In a session do you need the exact tune?

Subject: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 11:26 AM

I occasionaly play tunes on both anglo concertina, piano accordion and whistle. No, not at the same time - Cut that out! Anyway - I play none very well but I toyed with the idea of seeing if I could keep up with a session. I had a bit of success in the comfort of my own room with the BBC session but I did find that, because I picked up bits and pieces by ear, I often play my own 'version'.

Would that be an issue in live session. I don't think I am taking anything from the metre or 'meaning' of the tune. More like the odd harmony with the note that should be there or occasional gaps where notes should be. For that reason I could never lead a session but would anyone complain if I didn't play the way wot the tune was writ?

The only time I play 'en masse' is with the band for the Abram day of dance and, yes, I do exactly the same on the Abram Circle Dance tune. No-one seems to mind there but maybe it is because they are all too nice.

Any helpful comment greatley appreciated. Non-helpful ones that give us a laugh are welcome too :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 11:31 AM

You don't need the exact tune, Dave. If you can hear what you are playing is clashing with what the others are playing, I'd stop but minor variations of the tunes are played together all the time.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 11:37 AM

DtG: You know the line 'effum' if they can't take a joke. IF people don't invite you back, then you have tabooed yourself out the door. However, I have it on very good authority that you'd have been more than welcome in Bob Copper's club. He felt it an obligation, duty and honour to keep his family's songs alive, but he was never precious about other people doing their music in his club.

When you're with other musicians, and if they give you a 'look' then back off a bit. Keep in mind that good sessions involve as much listening as playing, maybe even more. Gi'e it a try and see. And best wishes to you that it's successful and fun.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 11:38 AM

I think there are often "local" versions of tunes which become accepted by the people who play them regularly together - little stuff like minor variations of melody, and sometimes major stuff like a totally different key!

Jon's comment seems apt to me - play what you know and, if it fits with the rest, carry on. I think tunes are just as subject to the "folk process" as songs, that some variation will inevitably happen.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 11:44 AM

ARe session players really listening?

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 11:50 AM

Dave - As far as I an concerned there is nothing more boring than half a room of people playing EXACTLY the same notes. They don't do it in orchestras where REAL musicians live.
Or to put it another way, different instruments can play particular patterns of notes easily whereas on a different instrument the same combination can be a very awkward fingering. Tin whistles add trills and rolls which are almost impossible on a fiddle, a melodeon or 5-string banjo.
If you know what to look for, and analyse something such as O'Neils Music of Ireland it soon becomes obvious that some tunes were collected from a fiddle player, and others from tin whistle. You can tell the difference from the style of ornamentation.
The outcome of this is that any tune consists of a basic melody line, which people have then added frills that suit their instrument, and perhaps a "regional style" of playing them.
What happens in sessions is often taken back to a simpler version, then the "flash players" either speed it up, or add their own decorations.
As long as you play notes where they appear in the "basic" version, you will fit in. If you play chords or notes that appear in the accompanying chords, you will likewise fit in. If you know how to do it, you can play bass runs, or countermelodies, and you will make the overall sound of the tune better by filling spaces in the overall sound.
Personally, I often like to play rhythmical stuff, that make the tunes more interesting to me.

All in all, it's just a session.
Nobody's listening...
AND Unless you are playing Highland Pipes NOBODY CAN HEAR YOU...

Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Marje
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 01:03 PM

When I was starting out playing meleodeon, an experienced player said to me that a melodeon could make "a useful noise" without necessarily playing all the notes. I found that a very constructive idea. With a new sesson tune, I (still) often begin by noodling quietly with chords first, and then adding melody notes. Melodeon has the inbuilt advantage that if you hit the button next to the right one in the melody, it's likely to harmonise with the note you were actually fumbling for, so it rarely sounds very wrong.

I do try to listen carefully to the overall sound and try to ensure I'm not actually making it any worse, but on the whole I think that even when I haven't got the whole tune fluent, I can make a "useful noise".

I'm sure an anglo concertina can fit in in the same way; an accordion might do, but take care, because if played with all the stops in (or out or whatever applies) an accordion can effectively block the bandwidth for other reed instruments, making them inaudible, so you really need to know what you're doing, or else limit the sound produced by making it thinner and "drier". A whistle can be surprisingly prominent above heavier instruments, and can sound awful if it's wrong, but if you can devise a harmony or ornamentation, that can sound magical - another type of "useful noise".

Marje

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 01:32 PM

I don't really do sessions, but I do accompaniment by sort of feeling for notes (or timings) that fit. Sometimes I get it right.

As for evolving tunes - well, that's the folk process, innit bro?

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 01:37 PM

Unless it's a recently composed tune, there is no definitive version "the way the tune wos writ". Variants crop up between different players, and then as now many musicians wouldn't play a tune the same way twice anyway.

I'd worry less about playing the "correct" version, because there isn't one. However you do need to be sure that what you're playing fits in with what the rest of the session is playing. The key to playing in sessions is to listen to what the other musicians are doing. Don't bash on with your version if everyone else is playing a different version. This doesn't mean stop playing, just back off a bit where the versions differ, and if they really clash then just pause or play chords until you can get back on track.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 02:00 PM

Dave, you are most welcome down The Beech, M21 9EG, anytime at all but especially on 1st & 3rd Wednedays for songs and 2nd & 4th Wednedays for tunes.

We will shortly be moving our tune book from 82 to 101 tunes. I think most of us are busking like mad but we do have the dots on the table for those who can use them.

Like most of the others have said few old tunes have only one version and playing sensitively is what everybody has to do - so no change there.

I can send you the tune book in pdfs and ABC Explorer- just pm me you e-mail of you think it would help

L in C#

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 05:46 PM

As I actually started playing seriously (I DONT count the Military Pipe band as Serious) in Jazz , when I got turned on to Folk I always tended to improvise round the melody line , especially on whistle and never had any adverse comments . The Chord Structure and Rhythm is far more important in tunes sessions than being rigidly on the melody line !

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 06:41 PM

'The Chord Structure and Rhythm is far more important in tunes sessions than being rigidly on the melody line ! '

I think that depends a lot on the type of session you frequent and the sort of music they're playing.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Guernsey Pete
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 08:14 PM

A tune session is not a jam session, as found in the jazz world.
I think we should draw a distinction between those who are genuinely trying to play the tune, and there are usually acceptable limits to how far off the tune you can get before it's no longer the tune, and those who are making up something else, that doesn't really go with the tune, and are thus a detriment to the session. In this latter category I would include guitarists and other chord players who think anything goes, and any more than one of any rhythmic instrument. Single guitarists who know what they're doing are fine, guitarists who think they only have to learn one chord progression and they know what they're doing are NOT fine.
There is a story of the late Peter Bellamy throwing a tune session out of a bar at the Norwich Folk Festival ( where did that go ? ) to make way for a song session, crying out as he did "You've only been playing one tune for the last two hours anyway" by way of justification. Not true, sir !

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: treewind
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 04:04 AM

If I'm in a session where somebody starts a tune I know and plays it differently from the way I know it, I try to follow their version. I'f I'm leading a tune, I expect to be allowed to play it my way.

Some tunes come in two or three well defined variants, and when a point of difference is approaching I'll stop playing if necessary, to find out which they are playing.

I'm inclined to agree with Guernsey Pete about numbers of guitarists and rhythm instruments: one of each is quite enough unless they are all clever musicians.

Improvising and harmonizing are an entirely different matter - I do lots of that, especially harmony parts, as long as the tune is being carried strongly enough by other players.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 04:39 AM

As Peter says, it depends on the type of music and the culture of the session.

Some Irish tune sessions in particular are very rigid, and you're expected to play the tune their way - if it's a tune you don't know, rather than joining in by ear you're expected to go away and learn it, and not join in until you've got it right.

English music sessions, on the other hand, tend to be more relaxed, and playing about with melody and rhythm is encouraged.

Both approaches have their strengths and weaknesses. The former produces some very tight and well-played music, perhaps at the expense of some spontaneity. The latter can produce some amazing music from the right group of musicians, but can also go horribly wrong!

It should go without saying that you must adopt the approach of the particular session you're playing in.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 04:55 AM

I was playing guitar and mandolin at the Bull in Ditchling last night, in a monthly session run by a couple of fellow band members. Ours is a very eclectic session - a solid body of good traditional tunes from Great Britain, France and many other places, plus whatever anyone feels like doing. The standard of musicianship is high - and the welcome for new faces and for shy beginners is equally high.

As it happens, there are usually very few guitars at the session - I'm the main guitarist, have a pretty good ear - and those others that turn up tend to watch my fingers and follow suit. It's a good way to learn and, let me assure you, two ordinary guitars will get lost when playing with: 1 serpent; 5 fiddles; 1 hammer dulcimer; 1 melodeon; 1 concertina; 1 mandolin; 2 accordions...

The axiom that more than 1 chordal instrument is detrimental to a session is dubious. What are all those melodeon players doing with their left hands - holding a pint of bitter? Got someone playing a harmony (they're not banned are they...) - then watch out, there's a chord about! What matters above all, as others have said above, is using your ear - listen, listen, listen.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 05:26 AM

I usually prefer just the one guitar player. There are so many ways that can work and not all go together. This applies to chords and rhythm.

Here is a clip with one of the players from round here I really like in a session. She plays a very simple looking (almost never up the neck) but very effective with lots of changes standard tuning finger style. In this session, she sort of takes responsibility for the rhythm and the melody players can pick out what they need from her playing easily. I know there is only 3 flutes and 3 fiddles in this clip but there can be pipes, banjo and button accordion in.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 05:28 AM

I'm always a bit surprised if I start a tune and lots of people dive right in. My version is likely to be just that, my version, so I would expect them to listen out for the first A and B at least.

I usually am able to pick up bits of a tune as long as I can hear it. A lot of chord players ( or drums ) make this difficult. Actually, its not the number but how close they are to you and how loud. I like the idea of no accompanyment first time through until the tune is established.

Will - what a nice picture I have in my mind. Playing my melodeon, drink in one hand, attempting the tune, and having a conversation at the same time.   Skill or what?
FloraG

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 05:48 AM

Playing music together is one of the most cooperative of human experiences. It has to be if it is work.

You wouldn't always think so when people don't say who they are, ask who anybody else is, say what the tune is and sometimes play it so fast that it still isn't clear what the tune is.

What do those people who think one guitar is enough do when the second guitarist arrives?

We try, I trust in a natural friendly, way to avoid the above - please let us know when we fail.

Brilliant night last Wednesday: Banjo: Chris, Fiddles: Dave B, Ishbel, Kate, Mary Rose Rochford Merritt, Pete, Guitar: Ken Deeks, Guitaron: Phil Robinson, Uke: Julie Bryce, Hammered Dulcimer: Tom, Mandolins & Mandolas: Liam Markham, Kieran Markham, Glynne Davies, Ant, Brian, Percussion: Gordon, Mickey Van Gelder, Squeezers: Ged Gaskell, Rosie Bryce, Joe Brownbridge, Ted Kemp, Whistles: Janet, Steve, Jenn, and Ursula

How much joy can we have in a small room in a pub?

Come on down Dave!

L in C#

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 06:00 AM

What do those people who think one guitar is enough do when the second guitarist arrives?

While I might usually prefer just the one, I usually think that's a matter for the guitarists...

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 06:30 AM

So, the second guitarist arrives, counts the fiddles, two , squeezes three, and whistles, two, then the gutarist - one and goes home?

L in C#

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,blogward
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 06:39 AM

No, just the right key.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 06:40 AM

One would hope the guitar player would be aware that some instruments (I think fiddles are the best for this btw) blend in together more easily than others and that the numbers of each instrument can reflect this.

The guitar player might also be aware that some sessions do have a sort of regular resident guitar player.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 06:49 AM

Two people above imply that in a session nobody is listening. If people are playing at a sesson and not listening then they shouldn't be in the session. If you want to do your own thing go off and do it on your own Dont F**k things up for others.

Hoot

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 06:54 AM

(But Les, in case there is a misunderstanding. I'm stating an "in general" personal preference and commenting on how some sessions work. I'm in no way suggesting all sessions should work in a particular way. a) I don't believe that and b) I like the different feels, etc. Not all will be for me or me for them but I think having the variety and choice is a good thing)

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 07:38 AM

seem to have messed my link up above

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 07:39 AM

Interesting point Jon. Most sessions are in a public place and gather people by chance. It's hard to see how they can be selective about who plays and who doesn't.

Many posts and Mudcat have complained about Bod players with no sense of rhythm and it's a fair point. Equally tune players in some sessions:

"don't say who they are, ask who anybody else is, say what the tune is and sometimes play it so fast that it still isn't clear what the tune is".

Back to sensitivity and remembering that sessins are a cooperatve human experience not a competitive race through tunes

L in C#

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 07:54 AM

Most sessions are in a public place and gather people by chance.

While you might not know who is going to be there each session, a fair number will have a well established regular "core". In one of the sessions I sometimes go to, some of the core have been playing together around 30 years.

It's hard to see how they can be selective about who plays and who doesn't.

Probably nothing on a one off appearance but a number of sessions do have "unwritten rules" and some do have ways of making a person feel welcome or otherwise...

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Musket
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 09:06 AM

If you are playing a tune in a session, there is a chance others will join in and in that sense, a no surprises technique such as being faithful to the tune could have advantages. But if it's your turn in the barrel, then it's up to the rest of us to anticipate and accommodate. (I find that fun in itself when accompanying others.)

Compare that to singing a well known song, be it traditional or otherwise. I try to ensure my take on a song is personalised to me rather than faithful to a score. It might be small changes, but done on purpose to satisfy the part of me that in a small way would be chuffed if somebody referred to the "Ian Mather" version.

Not that I get to be chuffed much, but there you go!

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 10:46 AM

The fact people play in a public place does not mean it's a free for all. I would never presume to be welcome to join when I see people I don't know play 'a session'. It's just not right to barge in a sit down like you own the place. Certainly never expect to be made welcome if you're going to bring the level of proceedings down.

The 'it's just a session, nobody is listening anyway' is just an appalling bit of attitude, if you're not playing for the people around you, at least play for your own enjoyment and listen to eachother to produce something coherent and pleasing. If you just want to be in the same room as other people and make noises, maybe invite some friends over to your home but don't take that out to spoil other people's night out.

There's nothing wrong with not playing all the time when at a session. If you don't know the tune, maybe shut it for a moment and listen. Ditto if you have nothing to add to the mix.

That's my take on it anyway.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 11:10 AM

xlnt point:

"play for your own enjoyment and listen to each other to produce something coherent and pleasing"

I have stood on the edge of sessions for years, never good enough to join in. Then I went to a "Beginners Session" at Whitby and a number of them at Shrewsbury.

The main differences between all the other sessions and the Beginners? Tunes in dots and ABC Explorer beforehand and on the day, a warm welcome and people put at ease, names and informalities swapped, starting very slow and lots of repeats.

The result? Beginners moving to Improvers here at The Beech, 45 people have joined us, 20+ most times and an Ceilidh Band of 30.

I feel sure all the other sessions have similar successes but I have to say many have scared most of us away.

L in C#

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Bernard
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 11:14 AM

That's just the 'prickly' attitude that deters some people from joining in... I've unwittingly been at the wrong end of it a couple of times, and I make damn sure I'm not guilty of it when I run a session, or a Singers Night at the folk club.

Agreed there have to be rules of etiquette, but there's a right way and a wrong way to apply them. Making people feel uncomfortable is the wrong way - from both sides.

Politeness and courtesy, please...

Even when someone barges in and makes a nuisance of themselves, give them the benefit of the doubt and gently show them the way your session runs. Yes, there will be times when it doesn't work out, but remember not to destroy the very atmosphere you are trying to maintain...

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Bernard
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 11:15 AM

Sorry, Les, not you...!

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 11:26 AM

[grumble about people who:]
"don't say who they are, ask who anybody else is, say what the tune is and sometimes play it so fast that it still isn't clear what the tune is".

Agreed that 1,2 and 4 are a bad idea. Saying what the tune is doesn't happen all that often in sessions I go to, and it doesn't help a lot when somebody does announce that in advance. (In Irish sessions, half the time people won't have a name for it anyway). Announcing the key can be helpful to people who play diatonic instruments, but mainly in a rather negative way ("G minor, forget it") - it doesn't really tell a guitarist enough to make up an accompaniment on the fly.

In a beginners' session where people use sheet music, yes you do have to say what the tune is, and allow five minutes for them to find the damn thing in their unindexed heaps of paper. If they vaguely know the tune, I'd much rather they tried to noodle their way towards it, with all the inevitable mistakes, than do that.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 01:09 PM

Thanks Uncle Bernard we are clearly at one with this. And out of respect we will play your polka most weeks.

As for playing off the dots we do it every tunes session at the Beech because we started as a "Beginners Session" I suspect most of us either can't read dots or simply use them as a guide.

I think two groups that have found the dots really helpful are our whistle and recorder players whom I suspect learned off the dots at school and passing RNCM students who simply drop in and play tunes they have never seen before.

Are we playing in the style of Scan Tester or Walter and Daisy or The Boat Band? Clearly not but one thing that has become very clear over the past 10 years or so: thousands and thousands of tunes have survived as dots to be discovered in old collections by Johnny Adams at Salford, Matt Seattle in Newcastle and lots of other people all over the place.

Great danger of drift here so I will return to the central point: many of us find it very difficult to sit in a session and pick up tunes we have seldom heard. And to those people who can, smile and say hello, say who you are and slow down a bit, nobody can dance that fast.

L in C#

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 01:33 PM

I will return to the central point: many of us find it very difficult to sit in a session and pick up tunes we have seldom heard. And to those people who can, smile and say hello, say who you are and slow down a bit, nobody can dance that fast.

I know it's difficult and I rarely pick up a jig or reel that way (although if a tune is played often enough, you can sort of absorb it or most of it) but I don't think you can expect a session to slow down. People don't always know the names of the tunes but sometimes you will get the name of a tune if you ask.

Also, at least the sessions I go to are happy with people recording tunes to learn them. The clip I gave earlier was one I made for exactly that reason. These days with affordable digital recorders and free computer software that can slow recordings down without altering the pitch, you can easily make use of what you grab in the session...

That said, bear in mind some sessions have huge repertoires and it can be a while before the tune you went away and learned comes round again.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 03:08 PM

Thanks all - genuinely very much appreciated. Hope to see you in the near future Les.

DtG

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 03:43 PM

We keep a seet warm Dave

Les

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 05:40 PM

Do flute players get a free pass on this? I must say some do not tend to play the tunes, anything that harmonizes with the tune, anything that goes with the tune. If they are surrounded by accordians and bagpipes (i.e. drowned out) it is OK..but especially when they decide to "accompany" singing with totally random notes..it drives me crazy. mg

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 06:02 PM

The flute players I know round here all play the melody. One of them is a (uilleann) piper btw and I'm pretty sure another has a set of (possibly Northumbrian) pipes...

I think accompanying singers is a different subject but where I have been to tune sessions where there is the occasional song, the usual rule is you give the singer their hush and you don't accompany unless asked (or otherwise know they want it).

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 06:46 PM

Well, around here (western U.S.) some were probably encouraged to be free spirits when younger and think their improvisations add to the beauty of the music...I am sure it does to them and probably others but it hurts my ears. mg

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 06:53 PM

I'm not the only guitarist at the CeilidhSoc sessions (and I'm the second for sure), but I can lead 2 tunes.

I make a point of being the "Listen, someone's started a tune, shut up" guitarist, and the other guitarist makes awesome sounds and makes me jealous. Then I continue drinking and everything is fine.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Don't hug trees
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 04:53 AM

The problem is some that folk seem to think of a session as a particular thing, often a free for all. All sessions are different. IMO the session belongs to the regulars, what they make it that's what it is. The OP could go to any beginners session I'd imagine but certainly in most good sessions sheet music, noodling when you don't know the tune and making "helpful noises" will really cheese of the regulars. If you want to play at anything other than a beginners session learn the music and learn the tunes.

No, it's not snobbery. All sessions aren't a free for all.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 06:01 AM

If your intent was to scare away potential tune players you are doing a great job Mr/Ms GUEST.

"learn the music and learn the tunes" All of them? Tell us what they are - no - almost no one does that do they?

So at one extreme we have the "free for all" - probably mythical but I think we can call that one end. At the other end the private session in a non-public room with entrance restricted to the regulars?

Most sessions are nearer the middle asking the regulars to be welcoming and newbies to be sensitive.

Is it worth remembering that we are talking about a group of human beings gathering in a public place to play country dance tunes that have survived for hundreds of years both in dots and in the fingers, minds and instruments of ordinary people?

L in C#

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 06:21 AM

Most sessions are nearer the middle asking the regulars to be welcoming and newbies to be sensitive.

I'm honestly not sure about the first part although I will agree with the second part. I wouldn't have thought it uncommon for the burden to be on the newcomer to gently establish him/her self.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 06:51 AM

Tell us what they are - no - almost no one does that do they?

Most sessions, depending on the type of music they cater for, will have a shared core repertoire. And yes, if you want to play tunes you'll have to learn them. As many as you can.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: oggie
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 07:19 AM

"Most sessions, depending on the type of music they cater for, will have a shared core repertoire"

Maybe in one area but if you travel round the country a bit you find that the core tunes are radically different.

Steve

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 10:27 AM

You may well be right Pete:

"Most sessions, depending on the type of music they cater for, will have a shared core repertoire"

Really, maybe your right I don't know. How big is that core? We have around 100 in our tune book and that barely scratches the surface of the number of tunes currently available.


"And yes, if you want to play tunes you'll have to learn them. As many as you can"

Clearly true, if you don't learn 'em you can't play 'em. But at the risk of repeating myself to death: in my experience tunes are not often named, sessions don't have dots, newbies are not made welcome and tunes are played fast.

I sat in the Beginners/Improvers Sessions at Shrewsbury with around 100 other people, playing almost every type of instrument and some I have never seen, it was a joyous liberation. Dots and ABC Explorer and some video from the net beforehand, dots on table for for those who could use them, most people playing from memory.

Maybe loads of sessions do what Lewes do - publish a tune book and encourage and support newbies, if so xlnt

L in C#

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 10:35 AM

Alan Day and I are running the tunes session (by invitation) in the John Harvey Tavern in Lewes this evening. We'll lead off with whatever nonsense we want to, and then I'm sure some of the 250+ tunes from the Lewes Tunebooks will get a good beating up!

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 11:27 AM

One of the interesting unforeseen consequences of the Lewes Favourites Tune Book was that a number of people were spurred to play stuff that specifically wasn't in the book with a result that the local repertoire has vastly increased.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 11:37 AM

Variations on tunes are simply the inevitable part and parcel of being human.

I'm always surprised that more musicians don't improvise a bit more - play harmony lines etc - in sessions. Especially when a tune's being repeated to death!

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 11:44 AM

That said, I've got annoyed once or twice when I've learned a tune from someone or, more often, a book, and it's been so different it is almost unrecognisable from the tune everybody else plays.

I've had this most recently with the tune Constant Billy, as learned it from Robin Williamson's book English, Welsh, Scottish & Irish Fiddle tunes.

Does anyone else have this book? The A part of Williamson's Constant Billy is nothing like anyone else's. (The B part is about right though.) While Williamson's version is a nice enough tune, I did wonder where on earth he got it from.

It's as if he just made up the first part, but it's presented in the book as if it is THE tune, a standard. You'd get a lot of funny looks if you played it at a session.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 12:39 PM

I think one or two other of Williamson's tunes - can't remember titles offhand - are peculiar variants from the norm. It's been noted on other forums like the Mandolin Café.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Marje
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 01:30 PM

I would hope that most sessions would welcome new players and not expect them to sit on the edge observing without daring to join in. I run a mainly-English session, and used to run another one in a different area. In both cases I and other players would look out for newcomers bearing anything that looked like an instrument, and invite them to join in. If they are hesitant, someone will usually ask whether they have a tune they'd like to lead. If they can't play anything, as happened at the last session I attended, we'll tell them the names of some of the tunes (if they ask and seem interested) and suggest which are the ones we play regularly, so they can go away and do some homework.

We don't think the session "belongs" to us, it's open to anyone who can contribute, even at a very basic level. And to get back to the original question, you do NOT need to be playing every note of a tune - as long as what you play is compatible with what the others are playing, that's fine. For instance, playing just the first note of each bar or phrase is a start, and the rest may follow in time.

Having said that, I don't think it's reasonable to ask the regulars to slow down for beginners, or to expect them to try to follow a player who can't play fluently enough to make the tune recognisable and keep it moving along steadily. Beginners need to learn by listening and blending in, as well as by practising in privacy, and if they can do this most sessions will welcome them.

I'm pretty sure my attitude is typical of most English and mixed sessions, at least. I hope some of the offputting remarks in earlier posts will not deter inexperienced players from having a go.

Marje

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 01:34 PM

Good comments there, Marje. Just one from me - at one of our regular sessions, we sometimes start a tune off quite slowly if we know there are beginners, and then very slowly bring it up to the usual speed. So they and we get the best of both worlds: they get to play it slowly and we get to play it as usual. Actually, really slowing a tune down can be good for you - shows up mistakes in melody lines and in rhythm!

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Don't hug trees
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 01:44 PM

"If your intent was to scare away potential tune players you are doing a great job Mr/Ms GUEST."
No, Les in Chorlton, that's not what my post said. You're missing the point - that sessions are not identikit. If you know a handful of tunes poorly then then are plenty of sessions that will welcome you but there are also a multitude of sessions where you'll be tolerated while at the same time be doing peoples heads in. Potential tune players should find a beginners session where possible.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 01:49 PM

I would hope that most sessions would welcome new players and not expect them to sit on the edge observing without daring to join in.

I don't know where sitting on the edge without daring to join in comes from but if you are refering to my

"I wouldn't have thought it uncommon for the burden to be on the newcomer to gently establish him/her self."

I mean you are not always going to get the regulars saying "hello and introducing themselves" types of welcome. Also while in no way meaning one has to sit silently without joining in, by gently I mean that if you sort of musically announce your presence loudly and give the impression you feel you are God' gift to musicians, you probably will have started things off on the wrong footing.

I hope some of the offputting remarks in earlier posts will not deter inexperienced players from having a go.

Personally I'd rather have people aware that certain sessions can take time to fit into, that by no means all cater for beginners etc. and make suggestions as to how they might help themselves both with learning tunes and to avoid making initial first impression mistakes than pretend sessions (English or Irish) are always all sweetness and welcome from first visit.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:17 PM

I feel this thread is reaching a familiar point here abouts where most things have been said a number of times and people who post late don't have time to read the other essentails wittings that I have bored the *rse of people with.

Marge says it all for me. You are all welcome at The Beech M21 9EG

L in C#

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:18 PM

Sorry I should have said this earlier if you want our tune book as dots in pdf or ABC Explorer PM me with your e-mail and I will send it on

Cheers

L in C#

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:25 PM

Marje has it right for me as well.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:29 PM

So are we saying that there are not a good number of sessions that don't work as Marje says?

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:00 PM

BTW, I doubt very much anyone here would want it but I'll make the offer all the same.

I've got an abc project setup at folkinfo. If anyone wanted to use it for making their session abc collections available, they are welcome. All I need is a plain text file (or maybe files is there is a long list and it would be better to split say by jigs, reels, etc. containing the abcs.

From that, the file or pdf can be downloaded like this

And idividual tunes can be downloaded like this

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:36 PM

Jon, you have quite a number of tunes that date old Carolan's life 1630-1738.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:56 PM

I'm not following you there. They are the dates given in web sites I've just looked at. Anyway, if you eplain further, I'll pass the comments on to Jackie. (It's her project and I don't have anything to do with the text file).

--
Btw. Have just changed the project detail page (for individual tunes). It can now send them straight to the abc converter where they can be transposed of have some types of tab added.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:57 PM

One further point which needs making - unless it's described as being for beginners or improvers, a session is not a workshop. Most will do their best to welcome newcomers and help them to fit in, but if you can't keep up or don't know the tunes, then I'm afraid you're going to have to keep practicing. You wouldn't turn up at a sporting event with little or no experience of that sport and expect to be picked for the first team, so why expect to be able to keep up with experienced musicians in a session?

Full marks to Les for what they've done at the Beech to create an environment where novices can build up their repertoire and their confidence. However most sessions are for (more or less) competent musicians. I'm sorry if that sounds elitist, but remember all those musicians were once beginners too; they achieved the standard they're at now through hard work and practice, and by sitting in on sessions trying to improve their skills and their repertoire.

Although its not their main purpose, you can learn a lot from sessions, however if your playing isn't yet up to the required standard you have to be careful not to intrude. Play quietly (not easy on some instruments!) and try to keep the rhythm even if it means missing out the tricky bits. You'll find in time you can manage more of the tune. Playing along and talking to the other musicians is a great way to develop. Most sessions are welcoming and most musicians are glad to help with advice, and to encourage nervous beginners. But don't expect the whole session to alter just to accommodate you.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 04:28 PM

I don't think it's reasonable to ask the regulars to slow down for beginners, or to expect them to try to follow a player who can't play fluently enough to make the tune recognisable and keep it moving along steadily.

I wouldn't often slow down much, but I do quite frequently cope with the second one. It's one particular player who is never going to get any better - brain damage - but is very committed to the music. The tune comes out pretty wobbly but I can work out what it is, so I play along on a somewhat quieter instrument and pull the tempo into something steadier. Eventually other people catch on and join in, and the result can move from a shaky start to something that sounds pretty good.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 04:39 PM

'I'm not following you there. They are the dates given in web sites I've just looked at.'

Sorry Jon, it was a bit tongue in cheek. Obviously he didn't live to 108. Most of the files had it right : 1670-1738. Obviously a typo crept in and was copied/pasted a good few times.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 04:47 PM

Thanks, Pete. Clearly I need a new pair of glasses! I'll pass it on to Jackie.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 04:05 AM

Thanks for those links Jon, they look really useful

Les

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 04:40 AM

Well it's one way of making an abc collection available to others.

At the moment, I think the thing it's most lacking is some sort of interface so a user (I think it would have to be a member to give me a bit of control) could create and maintain their own project rather than me having to be emailed abc files but I'm not sure when I'll get round to that.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 04:50 AM

You could try places like box.net Box provides storage and downloads for free and has the option of collaborations where several users can access files and work on them. I find it very useful to post soundfiles too.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 05:22 AM

Sounds good and collaborations, useful.

Depending on what you want, the possible advantage or otherwise something like the abc projects page has is that the only file(s) that needs "uploading" / changing is the abc file. pdfs, midis, etc. are created on demand from that.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 11:15 AM

lets face it, a selection from Gilbert and Sullivan fits in with most things.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 12:00 PM

The exact tune? Well, here are some extra notes from Richard Thompson...

Alastair Anderson, Richard Thompson & Kathryn Tickell

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 12:03 PM

Hmm. I quite like bits of G&S. I even prefer it to some "folk songs" but I don't think it would go down well in the sessions I go to.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 03:01 PM

I was at that concert, Will. An excellent evening.

Three fine musicians each complementing the others.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 03:07 PM

Lucky man! What a wonderful array of talent and what exuberant playing!

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 12:21 PM

Just noting our abc projects can now be created and maintained by members. The owner/creator can assign other members as global editors who can edit all abc within the project.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST, V2
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 12:55 PM

Well, I'm not a session player. But I do know that not all session players - even ones on this thread - practice the tenets here preached.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 05:39 PM

In some sessions I've been exposed to being in exact tune was not required.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 07:51 PM

That'd be the ones with banjos?

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 09:56 PM

Electronic clip on tuners have reduced the problem of being 'In Tune'
And at ANY session the MOST important thing to have is an EAR !
LISTEN to what is happening
My 'local' session starts with a half Hour of regular tunes played SLOWLY , before we get up to speed , so we have a few people who turn up for the Beginners session , then either stick around and get familiarised , or leave to go home and practice !

And the WHOLE point of a session is to hear tunes you dont know and try to learn them - Its NOT an Ego Trip . OR a Workshop - its suppose to be FUN !!!!

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Nov 11 - 01:56 AM

I was joking about Gilbert and Sullivan.

Tell you what, isn't it great when you find a chord, or sequence of notes that really gives definition, or puts a different slant on a tune?

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 11 - 04:57 AM

Well I'm not sure of that but I think the choice of chords and style of guitar player can have a noticeable effect on the overall feel of the session but I suppose to a lesser degree everyone playing puts puts in a bit of this too. The two Irish sessions in Norwich for example have a different base of regulars and the sessions have quite a different feel to them.

Round here, not that I've seen him in a session in ages, I might mention Adrian Lever on guitar. I find he often can come up with "somethings" (don't ask me what he does) that get me thinking "wow what was that, where did it come from?" - unusual and unexpected guitar bits that work well,.

The really, really great to me though are the (rare to me anyway) occasions where a session goes up to that special notch where everyone is just sort as one being swept along by the music.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 05:01 AM

Electronic clip on tuners have reduced the problem of being 'In Tune'

Not totally. Some fixed- tuning instruments are subtly off standard pitch, and if everybody tunes to A440, they don't blend well. It's always best to listen carefully and adjust to what you hear.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 05:14 AM

If you're a string player playing with free-reed players, then you have to adjust tuning - they can't!

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 05:37 AM

I agree about tuning to Free Reed , bt by the same token , owners of Free reed instruments should try and get them to conform to normal pitch , though I DO know that can be an expensive operation !

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 06:06 AM

Our band melodeon player came from a holiday in France this summer and apologised in advance at our monthly session - his whole box had gone slightly flat! We blamed the garlic, cheese and wine - and then tuned to him...

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 06:16 AM

Then of course there is the problem of the "wetness" or otherwise of the squeezebox.

Guitarist "Give me an "A""

Melodeon player "Pharp"

Guitarist "For fox sake, only one!"

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 07:19 AM

Ah Richard, the old Thomas Beecham story in another guise.

Beecham is said to have asked a famous oboe player to give the orchestra an "A". It was duly played and Tommy turned to the musicians saying, "Gentlemen - take your pick".

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 07:26 AM

Electronic clip on tuners have reduced the problem of being 'In Tune'
Not totally. Some fixed- tuning instruments are subtly off standard pitch

So are some tuners. And some not subtly.