn't conclude that was due to right wing dogma and lack of regulation. Regulation finds existing failures, and those failures are hardly down to the political philosophy of the perpetrators. ..

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 12:30 PM

Worse and worse ...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jimmy-savile-probe-police-investigate-1481291

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 03:13 AM

It is hard to believe that JS got away with it for so long but it can. I can remember something similar in my own school in the late 60s early 70s two teachers were up to no good they called it 'after school tuition' we knew it was going on but it was put down to playground rumours or a misunderstanding. Then in the late 90s one of the teachers had the whistle blown on him concerning a 14 year who wasn't so afraid to come forward about it and finally was brought to book about it and he was charged thankfully but it took all that time of not being listened to so I can see unfortunately how it could have happened.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 08:26 AM

The worst thing was a few of the teachers who the girls confided in would advise them to concentrate on their future careers lives and forget all about whatever happened at school. I can only imagine that the kids involved with JS possibly were advised something similar.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 12:10 PM

JS was hiding in 'plain siight' - he was so powerful no-one dared do anything about what he was doing.

http://psalm79.com/2012/10/29/hiding-in-plain-sight/

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 02:07 PM

I think - at least in the past - there was some kind of assumption that "kids bounce back" when confronted with traumatic experiences. I recall one family member telling me so, and my reply being "Yeah, kids bounce back.. as broken adults" which is pretty much true for a number of my own family members.

That said, I think it must also be said that not ALL children are traumatised by challenging events in their lives, some do indeed bounce back. But it all depends upon a complex combination of native or inherited resilience (as opposed to native lack of same), the psychological severity of the experience (while wrong, not all forms of what we would consider 'abuse' are necessarily also 'traumatic') and the strength of childhood environmental supports - physical, emotional & psychological (or indeed lack of them).

In any case, in the bad old days when adults didn't like to think about such things (or indeed the good old days to some, who like to imagine that Enid Blyton idylls were universal for all children until child abuse was invented sometime during the 1980's), children were forced to either shut-up and put-up and hopefully bounce back, or be branded as disgusting fantasists and trouble makers. Personally, I'm exceedingly glad that things are changing and abuse is no longer too taboo to talk about. Still, with the ongoing Saville & co revelations, and indeed the exposure of the Northern grooming gangs epidemic, it's a huge reminder of how deep such taboos continue to be.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 07:39 PM

I don't think the "bad old days" were always like you describe. When I was about 10-11, around 1960, in New Zealand, I went to yoga classes led by a guy who was also a scoutmaster and a sunday school teacher. We kids had pretty good idea what his interest in leading all those activities was, confirmed by him getting a two-year prison stretch for indecent assault on a child. I don't know what the incident that got him locked up was, but the stuff we could observe (like peering inside kids' shorts while adjusting their postures in headstands) was more comical than threatening. It was no big unspeakable secret, anyway.

He was in fact a very good yoga teacher.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 04:09 PM

secret societies are not good,that includes freemasons

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 07:09 PM

Worse and worse ...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jimmy-savile-probe-police-investigate-1481291

Dirty Den ... ?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 07:21 AM

The Savile Inquiry Report is here - no cover up then ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20782889