In a session do you need the exact tune?

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 11:37 AM

Variations on tunes are simply the inevitable part and parcel of being human.

I'm always surprised that more musicians don't improvise a bit more - play harmony lines etc - in sessions. Especially when a tune's being repeated to death!

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 11:44 AM

That said, I've got annoyed once or twice when I've learned a tune from someone or, more often, a book, and it's been so different it is almost unrecognisable from the tune everybody else plays.

I've had this most recently with the tune Constant Billy, as learned it from Robin Williamson's book English, Welsh, Scottish & Irish Fiddle tunes.

Does anyone else have this book? The A part of Williamson's Constant Billy is nothing like anyone else's. (The B part is about right though.) While Williamson's version is a nice enough tune, I did wonder where on earth he got it from.

It's as if he just made up the first part, but it's presented in the book as if it is THE tune, a standard. You'd get a lot of funny looks if you played it at a session.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 12:39 PM

I think one or two other of Williamson's tunes - can't remember titles offhand - are peculiar variants from the norm. It's been noted on other forums like the Mandolin Café.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Marje
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 01:30 PM

I would hope that most sessions would welcome new players and not expect them to sit on the edge observing without daring to join in. I run a mainly-English session, and used to run another one in a different area. In both cases I and other players would look out for newcomers bearing anything that looked like an instrument, and invite them to join in. If they are hesitant, someone will usually ask whether they have a tune they'd like to lead. If they can't play anything, as happened at the last session I attended, we'll tell them the names of some of the tunes (if they ask and seem interested) and suggest which are the ones we play regularly, so they can go away and do some homework.

We don't think the session "belongs" to us, it's open to anyone who can contribute, even at a very basic level. And to get back to the original question, you do NOT need to be playing every note of a tune - as long as what you play is compatible with what the others are playing, that's fine. For instance, playing just the first note of each bar or phrase is a start, and the rest may follow in time.

Having said that, I don't think it's reasonable to ask the regulars to slow down for beginners, or to expect them to try to follow a player who can't play fluently enough to make the tune recognisable and keep it moving along steadily. Beginners need to learn by listening and blending in, as well as by practising in privacy, and if they can do this most sessions will welcome them.

I'm pretty sure my attitude is typical of most English and mixed sessions, at least. I hope some of the offputting remarks in earlier posts will not deter inexperienced players from having a go.

Marje

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 01:34 PM

Good comments there, Marje. Just one from me - at one of our regular sessions, we sometimes start a tune off quite slowly if we know there are beginners, and then very slowly bring it up to the usual speed. So they and we get the best of both worlds: they get to play it slowly and we get to play it as usual. Actually, really slowing a tune down can be good for you - shows up mistakes in melody lines and in rhythm!

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Don't hug trees
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 01:44 PM

"If your intent was to scare away potential tune players you are doing a great job Mr/Ms GUEST."
No, Les in Chorlton, that's not what my post said. You're missing the point - that sessions are not identikit. If you know a handful of tunes poorly then then are plenty of sessions that will welcome you but there are also a multitude of sessions where you'll be tolerated while at the same time be doing peoples heads in. Potential tune players should find a beginners session where possible.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 01:49 PM

I would hope that most sessions would welcome new players and not expect them to sit on the edge observing without daring to join in.

I don't know where sitting on the edge without daring to join in comes from but if you are refering to my

"I wouldn't have thought it uncommon for the burden to be on the newcomer to gently establish him/her self."

I mean you are not always going to get the regulars saying "hello and introducing themselves" types of welcome. Also while in no way meaning one has to sit silently without joining in, by gently I mean that if you sort of musically announce your presence loudly and give the impression you feel you are God' gift to musicians, you probably will have started things off on the wrong footing.

I hope some of the offputting remarks in earlier posts will not deter inexperienced players from having a go.

Personally I'd rather have people aware that certain sessions can take time to fit into, that by no means all cater for beginners etc. and make suggestions as to how they might help themselves both with learning tunes and to avoid making initial first impression mistakes than pretend sessions (English or Irish) are always all sweetness and welcome from first visit.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:17 PM

I feel this thread is reaching a familiar point here abouts where most things have been said a number of times and people who post late don't have time to read the other essentails wittings that I have bored the *rse of people with.

Marge says it all for me. You are all welcome at The Beech M21 9EG

L in C#

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:18 PM

Sorry I should have said this earlier if you want our tune book as dots in pdf or ABC Explorer PM me with your e-mail and I will send it on

Cheers

L in C#

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:25 PM

Marje has it right for me as well.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:29 PM

So are we saying that there are not a good number of sessions that don't work as Marje says?

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:00 PM

BTW, I doubt very much anyone here would want it but I'll make the offer all the same.

I've got an abc project setup at folkinfo. If anyone wanted to use it for making their session abc collections available, they are welcome. All I need is a plain text file (or maybe files is there is a long list and it would be better to split say by jigs, reels, etc. containing the abcs.

From that, the file or pdf can be downloaded like this

And idividual tunes can be downloaded like this

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:36 PM

Jon, you have quite a number of tunes that date old Carolan's life 1630-1738.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:56 PM

I'm not following you there. They are the dates given in web sites I've just looked at. Anyway, if you eplain further, I'll pass the comments on to Jackie. (It's her project and I don't have anything to do with the text file).

--
Btw. Have just changed the project detail page (for individual tunes). It can now send them straight to the abc converter where they can be transposed of have some types of tab added.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:57 PM

One further point which needs making - unless it's described as being for beginners or improvers, a session is not a workshop. Most will do their best to welcome newcomers and help them to fit in, but if you can't keep up or don't know the tunes, then I'm afraid you're going to have to keep practicing. You wouldn't turn up at a sporting event with little or no experience of that sport and expect to be picked for the first team, so why expect to be able to keep up with experienced musicians in a session?

Full marks to Les for what they've done at the Beech to create an environment where novices can build up their repertoire and their confidence. However most sessions are for (more or less) competent musicians. I'm sorry if that sounds elitist, but remember all those musicians were once beginners too; they achieved the standard they're at now through hard work and practice, and by sitting in on sessions trying to improve their skills and their repertoire.

Although its not their main purpose, you can learn a lot from sessions, however if your playing isn't yet up to the required standard you have to be careful not to intrude. Play quietly (not easy on some instruments!) and try to keep the rhythm even if it means missing out the tricky bits. You'll find in time you can manage more of the tune. Playing along and talking to the other musicians is a great way to develop. Most sessions are welcoming and most musicians are glad to help with advice, and to encourage nervous beginners. But don't expect the whole session to alter just to accommodate you.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 04:28 PM

I don't think it's reasonable to ask the regulars to slow down for beginners, or to expect them to try to follow a player who can't play fluently enough to make the tune recognisable and keep it moving along steadily.

I wouldn't often slow down much, but I do quite frequently cope with the second one. It's one particular player who is never going to get any better - brain damage - but is very committed to the music. The tune comes out pretty wobbly but I can work out what it is, so I play along on a somewhat quieter instrument and pull the tempo into something steadier. Eventually other people catch on and join in, and the result can move from a shaky start to something that sounds pretty good.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 04:39 PM

'I'm not following you there. They are the dates given in web sites I've just looked at.'

Sorry Jon, it was a bit tongue in cheek. Obviously he didn't live to 108. Most of the files had it right : 1670-1738. Obviously a typo crept in and was copied/pasted a good few times.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 04:47 PM

Thanks, Pete. Clearly I need a new pair of glasses! I'll pass it on to Jackie.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 04:05 AM

Thanks for those links Jon, they look really useful

Les

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 04:40 AM

Well it's one way of making an abc collection available to others.

At the moment, I think the thing it's most lacking is some sort of interface so a user (I think it would have to be a member to give me a bit of control) could create and maintain their own project rather than me having to be emailed abc files but I'm not sure when I'll get round to that.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 04:50 AM

You could try places like box.net Box provides storage and downloads for free and has the option of collaborations where several users can access files and work on them. I find it very useful to post soundfiles too.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 05:22 AM

Sounds good and collaborations, useful.

Depending on what you want, the possible advantage or otherwise something like the abc projects page has is that the only file(s) that needs "uploading" / changing is the abc file. pdfs, midis, etc. are created on demand from that.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 11:15 AM

lets face it, a selection from Gilbert and Sullivan fits in with most things.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 12:00 PM

The exact tune? Well, here are some extra notes from Richard Thompson...

Alastair Anderson, Richard Thompson & Kathryn Tickell

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 12:03 PM

Hmm. I quite like bits of G&S. I even prefer it to some "folk songs" but I don't think it would go down well in the sessions I go to.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 03:01 PM

I was at that concert, Will. An excellent evening.

Three fine musicians each complementing the others.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 03:07 PM

Lucky man! What a wonderful array of talent and what exuberant playing!

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 12:21 PM

Just noting our abc projects can now be created and maintained by members. The owner/creator can assign other members as global editors who can edit all abc within the project.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST, V2
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 12:55 PM

Well, I'm not a session player. But I do know that not all session players - even ones on this thread - practice the tenets here preached.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 05:39 PM

In some sessions I've been exposed to being in exact tune was not required.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 07:51 PM

That'd be the ones with banjos?

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 09:56 PM

Electronic clip on tuners have reduced the problem of being 'In Tune'
And at ANY session the MOST important thing to have is an EAR !
LISTEN to what is happening
My 'local' session starts with a half Hour of regular tunes played SLOWLY , before we get up to speed , so we have a few people who turn up for the Beginners session , then either stick around and get familiarised , or leave to go home and practice !

And the WHOLE point of a session is to hear tunes you dont know and try to learn them - Its NOT an Ego Trip . OR a Workshop - its suppose to be FUN !!!!

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Nov 11 - 01:56 AM

I was joking about Gilbert and Sullivan.

Tell you what, isn't it great when you find a chord, or sequence of notes that really gives definition, or puts a different slant on a tune?

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 11 - 04:57 AM

Well I'm not sure of that but I think the choice of chords and style of guitar player can have a noticeable effect on the overall feel of the session but I suppose to a lesser degree everyone playing puts puts in a bit of this too. The two Irish sessions in Norwich for example have a different base of regulars and the sessions have quite a different feel to them.

Round here, not that I've seen him in a session in ages, I might mention Adrian Lever on guitar. I find he often can come up with "somethings" (don't ask me what he does) that get me thinking "wow what was that, where did it come from?" - unusual and unexpected guitar bits that work well,.

The really, really great to me though are the (rare to me anyway) occasions where a session goes up to that special notch where everyone is just sort as one being swept along by the music.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 05:01 AM

Electronic clip on tuners have reduced the problem of being 'In Tune'

Not totally. Some fixed- tuning instruments are subtly off standard pitch, and if everybody tunes to A440, they don't blend well. It's always best to listen carefully and adjust to what you hear.

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 05:14 AM

If you're a string player playing with free-reed players, then you have to adjust tuning - they can't!

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 05:37 AM

I agree about tuning to Free Reed , bt by the same token , owners of Free reed instruments should try and get them to conform to normal pitch , though I DO know that can be an expensive operation !

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 06:06 AM

Our band melodeon player came from a holiday in France this summer and apologised in advance at our monthly session - his whole box had gone slightly flat! We blamed the garlic, cheese and wine - and then tuned to him...

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 06:16 AM

Then of course there is the problem of the "wetness" or otherwise of the squeezebox.

Guitarist "Give me an "A""

Melodeon player "Pharp"

Guitarist "For fox sake, only one!"

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 07:19 AM

Ah Richard, the old Thomas Beecham story in another guise.

Beecham is said to have asked a famous oboe player to give the orchestra an "A". It was duly played and Tommy turned to the musicians saying, "Gentlemen - take your pick".

Subject: RE: In a session do you need the exact tune?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 07:26 AM

Electronic clip on tuners have reduced the problem of being 'In Tune'
Not totally. Some fixed- tuning instruments are subtly off standard pitch

So are some tuners. And some not subtly.